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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A boyfriend claims murder was

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Speaker 1: really just rough sex. That's the defense. This after bounty

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Speaker 1: hunters and US marshals chase this guy McLeod all the

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Speaker 1: way around the world after he murders a beautiful young mom.

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Speaker 1: Now he tells me it was quote rough sex, sex

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Speaker 1: gone wrong. Really A little girl is left without her

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Speaker 1: mother because of sex gone wrong. I'm Nancy Grace. This

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Speaker 1: is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 2: A gorgeous thirty year old is excited to travel to

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Speaker 2: San Diego with her new boyfriend. Little did she know

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Speaker 2: that would be her final trick.

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Speaker 1: Christa was a visitor in San Diego. She loves San Diego.

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Speaker 3: And she came here frequently from Phoenix, and her last

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Speaker 3: word about San Diego was, Mom, I'm going to move there.

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Speaker 3: She didn't know she was going to be killed here,

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Speaker 3: and so I have so many memories of her coming

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Speaker 3: to San Diego. I have a lot of things hanging

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Speaker 3: in my house and cuts and stuff.

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Speaker 1: Because she loves Santiego. She was a lovely mother.

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Speaker 3: She was beautiful evenside out, she was beautiful, and she

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Speaker 3: was a single mom. Unsuspecting of this man who She

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Speaker 3: was a property manager and this man came by to

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Speaker 3: get an apartment, and that's how they met. He came

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Speaker 3: across as a doting dad. And that's one thing she

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Speaker 3: said was he loves his son.

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Speaker 1: He absolutely loves his son.

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Speaker 3: And that was a quality that every single mom out

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Speaker 3: there will look for, is a man who loves his child.

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Speaker 1: You are hearing Crystal's mother who is left with nothing

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Speaker 1: but memories of her. And now this purp says it

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Speaker 1: was sex gone wrong. Have you ever heard anything more

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Speaker 1: disrespectful to a crime victim than it was sex gone wrong?

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Speaker 1: Can I tell you something about Crystal's mother, Josephine. She

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Speaker 1: devotes her life trying to track this purp down all

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Speaker 1: around the world, trying to find him. With me right

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Speaker 1: now is Crystal's mother Josephine Winsol, former police detective and

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Speaker 1: now author of two books, one of them The Chase

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Speaker 1: in Hot Pursuit of My Daughter's Killer and The Capture

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Speaker 1: Six Year Hot Pursuit ends six years. She chased him,

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Speaker 1: only for him to land in court and claim it

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Speaker 1: was sex gone wrong. I've never heard anything so repulsive

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Speaker 1: and disrespectful in my life. Josephine also in her grief,

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Speaker 1: created angelsof Justice dot Org to help other people. That's

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Speaker 1: who she is, Josephine. I'm going to backtrack through finding

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Speaker 1: this guy tracking him down. But what is happening right now?

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Speaker 1: When did you first hear the words sex gone wrong?

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Speaker 4: Actually, when the prosecutor had warned me about it and

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Speaker 4: said that was going to be their defense, and I

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Speaker 4: wasn't exactly sure how it was going to come out

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Speaker 4: in court, and so really that's when I've heard it

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Speaker 4: was when Lee went to court last week.

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Speaker 1: Also joining me, Cheryl McCollum, forensic expert and founder of

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Speaker 1: the Cold Case Research Institute, star of a hit series

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Speaker 1: Zone seven. I haven't heard this as a legitimate Well,

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Speaker 1: it's not legitimate, but advanced as if it were a

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Speaker 1: legitimate defense. Since Robert Chambers, the so called preppy killer.

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Speaker 1: Do you remember that case where he raped and murdered

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Speaker 1: a girl and actually argued it was her fault that

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Speaker 1: she wanted to quote rough sex. Do you recall that?

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Speaker 5: Oh?

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Speaker 6: Absolutely, So he cannot explain the level of injury to

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Speaker 6: that victim, She cannot explain the rape, so he has

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Speaker 6: to say, well, yeah, I had sex with her. That's

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Speaker 6: why the evidence was there and she wanted it rough.

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Speaker 6: That's why there's injury to her throat. That's what he

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Speaker 6: claimed happened in a public part.

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Speaker 1: Now we always say the preppy killer, Robert Chambers. The

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Speaker 1: victim's name was Jennifer Levin. I'm curious because won't you

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Speaker 1: agree with me, Cheryl, that we always talk about him

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Speaker 1: Robert Chambers. Nobody even remembers the victim's name.

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Speaker 6: We do that, but I also think it's important to

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Speaker 6: repeat his name so that other people are aware of

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Speaker 6: this person, so they also know to come forward. Perhaps

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Speaker 6: they were a victim as well. So again in this case,

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Speaker 6: I think it's important to keep naming him, keep showing

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Speaker 6: his photograph.

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Speaker 3: Everything was right about him. He was stable, he was

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Speaker 3: a US Marine. Crystal's sister is a US Marine. There

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Speaker 3: was nothing to alert her that he was a terrible person.

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Speaker 3: And so when she came out here, and I remember

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Speaker 3: that night when I got that phone call, I mean.

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Speaker 1: This is you know.

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Speaker 3: I've been on the side where I had to give

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Speaker 3: the message to parents sometimes I didn't want to get

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Speaker 3: the message that their child has been murdered.

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Speaker 1: And I'm on this side, and I received that message

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Speaker 1: that night Josephine, When did you learn that something horrible

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Speaker 1: had happened?

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Speaker 4: It was that day when I woke up that morning

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Speaker 4: and I knew that something felt wrong and I wasn't

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Speaker 4: sure what it was. And when I tried to reach her,

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Speaker 4: you know, because her kids were with me, she wasn't

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Speaker 4: responding at all, And that's when I started feeling like

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Speaker 4: something was wrong, because there's no way she wouldn't have

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Speaker 4: to responded, especially with her kids being here. She would

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Speaker 4: be always checking in on them. So I knew that

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Speaker 4: something was wrong. And we had gotten the phone call

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Speaker 4: that evening when my husband kept trying to reach her,

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Speaker 4: texting her telling her, call your mom, she's freaking out here.

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Speaker 4: She's not hearing from you. And that's when the phone

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Speaker 4: call came in from the detective who was investigating the

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Speaker 4: scene at the moment, and then he saw the calls

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Speaker 4: were coming in, so he took time off to return

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Speaker 4: the call and told my husband that she was dead.

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Speaker 1: So at this time, both of her children were with you,

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Speaker 1: and when she did not call to check in on them,

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Speaker 1: you knew something was wrong. When you got the message,

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Speaker 1: What did you do?

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Speaker 4: I just screamed, I covered my ears.

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Speaker 7: And I don't know why I covered my ears, but

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Speaker 7: I covered my ears, and I just kept screaming and

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Speaker 7: screaming and screaming, dropped to the floor and screaming, and

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Speaker 7: you know, my sister kept saying, call the ambulance because

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Speaker 7: I just couldn't breathe.

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Speaker 1: I was just so great, a mom of two beautiful children.

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Speaker 1: Why did she have to die? She checked the guy out,

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Speaker 1: She ran a credit report on him. She thought he

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Speaker 1: could be the one. But what she didn't know was this.

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Speaker 8: McCloud had prior violence against two of his previous wives.

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Speaker 8: He had a bending twenty sixteen Faladi case and riverside

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Speaker 8: for strangling one of his wives. A roommate interrupted the

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Speaker 8: woman being strangled. That's set the scene for what would

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Speaker 8: be a deadly trip to San Diego, California.

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Speaker 1: This is the alleged killer who is now claiming that

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Speaker 1: it was simply sex gone wrong, like that's some kind

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Speaker 1: of a defense. Joining me an all star panel to

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Speaker 1: make sense of what we are learning right now. In

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Speaker 1: addition to Crystal's mother, Josephine Winsel, who has dedicated her

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Speaker 1: life to tracking this guy down all the way around

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Speaker 1: the world, Cyril McCollum founder director Cold Case Research Institute.

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Speaker 1: Joining me now is Lauren Conlin, investigative reporter and co

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Speaker 1: host of Primetime Crime on YouTube and at Popcrime Dot TV. Lauren,

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Speaker 1: What happened? Nancy?

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Speaker 9: Crystal Mitchell and Raymond McLeod were visiting a friend of

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Speaker 9: his in San Diego, California, and on the night of

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Speaker 9: June tenth, twenty sixteen, they decide that they want to

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Speaker 9: go out to a bar after their friends.

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Speaker 4: Go to sleep.

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Speaker 1: At the bar that night.

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Speaker 9: Raymond McLeod gets into an argument with another ex marine

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Speaker 9: at the bar.

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Speaker 1: It turns out.

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Speaker 9: After allegedly the marine saw Raymond McLeod raise a hand

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Speaker 9: to Crystal. Now, at this point, the two men get

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Speaker 9: into an altercation and they are all three kicked out

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Speaker 9: of the bar. Crystal Mitchell and Raymond McLeod go home

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Speaker 9: back to the Allied Gardens apartment complex and there captured

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Speaker 9: on surveillance footage is Raymond McLeod shoving Crystal Mitchell into

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Speaker 9: the elevator.

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Speaker 6: By the throat.

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Speaker 9: Now, that night, the friend of Raymond MacLeod, his wife,

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Speaker 9: heard Crystal yell, She heard a scream, and then she

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Speaker 9: heard silence.

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Speaker 1: He's got hands like two Virginia Hams. Can you imagine

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Speaker 1: him heating Crystal in public at a bar. If he

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Speaker 1: would do that to her in public, what would he

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Speaker 1: do to her behind closed doors? Listen to what San

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Speaker 1: Diego District Attorney Summer Stephan has to say. In nine

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Speaker 1: to one.

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Speaker 10: One call brought police to an apartment in Allied Garden,

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Speaker 10: San Diego, where Crystal's body was found. There were clear

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Speaker 10: signs of a struggle and Crystal had numerous injuries. There

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Speaker 10: was bluntfours trauma, including to her face and torso. McLoud

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Speaker 10: had brutally strangled stole to death, choking the very life

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Speaker 10: out of her. There were multiple fractures to her neck area.

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Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 3: The children were staying with us on vacation when that happened.

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Speaker 3: And that morning I woke up and I knew there

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Speaker 3: was something wrong. I felt there was something wrong, and

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Speaker 3: I wasn't sure what it was. And when we reached

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Speaker 3: out and tried to speak with her, she never responded.

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Speaker 3: And then it was that call that night. But I'm

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Speaker 3: just appealing to the public. I mean, we have America's

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Speaker 3: best behind me, we have one of the greatest team

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Speaker 3: there is, but sometimes best is not good enough. Sometimes

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Speaker 3: we just need more. And I'm appealing to the public.

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Speaker 1: As I was saying earlier, this guy's hands looked like

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Speaker 1: to Virginia Ham's. Is this guy on steroids? Josephine winsl Yes,

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Speaker 1: he was.

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Speaker 4: He was on steroids, and that night he was wearing

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Speaker 4: a lot of big rings on his fingers, according to witness.

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Speaker 1: Which would make any blow to her worst. I want

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Speaker 1: to talk about his steroid use, which is obvious to

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Speaker 1: everybody that sees him. Joining me, doctor pre Advantage Board

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Speaker 1: Certified Forensic Pathologist, an atomic Pathologists at Anchor Forensic Pathology Consulting,

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Speaker 1: Doctor pre Avantergy, thank you for being with us. What

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Speaker 1: are steroids and what do they do to your body?

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Speaker 11: We're talking about anabolic steroids or steroids two that are abuse,

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Speaker 11: so illegal steroids. These are drugs that mimic testosterone and

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Speaker 11: really give you that beefed up look that he's achieved.

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Speaker 11: This is not what normal hormones do for you.

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Speaker 4: So he's you know, juicing.

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Speaker 11: We've heard various lay terms for it.

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Speaker 1: But what they do is they also cause rage.

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Speaker 11: This is much higher level of testosterone like hormones in

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Speaker 11: the body, and so that's what we see.

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Speaker 4: We see not.

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Speaker 11: Only the bulked up muscles, but there's many many side effects,

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Speaker 11: including a lot of anger.

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Speaker 4: You hear it called roid range.

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Speaker 1: But what does it do to your internal organs like

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Speaker 1: your heart? I mean, because we always hear of people

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Speaker 1: dying at early ages body builders and similar professions. They

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Speaker 1: keel over, what does it do to you?

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Speaker 11: So having this elevated testosterone accelerates heart disease. They're pumping iron,

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Speaker 11: so they're pushing their body to the like extreme limits

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Speaker 11: against stressing the heart. They can get liver cancer, and honestly,

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Speaker 11: there's a sort of reflexive change where your testical shrink,

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Speaker 11: so oftentimes they can't get an erection or have normal

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Speaker 11: sexual function because the body saying, hey, I have too

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Speaker 11: much of this hormone, so the don't produce it.

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Speaker 1: Is it worth it to have all that? But your testicles,

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Speaker 1: your bald shrink and you can't get an erection, but

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Speaker 1: you've got some really serious biceps. That's the trade off.

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Speaker 11: That's the trade off. That's the medical You know, your

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Speaker 11: body's trying to regulate it and your pump you're juice

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Speaker 11: and you're pumping it full.

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Speaker 1: Of nobody sees a problem with that. But me, am

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Speaker 1: I the crazy one in this scenario because I don't

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Speaker 1: think so, hold on, doctor Pria is a forensic pathologist.

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Speaker 1: I definitely need a shrink right now. Doctor Marlena Ribra

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Speaker 1: Riba is joining us clinical Psychologists, research consultant at Doctor

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Speaker 1: Long and Associates. Doctor Riba, thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 1: I'm hearing from doctor Priya what overloads of synthetic testosterone

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Speaker 1: does to your body? But what does it do to

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Speaker 1: your psyche? And Eric Fattus high profile defense you're joining me.

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Speaker 1: You just piped down because this is not a defense.

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Speaker 1: Roid rage is just like voluntary use of drugs are alcohol.

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Speaker 1: It's not a defense under the law. So don't tune

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Speaker 1: up with me, because I know where your brain is

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Speaker 1: headed right now, Doctor Marlena, explain to me what this

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Speaker 1: does to your psyche.

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Speaker 12: So I think there are two things to sort of

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Speaker 12: keep in mind here. One is that we already know

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Speaker 12: that he has sort of a pattern of behavior that

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Speaker 12: would already put him at risk. So you know we

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Speaker 12: have these.

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Speaker 1: History of alcohol youth. What did you say put him

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Speaker 1: at risk? Why is he at risk? He's gobbling steroids

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Speaker 1: on his own. I'm not making him do that. It's

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Speaker 1: and her children that are at risk.

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Speaker 12: Absolutely know, You're absolutely correct. I mean in terms of

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Speaker 12: at risk, in terms of being more of a threat,

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Speaker 12: is what I mean. Right, So he's already got these risks, okay,

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Speaker 12: actors of you know there's alcohol involved. He's already demonstrated

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Speaker 12: poor impulse control. So if you take these things, aside

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Speaker 12: from just using the steroids, that's already kind of putting

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Speaker 12: him in a position where he would be more of

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Speaker 12: a danger to his partners.

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Speaker 1: And probably okay, steroids, Hold on just a moment, I

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Speaker 1: haven't thought of that toxic cocktail. Doctor Marlena Riba to

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Speaker 1: doctor Priy of energy in a nutshell, What does that

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Speaker 1: mean when you are ingesting? Oh, dear gravy, are you

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Speaker 1: showing that just to incite me? Oh? With the big

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Speaker 1: cigar and the gun and the muscles? You know, doctor Preya,

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Speaker 1: what happens when you mix alcohol and steroids anything?

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Speaker 11: Well, we know alcohol lowers inhibitions, right, and he is

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Speaker 11: a raging maniac basically, right, So you have these hormones

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Speaker 11: that are raging, he has poor impulse control. Now the

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Speaker 11: alcohol just basically opens the lid to being completely uncontrolled

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Speaker 11: and that's why he acts out so horribly. And again,

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Speaker 11: as the psychologist said, he's already there, right, He's abused

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Speaker 11: many women in the past, and thank god.

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Speaker 1: You know what on what you're saying to Josephine Winsel,

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Speaker 1: this is Crystal's mom, Josephine, prior violence against two previous wives,

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Speaker 1: and your daughter, this fantastic mom working hard at the

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Speaker 1: apartment complex, raising her children. Absolutely stunning. She looks like

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Speaker 1: a cover girl for Pete's sake. How she's supposed to

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Speaker 1: know he has prior violence claims against two previous wives,

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Speaker 1: appending felony for strangling one of the wives, and long

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Speaker 1: story short, she runs him. She doesn't see any of

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Speaker 1: that on his record. No idea he's doing steroids, no

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Speaker 1: idea at all. It's like leading the lamb to the slaughter.

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Speaker 4: Yes, and she was also running from somebody who was

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Speaker 4: stalking her, an ex that was, you know, she broke

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Speaker 4: up with like six months prior, that was stalking her.

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Speaker 4: So he chased her right into the lion.

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Speaker 1: You know what's upsetting Cheryl McCollum. When I look at Crystal,

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Speaker 1: it reminds me the same thing I saw over and

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Speaker 1: over when prosecuting cases and investigating them. There's a picture

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Speaker 1: for him her. She's just a little bit of girl, Cheryl.

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Speaker 1: Why is it that these people in life that are

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Speaker 1: so pure of heart and innocent they are mistreated so badly?

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Speaker 1: Do you ever wonder, Cheryl, when we're out working a

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Speaker 1: case at four o'clock in the morning, why is it

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Speaker 1: that it seems to always be the good people, the

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Speaker 1: pure people, the innocent people that get tortured and crept

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Speaker 1: on by predators like McLeod.

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Speaker 6: And I think that's the word predator, because again, Nancy,

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Speaker 6: here's something that bothered me when I first heard it.

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Speaker 6: The blood trail that goes from the apartment to the elevator.

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Speaker 6: That is proof positive that he never even rendered aid.

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Speaker 6: He lived so quickly he didn't even clean up. He

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Speaker 6: left driven her blood off of him to escape. And

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Speaker 6: this is somebody he supposedly cared about.

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Speaker 10: He's believed to be on the run in Central America

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Speaker 10: or Mexico. His last reported location was in Guatemala a

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Speaker 10: a year ago, but he has also been spotted in

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Speaker 10: Belize and in Mexico. McLeod has been able to hide

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Speaker 10: until now. But we're not going to let this scoward

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Speaker 10: run from justice and get away with murder. Make no mistake,

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Speaker 10: we are on a hunt for justice and we need

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Speaker 10: your help.

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Speaker 1: You are hearing the San Diego District Attorney speaking that summer, Stephen.

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Speaker 1: The search for this guy McLeod took years, and now

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Speaker 1: he's sitting in a courtroom facing Lady Justice. His defense. Oh,

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Speaker 1: she wanted it. It was rough sex gone wrong. That's

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Speaker 1: the defense joining me in all star panel, including Crystal's mother.

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Speaker 1: Right now, she's raising Crystal's two children. She comes out

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Speaker 1: of retirement former LA law enforcement and devotes her life

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Speaker 1: to tracking down Crystal's killer. To Josephine Winzel, when did

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Speaker 1: you learn that McLeod, the man you believe murdered your daughter,

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Speaker 1: had gone on the run.

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Speaker 4: It was a couple of days after he ran.

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Speaker 1: Did you have any idea where he may have gone?

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Speaker 4: Well, I was still was He went to Mexico, and

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Speaker 4: I thought that's where he was hanging out at was Mexico,

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Speaker 4: And I had no clue from there until you know,

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Speaker 4: the Marshalls got a call that he was spott at

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Speaker 4: going into Belize, and that's when you know the chase

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Speaker 4: was on.

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Speaker 1: The chase was on you come out of retirement and

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Speaker 1: devote yourself to tracking down the man you believe murdered

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Speaker 1: your daughter Crystal, and joining me right now is a

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Speaker 1: special guest. IRV Brandt, former Senior Inspector US Marshall Service

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Speaker 1: International Investigations, IRV Brandt, IRV. The years voted to finding

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Speaker 1: this guy were agonizing. Could you explain how this is done?

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Speaker 1: How he was finally tretted down?

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Speaker 5: Yes, Nancy, I can. It's the US Martial Service said

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Speaker 5: it when they put out the announcement that it was

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Speaker 5: due to Miss Winstle's unrelenting search and her use of

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Speaker 5: social media. And it shows especially south of the border.

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Speaker 5: Just south of the border, when fugitives fully from the

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Speaker 5: United States, usually into Mexico, then start making their way

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Speaker 5: down into Central America, they tend to gravitate to the expats,

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Speaker 5: the US citizens that are living south of the border,

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Speaker 5: and that's where they start making their contacts and their friends,

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Speaker 5: and they move from town to town, country to country,

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Speaker 5: and then pick up jobs using their contacts with American citizens.

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Speaker 5: Whereas the fugitive was found teaching English, which is common

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Speaker 5: for US citizens native speakers of English to teach that

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Speaker 5: in foreign countries and it was through those contacts and

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Speaker 5: those people and the flyers and the things that Miss

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Speaker 5: Whitzel put out that he was spotted that ultimately led

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Speaker 5: to the apprehension. And there was just excellent work by her.

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Speaker 1: How do you become one of the top fifteen most

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Speaker 1: wanted fugitives or brant? How do you get that distinction?

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Speaker 5: The US Marshall Service has, like the FBI's ten Most Wanted,

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Speaker 5: they have their fifteen most wanted, and they consider a

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Speaker 5: lot of factors before putting someone on that most wanted.

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Speaker 5: And it has to do a lot with the crime

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Speaker 5: that that person committed, who that person is, where they

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Speaker 5: have fled to, and basic they're dangerous, How they're deemed

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Speaker 5: dangerous to society in general. And I can tell you

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Speaker 5: that the US Marshal Service thought this man was a

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Speaker 5: danger to society as a whole.

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Speaker 1: I am looking irv it. Maybe you can shed some

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Speaker 1: light on this. The US Marshals Top fifteen most Wanted

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Speaker 1: a fifty thousand dollars reward for this guy, and they

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Speaker 1: give caution in big red letters, armed and dangerous. MacLeod

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Speaker 1: wanted in connection with the death of Crystal Mitchell. He

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Speaker 1: is an avid bodybuilder and a heavy drinker history domestic violence,

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Speaker 1: fled California after the murder of Crystal. We believe to

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Speaker 1: have fled to Mexico. US marshals obtained a federal UFAP

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Speaker 1: warrant for McLeod Josephine. Where was he finally found?

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Speaker 4: He was finally found in El Salvador, in a small

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Speaker 4: town in L Salvador, teaching in that classroom you see,

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Speaker 4: looking just like that boy.

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Speaker 1: His appearance sure has changed right.

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Speaker 4: Totally, you know, Nancy, I couldn't even recognize him in court.

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Speaker 4: There was another witness that came fort and he couldn't

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Speaker 4: recognize him in court.

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Speaker 1: So after all of this, one of the top fifteen

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Speaker 1: most wanted fugitives, Raymond R. J. McCleod, found teaching school

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Speaker 1: in L Salvador. Josephine. What gave him away?

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Speaker 4: Well, it was his one of my ads that I

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Speaker 4: put out there, and someone saw that and spotted him

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Speaker 4: and called it in.

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Speaker 1: Lauren Colin, co hosts of Primetime Crime on YouTube. How

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Speaker 1: was he arrested? Nandy?

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Speaker 9: After a woman saw him at a club and claimed

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Speaker 9: that he was very creepy looking. She called the tip

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Speaker 9: in and then the USLS found him in l Salvador,

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Speaker 9: where he was reciting.

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Speaker 1: Oh okay, hold on, you're giving me a flashback to

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Speaker 1: Brian Coburger because women at bars report him as quote

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Speaker 1: being creepy. And when you get the idea someone is creepy,

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Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum, it's not just a hunch. It's coming from

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Speaker 1: somewhere these women. Spott McLeod known as r J McLeod

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Speaker 1: when he was arrested in El Salvador. He was going

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Speaker 1: by Jack from Canada. But when the women in the

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Speaker 1: bars and restaurants said Coburger was quote creepy and got

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Speaker 1: away from him, same thing here, and they were right.

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Speaker 1: This guy has already strangled one wife, he has domestic

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Speaker 1: violence claims against him, and was just wandering loose. He

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Speaker 1: should have been behind bars when he collides with Crystal.

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Speaker 1: The women were right their hunch. Think you want to

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Speaker 1: call it, that was right, Cheryl.

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Speaker 6: Well, we all have a sixth sense, Nancy. It's important

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Speaker 6: to listen to it. If the hair stands up on

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Speaker 6: the back of your neck, or somebody just gives you

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Speaker 6: a weird feeling, if something is all you've got to

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Speaker 6: listen to that. Here it was clear that there's a

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Speaker 6: pattern with him. More than one person got that feeling.

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Speaker 6: These folks, these predators, cannot hide who they are.

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Speaker 1: Josephine Wentzel, how did you learn that he had been apprehended.

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Speaker 4: Well, I had gotten a phone call prior to his

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Speaker 4: apprehension from the marshall stating that he was spotted, and

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Speaker 4: so I was just waiting on pins and needles for

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Speaker 4: them to get to that location, hoping he doesn't run away.

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Speaker 4: And then I got that phone call that Okay, we're

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Speaker 4: here and we're going in, and you know, they went

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Speaker 4: in and got him. But you know, here's the interesting thing.

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Speaker 4: He wasn't arrested by the marshals at the scene. He

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Speaker 4: was arrested by the El Salvadoran police, who threw him

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Speaker 4: out of the country. He didn't want to be extradited,

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Speaker 4: he had no choice.

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Speaker 2: Investigators piecing together events that led to the murder of

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Speaker 2: Crystal Mitchell and cover a troubling relationship with her boyfriend,

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Speaker 2: what Derek secrets did he have?

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Speaker 10: There is a very real concern that McLeod's history of

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Speaker 10: violence will continue to escalate and he will strike again

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Speaker 10: while he's on the run, most likely against an unsuspecting

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Speaker 10: woman the murder victim in this heartbreaking case, Crystal Mitchell

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Speaker 10: left behind two young children, a loving mother, a brother,

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Speaker 10: and a heartbroken family. Friends.

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Speaker 1: Will there be justice for Crystal and the two little

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Speaker 1: children that she has left behind. Josephine Winsle, Crystal's mother

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Speaker 1: and founder of Angelsofjustice dot org, comes out of retirement

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Speaker 1: to help search the world to find Crystal's killer. Josephine Wincel,

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Speaker 1: what exactly is happening in court right now?

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Speaker 4: Well, we just went through a preliminary hearing. It took

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Speaker 4: over two years for preliminary hearing. This was a tenth

434
00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:35,760
Speaker 4: attempt and finally stuck and we went to court and

435
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:43,680
Speaker 4: he tried to claim accidental death and he wanted to

436
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 4: plead guilty to manslaughter accidental death.

437
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:55,720
Speaker 1: I was appalled, And so is accidental death? Josephine, How

438
00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:57,080
Speaker 1: is this an accidental death?

439
00:29:57,240 --> 00:29:59,880
Speaker 4: I guess he's an accident that happened to himself.

440
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 1: So that what is his claim?

441
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:04,000
Speaker 11: Though?

442
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:08,360
Speaker 1: How is he possibly claiming her murder is an accident.

443
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:12,760
Speaker 1: There's a trail of blood, literally, a trail of blood

444
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:15,000
Speaker 1: leaving the apartment to the elevator.

445
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:18,360
Speaker 4: He has a lot of money and he's been built

446
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:23,040
Speaker 4: out of many troubled situations, similar to abuses and stuff.

447
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:25,640
Speaker 4: So he just thought he'd get away with this one

448
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:29,560
Speaker 4: and get away with using his money, hiring attorneys and

449
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:31,080
Speaker 4: saying accidental.

450
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:34,360
Speaker 1: Doubt to Cheryl McCollum, joining US forensics expert, Cheryl, how

451
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 1: is he claiming this murder is an accident? How how

452
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:39,720
Speaker 1: is that happening?

453
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:42,600
Speaker 6: It's not going to work. An accident is not going

454
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:47,640
Speaker 6: to explain how her throat was broken in three places,

455
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 6: how she's got a confusion on her face, how there's

456
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:54,840
Speaker 6: blood forced trauma, how he never rendered aid, how he

457
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:58,240
Speaker 6: left the trail of blood, and why he would you

458
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:02,520
Speaker 6: go into hide and foresee years That is not an accident.

459
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 6: There's no way, there's zero chance that any evidence is

460
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:09,960
Speaker 6: going to even suggest something that ludicrous.

461
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:13,640
Speaker 1: Joining me is high profile lawyer Eric Fattus, trial lawyer,

462
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 1: TV and list founding partner of Varner Fattest Elite Legal,

463
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:23,680
Speaker 1: Eric Fattus. It's very difficult to determine which way the

464
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:26,160
Speaker 1: defense is going to go. We're getting an idea from

465
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:29,880
Speaker 1: the preliminary hearing based on the questions that they asked

466
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 1: at the preliminary hearing, But this is headed to trial,

467
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:38,000
Speaker 1: and I see several avenues the defense will explore. Number one,

468
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:41,600
Speaker 1: they're going to claim an accident. How are they going

469
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:44,320
Speaker 1: to claim an accident? They are going to try and

470
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:53,600
Speaker 1: say that during consensual quote rough sex, Crystal was killed.

471
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:59,320
Speaker 1: You heard what was done to her body. There's no

472
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:03,640
Speaker 1: way jury is going to believe all that was an accident.

473
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:07,880
Speaker 1: Then he could try and claim he his mind was

474
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:12,680
Speaker 1: clouded because he was drinking and using steroids. But the

475
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 1: law is voluntary use with drugs are alcohol is not

476
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:20,160
Speaker 1: a defense? So what's he going to argue? This guy

477
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:22,480
Speaker 1: weighs about two hundred and eighty pounds, he stands five

478
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:27,160
Speaker 1: to eleven, he's a bodybuilder, he's high on steroids. How

479
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:29,680
Speaker 1: is he going to call what self defense against this

480
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:31,000
Speaker 1: petit little girl.

481
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:31,520
Speaker 5: You know, Nancy.

482
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 4: A horrendous set of circumstances.

483
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:34,600
Speaker 1: Michadul's system is WINSL.

484
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:35,200
Speaker 5: I think the.

485
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:38,040
Speaker 13: Defense, like you said, is going to explore a couple avenues.

486
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:40,720
Speaker 13: One is that this was an accidental death, just a

487
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:44,640
Speaker 13: tragic state of affairs that played out and was not intended.

488
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:49,040
Speaker 13: In fact, that the preliminary hearing called doctor Drew Pinsky

489
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:52,720
Speaker 13: to say that he choking during sex is a common

490
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:56,400
Speaker 13: more common than people think, and oftentimes the risks are

491
00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 13: not fully appreciated by the participants. Secondly, they're going to

492
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:04,720
Speaker 13: say that he was engaging in voluntary intoxication that prohibited

493
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:08,160
Speaker 13: his ability to form an intent to kill. The alcohol

494
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:11,320
Speaker 13: and the steroids clouded things so much that he could

495
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 13: not form this intent to kill, which is necessary to

496
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:15,960
Speaker 13: convict him of the higher murder chart.

497
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:18,800
Speaker 1: Are you serious? Is this a joke? I mean, are

498
00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:20,400
Speaker 1: you just saying this because you don't know what else

499
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:20,960
Speaker 1: to say.

500
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:24,200
Speaker 13: That's the claim that his defense is bringing, and I'm

501
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:26,280
Speaker 13: just sort of trying to articulate that for your viewers.

502
00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:30,120
Speaker 1: So then yes, okay, So let me understand this. The

503
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:32,480
Speaker 1: claim is going to be Eric Fattis, who was won

504
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:34,600
Speaker 1: a lot of cases in court, by the way, and

505
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:37,960
Speaker 1: here we see what's going to happen. He's going to

506
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:44,680
Speaker 1: claim that three fractures to her voice box. That's why

507
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 1: the roommates didn't hear anything but one short scream because

508
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 1: he took those two Virginia hams that he calls hands

509
00:33:54,400 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 1: and fractured her voice box and three places. That's why

510
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:06,520
Speaker 1: she didn't scream anymore. When she screamed he destroyed her

511
00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:07,479
Speaker 1: voice box.

512
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 13: Well, I think that's go ahead.

513
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:13,239
Speaker 1: No, I can't wait to hear what you're going to say. Fattest, Well, just.

514
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:16,040
Speaker 13: A little wrinkle in the cases that you know. It

515
00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:19,640
Speaker 13: looks like the aggression, according to prosecution, was started at

516
00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 13: the elevator and then went into the apartment, and so

517
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:26,760
Speaker 13: there's at least an argument that there was no damage

518
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:28,080
Speaker 13: to the voice box at that point.

519
00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:29,320
Speaker 1: And had this been non.

520
00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:31,600
Speaker 13: Consensual, defense is going to say that the tenants would

521
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:32,280
Speaker 13: have heard screams.

522
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:35,400
Speaker 1: They did hear a scream. Is that messing up your scenario?

523
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:36,200
Speaker 13: It was not.

524
00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 1: My little revision is history. You're trying, okay, hold hold on,

525
00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:44,239
Speaker 1: and then you're claiming that, Okay, you're claiming it was

526
00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 1: an accident. That would be your argument, But then how

527
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:51,480
Speaker 1: does that jibe with his history of domestic abuse? When

528
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:55,680
Speaker 1: the state begins calling similar transactions, including the previous wife,

529
00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:58,480
Speaker 1: I think it was wife number two, because, by the way, ladies,

530
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:01,680
Speaker 1: he was still married when he met Crystal. She didn't

531
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:06,759
Speaker 1: know that still married to wife number three. Listen, one divorce, Hey,

532
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:09,680
Speaker 1: that could be anybody's fault when you're on your second

533
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:15,400
Speaker 1: and third divorce it's you. Okay, with the exception of

534
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:19,960
Speaker 1: Elizabeth Taylor, of course, but it's you. Think about Drew Peterson,

535
00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:23,480
Speaker 1: the cop turn killer. He was on wife what four

536
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:27,240
Speaker 1: or five? Cheryl McCollum. Let's see. He killed Kathleen Savio,

537
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:30,560
Speaker 1: that was wife number three. He beat her brutally. She

538
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:33,359
Speaker 1: was found in a dry bath of bone, dry bath

539
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:37,160
Speaker 1: with tudd but people claimed that she fell in the

540
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:41,280
Speaker 1: shower and died. Okay. Then there's Stacy Peterson, his fourth wife. Okay,

541
00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:45,000
Speaker 1: when your whole wife number four and they're dropping like flies,

542
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:49,799
Speaker 1: it's not them, it's you, right, Can anybody disagree with that?

543
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:50,680
Speaker 1: Except faddest.

544
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:53,080
Speaker 6: You can look at that night and see the things

545
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:56,840
Speaker 6: that were not consensual. He slapped her, not consensual. He

546
00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:59,960
Speaker 6: got into a physical fight with another man, not consensual.

547
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:03,319
Speaker 6: He shoved her in the elevator, not consensual, and he

548
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:04,160
Speaker 6: murdered her.

549
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:09,200
Speaker 1: Will there be justice for Crystal Well her two children

550
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:14,720
Speaker 1: grow up knowing that the justice system worked. I wonder

551
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:18,480
Speaker 1: because if it had not been for Cristel's mother, Josephine

552
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:24,359
Speaker 1: Winzl R J. McLeod would never have been found. Josephine,

553
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:28,239
Speaker 1: we were speaking of similar transactions in this case. You

554
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:30,600
Speaker 1: know what happened in the preliminary hearing. You know the

555
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:34,240
Speaker 1: defense is going to try and blame Crystal, your daughter

556
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:39,600
Speaker 1: now dad, claiming she wanted rough sex. For most people,

557
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:44,040
Speaker 1: I would dial back because I would be afraid of

558
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:48,439
Speaker 1: hurting the mom's feelings. Your former law enforcement you've been

559
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:53,000
Speaker 1: knee deep, ankle deep. Excuse me, you've been knee deep,

560
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:57,160
Speaker 1: waist deep, elbow deep in the search for McLeod and

561
00:36:57,239 --> 00:37:01,320
Speaker 1: you helped find him. Yes, you're gonna drag your daughter

562
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:06,120
Speaker 1: through the mud. Speaking of similar transactions, Josephine, isn't it

563
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:10,240
Speaker 1: true that, according to the neighbor of a Mayan woman

564
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:17,120
Speaker 1: he was dating in Livingstone, Guatemala, he would beat her routinely.

565
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:22,160
Speaker 1: They could hear her screaming. Isn't that true, Josephine.

566
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:25,960
Speaker 4: Yes, I was told that she was beaten so badly.

567
00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:30,239
Speaker 4: As how the woman described it, she just said.

568
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:33,320
Speaker 1: The neighbors say they don't even know how the woman lived.

569
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:40,040
Speaker 1: So if this guy walks, there will be another victim. Josephine,

570
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:44,080
Speaker 1: your story is so incredible what you have sacrificed to

571
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:47,719
Speaker 1: find your daughter's killer. Could you share.

572
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:49,959
Speaker 4: That it was a big sacrifice, It was over six

573
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:55,160
Speaker 4: years of searching for him, dealing with terrorists, you know,

574
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:59,279
Speaker 4: putting money out to you know, so called witnesses and

575
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:03,400
Speaker 4: tipsters and whatnot. It was really hard. It was very difficult.

576
00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:07,279
Speaker 4: I was in the middle of grieving and raising two

577
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:10,239
Speaker 4: small children and trying to be that wife and trying

578
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:12,960
Speaker 4: to be that mother to my other grieving children. It

579
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:16,839
Speaker 4: was a very very difficult time. And to have been

580
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:20,439
Speaker 4: putting all my time and effort into this, To come

581
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:24,000
Speaker 4: to court and listen to people say that this was accidental,

582
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:27,960
Speaker 4: it just kills me inside. But you know, I have

583
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:31,879
Speaker 4: faith that the truth will come out and justice will

584
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:33,759
Speaker 4: be served. And you know, Nancy, I just want to

585
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:36,920
Speaker 4: point out my daughter is so ocd. You see all

586
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:39,319
Speaker 4: her pictures. Do you see any bruising on her? Do

587
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:43,480
Speaker 4: you see any kind of marks on her neck, her

588
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:47,839
Speaker 4: body or anything. She is not into that sick accusation

589
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:50,799
Speaker 4: that they're making about her. This girl would even go

590
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 4: out in public with a pimp on her face, let

591
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:58,920
Speaker 4: alone strangling marks and bruises and stuff. Absolutely insane. She

592
00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:02,840
Speaker 4: trusts it. That was her problem. Was she trusted this man?

593
00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:05,799
Speaker 4: That was what happened to her or what killed her?

594
00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:08,759
Speaker 1: Was she trusted him, Josephine. I'm just so I'm just

595
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:12,680
Speaker 1: so worried, Josephine, because this guy has managed to con

596
00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:17,920
Speaker 1: woman after woman after woman, And if the state fails

597
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:23,320
Speaker 1: and doesn't get the right evidence in, he could walk again.

598
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:27,120
Speaker 1: He could walk again. And when I think, when I

599
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:31,759
Speaker 1: look at her photos, and I think that he so

600
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:38,400
Speaker 1: brazenly just left a trail of this beautiful girl's blood,

601
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:44,240
Speaker 1: then takes the car she rented and dumbs it, leaving

602
00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:50,720
Speaker 1: her body for other people to find, mangled and bloody.

603
00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:55,719
Speaker 1: I just pray. I pray for justice, not just for her, Josephine,

604
00:39:56,200 --> 00:40:00,560
Speaker 1: not for you and your husband, but for her children,

605
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:05,440
Speaker 1: because I don't want them growing up thinking nobody fought

606
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:12,760
Speaker 1: from my mom, nobody got justice. We wait as justice

607
00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:18,719
Speaker 1: unfolds for Crystal, and now we stop to remember an

608
00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:25,319
Speaker 1: American hero. Deputy Sheriff Dan Glaize, Junior russ County Sheriff's, Wisconsin,

609
00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:29,520
Speaker 1: shot and killed in the line of duty. Glaze survived

610
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:36,440
Speaker 1: by a grieving wife, now widow, his high school sweetheart, Sarah,

611
00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:41,920
Speaker 1: and their children, Kendall, Levi and Eleianna, just five months

612
00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:47,360
Speaker 1: old when she lost her dad. American hero deputy Sheriff

613
00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:54,960
Speaker 1: Dan Glaize Junior, end of watch. Thank you so much

614
00:40:55,239 --> 00:41:00,920
Speaker 1: for our panel being with us tonight, especially Josephine, but

615
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:04,320
Speaker 1: also thank you to you for being with us. Nancy

616
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:06,160
Speaker 1: Grace signing off, goodbye friend,