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Speaker 1: Welcome to Pathology with doctor Priya. Doctor, welcome back to

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Speaker 1: Zone seven and welcome home.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I went on a little bit of an adventure.

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Speaker 2: As always, I'm always traveling in between here and there.

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Speaker 2: But for good reason. It was the most beautiful wedding

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Speaker 2: of an old family friend. I've known this family for

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Speaker 2: over thirty years. I used to babysit them, My mom

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Speaker 2: used to babysit them. And the middle son, who I

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Speaker 2: held as a baby at his prisoning, got married. Oh

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Speaker 2: and so I was in tears, and oh, yeah, I'm fallen.

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Speaker 1: Yes I do. I love a wedding. Even if I

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Speaker 1: don't know the people, I can enjoy it.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it's such a beautiful thing. You know, so much

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Speaker 2: hope ahead. And then I feel like these celebrations are rare, right,

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Speaker 2: they're beautiful moments. We got to embrace them every just everything,

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Speaker 2: ounce of it right exactly. So that was that. I

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Speaker 2: went to a concert, I saw some friends from high

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Speaker 2: school and had some productive meetings in New York.

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Speaker 1: So, you know, all good, fantastic, all right. Well, you

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Speaker 1: know what, before I get to the topic for tonight,

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Speaker 1: I wanted to tell you you were so timely when

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Speaker 1: you were teaching us, you know, when more investigation needs

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Speaker 1: to happen, that they'll use sometimes terminology that we're not

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Speaker 1: familiar with regarding the cause of death. You know, they

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Speaker 1: just did that in the fifteen year old's death when

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Speaker 1: she was found in the trunk of the car of

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Speaker 1: the singer David And that's what they put And I went,

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Speaker 1: I know what that means, because doctor Pria just told me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I mean I did a little blurb on

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Speaker 2: Court TV. They don't pay me to say that, but

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Speaker 2: it's sort of explaining the same thing. You know, why

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Speaker 2: hasn't he been charged? And I mean, I'm not a

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Speaker 2: legal mind. I'm the Emmy, but you know, I'm speaking

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Speaker 2: from a doctor's perspective handled cases like this, As we said,

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Speaker 2: they're very complex and they can't you know, until we

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Speaker 2: find a cause of death in her, which, as we discuss,

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Speaker 2: is you know, challenging ahead. Many many modalities need to

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Speaker 2: be used. How can you even bring a charge right

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Speaker 2: without knowing what your what the crime is really other

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Speaker 2: than you know, are they even going to call it

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Speaker 2: a homicide based on the condition of her body? So

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Speaker 2: I don't want to jump ahead and assume guilt. There's

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Speaker 2: been other rumblings online, nothing that's been verified about other

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Speaker 2: people maybe involved, you know, in his close knit circle.

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Speaker 2: Then her family might have known about the involvement or

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Speaker 2: when she became involved. There's a video from school like circulating,

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Speaker 2: which I haven't really looked at that much. You know,

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Speaker 2: I'm really trying to stay on the medical aspect of it,

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Speaker 2: the forensic pathology aspect. This is where the police, you know,

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Speaker 2: I think we talked about, really need to dig deep

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Speaker 2: and set the stage for what happened. You'll put the

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Speaker 2: story together because how you know, how did she end

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Speaker 2: up in the trunk dismembered? And then you know, when

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Speaker 2: was the last time she was heard from? She's been

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Speaker 2: missing for a year. What's going on? You know, I

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Speaker 2: suspect she's not in that trunk a year, but you know,

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Speaker 2: because I started smelling right and it was abandoned. But

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Speaker 2: who knows? And that's really where it is. Who knows.

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Speaker 1: But you know, Priya, when I saw the word deferred,

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Speaker 1: I thought, we've just learned that from doctor Priya because

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Speaker 1: I had never seen that before.

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Speaker 2: Right, And that's really like a weird thing to say.

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Speaker 1: But it literally just means they need more investigation.

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Speaker 2: They don't know, correct, right, But I think they also

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Speaker 2: need so you know, we can just touch on it.

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Speaker 2: I always say pending for their studies because yes, any investigation,

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Speaker 2: but I think they also need her toxiclly, there's other

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Speaker 2: medical stuff.

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Speaker 1: That I think that's why there hasn't been an arrest.

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Speaker 1: They're waiting for it all the time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they can't charge him until they know what they're

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Speaker 2: charging and who they're charging, et cetera.

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Speaker 1: And you know, there's all kind of rumors that are

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Speaker 1: already swirling around. One was that there was a baby

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Speaker 1: found somewhere near and all that, and you know, y'all,

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Speaker 1: that has not been verified, so don't keep spreading that

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Speaker 1: till we know something. And that's not anything that's been

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Speaker 1: released from the autopsy. I'll tell you that, not.

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Speaker 2: At all, not at all, not that I know of.

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Speaker 2: And as far as I know, she was the only

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Speaker 2: one in the trunk, in the plastic bag. That's what

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Speaker 2: I think is the most reputable piece of information, you know,

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Speaker 2: not you know, they said the producer might have involved.

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Speaker 2: I mean, there's so many sort of speculative things that

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Speaker 2: can't be verified, and obviously the police, right are the

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Speaker 2: ones to verify that, and that's why there's so much

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Speaker 2: going on that And really, you know, I think I've

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Speaker 2: hinted at this that in the past, we have, at

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Speaker 2: least in Rhode Island, seven days to release a death certificate. Okay,

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Speaker 2: And let's say I know the cause and manner of death, okay,

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Speaker 2: But they don't want the candidate suspect to know that

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Speaker 2: I know, because if he if let's say, I know

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Speaker 2: it's a strangulation, he goes, oh, she was strangled. Wait,

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Speaker 2: that's not released to the public. How do you know that? Right?

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Speaker 2: You trip them up in the interview. And so I

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Speaker 2: have held legally held I've released the body, but I've

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Speaker 2: held the death certificate from being public, if you will.

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Speaker 2: And every state law is different, like is the cause

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Speaker 2: of death public? Is the manner of death public? Here,

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Speaker 2: the cause of death is public, the manner of death

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Speaker 2: is not. I have no idea why that's been dictated

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Speaker 2: by law for eons, like way before my time here,

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Speaker 2: And it's a very specific state to state. But at

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Speaker 2: the same time, like, we don't want any information while

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Speaker 2: they investigate to be leaked to the public. So sometimes

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Speaker 2: they will artfully either stay pending or deferred or they'll

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Speaker 2: have me like in my case is they'll be like, doc,

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Speaker 2: can you hold it a few days until you hear

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Speaker 2: back from us to give us that power in that

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Speaker 2: interview process. And for me, I'm happy to comply. That

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Speaker 2: doesn't mean I'm favoring the police. My exam is my exam.

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Speaker 1: Right, Your fundings aren't going to change.

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Speaker 2: So if they say hold it a few days, that

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Speaker 2: helps the investigation, that's to help the deceit it that

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Speaker 2: I examined, right, I'm not like convening with the police,

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Speaker 2: like I'm not biased. I want to be careful about that,

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Speaker 2: but it's just to make sure the investigative process is fair,

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Speaker 2: really unbiased. They have information and let's see what we

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Speaker 2: can find and that may also help their scene investigation

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Speaker 2: further and their analysis.

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Speaker 1: There have been some great questions sent to us, so

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Speaker 1: I'm just going to start with the first one.

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Speaker 2: Okay, cool. I want to predicate this though, So this

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Speaker 2: is actually something that's been on the front burner for

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Speaker 2: me because I was fascinated at Crime Con Like how

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Speaker 2: many people that came in. Obviously that's a select audience, right,

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Speaker 2: but they really follow show, and they follow they might

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Speaker 2: have more knowledge about death death investigation in certain cases

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Speaker 2: than let's say the average person. But what I think

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Speaker 2: is a double edged sword, if you will, is if

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Speaker 2: you're learning only from TV, whether you know, we'd be

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Speaker 2: a documentary because everybody has their own even a documentary

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Speaker 2: has a perspective correct and there's not always uh the

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Speaker 2: director or the people who use you know, are filming

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Speaker 2: it are not medically oriented. Usually they may have a pathologist,

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Speaker 2: but everything has I would say, a point of view.

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Speaker 2: Now it's not unbiased like just the just an autopsy finding.

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Speaker 2: So I thought like, wow, these people would have to

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Speaker 2: you know, they can be helpful. Right in the cold

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Speaker 2: case searches of the missing loved ones that were posted.

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Speaker 2: I mean they're they're doing internet deep dives. But at

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Speaker 2: the same time, if you really careful who might come

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Speaker 2: up in the search and whether that's a valid accusation involvement,

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Speaker 2: you know, you'd be really careful with what you think

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Speaker 2: based on certain findings. And so that's you know, the

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Speaker 2: CSI effect or you know, the effect of the media

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Speaker 2: on crime and investigation. I think was really at the

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Speaker 2: forefront of my mind because I'm like, oh, we got

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Speaker 2: to not overstep you know, the medical point of view

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Speaker 2: of it or the scientific point of view. You don't

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Speaker 2: want to create something out of nothing.

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Speaker 1: I think that's the best advice you could give, because

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Speaker 1: you know, again, if you're getting it from TV, it

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Speaker 1: may or may not be accurate. It may you know,

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Speaker 1: do some harm if you're putting bad information out. So

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Speaker 1: here's the first question that I got over and over

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Speaker 1: and over. Can you always determine the cause of death

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Speaker 1: and the time of death?

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Speaker 2: So I find these questions fascinating, and it's great that

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Speaker 2: people want to be educated. No, and so I wish

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Speaker 2: my life and your life was as black and white

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Speaker 2: as law and order and everything's completed in an hour,

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Speaker 2: you know, or whatever show C s I, you know,

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Speaker 2: pick one, right. But the issue is we have these

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Speaker 2: you know, cause of death can be anything. Manner and death.

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Speaker 2: We have the five manners, including undetermined. Okay, and really,

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Speaker 2: if you think about it, if we could pigeonhole everything

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Speaker 2: into the other manners and not need undetermined, that would

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Speaker 2: be ideal, right, But there's always that gray area. You know,

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Speaker 2: the cause and manner of death is a medical opinion

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Speaker 2: of the pathologist. Uh, sometimes I agree with them when

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Speaker 2: I review, you know, secondary review of cases. You know,

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Speaker 2: when I'm asked as the expert on by a lawyer

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Speaker 2: or family, and sometimes I don't right, I might have

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Speaker 2: a different interpretation because I'm looking at I have more

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Speaker 2: information now than they did at the beginning. It may

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Speaker 2: be just that my training and experience and my the

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Speaker 2: way I interpret things are slightly different. You know, in

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Speaker 2: any case, the there's multiple variables that go in. But no,

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Speaker 2: I've definitely certified cases as undetermined undetermined, you know, whether

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Speaker 2: it's a skeletal remain that doesn't have any clear trauma.

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Speaker 2: But if you're missing most of the body and the organs,

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Speaker 2: I can't tell you much, right, I can't be one

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Speaker 2: hundred percent certain it wasn't something else. So when I

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Speaker 2: have just a bag of bones, that's how we do it.

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Speaker 2: You know, if it's severe decomposition where things are missing

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Speaker 2: and it's not evident and toxicology can't necessarily be optimized.

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Speaker 2: You know, there's so many factors that we have to

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Speaker 2: think about. And remember, I treat the body as a

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Speaker 2: system as a whole, right, So I can't look at

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Speaker 2: just the liver without looking at the heart and the

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Speaker 2: brain and everything else. Right, So giving me half a

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Speaker 2: body or a decomposed body. Is it's valid to examine

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Speaker 2: that and gather what you can, But obviously knowing your

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Speaker 2: limitations is also important, and not to overpromise or overstep

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Speaker 2: what can be proven with the autopsy or additional testing.

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Speaker 1: Gotcha, next question, family members can refuse an autopsy.

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Speaker 2: So let's define autopsy because I think you need to

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Speaker 2: understand like under which conditions autopsies happen, and then we

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Speaker 2: can get into the family involvement. Okay, So obviously we

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Speaker 2: live in a complicated society, many beliefs, many backgrounds, and

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Speaker 2: we try to you know, the law supports the medical

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Speaker 2: examiner being around and operating in context of still respecting

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Speaker 2: you know, values, especially religious values. So when I talk

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Speaker 2: about a medical examiner or corner system, that is a

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Speaker 2: legal system where someone dies of unexplained means, sudden unexpected death,

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Speaker 2: their death needs to be investstigated and the laws surrounding

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Speaker 2: that depending on the county, the state, the district operates,

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Speaker 2: the corner operates, and the medical examiner operates to do

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Speaker 2: the autopsy that does not require family permission. So the

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Speaker 2: only real time that can be denied or the family

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Speaker 2: can request it not to be done is under religious exception.

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Speaker 2: So certain religions, certain religious beliefs, they don't want autopsies performed.

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Speaker 2: And after discussion with the family, we usually do explain that,

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Speaker 2: you know, this can even limit what we can determine,

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Speaker 2: and they might have to sign off on that. But

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Speaker 2: that's okay, and I have signed off. Going back to

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Speaker 2: the first question, you know, cause of death cannot be

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Speaker 2: determined due to refusal of autopsy, but.

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Speaker 1: If law enforcement needs it for a homicide investigation, that

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Speaker 1: trump's religious beliefs.

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Speaker 2: Oh, that's a very difficult one. We may need a

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Speaker 2: court order.

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Speaker 1: Okay, here's your answer.

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Speaker 2: That's usually yeah, usually we have to push for it.

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Speaker 2: I start freaking out because I want to do the autopsy,

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Speaker 2: and because the families also, you know, they're in shock

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Speaker 2: the religious beliefs, you know, over arch and help them,

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Speaker 2: you know, in a time of need, right, But they

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Speaker 2: don't see down the road. They don't know down the

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Speaker 2: road what the implications of not getting an autopsy are.

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Speaker 2: And I'm thinking, oh my god, if this is suspicious

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Speaker 2: and I don't do my full job, this is my

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Speaker 2: one shot deal. So it's sort of hard to communicate that, like,

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Speaker 2: please put your religious beliefs aside, trust me, right, you

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Speaker 2: know who is I'm not of Jewish faith, I'm not

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Speaker 2: of Muslim faith. Like those are the ones that usually

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Speaker 2: have had the most I've had the most experience with

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Speaker 2: with having religious objections. So that's why I was pointing

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Speaker 2: that out. And yeah, we might need a court order.

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Speaker 2: I've even done autopsies with a rabbi in the room,

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Speaker 2: So we make a lot of accommodations. Do you understand,

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Speaker 2: like the family rabbi will come stand there. We won't

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Speaker 2: retain specimens other than toxicology. We will put every blood

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Speaker 2: stained scalpel, tissue like you know, towel anything that we

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Speaker 2: use back in the bag so the body can be

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Speaker 2: buried whole. Do you understand, Like every drop of blood,

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Speaker 2: every fluid, we do everything we can to catch the

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Speaker 2: fluid and not but still get the information. It just

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Speaker 2: it really is a collegial process, you know, trying to

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Speaker 2: work with the family, help them understand and then go

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Speaker 2: from there. And the opposite side is what I would

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Speaker 2: call a medical or non forensic autopsy or private autopsy,

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Speaker 2: which I do do. So I actually have two people

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Speaker 2: waiting for me this week for a private autopsy. The

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Speaker 2: families have reached out to me. I never solicit, but

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Speaker 2: they I treat this because it's not a medical examiner's

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Speaker 2: office that I'm doing it under its private I have forms,

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Speaker 2: legal forms that they have to give me written permission,

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Speaker 2: so they can say I only want you to look

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Speaker 2: at the brain, I only want you to look at

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Speaker 2: the heart, or I want you to look at the

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Speaker 2: whole body, et cetera. You know, we go through quite

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Speaker 2: a detailed discussion back and forth before that's established, and

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Speaker 2: then I go forward and I don't do anything that's

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Speaker 2: not permitted, and sometimes it was interesting. It's like an

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Speaker 2: evolving process. I remember one case, I think they wanted

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Speaker 2: me to look at the heart only okay, And then

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Speaker 2: I was like, I called the wife. I said, the

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Speaker 2: heart's questionable. It's not a slam dunk like cause of death,

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Speaker 2: and I don't want you to wonder. I said, would

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Speaker 2: you be okay with giving me permission to also look

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Speaker 2: at the brain? You know, I said, it's not what

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Speaker 2: we I sort of used my findings because I had

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Speaker 2: to make a sort of in process decision. I called

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Speaker 2: her and she was like, yes, that's okay. I said,

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Speaker 2: I just want to make sure there wasn't a stroke

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Speaker 2: or something else, like he hit his head, you know,

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Speaker 2: because I just want to make sure we rule out

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Speaker 2: the big things that you're concerned about. And it's a

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Speaker 2: tailored process. And that's why working with the family, like

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Speaker 2: I'm very open to discussion and open a discussion like

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Speaker 2: this is where I provide the guidance. And oftentimes I say,

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Speaker 2: you know, you want to hire me and you want

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Speaker 2: to pay me money, but I don't feel comfortable doing

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Speaker 2: an autopsy because I think we're not going to gain

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Speaker 2: new information.

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Speaker 1: I know the way you operate and everything is a map,

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Speaker 1: and you do treat it like a system. So if

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Speaker 1: you opened somebody up to only look at the heart,

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Speaker 1: but you just happen on your way to the heart

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Speaker 1: to see something with the lung, you couldn't ignore that.

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Speaker 2: Nope, and I would stop. I actually stopped in the

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Speaker 2: middle of that private autopsy and called the wife. You know.

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Speaker 2: I said, she's the legal next of kin, that's who

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Speaker 2: signed the permission slip, and I said, look, and I

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Speaker 2: amended the you know, like I documented the conversation saying, okay,

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Speaker 2: it's not heart only now it's heart and brain. But

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Speaker 2: you know, based on our conversation at I don't know, six

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Speaker 2: o'clock in the evening or something, but you know, I

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Speaker 2: wanted her to be okay with it. But my job

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Speaker 2: is to also provide closure and give an answer. So

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Speaker 2: how would I do that if I didn't think like

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Speaker 2: the pertinent things were looked at? You know.

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Speaker 1: Well that kind of goes into the next question, and

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Speaker 1: that is, can any family member request an autopsy?

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Speaker 2: So that's tricky. I think yes, Like usually when a

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Speaker 2: family calls me, and I'm talking more on the private side,

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Speaker 2: so I think in the medical examiner side, if there

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Speaker 2: is a concern by anybody known to the person the decedent,

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Speaker 2: it's usually like they need to follow a police report, right,

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Speaker 2: and the police will then relay that information to us

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Speaker 2: because in an official capacity, and that may drive the

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Speaker 2: autopsy being done. You know, the body wasn't coming into

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Speaker 2: the medical but now we need to investigate this death

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Speaker 2: because so and so said xyz. It doesn't have to

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Speaker 2: be a relative, do you follow, but the person should

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Speaker 2: know the decedent. It can't just be some stranger saying

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Speaker 2: I want mister Smith to have an autopsy. There has

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Speaker 2: to be some you know, questions, some concern that needs

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Speaker 2: to be looked at in the flip side, when we're

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Speaker 2: talking about a private autopsy outside of the Emmy or

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Speaker 2: coroner system. I do need the legal next of kin,

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Speaker 2: so it could be the spouse, the parent, the brother, sister,

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Speaker 2: those are the usual ones. Unless you have a power

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Speaker 2: of attorney, they would need to sign the paperwork. Now

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Speaker 2: if they talk to cousin Jim, and Cousin Jim's like, well,

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Speaker 2: I know David was I don't know doing drugs or

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Speaker 2: I don't know doing something right, like not drugs, but

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Speaker 2: complaining about his chest pain when we were going for

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Speaker 2: a walk. And the wife didn't know that, right because

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Speaker 2: men don't tell us anything, at least my David doesn't.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: That may be a new piece of information. So cousin

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Speaker 2: Jim calls the wife and says, hey, but honestly, I

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Speaker 2: need the wife, the legal next of kin and this

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Speaker 2: hypothetical to sign the form. So Cousin Jim couldn't just

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Speaker 2: request it. Do you follow? He doesn't have the legal authority,

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Speaker 2: but they can chime in, and oftentimes it's a multi

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Speaker 2: person you know, when I have siblings and a spouse

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Speaker 2: and a grandparent left like it may be multi level discussions.

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Speaker 2: They talk as a group and get back to me.

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Speaker 1: Crazy, So some people believe. And one of the questions says,

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Speaker 1: isn't it true that if you have an autopsy you

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Speaker 1: can't have an open casket.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, No, that's the beauty of the autopsy.

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Speaker 2: I actually, every time I counsel family on a private autopsy,

348
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Speaker 2: that's probably one of the first things I said. And

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Speaker 2: it's funny you say that, because I'm going to put

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Speaker 2: together a frequently Asked Questions document on my website, maybe

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Speaker 2: based on this conversation, because I get asked these questions

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Speaker 2: so much that we do it. Okay, let's back up.

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Speaker 2: If a body is decomposed, the funeral home is not

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Speaker 2: going to prepare it for open casket, right, that's not appropriate,

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Speaker 2: assuming the decedents bodies and you know, normal work, normal

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Speaker 2: recognizable condition. The way we make our cuts are very hidden,

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Speaker 2: very subtle, very precise. Okay, So it is like a surgery,

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Speaker 2: and then we sew up the body and the funeral

359
00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:04,200
Speaker 2: home also takes I mean, they do remarkable work. And

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Speaker 2: I'm telling you, like sometimes I've seen cases I've done

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Speaker 2: because I've had to revisit the body in the funeral home,

362
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Speaker 2: and I'm like, wow, she looks really good, like really healthy,

363
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Speaker 2: doesn't look you know, whether injuries are sewn up, makeup

364
00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:22,040
Speaker 2: is put on. Like. They do a lot of beautiful

365
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Speaker 2: work for the people they care for. So to me, no,

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Speaker 2: they're you know, nothing is done in areas that we

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Speaker 2: can see. Now that being said, if someone has an

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Speaker 2: injury to the right side of the head, you know,

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Speaker 2: I might have to shave the hair when doing the autopsy.

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Speaker 2: Maybe I save the hair so it can be glued

371
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Speaker 2: back on, or you know, maybe they can put a

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Speaker 2: scarf around the head or a hat. You know, maybe

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Speaker 2: the pillow can be styled in a way that will

374
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Speaker 2: cushion the head more. You know. I mean there's again

375
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Speaker 2: this is getting into nuances. But just a general autopsy

376
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Speaker 2: does not preclude open casket that we aim for that

377
00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:05,280
Speaker 2: you know, we're very careful and we aim to it

378
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Speaker 2: might operationally add a day or two until you can

379
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Speaker 2: have services, but no way does it interfere with the service.

380
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Speaker 1: All right, last question, isn't it true in some small

381
00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:23,479
Speaker 1: towns they use newspaper or saw dust to fill in

382
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Speaker 1: cavities in the body.

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Speaker 2: So I have never seen newspaper, okay, and I've so

384
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Speaker 2: my experience is very limited, and it would be only

385
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Speaker 2: with embalmed bodies, okay, so bodies that have been prepared

386
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Speaker 2: for funeral and then I do the autopsy, okay, So

387
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Speaker 2: that is a very limited number of cases compared to

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Speaker 2: the decedent who just died, right, and then I autopsy

389
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Speaker 2: and then they go to the funeral home and then

390
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Speaker 2: they have a funeral. So when we mix up those steps,

391
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Speaker 2: that's when I might see how the body was prepared.

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Speaker 2: I have seen sawdust, not so much in the cavities

393
00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:06,600
Speaker 2: but maybe under the body. But usually what I see

394
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Speaker 2: in embalmbed bodies like there's usually gel or I mean

395
00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:17,200
Speaker 2: there's fancy embalming methods, you know that really allow the

396
00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:21,879
Speaker 2: chemical into the body, into the blood vessels to really

397
00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:27,719
Speaker 2: soak through without leaking. So there may be some addition

398
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Speaker 2: of sawdust to help keep the body dry, but it

399
00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:35,919
Speaker 2: wouldn't be the predominant component. And I have never seen newspaper.

400
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Speaker 2: I mean, I can't speak. Remember, this is just just me,

401
00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:42,239
Speaker 2: you know. And I haven't practiced in very many small areas, right,

402
00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:45,040
Speaker 2: I'm trained in big cities, and I practice for the state,

403
00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:48,159
Speaker 2: and I've worked in other big cities, so I have

404
00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:52,520
Speaker 2: I can't say, you know, in small town West Texas

405
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Speaker 2: what they're doing. I have no idea, you know, I

406
00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:58,639
Speaker 2: don't know about newspaper even how absorbent it would be.

407
00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:03,720
Speaker 2: But you know, sawdust is a natural material, right. Usually

408
00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:08,280
Speaker 2: when it's sawdust's it is really light and fluffy. You know,

409
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Speaker 2: it's not dirty wood or anything that I've seen.

410
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Speaker 1: Doctor Pria, I learned something every single time I talk

411
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Speaker 1: to you. But you just said something, and I want

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Speaker 1: to be yeah, I guess super clear that I understand

413
00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:26,760
Speaker 1: what you just said. Are you saying that you can

414
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Speaker 1: do an autopsy after somebody's been embalmed.

415
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Speaker 2: It's less than ideal, and I'll tell you why. So

416
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Speaker 2: the way embombing works, right, is the funeral director the

417
00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:40,760
Speaker 2: embalmber cut like we'll cut into the blood vessels, so

418
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:44,120
Speaker 2: those big blood vessels in the neck, the carotid arteries,

419
00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:47,080
Speaker 2: and then they will poke into the belly and then

420
00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:50,359
Speaker 2: the growing vessels and they'll use a pump to put

421
00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:54,280
Speaker 2: formaldehyde through those vessels, and that's how the organs get

422
00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:59,800
Speaker 2: chemically cured. They'll also use a poker like this they

423
00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:02,440
Speaker 2: call a probe that has a channel through it where

424
00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:07,400
Speaker 2: the formaldehyde can be inserted into organs, and I ask them,

425
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:10,160
Speaker 2: if I know that there's going to be an autopsy

426
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:13,639
Speaker 2: post embombing, to please be gentle with the trocar this

427
00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:18,320
Speaker 2: probe so there's less holes made in the body, if

428
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:22,320
Speaker 2: you will. Okay, But yes, absolutely, I think one of

429
00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:25,639
Speaker 2: the two decedents this week that I am autopsying in

430
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:28,560
Speaker 2: the next few days is embalmed because of my travels

431
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:30,439
Speaker 2: and the time of death and other issues with the

432
00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:34,000
Speaker 2: family deciding. I just said, hey, you know, the one

433
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:37,800
Speaker 2: thing that is limited is a toxicology, okay, right, because

434
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:40,960
Speaker 2: the blood and urine and all that has been pumped out, right,

435
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:43,760
Speaker 2: So I cautioned the family, but this would be a

436
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:47,000
Speaker 2: second autopsy that I'm doing such that toxicology has already

437
00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:51,120
Speaker 2: been performed, and so then that becomes you know, null

438
00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:54,600
Speaker 2: and void consideration, and then we can just keep going. So, yeah,

439
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:57,440
Speaker 2: there's no issue with that. The toxicology is what gets

440
00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:00,280
Speaker 2: very tricky. You know, we want a good specimen, get

441
00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:02,360
Speaker 2: good talks, right, and so I'm not you know, once

442
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,640
Speaker 2: you have the alcohol and the pumping and the mixing

443
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:09,320
Speaker 2: of blood with these chemicals, things are shifting around and

444
00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:10,880
Speaker 2: the measurements are less accurate.

445
00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:16,720
Speaker 1: I've only known the process of somebody is murdered, they

446
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:19,720
Speaker 1: have an autopsy, and they're embalmed, they go to the

447
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:23,520
Speaker 1: funeral home. I just never heard that, and when you

448
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:26,399
Speaker 1: said it, I was like, wait a minute. So again,

449
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:29,840
Speaker 1: thank you so much for clearing that up and teaching

450
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:30,600
Speaker 1: us once again.

451
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:33,840
Speaker 2: And I want to shout out to the you know,

452
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:38,160
Speaker 2: funeral directors, because sometimes what happens is maybe the person

453
00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:43,560
Speaker 2: died without us being called, us being the emmy or

454
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:47,280
Speaker 2: you know, some sort of autopsy process okay, and then

455
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:49,920
Speaker 2: the funeral director gets the body like oh man, there's

456
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:52,720
Speaker 2: a bump on the head or there's this weird bruise

457
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:54,880
Speaker 2: like that doesn't sit well with the end. They don't

458
00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:57,920
Speaker 2: want to like miss something, so they'll call. And it's

459
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:03,000
Speaker 2: sometimes having someone else like because you know, it sort

460
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:05,880
Speaker 2: of starts trips up the process. It goes, oh, hey,

461
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:08,680
Speaker 2: this is not normal, you know, but we've never laid

462
00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:11,320
Speaker 2: eyes on the body. If the emmy's not called, does

463
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:13,480
Speaker 2: that make sense? If it goes straight from the home

464
00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:17,040
Speaker 2: hospital whatever, and they might be like, oh, you know,

465
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:19,640
Speaker 2: this old elderly lady has a bump on the head

466
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:23,080
Speaker 2: that the hospital totally like didn't report to us, and

467
00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:25,639
Speaker 2: that's why the EMMY wasn't called there, you know, And

468
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:27,679
Speaker 2: now on the funeral director may be like, look, what

469
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:29,199
Speaker 2: do you want to do about this? And you know,

470
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:32,199
Speaker 2: and that's just an example, but right, you know, we

471
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:37,199
Speaker 2: have other people in the chain that are responsible. And

472
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:41,280
Speaker 2: the other really good thing like is like Massachusetts does it.

473
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:46,000
Speaker 2: They have examiners that go to the body and look

474
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 2: at the body. I'm just speaking from experience because I've

475
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:53,000
Speaker 2: signed their cremation certificates and they have an investigator look,

476
00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:55,800
Speaker 2: look the body ONTs over to make sure there's no

477
00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:59,120
Speaker 2: unexplained injuries. And that's special to Massachusetts as far as

478
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:01,639
Speaker 2: I know. That's not done Rhode Island. But we also

479
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:04,920
Speaker 2: sometimes investigate before the body's cremated, because once it's gone,

480
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:07,440
Speaker 2: it's gone, right, you don't want to miss something. So

481
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:10,919
Speaker 2: everybody has sort of a double check in place, especially

482
00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:15,240
Speaker 2: for cremations, to investigate further, to get medical records pulled

483
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:18,160
Speaker 2: the body if you needed, or visit the body, et cetera.

484
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:22,639
Speaker 1: So yeah, outstanding, Well, ma'am, I appreciate it again.

485
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:27,120
Speaker 2: Welcome home, Thank you, I'm going to you soon we'll

486
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:30,359
Speaker 2: have a we'll have a meeting in person and Linke Tobias.

487
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:33,000
Speaker 1: So that I cannot wait for that.

488
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:35,560
Speaker 2: My next next in two weeks, i'll be a week

489
00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:37,800
Speaker 2: and a half I'll be heading out. So yeah, it'll

490
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:38,360
Speaker 2: be awesome.

491
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:41,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're gonna have a tremendous time. And Scott Duffy,

492
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:47,879
Speaker 1: former SAC with the FBI, Sergeant Joe Jackloane from NYPD,

493
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:53,080
Speaker 1: retired homicide ooh honey, it's gonna be a good time yep.

494
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:56,200
Speaker 2: So and animals are involved, so I'm always gonna be happy.

495
00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was an easy sale with you. That was

496
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 1: that really was Yeah, all right, Doc, I appreciate you.

497
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:10,240
Speaker 2: All right, good night, m