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Let curiosity Stream put the 33 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:45,720 Speaker 1: science back in your screen time, astound you with history, 34 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:48,960 Speaker 1: come to life and wildlife that will reach out and 35 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 1: grab you. We've got the fix for your nonfiction fascination 36 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 1: with monthly, annual, and bundled plans. Find one for you 37 00:01:56,880 --> 00:02:03,800 Speaker 1: at curiosity stream dot com. Welcome to the Piked and Massacre, 38 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 1: a production of iHeartRadio and Katie Studios. Episode seven four 39 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:17,000 Speaker 1: thousand miles away. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at 40 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:20,760 Speaker 1: Katie's Studios with Stephanie Lydecker and Jeff Shane. After the 41 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:23,920 Speaker 1: Roden family was brutally gunned down in their homes, authorities 42 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:26,960 Speaker 1: embarked in what would become the largest homicide investigation in 43 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:30,399 Speaker 1: Ohio's history. Over the course of the cases first year, 44 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:34,480 Speaker 1: law enforcement officers began compiling a staggering amount of clues 45 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:37,079 Speaker 1: that they hoped would lead to the killers. Ohio Attorney 46 00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:39,960 Speaker 1: General Mike Dwine giving an update in the Pike County murderers. 47 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 1: You've received eight hundred and eighty three tips. We have 48 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 1: conducted four hundred and sixty five interviews, Jewine says. There 49 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:48,880 Speaker 1: have also been thirty eight search warrants issued, but so 50 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 1: far new arrest. I think that you know, we made 51 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 1: significant progress. But by early twenty seventeen, the evidence that 52 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:00,440 Speaker 1: authorities had collected was pointing them to where it's one 53 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:04,640 Speaker 1: group of people, in particular the Wagner family. That spring, 54 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:07,239 Speaker 1: with the case heating up, the Wagners decided to leave 55 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:10,640 Speaker 1: the piked In area with Jake Wagner and Hannah Rodin's 56 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 1: daughter Sophia until they sold their farm packed up their 57 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 1: belongings and drove four thousand miles north to Kenaie, Alaska, 58 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:21,960 Speaker 1: a city of about eight thousand people southwest of Anchorage. 59 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:27,360 Speaker 1: It was a move that Wagner relative Deray not only encouraged, 60 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 1: but conceived of. They had been wanting to move to 61 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:33,360 Speaker 1: Alaska for a while because the pastor of the church 62 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 1: moved there. He's very important headstone and their family. I'm 63 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 1: the one that told him go to Alaska. Number One, 64 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 1: the state of Ohio can not afford to extradite you 65 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 1: from Alaska back home. I just thought it was the 66 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:50,760 Speaker 1: greatest that they took off. I said, that's the best 67 00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:53,080 Speaker 1: thing in the world for the kids, and it's the 68 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 1: best thing in the world for you guys. The family 69 00:03:57,080 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 1: quickly got settled in Keenei. They lived together in a 70 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 1: double white trailer on a large piece of property. Billy 71 00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:06,120 Speaker 1: and Angela even registered to vote. Jeff talked to one 72 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 1: of the Wagner's family relatives who kept in touch with 73 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 1: them while they were in Alaska. She asked us not 74 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:12,920 Speaker 1: to use her name, but told us about their life 75 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:16,720 Speaker 1: once they arrived. What was their life like in Alaska. Well, 76 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 1: Jake has got a job. It was a construction type business. 77 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:24,120 Speaker 1: Angela didn't work. I think she might have done some 78 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:27,680 Speaker 1: things from like home over the internet or something like that. 79 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:30,719 Speaker 1: And Bill, I'm not sure what he did exactly, but 80 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:33,440 Speaker 1: they did have it very nice home in Alaska that 81 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:36,400 Speaker 1: they were in the process of trying to buy from 82 00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 1: what I understand anyways, and Jake he had Sophie at 83 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:45,640 Speaker 1: the time, and they just kind of work getting by. 84 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 1: The Wagner's sudden departure left the whole town of piked 85 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:54,120 Speaker 1: and bewildered and suspicious. Dana Roden's friend Stefane remembers the 86 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 1: day she heard the news. She shared her thoughts with 87 00:04:56,880 --> 00:05:01,320 Speaker 1: Jeff Well, when they left for Alaska, I was like, oh, wow, 88 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 1: they are gonna they are running, you know, they are running. 89 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 1: And then I thought they all get away with it 90 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:11,920 Speaker 1: if they did this, if they did this, they will 91 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 1: get away with it. Or people talking about the Wagoners, like, 92 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:17,680 Speaker 1: was the feeling that they might have been guilty or 93 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:21,480 Speaker 1: what were people thinking or speculating in town. M Yeah, 94 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 1: they pretty much thought that, you know, that was the 95 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:32,479 Speaker 1: that was the deal. They were running from it. But 96 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:36,599 Speaker 1: the Wagoner's relocation didn't hinder the investigation. According to reporter 97 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:39,159 Speaker 1: James Pilcher, it only helped to move the case forward. 98 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 1: They moved to Alaska, which raised even more suspicion. But 99 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:46,120 Speaker 1: then the very following month, law enforcement actually finally searches 100 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:50,240 Speaker 1: the properties where the Wagoners lived. So that was really 101 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:54,680 Speaker 1: the first public indication that the Wagoners were possible suspects, 102 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 1: if not people of interest, So that started to tighten 103 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:03,800 Speaker 1: the noose in terms of the Wagoners. On June six, 104 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 1: twenty seventeen, as the investigation pressed on, Attorney General Mike 105 00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:10,640 Speaker 1: Dwine appealed to the public for information connecting the Wagners 106 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:13,920 Speaker 1: to the crime. Investigators want any information about the family, 107 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:18,240 Speaker 1: including information about vehicles, guns, and ammunition. Anyone with information 108 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:21,920 Speaker 1: is asked to call the pieces. Investigative journalists Jodie Barr 109 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:24,919 Speaker 1: recalled to the Attorney General's announcement. Other than being on 110 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:27,560 Speaker 1: the ground in Pike County and hearing the Waggoner's names 111 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:30,120 Speaker 1: come up from time to time and you had no 112 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 1: verifiable leads or you would exhaust all leads, that was 113 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 1: the first time that anything was said in public from 114 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 1: anybody with this investigation that they may have people that 115 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 1: they were looking at and who potentially had something to 116 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 1: do with this, and at that time, no one knew 117 00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:50,880 Speaker 1: the extent of the involvement that the investigators believed the 118 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:53,680 Speaker 1: Waggoners may have had. It was just they were asking 119 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:56,920 Speaker 1: for help, and that seems really strange. But it also 120 00:06:57,040 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 1: on the other end, it connected some of the pieces 121 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 1: that we had heard in the beginning, you know, that 122 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:04,880 Speaker 1: maybe gave more weight to the custody issues that we 123 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:07,839 Speaker 1: were trying to dig into before. But it was still 124 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 1: just it was still confusing that they would come out 125 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 1: and say that and no arrest made, no indictments made, 126 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 1: but yet they were asking for help to identify. Yeah, 127 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 1: it's not unusual that they would just kind of like 128 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 1: blatantly say a name and be like, does anyone know 129 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:28,040 Speaker 1: anything about this person who's not an official suspect or 130 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 1: someone we've arrested. Even it's just confusing, and I would 131 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 1: love to ask now, Governor Mike DeWine, you know why 132 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:36,880 Speaker 1: they played it the way they played it? You know, 133 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:39,600 Speaker 1: did they know what they needed to know? Then? Were 134 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:43,280 Speaker 1: they trying to have the Wagners make a misstep when 135 00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 1: they announced this to the world. Mike DeWine's press release 136 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:53,160 Speaker 1: prompted the Wagner's family attorney John K. Clark, to accuse 137 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 1: law enforcement of harassing his clients. Here's Jeff, followed by Stephanie. 138 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 1: In a statement to the Cincinnati Inquired, the lawyers said 139 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 1: that the authorities were clueless and competent, or they themselves 140 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:07,000 Speaker 1: were involved in a cover up. In short, his clients 141 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 1: were innocent. That's because, according to Clark, the Wagners were 142 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:13,920 Speaker 1: cooperating with officials and had provided authorities with everything they 143 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:18,120 Speaker 1: had asked for, including laptops, phones, and DNA willingly, and 144 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 1: they also agreed to repeated interviews with the Ohio Bureau 145 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 1: of Criminal Investigation. Clark even said that the Wagners told 146 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:28,920 Speaker 1: BCI agents that they were in fact moving. I spoke 147 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:32,680 Speaker 1: with former Ohio Prosecutor Mike Allen about the legal implications 148 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 1: of the Wagner's cooperation. What about the Wagners and their 149 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:40,440 Speaker 1: compliance with authorities? I know their lawyer has said they've 150 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 1: cooperated one hundred and ten percent. Can you talk through 151 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 1: the details of that, sure? I mean, from what I understand, 152 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:49,839 Speaker 1: they did turn over some things laptops, phones that they 153 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 1: submitted to DNA, giving examplars which it could be compelled 154 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:58,480 Speaker 1: to do anyway. Some of them at least were interviewed 155 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:02,200 Speaker 1: by Ohio BCI agents, and I guess they told those 156 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:05,840 Speaker 1: agents that they were traveling and about to move to Atlanska, 157 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:08,240 Speaker 1: and they claimed they had been thinking about that for 158 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:11,240 Speaker 1: a long time. So yeah, I mean, from what I 159 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 1: can see, there was some cooperation. But whether it was 160 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:18,160 Speaker 1: one hundred and ten percent, I don't know. And frankly 161 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:22,040 Speaker 1: I doubt because that rarely happens. Does that do anything 162 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:25,600 Speaker 1: when it comes to juries, you know, does that hold sway? 163 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 1: It can you know in closing argument that the defense 164 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 1: lawyer could stand up and say to the jury, my client, 165 00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 1: you know, he cooperated one hundred and ten percent, you know, 166 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:43,199 Speaker 1: meaning that he has nothing to hide. The Cincinnati Inquirer 167 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:45,840 Speaker 1: even tracked the family down in Alaska in July of 168 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 1: twenty seventeen. In a published article, Jake Wagner said that 169 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:52,559 Speaker 1: he had moved to give Sophia a better life. This 170 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:56,320 Speaker 1: is Jodi Barr again. The Cincinnati Inquirer obviously went there 171 00:09:56,600 --> 00:10:00,400 Speaker 1: and they found them. I mean, it was they didn't 172 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:02,679 Speaker 1: try to slip off in the middle of the night. 173 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:05,080 Speaker 1: It didn't seem I mean, if a reporter could find 174 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:08,959 Speaker 1: them then obviously law enforcements knew very much where they 175 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:11,640 Speaker 1: were at that point in time. I mean, as far 176 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:14,760 Speaker 1: as a level of cooperation, we haven't heard anything yet 177 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:17,720 Speaker 1: that said the Waggoners weren't cooperating with the law enforcements. 178 00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:20,360 Speaker 1: Did they do it? We want to know now. Obviously 179 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:22,640 Speaker 1: everybody wants to know right now, and you don't let 180 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:25,680 Speaker 1: the process play out. But man, if they're cooperating, as 181 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:30,640 Speaker 1: this attorney says, they're giving over computers, a laptop, you know, DNA, 182 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:34,360 Speaker 1: whatever it takes. You know, people who aren't experts of criminology, 183 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:36,440 Speaker 1: we look at that and go, well, man, that sounds 184 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:39,079 Speaker 1: like an innocent person. An innocent person will be doing that. 185 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:44,800 Speaker 1: Despite their involvement in a very large and very active 186 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 1: murder investigation. The Wagners were trying to start a new 187 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:50,280 Speaker 1: life in Alaska and didn't seem to have any intention 188 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:54,079 Speaker 1: of returning. Here's our anonymous Wagner family source. When I 189 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:57,520 Speaker 1: would ask to answers, how thanks going, you know, when 190 00:10:57,520 --> 00:11:01,160 Speaker 1: are you say come back and visit or and so forth, 191 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:03,719 Speaker 1: she was kind of just really backwards about it. She 192 00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:06,240 Speaker 1: never would really tell me what they were doing. She 193 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:09,760 Speaker 1: never really said when she would be back home to visit, 194 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 1: just that she misses us, you know, and that she 195 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 1: would love to be able to come home, but right 196 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:17,920 Speaker 1: now she can't, and that she made the comment or 197 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 1: and said that if she did get to come back, 198 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 1: that she couldn't tell me over the phone, that she 199 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 1: would just basically have to show up, and that once 200 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 1: she made it here, then she would contacting me and 201 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 1: letting me know, but that she didn't, you know, want 202 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:36,840 Speaker 1: to botch people to find out about it. In Alaska, 203 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:39,120 Speaker 1: the family went about life as normal. They tried to 204 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:42,280 Speaker 1: fit into the local community and became regular parishioners at 205 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:45,560 Speaker 1: the local church. Their pastor even described them to the 206 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:50,320 Speaker 1: Dayton Daily News as quote good country people. We reached 207 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:52,480 Speaker 1: out to the pastor, who declined to speak with us. 208 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:56,360 Speaker 1: It was at this same church that Jake Wagner was 209 00:11:56,400 --> 00:12:01,560 Speaker 1: introduced to another churchgoer, Elizabeth Armor. The couple dated for 210 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:05,120 Speaker 1: several months, and then in March twenty eighteen, they got married. 211 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:08,720 Speaker 1: This is Jodi Barr. I've seen you know people I 212 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:12,280 Speaker 1: know lost his spouse. You know they're married again six months. 213 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:14,800 Speaker 1: If he's innocent and he got remarried, he wanted to 214 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:17,959 Speaker 1: carry on with his life, and you know, maybe that's it. 215 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:20,760 Speaker 1: But if he really is guilty of having a hand 216 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:23,720 Speaker 1: and killing eight people and one of those being the 217 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:26,560 Speaker 1: mother of his own child, and then he enters into 218 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:31,440 Speaker 1: valves with another woman within months of that, pooh, I 219 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:34,559 Speaker 1: don't know. I don't know what kind of person you're 220 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:38,000 Speaker 1: dealing with. Here here's Stephanie talking about what she learned 221 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:41,280 Speaker 1: by looking at Elizabeth Armour's Facebook posts. She took to 222 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 1: Facebook to let the world know just how dangerous being 223 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:47,320 Speaker 1: involved with the Wagners could be. Elizabeth said in one 224 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:49,840 Speaker 1: of her posts that God told her to come forward 225 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:53,440 Speaker 1: about her relationship with Jake Wagner. According to her posts, 226 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:56,680 Speaker 1: Elizabeth met Jake through the church and then was encouraged 227 00:12:56,679 --> 00:12:59,080 Speaker 1: to get to know him by her pastor. But she 228 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:01,600 Speaker 1: maintained that she had no idea that the Wagners were 229 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:04,720 Speaker 1: involved in such a large murder investigation, and when that 230 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:08,080 Speaker 1: news of the Rodent massacre came up, the pastor had 231 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:10,719 Speaker 1: vouched for the Wagoners, telling her that the charges were 232 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:14,360 Speaker 1: just slander against the family. However, in another post, she 233 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:17,239 Speaker 1: said she wanted to just be a mother to Sophia, 234 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:20,240 Speaker 1: but that she ended up marrying her worst nightmare. All 235 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:23,520 Speaker 1: of those posts have since been taken down. We've tried 236 00:13:23,559 --> 00:13:27,080 Speaker 1: to find her and contact her directly, and she's literally 237 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:34,120 Speaker 1: nowhere to be found. Then, in the spring of twenty eighteen, 238 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 1: two years after the Rodents were killed, the Wagner shocked 239 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:40,320 Speaker 1: everyone again, this time by returning to the piked In area. 240 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:45,120 Speaker 1: Our Wagner family relative explained why they decided to come 241 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:47,800 Speaker 1: home from what I like, I said, I have understood 242 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:49,320 Speaker 1: just from a little bit of that I thought to 243 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 1: Angela and then our family and jenneral talking. They had 244 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:58,280 Speaker 1: came back home because built family father got sick and 245 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:02,120 Speaker 1: they couldn't afford they were losing what's that home and 246 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 1: everything they had there in Alaska. So basically just like 247 00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:09,880 Speaker 1: it was a handful of that type of stuff. So 248 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:12,680 Speaker 1: they decided that they were going to come back down 249 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:15,720 Speaker 1: here and they were just gonna get everything basically situated here. 250 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:20,080 Speaker 1: Once that happened, and once they got back on their feet, 251 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:23,760 Speaker 1: basically then they were planning to go back. They wanted 252 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 1: to go back. Angela wanted to go back there. She 253 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:30,720 Speaker 1: made that clear to her father multiple times that that 254 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:33,320 Speaker 1: was going to be in place that they were. They 255 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:36,400 Speaker 1: were really looking forward. She lived in and just wanted 256 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:38,240 Speaker 1: to be there, but they had a bunch of stuff 257 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:40,520 Speaker 1: that they still had to take care of in order 258 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:44,600 Speaker 1: so that to happen. The move seemed to baffle everyone 259 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:48,400 Speaker 1: and piked in Here's local resident Auntie. If you think 260 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:53,560 Speaker 1: about it, the Wagners were scott free. They went to Alaska. 261 00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:55,800 Speaker 1: They could have took off and nobody could have ever 262 00:14:55,840 --> 00:15:00,240 Speaker 1: seen them again ever. But they came back here. Came 263 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 1: back now the way that I am. I would never 264 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:07,080 Speaker 1: do that. But if I had pulled something off like 265 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:09,960 Speaker 1: that and got away into that long and went to Alaska, 266 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:12,760 Speaker 1: you know, I'm packing my ship and I'm hitting the woods, 267 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:15,120 Speaker 1: and nobody's ever going to see me again, I'm sure 268 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 1: the hell not going to come back. The only way 269 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:20,000 Speaker 1: I would come back is if I thought my ass covered. 270 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:24,520 Speaker 1: Upon returning to Peyton, the Wagoners tried to fly under 271 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:27,200 Speaker 1: the radar and return to life as normal, but our 272 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 1: Wagner family relative told Jeff that their homecoming was anything 273 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 1: but welcome. When they came back, were people kind of 274 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:36,640 Speaker 1: like has the story died down? Or were people like, oh, 275 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 1: the Wagoners are back. It was probably quiet for about 276 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:42,960 Speaker 1: I don't know two or three weeks at that, and 277 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 1: then everybody toned out that they were back in town, 278 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:53,760 Speaker 1: and they just absolutely tortured daily. Everybody had started basically 279 00:15:53,800 --> 00:16:00,280 Speaker 1: attacking then the community, accusing them of murdering those paul 280 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 1: Like if they were in town and people identified um 281 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:08,520 Speaker 1: their vehicle, they would throw pot bottles at them. Angela 282 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:11,800 Speaker 1: had actually went into a store one day and some 283 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:16,040 Speaker 1: woman had actually flewed up behind Angela as she was 284 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:18,000 Speaker 1: coming back out of the store and through a glass 285 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:21,800 Speaker 1: key bottle after and it busted her in the back. 286 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:24,920 Speaker 1: She was constantly getting it was less than right, like 287 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:28,600 Speaker 1: anybody that knew them, or that knew our family, Like 288 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:30,960 Speaker 1: where we lived, and there was a handful of people 289 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:33,120 Speaker 1: that had drove by my house and then they were 290 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:34,840 Speaker 1: throwing stuff because I lived kind of right on the 291 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:37,400 Speaker 1: highway and my house is very easy to spot. I 292 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:40,120 Speaker 1: have no privacy, so when they I was getting trash, 293 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 1: people were throwing their trash out in my yard, in 294 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 1: my driveway. They were trying to hit us while we 295 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 1: were me and my son at the time. You know, 296 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:53,000 Speaker 1: they were just doing my workplace. My vehicle was parked 297 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:57,200 Speaker 1: outside and my vehicle got keyed. They had, of course 298 00:16:57,240 --> 00:16:59,480 Speaker 1: through ange on it all that type of stuff, wrote 299 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:03,000 Speaker 1: murderer on it. What I had absolutely nothing to do 300 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:07,280 Speaker 1: with any of that. As things began to unravel for 301 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:10,320 Speaker 1: the Wagner's law enforcement was tightening up the case against 302 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:12,640 Speaker 1: the family. It seemed like it was only a matter 303 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:16,040 Speaker 1: of time before they were arrested. Investigators now believe there 304 00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 1: were multiple attackers, as according to information from the Ohio 305 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:23,120 Speaker 1: Attorney General's office. The Ohio Attorney General says the investigation 306 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:26,200 Speaker 1: is progressing. Wine adds his office knows a lot more 307 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:28,800 Speaker 1: about what goes on in those Pike County hills. Now 308 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:31,200 Speaker 1: we know a lot more today. Have we cracked the phase? 309 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:34,399 Speaker 1: Have we come up with enough evidence to arrest someone 310 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:37,439 Speaker 1: and get them convicted? No, we have not, But we 311 00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:39,840 Speaker 1: made the rogress. Oh yeah, we made a lot of progress. 312 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:46,399 Speaker 1: On Halloween of twenty eighteen, authorities conducted yet another search 313 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:50,360 Speaker 1: on a Wagner family property, this time a farm formerly 314 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:54,879 Speaker 1: owned by Jake and George Wagner. During that raid, investigators 315 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:57,720 Speaker 1: uncovered a homemade silencer at the bottom of a well. 316 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:01,920 Speaker 1: It would seem to be the final piece of the 317 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:06,800 Speaker 1: puzzle for investigators. As we discussed in great detail in 318 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:10,639 Speaker 1: episode two. On November thirteenth, Angela and Billy Wagner, and 319 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 1: their two sons, Jake and George Wagner, were arrested for 320 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 1: the murders of eight members of the Rodent family. Can 321 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:19,159 Speaker 1: hear one We had major developments tonight in a bazaar 322 00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:21,879 Speaker 1: in tragic murder case. He took two and a half years, 323 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:25,080 Speaker 1: but arrests have finally been made in the Pike County massacre. 324 00:18:25,119 --> 00:18:28,439 Speaker 1: George Billy Wagner the third, he's forty seven. Also forty 325 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:31,359 Speaker 1: eight year old Angela Wagner, twenty seven year old George 326 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:34,040 Speaker 1: Wagner the fourth, and twenty six year old Edward Jake 327 00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:37,440 Speaker 1: Wagner are now facing charges. The Attorney General announced two 328 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:40,800 Speaker 1: more arrests of people accused of being involved in Angela's mother, 329 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:45,679 Speaker 1: Rita Nuga and Billy's mother Fredrika. We're also arrested today 330 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:56,720 Speaker 1: in conjunction with the cover up of these crops. We're 331 00:18:56,720 --> 00:18:58,720 Speaker 1: going to take a quick break here. We'll be back 332 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:01,600 Speaker 1: in a moment. Like many of us, you might think 333 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:04,760 Speaker 1: identity theft will never happen to you, but consider this. 334 00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:08,040 Speaker 1: There's a new identity theft victim every three seconds in 335 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:11,359 Speaker 1: the US. 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Angela Wagner's mother Rita Joe 389 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:48,919 Speaker 1: Nukam and Billy Wagner's mother, Frederica were both charged with 390 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:53,360 Speaker 1: obstruction of justice and perjury. Nucombe was also charged with forgery. 391 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:56,360 Speaker 1: All six of them pled not guilty, and our justice 392 00:22:56,359 --> 00:23:01,240 Speaker 1: system presumes innocence until guilt is proven at first blush, 393 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:03,840 Speaker 1: it seems far fetched to believe that these two grandmothers 394 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:06,600 Speaker 1: had a part in conspiring to pull off Ohio's largest 395 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:09,760 Speaker 1: mass murder. Jeff spoke with Mike Allen about the charges 396 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:13,480 Speaker 1: against Frederica Wagner. Frederica has been charged with the obstruction 397 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:15,960 Speaker 1: of justice and perjury, So how do you explain that 398 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:18,360 Speaker 1: to someone who, like me, who's never been to law 399 00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:20,840 Speaker 1: school or doesn't know what it means. Well, perjury is 400 00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:24,360 Speaker 1: pretty simple under Ohio law. It just basically says that 401 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:27,840 Speaker 1: you cannot knowingly make a false statement in an official 402 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 1: proceeding while you are under oath. It's real simple. And 403 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:36,040 Speaker 1: the obstructing justice is pretty simple as well. Ohio law 404 00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:40,840 Speaker 1: provides that you can't, with purpose to hinder the discovery, apprehension, 405 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:45,800 Speaker 1: or prosecution of a person, do anything that would assist 406 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:50,200 Speaker 1: someone in doing that, and that's one that that's charged 407 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:53,639 Speaker 1: pretty frequently. You don't see perjury charged a lot because 408 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:57,040 Speaker 1: it's so difficult to prove, but with convicted of both, 409 00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:03,040 Speaker 1: she would be facing four years match. Plainly stated prosecutors 410 00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:05,400 Speaker 1: think Frederica was lying to them and trying to hinder 411 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:08,480 Speaker 1: the investigation to cover up for her family. We'll get 412 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:12,000 Speaker 1: into the specifics of her charges later. For now here, Stephanie, 413 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:14,639 Speaker 1: followed by Jeff We wondered if there was anything in 414 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:18,240 Speaker 1: Frederica Wagner's past that could have indicated that she would 415 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:21,920 Speaker 1: be involved in something as gruesome as mass murder. As 416 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:24,000 Speaker 1: we know, the Wagners were a well known and well 417 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 1: to do family in the Piketon area, and Frederica Wagner 418 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:29,320 Speaker 1: was at the helm of this. A self described entrepreneur, 419 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 1: she owned properties Oliver Pike County that spanned over seventeen 420 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:35,440 Speaker 1: hundred acres and were valued at more than four million dollars. 421 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:39,280 Speaker 1: She had also founded two nonprofits, Lucasville Mission, a church 422 00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:42,639 Speaker 1: that helps underprivileged children, and the Crystal Springs Home, a 423 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:47,200 Speaker 1: facility that provides services to developmentally disabled adults. As we've 424 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:50,680 Speaker 1: learned throughout the series, Frederica had her detractors as well 425 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:54,000 Speaker 1: as her supporters in the community. Growing up, Christina Howard 426 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:56,159 Speaker 1: spent a lot of time with Frederica. In fact, her 427 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:58,840 Speaker 1: mom worked at the Crystal Springs Home. She was pretty 428 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:03,199 Speaker 1: well known by everybody, and if she wasn't doing a 429 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:07,639 Speaker 1: charity or something outside of church since she was doing 430 00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:11,359 Speaker 1: one in church. She owed over two hundred acres of 431 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:16,720 Speaker 1: land and a lot of people that lived on her 432 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:20,399 Speaker 1: property that she ranted out to. She would say, hey, 433 00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:23,480 Speaker 1: you know, if you come to church, then I won't 434 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:26,280 Speaker 1: charge you a diamond root. And all she ever asked 435 00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:29,000 Speaker 1: of him was for them to go to church. She 436 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:32,200 Speaker 1: was always nice to me grown up. She's never yelled 437 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:36,440 Speaker 1: at me. She's never really told me no. There would 438 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:39,440 Speaker 1: be times that I would go to work with mom 439 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:42,720 Speaker 1: and I would just hang out at Freddy's all day 440 00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:45,160 Speaker 1: long while my mom was working, you know, I would 441 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:49,959 Speaker 1: just hang out, feed the horses, giving masks, rush them. 442 00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:53,440 Speaker 1: She was literally like a grandma to me grown up. 443 00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 1: The Ray paints a similar portrait of Frederica. She told 444 00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:01,159 Speaker 1: us about the pastoral surroundings of her grandmother's Flying w 445 00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:04,679 Speaker 1: farms and her family's legacy in the area. If you 446 00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:08,200 Speaker 1: go to their house, you go eighty eight miles out 447 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:11,800 Speaker 1: of Cincinnati east on thirty three, and I'm telling you 448 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:15,200 Speaker 1: you were in the hills, the Appalachian Hills of Ohio 449 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:18,080 Speaker 1: at this time. Then all of a sudden, you'll see 450 00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:21,480 Speaker 1: something to the right. It looks like a real nice entryway. 451 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:25,159 Speaker 1: It's flying w farms on it. And you look you 452 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:29,040 Speaker 1: see a trailer sitting right next to the entrance, a 453 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:33,439 Speaker 1: nice entrance with wrought iron gates. It's got flying w's 454 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:36,879 Speaker 1: on it. Then you look aways up you see all 455 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:40,480 Speaker 1: these little houses, some of them were catteries. And then 456 00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:43,040 Speaker 1: she's got the pighouse, and then she's got the old 457 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:45,840 Speaker 1: walking horse barn, and then she's got the shop. Then 458 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:50,720 Speaker 1: you come to her her colonial style home, and it's 459 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:55,280 Speaker 1: a very homey feeling. When you walk into the home, 460 00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:58,680 Speaker 1: you feel like you're going home. And I see all 461 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:03,240 Speaker 1: my grandmother's cat like little statues around and pictures of 462 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:07,080 Speaker 1: the kids on the horses, pictures of all their famous horses. 463 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:09,520 Speaker 1: She developed a breed of horse called the George and 464 00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 1: Grande that she named after my uncle, which she takes 465 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:15,960 Speaker 1: no credits for the horses. Is what the driving passion 466 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:19,919 Speaker 1: was for Frederick and Bold to be together, stay together, 467 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:24,720 Speaker 1: work together, because that's the problem I think with people 468 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:28,920 Speaker 1: who get married today. Okay, so it's natural to want 469 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:31,240 Speaker 1: to have relationships. It's naturally who want to have kids 470 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:34,199 Speaker 1: when you're young. All those hormones in your head. But 471 00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:38,000 Speaker 1: to keep you together, you better have something solid in 472 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:42,120 Speaker 1: common that you have to work with together to keep 473 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:45,960 Speaker 1: your family, leaving them a legacy. And that's what Frederica 474 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:50,240 Speaker 1: Wagner did for her kids. Her and Bob developed a 475 00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:55,080 Speaker 1: breed of horse. Over years, they have a two thousand 476 00:27:55,160 --> 00:28:00,480 Speaker 1: acre farm. They had three kiads and they left them. See, 477 00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:03,800 Speaker 1: you know, we're not talking about people who are trained murderers. 478 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:06,560 Speaker 1: We're talking about real people here. They had who had real, 479 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:14,120 Speaker 1: honest and goodness, godfearing lives. Frederica Wagner's attorney described her 480 00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:17,080 Speaker 1: as a godfearing woman who taught Sunday school for nearly 481 00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:19,159 Speaker 1: half a century and lived about as close to the 482 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:23,080 Speaker 1: cross as anyone can. We all struggled with this contradiction 483 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:26,240 Speaker 1: in Frederico Wagner. How could this sweet grandmother, who was 484 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:29,320 Speaker 1: charitable and kind be involved in any capacity with the 485 00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:32,159 Speaker 1: murder of eight people. So we decided to look a 486 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 1: little deeper into Pikedon's most giving resident, and what we 487 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:38,920 Speaker 1: found was not all virtuous. Jodi Barr filled us in 488 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:44,400 Speaker 1: after the world became familiar with the Wagner family. You know, 489 00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:48,240 Speaker 1: of course, reporters start digging into their backgrounds, and it's 490 00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:50,600 Speaker 1: just some of the things that come out. You learn 491 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:54,280 Speaker 1: about the business dealings, and you know what Frederica, you know, 492 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:56,840 Speaker 1: is accused of doing in the past. This is good 493 00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:00,480 Speaker 1: background information to have when you're trying to understand who 494 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:02,960 Speaker 1: these people are. But I have to say, when I 495 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:05,560 Speaker 1: was on the ground in Pike County, Ohio, when I 496 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:08,920 Speaker 1: was hearing their names, when I went by Flying w Farm, 497 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 1: I mean, it is a peaceful, quaint farm tucked into 498 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:16,760 Speaker 1: the rolling hills of eastern Ohio. When you drive by there, 499 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:20,200 Speaker 1: nothing on the surface points to anything that's been alledged 500 00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:22,680 Speaker 1: now that any of the people involved in any of 501 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:26,800 Speaker 1: this could have been involved in the killing of eight people. 502 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:30,520 Speaker 1: That's the beauty of investigations, I guess, is that you 503 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:33,240 Speaker 1: just don't know the whole story until you know the 504 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:43,560 Speaker 1: whole story. Let's stop here for another quick break. We'll 505 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:46,040 Speaker 1: be back in a moment. Since her role as White 506 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:49,600 Speaker 1: House correspondent, Caitlyn Collins has never been afraid todict deep. 507 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:53,280 Speaker 1: She's a reliable, deeply sourced reporter and is always willing 508 00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:56,240 Speaker 1: to hold the powerful accountable. On her new CNN show 509 00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,520 Speaker 1: The Source, with Caitlyn Collins. Caitlyn is bringing that tenacious 510 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:02,880 Speaker 1: spirit a primetime. She's chasing the facts, connecting with her 511 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:05,600 Speaker 1: rolodex of sources, and pulling the threads of a story 512 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,520 Speaker 1: together right up to the minute she goes live, so 513 00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:11,480 Speaker 1: viewers are getting the very latest the Source with Caitlin 514 00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:16,680 Speaker 1: Collins weeknights at nine pm Eastern only on Sanna. 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It's MELANIAF stem cells encapsulated for freshness and 560 00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:58,480 Speaker 1: released onto the skin to support a visible reduction in 561 00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:01,840 Speaker 1: the appearance of wrinkles. With thousands of glowing five star reviews, 562 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:04,280 Speaker 1: why not give it a try. Subscribe today and you 563 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:07,160 Speaker 1: can get the amazing Meaningful Beauty system for just forty 564 00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:10,680 Speaker 1: nine ninety five That includes our introductory five piece system, 565 00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:14,440 Speaker 1: free gifts, free shipping, and a sixty day money back guarantee. 566 00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:29,560 Speaker 1: All of that available at meaningful beauty dot com. Let's 567 00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:32,880 Speaker 1: start with Flying W Farms. The farm breeds horses as 568 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:35,720 Speaker 1: well as dogs and pigs typically found in New Zealand. 569 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:39,440 Speaker 1: In the nineteen nineties, Frederica got into legal trouble with 570 00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:42,200 Speaker 1: a group of customers surrounding the sale of these pigs. 571 00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:45,600 Speaker 1: Here's Mike Allen again. She was sued by a group 572 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:48,960 Speaker 1: of customers. I guess the allegation was that her place, 573 00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:51,520 Speaker 1: I think it was the Flying w it didn't meet 574 00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:56,120 Speaker 1: the standards promise for the sale of exotic animals, which 575 00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:59,640 Speaker 1: is interesting. I guess the group said that she defrauded 576 00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:02,480 Speaker 1: them in the sales. They gave them some animals that 577 00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:07,680 Speaker 1: didn't match the advertised description. Dana Rodin's friend Becky told 578 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:10,520 Speaker 1: Jeff that Flying W Farms had been whispered about and 579 00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:12,880 Speaker 1: piked in for years. At one point in time, you know, 580 00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:15,840 Speaker 1: Frederica was a person to be feared in the county 581 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:18,279 Speaker 1: because there was always rumors. I don't know exactly what 582 00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:20,440 Speaker 1: all the rumors was, but everybody's like, oh, you don't 583 00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:22,520 Speaker 1: want to get back there by things happen to people 584 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:24,279 Speaker 1: that go back here. So you know, I stayed away 585 00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:28,840 Speaker 1: from our area. Wait back, where's farm? Because I've always 586 00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:31,279 Speaker 1: heard about things about it, So yeah, I said where 587 00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:37,919 Speaker 1: I would never go piked in local Barbara told Jeff 588 00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:41,920 Speaker 1: about one rumor in particular, they made their money in 589 00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:46,799 Speaker 1: horses and miniature horses. And there's some shady dealings that 590 00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:49,920 Speaker 1: I've heard about going on there, like them stuff and 591 00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:53,359 Speaker 1: the horses with drugs and sending them back and forth 592 00:34:53,400 --> 00:35:00,239 Speaker 1: to Mexico and you know, just awful things like that. Now, 593 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:03,120 Speaker 1: we obviously can't prove that, but it's worth mentioning because 594 00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:05,200 Speaker 1: it's this type of thing that people in Pike didn't 595 00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:08,120 Speaker 1: like to whisper about. One thing we should talk about 596 00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:11,680 Speaker 1: is this quote unquote life changing rent to own operation 597 00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:16,000 Speaker 1: Frederica Wagner, designed to help lower income residents. Over the decades, 598 00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:19,520 Speaker 1: Frederica Wagner entered into at least one hundred and thirty 599 00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:23,279 Speaker 1: two land installment contracts. Now, these contracts basically allowed the 600 00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:27,320 Speaker 1: Wagners to retain deeds on land as buyers attempted to 601 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:29,840 Speaker 1: pay off the principle and the interest. The idea was 602 00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:32,839 Speaker 1: that if the buyers made all of their payments, they'd 603 00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:36,760 Speaker 1: eventually become landowners, but it rarely played out that way. 604 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:39,680 Speaker 1: In fact, as it turns out, only twelve of those 605 00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:43,440 Speaker 1: contracts were actually satisfied, twelve out of one hundred and 606 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:46,480 Speaker 1: thirty two. And in looking into all of the deals, 607 00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:50,160 Speaker 1: nearly eighty percent of them were ultimately terminated without a 608 00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:55,280 Speaker 1: corresponding d transfer, and that basically indicates despite somebody making payments, 609 00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:58,120 Speaker 1: at the end of the day, the land stayed in 610 00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:02,960 Speaker 1: Frederica Wagner's possession. There are countless examples of soured deals 611 00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:05,960 Speaker 1: just like that, where people really did feel that Frederica 612 00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:09,279 Speaker 1: Wagner took advantage of them. And again, does that mean 613 00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:12,440 Speaker 1: that she was involved with a mass murder, of course not, 614 00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:15,839 Speaker 1: but it does point to character, which I do think 615 00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:18,719 Speaker 1: is valuable. Yeah, there was one tenant quoted in the 616 00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:21,840 Speaker 1: story saying that Frederica had raised her rent by twenty 617 00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:25,600 Speaker 1: five percent following the murders in twenty sixteen, and another 618 00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:28,759 Speaker 1: described his rental property as a one room home with 619 00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:31,560 Speaker 1: an exposed toilet standing just a few feet from the 620 00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:34,360 Speaker 1: foot of his bed. Again, this doesn't prove their guilt, 621 00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:37,120 Speaker 1: but it does speak to the type of woman Frederica was, 622 00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:39,880 Speaker 1: or at least how the public perceived her at the time. 623 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:45,359 Speaker 1: I spoke to attorney my Gallon about Frederica's land deal 624 00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:48,160 Speaker 1: contracts when I was in piped and I spoke to 625 00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:52,360 Speaker 1: some people and these are just personal accounts, but saying, 626 00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:56,439 Speaker 1: you know, my family rented land, ended it for years 627 00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:58,280 Speaker 1: and years and years, and then had it pulled out, 628 00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:01,640 Speaker 1: which I mean, the court seems to back that up. 629 00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:05,000 Speaker 1: But yeah, land contracts are tough, and you know, for 630 00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:08,760 Speaker 1: the person who is not the owner of the property 631 00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:10,600 Speaker 1: but the person trying to buy it, there are a 632 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:14,560 Speaker 1: lot of pitfalls with it, and someone smart, which apparently 633 00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:17,920 Speaker 1: Frederica was, they can take advantage of people in a 634 00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:23,960 Speaker 1: land contract situation. Frederica also runs a nonprofit called Crystal Springs, 635 00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:28,040 Speaker 1: a group home that provides housing and rehabilitation services to 636 00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:32,680 Speaker 1: developmentally disabled adults, and according to some when her son 637 00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:36,240 Speaker 1: Billy married Angela Nucom who we now know as Angela Wagner, 638 00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:39,880 Speaker 1: Frederica wasn't happy about it. Christina Howard told us that 639 00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:43,200 Speaker 1: the relationship between Frederica Wagner and her daughter in law 640 00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:46,719 Speaker 1: always seemed contentious. She never really had much to do 641 00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:50,720 Speaker 1: with Angela unless they come to Billy and it's grown 642 00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:54,440 Speaker 1: up by her. Freddie called Angela like an evil woman 643 00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:58,480 Speaker 1: or tom or two like a nasty woman. One time 644 00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:05,160 Speaker 1: Angela tro to keep Freddy from seeing her grandkids, George 645 00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:07,960 Speaker 1: and Jake because they was talking about moving away. In 646 00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:11,600 Speaker 1: all this, and I never heard Freddie say that she 647 00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:14,640 Speaker 1: hated anybody, but she said, you know, like, oh, I 648 00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:19,000 Speaker 1: really disliked this woman. She's just a nasty woman. Perhaps 649 00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:23,040 Speaker 1: Frederica Wagner has reason to be suspicious of Angela. Christina 650 00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:27,239 Speaker 1: Howard gave Stephanie her thoughts on Angela Wagner. Angela, she 651 00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:30,040 Speaker 1: does have a little bit of a shady for sad tour, 652 00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:33,279 Speaker 1: Like you feel like there's more tour than meets the 653 00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:37,480 Speaker 1: eye and stuff. Like on the outside she's all happy 654 00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:41,759 Speaker 1: thoughts with anybody and everything else, But you just get 655 00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:48,720 Speaker 1: a vibe from her, you know that there's more to it. 656 00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:51,680 Speaker 1: It turns out that this seemingly devoted, hard working mother 657 00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:54,440 Speaker 1: had a bit of a checkered past. In two thousand 658 00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:58,120 Speaker 1: and one, Angela Wagner, along with Billy Wagner, were charged 659 00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:02,080 Speaker 1: with improperly handling a fire, and in twenty twelve, they 660 00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:05,120 Speaker 1: are both charged with receiving stolen property, which is a 661 00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:09,920 Speaker 1: fifth grae felony. Jodi Barr put the Wagner family's criminal 662 00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:14,960 Speaker 1: history into context for us. You're looking at improperly handling 663 00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:18,280 Speaker 1: a firearm charges. When you look at those two charges, 664 00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:22,800 Speaker 1: in even the details that were reported to support those charges, 665 00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:25,040 Speaker 1: I'm back to where I was in the rest of 666 00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:28,600 Speaker 1: the Waggoner's background when you look at this as a whole, 667 00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:32,200 Speaker 1: across the course of their lives. The charges of improperly 668 00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:36,320 Speaker 1: handling a firearm, I mean those charges came fifteen years 669 00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:39,840 Speaker 1: before these murders. It was an alleged road rage. You know, 670 00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:43,640 Speaker 1: there was a gun pulled out, but the charges are dismissed. 671 00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:47,080 Speaker 1: No one got hurt. I mean that is something that 672 00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:50,960 Speaker 1: I see multiple times a week, alleged police reports. The 673 00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:54,680 Speaker 1: charge of receiving stolen property came four years before these murders. 674 00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:58,200 Speaker 1: When you look at the criminal record, nothing in this 675 00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:02,560 Speaker 1: says to me that got murderers in the hills of 676 00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:06,360 Speaker 1: Pike County, Ohio. I mean, this could be your neighbor 677 00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:12,760 Speaker 1: next door with these charges. Here again, is Frederica's niece Deray, 678 00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:15,440 Speaker 1: reading a news article about her aunt's involvement in the 679 00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:18,960 Speaker 1: Rodent murders. So let me summarize it for you. On 680 00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:23,200 Speaker 1: November the thirteenth, twenty and eighteen, the Ohio Governor elect 681 00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:30,040 Speaker 1: Mighty Wine held an internationally broadcast news conference and announced 682 00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:33,800 Speaker 1: the arrest of Frederica Wagner and several of her family members. 683 00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:39,520 Speaker 1: Governor Dwine accused Frederica's family members of the Rodents homicides, 684 00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:44,359 Speaker 1: and he specifically accused Frederica of masterminding the cover up. 685 00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:48,239 Speaker 1: When I heard that, I wanted to call him up 686 00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:50,800 Speaker 1: and tell him that there was no way and that 687 00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:55,040 Speaker 1: someday you will have to apologize to my aunt. I 688 00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:57,880 Speaker 1: do not know who came up with that theory and 689 00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:03,719 Speaker 1: tried to put it out there. That is someone with 690 00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:08,200 Speaker 1: an evil mind. I think that that it's that it's 691 00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:12,520 Speaker 1: the devil trying trying to test us, because there's no 692 00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:18,960 Speaker 1: way possible that Frederick could ever do something like that. Ever, 693 00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:24,200 Speaker 1: she is not that kind of person. She carries the 694 00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:30,560 Speaker 1: life of Jesus with her everywhere she goes, and I 695 00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:33,520 Speaker 1: am I am, I am convicted on that there's no 696 00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:35,560 Speaker 1: way she would have ever done something like that. Ever, 697 00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:43,080 Speaker 1: the idea that the entire Wagner family allegedly conspired to 698 00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:46,120 Speaker 1: kill the Rodents and cold Blood still baffles Jodie Barr 699 00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:48,400 Speaker 1: to this day. Now. I think that is the common 700 00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:52,760 Speaker 1: theme of this entire story about Pike County and about 701 00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:56,440 Speaker 1: this Rodent massacre. Is it things just too far fetched 702 00:41:56,520 --> 00:41:58,560 Speaker 1: out when you try to connect the dots through the 703 00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:02,440 Speaker 1: histories of you know, how the Wagoners conducted their business, 704 00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:05,120 Speaker 1: how they lived their lives. I don't know that I 705 00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:08,440 Speaker 1: have seen any reporting, any fact brought out about the 706 00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:11,440 Speaker 1: Waggoners that would say, Yep, there you go, mass murderers. 707 00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:15,080 Speaker 1: I think that is the draw that continues to keep 708 00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:18,840 Speaker 1: people interested in this story, is that you would have 709 00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:24,560 Speaker 1: never seen any of this coming. I don't know what 710 00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:28,440 Speaker 1: a family capable of a mass murder would look like 711 00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:31,239 Speaker 1: or how they would conduct their business. But this was 712 00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:36,440 Speaker 1: out of nowhere. It's still just hard to believe. On 713 00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:40,400 Speaker 1: June twenty six, twenty nineteen, Frederico Wagner headed into a 714 00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:43,799 Speaker 1: Pike County courtroom for a pre child hearing, with Frederica 715 00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:47,320 Speaker 1: sitting in the defendant's chair. There was a stunning courtroom revelation. 716 00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:50,840 Speaker 1: Charges against the grandmother connected to the Rhodent family massacre 717 00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:53,920 Speaker 1: have been dismissed. It was dismissed because I was innocent. 718 00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:59,640 Speaker 1: They had no evidence against me. Well, grandmother Frederico Wagner 719 00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:01,279 Speaker 1: might be out of the woods. The rest of her 720 00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:03,960 Speaker 1: family await their day in court, where a stunning number 721 00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:07,200 Speaker 1: of truths promised to be exposed. It searched for the truth. 722 00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:10,200 Speaker 1: I believe that as it applies to this case, the 723 00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:13,600 Speaker 1: mystery will be solved. The truth will eventually be discovered. 724 00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:18,920 Speaker 1: Hannah was struggling to keep custody of Sobia Tavvy. Straight up, 725 00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:22,240 Speaker 1: TOLDERI we a say presenting with papers, do not sign 726 00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:25,080 Speaker 1: them because they will, sure you will. You've got to 727 00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:27,760 Speaker 1: wonder who is this informant, because if it's a member 728 00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:30,880 Speaker 1: of the Wagoner family. I think that's a twist no 729 00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:41,680 Speaker 1: one saw coming. More on that next week. Reach out 730 00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:44,480 Speaker 1: to us on our social media outlets with questions. We're 731 00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:47,799 Speaker 1: on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter at piked in Massacre. We 732 00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:50,880 Speaker 1: look forward to answering your questions and upcoming bonus episodes. 733 00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:56,400 Speaker 1: Piked In Massacre is executive produced by Stephanie Lydecker and 734 00:43:56,480 --> 00:44:00,319 Speaker 1: me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed by executive Sir 735 00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:04,640 Speaker 1: Jared Aston. Additional producing by Jeff Shane and Andrew Becker. 736 00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:08,759 Speaker 1: The pikedon. Massacre is a production of iHeartRadio and Katie Studios. 737 00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:13,520 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 738 00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:22,080 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Smart journalism, 739 00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:26,560 Speaker 1: fascinating topics. 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This was a mother's 758 00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:37,000 Speaker 1: worst nightmare, and we'll stop at nothing. I knew something 759 00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:39,600 Speaker 1: better at than for the children they love. I was 760 00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:43,120 Speaker 1: so scared, and that's when all hell breaks loose. Mother Undercover. 761 00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:46,359 Speaker 1: I wanted him to know you mess with the wrong mother. 762 00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:53,640 Speaker 1: Now streaming only on Hulu search Mother Undercover. Hey, California, 763 00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:58,800 Speaker 1: listen up, Hi, mom My, Papa, thy Daddy or extra Caltuns. 764 00:45:58,840 --> 00:46:02,319 Speaker 1: On the freewood right next to speeding cars? Why are 765 00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:06,520 Speaker 1: you driving so fast? Please be careful? F my um 766 00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:10,560 Speaker 1: all out there, slow down, pay attention. How would you 767 00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:15,359 Speaker 1: feel follows your family? Be Alert works an alert brought 768 00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:17,480 Speaker 1: to you by Here's a cow trance