Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media, Hello, and welcome to Cool People Did
Speaker 1: Cool Stuff, your weekly reminder that people can do good
Speaker 1: things and response to bad things, and also sometimes that
Speaker 1: people can become better people than.
Speaker 2: They started off. I'm your host, Margaret Kiljoy, and my
Speaker 2: guest today is Cavea, who's host of House of Pod
Speaker 2: and a doctor. And you know, oh hi, yeah.
Speaker 3: No, I'm a better person now for having been through
Speaker 3: episode one of these two parter learning things about how
Speaker 3: to improve as a person.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. And you know he needs doctors a lot,
Speaker 2: George orwell, oh, I thought you're gonna say me, Well,
Speaker 2: I'm going to get to that too. Also is a
Speaker 2: is our producer Sophie, who I would not have said
Speaker 2: that about on air, but Sophie said about on air,
Speaker 2: how do you like our sickly hero pop this week?
Speaker 4: I don't know.
Speaker 3: I think that. Uh, I don't know. I can't get
Speaker 3: past some of the things, so I just don't like him.
Speaker 2: That's fair, that's working fair. I did not like him
Speaker 2: for a very long time after I learned.
Speaker 5: Thought yeah, yeah, but you know, empathy to people who
Speaker 5: also need to live in a bubble.
Speaker 2: Yeah, also in our bubble of social helping create this
Speaker 2: podcast is our audio engineer, Daniel and Hi Daniel H.
Speaker 3: Danel, Danel. I liked it and.
Speaker 2: Our theme musical was written forced by unwoman and yeah,
Speaker 2: no it's Sophie. I like, I feel you about it.
Speaker 2: I I don't know. It took me a really long
Speaker 2: time to be like, I'm going to give this man
Speaker 2: a time a day. Our hero, George Orwell, are complicated here.
Speaker 2: George Orwell, he's in Spain and he joins a Marxist militia,
Speaker 2: the Poum Poum. They're a smallish unit and they're like
Speaker 2: famous in history because George Orwell wrote one of the
Speaker 2: main books about the Spanish Civil War. They're not historically
Speaker 2: important particularly, but they became important because warwells in it.
Speaker 2: And they're Marxists. But the whole thing is that they're
Speaker 2: not attached to Stalin. Stalin actually tries to kill them
Speaker 2: all soon enough, and he wanted to join the anarchists
Speaker 2: because they weren't but they weren't going where he wanted
Speaker 2: to go. He wrote quote, as far as my purely
Speaker 2: personal preferences went, I would have liked to join the anarchists.
Speaker 2: And George ends up an officer soon enough, he was
Speaker 2: a few years older, and he had basically had paramilitary
Speaker 2: training from being a colonial cop. There was military rank
Speaker 2: in terms of structure in these militaries, but not in
Speaker 2: terms of social treatment. He said that quote. There was
Speaker 2: no titles, no badges, no heel clicking, and no saluting,
Speaker 2: and everyone from general to private drew the same pay ate,
Speaker 2: the same food, wore the same clothes, and mingled on
Speaker 2: terms of complete equality.
Speaker 3: Why he wanted to be with the anarchists because he
Speaker 3: just didn't like the pageantry of the military and being
Speaker 3: like a cop and all that stuff.
Speaker 2: Well, so he had like kind of come from like
Speaker 2: he had this period already where he had been an
Speaker 2: anarchist for a little bit. But actually it's this Marxist
Speaker 2: militia is also like that. The Marxist militia that he's
Speaker 2: part of is also complete social equality, even though there's
Speaker 2: a command structure embedded within it, also within the anarchists,
Speaker 2: or very similar structurally. But yeah, no, I think he
Speaker 2: just he like kind of likes the anarchists. He's still
Speaker 2: not one. He's a democratic socialist. He actually comes there
Speaker 2: as part of the Labor Party, the Independent Labor Party,
Speaker 2: distinct from the Labor Party. They move in and out
Speaker 2: in British politics are very confusing to me, and so
Speaker 2: these militias fight despite there being no force, making them
Speaker 2: nothing but class loyalty. Orwell wrote quote in May. For
Speaker 2: a short while, I was acting lieutenant in command of
Speaker 2: about thirty men, English and Spanish. We had all been
Speaker 2: under fire for months, and I never had the slightest
Speaker 2: difficulty in getting an order obeyed or in getting men
Speaker 2: to volunteer for a dangerous job. Discipline was built by
Speaker 2: spreading revolutionary ideas, not as jargon and most as sloganeering,
Speaker 2: but by quote, I'm a sneeze. Please cut this whole one,
Speaker 2: or I'm going to acknowledge them with sneeze, and it's
Speaker 2: not gonna happen. And you should include it because it's first. Yeah,
Speaker 2: just include it. I hope people find it amusing that
Speaker 2: I sometimes have to sneeze.
Speaker 3: Look up at the sun. You can trigger an ocular
Speaker 3: reflex if there's one available to you. There's a lamp.
Speaker 2: Although it is midsummer as we're recording this, I'm sure
Speaker 2: there's a sun outside somewhere. So they spread this discipline
Speaker 2: by spreading revolutionary ideas by quote, endless arguments and explanations
Speaker 2: as to why such and such a thing was necessary,
Speaker 2: rather than being like, well, come on, man, dialectical marks
Speaker 2: as materialism says that you should go to run into
Speaker 2: that machine gun you know. Oh wait, maybe with sneeze again.
Speaker 2: Who knows gonna happen at any time.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 2: I'm not convinced. Almost certainly, oh, he also wrote quote
Speaker 2: almost certainly. The main reason why the Spanish Republic could
Speaker 2: keep up the fight for two and a half years
Speaker 2: against impossible odds was that there was no gross contrasts
Speaker 2: of wealth. The people suffered horribly, but they all suffered alike.
Speaker 2: When the private soldier had not a cigarette, the general
Speaker 2: had not won either. The militias held the line while
Speaker 2: a regular army assembled and trained behind them, but eventually
Speaker 2: the communist forces, and by this I mean the Stalinist forces,
Speaker 2: swallowed it all. After about a year, the militias disbanded
Speaker 2: or were absorbed into the communist controlled popular army, with
Speaker 2: all the usual bullshit like officers getting paid a ton
Speaker 2: more than the regular soldiers, or well described it, The
Speaker 2: undoubted purpose of this change was to strike a blow
Speaker 2: at equalitarianism in every Department, the same policy had been followed,
Speaker 2: with the result that only a year after the outbreak
Speaker 2: of the war, you get what was in effect an
Speaker 2: ordinary bourgeois state with in addition a reign of terror
Speaker 2: to preserve the status quo. And like when he says
Speaker 2: preserve the status quo, he means that, like when the
Speaker 2: revolution first broke out, everyone's like running around and collectivizing
Speaker 2: farms and stealing land back from the landlords and shit
Speaker 2: like that. Right, the Communists were like, no, no, you can't
Speaker 2: do that yet. You're not allowed to collectivize property anymore,
Speaker 2: and we will fucking kill you if you try.
Speaker 6: So I'm look confused, though, Yeah, you're confused, so he
Speaker 6: said a little bit. Yeah, okay again, I'm I'm not
Speaker 6: socially just asking.
Speaker 3: But I feel like that would have been a Communist
Speaker 3: thing to do though, or were they There's like, no,
Speaker 3: we're the ones to do that, not you people doing
Speaker 3: it willy nilly.
Speaker 2: So there's this thing that at this time the Communist
Speaker 2: Party was kind of the right wing of the left
Speaker 2: because they believed one they were like totalitarian right and
Speaker 2: they believed in Stalin and all this stuff, right, But
Speaker 2: they specifically were like, we can't have the revolution yet
Speaker 2: because we don't want to piss off the rich, because
Speaker 2: we want to consolidate power. They were specifically around politicking
Speaker 2: and playing power rather than having a communist revolution. So
Speaker 2: they're hypocrites and they are like counter revolutionary, is how
Speaker 2: I Everyone who listens to this podcast knows, I have
Speaker 2: a very low opinion of the USSR. But yeah, so
Speaker 2: they are running around preventing the revolution in the name
Speaker 2: of the greater revolution. Basically. Part of it also is
Speaker 2: that Russia doesn't care about Spain except as a chess
Speaker 2: piece on a global board, right, and so Russia is
Speaker 2: afraid that if Spain goes communists too soon, the UK
Speaker 2: and France are not going to have it, and they're
Speaker 2: going to like try to stop Russia.
Speaker 3: Got you, right, gotcha.
Speaker 2: They're playing forty chess with yeah, people's lives instead of
Speaker 2: having ideological consistency and trying to, you know, create a
Speaker 2: communist society. Everyone else's trying to create a communist society
Speaker 2: except the communists, is what's happening. The Labor Party is
Speaker 2: down there trying to fucking cause a communist society because
Speaker 2: the left wing of the or the Independent Labor Party
Speaker 2: is to the left of the Communists.
Speaker 3: Is the Labor Party back then it all similar to
Speaker 3: the one that exists now.
Speaker 2: No, So okay, so I'm gonna get this a little
Speaker 2: bit messy. So there's the Independent Labor Party and then
Speaker 2: there's the Labor Party, and then they kind of intertwine
Speaker 2: back and forth every now and then. And I think
Speaker 2: by like the mid nineteen forties, the Independent Labor Party
Speaker 2: becomes the left wing of the Labor Party, which comes
Speaker 2: into power. And it's around then I think that the
Speaker 2: Labor Party starts getting a little bit more boring centrist,
Speaker 2: even kind of sometimes center right, and that's like Or
Speaker 2: will die shortly there after, and like, so we actually
Speaker 2: don't know what he would have kind of done politically,
Speaker 2: whether he would have like kept fighting for the left
Speaker 2: wing of the Labor Party or whether he would have
Speaker 2: peaced out on it. But he's down there with the
Speaker 2: Independent Labor Party.
Speaker 3: At this time.
Speaker 2: So it's it is distinct at this time, and there's
Speaker 2: no official English intervention, like the government is of Britain
Speaker 2: is not intervening, but individuals are like, we gotta go
Speaker 2: stup fascism. Yeah, I'm also going to just out of nowhere.
Speaker 2: Read my favorite quote from this book because I like it. Quote.
Speaker 2: I have no particular love for the idealized worker as
Speaker 2: he appears in the bourgeois communist mind. But when I
Speaker 2: see an actual flesh and blood worker in conflict with
Speaker 2: his natural enemy, the policeman, I do not have to
Speaker 2: ask myself which side I am on.
Speaker 3: Wow that's pretty. That's a. That's a. It's a major
Speaker 3: character arc from where he started.
Speaker 2: I know he was a cop.
Speaker 7: Yeah, wow, Yeah, that's pretty.
Speaker 3: It's pretty interesting. I mean, we're going to get to it,
Speaker 3: but I'm I'm like bummed to hear that he died
Speaker 3: at forty six, Like I really wonder what would have
Speaker 3: happened if, like, you know, he kept going.
Speaker 2: No and everyone conjectures and they would have been like,
Speaker 2: he would have been on my team. And I do
Speaker 2: that a little bit too, But like everyone's wrong, you know.
Speaker 2: Right soon after he gets down there, Eileen comes to
Speaker 2: and we don't have as much of her words. He
Speaker 2: didn't write much about her the famous war. His book
Speaker 2: on the war, Homage to Catalonia, doesn't mention her by
Speaker 2: name anywhere in it, and doesn't talk about what she's doing.
Speaker 2: Really Some have read this as evidence of him ignoring
Speaker 2: her and taking it for granted. Again, my read of
Speaker 2: the situation, which could be wrong, is that it was
Speaker 2: private and that neither of them wanted her dragged into it. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but she went down there, and she was coordinating logistics
Speaker 2: for all the independent labor union soldiers, and so she's
Speaker 2: running supply and communications and financial stuff and producing a
Speaker 2: newspaper and a radio show. And there's like photos of
Speaker 2: her on the front lines and stuff. She's not fighting
Speaker 2: on the front lines, but she's making it happen.
Speaker 3: Sounded sad upon the radio. Sorry, I had to get
Speaker 3: into Dixie being that runner.
Speaker 2: Nice, well done you.
Speaker 3: Eventually I find a way.
Speaker 2: I only know, come on, Eileen, that the chorus you know, Oh.
Speaker 3: God, I don't know. I love that song so much.
Speaker 3: It is the greatest one hit wonder, even better than
Speaker 3: PoCA Bell's canon. It's that good a one hit wonder.
Speaker 3: That's how much I love that song.
Speaker 2: It does something really well, which is like be a
Speaker 2: like upbeat sad song. Yeah, exactly, that's right. Yeah, I
Speaker 2: do like that about it. So, while George is fighting
Speaker 2: at the front, a fascist soldier shoots him through the throat.
Speaker 2: There's so many people who hate Orwell who write about Orwell,
Speaker 2: And there's like this one writer who writes about everything
Speaker 2: bad that happens to orwell's his own fault, and like
Speaker 2: how he died of sickness as his own fault because
Speaker 2: he kept being like dumb, you know. And so this
Speaker 2: author whose name I genuinely forget, was like, oh, he
Speaker 2: was really tall and he stood up and so they
Speaker 2: he got shot and he should have known better because
Speaker 2: he was tall and not to stand.
Speaker 3: Should never have stood up in that war.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he's like the same versus like he he
Speaker 2: was slumming and that's how he got sick and destroyed
Speaker 2: his health. So fuck him. And I'm just like damn.
Speaker 2: And it's not even one of the people who was
Speaker 2: writing about the bad thing he did.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2: Anyway, he gets shot in the throat, but he survives.
Speaker 2: If he had been shot a millimeter in another direction,
Speaker 2: we probably wouldn't have had the book nineteen eighty four.
Speaker 3: Yeah, those a little important things going through your neck.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, bad place to get shot. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I was gonna ask, as a doctor, is like is
Speaker 2: that a good spot? Like I know, he just turned
Speaker 2: out the best.
Speaker 3: Yeah, turned to kit it really tight. Yeah, yeah, that's
Speaker 3: a really bad place. I mean, aside from the blood
Speaker 3: vessels that are major to bleed out very easily, the
Speaker 3: is you know, you could get swelling from the wound
Speaker 3: or the edemon and that could cause a restriction on
Speaker 3: your air and your breathing, so not to mention your
Speaker 3: spinal cord. So there's all there's a lot of stuff
Speaker 3: in there, I mean, unless it just nicks you on
Speaker 3: the side. Yes, it's not a good place to get shot. Yeah.
Speaker 2: No, it's definitely threw the throat, not of graze, and
Speaker 2: he definitely was apparently like millimeters from an artery and goodness,
Speaker 2: but he's lucky in some ways.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: One thing that wasn't lucky is that while he was
Speaker 2: at the front, the Communists had started attacking the Marxists
Speaker 2: and the anarchists, and they started disappearing POM members, the
Speaker 2: militia that he's part of. They start torturing them, they start,
Speaker 2: but don't worry. The communist officers who did this disappearing
Speaker 2: and torturing of their political rivals then got disappeared and
Speaker 2: tortured by the Communist officers who replaced them, because it's
Speaker 2: no one is good at killing communists like Stalin.
Speaker 3: I mean, like why just to like we didn't like
Speaker 3: the way you tortured and killed the anarchists. We're going
Speaker 3: to do it.
Speaker 2: Better or like yeah, like now they're politically untrustworthy, like
Speaker 2: Stalin is like fucking paranoid.
Speaker 3: You did what we told you to our colleagues, and
Speaker 3: that shows us that you're not to be trusted, so
Speaker 3: we are going to kill you now for it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, basically, like like it's like it's almost inscrutable, like
Speaker 2: Stalin has like the people closest to him are the
Speaker 2: people who are getting killed, right, and so it's the
Speaker 2: highest like it is the guy who disappeared a Pooh
Speaker 2: member and was like the main torture guy. It's I
Speaker 2: researched at different time, so I remember anyone's names who
Speaker 2: like was then disappeared and tortured within months, you know,
Speaker 2: And I don't know. I think that this is why
Speaker 2: the Spanish Civil War, and other people argue that we
Speaker 2: would have lost either way, but I think this is
Speaker 2: why Franco won. There's certainly a big part of it.
Speaker 2: It doesn't help when this kind of stuff happens. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and so when he gets out of the hospit at all,
Speaker 2: there's a warrnt out for his arrest from the Communists
Speaker 2: because he's in and for him and Eileen, Eileen saves
Speaker 2: the day. She has one eye on the exit the
Speaker 2: whole time, and while he's recovering, she's like figuring out passport.
Speaker 3: Shit.
Speaker 2: I think they get out under an assumed name. It's
Speaker 2: been a while since I read how much Catalonium and
Speaker 2: gets them out of the country. And they were going
Speaker 2: to be arrested and tried by the Communists. And we
Speaker 2: know this because they were arrested and tried in absentia,
Speaker 2: which is two things. One, what a way to start
Speaker 2: a married life. They had been married for less than
Speaker 2: six months when they go to this war. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: it is like around their one year anniversary that they
Speaker 2: are fleeing under assumed names from the Communists who they
Speaker 2: were supposedly supposed to be helping.
Speaker 3: Yeah, romance, I know.
Speaker 2: And the other thing is that he hates Stalinists, and
Speaker 2: with the burning heat of fiery son, the two things
Speaker 2: he hates are fascists and Stalinists and he sees them
Speaker 2: equally as bad. And because they killed probably an equal
Speaker 2: number of his close friends during that war. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: so yeah, Stalin gets stal George Horwell gets home, gets
Speaker 2: really anti Stalinists at this point, and the left in
Speaker 2: the UK fucking hates him when he gets back because
Speaker 2: he doesn't like Stalin. Everyone's like, what, you can't be
Speaker 2: mad at Stalin, the Man of Steele, He's our guy.
Speaker 2: He couldn't get Homage to Catalonia published for a very
Speaker 2: long time, and when he did, it's sold like a
Speaker 2: couple hundred copies. He's like already a known author at
Speaker 2: this point, right, but no one will buy it because
Speaker 2: leftists right wing doesn't want it and the leftists don't
Speaker 2: want it either. This is where Orwell starts getting taken
Speaker 2: out of context constantly. His existing books are starting to
Speaker 2: get taken out of context and being like, oh, or
Speaker 2: was not a real leftist. He said the following about
Speaker 2: the working class or whatever. Like there's this thing where
Speaker 2: like in one of his books he was like the
Speaker 2: working class smell, and you take that out of context,
Speaker 2: that sure doesn't.
Speaker 3: Sound great, right, yeah, sure.
Speaker 2: And he's like talking about being like the sweat of
Speaker 2: honest labor and hard lives and like bad hygiene caused
Speaker 2: by poverty, and like, yes, there is actually a distinct
Speaker 2: smell and you know, and so they're like, ah, or
Speaker 2: Well just thinks that everyone, all the working class are
Speaker 2: smelly idiots or whatever. Yeah, but Orwell remains a leftist
Speaker 2: despite this, He wrote, quote, every line of serious work
Speaker 2: I have written since nineteen thirty six has been written
Speaker 2: directly or indirectly against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism. And
Speaker 2: what's funny speaking of being taken out of context after
Speaker 2: he dies and they like are reprinting Animal Farm and shit,
Speaker 2: they start off with a intro introduction where they take
Speaker 2: out the for democratic socialism.
Speaker 3: No kidding, yeah, oh my, what did they did? They
Speaker 3: replace it with something or they took up that line completely.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's every line of serious work I've written is
Speaker 2: against totalitarianism.
Speaker 3: What point did he write animal Farm? Was this? Okay,
Speaker 3: it's soon.
Speaker 2: So he moves in with Eileen's family for a while,
Speaker 2: and then they moved to another place and they got
Speaker 2: a French poodle they named Marx and a rooster they
Speaker 2: named Henry Ford. And he kept getting sick a bunch,
Speaker 2: which is like, you know, his the style at the
Speaker 2: time for him and a writer friend pays for them
Speaker 2: to recover in French Morocco, and so he goes to
Speaker 2: hang out in warmer air or whatever because he's stole
Speaker 2: a middle class and by middle class and British standards
Speaker 2: like vaguely boucheoisie guy.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Eventually World War two does its whole thing like start.
Speaker 2: And prior to the outbreak of the war, George actually
Speaker 2: came back from Spain and he was a pacifist, which
Speaker 2: was like the further left position, which doesn't mean that
Speaker 2: he was against It doesn't mean what it means today,
Speaker 2: like no violence. It means he didn't believe in England
Speaker 2: joining a hypothetical European war. As soon as the war starts,
Speaker 2: he won eighties and he is very pro war. There
Speaker 2: are Nazis to kill and there's an England to defend.
Speaker 2: Eileen is off to working in the censorship department at
Speaker 2: the Ministry of Information. Yeah, they sounds very nineteen eighty four.
Speaker 2: His life is very nineteen eighty four. George Orwell is
Speaker 2: going to soon we'll talk about it. First he tries
Speaker 2: to sign up for the military. He's like, well, I know,
Speaker 2: my shit, I've been in a war. I you know
Speaker 2: and say what you want about George orwell, he was
Speaker 2: pathologically fearless. As far as I can tell, the Army,
Speaker 2: the Navy, and the Air Force all reject him like
Speaker 2: one after the other.
Speaker 3: Your next buddy, you can't come. No, we're not taking you.
Speaker 2: You are sickly, you are constantly down with pneumonia. And
Speaker 2: also I think the fact that he's like a leftist
Speaker 2: is part of this, right, like he's been. He actually
Speaker 2: like kind of tries to join like more proper like
Speaker 2: Ministry of Information type stuff, and I think and they
Speaker 2: don't let him because he's on there like sk lefty
Speaker 2: watch list. Yeah but yeah, and he's in his late
Speaker 2: thirties and shit, and he's like not medically fit for
Speaker 2: the war. So he joins the Home Guard, and the
Speaker 2: Home Guard is mostly made up of like brave but
Speaker 2: too young or too old or too sick, people like
Speaker 2: people who can join the regular military over under eighteen
Speaker 2: over forty one. And they all were training to fight
Speaker 2: as partisans in case Germany invaded the UK, which absolutely
Speaker 2: could have happened. It didn't come super close to happening.
Speaker 2: We now know, right because we can like look at
Speaker 2: the war documents and shit, but it like absolutely could
Speaker 2: have happened. Or well, wants to turn the Home Guard
Speaker 2: into a socialist militia to have a socialist revolution during
Speaker 2: World War Two.
Speaker 3: It's strong, yes commitment.
Speaker 2: He is not alone in this And basically he starts
Speaker 2: talking about how we need to win the war against
Speaker 2: Hitler for socialism to have a chance, but we also
Speaker 2: need to have a socialist revolution in order for winning
Speaker 2: the war to have a chance. And I mean, he's wrong.
Speaker 2: They managed to defeat Hitler anyway without a socialist revolution.
Speaker 2: And did you know what one result of us not
Speaker 2: having had a social democratic socialist revolution in the nineteen
Speaker 2: forties is.
Speaker 3: I'm gonna guess it's something to do with the commercials.
Speaker 2: It does the fact that we were about to pivot
Speaker 2: to actually, you know, we'd probably be pivoting to like
Speaker 2: the people's ads or whatever its because the world's a nightmare.
Speaker 2: But here's ads and rebeca the beginning of the war,
Speaker 2: he spends two years in the propaganda services for the
Speaker 2: BBC nineteen forty one to nineteen forty three. He's doing
Speaker 2: wartime news in propaganda for British India. Because people tend
Speaker 2: to forget that Britain was still in imperial power, Like
Speaker 2: this is the there's like a couple year period where
Speaker 2: Britain looks good and this is it, Like that's it.
Speaker 2: The only time that Britain ever looked good was when
Speaker 2: they were fighting the fucka Dazis.
Speaker 3: Yeah, because of all the movies. That's why all the
Speaker 3: movies are about that time, because yeah, they look pretty cool. Yeah,
Speaker 3: pretty cool.
Speaker 2: People forget that Britain was an imperial power and a
Speaker 2: fuck ton of Indian soldiers fought and died against the
Speaker 2: Nazis and are often left out of the Like an
Speaker 2: Indian friend of mine was like talking about basically being like,
Speaker 2: oh yeah, whenever the like credit Pie for beating the
Speaker 2: fucking Nazis gets rolled out, everyone leaves us out, you know.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And he was well aware of the irony of him
Speaker 2: as an anti colonial writer working for the Eastern Service.
Speaker 2: He told his superiors, quote, if I broadcast as George orwell,
Speaker 2: I am as it were selling. My literary reputation, which
Speaker 2: so far as India is concerned, primarily arises chiefly from
Speaker 2: books of an anti imperialist tendency, some of which have
Speaker 2: been banned in India because some of his books are
Speaker 2: banned in India because they're anti colonial, and here he is.
Speaker 3: Doing colonial radio for them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is the like, I mean, this is
Speaker 2: this is part of why a lot of his friends
Speaker 2: were anti war is that were like, we hate the
Speaker 2: British government, we can't support them, right, And he's like,
Speaker 2: this is a big compromise for him. He gets really
Speaker 2: jaded about this job. He's not much of a speaker,
Speaker 2: he never had been at being sick and getting shot
Speaker 2: in the throat probably didn't help that. He wrote amazing
Speaker 2: scripts and he got like sort of interesting and sly
Speaker 2: things past the censors here and there. I forgot to
Speaker 2: include some examples. But who like invite anti colonial thinkers
Speaker 2: on to talk about something totally unrelated and just kind
Speaker 2: of vaguely get at anti colonial ideas.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well this is really I mean, this is a
Speaker 3: really interesting parallel to what's happening now with a lot
Speaker 3: of people trying to decide in this current election state
Speaker 3: that we're in. You know, people who are very against
Speaker 3: what the current administration might be supporting or doing at
Speaker 3: the border and in Gaza, but still having to find
Speaker 3: a way to like support the state of our current government.
Speaker 3: You know, it's a very interesting it's a very interesting topic.
Speaker 2: No, totally, and it's a it is a very similar
Speaker 2: like I feel, there's not a lot of things I
Speaker 2: could say. A lot of people say that George row
Speaker 2: will do this, George ro will do that, George Rowyll
Speaker 2: would probab Voe Forbiden, like and he feel dirty about it,
Speaker 2: and he talks shit about it, you know. Like that
Speaker 2: seems to be because he believed in democracy versus fascism,
Speaker 2: you know, and like he was willing to be in
Speaker 2: some ways more like compromised in order to defend what
Speaker 2: he believed was common decency. He's interesting and he like, well,
Speaker 2: we'll talk about some of it.
Speaker 3: More in a minute.
Speaker 2: And uh, there's no recordings of anything he did during
Speaker 2: this period. Apparently there's no recordings of his voice at all,
Speaker 2: which I like, wow, struggle to believe. I like read
Speaker 2: that somewhere, but I didn't then do my independent research.
Speaker 3: That is wild. And we even have like recording of
Speaker 3: like Abraham Lincoln somewhere, like on some cylinder somewhere, Yes,
Speaker 3: some I actually heard. I never heard it. I heard
Speaker 3: that we do somewhere, And that's where they figured out
Speaker 3: that his voice is a little bit more like tinny
Speaker 3: nothing deep booming voice that you think he's supposed to have,
Speaker 3: but more like Kenny sounding. I don't know if they's
Speaker 3: like or not. Hey, Abraham Lincoln.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's another example where I'm like, like, the Civil
Speaker 2: War in the US is another one of these examples
Speaker 2: where I'm like, yay, the Union an evil empire, you know.
Speaker 2: But I'm like, but the right side of that war.
Speaker 3: Yeah, right, like, undeniably the right side, even though they're terrible.
Speaker 2: Yeah, orwell tried to basically just be as good as
Speaker 2: he could while he was there. He said, about this time,
Speaker 2: I doubt whether I shall stay in this job much longer.
Speaker 2: But while here, I consider I have kept our propaganda
Speaker 2: slightly less disgusting than it might otherwise have been. He's
Speaker 2: got insight, yeah, And he like because he read he
Speaker 2: was listening to and reading all of the propaganda of
Speaker 2: like Germany and all the other countries, you know, and
Speaker 2: he was just like, how do I be less gross?
Speaker 2: How do I tell fewer lies?
Speaker 3: You know? Yeah?
Speaker 2: While doing war propaganda? And he didn't nail it, but
Speaker 2: he tried. It's around this time that the last trace
Speaker 2: of anti Semitism has gone. World War two obviously a
Speaker 2: high water mark for some anti Semitism. It shook a
Speaker 2: fair amount of anti Semites who were basically decent people
Speaker 2: into dropping that.
Speaker 3: You know, they saw the extreme there, they saw where
Speaker 3: that road goes.
Speaker 2: Yeah. He quit the BBC in nineteen forty three before
Speaker 2: the war's over. He's like, I can't do this anymore,
Speaker 2: to focus on writing what became his breakthrough book, Animal Farm.
Speaker 2: His wife Eileen probably helped him a lot with this.
Speaker 2: This is contested because people like to argue about everything,
Speaker 2: and it seems very likely that she was like, not
Speaker 2: quite a co writer, but like, I think they were close.
Speaker 2: I think that they were like, actually they cheated on
Speaker 2: each other constantly, right, And I don't know whether or
Speaker 2: not this was like them being dicks to each other
Speaker 2: or whether they were doing what was actually the style
Speaker 2: at the time, which was just to be in an
Speaker 2: open marriage, you know. And because they didn't write about
Speaker 2: their personal lives, so I don't know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, something like sounds like a thing that like European
Speaker 3: authors would do.
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. And they're both sickly. He's constantly down with
Speaker 2: bronchitis and shit, and she is suffering from uterine bleeding
Speaker 2: and has been for years. They're trying to have a
Speaker 2: kid but can't manage. It's probable that George is sterile.
Speaker 2: He also becomes the literary editor of the Tribune because actually,
Speaker 2: by the way, it's all stored in the neck, you know,
Speaker 2: and he had lost all that, right, isn't that the case.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'll have to look at the pub med literature
Speaker 3: on that, but yeah, I think that's right.
Speaker 2: Okay. He becomes the literary editor of the Tribune, which
Speaker 2: is a journal for the left wing of the Labor Party,
Speaker 2: what gets called the farthest left among the factions supporting
Speaker 2: the war. Further left of that is the anti war left.
Speaker 2: His friend George Woodcock wrote about this time. Even more
Speaker 2: than his predecessors, he opened the review pages to writers
Speaker 2: of almost every shade of political opinion. Only the Communists
Speaker 2: were uninvited. In those days. Quite apart from Orwell's particular
Speaker 2: antagonism towards it, the Communist Party, which was constantly clamoring
Speaker 2: for the suppression of rival minorities, was regarded as pretty
Speaker 2: far to the right in the ever shifting political spectrum.
Speaker 2: Basically since around nineteen seventeen, Anyone saying communist in the
Speaker 2: West meant bolshevik. Prior to that the word had broader meaning,
Speaker 2: But to say communist in this era meant pretty specifically
Speaker 2: like we take orders from Russia, not a we should
Speaker 2: have the worker's control for the means of production. The
Speaker 2: words for that were socialists, which usually implied democratic socialism,
Speaker 2: like Orwell, anarchist or Trotskyist. So and that helped me
Speaker 2: that like broke through a lot of like reading about
Speaker 2: this era was to be like, oh, overall, if someone
Speaker 2: says communist and they know what they're talking about, they're
Speaker 2: not just throwing it around as a slur, like they
Speaker 2: mean the communist party that is taking orders from Russia.
Speaker 2: And if they say trotskyist or anarchist or democratic socialist
Speaker 2: or socialist, they mean something different.
Speaker 3: M hm.
Speaker 2: So he finish his animal farm and five presses turn
Speaker 2: it down. One of them turned it down because, as
Speaker 2: Orwell suspected, everyone thought, Orwell is crazy for thinkiness Orwell
Speaker 2: has lost his mind. He's he's so anti communist, he's
Speaker 2: seeing communists everywhere. He's Spain broken. I mean, I think
Speaker 2: Spain broke him a little bit. But like, how could
Speaker 2: it not. Yeah, he suspected that a Soviet spy embedded
Speaker 2: in the Ministry of Information got a publisher to change
Speaker 2: its mind. It turns out he was right, no kidding.
Speaker 2: Soviet spy embedded in the Ministry of Information went to
Speaker 2: that publisher and was like, Yo, don't publish this.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 2: And so everyone's turning it down because it's anti Soviet
Speaker 2: and it's World War two and people are like, those
Speaker 2: are our allies right now? Yeah, yeah, we can't publish that,
Speaker 2: which I even I even kind of get yeah, you know, yeah,
Speaker 2: I even kind of be like, let's wait a couple
Speaker 2: of years on that. I don't know, I would probably
Speaker 2: still publish it, but I can and see where they're
Speaker 2: coming from. But then one press turned it down that
Speaker 2: I'm like sad about the anarchist press turned it down.
Speaker 3: That's a real disappointment, I know.
Speaker 2: And some of his anarchist friends, George wood Cockway keep
Speaker 2: quoting a lot because he's one of the first people
Speaker 2: who write a book about Gorge Orwell after he died.
Speaker 2: He as an anarchist historian and was friends close friends
Speaker 2: with Orwell, and he was like, hey, we should publish this.
Speaker 2: But he wasn't able to push it through like reach
Speaker 2: consensus or whatever. I don't know if that were consensus
Speaker 2: based because the anarchists they were anarchists and anti war,
Speaker 2: and Orwell socialist and pro war, but.
Speaker 3: It just such, you know, it makes me think that
Speaker 3: like if it had gone through and an anarchist press
Speaker 3: had done it, I think in the long run, just
Speaker 3: what it would have done for assuming it still would
Speaker 3: have hit the same way, which I imagine it would, like,
Speaker 3: just imagine what that would have done for anarchist literature.
Speaker 7: I know in general it would have made it mainstream.
Speaker 7: I know, I'm so mad about this in retrospect. And
Speaker 7: eventually Animal Farm found a publisher. It found an anti
Speaker 7: Stalinist left his publisher called Secord and Warburg. And Warburg
Speaker 7: of Secord and Warburg had been in Orwell's unit of
Speaker 7: the Home Guard. I think Orwell had recruited him and
Speaker 7: so it was part of that. Like, hey, yes, like
Speaker 7: pro war socialists are going to try and like have
Speaker 7: a socialist revolution with the Home Guard. That was a
Speaker 7: total non starter, but it was like the fun idea,
Speaker 7: you know, Yeah, made some good friends, made some friends
Speaker 7: along the way. That's exactlytant. Yeah. Meanwhile, in May nineteen
Speaker 7: forty four, the couple adopted a baby.
Speaker 2: His name is Richard. Not long after, the Nazis blew
Speaker 2: up their house, but they survived. They weren't home during
Speaker 2: the Blootz. Their house gets blown up, and Orwell had
Speaker 2: to like dig through the rubble for his books and
Speaker 2: kurt them away in a wheelbarrow. And as the war
Speaker 2: wound down in early nineteen forty five, Orwell, as a
Speaker 2: war journalist, headed off to Germany. But then tragedy strikes.
Speaker 2: Eileen is home with Richard, who is ten months old,
Speaker 2: and she wants to get a hysterectomy because of her
Speaker 2: uterine bleeding problem. But she's a kneemic And actually, you
Speaker 2: might be able to make better sense of this story
Speaker 2: than me. She's anemic, and the doctors aren't sure that
Speaker 2: they want to do it. They actually specifically recommend against it,
Speaker 2: not without her spending a month in the hospital getting
Speaker 2: blood transfusions, I think beforehand, but maybe afterwards she can't
Speaker 2: afford that. She goes in for the surgery anyway, against
Speaker 2: her doctor's recommendations, and she dies. It seems implied that
Speaker 2: this was a response to the anesthesia, and the courts
Speaker 2: determined there was no malpractice or anything. It was just
Speaker 2: really shit luck. And also anesthesia in nineteen forty five
Speaker 2: is not as good.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean just just surgical rates were worse, obviously,
Speaker 3: and I wonder if there was some pretty heavy bleeding
Speaker 3: during the surgery and there just wasn't enough blood product
Speaker 3: on top of that, and along with the lack of
Speaker 3: blood product and maybe having a bad reaction to some
Speaker 3: sedative or something they gave, probably combined to Yeah, there's
Speaker 3: so many things that could go wrong with surgery at
Speaker 3: that point. Yeah, I mean, there's things didn't go wrong
Speaker 3: with surgery now, right, I mean, we're much better than
Speaker 3: we were in the forties.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was like the actually it's funny on the
Speaker 2: on the you were you were the guest on the
Speaker 2: episode about the ambulance or of paramedics. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: And it was like, and those people were also the
Speaker 2: folks who developed not the paramedics, but some of the
Speaker 2: people who developed the paramedic practice were some of the
Speaker 2: people who developed better anesthesia and stuff too.
Speaker 3: You know, yeah, you know that that episode you had
Speaker 3: me on for the first paramedics in you in the
Speaker 3: world after that episode, you inspired me to to reach
Speaker 3: out to one of the main paramedics at the time,
Speaker 3: Chief John Moon, who was still around and still practicing,
Speaker 3: and I had him on the show and talked about it.
Speaker 3: And he was the first person to intubate somebody in
Speaker 3: the field, which just hadn't been done before. Usually that
Speaker 3: there's someone just bagging them the whole time if they
Speaker 3: have to, or giving them a suscitation, but no one
Speaker 3: had been intubated in the field before. He was the
Speaker 3: first person to do it. So that came like later
Speaker 3: we're talking like, you know, seventies, like so sixty seventies
Speaker 3: when these things start to happen, So things were much
Speaker 3: worse at the time of these surgeries. It's terrible. It's
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm and I know I always hate to
Speaker 3: like look back at medicine and judge because I know,
Speaker 3: like in forty years people are going to look back
Speaker 3: the things we're doing rightly so and be like monsters,
Speaker 3: monsters and the right because that's how medicine is supposed
Speaker 3: to be. We're suposed to be getting better. It's supposed
Speaker 3: to make look the things in the past look archaic.
Speaker 3: But yeah, it's an unfortunate. It's an unfortunate surgery that
Speaker 3: she had. I'm really curious to know if she was
Speaker 3: having like, uh, what was the cause of her bleeding,
Speaker 3: what was going on? But I'm sure there's there's no
Speaker 3: good data on what it was or no good, no good,
Speaker 3: nothing written down about it.
Speaker 2: And there's some books about her, and I've only read
Speaker 2: summaries of those books, uh, in preparation for this episode,
Speaker 2: you know, but like, yeah, it I'm not totally sure
Speaker 2: or well, it happens like while he's en route to
Speaker 2: Germany and he finds out and he turns around and
Speaker 2: rushes back home. And he gets home and everyone is like, well,
Speaker 2: you should probably unadopt that kid. I mean, you're like
Speaker 2: a guy, you know, and orwell is a devoted father,
Speaker 2: and he's like, the fuck, I will unadopt my child.
Speaker 3: That is a child.
Speaker 2: And his friends and family all pitch in to help him,
Speaker 2: and he is a devoted father.
Speaker 3: His son is still alive. Oh wow, yeah, what are
Speaker 3: you gonna say? Sorry, No, that's that would have really
Speaker 3: taked I mean done with him. Yeah, he already did one.
Speaker 3: That would have been two strikes, yeah, exactly. No, he
Speaker 3: his son is still alive and as we were cord
Speaker 3: this as we recorded, he's still alive. And he wrote
Speaker 3: about his father's about eighty. He wrote about his father
Speaker 3: Beneath that intellectual exterior beat a heart of deep paternal warmth,
Speaker 3: and he was determined to continue to bring me up
Speaker 3: as his son. And this and his writing actually about
Speaker 3: his father kind of helped me understand some of the
Speaker 3: stuff about how he doesn't address the personal things in
Speaker 3: his life. And his writing.
Speaker 2: Orwell was very British. He was very stiff, upper lip
Speaker 2: about everything. He never talked about his emotions much. He
Speaker 2: tried not to show them, and he didn't write or
Speaker 2: talk about Eileen or her death because his private life
Speaker 2: was private. He also kind of didn't talk about it
Speaker 2: to his friends, which fucked him up.
Speaker 3: I'm sure.
Speaker 2: Yeah, his son is absolutely convinced he was destroyed by
Speaker 2: Eileen's death, and so his own journals, Orwell's George Orwell's
Speaker 2: journals were almost entirely about his garden, and what he
Speaker 2: wrote about Eileen's death was Pollyantha roses on Eileen's grave
Speaker 2: have all rooted well, wow, and it's like kind of sweet,
Speaker 2: you know, It's like you're like, oh, you're a sisman
Speaker 2: from Britain. You were not set up to understand your emotions.
Speaker 3: Yeah right, He's just swallow it down yea. Yeah, and
Speaker 3: even then it found its way out. I mean that
Speaker 3: like translates deeply to like tremendous sorrow.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so he kept living his life for a while.
Speaker 2: He has a flat. His writing room is a wood
Speaker 2: shop with a carpenter's bench with chisels, because making bookshelves
Speaker 2: with no particular artistry is far more interesting in him
Speaker 2: than almost anything else. He makes a bunch of like
Speaker 2: toys for his kid, one of his richer's like first
Speaker 2: memory is like his dad carving a.
Speaker 3: Toy for him.
Speaker 2: And then the reason is his first memory is because
Speaker 2: Richard then falls and gets stitches in his head because
Speaker 2: he's extending on a stool to see it. You know,
Speaker 2: first memory, Yeah, totally. He enjoyed manual work as a
Speaker 2: distraction from writing. He did his actual writing in the
Speaker 2: living room on his typewriter. He never wore a suit
Speaker 2: or a hat. He always wore shabby corduroys with patched elbows,
Speaker 2: a shaggy tie, and unpolished shoes. He also wore trench
Speaker 2: coat instead of a suit.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 2: His friend George Woodcock wrote about him having once escaped
Speaker 2: from middle class conventions orwell, just did not find them
Speaker 2: worth the trouble of resuming.
Speaker 3: Good for him, Yeah, good for him. When do you
Speaker 3: do nineteen eighty four?
Speaker 2: So that's next.
Speaker 3: Oh sorry, gotta keep cutting up.
Speaker 2: But before we get into one of the best writers
Speaker 2: talking about the way that propaganda affects our brains, here's
Speaker 2: some people.
Speaker 4: Who've paid us in order to have you listen to
Speaker 4: what they have to say.
Speaker 3: And here back.
Speaker 2: So the other thing that he before, we'll get to
Speaker 2: the nineteen four stuff in a minute. The other thing
Speaker 2: he does during this eventful year nineteen forty five is
Speaker 2: he throws himself into prisoner support for anarchists. On December twelfth,
Speaker 2: nineteen forty four, an anarchist publisher called Freedom Press, the
Speaker 2: one that had turned down Animal Farm, which is still around.
Speaker 2: It's been around since like the eighteen eighties or something.
Speaker 2: It's like one of the longest running presses period. I mean,
Speaker 2: there's it's England, so there's probably presses that go back
Speaker 2: to eighteen or like eight sixty four or anything. I
Speaker 2: don't know whatever, But anyway, Freedom Press gets raided as
Speaker 2: well as five houses, and because they've been running an
Speaker 2: anti war newspaper called War Commentary, and they get imprisoned
Speaker 2: for running an anti war newspaper. Now, George Orwell, he's
Speaker 2: pro war as fuck. He has sold his literary reputation,
Speaker 2: as he's talked about, and he's been arguing with his
Speaker 2: anarchist friends for years. At this point, George Woodcock wrote
Speaker 2: about it. Quote Orwell, who had been attacking the anarchists
Speaker 2: in his Partisan Review articles, declared closed season on them
Speaker 2: as soon as they became the victims of an immoderate
Speaker 2: exercise of authority, because yeah, he's pro war, but he's
Speaker 2: really pro free speech and he likes the anarchists. He
Speaker 2: just disagrees with them.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it seems reasonable. Yeah, now he shouldn't. They
Speaker 3: should not be arrested for that. Yeah yeah.
Speaker 2: So a few months after the anarchists all arrested, this
Speaker 2: group called the Freedom Defense Committee was set up basically
Speaker 2: to fight for free speech for anti war dissenters, and
Speaker 2: George Orwell asson the vice chair of this organization. This
Speaker 2: is the only official position he will ever hold in
Speaker 2: any civil organization in his life, because he hates bureaucracy,
Speaker 2: but fortunately anarchist bureaucracy is like kind of more chaotic
Speaker 2: and lucy goosey, so it's like more up his alley,
Speaker 2: but he's still arguing about it. It's still kind of
Speaker 2: bureaucratic for him, and he like kind of bristles at it.
Speaker 3: And the anarchists are two organs nice for him or
Speaker 3: yeah some ways.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so he finances this group an animal farm
Speaker 2: is doing really well, and for the first time in
Speaker 2: his life, he's doing really well financially. So he throws
Speaker 2: a ton of the royalties from animal farm towards getting
Speaker 2: anarchist out of jail, and to me, that is really fitting.
Speaker 2: The other thing he does is he sets up a
Speaker 2: trust fund for his son, and like most of his
Speaker 2: money is going into this trust for his son. He
Speaker 2: lives super modestly, you know. Yeah, And some people will
Speaker 2: argue and I kind of buy it that he's like
Speaker 2: he didn't know he was about to die, but he
Speaker 2: like knows his health is kind of fucked.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, so he's like forties. As a man
Speaker 3: in his forties, I feel that that's always on your mind.
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. How do I make sure my kids are okay,
Speaker 2: and like, yeah, exactly, Yeah, And he's an interesting man
Speaker 2: at this point. He has friends among everyone he considers
Speaker 2: to be basically on some level fighting for a free world.
Speaker 2: He's friends with the Labor Party, including British intelligence agents
Speaker 2: and anarchists, and obviously those two groups don't like each other.
Speaker 3: M hm.
Speaker 2: He won't abide a fact. He want to buy two groups.
Speaker 2: He want to buy fascists and he won't to buy
Speaker 2: Party communists, but he actually fights for the free speech
Speaker 2: of both of those groups. He believes that fascist and
Speaker 2: communists should be heavily socially shamed, and that everyone should
Speaker 2: know their ideas are evil, but that they shouldn't be
Speaker 2: locked up for having terrible ideas, only acting on them.
Speaker 2: And considering he has thrown grenades into fascist trenches, I'm
Speaker 2: willing to believe him that he is suitably anti fascist
Speaker 2: to hold that position. He has the cred I think
Speaker 2: he's the he is the guy to make this argument. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but he's still organizing against them. When the last big
Speaker 2: leftist bookstore that wasn't under communist control gets bought out
Speaker 2: by a communist chains store, that sentence blew my mind too.
Speaker 2: If that blew your mind a little bit. That blew
Speaker 2: my mind a little.
Speaker 3: Bit well as you to repeat it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, when the last big leftist bookstore that wasn't under
Speaker 2: communist control got bought out by a communist chains store
Speaker 2: like Orwell, starts plotting with his anarchist friends to start
Speaker 2: an actual leftist bookstore that would be like pluralistic and
Speaker 2: basically just like not you know, not stal not under
Speaker 2: control Stalin. Yeah, and he also financed an anarchist literary journal.
Speaker 2: This does not make him an anarchist. I just as
Speaker 2: an anarchist, I'm going to find the places he overlaps
Speaker 2: with us more than other people. Right, you know, he
Speaker 2: could do the same thing where he could other groups
Speaker 2: of people that he also was heavily involved with, right, Yeah,
Speaker 2: But he likes his friends and he wants to fight
Speaker 2: the communist stranghold on the left, you know. And at
Speaker 2: this point his life is kind of winding down. It
Speaker 2: sometimes seems like he knows it. He starts spending even
Speaker 2: more time in bed Sick. He moves up to an
Speaker 2: island in Scotland called Jura and to live that good,
Speaker 2: good rural life, and he like first just for the summers,
Speaker 2: and he starts wintering there. Everyone's like, could you please
Speaker 2: fucking not winter there? You're always sick.
Speaker 3: I was going to say, can you go back to
Speaker 3: like Algeria, Morocco or it was warm.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 2: But he like he moves up there and he spends
Speaker 2: his time chopping wood and fishing with his son and
Speaker 2: like carving toys for his son, and he like gets
Speaker 2: a little bit of peace here at the end of
Speaker 2: his life. The wars are over. He's lost his wife,
Speaker 2: but he's got his kid, and he keeps fucking up
Speaker 2: his health by being too active. Whenever they release him
Speaker 2: from the sick word, because I'll spend like months of
Speaker 2: a time down with ammonia or whatever, right, and they'll
Speaker 2: like release him from the sick word, and they'll be like,
Speaker 2: if we let you go, are you just going to
Speaker 2: go back to the fucking island and chop wood? And
Speaker 2: he's like, probably, I like the one they don't lie
Speaker 2: to us, Okay, Yeah, he's pretty honest about it, I think.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And at one time he almost drowns when his boat capsizes,
Speaker 2: and that was not good for his health, Oh my god.
Speaker 2: And the other thing he does is he writes nineteen
Speaker 2: eighty four, he's getting sicker and sicker. He catches friend
Speaker 2: of the Pod tuberculosis in nineteen forty seven, and he
Speaker 2: Fevershly writes this novel like Fevershly kind of literally in
Speaker 2: this case, he it's the most important thing he's going
Speaker 2: to do with his life. And in terms of impact
Speaker 2: on society, it was I genuinely think this book helped
Speaker 2: bring multiple generations of people towards recognizing the problems of
Speaker 2: detalitarianism and how it can creep in anywhere. He also
Speaker 2: wrote about writing. He was actually not known as like
Speaker 2: Orwell the novelist. He was known as Orwell the political
Speaker 2: commentaor and essayist, and also like movie reviewer and book
Speaker 2: reviewer and like cultural critic and stuff like that, who
Speaker 2: also wrote some books.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: He wrote about writing. He believed in writing and plain
Speaker 2: language without jargon. Author Christian Williams puts it, Orwell is
Speaker 2: not renowned as a deep thinker, partly because deep thinking
Speaker 2: has become confused with difficult writing. That is to say,
Speaker 2: with writing that is difficult to read. It is in
Speaker 2: fact harder to produce smooth, clear prose, but readers are
Speaker 2: prone to assume that if they do not struggle over
Speaker 2: a passage, then the writer must not have either They're
Speaker 2: just as likely to suppose or a certain type of
Speaker 2: reader is anyway that if a piece of writing is obscure,
Speaker 2: it is always necessarily profound.
Speaker 3: And that I know as a great breakdown for a
Speaker 3: simple person like myself. Yeah, who wants to read more
Speaker 3: stuff but wants to be able to do it without
Speaker 3: always struggling, hurt in your brain and hurting my brain
Speaker 3: to get through. I know, sometimes you have to. Just
Speaker 3: sometimes you have to. That's that's what has to happen.
Speaker 3: But that shouldn't always be the case. To get great
Speaker 3: thoughts and to hear read beautiful words, you.
Speaker 2: Know, Yeah, if we should say our ideas as simply
Speaker 2: as they can be said without dumbing them down right,
Speaker 2: you know. And I didn't even I got that for morewell,
Speaker 2: and I'd kind of forgotten. He wrote an essay in
Speaker 2: nineteen forty six called Politics in the English Language, and
Speaker 2: it's about how to write persuasively and well. In it,
Speaker 2: he lays out six rules for writing, which I think
Speaker 2: are useful to any writer today, so I'm going to
Speaker 2: read them. One never use a metaphor simile or other
Speaker 2: figure of speech which you are used to seeing in print. Two.
Speaker 2: Never use a long word where a short one will do. Three.
Speaker 2: If it is possible to cut out a word, always
Speaker 2: cut it out.
Speaker 3: Four.
Speaker 2: Never use the passive voice where you can use the active.
Speaker 2: Actually he cut out the word voice out of that sentence,
Speaker 2: but since the listener isn't necessarily a writer, I actually
Speaker 2: think it is an important word for context. So that's
Speaker 2: shout it that is. Yeah. Five, Never use a foreign phrase,
Speaker 2: a scientific word, or a jargon word, if you can
Speaker 2: think of an everyday or English equivalent. And this one
Speaker 2: people use to be like always xenophobic, right, And I
Speaker 2: genuinely don't believe he's being xenophobic here. I genuinely believe
Speaker 2: he's talking about communicating clearly to people who can read. Yeah,
Speaker 2: his writing as best as possible.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Six, break any of these rules sooner than write anything
Speaker 2: outright barbarous. And I'm certain he would consider ZENOPHOBI even
Speaker 2: those that barbaras is actually kind of a kind of
Speaker 2: has a xenophobic originally. Yeah, yeah, well barbar being like,
Speaker 2: oh they don't speak like us, But like, I'm certain
Speaker 2: that he would have considered xenophobia to be like an
Speaker 2: example of being outright barbarous.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: Another thing that happens here at the end of his
Speaker 2: life is what anyone listening this far, who's on the
Speaker 2: far left of the more authoritarian type, has been mad
Speaker 2: at me for not talking about what he is infamous for.
Speaker 2: In some circles, it's called Orwell's List. I'm assuming you
Speaker 2: live in a beautiful world where you haven't heard of
Speaker 2: Orwell's list. You've heard of Orwell's list.
Speaker 3: I have not, and I'm a little worried, but I'm ready.
Speaker 2: It sounds bad. Orwell's obsessive list maker, and he kept
Speaker 2: like lists on everything. It was like ten flowers I
Speaker 2: want to grow. Or he would have fucking loved modern internet,
Speaker 2: right buzzy, Yeah, he would have. He would have probably
Speaker 2: worked for some BuzzFeed articles. Like he was a working
Speaker 2: class in not working class, but he was a working writer,
Speaker 2: you know. And one thing he did privately was keep
Speaker 2: track of whom he's suspected to be secretly in bed
Speaker 2: with the Kremlin, either Soviet spies or just Stalinists. He
Speaker 2: used the word communists. One of his friends was this
Speaker 2: Labor Party woman, Celia Kerwin, and she was trying to
Speaker 2: coordinate leftist propaganda against Stalinism. So she like asks orwell, like, hey,
Speaker 2: can you write some leftist anti Stalinist stuff for us?
Speaker 2: And he's like, no, I'm sick of shit, Like I'm
Speaker 2: not doing that. I'm too sick. But then he thought
Speaker 2: it over and he sent her a list of thirty
Speaker 2: eight names. This was a list of people to not
Speaker 2: ask to write anti Soviet propaganda because they're probably pro Soviet,
Speaker 2: like secretly and tankies today make a huge deal out
Speaker 2: of this, and it's like not good to provide a
Speaker 2: list of aims to the government of suspected communists in
Speaker 2: the nineteen forties, right, Yeah, can we understand it in context?
Speaker 2: I can. It was nothing bad happened to any of
Speaker 2: these people. They were just not asked to write anti
Speaker 2: Soviet propaganda, right.
Speaker 3: And it seems like it's being compared to like McCarthyism
Speaker 3: in the US, which I don't know much about what
Speaker 3: was happening in Britain at that time. So that was
Speaker 3: I feel like it wasn't to this extreme that we had.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it didn't go out to the intelligence community
Speaker 2: more broadly that we're aware of. It might have. It
Speaker 2: might have been turned into let's go spy in all
Speaker 2: these people, right, you know, but as far as I
Speaker 2: can tell, these were people that he did not believe
Speaker 2: would be good at writing anti Soviet propaganda because they
Speaker 2: were secretly pro Soviet.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that sounds like a reasonable thing. Yeah, I mean
Speaker 3: the people like if if you have audience members who
Speaker 3: are upset about that, I'm sorry, I apologize. I'm sure
Speaker 3: there's some nuance to it that I'm missing, But seems
Speaker 3: like it was a pretty reasonable thing in context for
Speaker 3: him to do.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's like it's one of those things where
Speaker 2: was like, yeah, probably he shouldn't have done it. I
Speaker 2: don't know, but I'm not. The way it's made out
Speaker 2: is just like he's a snitch who provides lists of communists,
Speaker 2: like keeps track of the communists and gives them to
Speaker 2: the government, which is like technically true and a brilliant
Speaker 2: example of the way that Orwell is taken out of
Speaker 2: context by everyone.
Speaker 3: You know, I mean you who do you think takes
Speaker 3: him out of context the most? Of all the people
Speaker 3: who take him out of context? What bothers you the most?
Speaker 2: Oh, okay, what bothers me the most is when the
Speaker 2: right wing try and have him. And actually we're going
Speaker 2: to talk a little bit more about how that happened
Speaker 2: and how it's not like his fault, but he could
Speaker 2: have taken some better steps around it. Three months before
Speaker 2: he died, he marries a woman named Sonia Brown. Now
Speaker 2: they get married in the hospital room. People like to
Speaker 2: argue about her, implying she was kind of gold digging
Speaker 2: to marry this famous man who's dying. Others say that
Speaker 2: she was crucial to making his last days pleasant and
Speaker 2: that they were in love. There were people gold digging
Speaker 2: on him when he was dying. I don't know if
Speaker 2: she was among them. I think in some way she
Speaker 2: might have been politically gold digging. We'll talk about that
Speaker 2: in a second. There's a lot of people who were like, wow,
Speaker 2: while I was alone with orwell, he told me in
Speaker 2: private that I get twenty five percent of all the
Speaker 2: money from his books from now on because he had
Speaker 2: like set up a company, Like he got told to
Speaker 2: set up a company to manage his copyrights, right, And
Speaker 2: I don't know whether those people were grifting him or not.
Speaker 2: And like there's like a whole thing about his financial
Speaker 2: legacy that I only half care about. So I only
Speaker 2: half read about sure Tuberculosis killed George Orwell and January
Speaker 2: twenty first, nineteen fifty, when he was forty six years old.
Speaker 2: He wanted an Anglican burial, although he wasn't really religious.
Speaker 2: His son, Richard, was raised by his aunt, Avril Dunn
Speaker 2: and her husband, who was a Scottish wounded veteran named
Speaker 2: Bill Dunn. He wrote in his will that no one
Speaker 2: should write a biography of him. I hope you'll forgive me,
Speaker 2: George that see what was broken a long time ago.
Speaker 2: And I tried not to be total biography. But immediately
Speaker 2: after he died, the right wing started using Orwell's legacy
Speaker 2: in the Cold War, Cold War being a phrase that
Speaker 2: George Orwell invented.
Speaker 3: I didn't know that. I didn't either want.
Speaker 2: To start this. I mean I always knew all of this.
Speaker 2: I don't have to do research. I know everything well clearly.
Speaker 2: People like often act like I know everything, and I'm like, no,
Speaker 2: I just read a lot of books over the course
Speaker 2: of a week, like shrink it down to six to
Speaker 2: nine thousand words.
Speaker 3: It's pretty beautiful.
Speaker 2: And Sonia, his widow, worked for the Propaganda Department into
Speaker 2: the British Foreign Office, and they got Animal Farm translated
Speaker 2: into sixteen languages, and then she, because she now owns
Speaker 2: the rights to his work, she married him. This is
Speaker 2: my conspiracy mindedness. I don't know enough about her. My
Speaker 2: like instinct is that she was like, I'm a British
Speaker 2: intelligence person and I want to use or what I
Speaker 2: was writing. I don't know.
Speaker 3: You say, they don't know. Oh man, she could.
Speaker 2: Have been amazing and fine, I don't know, but she
Speaker 2: certainly had very different politics than I do because she
Speaker 2: I mean, yes, she gets Animal Farm translated into sixteen languages,
Speaker 2: and then she sells the rights to Animal Farm to
Speaker 2: the fucking CIA in the United States. What who made
Speaker 2: it into a feature length cartoon cartoon? Yeah, there's the
Speaker 2: movie version of the nineteen fifty four version of Animal
Speaker 2: Farm is animated. So the first feature length animated film
Speaker 2: produced in England.
Speaker 3: Actually, well, yeah, I think I have vague recollections of
Speaker 3: seeing that somewhere at some point.
Speaker 2: Yeah, produced by the fucking CIA. That's awesome. Yeah, And
Speaker 2: so I'm like, but you know what, Orwell might have
Speaker 2: done that himself if he lived. I want to hold
Speaker 2: him as like he was with thoughts, but he clearly
Speaker 2: worked with the government for anti communist propaganda. That was
Speaker 2: clearly something he believed in doing and did numerous times.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's probably was something again that he didn't like.
Speaker 3: But he might have been like, all right, they seem
Speaker 3: to be firmly against this group of people. I am
Speaker 3: firmly against right.
Speaker 2: The CIA might have been a step too far for him.
Speaker 2: It might not have been. I don't know, someone knows.
Speaker 2: People try to use him to be like he would
Speaker 2: have been pro Brexit, and there's like a lot of
Speaker 2: bunch of like orwell scholars who were like, oh, well,
Speaker 2: he liked England, which is true. He was actually kind
Speaker 2: of a patriot. He believed in like the better parts
Speaker 2: of what he saw in the English character, and so
Speaker 2: he hated colonialism partly for what it did to Britain.
Speaker 2: That wasn't his primary concern, but you know, yeah, I
Speaker 2: think And so people were like, oh, you would hated
Speaker 2: the EU or and wanted Brexit, but I'm pretty sure
Speaker 2: he wrote extensively about wanting to set up basically the EU,
Speaker 2: and he was like, no, we should all come together
Speaker 2: to like make sure nothings don't happen again and stuff
Speaker 2: and like have like a I think even called the
Speaker 2: European Parliament. I didn't include this in the script because
Speaker 2: I didn't do enough deep research onto it. So I
Speaker 2: don't think he would have been pro Brexit, but people
Speaker 2: like to argue about it.
Speaker 3: M h.
Speaker 2: And these days you have Elon Musk and other evil
Speaker 2: motherfuckers calling things Orwellian or well might have shot those people.
Speaker 2: Who's to say everyone wants to claim or Well, everyone
Speaker 2: loves Orwell everyone but one group, the authoritarian left. They
Speaker 2: hate him with a fiery passion. That hatred was reciprocated.
Speaker 2: It's part of why I like him. He actually wrote
Speaker 2: explicitly about his words getting taken out of context. He
Speaker 2: wrote about animal farm, for example, quote I meant the
Speaker 2: moral to be that revolutions only affect improvement when the
Speaker 2: masses are alert and know how to chuck out their
Speaker 2: leaders as soon as the latter have done their job.
Speaker 2: The turning point of the story was supposed to be
Speaker 2: when the pigs kept the milk and apples for themselves.
Speaker 2: And then in PARENTHESESI rights kronstat, which I did a
Speaker 2: whole six parter about, which was when the Soviets really
Speaker 2: finally betrayed the rest of the revolution and took power
Speaker 2: or they kind of did it all along with that
Speaker 2: was like the final battle kind of it. If people
Speaker 2: think I am defending the status quo, that is, I
Speaker 2: think because they have grown pessimistic and assume that there
Speaker 2: is no alternative except dictatorship or lase fare capitalism. And
Speaker 2: so I do know he would have been fucking miserable
Speaker 2: about what has happened to animal farm and what has
Speaker 2: happened to his works to be used not for socialism
Speaker 2: but for capitalism.
Speaker 3: Every group will mis represent a historical figure to their
Speaker 3: own ends, for sure. Yeah, but no seems to be
Speaker 3: more oblivious and do it incorrectly than the far right. Yeah,
Speaker 3: it's just it's amazing, like it, I know it's a joke,
Speaker 3: but the people who like are shocked that rage against
Speaker 3: the machine was like maybe not into their thing, or
Speaker 3: that the again, the show The Boys was making fun
Speaker 3: of them all along, like like it's it seems like
Speaker 3: a joke, but there really are people who just don't
Speaker 3: see it. They don't see like these they No, one
Speaker 3: seems to be more oblivious than the far right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you're right, or they're just like because
Speaker 2: I think overall actually Orwall has this thing where he
Speaker 2: said at one point there's no intellectuals on the right.
Speaker 2: There used to be, but the last one died in
Speaker 2: like nineteen thirty eight or whatever. I don't remember exactly
Speaker 2: the quote, but like he clearly didn't think much of
Speaker 2: the right wing from an academic or intelligency at point
Speaker 2: of view or whatever. Yeah, And I think that overall
Speaker 2: the right wing is like not as good at culture.
Speaker 2: They do it. Some amazing cultural stuff has come from
Speaker 2: the right wing right, like, they are sometimes very good
Speaker 2: at it, But overall, I would argue that the broad
Speaker 2: left is does a better job of it, whereas the
Speaker 2: right wing tends to like instead be better at like
Speaker 2: political power and violence.
Speaker 3: You know, you argue it's more important to power.
Speaker 2: Yeah, if you kill all of your opponents, then you
Speaker 2: don't have any opponents anymore, right exactly, Yeah, right, Yeah,
Speaker 2: And so I think in some ways they got to
Speaker 2: snipe our work, you know, right.
Speaker 3: I mean it's like you don't find very many I mean, honestly,
Speaker 3: it's hard to find really funny right wing people, like
Speaker 3: the right wing like artists, it's hard to find ones
Speaker 3: they're really funny. You can probably find some they're really smart.
Speaker 3: I think that's that's for sure a given. But and
Speaker 3: certainly some musicians that are there are talented, but it's
Speaker 3: hard to find really funny people. I mean, you get
Speaker 3: like comedians who are like somehow ashamed and go right
Speaker 3: sort of as like a weird response, like Louis c k.
Speaker 3: They do something bad and then they kind of like
Speaker 3: steer into it, you know. Yeah, but I don't think
Speaker 3: Louis c K ten fifteen years ago would have ever
Speaker 3: considered himself on the right wing, you know, or conservative.
Speaker 2: When I get you get into this thing where it's
Speaker 2: like I feel like overall, the edge lord as a
Speaker 2: political construct, you know, like the person who's like edgy
Speaker 2: on purpose and pushing the boundaries actually used to be
Speaker 2: kind of a left wing construction, like all throughout the
Speaker 2: nineteenth century of a lot of this like literature that's
Speaker 2: like all blood and amorality and you know whatever, and
Speaker 2: it's like leftist. And then at some point we've started
Speaker 2: to see that switch where the edge lord is now
Speaker 2: like kind of but more of a right wing construction.
Speaker 2: It's like more often a right wing construction than it
Speaker 2: used to be. And so like the edgy centrist, it's
Speaker 2: how you end up with, Like, what's that comedian who
Speaker 2: I actually like but I don't remember.
Speaker 3: He's dead.
Speaker 2: He smokes a lot. Fuck George Carlin, Yeah, George Carlin.
Speaker 2: You know he's like this like edgy, anti authoritarian, right. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and now the right wing is a little bit like
Speaker 2: trying to have him as their guy.
Speaker 3: He's not absolutely so that that's hurtful.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, me as a great sketch Politics in America.
Speaker 2: I'll show you politics in America. One man holding up
Speaker 2: both puppets. Oh, I like the puppet on the left. Well,
Speaker 2: I like the puppet on the right.
Speaker 3: Like, I don't know that bit, but I'll google it afterwards.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's good. It's just yelling. He's like, you have
Speaker 2: the same fucking puppet. Shut up America, go back to sleep.
Speaker 3: He's you know, you see, like even on smaller levels,
Speaker 3: like just if you online, like the right wing trolls,
Speaker 3: all they do is basically use some variation of things
Speaker 3: they've learned from seeing people on the left respond to things,
Speaker 3: and then they just co opt them and make it
Speaker 3: sort of weirdly racist. That's just like the little trick
Speaker 3: that they use every time. And yeah, it's very, very
Speaker 3: frustrating and it's very but it's really nice to do
Speaker 3: this deep dive on Orwell because he is so ubiquitous
Speaker 3: in pop culture and he's influenced so many things, and
Speaker 3: he's used every day from like you know, Apple ads
Speaker 3: in the past to like HEDD movies to like, you know,
Speaker 3: Elon Musk now on Twitter, like you're saying, calling everything
Speaker 3: that he doesn't like or welling in. It's like it's
Speaker 3: constantly used. It's really nice to hear what a little
Speaker 3: bit more about what the person was actually into.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he was imperfect and absolutely committed to the
Speaker 2: left and overall tried to be better and like believed
Speaker 2: the end of the day his socialism. He didn't he
Speaker 2: didn't believe in common decency because he was a socialist.
Speaker 2: He believed in socialism because he believed in common decency.
Speaker 2: And it's just the fact that he's willing to go
Speaker 2: after the left when they're evil as well as the
Speaker 2: right that like leaves him open to this misinterpretation. And
Speaker 2: I think it's because people are afraid of nuanced They
Speaker 2: want black and white stories with good guys and bad guys.
Speaker 2: I mean, this is a story where his anarchist friends
Speaker 2: are kind of being idiots, you know. I mean, I
Speaker 2: don't know, I don't I think I probably would have
Speaker 2: been pro war in World War Two. I don't know,
Speaker 2: Like I didn't live in England at the time, but
Speaker 2: like overall, I'm like, could we please just kill the
Speaker 2: Nazis and figure out the rest later, you know, right,
Speaker 2: And they shouldn't have turned down animal farm probably and whatever.
Speaker 2: But it's like, you know, like like he just believed
Speaker 2: in what he believed in and he tried to do
Speaker 2: it and he had he was emotionally stunted by being
Speaker 2: kind of a motherfucker and by yeah, I should poison
Speaker 2: you masculinity and Britishness and colonialness.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, But that's the story of George orwell as as
Speaker 2: I understand it. There's a million stories about him. They're
Speaker 2: all different.
Speaker 1: This is mine.
Speaker 3: That was very very cool. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2: So where are you at in terms of imposter syndrome
Speaker 2: and still just kind of like fuck that guy? It's
Speaker 2: a great question. Okay, if you're still like this guy.
Speaker 2: I was still I wrote him off for years. I'm
Speaker 2: still at fuck this guy. Yeah, but he had imposter syndrome,
Speaker 2: But also fuck this guy.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's fair. Yeah, I mean he might have said
Speaker 3: the same thing.
Speaker 5: I know.
Speaker 2: I wish he'd fucking written about how he actually felt
Speaker 2: about ship so I had a better fucking sense of
Speaker 2: that stuff, you know. Yeah, but he didn't. That's my
Speaker 2: problematic fave. Yeah, that was the original subtitle. This was
Speaker 2: George Orwell pro problematic fave. Probably I'm gonna go with
Speaker 2: George Orwell and the War for Common Decency and then
Speaker 2: subtitle it Marvel talking about a problematic fave.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, listener will already know what happened because it'll
Speaker 2: be in your podcast app.
Speaker 3: You're in the future, I know.
Speaker 2: But if people have a podcast app, is there anything
Speaker 2: that they can do with it?
Speaker 3: Oh? You know what you could do with it? After
Speaker 3: you listen to these episodes, you should check out my podcast,
Speaker 3: The House of Pod. It is a fun look at
Speaker 3: things in public health and medicine and where it intersects
Speaker 3: with things like popular culture or the news. And I
Speaker 3: think you'll enjoy it. And I'm gonna keep begging Margaret
Speaker 3: to come onto my show as well, so you might
Speaker 3: hear her as well on it. In the near future.
Speaker 3: You can definitely hear some episodes with Sophie and other
Speaker 3: people who've been on this podcast are also regular guests
Speaker 3: on the House of Pod And you'll like it.
Speaker 2: Hell yeah. And if you're listening to this when it
Speaker 2: comes out, you probably have like one day left to
Speaker 2: back my Kickstarter. And if you're late, it's too late.
Speaker 2: They only make books that the No, it's a book.
Speaker 2: You can get it where we get books. It might
Speaker 2: be in pre order if it's before September twenty four,
Speaker 2: twenty twenty four. If it's after that, it's in print somewhere.
Speaker 2: Unless it's not unless you're listening to this three hundred
Speaker 2: years in the future, in which case, congratulations. And I'm
Speaker 2: impressed at the longevity of digital media. And I hope
Speaker 2: that you all are alive. I don't have a lot
Speaker 2: of faith in you, but being alive. Really that's our fault. Sorry, sorry, sorry,
Speaker 2: the future. We should have tried harder.
Speaker 3: We blew it.
Speaker 2: Yeah anyway, unless we did. I mean, if you're listening,
Speaker 2: we didn't blow it. Totally true, you're alive to hear it.
Speaker 2: I hope your underground tunnels are nice. You're You're welcome.
Speaker 3: Future.
Speaker 2: I might help dig those tunnels. We'll see, we will see.
Speaker 2: You all next week. What's the World?
Speaker 5: Bye Bye, Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a
Speaker 5: production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts on cool
Speaker 5: Zone Media, visit our website.
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