1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,519 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from how Supports 2 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:14,600 Speaker 1: dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Carolina, 3 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:18,439 Speaker 1: I'm person. We're continuing boog Week this week with Free 4 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:20,640 Speaker 1: the Nipple. We're looking at the Free the Nipple movement. 5 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:23,200 Speaker 1: It's also a movie, it's a hashtag. It's really like 6 00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 1: a multi media experience, including the ones on your chest. 7 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:29,920 Speaker 1: You have them too, I have nipples. Yeah, Yeah, it 8 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:33,200 Speaker 1: turns out that we all do and that they are 9 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 1: currently your nipples are swept up in a political movement 10 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:41,240 Speaker 1: known as Free the Nipple. And this is we're jumping off, 11 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:47,159 Speaker 1: of course, from Monday's episode on toplessness and the legalities 12 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:50,280 Speaker 1: and the rules and regulations in our country sort of 13 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:52,920 Speaker 1: around the world too, when it comes to women bearing 14 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:57,480 Speaker 1: their breasts and the implications of that. Yeah, because, as 15 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:00,840 Speaker 1: we talked about more in depth in our episode why 16 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:06,280 Speaker 1: Can't Women Go topless? Breast did have a big moment 17 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 1: in Western fashion because, especially in the mid to late 18 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:19,400 Speaker 1: seventeenth century and eighteenth century, very low cut dresses were 19 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:22,840 Speaker 1: in vogue for women. Um some might even let a 20 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:25,760 Speaker 1: little bit of their nips slip, and because of that, 21 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 1: nipple rouge was a thing and it did not signify 22 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:33,760 Speaker 1: that you were some kind of prostitute, but rather you 23 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:37,200 Speaker 1: were a high class woman. Well yeah, but I mean 24 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 1: it was part of pop culture, and just the way 25 00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:41,839 Speaker 1: that pop culture trickles down today, it was the same 26 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:45,200 Speaker 1: thing all the way back then. Yes, you had queens 27 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 1: and ladies at court wearing these incredibly low cut dresses, 28 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 1: but you also had prostitute sporting the fashion. And just 29 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 1: because it didn't necessarily symbolize sexiness, and of course, I 30 00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 1: mean exposed your nipple didn't necessarily indicate sexiness or sexuality, 31 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:07,400 Speaker 1: it doesn't mean they weren't part of the sex cells ethos. 32 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:09,320 Speaker 1: And I thought this was really interesting. I've never read 33 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:12,600 Speaker 1: about this before, that there were woodcut images of women 34 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 1: with bare breasts that appeared on ballad sheets to illustrate 35 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 1: the text as a selling point. So even though nipples, yeah, 36 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:21,800 Speaker 1: they weren't a big deal, it was like maybe if 37 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:23,920 Speaker 1: you were wore a miniskirt. Now it's not like a 38 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:27,520 Speaker 1: huge deal, but they were still considered attractive enough to 39 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 1: be part of a sales pitch when trying to sell 40 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:35,040 Speaker 1: these ballad sheets. So in this era, exposed nipples could 41 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 1: suggest high class uh prostitution. Chastity, sexiness, maternity, and love. Yeah, 42 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:47,480 Speaker 1: that makes that's it's so clear cut, it's so clear cut. Yeah, 43 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 1: I'm really glad we're having this easy, breezy conversation. But yeah, 44 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:53,520 Speaker 1: I mean, if you look at art from from back 45 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:55,520 Speaker 1: in that era, I mean, a woman could have her 46 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:59,079 Speaker 1: breast exposed to symbolize here, she's a mother, she's taking 47 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:01,959 Speaker 1: care of these children, but it could also be provocative 48 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:04,519 Speaker 1: and sexy too, just oh my god, just the same 49 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:07,720 Speaker 1: way that women are complicated beings in real life. So 50 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:11,760 Speaker 1: if we fast forward quite a bit from the eighteenth 51 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:16,880 Speaker 1: century to today, there's a lot of conversation and protests 52 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:21,799 Speaker 1: and activism and social media ing going on around female 53 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:25,359 Speaker 1: nipples in particular, and it runs the gamut from people 54 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:30,400 Speaker 1: like the radical feminist group found it in Ukraine called Femine, 55 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:37,240 Speaker 1: which uses topless protesting to call out not only the 56 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:39,800 Speaker 1: idea of the male gays, but more specifically to try 57 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 1: to confront and take down repressive regimes and religion. But 58 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 1: then you also have the less intrusive in a way 59 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 1: they're they're certainly not running up and trying to attack 60 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:55,840 Speaker 1: the pope like Femine. You have hashtag free the nipple, 61 00:03:55,920 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 1: which is a viral social media hashtag which is calling 62 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:09,280 Speaker 1: for female nipples specifically and brass to be normalized. Yeah, 63 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's great. We talked a lot 64 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:14,600 Speaker 1: about normalizing the female body, specifically the female breasts in 65 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 1: our episode on toplessness, and I don't think that's off 66 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 1: the mark. I think that's a good idea. But there 67 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:26,080 Speaker 1: is something about how very social media cool girl viral 68 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:29,400 Speaker 1: this free the Nipple movement is that has lent itself, 69 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:32,960 Speaker 1: I think, to being criticized by all of the think 70 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:36,960 Speaker 1: piece writers out there, especially when a lot of the 71 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:41,720 Speaker 1: proponents of it are celebrities. It reminds me, Caroline of 72 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:45,159 Speaker 1: the Period Pride podcast, where a lot of that is 73 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:50,360 Speaker 1: social media driven, of um intentionally posting photos on Instagram 74 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 1: suggesting or outright showing menstrual blood, only to have it 75 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 1: taken down and then start a conversation that way. It's 76 00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:01,640 Speaker 1: the same thing, only instead of used champons, we have 77 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:07,720 Speaker 1: unused nipples. Unused nipples. I mean, it's not like we're 78 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:12,320 Speaker 1: not used to seeing nipples to a certain degree. I 79 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:17,440 Speaker 1: mean we're certainly okay with them in in fashion, for instance. 80 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:20,799 Speaker 1: I mean, it's not uncommon to open a fashion magazine 81 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:25,839 Speaker 1: and see both editorial content and ads featuring women's boobs. 82 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:28,280 Speaker 1: But it's almost the same attitude. It made me think 83 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 1: of how in our Toplessness episode we talked about how 84 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:35,040 Speaker 1: it's okay for men to go into a strip club 85 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:41,479 Speaker 1: willingly or women know and pay to see topless women. Like, 86 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 1: that's okay legally, where everyone's comfortable with that, But the 87 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 1: minute that woman walks outside and her boobs are out 88 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:50,760 Speaker 1: on the street, yea she and she leaves to go 89 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:53,359 Speaker 1: take a smoke break. It just doesn't put on a shirt. 90 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:55,680 Speaker 1: But I like how boobs out on the street makes 91 00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:57,719 Speaker 1: me think, like her boobs and their high heels just 92 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:01,440 Speaker 1: like walking along the booth, need a break, I got 93 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:03,479 Speaker 1: to get some air. But it's kind of the same 94 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 1: concept almost that like, and we're so accustomed to seeing 95 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:11,240 Speaker 1: that in high fashion. We're so accustomed to seeing nipples 96 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 1: being out all aggressive and out there rouged, even in 97 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:19,000 Speaker 1: our fashion magazines. But it's that's where we expect to 98 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 1: see them. We don't expect to see nipples necessarily outside 99 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:26,479 Speaker 1: in the real world or on social media. So we 100 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 1: see it in the high culture and the low culture. 101 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:35,640 Speaker 1: But what about in between. Well, because of celebrity culture, 102 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:40,280 Speaker 1: we have been seeing them more on red carpets. I mean, 103 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:44,120 Speaker 1: Rihanna really in terms of celebrities, Rihanna has I mean 104 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 1: freed her nipples. I mean, she's kind of led the 105 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:50,040 Speaker 1: charge in terms of freeing the nipple because she just 106 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 1: doesn't care and kind of an amazing way. Um. She 107 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:56,680 Speaker 1: used to actually post pretty niptastic photos on Instagram all 108 00:06:56,680 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 1: the time until Instagram removed so many of her photos. 109 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:02,560 Speaker 1: She was finally like, well, screw you, Instagram, I'm gonna 110 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:08,719 Speaker 1: be leave. And then famously in she arrived at the 111 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 1: cfd A Awards and accustom made Adam Salman gown that 112 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 1: showed everything. It was basically like, uh, a crystal chain 113 00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 1: mail dress. It was just like a gem encrusted mesh 114 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 1: dress and she she was wearing like a flesh toned 115 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 1: g string, but she had her nipples out and Vogue 116 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:34,000 Speaker 1: was like, oh wow, you know, or have nipples completely 117 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:36,120 Speaker 1: lost their shock value? We weren't even looking at them. 118 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 1: We swear we were looking at the dress and the 119 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:40,360 Speaker 1: dress was amazing. I mean it's true. If you do 120 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 1: look at images of her in that bedazzled dress, there's 121 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 1: so much going on in the detailing of the dress 122 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 1: that once you get to her ariel and you're like, oh, snipples, Okay, 123 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 1: now let's look more of these gems. Yeah, exactly, there's 124 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:59,080 Speaker 1: something shiny. It's so distracting and over the fashion spot. 125 00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 1: Also in June, the writer points out that fall fashion 126 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 1: shows saw a quote actual nipple trend and that all 127 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:18,360 Speaker 1: of the sheer tops led to a nipple extravagance, nipple extravaganza. Um. 128 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 1: She She says that Kendall Jenner, of all people, normalized 129 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 1: the nip extravaganza. She says that when Kendall made her 130 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:31,240 Speaker 1: now infamous breast revealing New York Fashion Week debut on 131 00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 1: the catwalk at Mark Jacobs Runway, boobs were here to stay. 132 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:39,440 Speaker 1: But we we gotta give a quick throwback though to 133 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:44,839 Speaker 1: the nineteen four Mono Kenny. I mean really Rudy Gernreich, 134 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:48,080 Speaker 1: who designed the monno Keny and also the thong um 135 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:49,960 Speaker 1: and you can learn more about that and the stuff 136 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:52,880 Speaker 1: I never told you video or thongs. Anti feminists um 137 00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:56,440 Speaker 1: tried to make the Mono Keny happen because of a 138 00:08:56,559 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 1: very similar free the nipple etho, saying lady split your 139 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:04,720 Speaker 1: free form flow here there. It's basically a brief with 140 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 1: tiny suspenders to to hold it up. Um, but the 141 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:14,920 Speaker 1: suspenders go between your boobs. And he was raised in 142 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 1: more of a German nudist culture, so you can imagine 143 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:22,320 Speaker 1: it did not go well in the United States. But 144 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:24,079 Speaker 1: I was also fascinated to learn a mid all this 145 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:28,079 Speaker 1: research speaking of Germany, that it's the East Germans who 146 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 1: were all like nudity, it's cool, it's Wednesday, let's get naked, 147 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:34,960 Speaker 1: take off your top. And it's the West Germans who 148 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:37,560 Speaker 1: are who are a little more scandalized by it. But 149 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:41,440 Speaker 1: I can only imagine that Americans are even more scandalized 150 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:45,559 Speaker 1: than any Germans by this. I mean we, oh yeah, 151 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:51,079 Speaker 1: Americans are amazing fruits when it comes to some exposed nipple. 152 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 1: Oh yeah. We we believe that our entire community and 153 00:09:56,440 --> 00:09:59,960 Speaker 1: our community standards will somehow crumble if a woman's nipp 154 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 1: look at us, if they are pointed in our general direction, 155 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:08,120 Speaker 1: what do they wink at you? Yeah? I know that's terrifying. Um, 156 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 1: that is terrifying if if a nipple were to wink 157 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:12,360 Speaker 1: at you. But hey, in the last episode we talked 158 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:15,080 Speaker 1: about them screaming. So you know, we're just on a 159 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 1: role hysterical nipples, like all of all stuff I've never 160 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:24,400 Speaker 1: told you in in one piece of anatomy. Um. So 161 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:28,119 Speaker 1: there is Free the Nipple, though, is not only a hashtag, 162 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:32,559 Speaker 1: but it's also a movement, Caroline. It is a movement, 163 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:35,400 Speaker 1: and it's not a movement of anthropomorphize boobs and high 164 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:40,080 Speaker 1: heels and down the street. Um yeah. Actress Lena Esco 165 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 1: actually launched the hashtag free the Nipple movement a couple 166 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:47,000 Speaker 1: of years ago, um, which she says is meant to 167 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 1: be playful but controversial. She says, there's no way the 168 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:52,840 Speaker 1: wheels would be turning unless something was going to spark it, 169 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 1: something controversial, and that was Free the Nipples. So it 170 00:10:56,520 --> 00:11:00,559 Speaker 1: starts with a movie. She back in twenty ten, got 171 00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:03,560 Speaker 1: the idea for a Free the Nipple movie, got financing 172 00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:07,439 Speaker 1: in and she wrote, directed, produced, and start in the film, 173 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:10,240 Speaker 1: which is a political comedy, not a documentary as I 174 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:14,600 Speaker 1: initially thought, which came out in December. And it seems 175 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 1: like it's around this time that like the whole free 176 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:21,160 Speaker 1: the Nipple thing really explodes. Yeah, because I've been the 177 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:27,320 Speaker 1: most exposed to free the nipple on social media as 178 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:33,200 Speaker 1: confronting Instagram's policies regarding breastfeeding or any kind of female 179 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:37,360 Speaker 1: nipple exposure. Facebook, Twitter the same thing, and social media wise, 180 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:41,120 Speaker 1: it does seem like images of breastfeeding paved the way 181 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:46,080 Speaker 1: for this more general call to free the nipple, because 182 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:49,440 Speaker 1: I remember, I mean for a number of years now 183 00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:53,160 Speaker 1: a Facebook and Instagram have since updated their policies. But 184 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:56,000 Speaker 1: when you would have the story go viral about the 185 00:11:56,040 --> 00:11:59,360 Speaker 1: mom who had a really sweet photo taken of her 186 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:03,040 Speaker 1: baby breastfeeding, and she would post it somewhere for everyone 187 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:05,960 Speaker 1: to see in comment and like, and then Instagram or 188 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:09,640 Speaker 1: Facebook would take it off for being inappropriate, and so 189 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:15,360 Speaker 1: that really started a conversation which has since though broadened. Yeah, 190 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:18,480 Speaker 1: I mean, if ESCO's name sounds familiar, it could also 191 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 1: be because in summer, before the movie came out, she 192 00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 1: actually created a p s A called Everybody has Got 193 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 1: to Eat in an effort to normalize breastfeeding in public, 194 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:31,439 Speaker 1: and it was part of an effort to get Facebook 195 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:35,880 Speaker 1: to drop its breastfeeding photo ban. And on the Free 196 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:39,120 Speaker 1: the Nipple website it does mention breastfeeding. They write the 197 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:41,440 Speaker 1: issues where addressing or equal rights for men and women, 198 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:45,320 Speaker 1: a more balanced system of censorship and legal rights for 199 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:48,840 Speaker 1: all women to breastfeed in public. It's the very simple 200 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:53,680 Speaker 1: idea that women should not be shamed for breastfeeding their kids. 201 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:57,960 Speaker 1: And that's certainly nothing new either. I mean, the ability 202 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:01,400 Speaker 1: to breastfeed in public with out censure or even worse 203 00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:04,839 Speaker 1: risk of arrest or fines is something that groups like 204 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 1: l J League, for instance, have been advocating for since 205 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:12,680 Speaker 1: the nineteen fifties, which is wild when you think about 206 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 1: how long nipples in public have been, you know, such 207 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:21,840 Speaker 1: a hot topic. Yeah, and writing about that hot topic 208 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:26,080 Speaker 1: about why breastfeeding might skip some people out. Jamiel Goldenberg 209 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:29,160 Speaker 1: and Tommy and Roberts wrote a chapter in the book 210 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:34,079 Speaker 1: Handbook of Experimental Existential Psychology that for the nipples secrete 211 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:39,640 Speaker 1: milk and our hints reminders of our creaturely mammalian nature. Um, 212 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:43,440 Speaker 1: so it's they're they're basically writing that it creates this 213 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:47,800 Speaker 1: taboo in society that like, we're reminded that women's boobs 214 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:54,200 Speaker 1: aren't just there for men's sexual pleasure. So nipples freak 215 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:58,360 Speaker 1: us out because they're reminders that we're all animals. Is 216 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 1: that what's going on humans are a weird Caroline, so 217 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:02,960 Speaker 1: weird when I want to just go take a nap. 218 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:08,760 Speaker 1: But I mean, it's this, it's this greater conversation about 219 00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 1: women's bodies and women having control over their own bodies 220 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:16,400 Speaker 1: and not being freaking thrown in jail or arrested or 221 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 1: penalized for things like breastfeeding or going topless. That's behind 222 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 1: Esco and other people's push for the movie because the 223 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 1: film's premise, which she says was inspired by true events. 224 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:31,000 Speaker 1: They basically follow a group of young women who take 225 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 1: to the streets of New York City topless to protest 226 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:38,800 Speaker 1: the archaic censorship laws of the United States, and they 227 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:42,040 Speaker 1: say that it explores the contradictions in our media dominated 228 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:45,560 Speaker 1: society where acts of violence and killing or glorified while 229 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 1: images of a woman's body are censored, so trying to 230 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:52,600 Speaker 1: point out that people consider nipples almost to be more 231 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 1: obscene than bloody, gory killing and case in point, During 232 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:01,480 Speaker 1: the filming of Free Then Nipple, New York City police 233 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 1: threatened to shut down production, so instead of getting permits 234 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:08,680 Speaker 1: for the second half of the movie, she shot when 235 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:11,120 Speaker 1: she could, and so when the scene called for a 236 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:15,080 Speaker 1: topless protest, in public. She held an actual topless protest 237 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 1: in public, because female toplessness in public is legal in 238 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 1: New York State, and so the cops cannot rust them. 239 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:25,640 Speaker 1: So this is like an endless chain of art imitating life, 240 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:30,800 Speaker 1: imitating art imitating life. Well, because the police mistakenly thought 241 00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 1: that they were walking around topless to be intentionally prurient, right, 242 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 1: because when people see naked female breast they think sex, right, Well, 243 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:46,680 Speaker 1: unless there's a baby attached to that breast, and then 244 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 1: they think sex. Oh no, wait, that's breastfeeding. Yeah, in 245 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:53,600 Speaker 1: which case you should go hide yourself because you're an animal. Yeah, 246 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 1: because you're uncomfortable because you might still think sex. But 247 00:15:55,960 --> 00:16:00,560 Speaker 1: then you're also like, oh no, maternity, Oh no, what 248 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:03,080 Speaker 1: are we really animals? Right? And then yeah, and then 249 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:05,760 Speaker 1: your your brain explodes. Yeah, But I do think it's 250 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:10,200 Speaker 1: interesting that they are these women are being sort of 251 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:12,840 Speaker 1: hassled by the police in New York, whether their protest 252 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:14,680 Speaker 1: was for the movie or whether it was an actual 253 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 1: protest stage by topless women. Because in a paper that 254 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:21,040 Speaker 1: we talked about a lot in our first episode by 255 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:24,680 Speaker 1: Rena Glazer about sort of the legal issues surrounding women 256 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:28,240 Speaker 1: going topless, Um, there was one particular case where there 257 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:30,800 Speaker 1: were some women in New York who, as part of 258 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:36,240 Speaker 1: a protest of unequal regulations of men's chests versus women's, 259 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 1: they went to this kind of secluded New York City 260 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 1: park almost sort of baiting the police to arrest them 261 00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:44,440 Speaker 1: in any way, to gloss over a whole lot of 262 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 1: legal and judicial wrangling. Uh, the legal stuff dragged on 263 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:51,960 Speaker 1: for years and years, and on one of the appeals, 264 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:55,560 Speaker 1: the court basically said, hey, these women are cool because 265 00:16:56,080 --> 00:17:00,360 Speaker 1: they were protesting. They're not just like aimlessly top lists. 266 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:06,200 Speaker 1: They were using their chests as part of speech almost, 267 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:09,280 Speaker 1: and so they were protected under the First Amendment. And meanwhile, 268 00:17:09,320 --> 00:17:11,240 Speaker 1: the women are tearing their hair out, going, no, we 269 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:15,639 Speaker 1: don't want just women who are protesting while topless to 270 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 1: be protected. We wanted to be okay for any woman 271 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:23,040 Speaker 1: to have her nips out, which is a cause that 272 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:25,960 Speaker 1: celebrities have now taken up, and we're going to talk 273 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:40,159 Speaker 1: about that when we come right back from a quick break. Well, 274 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:44,880 Speaker 1: Kristen mentioned celebrities taking up the mantle of hashtag free 275 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:50,120 Speaker 1: the nipple, and this is another part where Carol gets 276 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:55,400 Speaker 1: irolli because reading about celebrities like Scout and rumor Willis 277 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:59,840 Speaker 1: or even Russell Simmons supporting the free the Nipple movement, 278 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 1: I almost don't trust it because it seems like they're 279 00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:06,720 Speaker 1: not really actually that concerned about those bigger issues of 280 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 1: women being penalized for breastfeeding in public, or women being 281 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 1: penalized unjustly for going topless and states where it's legal. 282 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:18,479 Speaker 1: It almost it's very easy to dismiss celebrity participation in 283 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:20,200 Speaker 1: this because it's like, oh, where are you just met 284 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:25,000 Speaker 1: about Instagram? Yeah, Instagram has been ground zero in a 285 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:29,399 Speaker 1: lot of ways for free the nipple, especially the celebrity 286 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:34,119 Speaker 1: side of this so called movement. Um because you mentioned 287 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:40,800 Speaker 1: Scout Willis, for instance, who in May decided to test 288 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:44,520 Speaker 1: the toplessness laws in New York City is part of 289 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 1: activism and protests, and so she put on a pretty 290 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:50,480 Speaker 1: skirt and nothing else and took a walk down the 291 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:54,919 Speaker 1: street and took a photo of herself doing so and 292 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:59,800 Speaker 1: posted it on Instagram and also Twitter. I believe, basically 293 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:02,040 Speaker 1: so that it would get taken down because once you 294 00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:06,280 Speaker 1: post something on social media and that social media company 295 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:10,280 Speaker 1: removes it because of its you know, decency policy, then 296 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:13,040 Speaker 1: you have a viral story. On your hands, and she 297 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:16,800 Speaker 1: was right. So this whole thing blew up, and she 298 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:19,240 Speaker 1: said at one point, quote matters like the taboo of 299 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:22,960 Speaker 1: the nipple. In the twenty one century, public breastfeeding, slut shaming, 300 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 1: fat shaming, breast cancer and wareness, body positivity, general equality, 301 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:31,840 Speaker 1: and censorship have found their way into mainstream discussion. So 302 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:35,000 Speaker 1: with that quote, though, Caroline, it sounds like Scout does 303 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:37,880 Speaker 1: get it. It sounds like she gets it. But there 304 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 1: are still plenty of women out there who are saying 305 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:43,879 Speaker 1: that putting your boobs out or putting your nips out 306 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:49,160 Speaker 1: is not doing feminism right, I mean, there's plenty of critics. Yeah, yes, 307 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:54,040 Speaker 1: Kristen is rolling her eyes super hard, and I think 308 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:56,399 Speaker 1: it's it is, like I said, it's easy for a 309 00:19:56,400 --> 00:20:00,200 Speaker 1: lot of people to dismiss the actions of celebrities. They 310 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:04,160 Speaker 1: don't trust them to actually be part of the movement. 311 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:06,680 Speaker 1: But but like you said, it does sound like I mean, 312 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:10,880 Speaker 1: it sounds like Scout. I mean, does it feel sometimes 313 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:16,560 Speaker 1: like activism and feminism is being commodified through celebrity culture 314 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:20,840 Speaker 1: in these instances? Yes, I had my oh here we 315 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:25,040 Speaker 1: go again moment with it all when Chelsea Handler, who 316 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:27,880 Speaker 1: I like, please don't send me letters about how great 317 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:30,639 Speaker 1: Chelsea Handler is. I like her, she can be funny 318 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:35,399 Speaker 1: at times. Um. But when she posted her topless photo 319 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:41,480 Speaker 1: of her riding on a horse, very very gallantly on Instagram, 320 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:45,520 Speaker 1: of course immediately got a ton of attention. And she said, 321 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:48,800 Speaker 1: I mean, the whole contrast slash joke was like Putin 322 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 1: read posted an identical photo of himself, and she was like, 323 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:54,440 Speaker 1: well Putin can do this, then why can't I? What's 324 00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:58,880 Speaker 1: wrong with women's bodies? And at that point, to me 325 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:01,720 Speaker 1: being a little bit of a cynic, I suppose it 326 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:05,720 Speaker 1: seemed like a media attention grab. Yeah, but it's also 327 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:09,240 Speaker 1: to the same conversation that comes up with empower tizing, 328 00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:14,359 Speaker 1: of using female empowerment and feminist the slogans to sell 329 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 1: goods as well. I mean, it's the question of, well, 330 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:22,720 Speaker 1: is it such a bad thing that celebrities are hopping 331 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:25,320 Speaker 1: on board, because maybe that signals that this is going 332 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:28,200 Speaker 1: mainstream right to get people talking about it for sure, 333 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:32,720 Speaker 1: And definitely, uh, the topless child of two really famous actors, 334 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:35,800 Speaker 1: I mean, that does get people talking, for sure. And 335 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:38,159 Speaker 1: I am glad that what came out of that was 336 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:40,359 Speaker 1: a quote like, hey guys, We've got all of this 337 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:42,040 Speaker 1: stuff we need to talk about, and now that you're 338 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:44,199 Speaker 1: looking at my boobs, let's hear what I have to 339 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:46,120 Speaker 1: say about it too, So like at least that came 340 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:49,600 Speaker 1: out of it. And model and actress Kara Day Levine 341 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:53,159 Speaker 1: joined the conversation as well. She posted a picture, although 342 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:55,919 Speaker 1: her nipple was exed out, I believe she posted a 343 00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:58,399 Speaker 1: picture of her naked chest next to a man's naked 344 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:00,560 Speaker 1: chest and they drew a little diagram, which is very helpful, 345 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:02,560 Speaker 1: again if you're a visual learner. I love diagraphs. I 346 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:07,239 Speaker 1: love like infographics, but on skin, um drawing around like 347 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:10,520 Speaker 1: here's the nipple, here's the areola, here's the breast tissue, 348 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:14,080 Speaker 1: and basically saying like this is fine in the world 349 00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:16,159 Speaker 1: and on social media, and this one over here that 350 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:20,159 Speaker 1: belongs to a woman is not. Like we want equality, 351 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:24,080 Speaker 1: We want the same abilities to go topless as anybody else, 352 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:28,959 Speaker 1: which led to one of my favorite free the nipple 353 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 1: off shoots, which were these male nipple image pasties of 354 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:37,960 Speaker 1: sorts um that someone I forget who it is who 355 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:40,639 Speaker 1: made them, that you could if you were a woman 356 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:43,000 Speaker 1: and you wanted to post a topless photo of yourself, 357 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:45,720 Speaker 1: but not have it taken down from social media. You 358 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:50,440 Speaker 1: could simply superimpose these male nipples on top of your 359 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:53,920 Speaker 1: female nipples so that the photo would no longer be indecent. 360 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:55,640 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, there are blogs out there that have done 361 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:59,600 Speaker 1: it on the female nude, like sculptures, paintings from history, 362 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:04,240 Speaker 1: you know, very famous works of art pasting a male 363 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:05,960 Speaker 1: nipple on top of it, like hey, well this is 364 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:07,920 Speaker 1: okay now right, this is fine well, and then on 365 00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:10,040 Speaker 1: the flip side of that you have orange is the 366 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:14,320 Speaker 1: New Black Star Matt and mcgoory, who photoshopped nipples of 367 00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:19,880 Speaker 1: Miley Cyrus and Christie Teagan onto his pecks um and 368 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:23,520 Speaker 1: he wrote on the Instagram caption, it's not just about 369 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:26,080 Speaker 1: getting an even tan. It's one piece of the puzzle 370 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:29,440 Speaker 1: of creating deep change in the way our society objectifies 371 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:33,479 Speaker 1: women and creates these different standards for men and women 372 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:37,320 Speaker 1: and other genders. Yeah. I mean Matt mcgory has been 373 00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:42,320 Speaker 1: super vocal lately about issues relating to women and feminism, 374 00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:44,720 Speaker 1: and it's really refreshing to see because he also doesn't 375 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:46,920 Speaker 1: seem like he's just jumping in and pointing his finger 376 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:48,840 Speaker 1: a people and being like here's what I think, and 377 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:51,000 Speaker 1: this is why you should believe it too, and blah 378 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:54,040 Speaker 1: blah blah. He seems to be listening just as much 379 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:57,440 Speaker 1: as he's joining in conversations. But it is funny that 380 00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:01,439 Speaker 1: he's literally, I mean, it just highlight it highlights the 381 00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 1: ridiculousness of all aspects of this that here's a man, 382 00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:10,879 Speaker 1: an attractive man, who takes nipples belonging to ladies and 383 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:14,200 Speaker 1: he puts them over his own. And it's fine because 384 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:18,080 Speaker 1: he was still a person with a male body. But Caroline, 385 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:22,880 Speaker 1: because this exists on the internet, not everybody loves it. 386 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 1: Not everybody want to free the nipple. You mentioned earlier 387 00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:31,200 Speaker 1: a number of think pieces that have thumbed their nose 388 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:35,920 Speaker 1: at the whole thing. Yeah, one was by Chica Dalmia 389 00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:40,359 Speaker 1: over at the Week in June, and she was not 390 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:43,840 Speaker 1: having it. She is not having it. She calls the 391 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:47,960 Speaker 1: movement ham handed and shocked jockey, which is actually the 392 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:53,720 Speaker 1: new nicknames for Kristen and me. He was ham handed, Fine, 393 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:56,679 Speaker 1: well now I'll be shocked jockey. All right, here we go, 394 00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 1: let's read the nips um. But yeah, she says that 395 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:03,080 Speaker 1: few real women outside of college campuses can relate to 396 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:06,239 Speaker 1: it other than publicity hungry celebrities. So she is a 397 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:11,440 Speaker 1: total skeptic. She does not believe that the Willis Sisters 398 00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:15,120 Speaker 1: or any other celebrity could possibly have any good intentions 399 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:18,240 Speaker 1: behind this at all. She goes on to say, hey, 400 00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:20,800 Speaker 1: why not try to eliminate all double standards and do 401 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:23,800 Speaker 1: away with all public and decency glass, Hey, why not 402 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:26,680 Speaker 1: start a free the balls movement? Well, ladies, you you 403 00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:29,680 Speaker 1: know be super comfortable with that, right. You know what. 404 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:33,919 Speaker 1: Mark Dupless, by the way, who is the He's in 405 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:37,920 Speaker 1: um the League and is also in uh he created 406 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:41,280 Speaker 1: and stars in Togetherness. He and his brother have talked 407 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:44,280 Speaker 1: about how there needs to be more testicle equality on 408 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 1: film because you know, we see full frontal females all 409 00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:52,840 Speaker 1: the time, but where those testicles? Yeah, she uh, Dalmia 410 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:56,440 Speaker 1: would would totally. She's definitely not in agreement. I think 411 00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:59,639 Speaker 1: she's definitely like, uh, nobody wants to see balls and 412 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:02,680 Speaker 1: so therefore also hyd your nipples. Yeah, and I don't 413 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:04,840 Speaker 1: really want to get on my Instagram fee and seed 414 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:09,600 Speaker 1: nothing but scrowt um. But she also says something um 415 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:12,560 Speaker 1: interesting that we we sort of talked around this and 416 00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:15,600 Speaker 1: about this in our last episode. She says, Look, women's 417 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:18,960 Speaker 1: breasts are sexual in a way that men's are not, 418 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:24,680 Speaker 1: and I am not willing to de sexualize myself. But 419 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:29,000 Speaker 1: I think it's interesting that she does again tie breasts 420 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:33,479 Speaker 1: completely all the way back to sexuality, uh, not seeming 421 00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:36,600 Speaker 1: to really leave room for that idea of like, I'm 422 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 1: just a lady on my front porch not wanting to 423 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:41,399 Speaker 1: wear a shirt because it's hot outside. It seems like 424 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 1: she's not even okay with that idea. Yeah, I think 425 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:55,479 Speaker 1: that perspective removes contexts out of sexuality and does speak 426 00:26:55,560 --> 00:27:02,520 Speaker 1: to more of an objectification perspective. Are we aren't where 427 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:05,840 Speaker 1: our bodies aren't part of our collective person, but rather 428 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:10,600 Speaker 1: our person is a collection of body parts, whole sack 429 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:13,440 Speaker 1: of meat. But there is some critique of Free the 430 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:18,560 Speaker 1: Nipple that really has gotten my brain wheels a turn in, 431 00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:23,440 Speaker 1: and it does have to do with the sexualization of 432 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:27,040 Speaker 1: the breast and also the kinds of breasts that we 433 00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:29,760 Speaker 1: see most prominently in Free the Nipple. And it reminds 434 00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:33,240 Speaker 1: me a lot of conversations that arose a couple of 435 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:37,240 Speaker 1: years ago when slut walks were happening a lot, Because 436 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:42,760 Speaker 1: there are very particular colors at least and sizes too, 437 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:46,879 Speaker 1: but largely colors of breasts that we're seeing, they're all 438 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:50,240 Speaker 1: for the most part white. All for the most part. 439 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:54,480 Speaker 1: Is it's not to qualifying all totally incompletely many of 440 00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:57,320 Speaker 1: them are white. It does seem like a conversation where 441 00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 1: women of color are marginalized, if not completely invisible. Yeah. 442 00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:07,720 Speaker 1: Writing over at Bustle, Georgina Jones points out that this 443 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:10,399 Speaker 1: is an ego boost for those comfortable enough to participate, 444 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:13,440 Speaker 1: essentially a new beauty standard for women to be judged 445 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:17,640 Speaker 1: on in the Who's the Best Feminist Olympics. She also 446 00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:20,200 Speaker 1: says that it's just for women with quote unquote sellable 447 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:23,439 Speaker 1: breasts like the ones that are that that type of 448 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:26,560 Speaker 1: more quote unquote quantified breasts that are featured on the 449 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:30,320 Speaker 1: Free the Nipple shirt itself, like promoting the film. Yeah, 450 00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:33,120 Speaker 1: I mean, but I and I can understand though, why 451 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:37,520 Speaker 1: in imagery for that film they would use the more 452 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:42,880 Speaker 1: stereotypically sexy boobs, because that's the whole point of the thing, 453 00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:49,560 Speaker 1: is it examining the sexiness factor? Yeah, but Jones laments 454 00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:53,000 Speaker 1: the fact that sort of this bigger movement that we 455 00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:55,840 Speaker 1: talked about, especially in our first episode on toplessness in 456 00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:59,600 Speaker 1: the legal issues surrounding it. She says that it's been 457 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:04,560 Speaker 1: sort of co opted in order to create another impossible 458 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:06,760 Speaker 1: beauty standard when the only people we see in this 459 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:12,080 Speaker 1: movement are basically white, able bodied, sus gendered women, particularly 460 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:16,600 Speaker 1: like actresses and upper class women in the media. Well, 461 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:20,040 Speaker 1: maybe I've just seen different breasts, but I have seen 462 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:25,520 Speaker 1: a diversity size shape wise of breasts that have been 463 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:30,360 Speaker 1: so called freed through this whole thing. And I understand 464 00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:34,160 Speaker 1: what Jones is staying. But rather than trying to throw 465 00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:38,480 Speaker 1: dynamite on the whole thing, I think that it's maybe 466 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:45,240 Speaker 1: more instructive to consider how our perception of bared breasts 467 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:51,560 Speaker 1: perhaps does change when you add layers of disability, or 468 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:56,440 Speaker 1: ethnicity or socioeconomics to this. How does it you know, 469 00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:59,720 Speaker 1: how how does sex work interact with all of these things? 470 00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:03,080 Speaker 1: Like there isn't an element of privilege to it. But 471 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:07,360 Speaker 1: I think that that's caused for maybe more conversation and 472 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:13,040 Speaker 1: analysis rather than just stop feministing in this way, because 473 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:17,440 Speaker 1: I really I think it's unfortunate when things devolved into 474 00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:21,400 Speaker 1: that often on social media. It's all it's all fueled 475 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:24,680 Speaker 1: by social media. Yeah, it's all yes, it's blog posts, 476 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:28,880 Speaker 1: it's thing pieces, it's hashtags, pointing fingers at each other. 477 00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:33,120 Speaker 1: And so I like, I mean not to just be 478 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:35,200 Speaker 1: like and the man is doing it right, But I 479 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:40,040 Speaker 1: like Matt mcgory's tactic, for instance, of being like, hey, like, 480 00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:42,640 Speaker 1: here's this thing I'm going to point out and and 481 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:47,400 Speaker 1: and you know, thoughtfully question it, um, just as other 482 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:50,520 Speaker 1: women have done. UM. I think that's a good way 483 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:53,280 Speaker 1: to go about it instead of necessarily pointing fingers and 484 00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:56,920 Speaker 1: saying stop doing this. Because I mean, like we pointed out, 485 00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:01,080 Speaker 1: Scott Willis was able to get a conversation started, although Caroline, 486 00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:06,720 Speaker 1: there was an intersection of this topless conversation we've been 487 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:13,960 Speaker 1: having and women of color at a protest in May 488 00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:18,040 Speaker 1: in San Francisco for Black Lives Matter, where women black 489 00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:22,800 Speaker 1: women were protesting without their shirts on to call attention 490 00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:30,360 Speaker 1: specifically to uh institutionalized violence toward black women and black 491 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:34,480 Speaker 1: women's bodily integrity as well. So, I mean, that's why 492 00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:37,320 Speaker 1: I think that these conversations are still important to have 493 00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 1: and not just to say you know what, I don't 494 00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:45,160 Speaker 1: that's that's not right, But how do we broaden it? 495 00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:47,560 Speaker 1: I think that we just need to I mean, just 496 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:53,760 Speaker 1: continue removing all of the layers so to speak, literally, figuratively, conversationally. Yeah. 497 00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:56,680 Speaker 1: So I wonder is this the future of protests, that 498 00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:59,400 Speaker 1: women are just taking their shirts off to draw attention 499 00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:02,440 Speaker 1: to their cause US or is it social media? I mean, 500 00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:05,520 Speaker 1: we talked about social media activism and our Social Justice 501 00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:10,320 Speaker 1: Warriors podcast, and the fact of the matter is it's effective. 502 00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:14,760 Speaker 1: At the very least, it's starting conversations, yeah, and helping 503 00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:18,440 Speaker 1: people to organize around an idea. Yeah. But whether Middle 504 00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:22,880 Speaker 1: America is anywhere close to seeing a female and nipple 505 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:26,280 Speaker 1: and not freaking out a little bit, I think we're 506 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:30,840 Speaker 1: a long way from that. But I'm really curious though too, 507 00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:37,200 Speaker 1: to hear from international listeners as well, because, um, I know, 508 00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:41,560 Speaker 1: the US isn't the only country that has boob hang ups. 509 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:44,959 Speaker 1: So I'd love to get as diverse a perspective on 510 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:48,840 Speaker 1: this as as possible, because I do think it's something 511 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:53,080 Speaker 1: that is different for everybody and something that everyone has 512 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:56,680 Speaker 1: an opinion on because a lot of people have nipples, 513 00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:01,280 Speaker 1: as it turns out. Yeah, So send us all of 514 00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:04,120 Speaker 1: your free the nipple thoughts mom stuff at how stuff 515 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:07,040 Speaker 1: works dot Com is our email address. You can also 516 00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:11,240 Speaker 1: tweet us at Mom's Stuff podcast and use the hashtag 517 00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:14,320 Speaker 1: for the nipple if you like, or messages on Facebook, 518 00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:16,480 Speaker 1: and we've got a couple of messages to share with 519 00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:25,360 Speaker 1: you right now. So I have a letter here that 520 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:29,040 Speaker 1: does relate to boobs, Caroline and also to waste. This 521 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:33,680 Speaker 1: is from Heather about our episode on waste training. She writes, 522 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:37,320 Speaker 1: high ladies, I just discovered your podcast. Thanks for a 523 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:41,120 Speaker 1: recommendation from my friend. I enjoy it immensely. Keep up 524 00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:44,400 Speaker 1: the good work. Thank you, Heather. I just listened to 525 00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:47,360 Speaker 1: your podcast on waste training, and I can so relate 526 00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:50,920 Speaker 1: for my wedding last year, I bought a corset bra Hey, 527 00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:53,479 Speaker 1: I'm a double D and had a straplest dress girls 528 00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:56,720 Speaker 1: needed extra support. It had the boning and didn't seem 529 00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:59,480 Speaker 1: to be that tied on me. Well, then I had 530 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,640 Speaker 1: my brie maids do up my corset back wedding gown 531 00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:06,880 Speaker 1: really tight and o MG, my boobs and booty looked amazing. 532 00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:10,400 Speaker 1: But I couldn't eat any of my dinner at the reception. 533 00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:13,080 Speaker 1: I almost passed out at the ceremony, and when I 534 00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:15,360 Speaker 1: finally took it off for the night, my rib cage 535 00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:18,440 Speaker 1: was so so so sore and t m I. I 536 00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:22,279 Speaker 1: ended up being constipated the whole night from it. The 537 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:25,120 Speaker 1: only way I could relieve the horrific stomach cramps I 538 00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:28,560 Speaker 1: was getting was to apply pressure to my abdomen. It 539 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:32,960 Speaker 1: was not worth the pain, So, Heather, I'm so sorry 540 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:36,319 Speaker 1: to hear that, but cautionary tail, especially on your wedding day. 541 00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:38,200 Speaker 1: I want to be able to eat my cake. I 542 00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:40,080 Speaker 1: want to have my cake and eat it too. Yeah, 543 00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:43,600 Speaker 1: wedding stretchy pants. Here we go. There we go, solving 544 00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:47,880 Speaker 1: all the problems and at leisurely wedding. Okay, Well, I 545 00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:50,440 Speaker 1: have a letter here from Caitlin Um, also about our 546 00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:53,239 Speaker 1: Waiste training episode. She says, I just tried using a 547 00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:56,000 Speaker 1: corset for the first time as part of my postpartum regime, 548 00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:58,560 Speaker 1: and I thought i'd share my experience with you. I 549 00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:01,400 Speaker 1: decided to dry using a course it for two reasons. 550 00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:04,000 Speaker 1: After I had my first child, I felt so weak 551 00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:06,400 Speaker 1: in my core for the first week or two after birth, 552 00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:09,600 Speaker 1: it seemed impossible to stand up straight. I thought, of course, 553 00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:11,680 Speaker 1: it might provide me with some core support until I 554 00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:15,800 Speaker 1: actually had my own core muscles back in working order again. Additionally, 555 00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:17,880 Speaker 1: I thought the course it would help my post pregnancy 556 00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:21,239 Speaker 1: pucci belly disappear faster. I actually asked my O B 557 00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:23,000 Speaker 1: g U I N about it, thinking he wouldn't have 558 00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:25,840 Speaker 1: any objections, and was surprised when he did. While he 559 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:27,920 Speaker 1: thought it wouldn't be problematic if I were it for 560 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:29,920 Speaker 1: a few weeks, he was concerned that if I were 561 00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:32,080 Speaker 1: it for a long period of time, it wouldn't allow 562 00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:34,719 Speaker 1: my core muscles to recover and do the job they're 563 00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:36,719 Speaker 1: meant to do, which is one of the ideas you 564 00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:40,319 Speaker 1: mentioned in the podcast. Despite my doctor's lack of enthusiasm, 565 00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:42,880 Speaker 1: I bought one. It was a little hard to decide 566 00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:44,720 Speaker 1: what to buy because there are a bunch of different 567 00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:47,359 Speaker 1: brands and types. I settled on a model that had 568 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:49,719 Speaker 1: boning and several rows of hooks and eyes that allow 569 00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:52,680 Speaker 1: you to continually cinch the thing tighter and tighter. It 570 00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:55,920 Speaker 1: wasn't cheap, around eighty five bucks. I started using it 571 00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:57,640 Speaker 1: for two days after I gave birth, and more at 572 00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:00,000 Speaker 1: daily for six to eight hours a day for roughly 573 00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:03,040 Speaker 1: two weeks. It was less uncomfortable than I feared, but 574 00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:04,880 Speaker 1: there were a few problems that finally led me to 575 00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:08,320 Speaker 1: abandon it more quickly than I had anticipated. First, it's hot, 576 00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:11,279 Speaker 1: especially in Hawaii in the middle of summer. Plus it 577 00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:13,319 Speaker 1: was too long for my torso, so it would dig 578 00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:15,200 Speaker 1: in under my breast or into my thighs when I 579 00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:19,480 Speaker 1: sat down, not comfortable, especially when breastfeeding. Finally, it was 580 00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:21,719 Speaker 1: a pain trying to use the bathroom while wearing it, 581 00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:23,920 Speaker 1: and this is particularly true since I was dealing with 582 00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:28,360 Speaker 1: post birth lady issues in the bathroom. However, I swear 583 00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:30,520 Speaker 1: that it did help my belly shrink faster than it 584 00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:32,799 Speaker 1: would have without it, and it helped me where non 585 00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:35,560 Speaker 1: maternity clothes right away, which was nice considering I was 586 00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:38,120 Speaker 1: so sick of all my maternity clothes by then, and 587 00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:40,160 Speaker 1: it was no small thing to hear, Wow, you just 588 00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:42,120 Speaker 1: had a baby. You look great. When I was out 589 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:44,920 Speaker 1: wearing it, Even though it wasn't perfect, I would and 590 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:47,200 Speaker 1: have still recommend it for new moms. The only thing 591 00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:49,600 Speaker 1: I would do differently is order a few different options 592 00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:51,239 Speaker 1: and try them on in order to find the one 593 00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:53,120 Speaker 1: that fit better. I think I would have worn it 594 00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:56,320 Speaker 1: longer if it had. Looking forward to your next episode, 595 00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:59,120 Speaker 1: your sides and banter with each other always make me 596 00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:03,120 Speaker 1: l O l really well. Thank you, Caitlin, and thanks 597 00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:05,719 Speaker 1: to everybody who's written into us mom stuff at how 598 00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:08,360 Speaker 1: stuff works dot com is our email address and for 599 00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:10,440 Speaker 1: links to all of our social media as well as 600 00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:13,839 Speaker 1: all of our blogs, videos, and podcasts, including this one 601 00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:16,360 Speaker 1: with our sources. So you can learn more about bringing 602 00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:19,840 Speaker 1: the nipple head on over to stuff mom Never Told 603 00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:26,360 Speaker 1: You dot com for more on this and thousands of 604 00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:36,520 Speaker 1: other topics. Is that how stuff works dot com