WEBVTT - The Illegal Number

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to tech Stuff, a production from I Heart Radio.

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<v Speaker 1>Hey there, and welcome to tech Stuff. I'm your host,

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<v Speaker 1>Jonathan Strickland. I'm an executive producer with I Heart Radio

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<v Speaker 1>and how the tech are you. I've been getting some

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<v Speaker 1>requests on Twitter as well as the talk back feature

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<v Speaker 1>that's in the I Heart Radio app under the tech

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<v Speaker 1>Stuff podcast label. More on that at the end of

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<v Speaker 1>the episode, and I wanted to start tackling some of

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<v Speaker 1>those requests this week. We also will have a special

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<v Speaker 1>episode coming up a bit later this week, so it's

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<v Speaker 1>gonna be a little different from a normal tech Stuff week.

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<v Speaker 1>That will actually carry over next week in a bit

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<v Speaker 1>beyond as well, because I'm going to take a short

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<v Speaker 1>vacation from work. But I'm trying to record stuff in

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<v Speaker 1>advance to at least cover some of that so that

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<v Speaker 1>it's not all reruns. Anyway, let's get to the request

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<v Speaker 1>for today's episode. Now, today's episode comes to us courtesy

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<v Speaker 1>of the Gregorlis on Twitter, who asks, quote, could you

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<v Speaker 1>do a tech Stuff tidbit episode about the illegal number?

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<v Speaker 1>End quote? And yes I can. The Gregorlis. Now, first

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<v Speaker 1>I should say there's not just one illegal number. Not

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<v Speaker 1>if we follow the logic, and I use the term

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<v Speaker 1>loosely about what makes a specific number illegal. There is

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<v Speaker 1>a particular number referred to as the illegal number, and

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<v Speaker 1>I'll explain that as well. I will not be saying

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<v Speaker 1>that number, not because I fear reprisal. It's not that

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<v Speaker 1>I'm worried that the Feds are gonna kick down my door.

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<v Speaker 1>It's because the illegal number is a one thousand, four

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<v Speaker 1>hundred one digit number. And by the time I would

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<v Speaker 1>finish saying it, we be well into Tuesday. So this

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<v Speaker 1>topic ties into some other stuff I've been talking about

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<v Speaker 1>in recent episodes. And to understand how a number can

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<v Speaker 1>be illegal, we have to cover a few different concepts.

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<v Speaker 1>Some of those concepts deal with technology, uh, some deal

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<v Speaker 1>with politics, and some deal with business. And as you

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<v Speaker 1>might imagine, the last two categories there, politics and business

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<v Speaker 1>have a great deal over of overlap because we're talking

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<v Speaker 1>about the United States in particular. Also, you could overlay

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<v Speaker 1>the word stupid or at least absurd over those two.

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<v Speaker 1>All right, I'm gonna cover the political and business stuff

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<v Speaker 1>first because this ties into the specific case of the

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<v Speaker 1>illegal number. So back in here in the United States,

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<v Speaker 1>then President Bill Clinton signed into law the Digital Millennium

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<v Speaker 1>Copyright Act, or d m c A. The d m

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<v Speaker 1>c A in turn incorporated two World Intellectual Property Organization

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<v Speaker 1>or wi BO treaties UH. These were the WIPO Copyright

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<v Speaker 1>Treaty and the WIPEO Performances and Phonograms Treaty, both of

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<v Speaker 1>which had very similar language in them. Now, WHIPO itself

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<v Speaker 1>is an international organization that is part of the United Nations,

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<v Speaker 1>and it has been since nineteen seventy four. The purpose

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<v Speaker 1>of WIPO is to create international agreement on certain aspects

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<v Speaker 1>of copyright so that the created works enjoy copyright protection

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<v Speaker 1>across borders, though the extent of that protection and the

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<v Speaker 1>penalties incurred by those who ignore it are largely up

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<v Speaker 1>to each individual country's government, so enforcement and everything that's

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<v Speaker 1>not covered in the treaty just that these are the

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<v Speaker 1>basic concepts that we want to make sure countries across

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<v Speaker 1>the world agree on. So the d m c A

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<v Speaker 1>is America's version of adhering to the rules established by

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<v Speaker 1>those two WIPO treaties. The protections in the d m

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<v Speaker 1>c A stem from those treaties, but the actual wording

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<v Speaker 1>and implementation are uniquely American. UH. The d m c

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<v Speaker 1>A also has other stuff that wasn't directly covered by WIPO.

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<v Speaker 1>For example, under Title five of the d m c A, UH,

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<v Speaker 1>there was a new form of protection created for quote

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<v Speaker 1>the design of vessel hulls end quote as in boats

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<v Speaker 1>and a dooming boats because the update to the Copyright

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<v Speaker 1>Code only applies to boat hole designs with holes that

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<v Speaker 1>are no longer than two hundred feet. So yeah, this

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<v Speaker 1>update got real specific. But never mind that we're not

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<v Speaker 1>here to talk about boats. I'll say that for some

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<v Speaker 1>future episode. The part we need to focus on is

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<v Speaker 1>the bit that created section twelve oh one one hundred

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<v Speaker 1>one to Title seventeen of the US Code. That section covers, quote,

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<v Speaker 1>the obligation to provide adequate and effective protection against circumvention

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<v Speaker 1>of technological measures used by copyright owners to protect their

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<v Speaker 1>works end quote, or as we typically think about it,

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<v Speaker 1>digital rights management or DRM. Now, a lot of people,

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<v Speaker 1>including myself, have oversimplified the intent of this piece of

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<v Speaker 1>legislation to say that this protection means it's illegal to

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<v Speaker 1>get around DRM, which means that while you are within

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<v Speaker 1>your rights here in the United States to make a

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<v Speaker 1>backup copy of a work for your personal use, whether

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<v Speaker 1>it's a digital music file or some software or a book.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, it can be a physical thing. It doesn't

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<v Speaker 1>have to be digital. Whatever it is. You are allowed

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<v Speaker 1>to make a personal copy for your own backup purposes

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<v Speaker 1>as long as that's all it's for. But you are

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<v Speaker 1>not allowed to circumvent DRM in order to do it,

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<v Speaker 1>which is kind of like saying the stuff that's inside

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<v Speaker 1>this locked safe is yours, and you can do whatever

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<v Speaker 1>you want with the stuff that's in this safe. You

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<v Speaker 1>can copy it as many times as you like, but

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<v Speaker 1>you're not allowed to open the safe to get at it. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>that analogy isn't perfect, because you can still use DRM

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<v Speaker 1>to material, but there can be some limitations depending on

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<v Speaker 1>the implementation of DRM. But I think it gets the

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<v Speaker 1>idea of the issue across well. The d m c

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<v Speaker 1>A gets a bit more nuanced than just that. It's

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<v Speaker 1>actually a little more complicated, though in practice it doesn't

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<v Speaker 1>end up mattering very much. See, the d m c

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<v Speaker 1>A actually differentiates between measures that control the access to

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<v Speaker 1>a copyrighted work and measures that prevent unauthorized copying of

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<v Speaker 1>a copyrighted work. So, if you were making a personal

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<v Speaker 1>backup copy of a copyrighted work that is legitimate, it's

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<v Speaker 1>a type of fair use. So if the technological prevention

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<v Speaker 1>of copying is all it's stopping you from making a copy,

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<v Speaker 1>it's okay to circumvent that protection, assuming the copy you

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<v Speaker 1>make is legitimate under the umbrella fair use. So if

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<v Speaker 1>you were archiving, say a piece of software, and the

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<v Speaker 1>only thing stopping you was an anti copy piece of technology,

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<v Speaker 1>there's no legal issue getting around it. However, if the

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<v Speaker 1>DRM controls access to the copyrighted work, it's a different story.

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<v Speaker 1>The d m c A is clear about that is

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<v Speaker 1>illegal to circumvent or develop tools meant to circumvent DRM

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<v Speaker 1>that controls access to a work. Well, here's the real problem.

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<v Speaker 1>The way companies use DRM is tied directly to access. Yes,

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<v Speaker 1>copying is part of that, but it's a sub part.

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<v Speaker 1>So trying to get around it so that you can

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<v Speaker 1>make your personal copy also means having to get around

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<v Speaker 1>the access part, and that's illegal. Let's consider the DRM

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<v Speaker 1>that Apple used to use on digital music files. They

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<v Speaker 1>don't use it anymore, but they used to use a

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<v Speaker 1>system called fair Play. Apple was strong armed into developing

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<v Speaker 1>fair Play by the major music labels of the time,

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<v Speaker 1>the DRM put a limit on how many devices would

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<v Speaker 1>be allowed to access any given digital file. That would

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<v Speaker 1>prevent the unauthorized distribution of digital songs that were downloaded

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<v Speaker 1>from Apple's store, because you would very quickly hit the

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<v Speaker 1>small limit of devices that would be allowed to access

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<v Speaker 1>the file, and creating or using a tool to strip

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<v Speaker 1>those files of that protection would be against the law

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<v Speaker 1>because of the d m c A. Now, there are

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<v Speaker 1>a few other exceptions to the d m c A

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<v Speaker 1>that would allow folks to get around DRM and it

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<v Speaker 1>wouldn't be illegal, but those are extremely limited in scope.

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<v Speaker 1>For example, a nonprofit library would be allowed to circumvent

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<v Speaker 1>DRM on some software, for instance, only for the purposes

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<v Speaker 1>of evaluating the copyrighted software if the library were considering

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<v Speaker 1>obtaining a legit copy for itself. So, in other words,

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<v Speaker 1>this nonprofit library is saying, we're thinking about getting this,

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<v Speaker 1>but we don't know yet. We want to evaluate it.

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<v Speaker 1>We don't own a copy of it, so we have

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<v Speaker 1>to use this method to circumvent DRM to evaluate the copy.

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<v Speaker 1>That would be okay under those very specific circumstances. Security

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<v Speaker 1>companies could circumvent DRM for the purposes of testing computer

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<v Speaker 1>and network security and there are a few other exceptions,

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<v Speaker 1>but they're all very limited and they have specific criteria

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<v Speaker 1>that have to be met in order for it to

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<v Speaker 1>pass muster. So we arrived at a point where, because

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<v Speaker 1>of the technological protection overlaid on top of some copyrighted works,

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<v Speaker 1>US citizens were denied the rights to create personal backup

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<v Speaker 1>copies as is permitted under fair use, which is pretty absurd. Right,

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<v Speaker 1>you're allowed to do this thing, only there's a lock

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<v Speaker 1>that prevents you from doing that thing, and it's illegal

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<v Speaker 1>to get rid of the lock. So you're effectively saying

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<v Speaker 1>it's illegal for me to make a backup, and and

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<v Speaker 1>the court would say, oh no, no, it's perfectly legal

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<v Speaker 1>for you to make a backup. You just can't break

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<v Speaker 1>the lock that prevents you from making a backup to

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<v Speaker 1>make a backup. But if you can make a backup

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<v Speaker 1>without getting around or breaking the lock, you're good to go. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>that's patently absurd. You cannot do those things. It's the

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<v Speaker 1>sort of situation you would expect to encounter in a

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<v Speaker 1>a novel like Catch twenty two. Now companies were thrilled,

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<v Speaker 1>right like the big music labels were thrilled. Movie and

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<v Speaker 1>television studios were thrilled, publishers were thrilled. Organizations like the

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<v Speaker 1>Electronic Frontier Foundation were not thrilled. Also, while the measures

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<v Speaker 1>were intended to curb piracy, uh that largely failed. Piracy

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<v Speaker 1>was still running rampant, and in fact, there was a

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<v Speaker 1>pretty strong argument that the pirates were ending up with

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<v Speaker 1>better versions of the copyrighted works because their versions didn't

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<v Speaker 1>have all that pesky DRM attached to them. They had

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<v Speaker 1>stripped it out, and DRM could cause other problems like

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<v Speaker 1>for legit users, your DRM could actually interfere with your

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<v Speaker 1>access to material you had fairly and legally purchased. So

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<v Speaker 1>legitimate customers who did not remove their DRM had inferior

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<v Speaker 1>versions of the works that the pirates were enjoying. The

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<v Speaker 1>d m c A did, however, give big software and

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<v Speaker 1>media companies the equivalent of an enormous cannon They could

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<v Speaker 1>point at people who were found or suspected to be

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<v Speaker 1>downloading material without permission to do so. So they fueled

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of incredibly disproportionate lawsuits against people, and it

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<v Speaker 1>did not win the industry any favors. Anyway, we're gonna

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<v Speaker 1>pivot in a second. We're gonna come back to the

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<v Speaker 1>d m c A and DRM toward the end of

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<v Speaker 1>this episode because it will play a pivotal role in

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<v Speaker 1>the creation of the concept of the illegal number. First,

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<v Speaker 1>we're gonna take a quick break, and when we come back,

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<v Speaker 1>we're gonna talk about abstraction. We're back, and it's time

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<v Speaker 1>for us to talk about computer languages and machine language.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a good jumping off point for the concept of abstraction. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm sure you all know that when you really get

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<v Speaker 1>down to the hardware level of what's going on inside

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<v Speaker 1>a computer, all the information passing through the system is

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<v Speaker 1>in machine code a k A binary that's zeros and

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<v Speaker 1>ones bits. In other words, machines use zeros and ones

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<v Speaker 1>to represent anything and everything, and we can use zeros

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<v Speaker 1>and ones to represent different types of stuff. We just

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<v Speaker 1>need to gather enough zeros and ones to be able

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<v Speaker 1>to do it. So a collection of eight binary digits

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<v Speaker 1>is a bite. Eight bits is a bite. That's something

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<v Speaker 1>we arrived at after a lot of back and forth

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<v Speaker 1>in the computer industry. But there's no need to rehash

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<v Speaker 1>all of that right now. With eight binary digits, you

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<v Speaker 1>can represent up to two hundred fifty six different values

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<v Speaker 1>or two to the power of eight. We have two

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<v Speaker 1>possible states zero and one, and we have eight total

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<v Speaker 1>binary digits, so it's two to the power of eight.

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<v Speaker 1>With eight binary digits, we could designate different letters and figures.

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<v Speaker 1>For example, the letter A and binary is zero one

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<v Speaker 1>zero zero zero zero zero one. The letter Z in

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<v Speaker 1>binary is zero one zero one one zero one zero.

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<v Speaker 1>And yes, it sounds like I'm singing robots by Fly

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<v Speaker 1>of the concords, but that's how we could designate A

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<v Speaker 1>and Z in binary. Now you've probably already noticed that

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<v Speaker 1>using binary would be far too clunky for humans. We

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<v Speaker 1>would quickly get lost while trying to spell a simple word,

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<v Speaker 1>let alone create complex instructions for a computer to follow.

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<v Speaker 1>For that reason, we have different ways or abstractions to

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<v Speaker 1>deal with machine languages. Programming languages are an example. With

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<v Speaker 1>programming languages, we can use formats that humans can read,

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<v Speaker 1>some we can read more easily than others, and machines

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<v Speaker 1>cannot read. These not natively programming languages that aren't far

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<v Speaker 1>removed from the struction set that's used by the machine itself.

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<v Speaker 1>Those are called low level languages. Assembly, or sometimes as

0:14:08.000 --> 0:14:13.160
<v Speaker 1>Simbler language, is the ultimate example of low level languages.

0:14:13.200 --> 0:14:16.400
<v Speaker 1>These days, a utility program would take the instructions written

0:14:16.400 --> 0:14:21.000
<v Speaker 1>an assembly, which would very much mirror the instruction set

0:14:21.120 --> 0:14:23.960
<v Speaker 1>of the architecture of the machine that's running the stuff,

0:14:24.480 --> 0:14:28.400
<v Speaker 1>and then it would convert the assembler language into executable

0:14:28.440 --> 0:14:33.680
<v Speaker 1>machine code. So it takes this one representation of processes

0:14:34.360 --> 0:14:38.880
<v Speaker 1>and converted into a different representation of processes, and it's

0:14:39.040 --> 0:14:42.880
<v Speaker 1>the representation that the machine can actually use. Higher level

0:14:42.880 --> 0:14:47.240
<v Speaker 1>programming languages have more levels of abstraction in them. They

0:14:47.280 --> 0:14:51.000
<v Speaker 1>are generally speaking easier for people to work with, so

0:14:51.240 --> 0:14:54.960
<v Speaker 1>it's much easier to write a program in these languages.

0:14:55.000 --> 0:14:58.840
<v Speaker 1>The instruction sets in these programming languages are further removed

0:14:59.240 --> 0:15:02.160
<v Speaker 1>from the base architecture of the machine that you are

0:15:02.200 --> 0:15:06.160
<v Speaker 1>programming for. In fact, there are programming languages where you

0:15:06.160 --> 0:15:09.640
<v Speaker 1>can program for all sorts of different machines, and you

0:15:09.760 --> 0:15:12.880
<v Speaker 1>use a different utility for each machine to convert it

0:15:12.920 --> 0:15:16.120
<v Speaker 1>into a language the machine can use. And because of

0:15:16.160 --> 0:15:18.600
<v Speaker 1>all this, the computer code has to go through a

0:15:18.680 --> 0:15:23.440
<v Speaker 1>process called compiling before a machine can actually execute the program.

0:15:23.480 --> 0:15:26.160
<v Speaker 1>If there was no compiling process, the machine wouldn't know

0:15:26.240 --> 0:15:29.000
<v Speaker 1>what to do with the sets of instructions. It would

0:15:29.040 --> 0:15:32.800
<v Speaker 1>be it would be as if you spoke only one language,

0:15:33.280 --> 0:15:37.400
<v Speaker 1>someone else spoke only a different language, and you just

0:15:37.480 --> 0:15:39.960
<v Speaker 1>tried to keep on asking the same question like eight

0:15:39.960 --> 0:15:43.000
<v Speaker 1>different ways in English, for example, and the other person

0:15:43.080 --> 0:15:46.040
<v Speaker 1>only speaks a Mandarin, it wouldn't matter how many times

0:15:46.080 --> 0:15:49.520
<v Speaker 1>you reworded the question. The languages are fundamentally different. There

0:15:49.520 --> 0:15:52.840
<v Speaker 1>would be no communication same sort of thing. Without compiling,

0:15:53.480 --> 0:15:55.880
<v Speaker 1>the machine has no way of understanding what is you

0:15:55.920 --> 0:16:00.080
<v Speaker 1>wanted to do. So the compiler is absolutely key in

0:16:00.120 --> 0:16:04.240
<v Speaker 1>this case. Now, the compiler essentially takes one language and

0:16:04.280 --> 0:16:07.560
<v Speaker 1>converts it into a different language. That language could be

0:16:07.720 --> 0:16:13.800
<v Speaker 1>assembly language. So compiling could take your very complex, sophisticated program,

0:16:13.880 --> 0:16:16.560
<v Speaker 1>break it down into all the different steps that would

0:16:16.560 --> 0:16:20.560
<v Speaker 1>be required to make that program work in assembly language,

0:16:20.840 --> 0:16:23.440
<v Speaker 1>and then through an assembler that we get converted into

0:16:23.480 --> 0:16:26.320
<v Speaker 1>machine code, and then the computer would ultimately quote unquote,

0:16:26.560 --> 0:16:31.160
<v Speaker 1>understand what to do with your program. So you might

0:16:31.200 --> 0:16:33.960
<v Speaker 1>write a program in a language like Python, and a

0:16:34.000 --> 0:16:37.200
<v Speaker 1>compiler might take that and translate it into assembly language,

0:16:37.200 --> 0:16:39.840
<v Speaker 1>and then through an assembler that gets converted into machine

0:16:39.880 --> 0:16:43.280
<v Speaker 1>code and a computer actually uses that. So really we

0:16:43.320 --> 0:16:45.440
<v Speaker 1>can think of all this as a general process by

0:16:45.440 --> 0:16:48.600
<v Speaker 1>which we humans take stuff that we can work with

0:16:48.640 --> 0:16:51.880
<v Speaker 1>easily and convert that into stuff that a machine can

0:16:51.960 --> 0:16:54.840
<v Speaker 1>work with easily. There's a lot more to it than that,

0:16:55.040 --> 0:16:59.200
<v Speaker 1>and I am oversimplifying, but you get the idea now.

0:16:59.680 --> 0:17:03.200
<v Speaker 1>The reason why I went through all that rigamarole is

0:17:03.240 --> 0:17:06.800
<v Speaker 1>one to talk about the actual types of information that

0:17:06.880 --> 0:17:10.320
<v Speaker 1>machines work with and why that's important, and also to

0:17:10.320 --> 0:17:13.879
<v Speaker 1>get across this idea that there are so many different

0:17:13.920 --> 0:17:17.240
<v Speaker 1>ways that we can represent numbers, and there are different

0:17:17.240 --> 0:17:22.080
<v Speaker 1>ways we can represent stuff in numerical form. And if

0:17:22.119 --> 0:17:24.919
<v Speaker 1>we go back to a bide of information, those eight bits,

0:17:25.720 --> 0:17:28.320
<v Speaker 1>we can describe that in several ways. Right. We can

0:17:28.359 --> 0:17:31.720
<v Speaker 1>say eight bits represents two to the eight values, or

0:17:31.760 --> 0:17:34.200
<v Speaker 1>we could say it represents two D fifty six values,

0:17:34.359 --> 0:17:37.240
<v Speaker 1>or that we can say it represents values from zero

0:17:37.320 --> 0:17:39.920
<v Speaker 1>to two D fifty five, and so on. All of

0:17:39.960 --> 0:17:41.880
<v Speaker 1>those are essentially saying the same thing, but we're saying

0:17:41.880 --> 0:17:44.320
<v Speaker 1>it in different ways. Right. Well, there are other ways

0:17:44.320 --> 0:17:48.200
<v Speaker 1>to represent numbers as well. Another numeral system that's often

0:17:48.320 --> 0:17:52.760
<v Speaker 1>used in computing is called hexadecimal. Hexadecimal is a base

0:17:53.119 --> 0:17:56.960
<v Speaker 1>sixteen system. So the system that you and I count

0:17:57.040 --> 0:18:00.399
<v Speaker 1>in is based ten. Right, you start at zero, you

0:18:00.440 --> 0:18:03.680
<v Speaker 1>go to nine, then you move into the tens. So

0:18:03.840 --> 0:18:07.400
<v Speaker 1>ten is just one zero, eleven is just one. One

0:18:07.520 --> 0:18:09.320
<v Speaker 1>do you go up to nineteen? You move up to

0:18:09.359 --> 0:18:13.399
<v Speaker 1>the twenties. That's to zero. So that's base ten. Right. Well,

0:18:13.480 --> 0:18:17.280
<v Speaker 1>how the heck do you have a base sixteen? Right?

0:18:17.320 --> 0:18:18.840
<v Speaker 1>How do you get up to a point where? How

0:18:18.840 --> 0:18:21.200
<v Speaker 1>do you count in base sixteen? You only have ten

0:18:21.320 --> 0:18:25.040
<v Speaker 1>single digit numerals from zero to nine. Well, the way

0:18:25.119 --> 0:18:28.240
<v Speaker 1>you create base sixteen as you start to borrow from letters,

0:18:28.640 --> 0:18:32.240
<v Speaker 1>hexadecimal designation goes from zero through nine, and then to

0:18:32.320 --> 0:18:36.080
<v Speaker 1>represent values ten through fifteen, we switch to letters and

0:18:36.200 --> 0:18:40.960
<v Speaker 1>use a through F. Now, in hexadecimal, a single digit

0:18:41.200 --> 0:18:46.119
<v Speaker 1>represents four bits, so two hexadecimal digits are equal to

0:18:46.240 --> 0:18:49.760
<v Speaker 1>a byte or eight bits. So we can go from

0:18:50.400 --> 0:18:54.679
<v Speaker 1>eight zeros to eight ones for the full range of

0:18:55.160 --> 0:18:58.879
<v Speaker 1>expression with bits right, eight zeros to eight ones, that

0:18:58.920 --> 0:19:01.000
<v Speaker 1>would be zero to two hundred fifty five. If we

0:19:01.040 --> 0:19:04.320
<v Speaker 1>thought about it numerically, in like the regular digits that

0:19:04.359 --> 0:19:08.679
<v Speaker 1>we use today, but in hexadecimal, we would represent that

0:19:08.760 --> 0:19:11.320
<v Speaker 1>as zero zero, which would be the same thing as

0:19:11.440 --> 0:19:14.520
<v Speaker 1>eight zeros, or f f, which would be the same

0:19:14.520 --> 0:19:17.840
<v Speaker 1>thing as eight ones. So hexadecimal creates a slightly easier

0:19:17.880 --> 0:19:21.119
<v Speaker 1>way to represent binary data than just working with zeros

0:19:21.160 --> 0:19:24.199
<v Speaker 1>and once. Now, the whole reason I brought all this

0:19:24.320 --> 0:19:26.800
<v Speaker 1>up is that it really is important to understand there

0:19:26.840 --> 0:19:30.320
<v Speaker 1>are so many different ways to represent numbers. You can

0:19:30.320 --> 0:19:34.280
<v Speaker 1>convert one number system into another number system. You can

0:19:34.280 --> 0:19:37.200
<v Speaker 1>convert numbers into other stuff too, like you could create

0:19:37.240 --> 0:19:40.800
<v Speaker 1>an image based off numbers, or vice versa. You could

0:19:40.800 --> 0:19:44.840
<v Speaker 1>take an image and reduce it to numerical data representing

0:19:44.880 --> 0:19:48.520
<v Speaker 1>the image. If we couldn't do that, computers would not work,

0:19:48.680 --> 0:19:50.359
<v Speaker 1>or at least they wouldn't be able to do anything

0:19:50.400 --> 0:19:54.000
<v Speaker 1>other than perform operations on numbers like a very simple calculator.

0:19:54.600 --> 0:19:57.840
<v Speaker 1>But Ada Lovelace had it right. We can use numbers

0:19:57.840 --> 0:20:01.199
<v Speaker 1>to represent all sorts of incredible things, from images to

0:20:01.359 --> 0:20:05.280
<v Speaker 1>music to sophisticated programs like the Curse of Monkey Island.

0:20:05.960 --> 0:20:08.840
<v Speaker 1>All right, when we come back, we're gonna go back

0:20:08.840 --> 0:20:11.000
<v Speaker 1>to the d m c A, and we're gonna combine

0:20:11.119 --> 0:20:13.320
<v Speaker 1>the things we learned about the d m c A

0:20:13.520 --> 0:20:16.040
<v Speaker 1>and the things we learned about using numbers to represent

0:20:16.080 --> 0:20:19.320
<v Speaker 1>different things and figure out how a number can be

0:20:19.400 --> 0:20:29.959
<v Speaker 1>illegal But first, let's take another quick break. All right,

0:20:30.200 --> 0:20:31.760
<v Speaker 1>back to the d m c A. The d m

0:20:31.800 --> 0:20:35.080
<v Speaker 1>c A makes it illegal to attempt to circumvent access

0:20:35.280 --> 0:20:39.800
<v Speaker 1>controls on digital copyrighted works. That means it's illegal to

0:20:39.840 --> 0:20:43.320
<v Speaker 1>develop tools expressly for the purposes of getting around digital

0:20:43.400 --> 0:20:46.480
<v Speaker 1>rights management or d r M. So let's say that

0:20:46.600 --> 0:20:50.040
<v Speaker 1>someone goes out and writes a program that is essentially

0:20:50.040 --> 0:20:53.560
<v Speaker 1>a work around of d r M. That program is

0:20:53.680 --> 0:20:56.119
<v Speaker 1>illegal unless it happens to be used in one of

0:20:56.160 --> 0:21:01.760
<v Speaker 1>those very narrow exemptions I mentioned earlier. Distributing that program

0:21:01.840 --> 0:21:06.199
<v Speaker 1>is also illegal. You could reduce the program to something

0:21:06.280 --> 0:21:09.840
<v Speaker 1>like its source code, and you could represent that source

0:21:09.880 --> 0:21:13.520
<v Speaker 1>code in some other format. You could then post that

0:21:13.640 --> 0:21:16.880
<v Speaker 1>format on a web page for anyone to see, and

0:21:17.080 --> 0:21:21.040
<v Speaker 1>someone could see that representation, they could copy the representation,

0:21:21.400 --> 0:21:24.760
<v Speaker 1>they could reverse the process you use to arrive at

0:21:25.520 --> 0:21:28.720
<v Speaker 1>that representation, and then they would have the source code,

0:21:28.880 --> 0:21:33.879
<v Speaker 1>which means now that person has possession of the illegal material. So,

0:21:33.920 --> 0:21:38.360
<v Speaker 1>in other words, by changing the representation of the program,

0:21:38.480 --> 0:21:43.840
<v Speaker 1>you have created a different means of of displaying that information.

0:21:44.760 --> 0:21:49.640
<v Speaker 1>Does that, in fact make that display itself illegal? If

0:21:49.680 --> 0:21:51.760
<v Speaker 1>we follow the d m c A rules, to the letter,

0:21:52.240 --> 0:21:55.479
<v Speaker 1>and we acknowledge that it is possible to share something

0:21:55.560 --> 0:21:58.960
<v Speaker 1>that is illegal to possess if we just represent that

0:21:59.040 --> 0:22:02.640
<v Speaker 1>thing in numerical value, well, by extension, the only logical

0:22:02.680 --> 0:22:05.920
<v Speaker 1>thing we can say is that that number itself is illegal.

0:22:06.200 --> 0:22:07.919
<v Speaker 1>And in fact, you could go a step further. You

0:22:07.920 --> 0:22:12.359
<v Speaker 1>could break down illegal material such as an encryption key

0:22:12.440 --> 0:22:17.160
<v Speaker 1>for example, convert that into hexadecimal code. Convert the hexadecimal

0:22:17.200 --> 0:22:21.119
<v Speaker 1>code into an image, and use that image to distribute

0:22:21.200 --> 0:22:24.240
<v Speaker 1>the code. This whole thing is still reversible, Like you

0:22:24.280 --> 0:22:26.040
<v Speaker 1>have to know the steps that were used, but you

0:22:26.080 --> 0:22:29.680
<v Speaker 1>could do those same steps in the reverse order and

0:22:29.720 --> 0:22:32.639
<v Speaker 1>we're you know, arrive at that source code. This this

0:22:32.800 --> 0:22:35.840
<v Speaker 1>could be a form of steganography, that's hiding a message

0:22:35.880 --> 0:22:39.800
<v Speaker 1>inside something else, like an image. Doesn't have to be

0:22:39.840 --> 0:22:42.719
<v Speaker 1>an image, but that's frequently what we think of when

0:22:42.760 --> 0:22:46.879
<v Speaker 1>we think of steganography. Now, if we follow D M

0:22:46.960 --> 0:22:49.240
<v Speaker 1>C A to the logical conclusion, we would say, well,

0:22:49.280 --> 0:22:52.200
<v Speaker 1>that would mean the image itself would be illegal. So really,

0:22:52.200 --> 0:22:54.399
<v Speaker 1>when you break it down, the concept of illegal numbers

0:22:54.480 --> 0:22:57.160
<v Speaker 1>is meant to show how absurd it is to try

0:22:57.200 --> 0:23:02.879
<v Speaker 1>and legislate information, because information is mutable. That is, you know,

0:23:02.920 --> 0:23:06.200
<v Speaker 1>we can change it from one format into a different format,

0:23:06.400 --> 0:23:10.440
<v Speaker 1>and the format that would seem innocent and definitely abstract

0:23:10.520 --> 0:23:14.000
<v Speaker 1>from whatever it was representing, and any attempts to ban

0:23:14.160 --> 0:23:17.520
<v Speaker 1>that information becomes absurd because how far do you go

0:23:17.640 --> 0:23:20.639
<v Speaker 1>with that. Let's say, for example, that I cracked the

0:23:20.760 --> 0:23:23.960
<v Speaker 1>encryption used by some software companies to protect their work.

0:23:24.160 --> 0:23:26.480
<v Speaker 1>Right it limits the access to their work, And I've

0:23:26.480 --> 0:23:29.440
<v Speaker 1>cracked it, and I create a program that lets other

0:23:29.480 --> 0:23:33.879
<v Speaker 1>people circumvent this protection, and then I represent the program

0:23:33.920 --> 0:23:38.200
<v Speaker 1>as a hexadecimal value, which, when you convert it over,

0:23:38.320 --> 0:23:41.720
<v Speaker 1>becomes the source code for this program. But then I

0:23:41.760 --> 0:23:46.520
<v Speaker 1>take that hexadecimal value and I use it to run

0:23:46.600 --> 0:23:50.879
<v Speaker 1>through another program that creates a very very large number,

0:23:51.480 --> 0:23:53.760
<v Speaker 1>and it's totally reversible. If you were to take that

0:23:53.840 --> 0:23:56.639
<v Speaker 1>very very large number and run it through a similar program,

0:23:56.680 --> 0:23:59.600
<v Speaker 1>you would arrive at the hexadecimal value, which you could

0:23:59.600 --> 0:24:02.560
<v Speaker 1>then can vert into the source code, and you would

0:24:02.560 --> 0:24:06.160
<v Speaker 1>be back where I started. So I post this very

0:24:06.280 --> 0:24:09.760
<v Speaker 1>very large number, which by itself, without any other context,

0:24:10.000 --> 0:24:13.200
<v Speaker 1>is just a number. Can the software company actually claim

0:24:13.560 --> 0:24:17.440
<v Speaker 1>that that very large number is in violation of its

0:24:17.520 --> 0:24:21.119
<v Speaker 1>intellectual property, because isn't that absurd, But because of the

0:24:21.160 --> 0:24:24.679
<v Speaker 1>nature of digital information, all of this is entirely possible.

0:24:25.280 --> 0:24:30.159
<v Speaker 1>Complicating matters is that sometimes once you do all these conversions,

0:24:30.280 --> 0:24:33.320
<v Speaker 1>you end up with a prime number. Depends on what

0:24:33.440 --> 0:24:36.120
<v Speaker 1>you're using in order to create these. Like I said,

0:24:36.119 --> 0:24:39.560
<v Speaker 1>you're usually using some form of software that takes the

0:24:39.720 --> 0:24:44.200
<v Speaker 1>value of something and converts it into another format. There

0:24:44.200 --> 0:24:47.359
<v Speaker 1>are some where if you do this and you set

0:24:47.400 --> 0:24:50.720
<v Speaker 1>things just right, then the end output you get is

0:24:50.720 --> 0:24:54.960
<v Speaker 1>a prime number. If that prime number represents illegal material,

0:24:55.240 --> 0:24:58.080
<v Speaker 1>does that make that prime number illegal? And if so,

0:24:58.200 --> 0:25:00.800
<v Speaker 1>wouldn't that mean that listing that number in a database

0:25:00.880 --> 0:25:04.080
<v Speaker 1>of prime numbers would be a crime. But there are

0:25:04.359 --> 0:25:07.080
<v Speaker 1>legit reasons you want to be able to get lists

0:25:07.080 --> 0:25:11.600
<v Speaker 1>of prime numbers. Prime numbers are incredibly useful in computation.

0:25:12.560 --> 0:25:14.560
<v Speaker 1>And the reason I talked so much about the d

0:25:14.680 --> 0:25:17.879
<v Speaker 1>m c A is that the big instance of the

0:25:17.920 --> 0:25:21.040
<v Speaker 1>concept of illegal numbers. In fact, the number that is

0:25:21.119 --> 0:25:26.200
<v Speaker 1>referenced as the illegal number, popped up because of an

0:25:26.240 --> 0:25:28.560
<v Speaker 1>issue that happened around two thousand one. That's when some

0:25:28.600 --> 0:25:32.879
<v Speaker 1>programmers created software that they called d E c s S.

0:25:33.600 --> 0:25:37.760
<v Speaker 1>This software could decrypt DVDs, so DVDs had encryption that

0:25:37.800 --> 0:25:42.040
<v Speaker 1>would prevent people from doing things like copying the DVDs. Now,

0:25:42.040 --> 0:25:43.840
<v Speaker 1>there are a couple of reasons you might want to

0:25:43.880 --> 0:25:46.640
<v Speaker 1>decrypt a DVD. One might be that you do want

0:25:46.680 --> 0:25:49.959
<v Speaker 1>to copy DVDs, you want to create bootlegs of it

0:25:50.000 --> 0:25:52.439
<v Speaker 1>and sell bootlegs at a mark down price on a

0:25:52.480 --> 0:25:55.600
<v Speaker 1>street corner or something. That's the dread piracy route that

0:25:55.720 --> 0:25:59.200
<v Speaker 1>the big companies were all scared of. But another reason

0:25:59.359 --> 0:26:01.600
<v Speaker 1>you might want to get around DVD encryption would be

0:26:01.640 --> 0:26:04.720
<v Speaker 1>to run the DVD on, say a computer system that

0:26:04.880 --> 0:26:08.600
<v Speaker 1>had an operating system that wasn't supported by DVD encryption,

0:26:09.040 --> 0:26:11.879
<v Speaker 1>like Lenox back in the day. You have a Linux computer.

0:26:11.960 --> 0:26:14.159
<v Speaker 1>You want to watch a DVD on that Linux computer,

0:26:14.280 --> 0:26:18.400
<v Speaker 1>but because Linux is not compatible with that encryption method,

0:26:18.480 --> 0:26:21.440
<v Speaker 1>you need to strip the encryption off of it first. Now,

0:26:21.480 --> 0:26:24.000
<v Speaker 1>according to the d m c A, the d e

0:26:24.119 --> 0:26:27.600
<v Speaker 1>c s S program was illegal. It allows one to

0:26:27.640 --> 0:26:31.080
<v Speaker 1>circumvent the access control of the copyrighted work on the DVD,

0:26:31.640 --> 0:26:34.639
<v Speaker 1>and d e c s S prompted criminal cases against

0:26:34.680 --> 0:26:38.560
<v Speaker 1>the programmers, only one of whom was ever identified, and

0:26:38.560 --> 0:26:41.600
<v Speaker 1>and that one was acquitted. But in the United States,

0:26:41.720 --> 0:26:45.359
<v Speaker 1>d E c s S was deemed an illegal piece

0:26:45.400 --> 0:26:50.840
<v Speaker 1>of software. Well, then a programmer named Phil Carmatti got

0:26:50.880 --> 0:26:55.040
<v Speaker 1>the nifty idea to convert the code, the source code

0:26:55.240 --> 0:26:58.199
<v Speaker 1>for d E c s S into a prime number.

0:26:58.440 --> 0:27:01.680
<v Speaker 1>So he took the source code, which was originally programmed

0:27:01.680 --> 0:27:04.840
<v Speaker 1>in the C programming language, and he used a Unix

0:27:04.880 --> 0:27:09.879
<v Speaker 1>process to reduce the file size. Um it's called g zip.

0:27:10.840 --> 0:27:13.560
<v Speaker 1>He then took the new file format and he ran

0:27:13.600 --> 0:27:17.320
<v Speaker 1>it through a different program in order to arrive at

0:27:17.320 --> 0:27:21.359
<v Speaker 1>a one thousand, four hundred one digit prime number. He

0:27:21.359 --> 0:27:25.040
<v Speaker 1>would later actually boost that up to one five digits

0:27:25.160 --> 0:27:29.639
<v Speaker 1>for reasons I'll explain in a second. Now, when that

0:27:29.720 --> 0:27:33.040
<v Speaker 1>prime number gets converted into hexadecimal, it would represent a

0:27:33.160 --> 0:27:36.199
<v Speaker 1>g ZIP file of the original source code for d

0:27:36.359 --> 0:27:39.439
<v Speaker 1>E c SS. Now, his whole point was that he

0:27:39.480 --> 0:27:45.520
<v Speaker 1>could create an archivable representation of this illegal software. You see,

0:27:45.520 --> 0:27:49.720
<v Speaker 1>because prime numbers are important and they could be mathematically interesting.

0:27:50.440 --> 0:27:53.960
<v Speaker 1>If you were to take information that has deemed illegal

0:27:54.000 --> 0:27:57.640
<v Speaker 1>for whatever reason and use this conversion process and turn

0:27:57.680 --> 0:28:01.840
<v Speaker 1>it into an interesting prime number, then that would be

0:28:02.000 --> 0:28:04.800
<v Speaker 1>enough to have reason to archive it like it's it's

0:28:05.119 --> 0:28:07.640
<v Speaker 1>important you need to be able to archive it, which

0:28:07.680 --> 0:28:11.880
<v Speaker 1>means that whether the information is illegal or not, you

0:28:11.920 --> 0:28:16.800
<v Speaker 1>can you can save it, you can archive it, and um, yeah, sure,

0:28:16.920 --> 0:28:19.720
<v Speaker 1>that number ultimately, if you go through this process, represents

0:28:19.720 --> 0:28:23.520
<v Speaker 1>a way to decrypt DVDs illegally. But that same number,

0:28:23.520 --> 0:28:26.080
<v Speaker 1>it can also be mathematically interesting on its own merits,

0:28:26.400 --> 0:28:28.960
<v Speaker 1>So making it illegal to publish that number would be

0:28:29.040 --> 0:28:32.120
<v Speaker 1>a real sticky wicket, as they say, And that's why

0:28:32.359 --> 0:28:35.320
<v Speaker 1>he boosted it to one thousand, nine five digits. The

0:28:35.440 --> 0:28:38.000
<v Speaker 1>one thousand, four hundred one digit prime number, he argued,

0:28:38.160 --> 0:28:43.280
<v Speaker 1>was not really mathematically interesting and so it probably did

0:28:43.320 --> 0:28:49.960
<v Speaker 1>not represent a really a strong case for being archivable

0:28:50.040 --> 0:28:53.920
<v Speaker 1>without being illegal. But by boosting it, he said, well,

0:28:54.160 --> 0:28:57.880
<v Speaker 1>this number does have some interest mathematically, and so therefore

0:28:58.320 --> 0:29:02.040
<v Speaker 1>it would be ludicrous to deem it as illegal, even

0:29:02.080 --> 0:29:06.840
<v Speaker 1>though it also represents this illegal process. Now, Karamati's thought

0:29:06.880 --> 0:29:09.400
<v Speaker 1>was that the banning of pure information just doesn't make

0:29:09.440 --> 0:29:12.520
<v Speaker 1>any sense, and he sees source code as being a

0:29:12.560 --> 0:29:16.000
<v Speaker 1>type of pure information. And I think his argument is

0:29:16.040 --> 0:29:19.040
<v Speaker 1>really strong since we've seen there are so many different

0:29:19.040 --> 0:29:23.160
<v Speaker 1>ways to represent pure information. You could convert those numbers

0:29:23.200 --> 0:29:25.960
<v Speaker 1>into music if you liked you would just need to

0:29:25.960 --> 0:29:29.440
<v Speaker 1>create a program that would follow specific rules in order

0:29:29.480 --> 0:29:32.560
<v Speaker 1>to take this and turn it into music. And then

0:29:33.000 --> 0:29:36.200
<v Speaker 1>would you say that that music which represents these numbers,

0:29:36.200 --> 0:29:40.920
<v Speaker 1>which ultimately, through however many layers of abstraction, represents illegal material.

0:29:41.080 --> 0:29:44.719
<v Speaker 1>Would you say the music itself as illegal. It's all

0:29:44.840 --> 0:29:47.120
<v Speaker 1>very puzzling, and the more you think about it, the

0:29:47.120 --> 0:29:49.280
<v Speaker 1>more it feels like you're slipping into an alice in

0:29:49.320 --> 0:29:52.959
<v Speaker 1>Wonderland situation. Lewis Carroll would have a field day with

0:29:53.080 --> 0:29:58.360
<v Speaker 1>this stuff. But that is the concept of the illegal number,

0:29:58.720 --> 0:30:03.440
<v Speaker 1>a number that ultimate le represents a process to decrypt DVDs.

0:30:03.440 --> 0:30:06.280
<v Speaker 1>And as I said, it is the illegal number, But

0:30:06.320 --> 0:30:10.200
<v Speaker 1>there are other illegal numbers. Really, anything that could represent

0:30:10.320 --> 0:30:14.920
<v Speaker 1>illegal material could be conceived of as an illegal number.

0:30:15.840 --> 0:30:17.960
<v Speaker 1>It might be that the majority of people who see

0:30:17.960 --> 0:30:21.240
<v Speaker 1>that number have no idea why it represents, nor would

0:30:21.280 --> 0:30:24.239
<v Speaker 1>they necessarily know how to go through the process of

0:30:24.280 --> 0:30:28.600
<v Speaker 1>converting that number into whatever the illegal material ultimately is.

0:30:29.360 --> 0:30:34.320
<v Speaker 1>But the argument still stands that if you can successfully

0:30:34.360 --> 0:30:38.520
<v Speaker 1>say that this this number displaying this number is illegal,

0:30:39.280 --> 0:30:42.680
<v Speaker 1>where does that end? How do how do we actually

0:30:43.040 --> 0:30:46.000
<v Speaker 1>have a world that makes sense where you have made

0:30:46.680 --> 0:30:53.520
<v Speaker 1>pure data illegal to distribute or to exhibit. That is

0:30:53.600 --> 0:30:59.680
<v Speaker 1>the the absurdity that's on on display here, and um, yeah,

0:30:59.680 --> 0:31:04.400
<v Speaker 1>it shows how the the worlds of technology, politics, and

0:31:04.440 --> 0:31:08.000
<v Speaker 1>business can come into conflict with one another. And you

0:31:08.040 --> 0:31:11.560
<v Speaker 1>can kind of understand the perspectives of the different parties here,

0:31:12.000 --> 0:31:14.840
<v Speaker 1>but it still doesn't make it any less absurd. So

0:31:15.000 --> 0:31:17.080
<v Speaker 1>I hope you enjoyed this episode. I know it was

0:31:17.440 --> 0:31:20.160
<v Speaker 1>a bit of a convoluted one, but it's important to

0:31:20.240 --> 0:31:22.600
<v Speaker 1>kind of get all these different concepts in your head

0:31:23.040 --> 0:31:27.480
<v Speaker 1>so that you can kind of understand the the challenges

0:31:27.520 --> 0:31:32.920
<v Speaker 1>here when you're trying to balance things like copy protection

0:31:34.120 --> 0:31:40.040
<v Speaker 1>versus the representation of pure information. Um, it does get

0:31:40.160 --> 0:31:44.959
<v Speaker 1>messy and there may not be any simple solution for

0:31:45.000 --> 0:31:48.719
<v Speaker 1>all of this, but I definitely think that prosecuting people

0:31:49.160 --> 0:31:52.840
<v Speaker 1>for demonstrating for you know, showing a number would be

0:31:53.080 --> 0:31:57.600
<v Speaker 1>absolutely ludicrous. Like again, where does that stop. It's entirely

0:31:57.640 --> 0:32:01.240
<v Speaker 1>possible to have something like the with Krmadi. He he

0:32:01.280 --> 0:32:05.000
<v Speaker 1>actually said, if you have a prime number that represents

0:32:05.080 --> 0:32:09.720
<v Speaker 1>ultimately this illegal process, there are legitimate reasons for demons

0:32:09.720 --> 0:32:11.680
<v Speaker 1>for displaying that prime number. They have nothing to do

0:32:11.720 --> 0:32:14.440
<v Speaker 1>with the process, right, It's all about the prime numbers,

0:32:15.000 --> 0:32:19.120
<v Speaker 1>and therefore you cannot make it illegal to display, because

0:32:19.160 --> 0:32:21.920
<v Speaker 1>if you did, then you would invalidate all of these

0:32:22.040 --> 0:32:25.920
<v Speaker 1>legitimate purposes for showing that information, which makes no sense.

0:32:26.160 --> 0:32:28.640
<v Speaker 1>It would be like saying, you know what, uranium is

0:32:28.640 --> 0:32:31.720
<v Speaker 1>a dangerous element, so from now on, you're not allowed

0:32:31.720 --> 0:32:34.400
<v Speaker 1>to show it on the periodic table of elements. Does

0:32:34.480 --> 0:32:36.960
<v Speaker 1>make no sense either, Right, That's kind of what we're

0:32:36.960 --> 0:32:40.960
<v Speaker 1>going at here. Anyway, thank you the Gregorlis for that suggestion.

0:32:41.000 --> 0:32:42.480
<v Speaker 1>It was a lot of fun to go down that

0:32:42.600 --> 0:32:46.080
<v Speaker 1>rabbit hole. And uh, I welcome everyone to send in

0:32:46.120 --> 0:32:49.800
<v Speaker 1>their suggestions for episodes like this. I'm good. Like I said,

0:32:49.800 --> 0:32:51.160
<v Speaker 1>I'm gonna be tackling a few of them in the

0:32:51.240 --> 0:32:53.840
<v Speaker 1>upcoming episodes. The way you can reach out to me,

0:32:53.920 --> 0:32:56.600
<v Speaker 1>there are two ways. One is that you can get

0:32:56.640 --> 0:32:59.160
<v Speaker 1>the I Heart Radio app and you can go to

0:32:59.240 --> 0:33:02.120
<v Speaker 1>the tech stuff page and I Heart Radio app and

0:33:02.160 --> 0:33:05.280
<v Speaker 1>you can use the little microphone talk back feature there,

0:33:05.440 --> 0:33:07.200
<v Speaker 1>which will let you record a message of up to

0:33:07.320 --> 0:33:10.920
<v Speaker 1>thirty seconds in length. And uh, the only people who

0:33:10.960 --> 0:33:15.080
<v Speaker 1>can hear that are Tori and myself, and if we

0:33:15.400 --> 0:33:17.200
<v Speaker 1>you know, if you like, we can even use that

0:33:17.280 --> 0:33:20.360
<v Speaker 1>thirty seconds in an episode to kind of launch into

0:33:20.880 --> 0:33:24.120
<v Speaker 1>whatever the topic suggestion is. Uh, but if you don't

0:33:24.120 --> 0:33:26.160
<v Speaker 1>want that, just let me know and I definitely won't

0:33:26.160 --> 0:33:29.440
<v Speaker 1>play it, but that is a possibility and I love

0:33:29.480 --> 0:33:33.000
<v Speaker 1>hearing from you. I'm gonna be using one of those

0:33:33.040 --> 0:33:35.920
<v Speaker 1>pretty soon, so that's one way. The other way, of course,

0:33:35.960 --> 0:33:38.440
<v Speaker 1>is to reach out via Twitter. The handle for the

0:33:38.440 --> 0:33:41.440
<v Speaker 1>show is text stuff hs W. Just send me a

0:33:41.440 --> 0:33:43.520
<v Speaker 1>message that way. That's how the Gregor List did it,

0:33:44.080 --> 0:33:47.280
<v Speaker 1>and I'll be sure to see that as well. That's

0:33:47.320 --> 0:33:50.360
<v Speaker 1>it for this episode. Hope you enjoyed it and I'll

0:33:50.360 --> 0:33:58.600
<v Speaker 1>talk to you again really soon. Text Stuff is an

0:33:58.680 --> 0:34:02.360
<v Speaker 1>I Heart Radio production. For more podcasts from I Heart Radio,

0:34:02.680 --> 0:34:05.840
<v Speaker 1>visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

0:34:05.960 --> 0:34:12.000
<v Speaker 1>you listen to your favorite shows. H