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Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,

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Speaker 1: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

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Speaker 1: it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to True Crime Tonight at iHeartRadio, where we talk

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Speaker 2: true crime all the time. It's Sunday, March first, and

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Speaker 2: we have a stack knight of headlines. A missing mom

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Speaker 2: turns up after twenty four years and now her past

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Speaker 2: is totally catching up with her. Plus Bill Clinton testified.

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Speaker 2: We're going to really unpack that more tomorrow though, because

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Speaker 2: we want to get into court Watch, where we're recapping

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Speaker 2: all of the big moments from trials last week to

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Speaker 2: get you up to speed and to let you know

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Speaker 2: what to be looking out for this week, from the

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Speaker 2: Alexander brothers to the alleged husband killer Corey Richins. Also,

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Speaker 2: we're going to be joined by astrologer and psychic Kim Allen.

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Speaker 2: She's extraordinary and she's going to be looking at the

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Speaker 2: charts of Prince Andrew and Sarah Ferguson to see if

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Speaker 2: anything in the stars can be revealing all that and more.

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Speaker 2: I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with Courtney Armstrong. We have Ava

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Speaker 2: Kaplan with us at the moment, and of course Taha House,

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Speaker 2: our producer, is with us as well.

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Speaker 3: Hi Coury, Yeah, and thanks for introing us.

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Speaker 2: That sounds.

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Speaker 3: I love everything you're talking about. How you doing today,

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Speaker 3: Court Good?

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Speaker 4: I get so happy when there's two producers.

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Speaker 5: It's like the biggest safety net and just they know

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Speaker 5: what's doing and anyway, it makes me very happy.

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Speaker 2: But Court, mom and dad are here. We have mom

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Speaker 2: and dad here exactly.

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Speaker 3: We're watching exactly take to produce a show and put

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Speaker 3: in a light bulb.

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Speaker 5: So we got a couple of trials. Corey Richards, we've

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Speaker 5: been talking about it. Friday was day five of the trial,

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Speaker 5: and Corey Richards, if you remember, she's the woman who's

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Speaker 5: accused of killing her husband Eric Richins with five times

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Speaker 5: a lethal dose of fentanyl. So she's up for aggravated murder,

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Speaker 5: for attempted homicide as well as financial crimes. If you remember,

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Speaker 5: there's several hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars that

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Speaker 5: are a mess in their lives. So we will continue,

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Speaker 5: of course this week, going through as the trial continues.

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Speaker 5: But one thing I wanted to note was something a

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Speaker 5: little bit crazy happened in court, which is this was Thursday,

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Speaker 5: and one of the jurors sent a note that said, Judge,

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Speaker 5: are there members of the audience in the courtroom sketching

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Speaker 5: members of the jury? Is that allowed without consent? It's

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Speaker 5: distracting and concerning. Please advise what that's like?

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Speaker 2: Very very bad. That completely undermines like the sacredness of

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Speaker 2: the courtroom.

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Speaker 3: Can I guess ask us for some people out there

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Speaker 3: who may not know so normally in that case, is

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Speaker 3: that are you not allowed to draw? Or just I

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Speaker 3: would love to explain to everybody, like why that's an

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Speaker 3: issue or do we understand what's going on?

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Speaker 4: Well?

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Speaker 5: What could be the issues because these sketches where they

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Speaker 5: were also labeling the juror by numbers, so you have

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Speaker 5: to presay protect the identity of the jurors. That's what's

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Speaker 5: that issue I got. So it could very well have

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Speaker 5: been someone innocuously doodling, but just doodling really specifically because

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Speaker 5: they're artistic, or it could have been nefarious.

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Speaker 4: We don't know at all.

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Speaker 2: Honestly, that could be very dangerous. I mean, Courtney, you

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Speaker 2: and I have been in scenarios too where in the

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Speaker 2: courtroom where there were no cameras allowed or any you know,

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Speaker 2: notes or things like. It's very serious. They really have

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Speaker 2: to make sure that for safety reasons, also that they're

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Speaker 2: keeping the identities clean, and you know, they're putting somebody

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Speaker 2: away for a very long time. Maybe a family member

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Speaker 2: of that person has a bone to pick, you know,

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Speaker 2: so it's very dangerous.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, So anyway, I just thought that was notable. I've

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Speaker 5: kind of never heard such a thing, and it did

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Speaker 5: stop the court down for a moment in time.

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Speaker 4: So we'll continue that.

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Speaker 5: I'm sure there will be lots more coming up this week,

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Speaker 5: But miss Eva, can you get us up to speed

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Speaker 5: on Colin Gray.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, so, Colin Gray, this is the I've heard the

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Speaker 6: media call it that gave my son a gun trial.

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Speaker 6: It's kind of crazy, but so this is the trial

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Speaker 6: we've been following regarding the mass shooting that took place

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Speaker 6: at Appalachi High School on September fourth of twenty twenty

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Speaker 6: four in Georgia. And the dad of the accused shooter

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Speaker 6: is the defendant, and he's facing twenty nine charges, two

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Speaker 6: counts each of second degree murder and involuntary manslaughter for

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Speaker 6: allegedly giving his son the weapon that the Sun used

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Speaker 6: to commit this shooting despite knowing all these warning signs

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Speaker 6: of the Sun's terrible and increasingly escalating mental health crisis.

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Speaker 6: And what I think is really interesting is that on Friday,

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Speaker 6: the defendant, Colin Gray, the shooter's dad, took the stand

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Speaker 6: as the only witness for his defense. So the prosecution

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Speaker 6: rested on Thursday. On Friday, Colin Gray took the stand,

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Speaker 6: And I think it's going to be really interesting to

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Speaker 6: talk about this later in the week, especially with Jarrett Farantino,

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Speaker 6: our in house counsel, because I think that, as we

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Speaker 6: were kind of talking about on Thursday night, whether or

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Speaker 6: not a defendant takes the stand in their own defense

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Speaker 6: is a very strategic and high risk, high reward type

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Speaker 6: of choice, and the fact that no other witnesses were

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Speaker 6: called to balance it out is really interesting. So hopefully

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Speaker 6: also we'll have a verdict in the next couple of days,

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Speaker 6: because he was the only witnessed for the defense, So

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Speaker 6: that's incredible.

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Speaker 2: Honestly, that is a real high stake scenario. But honestly,

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Speaker 2: he's the only one that would probably move the needle

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Speaker 2: on this the end. You know, maybe the jurors will

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Speaker 2: feel some compassion for him or feel like they can

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Speaker 2: relate to the parenting piece of it in some way,

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Speaker 2: or they may just throw the book at him. That is,

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Speaker 2: that's a wildcard. But I don't think what we've seen

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Speaker 2: so far or heard so far has helped him much

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Speaker 2: or helped him in terms of going home many time soon. No,

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Speaker 2: not at all.

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Speaker 3: Especially go ahead, Courtney, I think we're probably saying the

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Speaker 3: same thing.

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Speaker 2: What were you going to say?

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Speaker 5: Just you know, his daughter's testimony, who was the sister

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Speaker 5: of the alleged shooter, his ex wife's testimony, and just

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Speaker 5: all of the testimony of also officers who came. I mean,

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Speaker 5: there were so many really loud warning bells that seemed

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Speaker 5: to comment the dad that he didn't take action after so.

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Speaker 3: That even his mother or the shooter's grandmother who was

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Speaker 3: also someone who was involved with saying there are issues.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, Taha, we're all human. Well listen, if you were

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Speaker 5: just joining us, we are not just holding for Taha.

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Speaker 5: This is true crime tonight, and we're in the middle

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Speaker 5: of court watch, and we're kind of breaking down all

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Speaker 5: of the trials that we will continue to follow in

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Speaker 5: this upcoming week. We have a lot on the Alexander brothers. Stephanie, Oh,

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Speaker 5: bring it. I want to hear all of it, all

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Speaker 5: of it, all of it, okay, so important. On Friday,

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Speaker 5: federal prosecutors said they plan to drop two sex trafficking

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Speaker 5: charges against the three Alexander brothers or Intel and a lawn.

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Speaker 5: And this, of course is in the midst of the

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Speaker 5: Manhattan federal trial, heading toward the end of the prosecution's case.

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Speaker 4: Now, if as.

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Speaker 5: A reminder, the Alexander brothers really really high powered real

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Speaker 5: estate brokers doing record breaking sales to Kardashians, etc. And

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Speaker 5: also really big figures in Manhattan, Miami, the Hampton social circles,

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Speaker 5: big time, big time. So you know, they've been up

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Speaker 5: for federal sex trafficking charges and the claims or that

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Speaker 5: it was force, fraud, coercion, and sometimes drugging to sexually

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Speaker 5: assault dozens of women over the course of twenty years.

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Speaker 5: But the charges, the charges were dropped. The prosecutors told

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Speaker 5: the judge that they're dropping two counts, which are standalone

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Speaker 5: sex trafficking charges, and each of those counts carried a

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Speaker 5: fifteen year mandatory minimum, So they're going to be off

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Speaker 5: the table.

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Speaker 2: Now, So what does that mean, Like, what is the

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Speaker 2: repercussions to that. I mean, that's a pretty big hit

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Speaker 2: to that case. It's a pretty big hit to the case.

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Speaker 2: So the drop counts they involved two victims, victims four

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Speaker 2: and five, and it's in regards to an incident that

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Speaker 2: happened in two thousand and nine where the brothers allegedly

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Speaker 2: transported those two women across state lines who's them into sex.

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Speaker 2: So what the assistant attorney said was, quote, we're in

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Speaker 2: this position because of what happened with regard to the

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Speaker 2: defense investigators. So they're linking the dismissal to alleged witness intimidation.

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Speaker 6: This is really crazy. I cannot believe when I read

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Speaker 6: the story that the defense isn't facing any consequences for

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Speaker 6: what the prosecution is happening, which is that the defense

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Speaker 6: hired a private investigator to kind of investigate some of

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Speaker 6: these victims, these alleged victims, and this private investigator that

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Speaker 6: the defense hired posed as an insurance agent. Oh my god,

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Speaker 6: question neighbors of the victims about the victim's children who

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Speaker 6: are minors. So there was like this whole weird scheme

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Speaker 6: involving like a private investigator and a That's what happened

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Speaker 6: sending the kids, and the prosecution is saying, Okay, well

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Speaker 6: they were scared because there was some strange man inquiring

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Speaker 6: about their kids and that's why they didn't end up testifying.

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Speaker 6: So now they were forced to drop these charges.

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Speaker 2: Wow, it's incredible. I mean, that really sets up if

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Speaker 2: in fact that's true. And I know again we're the

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Speaker 2: Alexander brothers claim their innocence, so that's really worth stating.

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Speaker 2: But that kind of thing that happened in the Ditty

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Speaker 2: case as well, I mean what does that mean, Like, again,

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Speaker 2: is that money? Is that fear? Is it both the intimidation?

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Speaker 2: You guys seen the show The Juror.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I've seen The Juror and the show The Jury

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Speaker 3: Jury Duty, I've seen that. But is that I guess

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Speaker 3: my quick question is that is legal? Like they could

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Speaker 3: you can hire a private investigator and do that, like

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Speaker 3: all of these things are able to do that.

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Speaker 5: I'm with you, Ava, it seems absolutely insane to me

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Speaker 5: that the defense is not that there's not a call

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Speaker 5: to end this.

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Speaker 4: Trial in a mistrial.

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Speaker 5: I think this alleged intimidation it precluded those witnesses then

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Speaker 5: decided not to testify.

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Speaker 6: The defense is saying it's not just that the witnesses

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Speaker 6: didn't want to testify. The defense is also saying that

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Speaker 6: the brothers submitted sworn affidavits that include kind of like

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Speaker 6: an alibi for these charges that are connected to the

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Speaker 6: claims that these witnesses are making. So if the brothers

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Speaker 6: kind of submitted this alibi, the defense is essentially saying

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Speaker 6: that the prosecution doesn't have the proof and it's completely

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Speaker 6: separate from this alleged witness intimidation event. But I mean,

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Speaker 6: the fact that the judge isn't kind of taking this

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Speaker 6: more seriously is kind of surprising to me, is it.

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Speaker 2: It's like, I feel like this keeps happening. I can't

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Speaker 2: you know again, maybe I we're just like seeing it

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Speaker 2: so much right now because there's so much talk about

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Speaker 2: the elites. But it's crazy making.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, the crimes of privilege.

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Speaker 5: I mean, I've been that's just been on a loop

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Speaker 5: in my head, and this seems like a thing like

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Speaker 5: why would you then be hiring someone to go and

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Speaker 5: intimidate these witnesses. If these Alexander brothers had such great alibis.

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Speaker 2: We would have known about those alibis day one and

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Speaker 2: if you have a tremendous alibi, no problem, let's talk

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Speaker 2: about it in the courtroom. You know, that's what this

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Speaker 2: is for, and that's what discovery was for leading up

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Speaker 2: to this trial. Again, it's people with a lot of money.

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Speaker 2: We say this very often and it sometimes hurts my heart.

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Speaker 2: You know, sometimes the person with the best lawyer, despite

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Speaker 2: the crime, wins, you know, and it really is one

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Speaker 2: of those many ways where you know, for the rest

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Speaker 2: of us who maybe can't afford that level of attorney

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Speaker 2: or afford that these they're like rasma't hazing the system

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Speaker 2: sometimes and so unfortunate. But in this case that's got

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Speaker 2: to be alle Stephanie.

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Speaker 6: I wonder because these the defense attorneys here for the

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Speaker 6: Alexander brothers are the same, there's some overlap between Ditty

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Speaker 6: and I'm wondering if this is kind of like a

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Speaker 6: trick in the defense attorney's playbook that we're seeing play

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Speaker 6: out twice. Do you remember exactly what the witness intimidation

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Speaker 6: was It was alleged.

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Speaker 2: It was alleged. You know, if you go back in

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Speaker 2: time and you'll remember when Ditty was first arrested, and

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Speaker 2: you know, all of the original charges were still in play,

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Speaker 2: including the racketeering charges. You know, everybody kept saying, oh,

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Speaker 2: all the celebrities that were going to come and you

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Speaker 2: know that were being called as witnesses and people were

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Speaker 2: going to come in his support. But he had his

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Speaker 2: ex girlfriend and they were so the prosecutor had a

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Speaker 2: pretty stacked deck and the idea was that they were

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Speaker 2: going to get a ton of celebrities, and it was

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Speaker 2: crickets because it felt as though every PR machine in

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Speaker 2: California made sure that not a single celebrity ultimately was

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Speaker 2: associated with Ditty or called to the carpet having to

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Speaker 2: have to kind of go there and acknowledge parties or

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Speaker 2: what have you. And allegedly one of his exes that

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Speaker 2: was really an important key witness. I'm forgetting her name

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Speaker 2: in this exact moment was a Mia that suddenly, i

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Speaker 2: think the night before kind of went missing and then

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Speaker 2: chose not to testify.

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Speaker 6: Maybe she got a visit from an insurance agent at

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Speaker 6: her door asking about her kids or loved ones.

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Speaker 2: Can you imagine like think about that. You know, you're

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Speaker 2: putting your life on the line for your fellow citizens, right,

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Speaker 2: That's what the whole point of being a juror and

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Speaker 2: respecting the process and going to the courtroom. And for lawyers,

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Speaker 2: they have to really follow the books. You can't do

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Speaker 2: this on a grading curve. But yet I look around

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Speaker 2: and I feel like there's a curve and it makes

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Speaker 2: me so sad.

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Speaker 3: And thes towards the people with the finances.

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Speaker 2: Oh yet what another very very wealthy some white wealthy

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Speaker 2: men with some cash in their pocket. It sometimes feels

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Speaker 2: like the laws just don't apply and they only apply

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Speaker 2: to the rest of us.

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Speaker 3: I honestly thought this was going to be one of

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Speaker 3: the cases where they would throw the book at them

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Speaker 3: as an example to say, okay, enough with the sex crimes,

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Speaker 3: and this would get that publicity. But we'll still have

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Speaker 3: to see where this goes. But I'm now more concerned

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Speaker 3: than I.

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Speaker 5: Was before, and there has been some what I perceive

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Speaker 5: as very damning evidence.

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Speaker 4: And again we will continue into the week following.

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Speaker 5: This, but several FBI special agents presented extensive emails and

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Speaker 5: texts that link the brothers to the alleged assaults. Among

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Speaker 5: the messages, one of the defendants along Alexander, allegedly wrote

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Speaker 5: that he quote took down a seventeen year old and

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Speaker 5: he was talking about an Aspen trip and another idea.

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Speaker 4: Of the tone of this child.

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Speaker 5: The judge overruled a defense objection to a text that

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Speaker 5: referenced dead hookers, saying, quote, no one is going to

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Speaker 5: read dead hookers as literal compare to the misogyny that

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Speaker 5: is in their texts. This is mild. That's what we're

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Speaker 5: dealing with here. Dead hookers are mild. In the Alexander case.

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Speaker 5: With that stick around, when we come back, we're going

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Speaker 5: to talk about a woman who vanished back in two

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Speaker 5: thousand and one and twenty four years later, she's been

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Speaker 5: found alive and arrested. Later still, we're going to have

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Speaker 5: psychic and astrologer Kim Allen joining us. She's going to

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Speaker 5: break down the cosmic connection between Jeffrey Epstein.

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Speaker 4: And Gallaine Maxwell. Keep it here, True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

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Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with

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Speaker 2: Courtney I'm Strong. We had Ava Kaplan, our daytime associate producer,

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Speaker 2: with us tonight. Ava and we also have of course

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Speaker 2: producer Taha with us as well. Later in the show,

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Speaker 2: Body is going to join us again before an astrologer.

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Speaker 2: We have Kim Allen, the renowned astrologer who's going to

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Speaker 2: read the chart of Prince Andrew, and Sarah Ferguson. So Ava,

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Speaker 2: where should we begin.

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Speaker 6: I really want to talk about this story that's been

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Speaker 6: on my social media about this missing woman who was

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Speaker 6: found twenty four years later, and it's kind of a

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Speaker 6: controversial one. So I'll give you guys the setup.

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Speaker 2: Yah.

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Speaker 6: Her name is Michelle Smith, and she disappeared on December ninth,

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Speaker 6: two thousand and one, two days after I was born

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Speaker 6: December seven, two thousand and one. Oh my goodness, start

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Speaker 6: a bragging about my little sweet, our little baby, Ava.

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Speaker 6: So she disappeared, and she left her home in North Carolina,

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Speaker 6: and she told her family she was going Christmas shopping

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Speaker 6: in Virginia. She was never seen again until literally this month. No,

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Speaker 6: and for the past twenty four years there's been a

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Speaker 6: missing person's investigation involving local, state, and federal agencies. And

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Speaker 6: then in February twenty twenty six, a new tip led

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Speaker 6: detectives to locate her alive and well in North Carolina,

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Speaker 6: where she told authorities that she had left voluntarily due

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Speaker 6: to quote domestic issues, Apparently she was just like, I

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Speaker 6: need to peace out and left and started a new life.

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Speaker 6: And interestingly, the plot thickens because she was just arrested

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Speaker 6: because while she was in her disappearing era for the

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Speaker 6: past twenty four years, she failed to appear in court

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Speaker 6: regarding a driving while intoxicated like ticket she had and

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Speaker 6: they had an outstanding warrant for her for that and

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Speaker 6: they arrested her on that charge.

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Speaker 2: So is that maybe why she went missing? Is that

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Speaker 2: what they're suggesting.

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Speaker 6: It seems like there were a couple stressors in her

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Speaker 6: life that were aggravating, and I kind of feel like

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Speaker 6: she just was like, I can't deal with this. I'm

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Speaker 6: going to peet out.

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Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, start over, get a fresh start.

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Speaker 5: Well it's so interesting and I really had my eyes

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Speaker 5: open to this Stephanie when we were doing murdered and

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Speaker 5: Missing in Montana. You know, if you were an adult,

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Speaker 5: you are allowed to leave your life period, pianiss like your.

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Speaker 3: Kids, And isn't there a responsibility Like well.

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Speaker 6: It's interesting because I was wondering that too, And according

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Speaker 6: to authorities, so far, there's no plans to press any

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Speaker 6: charges against her for like child abandonment or anything like

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Speaker 6: that maybe my guess is because the kids were left

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Speaker 6: in the care of their father, who continued to care

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Speaker 6: for them, so it wasn't like the kids were on

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Speaker 6: the streets. But I agree, it seems kind of shady

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Speaker 6: that as a parent you're allowed to kind of just

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Speaker 6: pick up and leave without a trace.

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Speaker 2: And can you imagine, Yeah, listen, I think that's like

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Speaker 2: morally bankrupt and deserves like mental person in. But I

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Speaker 2: don't think it's actually illegal, you know, I think and yes,

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Speaker 2: And to Courtney's point, when we were we wanted to

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Speaker 2: really put the word out for missing and murdered Indigenous girls,

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Speaker 2: and our idea was, at the beginning of our documentary,

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Speaker 2: we would show, you know, flickering amounts of faces in

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Speaker 2: their names, as many as we possibly could in one sitting,

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Speaker 2: so that you never know, when someone's watching, they may

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Speaker 2: recognize someone and hopefully offer some assistance in identifying them.

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Speaker 2: And we thought that was such a great idea, but

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Speaker 2: in reality, legally that's a very bad idea because people

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Speaker 2: may have to leave their abusive relationship and are piecing

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Speaker 2: out in the middle of the night, you know, and

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Speaker 2: that is the most dangerous time for a woman, specifically

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Speaker 2: leaving her relationship if in fact it's abusive. So that's

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Speaker 2: one thing that you don't want to out that she's

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Speaker 2: alive or where she could be and or he By

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Speaker 2: the way, this goes both ways. And also they also

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Speaker 2: just might want to peace out for whatever reason they want,

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Speaker 2: and it's not illegal, and it might make people feel

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Speaker 2: bad because they're missing you and they're looking for you,

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Speaker 2: and maybe law enforcement is, you know, sending resources to

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Speaker 2: find you. So in that regard, it is definitely definitely

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Speaker 2: not recommended. But every case is very different.

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Speaker 3: She had how many children did she have?

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Speaker 6: For she had a few. There's only one who's really

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Speaker 6: been speaking out, a daughter named Amanda, But she had

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Speaker 6: a few kids. And it's interesting stuff that you said

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Speaker 6: that about the domestic abuse, because that's what Michelle is

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Speaker 6: is telling authorities, is saying I was escaping domestic abuse.

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Speaker 2: But I left my kids. But that's exactly what Yeah,

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Speaker 2: that's where you lose me, Like that's hard. I'm not

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Speaker 2: shaming her. I'm just saying it's as Yeah, you don't

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Speaker 2: leave your kids in an abusive scenario, so you can

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Speaker 2: start over.

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Speaker 6: I know, And I think that the kids Amanda, who's

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Speaker 6: the daughter who's speaking out. She's kind of spoken to

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Speaker 6: the press about it, and as I totally understand, she

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Speaker 6: has very conflicting emotions. She says, I'm ecstatic, I'm pissed,

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Speaker 6: I'm heartbroken, I'm all over the map. My mother chose

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Speaker 6: her new life and we know that she's alive, and

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Speaker 6: for now that is enough.

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Speaker 2: To start over for them, right. So that's a tough

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Speaker 2: one to come back from. I mean, that is so deceitful,

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Speaker 2: even if it was for her own safety. Imagine for

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Speaker 2: those kids.

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Speaker 5: Horrible and Ava did this daughter, Amanda, did she have

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Speaker 5: anything else to say about sort of before her mom

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Speaker 5: left to give context.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, so, like you said, stuff, I think this drinking

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Speaker 6: wall intoxicated ticket was one of a few different kind

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Speaker 6: of pressure cooker type factors happening, because Amanda had also

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Speaker 6: said that shortly before the mom Michelle disappeared, she had

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Speaker 6: been fired from her veterinary practice where she worked for

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Speaker 6: drinking on the job, so also it seems like there

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Speaker 6: might be a few alcohol abuse related factors going into this.

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Speaker 6: She also said her mother hid alcohol in a shed

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Speaker 6: and described her parents mayor as strained by alcohol abuse, infidelity,

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Speaker 6: and arguments that quote got physical a few times.

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Speaker 3: Maybe there is a world where she is thinking I

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Speaker 3: should remove myself because I might be causing more damage

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Speaker 3: to the to You know, I don't know her whole story,

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Speaker 3: but you know, this is my way of protecting the

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Speaker 3: kids if I have an alcohol problem.

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Speaker 2: Maybe I'm just trying to Yeah, no, I know it's

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Speaker 2: very that would been in her mind, and she thinks

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Speaker 2: she's doing the right thing by her children by extra

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Speaker 2: you know what the truth is, they want their mom

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Speaker 2: and they want her home and healthy.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And the disappearance was pretty high profile

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Speaker 6: in this community because where she's from it there's only

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Speaker 6: about fifteen thousand residents and she's been missing for twenty

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Speaker 6: four years, so it's kind of been this huge No

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Speaker 6: one knew what happened. Her car was never found either.

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Speaker 6: That's still like a big question mark, is what happened

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Speaker 6: to her vehicle. Even after she was reported missing by

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Speaker 6: her husband, they'd never found her vehicle. And it's so interesting.

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Speaker 6: I'm so curious about this tip that came in on

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Speaker 6: February nineteenth, giving the tip that led to her. I

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Speaker 6: wonder if someone just like saw a picture of her

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Speaker 6: and was like, oh my god, that looks just like

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Speaker 6: my neighbor.

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Speaker 2: Think about how hard it would be to just go

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Speaker 2: missing as an adult if you chose to, If you're

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Speaker 2: like I'm just going to go and start anew as

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Speaker 2: somebody else, that's really hard to pull off. You know

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Speaker 2: with social media, you know it's people can find you

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Speaker 2: so easily. Number one. Also, you need ideas, and it's

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Speaker 2: a real commitment to pulling that off. Yeah, that she

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Speaker 2: was her life? What was her life like twenty four

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Speaker 2: years later? In my mind, I want her to be

437
00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:32,919
Speaker 2: very sad and missing her kids and living in a

438
00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:33,920
Speaker 2: small little house by.

439
00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:39,080
Speaker 7: Herself with a pot. Well I'm living in a only soup.

440
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:42,480
Speaker 7: But she may have gotten remarried. One of her neighbors

441
00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:45,000
Speaker 7: in this new trailer park community mentioned something about a

442
00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:49,479
Speaker 7: new husband what But it's unclear if she was kind

443
00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:51,560
Speaker 7: of making up the story about a husband to kind

444
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:54,480
Speaker 7: of cover her identity or what the deal was.

445
00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:57,959
Speaker 6: But she was like fully like living her right.

446
00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:02,440
Speaker 3: That's hard to hear, ye, Sten here, we've heard these before.

447
00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:04,679
Speaker 3: I always wondered too, like a lot of money was

448
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:06,680
Speaker 3: spent to try to look for this woman.

449
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:08,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

450
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:11,560
Speaker 3: Is she ever legally responsible for some of the costs

451
00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:14,159
Speaker 3: that were involved. I wonder or you know, I don't know,

452
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:16,359
Speaker 3: it's a thought that came to mind immediately when I

453
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:16,719
Speaker 3: heard this.

454
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:22,520
Speaker 5: No actuation is very real, though, But if you willfully,

455
00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:28,240
Speaker 5: like Cherry Peppini, Yeah, okay, Cherry Peppini, she willfully she lied,

456
00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:32,239
Speaker 5: she made up a kidnapping, she et cetera. But you know,

457
00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:35,439
Speaker 5: if you just disappear like in this case, one of

458
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:38,359
Speaker 5: the officials said there would be no charges related to

459
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:43,440
Speaker 5: her disappearance, and the county DA declined to pursue charges

460
00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:47,240
Speaker 5: such as abandonment, and that was due to insufficient evidence.

461
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:49,960
Speaker 2: Well think about it too, it's twenty four years later.

462
00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:53,040
Speaker 2: So go back in time twenty four years ago when

463
00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:55,199
Speaker 2: it was a huge story and everybody was missing the

464
00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:58,240
Speaker 2: woman that's gone from the town and has kids and

465
00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:00,920
Speaker 2: a husband, and I'm sure to twenty four years ago.

466
00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:04,480
Speaker 2: The maybe it's you know, winded down a little bit

467
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:07,440
Speaker 2: in the last few decades, but she should have to

468
00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:10,919
Speaker 2: pay for that. If they were looking everywhere for her

469
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:13,280
Speaker 2: and it made a lot of noise, it wasn't just

470
00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:16,720
Speaker 2: a quiet slip away. Yeah, that's very expensive, and that

471
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:19,240
Speaker 2: affects everybody taxes, et cetera.

472
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:21,159
Speaker 6: Yeah, just one more thing on the story that I

473
00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:24,600
Speaker 6: thought was interesting. Apparently she told a reporter. The mom

474
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:28,159
Speaker 6: told a reporter quote, my daughter is forgiving me. We

475
00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:30,480
Speaker 6: are in contact, so leave me alone.

476
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:34,840
Speaker 2: Oh no, it's over it already. Yeah, I got to

477
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:35,560
Speaker 2: disappear again.

478
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:36,840
Speaker 3: Please, it's all set.

479
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:40,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like I had a good thing going here. Wow,

480
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:43,440
Speaker 2: we hear. There's a lot of stories of people who

481
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:47,280
Speaker 2: have gone and like restarted their lives and it never

482
00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:50,439
Speaker 2: really works. I mean, even Whitey Bulgerer infamously, you know,

483
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:53,159
Speaker 2: just taking on a new identity and just you know,

484
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:56,000
Speaker 2: imagine the man that killed more people in the mob

485
00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:59,480
Speaker 2: than I think anyone, kind of started anew and living

486
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:02,920
Speaker 2: in Santa Monica feeding dogs with a new name. Everybody

487
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:06,560
Speaker 2: knew him. You know that happens. Yeah, that was wild.

488
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:07,639
Speaker 4: I remember.

489
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:10,919
Speaker 5: I remember when that arrest happened because I happened to

490
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:14,000
Speaker 5: be out to dinner in Santa Monica with my.

491
00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 4: In laws and we were like, is he like under

492
00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 4: oath table, like is he? It was such a big

493
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:21,400
Speaker 4: deal when that happened.

494
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:23,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like that's an infamous story. If you guys don't

495
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:26,360
Speaker 2: know it Whitey Bulger. You know again mob days, right,

496
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:30,120
Speaker 2: he like had more kills or wildly violent human being.

497
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 2: And he escapes and for decades goes kind of undercover

498
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:39,600
Speaker 2: and takes on a new identity and as a girlfriend,

499
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:42,240
Speaker 2: and like lives in a little apartment in Santa Monica

500
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:45,879
Speaker 2: and every single day apparently he was feeding the pigeons

501
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:49,199
Speaker 2: outside of his little apartment building on the promenade in

502
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:52,399
Speaker 2: Santa Monica. And he was really well liked and just

503
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 2: like a sweet little old man and the entire time

504
00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:58,959
Speaker 2: it's Whitey Bulger. And this went on for a very

505
00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:01,959
Speaker 2: very long time. Somebody spot at them on like an

506
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:06,440
Speaker 2: America's Most Wanted type thing. I'm paraphrasing this, and yeah,

507
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:08,359
Speaker 2: it was like one of the biggest rests, but it

508
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:10,040
Speaker 2: was so long after Wow.

509
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:14,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, I find those for me as a planating I

510
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:16,119
Speaker 3: find them fascinating because I'm a planner and I'm like,

511
00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:18,399
Speaker 3: how do you even like if I had to slip

512
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:20,280
Speaker 3: out and leave, Do I bring my toothbrush?

513
00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:20,840
Speaker 2: Should I do that?

514
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:21,119
Speaker 5: No?

515
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:23,399
Speaker 2: You bring that? Yeah, I don't know.

516
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:26,160
Speaker 3: I couldn't imagine that just getting up and doing it,

517
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:27,399
Speaker 3: But that's just me.

518
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:29,960
Speaker 2: So no, you just go with nothing and buy there

519
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:32,000
Speaker 2: because you want to fit in. You know, you want

520
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:35,000
Speaker 2: to be in the same clothes as wherever you are,

521
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:37,560
Speaker 2: in the same the same vibe. You don't want to

522
00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:39,919
Speaker 2: be an out of town er. So yeah, he just

523
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:43,400
Speaker 2: kind of picked up and went on, that's a good one.

524
00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:44,640
Speaker 2: That's it is.

525
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 5: And honestly, I'm brought back to all sort of the

526
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 5: Gillian Flynn what she did a long you know, just

527
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:57,359
Speaker 5: picturing the I don't know, I guess she has actually

528
00:27:57,400 --> 00:27:59,040
Speaker 5: a thing for people who go missing, because it did

529
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:02,080
Speaker 5: happen more than once, like going into a gas station

530
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:07,959
Speaker 5: of baroxiding your hair and yeah, and exactly hekful.

531
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:11,120
Speaker 2: But the problem is also, you know, for law enforcement

532
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:14,439
Speaker 2: and the people that are looking for said missing person,

533
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:17,360
Speaker 2: you know, if you do that too many times, they

534
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:19,960
Speaker 2: stop taking it so seriously. So we really saw that

535
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:23,280
Speaker 2: and murdered and missing in Montana because the sometimes there

536
00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:25,639
Speaker 2: would be a runaway or sometimes it would be someone

537
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:29,439
Speaker 2: who was just looking to start over, and you know,

538
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 2: a few of those kind of ruins the whole pot

539
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:34,600
Speaker 2: sometimes because you want to make sure people realize that

540
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:38,560
Speaker 2: it's so big, you know, a missing person's case, you

541
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:40,600
Speaker 2: have to really be on that from jump streets. So

542
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:43,680
Speaker 2: if there's hesitation from law enforcement because they think, oh,

543
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 2: just another one of those so and sos who's trying

544
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,400
Speaker 2: to either disappear or run away anyway.

545
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:54,880
Speaker 5: So, but it's interesting, I wonder what the quote correct way.

546
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:58,280
Speaker 5: So let's pretend you are someone is in an abusive

547
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 5: situation that they need to get out of for their

548
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 5: safety and not let you know the perpetrator who's potentially

549
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:10,360
Speaker 5: an intimate partner, know their whereabouts, Like what is the

550
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:15,280
Speaker 5: correct protocol too? You can't kind of whisper in police's ear.

551
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 5: I don't think and say, hey, I'm going to go missing.

552
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 5: So really I don't know how you would do that.

553
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:25,080
Speaker 5: Which is your right to disappear from your life, as

554
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:28,680
Speaker 5: you said, period while not causing more attention.

555
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:31,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, because you really want to be able to first

556
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 2: of all, it's one of those things you want to

557
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 2: think of in advance too. But that's not what always happens.

558
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 2: Sometimes in a domestic situation, it's in the heat of it.

559
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:42,240
Speaker 2: Suddenly you're making a decision and leaving right and suddenly

560
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:44,680
Speaker 2: you don't really have a plan. We should have somebody

561
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:47,280
Speaker 2: on who can really just advise that I don't want

562
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:51,760
Speaker 2: to give misinformation, God forbid, but it is the most

563
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 2: deadly time for any victim in any kind of abuse,

564
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 2: male or female, is when they decide to leave. That's

565
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 2: the pressure cooker time. So you know, we should kind

566
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:02,680
Speaker 2: of get some advisement on that.

567
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:05,000
Speaker 3: But I think I'll look into that, Will Eve, and

568
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:06,560
Speaker 3: I will we'll work on that because I think that's

569
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:09,760
Speaker 3: an excellent idea and we can give people some advice

570
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:12,280
Speaker 3: who might be listening and dig into that.

571
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 6: Just a quick Google search says, googled how to go

572
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 6: missing legally my Google search history. Guys, it's crazy. But

573
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:24,320
Speaker 6: informing a law enforcement agency such as local police that

574
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 6: you are leaving of your own volition can help prevent

575
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 6: them from expending resources on an unneeded search. If found,

576
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 6: they will not reveal your whereabouts. So that's what Google says.

577
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:37,200
Speaker 6: But I agree, we probably need an expert on this.

578
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll get that. Yeah. And there are a lot

579
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:43,880
Speaker 2: of hotlines and places and shelters that you can call

580
00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:46,560
Speaker 2: in advance. And if you're just like in a terrible

581
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:48,520
Speaker 2: situation and you know it and you're just not short,

582
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:53,240
Speaker 2: just like a little planning quiet, you know, under the surface,

583
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:56,000
Speaker 2: but there is help and you do not need to

584
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:56,440
Speaker 2: be afraid.

585
00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of help.

586
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:03,520
Speaker 2: And listen. Have Ava Kaplan, our associate producer who's also

587
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:05,760
Speaker 2: in her own little weird hot seat right now because

588
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 2: we call her Baby Barbara Walters, because she is going

589
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 2: to interview our very own Courtney Armstrong. We've been doing

590
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:15,560
Speaker 2: these little like behind the scenes, a little behind.

591
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:16,360
Speaker 4: The mike exactly.

592
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 2: So Baby Barbara, also known as Ava Kaplan, is going

593
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:24,400
Speaker 2: to ask Courtney some burning questions.

594
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 6: I'm ready, all right, I'm excited. I'm similar to with

595
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:30,200
Speaker 6: Steph segment. I wrote all of these just based on

596
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,600
Speaker 6: my own personal curiosity, so I feel like probably me

597
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 6: and the listeners are wondering the same thing since all

598
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:38,560
Speaker 6: of these questions are based on stuff like little easter

599
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:41,160
Speaker 6: eggs about yourself that you've dropped on the show but

600
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:45,760
Speaker 6: we've never really explored, so hopefully I speak for the audience. Yes,

601
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:48,760
Speaker 6: all right, girl, So we'll start with an easy one.

602
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 6: Was there a particular true crime case that first sparked

603
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:54,479
Speaker 6: your fascination or interest with the genre?

604
00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:58,360
Speaker 4: Yes and no. So growing up Martha Moxley.

605
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:02,240
Speaker 5: She was a girl who was allegedly killed by one

606
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:06,480
Speaker 5: of the Kennedys in Connecticut, and it was a high prophet.

607
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:08,200
Speaker 4: It was a long time ago, but it was a

608
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:09,400
Speaker 4: dominic done.

609
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:12,480
Speaker 5: Book, and my mom was always reading Dominic done, so

610
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:15,320
Speaker 5: Martha Moxley. And then I read actually a lot of

611
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:19,320
Speaker 5: Ted Bundy. Speaking of love Ted Bundy. I remember reading

612
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:21,280
Speaker 5: a lot of books about him, and I was interested

613
00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:25,560
Speaker 5: in the different perspectives. My favorite was a book he

614
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 5: worked at a suicide hotline and he worked at night,

615
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:30,680
Speaker 5: the middle of the night, and it was written by

616
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:32,920
Speaker 5: the woman. It was just him and a woman sitting

617
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 5: in the dark in the middle of the night, and

618
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:37,280
Speaker 5: that's how she knew him, which was very intimately.

619
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:43,280
Speaker 2: That's a really scary Yeah. Gave me chills too.

620
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:45,760
Speaker 5: So that was back in sort of high school and college.

621
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:48,120
Speaker 5: And then cut to a long time later. I was

622
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 5: at e True Hollywood Story, which at the time was

623
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:51,960
Speaker 5: in the heyday.

624
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:54,080
Speaker 4: It was a new one every week. It was so good.

625
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 5: And while I was there, we started doing true crime.

626
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 5: Investigates had brought that back and I got really interested

627
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:05,000
Speaker 5: because I got to work on two hour blocks and

628
00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:09,280
Speaker 5: they were investigating like deep water crimes at seas or

629
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:14,640
Speaker 5: hot for teacher, you know, so but I loved the

630
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 5: investigative and finding the people to talk to to help

631
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:23,040
Speaker 5: shape the stories. And then Lessing is Stephanie. When we

632
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:27,120
Speaker 5: particularly it was when crime when at least together, when

633
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:31,040
Speaker 5: we kind of officially started, it was one case of

634
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:34,680
Speaker 5: it was these young people on their honeymoon. It was

635
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:37,320
Speaker 5: a woman named Jordan and she had just married this

636
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:42,400
Speaker 5: guy named Cody, Cody squeaky clean, squeaky clean, and she

637
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 5: threw him off a cliff on their honeymoon. They were

638
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:48,920
Speaker 5: like twenty two years old. And anyway, we dug really

639
00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:51,280
Speaker 5: deep and did it, and that kind of catapulted.

640
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:54,760
Speaker 2: It was called bride to homicide. It was really called that.

641
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:58,520
Speaker 2: It was called bride's homicide, and it turned into something else.

642
00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:01,440
Speaker 2: But that story was so was scary because remember she

643
00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:05,360
Speaker 2: drove away, she passes her husband off a cliff and

644
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:08,000
Speaker 2: then they have her on CT camera leaving the mountain

645
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:11,480
Speaker 2: with him not in the car, and they called she

646
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:17,959
Speaker 2: called the hair salon to move her appointment than anything else.

647
00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:20,879
Speaker 2: So that makes sense that trax court.

648
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:22,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, so there we have it.

649
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:26,320
Speaker 6: Those are all really interesting stories and I'm so glad. Okay,

650
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:30,279
Speaker 6: this is kind of speaking of your past projects, your

651
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:34,000
Speaker 6: past careers. You mentioned once on the show, and I've

652
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:36,640
Speaker 6: never forgotten it. It was during one of our Halloween episodes.

653
00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:39,680
Speaker 6: We had someone come on to talk about ghosts. It

654
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:42,080
Speaker 6: was I forget her name, but it was Black People

655
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:43,880
Speaker 6: Don't Do Ghosts is the name of her podcast?

656
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:46,000
Speaker 2: Oh yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

657
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:49,120
Speaker 6: It was such a good episode, and I remember you

658
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:51,480
Speaker 6: referenced just oh yeah. I used to work on the

659
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:55,880
Speaker 6: show My Ghost Story. We would like investigate like haunted places,

660
00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:59,760
Speaker 6: and immediately I was like, I need to ask Courtney

661
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:03,960
Speaker 6: every thing about that. So here's my big question. Do

662
00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 6: you believe in ghosts? Why or why not? And did

663
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:10,360
Speaker 6: your kind of experience working on a ghost show influence

664
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:10,960
Speaker 6: that opinion?

665
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 2: Good questions, Eva, Baby Barbara is really setting a table.

666
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:19,759
Speaker 2: Dun dun, dunk. I want there to be lights hit me,

667
00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:24,680
Speaker 2: spotlight on you. You're looking beautiful and you're so smart.

668
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:27,080
Speaker 5: So this show I worked on, this This is the

669
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:29,879
Speaker 5: longest I ever worked on any show. Did more than

670
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:33,440
Speaker 5: eighty episodes, six stories. So do the math on that

671
00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:36,200
Speaker 5: all of those like five hundred stories. Anyway, do I

672
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:37,280
Speaker 5: believe in ghosts?

673
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:38,359
Speaker 4: I believe this year.

674
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:42,319
Speaker 5: It's a really big universe, and so yes, would be

675
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:47,640
Speaker 5: the answer. I've never had an experience personally, and did

676
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:50,799
Speaker 5: working on it shape that. I mean, we heard with

677
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:52,840
Speaker 5: all those interviews, we heard and saw some things that

678
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:54,160
Speaker 5: were really hard.

679
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:56,000
Speaker 4: To explain away.

680
00:35:56,440 --> 00:36:00,040
Speaker 5: And because it was people would have video and I

681
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:05,080
Speaker 5: always compelled by much less so the ghost Hunter, which

682
00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:07,320
Speaker 5: was kind of going on at that time, but more

683
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:10,800
Speaker 5: me and my husband, you know, live in a normal home,

684
00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:13,719
Speaker 5: have normal jobs, and there's something weird, so weird that

685
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:16,000
Speaker 5: we set up a camera and then you see stuff happening.

686
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:19,200
Speaker 2: So you see that, you saw footage that.

687
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:22,160
Speaker 5: Yeah, every single story had footage?

688
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:23,839
Speaker 2: Was it when that stuck with you?

689
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:25,840
Speaker 3: Like like you could describe something you saw that?

690
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 5: Yes, there was one and long back story that involves

691
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 5: a guy named Jesse Russell who ps is how Stephanie

692
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:33,840
Speaker 5: and I he connected.

693
00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:36,080
Speaker 2: It was our connective tissue. That's where I met at

694
00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:37,720
Speaker 2: this job is where we met. Yeah.

695
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:41,280
Speaker 5: Yeah, there was one where it was these two women

696
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:43,400
Speaker 5: and it was kind of like I described, just totally

697
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:46,800
Speaker 5: normal going about their business, but they would feel stuff

698
00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:49,560
Speaker 5: while they were in bed and it wasn't making sense,

699
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:52,200
Speaker 5: and so they set up a video and you're there

700
00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:54,200
Speaker 5: sleeping and you you know you see the clock.

701
00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:55,680
Speaker 4: Going and it was imprints.

702
00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:59,759
Speaker 5: It was like like a cat was walking on the.

703
00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:05,320
Speaker 4: God's honest truth. So that one was it was just crazy.

704
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:08,239
Speaker 2: Oh, I got I'm scared for you to say that,

705
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:11,640
Speaker 2: because Courtney doesn't really mince fools, right like she sort

706
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:14,759
Speaker 2: of like she's pretty steady Eddy, you know she's but

707
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:17,400
Speaker 2: for you to say that, that's scary Courtney or I'm strong?

708
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:19,520
Speaker 6: Yeah, So that was I want to go back and

709
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:22,640
Speaker 6: watch all of these episodes now, me too, every single one.

710
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:24,440
Speaker 2: Did you ever debunk any.

711
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:27,640
Speaker 4: My job was to help people tell their stories.

712
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:30,080
Speaker 5: I wasn't there to the bunk. I wasn't there to

713
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:33,520
Speaker 5: amp it up either. It was to tell their truth.

714
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:37,279
Speaker 5: So did some of it I personally not buy?

715
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:38,480
Speaker 4: Maybe?

716
00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:41,560
Speaker 5: Did that matter to me? Not particularly? I was asking

717
00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:44,440
Speaker 5: them questions to tell what is your personal experience? It

718
00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:46,319
Speaker 5: was called my ghost stories, so it was theirs.

719
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:49,200
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's a great way of putting it.

720
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:52,000
Speaker 5: Did anybody ever like try to trick you? Oh like

721
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:53,640
Speaker 5: send in false footage?

722
00:37:53,840 --> 00:38:02,360
Speaker 2: Sure? Like that was in that sheet.

723
00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:11,480
Speaker 6: That's crazy. So that switching gears one that I'm curious

724
00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:14,560
Speaker 6: about since we started True Crime tonight, our wonderful show

725
00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:17,439
Speaker 6: in May of twenty twenty five, so it's been coming

726
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:21,040
Speaker 6: up on a year. Is there an opinion of that

727
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:24,560
Speaker 6: you've had previous to joining the show that has evolved

728
00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:28,239
Speaker 6: or changed since starting on True Crime Tonight due to

729
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:31,360
Speaker 6: either the conversations we've had on the show, the cases

730
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:34,880
Speaker 6: we've covered, listener feedback, anything come to mind.

731
00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:36,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, i'd say a lot.

732
00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:39,719
Speaker 5: I think the main thing that's changed, and I kind

733
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:41,880
Speaker 5: of knew this, and I think it's been more firmly

734
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:47,280
Speaker 5: set is how rarely there is one story there just isn't.

735
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:50,880
Speaker 5: There's so many perspectives to every story. And even just

736
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:54,160
Speaker 5: the other night, we were talking about the case, what

737
00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:56,080
Speaker 5: did you say that I gave my kid a gun?

738
00:38:56,120 --> 00:39:00,799
Speaker 4: Case? Colin and Cochray excuse me, you know, and hearing body.

739
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:03,000
Speaker 5: Pushed back and her saying, I'm not sure about this,

740
00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:06,080
Speaker 5: and I felt really vehemently strong in my stance and

741
00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:09,960
Speaker 5: just I don't know, I think, just really keeping open

742
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:13,840
Speaker 5: and trying to withhold judgment, because man, I could be judging.

743
00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:16,680
Speaker 2: Really I don't find you so judging, not at all.

744
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:20,520
Speaker 3: You seem more like tempered and middle ground to me.

745
00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:23,880
Speaker 2: She's funny judge, but it's like it's usually called for,

746
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:29,400
Speaker 2: you know, like I think I'm right in my I

747
00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:32,600
Speaker 2: just think you're correct. Yeah, that's true. One person's judge

748
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:35,480
Speaker 2: is another person's honest, you know, and I think that's

749
00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 2: very fair. Courtney's also just fair, yes, you know, and

750
00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:43,000
Speaker 2: that's a really beautiful quality to have when you know,

751
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:46,560
Speaker 2: she's just a fair human and reliable and smart and

752
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:47,560
Speaker 2: the best.

753
00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:50,719
Speaker 3: And always calm and collected, which I appreciate. Like I

754
00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:52,880
Speaker 3: mean that this is like the love fest for Courtney,

755
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:56,200
Speaker 3: but like, hey, I love that that personality trait, Like

756
00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:59,439
Speaker 3: you just always just very calm. You think it through,

757
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:01,319
Speaker 3: like even with but when you answer a question, you

758
00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:03,560
Speaker 3: take it. I just start to blurt out things and

759
00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 3: you think a minute and say it, which I love

760
00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:09,600
Speaker 3: about you. So love that's very kind.

761
00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:10,080
Speaker 4: Thank you.

762
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:10,640
Speaker 2: Well.

763
00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:12,840
Speaker 6: That brings me very nicely to the next question I

764
00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:14,920
Speaker 6: wanted to ask because I feel like it might have

765
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:17,279
Speaker 6: a little bit of a connection, which is that we

766
00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:20,680
Speaker 6: know that you practice meditation. That's like a big part

767
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:23,719
Speaker 6: of your kind of routine, and I'm curious if you

768
00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:25,719
Speaker 6: could walk us through a little bit about what that

769
00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:27,480
Speaker 6: looks like for you and how you feel like it

770
00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:29,480
Speaker 6: impacts your your day to day life.

771
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:35,839
Speaker 2: This is such a good interview off. Sorry, yeah too.

772
00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:38,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's an app. I use an app.

773
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:40,560
Speaker 5: I mean it sounds, you know, it sounds like I'm

774
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:43,040
Speaker 5: some Buddha with practicing meditation all day long.

775
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:43,919
Speaker 4: It's an app.

776
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:46,880
Speaker 5: It's called Calm is what works for me, and I

777
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:51,080
Speaker 5: literally just every morning, I'll usually pick there's one of

778
00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:54,680
Speaker 5: three there daily and it's between seven and eleven minutes.

779
00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:56,919
Speaker 5: We're not talking about a long time, and I will

780
00:40:56,960 --> 00:40:59,799
Speaker 5: just sit and listen to it and it just it's

781
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:03,919
Speaker 5: centers me and meditation. And if I find myself, as

782
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:08,360
Speaker 5: we all do, if I feel spirally in a day

783
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:12,440
Speaker 5: or rage filled, I might pop one on a literal

784
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:15,719
Speaker 5: three minute, you know, anxiety calm. And it's literally a

785
00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:18,200
Speaker 5: reminder to breathe or ava like we were talking about

786
00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:22,439
Speaker 5: with your mom, the act of catching yourself spinning because

787
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:24,640
Speaker 5: I don't like to spin and I don't think much

788
00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:28,960
Speaker 5: good comes from it, right, and just looking five things

789
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:31,840
Speaker 5: you see, four things you hear, so it's really small

790
00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:36,279
Speaker 5: things I do. And then lastly, most nights I go

791
00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:38,320
Speaker 5: to sleep, which is my way of going to sleep

792
00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:41,400
Speaker 5: with a sleep story, which can be some kind of

793
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:43,160
Speaker 5: it's also in the meditative app.

794
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:47,000
Speaker 2: Oh, so isn't that so impressive? Yeah, And by the way,

795
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:49,640
Speaker 2: court New Armstrong also which she'll won't tell you too.

796
00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:51,600
Speaker 2: Aside from all of her great work, now, she's a

797
00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:55,240
Speaker 2: great human and friend. She's laugh funny, laugh out loud, funny,

798
00:41:55,239 --> 00:42:00,279
Speaker 2: Like there is few people honestly that if you're like

799
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:03,160
Speaker 2: outside of something and it's cold and you just want

800
00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:05,239
Speaker 2: to die laughing with somebody and you can't imagine I

801
00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:07,080
Speaker 2: will be I'm only going to be miserable and this

802
00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:11,440
Speaker 2: freezing outside until Courtney shows up, you can belly laugh.

803
00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:12,920
Speaker 2: We have had.

804
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:14,359
Speaker 4: That.

805
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:17,640
Speaker 5: I mirror that back to Stephanie, like just pee your

806
00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:22,000
Speaker 5: pants write even tell you like.

807
00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:24,200
Speaker 2: We are very different in those scenarios, but like that

808
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:26,520
Speaker 2: she is, so I laugh out loud.

809
00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:28,000
Speaker 6: You know I have fomo.

810
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:33,680
Speaker 2: I'm like so fun so funny, Stephanie. And then you

811
00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:36,040
Speaker 2: know I'm always like lost and confused and missing my

812
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:37,600
Speaker 2: phone and I don't have my bag.

813
00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:45,239
Speaker 6: Yeah, the best something. This is something that I kind

814
00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:47,720
Speaker 6: of relate to you on so I would. I'm curious

815
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:51,360
Speaker 6: because you mentioned sometimes like oh, every time I go

816
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:53,919
Speaker 6: on vacation, every time I travel, I bring like six

817
00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:56,799
Speaker 6: hardcover books kind of the same way, and like, just

818
00:42:56,840 --> 00:42:59,839
Speaker 6: in case I need to read some books. And I'm

819
00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:03,719
Speaker 6: just wondering if you have any kind of genres, authors,

820
00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:07,400
Speaker 6: series that you really are really important to you, or

821
00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:09,160
Speaker 6: what you're drawn to when you want to read a

822
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:09,560
Speaker 6: new book.

823
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:13,640
Speaker 4: It's really varied. I do enjoy memoir.

824
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:16,680
Speaker 5: I feel like I learned, Like I actually shared one

825
00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:20,920
Speaker 5: of my absolute favorite favorite favorite books. It's called Dry

826
00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:26,360
Speaker 5: by this guy, Augustin Burrows, and he actually he wrote

827
00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:28,640
Speaker 5: Running with Scissors.

828
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:30,680
Speaker 2: I was gonna say, I thought it was running with

829
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:34,160
Speaker 2: scissors if we were playing a game right now, with

830
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:36,480
Speaker 2: the game, like, what is she thinking? I thought you

831
00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:38,240
Speaker 2: would say running with scissors.

832
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:40,240
Speaker 4: And that became a movie, et cetera.

833
00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:43,319
Speaker 5: But I found Dry is I've probably read Dry nine

834
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:46,160
Speaker 5: times and it's just his memoir of his life and

835
00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:50,359
Speaker 5: it's funny and it's excightful and it's observant. So I

836
00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:52,560
Speaker 5: do like memoir. I feel like you can learn a lot.

837
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:56,160
Speaker 5: I'll also read, you know, I'm reading Atomic Habits right now.

838
00:43:56,200 --> 00:43:59,320
Speaker 5: I'm trying to we're all trying to make ourselves.

839
00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:01,080
Speaker 2: Tell us an atomic habit. I have the book too,

840
00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:04,960
Speaker 2: I just obviously haven't opened it. But happen.

841
00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:10,120
Speaker 5: The thesis is we are so much more informed by

842
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:13,400
Speaker 5: our surroundings and how we set ourselves up than we

843
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:16,960
Speaker 5: are by actual choices, Like so much of what we

844
00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:19,879
Speaker 5: do is automatic, which is really true.

845
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:21,960
Speaker 4: Like Okay, if you keep your phone right next to

846
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:22,799
Speaker 4: your bed.

847
00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:24,880
Speaker 5: You're probably going to open it and go on social

848
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:28,680
Speaker 5: media first thing, versus maybe you know you keep a

849
00:44:28,719 --> 00:44:30,799
Speaker 5: glass of water. I don't do this, you know, the

850
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:34,359
Speaker 5: lovely carafh of water with lemon to generals into your

851
00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:37,880
Speaker 5: day or whatever. But you know, it's a lot about

852
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:40,759
Speaker 5: that setting yourself up for success and making things you

853
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:44,520
Speaker 5: want to do really as easy as possible, and making

854
00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:47,520
Speaker 5: things you don't want to do, of which there are many.

855
00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:49,960
Speaker 5: I've got so many vices and just making them a

856
00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:52,839
Speaker 5: little bit harder. So that's the basis. My life isn't

857
00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:55,279
Speaker 5: changed yet, but I hold hope Ava. Why do you

858
00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:57,080
Speaker 5: I just I think we should end this segment with

859
00:44:57,120 --> 00:44:58,960
Speaker 5: why do you bring a bunch of books on vacation?

860
00:44:59,120 --> 00:45:00,480
Speaker 4: Like what's your Because I.

861
00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:02,239
Speaker 6: Don't know what mood I'm going to be in, So

862
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:04,400
Speaker 6: I don't know if I'm going to be serious silly

863
00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:08,239
Speaker 6: romance drama and what if I read five books in

864
00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:10,719
Speaker 6: one sitting and I need a six one?

865
00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:12,560
Speaker 2: But has that?

866
00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:14,600
Speaker 3: Has it ever happened? Like I bring the one book

867
00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:16,279
Speaker 3: and it sits there the whole vacation. I'm like, why

868
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:18,240
Speaker 3: did I bring this big, big Bible side.

869
00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:20,759
Speaker 2: Carrying it around at the airport and I'm like, yeah,

870
00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:21,960
Speaker 2: fighting it in your bag.

871
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:25,279
Speaker 5: It's so dumb. And when sevenies talking about Jesus, see

872
00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:28,000
Speaker 5: me do this. This is on on trips when we're

873
00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:30,320
Speaker 5: in and out and shooting for fourteen.

874
00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:30,920
Speaker 4: Hours a day.

875
00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:33,600
Speaker 2: But I have to. It's like a security She'll get

876
00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:36,160
Speaker 2: like stid security and she's like, go on without me

877
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:40,279
Speaker 2: because her bag of books got her flagged by security.

878
00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:42,959
Speaker 2: I thought the show was like, you know, bringing arms

879
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:46,040
Speaker 2: into the country. I'm like, you know, go on without us.

880
00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:52,719
Speaker 2: No man gets left behind, by the way, regardless of books.

881
00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:54,600
Speaker 2: Such a goodness is such a great inner.

882
00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:59,040
Speaker 6: You guys answering my questions. I appreciate all your answers.

883
00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:03,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, all right, listen, keep it here because oh top

884
00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:06,440
Speaker 5: of the hour, we're finally going to get to astrologer

885
00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:07,080
Speaker 5: Kim Allen.

886
00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:07,879
Speaker 4: We cannot wait.

887
00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:10,200
Speaker 5: She's going to decode the energy, the power dynamics and

888
00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:14,600
Speaker 5: the planetary patterns behind Epstein and Maxwell. So buckled up,

889
00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:16,320
Speaker 5: keep it here. True Crime Tonight.

890
00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:31,480
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

891
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:34,680
Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with

892
00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:38,120
Speaker 2: Body Move In Tonight. We're joined by Kim Allen, an

893
00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:41,279
Speaker 2: astrologer and psychic with more than twenty years of experience

894
00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:44,680
Speaker 2: helping people make sense of life's mysteries through the stars.

895
00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:47,920
Speaker 2: She's been featured in Vanity Fair, named one of New

896
00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:51,919
Speaker 2: York's top psychics by Time Out Magazine, and Tonight she's

897
00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:56,840
Speaker 2: here to explore the cosmic connections behind figures like Jeffrey Epstein,

898
00:46:57,320 --> 00:47:02,480
Speaker 2: Gele Maxwell, and of course Prince Andrew Yim first of all,

899
00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:06,400
Speaker 2: So glad, dude, we're here. That's a good one.

900
00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:09,640
Speaker 8: Honored to be here. Mercury retrograde. I'm honored to be here.

901
00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:11,000
Speaker 2: Oh is that what it is?

902
00:47:11,080 --> 00:47:11,520
Speaker 9: Right now?

903
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:16,160
Speaker 10: Just in the nick of time, she's here mercury in

904
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:19,799
Speaker 10: the microwave, because because it's just something goes crazy at

905
00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:20,560
Speaker 10: this time, right.

906
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:23,520
Speaker 8: Oh yeah, things tend to happen. But I'll tell you

907
00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:25,200
Speaker 8: the one of the things that's going to happen is

908
00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:27,080
Speaker 8: that there's going to be a lot of things are revealed.

909
00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:31,120
Speaker 8: So we have the mercury recorgrade that starts like overnight

910
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:33,960
Speaker 8: and it's going to last en Toil March twentieth, and

911
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:37,480
Speaker 8: then we have this phone lunar eclipse that's going to

912
00:47:37,480 --> 00:47:39,600
Speaker 8: expose a lot of things. So there's a lot of

913
00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:44,160
Speaker 8: secrets that are being released and unraveled and surfaced. So

914
00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:46,480
Speaker 8: there's going to be a whole lot of stuff happening

915
00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:47,239
Speaker 8: in the news.

916
00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:49,440
Speaker 9: Are you telling me there's going to be a big expose?

917
00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:52,560
Speaker 2: Is there happening in the world.

918
00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:57,320
Speaker 8: Let's start with Prince Andrews. So yes, he got arrested

919
00:47:57,360 --> 00:48:02,000
Speaker 8: on his birthday, which is absolutely awful, and the worst

920
00:48:02,080 --> 00:48:04,120
Speaker 8: is yet to come. I figured there's going to be

921
00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:06,680
Speaker 8: some sort of exposa or some sort of big reveal

922
00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:09,680
Speaker 8: happening around May of June of this year because of

923
00:48:09,719 --> 00:48:13,680
Speaker 8: the way the planets are going to conjunct his his mood.

924
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:17,120
Speaker 8: So we there's stuff that's being hidden, stuff that's going

925
00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:19,759
Speaker 8: to be revealed. It's not over yet. There's some more

926
00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:22,280
Speaker 8: digging coming up, and we're going to see what happens

927
00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:24,480
Speaker 8: May or June of this year in terms of stuff

928
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:27,400
Speaker 8: that we didn't realize was happening now when you when

929
00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:30,200
Speaker 8: you look at this charge. So Prince Andrew, he is

930
00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:33,560
Speaker 8: an Aquarius, but he's got some really weird stuff going

931
00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:39,640
Speaker 8: on with uh, with Scorpio, his neptune and his mercury

932
00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:42,799
Speaker 8: is a Scorpio, and he in his mid heaven he

933
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:46,799
Speaker 8: has Pluto, so things, a lot of good kind of

934
00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:51,040
Speaker 8: hidden stuff, secretive stuff going on. I think he is

935
00:48:51,080 --> 00:48:54,920
Speaker 8: a preveyer of secrets. He holds secret secrets and he

936
00:48:55,160 --> 00:48:56,800
Speaker 8: have a lot of secret information.

937
00:48:58,120 --> 00:49:00,440
Speaker 2: Quick question, pause there for one second. So when you

938
00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:08,680
Speaker 2: say you know Pluto or Scorpio, if for the astrological

939
00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:11,279
Speaker 2: dumb dumb in the room, what does that mean? Like

940
00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:15,280
Speaker 2: be there? Take you there, Kim. What I hear people

941
00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:18,400
Speaker 2: say that like Scorpio energy and what it what it

942
00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:23,200
Speaker 2: conjures for me is like fiery or fiery I guess,

943
00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:24,319
Speaker 2: but it's order.

944
00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:30,160
Speaker 8: Well, Scorpio's water. It is the deep recesses, they are secrets.

945
00:49:31,160 --> 00:49:34,759
Speaker 8: Is the planet of down deep hidden secrets. It is

946
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:38,880
Speaker 8: the underworld, the griminess. And when you have that, you

947
00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:41,640
Speaker 8: a person's chart. In fact, it is in his mid heaven,

948
00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:44,360
Speaker 8: you know, the highest part of his chart. He is

949
00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:49,319
Speaker 8: really one for control and one for doing very secretive

950
00:49:49,560 --> 00:49:55,080
Speaker 8: and underhanded uh you know situations. So things are just

951
00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:56,880
Speaker 8: coming out. Now, there's gonna be a whole lot of

952
00:49:56,920 --> 00:50:01,840
Speaker 8: grime coming out about his past behavior sometimes the spring

953
00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:04,480
Speaker 8: and we shall see what's really revealed.

954
00:50:05,280 --> 00:50:07,719
Speaker 2: Wow, that's just around the bend. So if you're looking

955
00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:10,720
Speaker 2: at Prince Andrew's chart before we even go further, because

956
00:50:10,719 --> 00:50:14,359
Speaker 2: I was curious about Sarah Ferguson, his ex wife, who

957
00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:17,040
Speaker 2: also has been sort of brought into the files and

958
00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:19,640
Speaker 2: is being you know, implicated in certain ways that are

959
00:50:19,640 --> 00:50:23,000
Speaker 2: really really upsetting to hear about and to read about.

960
00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:25,160
Speaker 2: We've reported quite a bit of it here. When you

961
00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:29,080
Speaker 2: look at the charts, is that just inevitable? Your your

962
00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:34,040
Speaker 2: stars make your life choices inevitable like he has, you know,

963
00:50:35,239 --> 00:50:38,360
Speaker 2: no same amount tendencies and things like that. Is that

964
00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:41,160
Speaker 2: something you can override or it's just faded?

965
00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:45,520
Speaker 8: Well, well, you have you were born with certain characteristics

966
00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:48,759
Speaker 8: that you either have to work with, work around, or

967
00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:51,759
Speaker 8: you know it's there so you can either go hide

968
00:50:51,800 --> 00:50:53,759
Speaker 8: with them or low with them. It depends on He

969
00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:56,879
Speaker 8: would have made an excellent psychologist, you know, he could

970
00:50:56,920 --> 00:50:59,120
Speaker 8: have done a lot of healing. You know, he could

971
00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:02,279
Speaker 8: you know of things for the government in terms of

972
00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:04,960
Speaker 8: trying to transform things for the better. But you know,

973
00:51:05,239 --> 00:51:09,480
Speaker 8: he is hyper sexual. It's very interesting that in his chart,

974
00:51:09,640 --> 00:51:11,640
Speaker 8: and we'll get to the other charts, but in his

975
00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:16,720
Speaker 8: chart he has this venus mars conjunction that is also

976
00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:21,800
Speaker 8: connected to uranus that is like very.

977
00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:23,200
Speaker 9: Very high social.

978
00:51:23,960 --> 00:51:31,760
Speaker 8: Yeah, listen, it's highly sexual and it's connected to uranus,

979
00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:36,000
Speaker 8: which is rebelliousness, unusualness, you know it is. It is

980
00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:38,640
Speaker 8: the sign of you know, you never know what may

981
00:51:38,719 --> 00:51:41,920
Speaker 8: happen with that. So he you know, he has this energy.

982
00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:44,320
Speaker 8: The other charts we're going to talk about has the

983
00:51:44,360 --> 00:51:51,440
Speaker 8: same aspect, which means intense sexual desire that was misplaced

984
00:51:51,600 --> 00:51:52,960
Speaker 8: and used in the wrong.

985
00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:57,840
Speaker 10: Direction obviously, right, Wow, it's crazy to me that also

986
00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:01,160
Speaker 10: you could see that stuff in a person and charts

987
00:52:01,160 --> 00:52:03,560
Speaker 10: like and that's just your birthday basically, right, the moment

988
00:52:03,600 --> 00:52:05,359
Speaker 10: of your birth can be so influenced.

989
00:52:05,480 --> 00:52:08,200
Speaker 2: But I can tell you mercury and retrograde. You know,

990
00:52:08,320 --> 00:52:11,480
Speaker 2: hitting this week has affected me fully. Everything I've touched

991
00:52:11,520 --> 00:52:14,600
Speaker 2: has either exploded or not true.

992
00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:19,400
Speaker 9: Before the show, you troubleshooted your own microphone.

993
00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:21,800
Speaker 6: Problem.

994
00:52:22,239 --> 00:52:24,200
Speaker 2: You are so good. Thank you for noticing that I did.

995
00:52:24,239 --> 00:52:30,120
Speaker 2: I did troubleshoot just before air. But typically typically though.

996
00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:35,560
Speaker 8: They have good sides to them.

997
00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:39,200
Speaker 9: Also, okay, it's not all craziness and.

998
00:52:41,800 --> 00:52:46,840
Speaker 8: Intuitiveness intuitiveness, because what happens is with the planet of logic,

999
00:52:47,160 --> 00:52:51,000
Speaker 8: it goes inward and you become more intuitive, you become

1000
00:52:51,120 --> 00:52:55,120
Speaker 8: more right brained, which means you're able to, yes, let

1001
00:52:55,200 --> 00:52:59,319
Speaker 8: your like, your creativity, your imagination. You know, the inner

1002
00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:02,840
Speaker 8: voice of yours is more powerful. You know, you start

1003
00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:05,759
Speaker 8: listening to looking for signs and you know, and messages,

1004
00:53:05,920 --> 00:53:08,040
Speaker 8: and that's one of the good things about a mercury.

1005
00:53:09,400 --> 00:53:11,960
Speaker 2: One last question you had mentioned that you thought Prince

1006
00:53:12,040 --> 00:53:15,359
Speaker 2: Andrew and another alternate universe would have made a good

1007
00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:19,640
Speaker 2: psychologist or a healer, which that seems kind of intuitive

1008
00:53:19,640 --> 00:53:23,000
Speaker 2: to me for what he's being associated with, which is,

1009
00:53:23,120 --> 00:53:27,080
Speaker 2: you know, potentially trading secrets that are against his own country.

1010
00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:30,200
Speaker 2: That's right, Yeah, but you know.

1011
00:53:31,680 --> 00:53:36,839
Speaker 8: That he has done He has the Son Pluto opposition,

1012
00:53:37,120 --> 00:53:41,200
Speaker 8: so Pluto again planet of power, manipulation, obsession. The Son

1013
00:53:41,280 --> 00:53:43,200
Speaker 8: is the ego, and I think there was a lot

1014
00:53:43,239 --> 00:53:46,600
Speaker 8: of power struggles going on behind the scenes, and I

1015
00:53:46,640 --> 00:53:48,400
Speaker 8: think that one of the one of the ways that

1016
00:53:48,440 --> 00:53:51,520
Speaker 8: he dealt with, you know, manifesting his ego with the

1017
00:53:51,560 --> 00:53:54,120
Speaker 8: power struggles. It couldn't have been with his brother, it

1018
00:53:54,120 --> 00:53:56,360
Speaker 8: could have been with the royal family, is that he

1019
00:53:56,480 --> 00:53:59,439
Speaker 8: stepped out with other things to fulfill his ego, which

1020
00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:00,880
Speaker 8: actually got him into more trouble.

1021
00:54:01,160 --> 00:54:03,160
Speaker 9: The boy that would never be king, right, yeah, this

1022
00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:07,200
Speaker 9: fair air, right, yeah, wow, because he will never be

1023
00:54:07,239 --> 00:54:11,320
Speaker 9: the king or you know, even even before all his troubles,

1024
00:54:11,640 --> 00:54:12,120
Speaker 9: right right.

1025
00:54:12,120 --> 00:54:15,680
Speaker 2: Yes, now to that point. Now, I was reading earlier

1026
00:54:15,719 --> 00:54:19,959
Speaker 2: today that currently or maybe this just stopped, he would

1027
00:54:19,960 --> 00:54:23,239
Speaker 2: have been the eighth in line, so he had to

1028
00:54:23,320 --> 00:54:26,239
Speaker 2: be cut off at the knees here and really removed

1029
00:54:26,719 --> 00:54:29,400
Speaker 2: really from the system because you know, again eighth in

1030
00:54:29,480 --> 00:54:32,120
Speaker 2: line seems far down the line, but you know, you

1031
00:54:32,200 --> 00:54:36,440
Speaker 2: never know. The world is wild, so really important seismic

1032
00:54:36,520 --> 00:54:39,400
Speaker 2: things happening, I would imagine, and for that to happen

1033
00:54:39,400 --> 00:54:42,239
Speaker 2: within the royal family, despite the chatter and despite the

1034
00:54:42,239 --> 00:54:47,759
Speaker 2: scandals of yesteryear, this is pretty tantamount to anything I

1035
00:54:47,800 --> 00:54:52,680
Speaker 2: think period, right, this is really rocking, very commic.

1036
00:54:52,560 --> 00:54:54,960
Speaker 8: So you know, and the thing was that the planet

1037
00:54:55,040 --> 00:54:57,720
Speaker 8: Saturn has a lot to do with this because Saturn

1038
00:54:57,760 --> 00:55:01,719
Speaker 8: is the planet of karma. You know, people get their

1039
00:55:01,880 --> 00:55:05,080
Speaker 8: karmis consequences and this is what's going on with his

1040
00:55:05,160 --> 00:55:05,839
Speaker 8: chart right now.

1041
00:55:06,400 --> 00:55:09,520
Speaker 9: Wow, so this is this is his karma coming back down.

1042
00:55:09,640 --> 00:55:10,040
Speaker 2: Is that.

1043
00:55:11,880 --> 00:55:14,320
Speaker 8: The thing's done in the dark because of the planet Saturn.

1044
00:55:14,760 --> 00:55:17,520
Speaker 8: Saturn is karma. Platurn wants to put you have what

1045
00:55:17,920 --> 00:55:21,120
Speaker 8: good things you get rewards for and these other things

1046
00:55:21,160 --> 00:55:24,440
Speaker 8: you get, you know, the consequences of and he at

1047
00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:28,080
Speaker 8: this point he is reaping the consequences of very bad

1048
00:55:28,160 --> 00:55:30,319
Speaker 8: negative actions, right.

1049
00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:34,560
Speaker 2: And is that how we described karma. Karma is just consequences, right,

1050
00:55:34,640 --> 00:55:36,719
Speaker 2: It's like the law of the universe, like what you

1051
00:55:36,760 --> 00:55:40,400
Speaker 2: get close around then you get out right where you

1052
00:55:40,480 --> 00:55:43,440
Speaker 2: flow you go. Is that sort of the spirit of mess.

1053
00:55:44,760 --> 00:55:48,240
Speaker 8: This or that you create for yourself? Because the universe

1054
00:55:48,360 --> 00:55:52,440
Speaker 8: is it has a very very strong memory. So just

1055
00:55:52,480 --> 00:55:55,160
Speaker 8: because you did something back and maybe fifty years ago

1056
00:55:55,200 --> 00:55:58,480
Speaker 8: and you didn't remember, the planet Carnimal will remember for you.

1057
00:55:58,520 --> 00:56:02,200
Speaker 8: The planet Saturn will remember before. And it doesn't always

1058
00:56:02,239 --> 00:56:04,800
Speaker 8: have to be bad karma. It can be good karma.

1059
00:56:05,280 --> 00:56:07,600
Speaker 8: So you know, one example of this is I remember

1060
00:56:07,600 --> 00:56:10,319
Speaker 8: when Wendy Williams first started her television show here in

1061
00:56:10,320 --> 00:56:12,880
Speaker 8: New York City, and it was, it was, it was,

1062
00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:17,640
Speaker 8: it was terrible. Over Son signed and all of a

1063
00:56:17,680 --> 00:56:23,000
Speaker 8: sudden it just bloomed. So her show was a result

1064
00:56:23,280 --> 00:56:25,719
Speaker 8: of hard work. She had been in the industry for

1065
00:56:25,760 --> 00:56:28,920
Speaker 8: a long time and she brings the rewards of that

1066
00:56:29,000 --> 00:56:33,960
Speaker 8: hard work and she became a megastar. Psychonic always have

1067
00:56:34,080 --> 00:56:36,359
Speaker 8: to be negative, but when you do things, it's either

1068
00:56:36,440 --> 00:56:38,359
Speaker 8: real big, you go real big, or you.

1069
00:56:38,239 --> 00:56:38,799
Speaker 2: Go real well.

1070
00:56:39,239 --> 00:56:42,040
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, can I ask you a quick question about

1071
00:56:42,040 --> 00:56:44,480
Speaker 3: because we're talking about Andrew and I was always a

1072
00:56:44,480 --> 00:56:48,520
Speaker 3: big fan of Sarah Ferguson. Is there maybe a connection

1073
00:56:48,800 --> 00:56:51,879
Speaker 3: with their or sort of an astrological connection with those two.

1074
00:56:52,400 --> 00:56:54,200
Speaker 2: Is there a reason why they might stay together or

1075
00:56:54,239 --> 00:56:56,160
Speaker 2: be together? You know, it's very.

1076
00:56:56,000 --> 00:57:01,080
Speaker 8: Interesting how we're back to the planet Pluto. How his

1077
00:57:01,760 --> 00:57:05,200
Speaker 8: his plural connects with her venus, so they had the

1078
00:57:05,239 --> 00:57:07,440
Speaker 8: same So what it is is a struggle for power,

1079
00:57:08,000 --> 00:57:10,880
Speaker 8: a struggle for control. I don't know how she really

1080
00:57:10,960 --> 00:57:13,480
Speaker 8: felt being in a royal family or what was actually

1081
00:57:13,520 --> 00:57:16,240
Speaker 8: going on, but they were both. She has the same

1082
00:57:16,320 --> 00:57:19,760
Speaker 8: sort of scorpion thing going on in her chart. In fact,

1083
00:57:19,840 --> 00:57:21,960
Speaker 8: listening to see I'm looking at her chart right now,

1084
00:57:22,000 --> 00:57:25,600
Speaker 8: she has uh both her neptune and her mercury is

1085
00:57:25,600 --> 00:57:28,840
Speaker 8: and scorpio also, so you know these they were I

1086
00:57:28,840 --> 00:57:31,360
Speaker 8: don't know if you know. I'll tell you the word

1087
00:57:31,400 --> 00:57:33,600
Speaker 8: that I feel when I see her chart and his

1088
00:57:33,720 --> 00:57:40,080
Speaker 8: chart is blackmail. So it's like more accumulating information maybe

1089
00:57:40,160 --> 00:57:43,800
Speaker 8: for some sort of like power move. But they were very,

1090
00:57:44,120 --> 00:57:49,240
Speaker 8: very very quiet accumulating information that may you know, help

1091
00:57:49,320 --> 00:57:51,919
Speaker 8: them in some sort of situation in the future.

1092
00:57:52,440 --> 00:57:55,040
Speaker 2: And were made that way with one another always, that

1093
00:57:55,160 --> 00:57:57,919
Speaker 2: was with each other as opposed to them doing this

1094
00:57:58,280 --> 00:57:59,120
Speaker 2: against the world.

1095
00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:03,160
Speaker 8: Were very similar. They have very similar You would not

1096
00:58:03,240 --> 00:58:04,920
Speaker 8: think that they were similar, but behind the scenes they

1097
00:58:04,920 --> 00:58:05,560
Speaker 8: were very similar.

1098
00:58:06,160 --> 00:58:06,440
Speaker 2: Wow.

1099
00:58:06,560 --> 00:58:09,040
Speaker 8: I just don't think that she was hyper sexual like him.

1100
00:58:09,520 --> 00:58:12,880
Speaker 8: I think that her her specuality or her drive was

1101
00:58:12,960 --> 00:58:16,520
Speaker 8: more in terms of like being shown and being seen,

1102
00:58:17,040 --> 00:58:19,800
Speaker 8: you know, as someone that wanted to be admired, whereas

1103
00:58:19,840 --> 00:58:22,360
Speaker 8: his he took it is a totally different.

1104
00:58:22,040 --> 00:58:25,480
Speaker 2: Way deviant, right, I was gonna say he's more he's

1105
00:58:25,640 --> 00:58:28,920
Speaker 2: being deviant because again, being over sexualized, that could be

1106
00:58:29,040 --> 00:58:31,480
Speaker 2: like you know, a kink or people have fetishes and

1107
00:58:31,600 --> 00:58:33,360
Speaker 2: like do you but whatever you want to do behind

1108
00:58:33,400 --> 00:58:38,120
Speaker 2: closed doors is your thing, sneaky, violent, you know, against

1109
00:58:38,200 --> 00:58:41,240
Speaker 2: people's will. Those are all falling under the category very

1110
00:58:41,320 --> 00:58:44,800
Speaker 2: very bad. And yeah, the more the more I am

1111
00:58:44,880 --> 00:58:48,320
Speaker 2: down this rabbit hole, it seems that there's there's plenty

1112
00:58:48,320 --> 00:58:48,840
Speaker 2: more to come.

1113
00:58:49,440 --> 00:58:52,920
Speaker 8: Oh yeah, don't be surprised if some more photographs h

1114
00:58:53,240 --> 00:58:56,800
Speaker 8: surface about Prince Andrew. Don't be surprised.

1115
00:58:58,240 --> 00:58:59,640
Speaker 2: Oh my goodness. At this point, I feel like I

1116
00:58:59,680 --> 00:59:02,080
Speaker 2: won't be surprised at anything which was upsetting because again,

1117
00:59:02,120 --> 00:59:05,200
Speaker 2: he had denied so vehemently that he was not in

1118
00:59:05,240 --> 00:59:08,400
Speaker 2: any of the photographs. They were altered, they were faked.

1119
00:59:09,040 --> 00:59:11,440
Speaker 9: I keep going back to this black mail that you mentioned.

1120
00:59:11,640 --> 00:59:14,280
Speaker 9: I think it's all so important to talk about and

1121
00:59:14,360 --> 00:59:17,480
Speaker 9: unpack a little bit because we've often like kind of

1122
00:59:17,480 --> 00:59:21,200
Speaker 9: opined that you know, Jeffrey Epstein had something over Prince

1123
00:59:21,240 --> 00:59:24,120
Speaker 9: Andrew and that you know, that's why he had to

1124
00:59:24,160 --> 00:59:27,680
Speaker 9: sell these secrets, or not sell, but give these secrets away, right,

1125
00:59:28,280 --> 00:59:30,760
Speaker 9: And did he give them to Epstein so that Epstein

1126
00:59:30,840 --> 00:59:34,200
Speaker 9: had this power over him? Is that maybe the blackmail

1127
00:59:34,360 --> 00:59:37,360
Speaker 9: is it coming from maybe the Epstein area of the

1128
00:59:37,440 --> 00:59:38,360
Speaker 9: chart and all.

1129
00:59:38,360 --> 00:59:41,920
Speaker 8: Well, so Epstein may have had some information on Prince

1130
00:59:42,000 --> 00:59:46,040
Speaker 8: Andrew and be constantly, so are forced Prince Andrew to

1131
00:59:46,080 --> 00:59:49,400
Speaker 8: do certain things. So I think it was, you know,

1132
00:59:49,440 --> 00:59:52,320
Speaker 8: a reciprocal relationship in terms of what was going on

1133
00:59:52,360 --> 00:59:54,320
Speaker 8: between the two of them. Now, when you look at

1134
00:59:54,360 --> 00:59:57,720
Speaker 8: Jeffrey Epstein's chart, you know he is an Aquarius and

1135
00:59:57,760 --> 01:00:04,480
Speaker 8: he has hypersensive a hyper sexual connection with Venus, Venus

1136
01:00:04,520 --> 01:00:08,360
Speaker 8: and Mars and Uranus, both of these men. You know,

1137
01:00:08,520 --> 01:00:13,160
Speaker 8: it's the same sort of energy that It's very interesting.

1138
01:00:13,880 --> 01:00:17,640
Speaker 8: The other thing about jeff Jeffrey Epstein is that, now

1139
01:00:17,800 --> 01:00:20,880
Speaker 8: this is really interesting. I believe that him and Galeine

1140
01:00:20,880 --> 01:00:26,680
Speaker 8: Maxwell had a past life relationship. I really believe that.

1141
01:00:26,920 --> 01:00:30,720
Speaker 8: And it is because her self note connected with his

1142
01:00:30,880 --> 01:00:34,480
Speaker 8: moon or was it her moone? No, herbald connected with

1143
01:00:34,480 --> 01:00:37,520
Speaker 8: his self note. So they had they had did something

1144
01:00:37,640 --> 01:00:40,440
Speaker 8: like this before they were connected before.

1145
01:00:41,240 --> 01:00:43,959
Speaker 9: Kim, We're gonna get into those connections coming up next,

1146
01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:47,240
Speaker 9: stay with us, coming up, Ken Allen, she's the astrologer

1147
01:00:47,280 --> 01:00:49,760
Speaker 9: and psychic is She's gonna stick around and talk more

1148
01:00:49,800 --> 01:00:53,160
Speaker 9: about Epstein and Glene Maxwell. Plus why some families turn

1149
01:00:53,200 --> 01:00:56,880
Speaker 9: to psychics when high profile investigations stall and hope starts

1150
01:00:56,880 --> 01:01:06,760
Speaker 9: to fade. Keep it right here. True Crime tonight.

1151
01:01:08,600 --> 01:01:11,600
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

1152
01:01:11,640 --> 01:01:14,320
Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Steph. I'm here with

1153
01:01:15,160 --> 01:01:19,000
Speaker 2: Body and Kim Allen. In our last segment, we explored

1154
01:01:19,200 --> 01:01:23,160
Speaker 2: the astrology behind some infamous crime couples. Now we're shifting

1155
01:01:23,160 --> 01:01:26,480
Speaker 2: gears to talk about why families sometimes turn to psychics

1156
01:01:26,600 --> 01:01:29,960
Speaker 2: during investigations. Kind of like that show the medium and

1157
01:01:30,000 --> 01:01:33,840
Speaker 2: the emotional side of their grief, the hope, their intuition.

1158
01:01:34,040 --> 01:01:38,760
Speaker 2: Sometimes that's really the missing ingredient for investigators. We were

1159
01:01:38,760 --> 01:01:42,720
Speaker 2: looking at charts for Prince Andrew and sour Ferguson to

1160
01:01:42,800 --> 01:01:45,800
Speaker 2: kind of see like, how is it possible that these

1161
01:01:45,880 --> 01:01:49,880
Speaker 2: people that have so much affluence in prestige would stoop

1162
01:01:50,000 --> 01:01:53,000
Speaker 2: to such lows? It just seems impossible to me. So

1163
01:01:53,960 --> 01:01:56,520
Speaker 2: we're looking into the stars to get some to get

1164
01:01:56,520 --> 01:02:01,400
Speaker 2: some feedback and answer some questions. So, Kim, you said

1165
01:02:01,400 --> 01:02:05,920
Speaker 2: you had other charts other than Prince Andrews. So Prince

1166
01:02:05,960 --> 01:02:10,880
Speaker 2: Andrew Fergie you think they were together potentially? No, No, Epstein,

1167
01:02:11,120 --> 01:02:15,960
Speaker 2: and you're going to look at them in a past life.

1168
01:02:16,320 --> 01:02:18,640
Speaker 2: Now I'm going to look at Epstein past like.

1169
01:02:19,200 --> 01:02:24,400
Speaker 8: So the thing about so it's about power. Their relationship

1170
01:02:24,480 --> 01:02:29,240
Speaker 8: was about power. Jeffrey Epstein's which is the planet of power,

1171
01:02:29,320 --> 01:02:32,040
Speaker 8: was in Leo. He wanted to be in charge. And

1172
01:02:32,120 --> 01:02:34,560
Speaker 8: when you look at his mid heaven, his mid heaven

1173
01:02:35,000 --> 01:02:37,600
Speaker 8: is very interesting because that's the highest point in the

1174
01:02:37,640 --> 01:02:40,600
Speaker 8: person's chart, and he has the planet Saturn Saturday is

1175
01:02:40,600 --> 01:02:45,640
Speaker 8: the planet of structure and control, and it's about business

1176
01:02:45,880 --> 01:02:49,760
Speaker 8: and it was connected to It is also the planet

1177
01:02:49,760 --> 01:02:50,200
Speaker 8: of Karna.

1178
01:02:50,680 --> 01:02:52,760
Speaker 9: Saturd notes.

1179
01:02:57,000 --> 01:03:02,400
Speaker 8: I connected to Nettune, the planet of illusion delusion, and

1180
01:03:02,440 --> 01:03:05,640
Speaker 8: the sign of Scorpio is there. Scorpio, we know, is

1181
01:03:05,760 --> 01:03:09,360
Speaker 8: very sexual. So he was in his house of business,

1182
01:03:09,440 --> 01:03:12,400
Speaker 8: you know, towards his house, his midleaven. So what he

1183
01:03:12,560 --> 01:03:17,480
Speaker 8: was actually doing was having some sort of clandestine groups

1184
01:03:17,600 --> 01:03:22,000
Speaker 8: or clandestine meeting for people that were in business with him.

1185
01:03:22,200 --> 01:03:24,480
Speaker 8: And this is how I think that he was controlling

1186
01:03:24,840 --> 01:03:29,520
Speaker 8: and manipulating and you know, getting things moving in certain circles.

1187
01:03:29,600 --> 01:03:33,280
Speaker 2: It seems like it's impossible to imagine that he wasn't

1188
01:03:33,440 --> 01:03:36,240
Speaker 2: some sort of a a spire An agent or something

1189
01:03:36,280 --> 01:03:41,360
Speaker 2: and probably yes, luring in smart scientists and big thinkers

1190
01:03:41,360 --> 01:03:44,960
Speaker 2: and world leaders and getting some maybe compromising information on

1191
01:03:45,000 --> 01:03:48,480
Speaker 2: them or video on them and then using that against them.

1192
01:03:48,560 --> 01:03:50,800
Speaker 2: Does that track? I guess that does based on what

1193
01:03:50,840 --> 01:03:51,320
Speaker 2: you're saying.

1194
01:03:51,440 --> 01:03:55,600
Speaker 8: Oh, yeah, absolutely absolutely, because there are suggestions that.

1195
01:03:55,600 --> 01:03:57,080
Speaker 6: He was fined for putin.

1196
01:03:57,400 --> 01:03:58,960
Speaker 8: So I'm sure you've heard that.

1197
01:03:59,200 --> 01:04:01,760
Speaker 2: My personal in is, yeah, I think that's where it's

1198
01:04:01,760 --> 01:04:02,320
Speaker 2: going to land.

1199
01:04:02,560 --> 01:04:07,040
Speaker 9: That's definitely something that something along those lines, not necessarily that,

1200
01:04:07,120 --> 01:04:08,840
Speaker 9: but something along those lines for sure.

1201
01:04:09,080 --> 01:04:11,600
Speaker 2: Or that he was a free agent and you know,

1202
01:04:11,760 --> 01:04:14,520
Speaker 2: working a lot of sides. You know, one country doesn't

1203
01:04:14,520 --> 01:04:17,440
Speaker 2: exclude you from turning for another. You know, this is

1204
01:04:17,480 --> 01:04:21,640
Speaker 2: somebody who was maybe working all sides for guaranteed gain.

1205
01:04:22,040 --> 01:04:26,840
Speaker 2: No matter where power shifted, he won regardless. Does that

1206
01:04:26,880 --> 01:04:27,400
Speaker 2: make sense?

1207
01:04:27,920 --> 01:04:30,280
Speaker 8: Interesting? And and the and the and the reason why

1208
01:04:30,320 --> 01:04:33,919
Speaker 8: that is interesting because the Saturn, which is the business part,

1209
01:04:33,960 --> 01:04:38,080
Speaker 8: the karma part, the constructive energy part, is conjuncted by Neptune,

1210
01:04:38,120 --> 01:04:41,560
Speaker 8: which is a ship shape. It's a ship change, yeah,

1211
01:04:41,760 --> 01:04:46,240
Speaker 8: change changes shapes. And so yet very he can very

1212
01:04:46,280 --> 01:04:48,880
Speaker 8: well have changed sides or did whatever it was to

1213
01:04:49,440 --> 01:04:50,840
Speaker 8: get that sort of power and control.

1214
01:04:50,880 --> 01:04:51,760
Speaker 2: But he wanted.

1215
01:04:52,240 --> 01:04:55,680
Speaker 8: Now, when I look at glay Maxwell's charge, she let's

1216
01:04:55,680 --> 01:04:58,160
Speaker 8: say she's got four planets of Capricorn. What does that

1217
01:04:58,200 --> 01:05:01,920
Speaker 8: mean is the c all of the zodiac.

1218
01:05:02,000 --> 01:05:02,520
Speaker 6: It is the.

1219
01:05:02,480 --> 01:05:05,480
Speaker 8: Boss, it is the art worker, it is the person

1220
01:05:05,520 --> 01:05:08,600
Speaker 8: that is in charge. And she's got more plants in it.

1221
01:05:08,840 --> 01:05:12,880
Speaker 8: And it's interesting she's got that hyper sexual connection with

1222
01:05:13,040 --> 01:05:16,439
Speaker 8: Venus in Mars. But her venus is very interesting because

1223
01:05:16,480 --> 01:05:21,280
Speaker 8: her venus isn't Sagittarius. Now, Sagittarius is the wanderer, the

1224
01:05:21,480 --> 01:05:25,440
Speaker 8: curiosity factor of the zodiac. And for her to have

1225
01:05:25,600 --> 01:05:29,080
Speaker 8: Venus there, which means she was a very curious, wandering

1226
01:05:29,160 --> 01:05:31,760
Speaker 8: type of person when it came to her sexuality so

1227
01:05:32,280 --> 01:05:36,000
Speaker 8: connected to her Mars in Capricorn the CEO. Now, don't

1228
01:05:36,000 --> 01:05:38,520
Speaker 8: take this the wrong way, but when I seen her charge,

1229
01:05:38,560 --> 01:05:42,439
Speaker 8: I intuitively thought this is so interesting. I intuitively thought

1230
01:05:42,520 --> 01:05:43,120
Speaker 8: sex worker.

1231
01:05:43,440 --> 01:05:46,960
Speaker 2: So how really interesting because.

1232
01:05:47,400 --> 01:05:51,920
Speaker 8: Because her Mars and Capricorn has money, the acquisition of money.

1233
01:05:52,240 --> 01:05:55,680
Speaker 8: Mars is the energy planet. That's where your energy is

1234
01:05:55,800 --> 01:06:00,280
Speaker 8: in acquiring money and acquiring power. And Venus is the seductive,

1235
01:06:00,560 --> 01:06:04,960
Speaker 8: you know, social sensuous part of her chart. But she

1236
01:06:05,160 --> 01:06:08,240
Speaker 8: wasn't the sex worker. She was the madal. She was

1237
01:06:09,120 --> 01:06:11,640
Speaker 8: she was in part of the sex industry, but she

1238
01:06:11,720 --> 01:06:15,000
Speaker 8: was in control of the sex industry. And I think

1239
01:06:15,040 --> 01:06:17,840
Speaker 8: that once her and Jeffrey Epstein got together, she was

1240
01:06:17,880 --> 01:06:19,320
Speaker 8: the one that went out and got the girls after

1241
01:06:19,360 --> 01:06:22,360
Speaker 8: a while, and you know, made made things happen. And

1242
01:06:22,440 --> 01:06:25,600
Speaker 8: she she welded a lot of power, a lot of control.

1243
01:06:26,080 --> 01:06:28,440
Speaker 9: She had all she had, all the connections with the

1244
01:06:28,480 --> 01:06:33,520
Speaker 9: important people, right stuff, had all the power with people.

1245
01:06:34,640 --> 01:06:36,840
Speaker 2: I mean there was a socialite. She was with the

1246
01:06:36,920 --> 01:06:40,160
Speaker 2: royal family. It is the Prince Andrew connection for example.

1247
01:06:40,280 --> 01:06:42,840
Speaker 2: You know Macau was raised in the UK, so she

1248
01:06:42,880 --> 01:06:47,120
Speaker 2: has got to European part on lock right. So and

1249
01:06:47,200 --> 01:06:50,240
Speaker 2: maybe Epstein, who was really starting to dominate on the

1250
01:06:50,280 --> 01:06:54,920
Speaker 2: wall street, you know, burn Stern, bear Stearns and you

1251
01:06:54,960 --> 01:06:58,800
Speaker 2: know making money with hedge fund guys and financiers. She

1252
01:06:59,000 --> 01:07:02,520
Speaker 2: was more social vibes. Now put them together in the US,

1253
01:07:02,960 --> 01:07:06,560
Speaker 2: UK meets New York City with Epstein, it's probably the

1254
01:07:06,600 --> 01:07:07,960
Speaker 2: perfect storm.

1255
01:07:09,640 --> 01:07:13,440
Speaker 8: It's the perfect storm into two of them. Absolutely. So

1256
01:07:13,800 --> 01:07:15,920
Speaker 8: you know, the thing is is that she has very

1257
01:07:15,920 --> 01:07:18,360
Speaker 8: little water in her charge. She had very little empathy,

1258
01:07:19,000 --> 01:07:22,360
Speaker 8: I would imagine, So you know, she did this very

1259
01:07:22,360 --> 01:07:26,120
Speaker 8: cold blooded. You know, it's very buried with no heart.

1260
01:07:26,240 --> 01:07:29,400
Speaker 8: She was heartless when it came to getting what she

1261
01:07:29,520 --> 01:07:32,600
Speaker 8: want and getting the people she needed to use to

1262
01:07:32,640 --> 01:07:33,400
Speaker 8: get what she wanted.

1263
01:07:34,720 --> 01:07:40,040
Speaker 2: We've interviewed several survivors of Epstein and Gilaine Maxwell who

1264
01:07:40,080 --> 01:07:45,680
Speaker 2: have said firsthand that Gaylane was a monster. You know,

1265
01:07:45,720 --> 01:07:49,520
Speaker 2: she literally flew the helicopter that took these girls to

1266
01:07:49,600 --> 01:07:53,080
Speaker 2: the island, which is unbelievable.

1267
01:07:53,520 --> 01:07:57,040
Speaker 9: Right, thank you for that assessment on Glaine Maxwell and Epstein.

1268
01:07:57,080 --> 01:07:59,360
Speaker 9: You're listening to true crime tonight. We're talking true crime

1269
01:07:59,400 --> 01:08:01,960
Speaker 9: all the time. We are lucky enough to be joined

1270
01:08:01,960 --> 01:08:05,040
Speaker 9: by Kim Allen. She's a renowned astrologer in psychic out

1271
01:08:05,040 --> 01:08:07,080
Speaker 9: of New York City, and we've been just kind of

1272
01:08:07,080 --> 01:08:08,960
Speaker 9: deep diving the charts. But I kind of want to

1273
01:08:09,080 --> 01:08:12,520
Speaker 9: shift focus a little bit, if it's okay. I wanted

1274
01:08:12,560 --> 01:08:15,720
Speaker 9: to talk about the use of like psychics in crime

1275
01:08:15,800 --> 01:08:18,760
Speaker 9: solving and working with law enforcement and whatnot. So can

1276
01:08:18,800 --> 01:08:20,400
Speaker 9: we can we shift that real quick?

1277
01:08:21,040 --> 01:08:21,280
Speaker 3: Kim?

1278
01:08:21,560 --> 01:08:23,759
Speaker 9: So you've worked with families, right, You've worked with families

1279
01:08:23,800 --> 01:08:27,720
Speaker 9: during investigations. I'm assuming how does that, what does that

1280
01:08:27,760 --> 01:08:29,639
Speaker 9: look like? And how does that? How does that happen?

1281
01:08:31,000 --> 01:08:36,839
Speaker 8: So I've had enormous examples of things happening to family

1282
01:08:36,880 --> 01:08:40,720
Speaker 8: members and they're not quite sure, you know, exactly what happened,

1283
01:08:41,240 --> 01:08:45,360
Speaker 8: or they're not sure if the people the perpetrators are

1284
01:08:45,400 --> 01:08:48,640
Speaker 8: going to be found. So I will look into the

1285
01:08:48,720 --> 01:08:51,160
Speaker 8: person's chart or the charts and you know, and I

1286
01:08:51,200 --> 01:08:53,680
Speaker 8: do the terrle readings to let them know if this

1287
01:08:53,840 --> 01:08:56,759
Speaker 8: is going to happen, the timing of when it can happen,

1288
01:08:57,320 --> 01:08:59,320
Speaker 8: or if they have to try a different measure. You

1289
01:09:00,120 --> 01:09:04,240
Speaker 8: could be in a very very very very sad situation

1290
01:09:04,680 --> 01:09:07,439
Speaker 8: and you may not have the right advice, you may

1291
01:09:07,439 --> 01:09:09,599
Speaker 8: not have the right lawyer, you may not be going

1292
01:09:09,640 --> 01:09:11,880
Speaker 8: about it the right way. So would I do I

1293
01:09:11,920 --> 01:09:14,280
Speaker 8: take a look to see if you are surrounded by

1294
01:09:14,320 --> 01:09:17,680
Speaker 8: the right people and you know whether or not the

1295
01:09:17,760 --> 01:09:20,400
Speaker 8: outcome will be because if not, maybe we can shift

1296
01:09:20,560 --> 01:09:23,439
Speaker 8: the people around you to get the outcome that is

1297
01:09:23,520 --> 01:09:24,759
Speaker 8: warranted on the situation.

1298
01:09:25,960 --> 01:09:28,360
Speaker 2: So it's important it's certainly in an investigation too, to

1299
01:09:28,400 --> 01:09:30,200
Speaker 2: make sure that you have the right grouping who people

1300
01:09:30,200 --> 01:09:33,320
Speaker 2: who really believe and are are tireless and are not

1301
01:09:33,600 --> 01:09:37,040
Speaker 2: using sort of any kind of bias in their investigations.

1302
01:09:37,080 --> 01:09:39,000
Speaker 2: And sometimes if you're looking at the same thing for

1303
01:09:39,080 --> 01:09:42,400
Speaker 2: too long, you might you might miss something, you know,

1304
01:09:42,400 --> 01:09:45,200
Speaker 2: because you're almost too close to it. So I'm sure

1305
01:09:45,280 --> 01:09:48,280
Speaker 2: having to come in with a new perspective or maybe

1306
01:09:48,439 --> 01:09:50,879
Speaker 2: a shift in perspective would be very important.

1307
01:09:51,240 --> 01:09:53,479
Speaker 9: And I'm sure that this probably takes a little bit

1308
01:09:53,479 --> 01:09:56,599
Speaker 9: of a toll on you emotionally at times too. What's

1309
01:09:56,640 --> 01:09:58,960
Speaker 9: it like for you to step into cases involving like

1310
01:09:59,120 --> 01:10:01,040
Speaker 9: grief and trying how do you deal with that?

1311
01:10:02,000 --> 01:10:03,679
Speaker 8: So I love what I do.

1312
01:10:04,560 --> 01:10:07,560
Speaker 2: I'm sure I can tell people.

1313
01:10:07,400 --> 01:10:12,280
Speaker 8: I like digging for information. I like to give a

1314
01:10:12,320 --> 01:10:14,839
Speaker 8: person an answer, some sort of direction.

1315
01:10:15,439 --> 01:10:16,519
Speaker 6: And also the.

1316
01:10:16,520 --> 01:10:19,200
Speaker 8: Answer that they're looking for may not be the you know,

1317
01:10:19,240 --> 01:10:21,519
Speaker 8: it may not be the answer that the answer that

1318
01:10:21,560 --> 01:10:23,200
Speaker 8: I have for them, or the direction I have for

1319
01:10:23,240 --> 01:10:25,479
Speaker 8: them might not be the answer they're looking for. But

1320
01:10:25,520 --> 01:10:27,760
Speaker 8: I will tell them that too, so maybe they can

1321
01:10:27,920 --> 01:10:31,240
Speaker 8: shift things and start trying to go into a different

1322
01:10:31,280 --> 01:10:33,439
Speaker 8: direction to get what they need.

1323
01:10:33,760 --> 01:10:39,400
Speaker 9: You can their expectation, right, like maybe maybe even temper

1324
01:10:39,479 --> 01:10:42,439
Speaker 9: some expectation that they might have of how things are

1325
01:10:42,479 --> 01:10:44,639
Speaker 9: going to happen, right, because you.

1326
01:10:44,600 --> 01:10:47,760
Speaker 8: Know, you know, if somebody's causing a crime and they

1327
01:10:47,800 --> 01:10:51,040
Speaker 8: haven't their innocent but they don't have the right attorney,

1328
01:10:51,080 --> 01:10:53,160
Speaker 8: and I'll just tell them, look, you know, it's looking

1329
01:10:53,200 --> 01:10:55,720
Speaker 8: like they're going to do three years or whatever it is.

1330
01:10:55,960 --> 01:10:59,519
Speaker 8: It's just based on circumstances. So you know, either areus

1331
01:10:59,680 --> 01:11:02,240
Speaker 8: things try to get things changed in some way or

1332
01:11:02,439 --> 01:11:04,439
Speaker 8: this is what's this is what's headed for them.

1333
01:11:05,680 --> 01:11:08,040
Speaker 3: Kim, can I ask a quick question because I find

1334
01:11:08,040 --> 01:11:10,439
Speaker 3: this all fascinating. Is funny how Stephanie mentioned we both

1335
01:11:10,479 --> 01:11:11,639
Speaker 3: love the show Medium.

1336
01:11:11,880 --> 01:11:13,360
Speaker 2: When you are.

1337
01:11:13,280 --> 01:11:15,519
Speaker 3: Talking to people in some of these cases, is it

1338
01:11:15,720 --> 01:11:19,200
Speaker 3: are you using tarot cards, astrology or is it an

1339
01:11:19,600 --> 01:11:21,880
Speaker 3: intuition that you have or is it a combination of

1340
01:11:21,920 --> 01:11:22,799
Speaker 3: all I used.

1341
01:11:22,640 --> 01:11:25,880
Speaker 8: All three, all three, and I'll and I'll tell you why.

1342
01:11:25,920 --> 01:11:30,960
Speaker 8: For astrology is very good for timing, timing when things

1343
01:11:31,000 --> 01:11:35,400
Speaker 8: can happen, you know, like this with Prince Andrew, his

1344
01:11:35,560 --> 01:11:38,920
Speaker 8: time is up. You know, stuff is coming out, you know,

1345
01:11:39,640 --> 01:11:41,439
Speaker 8: you know, so you're using the timing and the terrible

1346
01:11:41,479 --> 01:11:47,160
Speaker 8: cards are used for details when this happens. Who's who's

1347
01:11:47,240 --> 01:11:47,840
Speaker 8: doing this?

1348
01:11:48,080 --> 01:11:49,479
Speaker 2: You know why?

1349
01:11:49,560 --> 01:11:52,120
Speaker 8: What was the reason for this to happen? And then

1350
01:11:52,160 --> 01:11:54,400
Speaker 8: my intuition sort of looks and takes a look at

1351
01:11:54,439 --> 01:11:56,639
Speaker 8: it and things sort of kind of you know, come

1352
01:11:56,680 --> 01:11:59,559
Speaker 8: together in one big picture. And that is how I

1353
01:11:59,640 --> 01:12:02,479
Speaker 8: how I use all three to help people. You know,

1354
01:12:02,840 --> 01:12:05,519
Speaker 8: sort of find some sort of solaceness of some sort

1355
01:12:05,560 --> 01:12:07,439
Speaker 8: of relief or give them some sort of answer.

1356
01:12:08,320 --> 01:12:12,839
Speaker 9: Wow, how do you balance that intuition and your insight

1357
01:12:12,920 --> 01:12:14,479
Speaker 9: while being like, you know, because you don't want to

1358
01:12:14,479 --> 01:12:17,000
Speaker 9: interfere with an investigation, right are you?

1359
01:12:17,120 --> 01:12:17,400
Speaker 2: Often?

1360
01:12:17,600 --> 01:12:20,320
Speaker 9: Have you ever like stumbled across something and you're like, oh,

1361
01:12:20,320 --> 01:12:22,400
Speaker 9: I don't know what to do with this information, Like

1362
01:12:22,479 --> 01:12:25,600
Speaker 9: are you scared about you know, how to process that

1363
01:12:25,680 --> 01:12:28,160
Speaker 9: and tell families bad news? Like has that ever happened

1364
01:12:28,200 --> 01:12:28,400
Speaker 9: to you?

1365
01:12:28,920 --> 01:12:29,000
Speaker 2: Oh?

1366
01:12:29,080 --> 01:12:32,920
Speaker 8: Yea is terrible. It does happen it, So, you know,

1367
01:12:32,960 --> 01:12:36,160
Speaker 8: I try to be real sensitive about it. I bet

1368
01:12:37,080 --> 01:12:40,240
Speaker 8: I And I'll often tell them, you know, it's not

1369
01:12:40,479 --> 01:12:43,240
Speaker 8: looking so great right now, but we'll put it, you know,

1370
01:12:43,439 --> 01:12:47,120
Speaker 8: in God's hands and we'll just see what the outcome

1371
01:12:47,160 --> 01:12:50,200
Speaker 8: will be. But I just sort of just kind of gently,

1372
01:12:51,000 --> 01:12:54,800
Speaker 8: you know, suggest that maybe they should, you know, you know,

1373
01:12:55,439 --> 01:13:00,080
Speaker 8: maybe take things, you know, prepare yourself, Yeah, prepare.

1374
01:13:01,479 --> 01:13:04,479
Speaker 9: Kind of gently preparing them for bad news.

1375
01:13:05,040 --> 01:13:09,519
Speaker 8: But never letting give up hope of course, of course.

1376
01:13:10,000 --> 01:13:13,840
Speaker 9: Yeah. Amanda Barry, you know, she was the the woman

1377
01:13:13,880 --> 01:13:18,760
Speaker 9: in Cleveland who got was captured by Ariel Castro member

1378
01:13:18,840 --> 01:13:22,000
Speaker 9: she was the one of the Columbus Three, right, one

1379
01:13:22,040 --> 01:13:27,920
Speaker 9: of the most tragic case in history. Her mom, when

1380
01:13:27,920 --> 01:13:31,479
Speaker 9: she was still missing. Her mom uh sought out a

1381
01:13:31,479 --> 01:13:36,320
Speaker 9: psychic and the psychic told her mom your daughter's past,

1382
01:13:36,600 --> 01:13:40,960
Speaker 9: and her mom died thinking that that Amanda Barry had passed.

1383
01:13:40,960 --> 01:13:43,599
Speaker 9: And I just think that's really sad. And I'm definitely

1384
01:13:43,600 --> 01:13:45,960
Speaker 9: not picking on you, just like people have to be

1385
01:13:46,000 --> 01:13:48,880
Speaker 9: careful with the things that they believe in, because this

1386
01:13:49,000 --> 01:13:51,160
Speaker 9: poor woman went, you know, went to her grave thinking

1387
01:13:51,200 --> 01:13:54,720
Speaker 9: that her daughter was was gone and she was very

1388
01:13:54,760 --> 01:13:55,320
Speaker 9: much alive.

1389
01:13:57,360 --> 01:14:01,120
Speaker 2: I am not God right right predictions.

1390
01:14:01,479 --> 01:14:03,680
Speaker 8: You know, if I see something that's not so favorable,

1391
01:14:03,680 --> 01:14:06,519
Speaker 8: I always leave some sort of hope because you know

1392
01:14:07,600 --> 01:14:08,599
Speaker 8: that has the last word.

1393
01:14:09,760 --> 01:14:11,880
Speaker 2: It's so fair and it's it's a good point. I

1394
01:14:11,920 --> 01:14:14,519
Speaker 2: do remember reading that. In that case, you know, these

1395
01:14:14,560 --> 01:14:19,320
Speaker 2: three young women were captured by this psycho mania area, right,

1396
01:14:20,240 --> 01:14:24,040
Speaker 2: he's terrible human being, and like lock them in the

1397
01:14:24,080 --> 01:14:28,920
Speaker 2: basement for many many years. Wow, it's hard stuff. And

1398
01:14:29,560 --> 01:14:33,920
Speaker 2: if anybody out there is curious, because I am and same,

1399
01:14:34,240 --> 01:14:37,120
Speaker 2: I feel like it is. Through our jobs, I feel

1400
01:14:37,120 --> 01:14:40,880
Speaker 2: like I've had the benefit of meeting people who are

1401
01:14:40,960 --> 01:14:44,759
Speaker 2: so in tuned and so good. It's undeniable. I mean taha.

1402
01:14:44,800 --> 01:14:46,360
Speaker 2: You and I remember back in the day, like you

1403
01:14:46,479 --> 01:14:49,479
Speaker 2: were on a talk show and we saw things happen

1404
01:14:49,560 --> 01:14:53,960
Speaker 2: that were undeniable. Writing a life late out of the

1405
01:14:53,960 --> 01:14:58,400
Speaker 2: girl who was you know, murdered and solves it. Right.

1406
01:14:58,520 --> 01:15:02,000
Speaker 2: So and then also I personally have also been to

1407
01:15:02,680 --> 01:15:05,320
Speaker 2: a million this is and that, and you know there's

1408
01:15:05,360 --> 01:15:07,599
Speaker 2: there's there, there are real conquers.

1409
01:15:07,960 --> 01:15:11,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, so you know there's both sides. I was telling

1410
01:15:11,400 --> 01:15:15,080
Speaker 3: you right, agreed, Yeah, there's there. I believe there are

1411
01:15:15,080 --> 01:15:17,960
Speaker 3: people out there that really do have a gift or

1412
01:15:18,000 --> 01:15:20,400
Speaker 3: something of that nature, because we we came across people

1413
01:15:20,520 --> 01:15:22,439
Speaker 3: back in the past. But then on the flip side,

1414
01:15:22,439 --> 01:15:26,639
Speaker 3: there are also these charlatans that take advantage of people

1415
01:15:26,760 --> 01:15:29,240
Speaker 3: at their low point, which is that's the part that's

1416
01:15:29,280 --> 01:15:32,320
Speaker 3: really hard for me to see when that happened him.

1417
01:15:32,439 --> 01:15:34,680
Speaker 9: It sounds like you kind of offer I don't want

1418
01:15:34,680 --> 01:15:38,479
Speaker 9: to say, like spiritual advice, but almost like a spiritual friend.

1419
01:15:38,840 --> 01:15:41,439
Speaker 9: It sounds like, you know, you comfort families and their

1420
01:15:41,520 --> 01:15:44,120
Speaker 9: need and not give them false hope, but you know,

1421
01:15:44,200 --> 01:15:46,400
Speaker 9: keep their hope alive. And I think that is kind

1422
01:15:46,439 --> 01:15:50,080
Speaker 9: of important, right, Like you're kind of offering them glimpses

1423
01:15:50,120 --> 01:15:51,080
Speaker 9: of Pope right.

1424
01:15:51,280 --> 01:15:54,880
Speaker 8: Yes, because you know you don't know the devastation of

1425
01:15:54,920 --> 01:15:56,760
Speaker 8: what you can say to a person, just like the

1426
01:15:56,800 --> 01:16:01,599
Speaker 8: moment that had died the news, so very careful about

1427
01:16:01,600 --> 01:16:02,200
Speaker 8: the information.

1428
01:16:03,840 --> 01:16:06,120
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for joining us, Kim, It's been

1429
01:16:06,160 --> 01:16:08,360
Speaker 2: truly fascinating. And for those of you who want to

1430
01:16:08,400 --> 01:16:11,040
Speaker 2: actually get in touch with Kim as well, she's at

1431
01:16:11,120 --> 01:16:16,360
Speaker 2: Kimallan dot com. That's KA I am A L L

1432
01:16:16,600 --> 01:16:30,360
Speaker 2: E N dot com. Welcome back to True Crime tonight

1433
01:16:30,400 --> 01:16:33,720
Speaker 2: on iHeartRadio. We're talking true crime all the time. I'm

1434
01:16:33,720 --> 01:16:37,679
Speaker 2: Stephanie Leidecker here with Courtney Armstrong and we have Aba

1435
01:16:37,760 --> 01:16:40,960
Speaker 2: Kaplan and Taha Hous with us as well. We get

1436
01:16:41,000 --> 01:16:42,800
Speaker 2: a lot of dms, so we want to make sure

1437
01:16:42,840 --> 01:16:45,600
Speaker 2: we're giving them proper love. So let's jam through a

1438
01:16:45,640 --> 01:16:46,439
Speaker 2: few of those guys.

1439
01:16:46,760 --> 01:16:49,479
Speaker 6: Love it, Yeah, I'd love to so. I love to

1440
01:16:49,600 --> 01:16:52,040
Speaker 6: check all your dms. By the way, guys, our socials

1441
01:16:52,120 --> 01:16:55,439
Speaker 6: have been blowing up recently. I feel like we're getting

1442
01:16:55,439 --> 01:16:58,120
Speaker 6: like five times more dms than we normally do, so

1443
01:16:58,280 --> 01:17:01,840
Speaker 6: it's pretty exciting. But one that I would love to

1444
01:17:02,080 --> 01:17:04,280
Speaker 6: get your take on. This is from Spencer from Florida,

1445
01:17:04,520 --> 01:17:07,280
Speaker 6: who always has such interesting and smart things to say

1446
01:17:07,320 --> 01:17:10,479
Speaker 6: about the cases we cover. He sent us, Hey, guys,

1447
01:17:10,560 --> 01:17:14,960
Speaker 6: I heard body mention that Celeste Reevas as in Celestis Hernandez.

1448
01:17:14,960 --> 01:17:17,320
Speaker 6: She was the fourteen year old who was found in

1449
01:17:17,360 --> 01:17:21,080
Speaker 6: the tesla registered to the singer David So. Spencer said,

1450
01:17:21,080 --> 01:17:24,080
Speaker 6: I heard body mention that Celestrievus was found in cadaver bags,

1451
01:17:24,439 --> 01:17:26,640
Speaker 6: and I was just curious if that stands out to

1452
01:17:26,640 --> 01:17:29,160
Speaker 6: any of the hosts. It surprised me as I wouldn't

1453
01:17:29,160 --> 01:17:32,000
Speaker 6: think most people would have access to those types.

1454
01:17:31,720 --> 01:17:35,080
Speaker 2: Of bags one hundred percent correct. I mean, yeah, it's

1455
01:17:35,120 --> 01:17:37,760
Speaker 2: really unless you're in the business. If you will, you know,

1456
01:17:37,840 --> 01:17:39,800
Speaker 2: that's a very specific thing and that took a lot

1457
01:17:39,800 --> 01:17:43,000
Speaker 2: of organizing to get. You can't just buy that at kmart.

1458
01:17:43,640 --> 01:17:48,280
Speaker 5: Well in fact, because Spencer it absolutely had caught all

1459
01:17:48,280 --> 01:17:50,800
Speaker 5: of our attention, and I went and looked and you

1460
01:17:50,920 --> 01:17:53,240
Speaker 5: actually you can buy cadaver bags.

1461
01:17:53,320 --> 01:17:56,880
Speaker 4: Not that hard because I looked it up thinking this should.

1462
01:17:56,680 --> 01:17:58,280
Speaker 5: Be they should be able to track it in this

1463
01:17:58,920 --> 01:18:02,320
Speaker 5: but I mean I found someone Amazon. Otherwise, in medical

1464
01:18:02,400 --> 01:18:05,639
Speaker 5: like you can go to medical equipment store. There are

1465
01:18:05,680 --> 01:18:08,920
Speaker 5: many so no it's not that hard to buy because

1466
01:18:08,920 --> 01:18:10,439
Speaker 5: I had the same thought, and I was like, it's

1467
01:18:10,479 --> 01:18:12,479
Speaker 5: you tracked, but I mean an So that.

1468
01:18:12,400 --> 01:18:14,400
Speaker 2: Means like you can't even track at all. Amazon, you

1469
01:18:14,439 --> 01:18:17,160
Speaker 2: could track, you could have bigger companies, but yeah, it's

1470
01:18:17,200 --> 01:18:19,240
Speaker 2: not so super easy if you're just not going to

1471
01:18:19,360 --> 01:18:22,479
Speaker 2: like the medical supply store in a small town would

1472
01:18:22,520 --> 01:18:23,800
Speaker 2: be a lot easier to track.

1473
01:18:24,040 --> 01:18:27,160
Speaker 6: Let's even pause on cadaver bags and remember that there

1474
01:18:27,280 --> 01:18:32,240
Speaker 6: was a farm industrial sized incinerator burn cage as well

1475
01:18:32,240 --> 01:18:35,639
Speaker 6: as a chainsaw also found in the home. Like, if anything,

1476
01:18:35,640 --> 01:18:37,160
Speaker 6: I feel like they should be able to track who

1477
01:18:37,160 --> 01:18:40,120
Speaker 6: in LA is purchasing burn cages, Who.

1478
01:18:39,920 --> 01:18:43,360
Speaker 2: Is purchasing a burn cage exactly incinerating, So now that

1479
01:18:43,479 --> 01:18:45,320
Speaker 2: kind of fills a whole story out when we know

1480
01:18:45,520 --> 01:18:48,679
Speaker 2: then again we're intimating, because again this is just somebody

1481
01:18:48,680 --> 01:18:52,120
Speaker 2: who's the focus of the investigation, meaning David the pop star.

1482
01:18:52,439 --> 01:18:55,439
Speaker 2: But it seems imminent that there may be in an arrest.

1483
01:18:55,880 --> 01:18:58,559
Speaker 2: But again, this is a very violent crime. We're now

1484
01:18:58,640 --> 01:19:01,400
Speaker 2: seeing the facts of this. If she was being dismembered

1485
01:19:01,840 --> 01:19:04,240
Speaker 2: and put into bags, that you'd have to really seek

1486
01:19:04,320 --> 01:19:08,519
Speaker 2: out in advance. Obviously, was the idea that they were

1487
01:19:08,560 --> 01:19:12,759
Speaker 2: going to incinerate poor Celeste Rebusus body in this burn

1488
01:19:12,800 --> 01:19:16,920
Speaker 2: cage after using these power tools to dismantle her, Like,

1489
01:19:16,960 --> 01:19:21,320
Speaker 2: how is this person still allowed to walk around? It

1490
01:19:21,439 --> 01:19:23,920
Speaker 2: is dangerous. It appears that whoever has done this is

1491
01:19:23,960 --> 01:19:26,840
Speaker 2: extremely violent. That is not like that's not.

1492
01:19:26,800 --> 01:19:29,760
Speaker 3: Okay, and has the you know, the knowledge to think

1493
01:19:29,800 --> 01:19:31,720
Speaker 3: all of this through. You've got to order these all

1494
01:19:31,720 --> 01:19:34,360
Speaker 3: these things. So this was like really mapped and planned

1495
01:19:34,400 --> 01:19:37,479
Speaker 3: out so that I think, I mean crimes of like passion,

1496
01:19:37,520 --> 01:19:39,760
Speaker 3: things that happened immediately. Sometimes I look at that in

1497
01:19:39,800 --> 01:19:41,800
Speaker 3: a different way, But when you sit and think it through,

1498
01:19:41,960 --> 01:19:43,919
Speaker 3: I'm like, I don't want this freak on the streets

1499
01:19:43,920 --> 01:19:44,800
Speaker 3: like that, exactly.

1500
01:19:45,640 --> 01:19:49,240
Speaker 2: Yes, And it's being also, you know, it's being intimated.

1501
01:19:49,280 --> 01:19:51,639
Speaker 2: I mean, this is not fact, but that maybe there

1502
01:19:51,720 --> 01:19:54,680
Speaker 2: was more than one person certainly in a scenario like that,

1503
01:19:54,760 --> 01:19:59,000
Speaker 2: when you're talking about incinerators and chainsaws and body bags,

1504
01:19:59,200 --> 01:20:01,600
Speaker 2: that's probably I had a one man job, right, So

1505
01:20:02,120 --> 01:20:04,719
Speaker 2: that also would maybe imply, which is what we're hearing

1506
01:20:04,760 --> 01:20:07,479
Speaker 2: rumblings about, that maybe there's more than one person involved,

1507
01:20:07,560 --> 01:20:09,680
Speaker 2: which only doubles the danger on the streets.

1508
01:20:10,320 --> 01:20:14,200
Speaker 6: Right. Yeah, it's a really good point, Spencer. So I mean,

1509
01:20:14,280 --> 01:20:16,559
Speaker 6: hopefully we'll have some answer soon because it seems like

1510
01:20:16,600 --> 01:20:20,040
Speaker 6: some motion is happening in this grand jury. So then

1511
01:20:20,920 --> 01:20:22,320
Speaker 6: on the way, I hope.

1512
01:20:22,400 --> 01:20:23,519
Speaker 2: So that's a good one.

1513
01:20:23,560 --> 01:20:25,599
Speaker 3: Well, I can I jump in with one that caught

1514
01:20:25,640 --> 01:20:28,080
Speaker 3: my eye in the DM world. Okay, and I think

1515
01:20:28,800 --> 01:20:31,519
Speaker 3: Steph and Courtney you're gonna like this one. This one

1516
01:20:31,560 --> 01:20:35,360
Speaker 3: comes from Julie, and Julie said, hello, ladies and gents

1517
01:20:35,400 --> 01:20:40,559
Speaker 3: of TCT podcast listener here from San Diego, California. My

1518
01:20:40,640 --> 01:20:44,880
Speaker 3: opinions are one, I watched the Top Model doc. Oh boy,

1519
01:20:45,400 --> 01:20:49,160
Speaker 3: Tyra seems insincere. It felt like bad acting, and the

1520
01:20:49,200 --> 01:20:51,920
Speaker 3: doc made it seem like Tyra tried to blame production

1521
01:20:52,080 --> 01:20:55,080
Speaker 3: on some of her of the weird happenings, yet she

1522
01:20:55,240 --> 01:20:59,680
Speaker 3: exploited contestants. Later on her talk show, explain away that

1523
01:20:59,760 --> 01:21:04,120
Speaker 3: one and Tyra And two, I'm impatiently waiting to link

1524
01:21:04,200 --> 01:21:06,720
Speaker 3: to buy swag as I'm heading to Crime Con and

1525
01:21:06,840 --> 01:21:09,639
Speaker 3: must be decked out when i meet miss Body, Miss

1526
01:21:09,680 --> 01:21:11,719
Speaker 3: Jo Somo and love the show.

1527
01:21:12,520 --> 01:21:19,840
Speaker 2: We love you too. That's so funny. Oh, Joseph is

1528
01:21:19,840 --> 01:21:23,760
Speaker 2: actually quite perfect too, That's so fun While.

1529
01:21:23,720 --> 01:21:26,760
Speaker 5: Taha was reading that, Stephanie and I were nodding our

1530
01:21:26,840 --> 01:21:29,439
Speaker 5: heads like one of those things on a dashboard that

1531
01:21:29,560 --> 01:21:36,479
Speaker 5: bobbles agree more. She blamed anything bad. On the one hand,

1532
01:21:36,520 --> 01:21:38,720
Speaker 5: she was like, this is my show. I created it

1533
01:21:38,760 --> 01:21:42,200
Speaker 5: for this gorgeous purpose. But then everything else was like,

1534
01:21:42,240 --> 01:21:44,240
Speaker 5: well that was under production. I had nothing to do

1535
01:21:44,320 --> 01:21:47,280
Speaker 5: with it, exactly right of her mouth the whole time.

1536
01:21:47,680 --> 01:21:49,439
Speaker 2: That was the problem with it. If she had just

1537
01:21:49,640 --> 01:21:52,320
Speaker 2: owned it in either category, look is this your show?

1538
01:21:52,360 --> 01:21:55,040
Speaker 2: And it went sideways. And now in retrospect, looking back,

1539
01:21:55,120 --> 01:21:58,599
Speaker 2: as times have changed, as you've evolved, you maybe see

1540
01:21:58,600 --> 01:22:02,120
Speaker 2: things through a different lensky or you had nothing to

1541
01:22:02,160 --> 01:22:04,599
Speaker 2: do with any of it, including its success, and that

1542
01:22:04,680 --> 01:22:06,920
Speaker 2: you didn't benefit from it so so much, you know.

1543
01:22:07,040 --> 01:22:10,720
Speaker 2: So aside from that, there's very little to absolve her

1544
01:22:10,880 --> 01:22:13,840
Speaker 2: because she really did show herself to be the front man.

1545
01:22:13,960 --> 01:22:16,040
Speaker 3: It made her look awful in so many ways. But

1546
01:22:16,120 --> 01:22:18,320
Speaker 3: even before you jump into it, did you see it?

1547
01:22:18,360 --> 01:22:19,719
Speaker 3: Am I spoiling anything by talking?

1548
01:22:19,920 --> 01:22:22,760
Speaker 6: Watch the first two episodes, so I haven't finished it,

1549
01:22:22,800 --> 01:22:25,920
Speaker 6: but even from what I've seen, I'm shocked. And I

1550
01:22:25,960 --> 01:22:28,680
Speaker 6: didn't watch Top Model, so everything I was seeing for

1551
01:22:28,720 --> 01:22:29,400
Speaker 6: the first.

1552
01:22:29,160 --> 01:22:33,240
Speaker 2: Time, I can only imagine, which, especially because you're the

1553
01:22:33,320 --> 01:22:36,960
Speaker 2: generation that is bothered by what they're seeing.

1554
01:22:37,560 --> 01:22:40,640
Speaker 6: It's beyond the part that shocked me the most was

1555
01:22:41,200 --> 01:22:47,200
Speaker 6: there was a contestant who was sexually assaulted that on camera, Yeah,

1556
01:22:47,760 --> 01:22:51,439
Speaker 6: while she was drunk. Not only did a the production

1557
01:22:51,560 --> 01:22:55,000
Speaker 6: not stop it. Yeah, oh my goodness, production filmed it,

1558
01:22:55,320 --> 01:22:58,439
Speaker 6: c used it as a plot point, and then d

1559
01:22:59,040 --> 01:23:01,640
Speaker 6: framed it as if she did something wrong, like she

1560
01:23:01,800 --> 01:23:04,920
Speaker 6: was cheating on her boyfriend when she was fully a

1561
01:23:05,040 --> 01:23:07,520
Speaker 6: victim of a sexual assault.

1562
01:23:07,640 --> 01:23:10,800
Speaker 3: On camera, and then they make her call the boyfriend

1563
01:23:10,960 --> 01:23:14,040
Speaker 3: and tell him that I've been cheating on you. Like,

1564
01:23:14,120 --> 01:23:16,559
Speaker 3: I'm like, I can't believe they're making all of this happen.

1565
01:23:16,800 --> 01:23:18,960
Speaker 6: I'm like, honestly, the fact that they would film the

1566
01:23:19,040 --> 01:23:22,720
Speaker 6: sexual assault and just aired it is beyond. Like that's

1567
01:23:22,760 --> 01:23:23,479
Speaker 6: a crime to me.

1568
01:23:23,840 --> 01:23:25,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like, what is the legality on that? What is

1569
01:23:25,880 --> 01:23:26,840
Speaker 2: the legality on that?

1570
01:23:27,080 --> 01:23:29,040
Speaker 6: I don't know. It happened in Milan, so who knows.

1571
01:23:29,040 --> 01:23:30,759
Speaker 6: But I'm like, girl, if I were you, I would

1572
01:23:30,760 --> 01:23:33,960
Speaker 6: be suing these people like crazy. They're getting you drunk,

1573
01:23:34,040 --> 01:23:36,680
Speaker 6: forcing you on these men, and then framing you as

1574
01:23:36,680 --> 01:23:39,800
Speaker 6: this cheater when you're a victim the whole time. I

1575
01:23:39,800 --> 01:23:40,960
Speaker 6: was like, you're a victim.

1576
01:23:41,520 --> 01:23:46,080
Speaker 2: I can only imagine baby Eva watching that document. I

1577
01:23:46,120 --> 01:23:48,400
Speaker 2: know it is such a different time, right, and she's

1578
01:23:48,439 --> 01:23:51,200
Speaker 2: so smart, and it must feel like it's like a

1579
01:23:51,200 --> 01:23:53,559
Speaker 2: different plant. Yeah, Like what were we thinking?

1580
01:23:53,840 --> 01:23:56,400
Speaker 3: Because I sat there and watched the episodes where they

1581
01:23:56,560 --> 01:23:59,120
Speaker 3: let's switch races, I'm like, oh, this is great, let's

1582
01:23:59,120 --> 01:24:00,599
Speaker 3: tip pull your teeth out of your mouth and give

1583
01:24:00,600 --> 01:24:02,240
Speaker 3: you a new teeth. What a smart idea. Like, I'm

1584
01:24:02,280 --> 01:24:05,240
Speaker 3: sitting there watching and thinking this is great. Now, I'm like,

1585
01:24:05,640 --> 01:24:08,240
Speaker 3: how was I not appalled by this in that time phrase?

1586
01:24:08,479 --> 01:24:10,519
Speaker 2: That's a really good point though. It's a group thought, right,

1587
01:24:10,560 --> 01:24:12,240
Speaker 2: and I thought that was kind of tricky of her too.

1588
01:24:12,280 --> 01:24:14,360
Speaker 2: She's like, well, you guys loved it and made me

1589
01:24:14,439 --> 01:24:17,479
Speaker 2: do it. Now, you know that was like all right, Tyra,

1590
01:24:17,600 --> 01:24:19,840
Speaker 2: that's a bit much. But you know those were those

1591
01:24:19,960 --> 01:24:22,800
Speaker 2: days where it was like shock TV, right, But it's

1592
01:24:22,920 --> 01:24:25,599
Speaker 2: like that was getting put out. It's not like our

1593
01:24:25,640 --> 01:24:27,559
Speaker 2: fall for watching what you're putting out.

1594
01:24:27,960 --> 01:24:31,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was surprised that I actually really did think

1595
01:24:31,360 --> 01:24:33,760
Speaker 3: the show might have helped some of the models, like,

1596
01:24:34,120 --> 01:24:38,200
Speaker 3: you know, get some load career or something positive.

1597
01:24:38,200 --> 01:24:38,760
Speaker 2: Would come out.

1598
01:24:38,960 --> 01:24:41,800
Speaker 3: I was surprised to hear that basically, by being on

1599
01:24:41,840 --> 01:24:44,920
Speaker 3: that show, you have now ruined your modeling career because

1600
01:24:45,240 --> 01:24:48,400
Speaker 3: no one wants a reality star. The photos, I was like, oh,

1601
01:24:48,439 --> 01:24:50,759
Speaker 3: you've got these great book books now to carry around.

1602
01:24:50,920 --> 01:24:53,760
Speaker 3: These are horrible photos that are only good for television,

1603
01:24:53,920 --> 01:24:55,160
Speaker 3: so right.

1604
01:24:55,000 --> 01:24:58,120
Speaker 2: They're not editorial in any way. You're cutting your hair

1605
01:24:58,160 --> 01:25:00,479
Speaker 2: and doing weird things that maybe would only prevent you

1606
01:25:00,520 --> 01:25:02,600
Speaker 2: from work in the immediate but like, also, it's not

1607
01:25:02,640 --> 01:25:03,519
Speaker 2: a good look on the show.

1608
01:25:03,600 --> 01:25:05,320
Speaker 3: And then they throw them right back in their lives

1609
01:25:05,360 --> 01:25:07,360
Speaker 3: and like, okay, bye, thanks for everything you did, we

1610
01:25:07,400 --> 01:25:09,640
Speaker 3: don't need you anymore. It was a little disturbing to

1611
01:25:09,960 --> 01:25:11,400
Speaker 3: see a lot of it, but I watched it.

1612
01:25:11,439 --> 01:25:13,080
Speaker 2: I thought it was just really strange, and I hope

1613
01:25:13,080 --> 01:25:15,120
Speaker 2: I'm not spoiling this and we won't say too much,

1614
01:25:15,160 --> 01:25:16,640
Speaker 2: but you know, after watching all of it, at the

1615
01:25:16,720 --> 01:25:19,800
Speaker 2: very end, she's like and guess what, and then kind

1616
01:25:19,800 --> 01:25:22,080
Speaker 2: of it's like a tease for her next show. I

1617
01:25:22,120 --> 01:25:23,559
Speaker 2: was like, oh, I thought we were watching like an

1618
01:25:23,560 --> 01:25:27,559
Speaker 2: expose that's breaking down kind of in retrospects with some

1619
01:25:27,760 --> 01:25:30,160
Speaker 2: kindness and grace looking back. That was a little off.

1620
01:25:30,280 --> 01:25:33,240
Speaker 2: No it seems like she did not know what show

1621
01:25:33,320 --> 01:25:35,840
Speaker 2: she was being interviewed for, like she was going to

1622
01:25:35,880 --> 01:25:38,760
Speaker 2: get interviewed for a different documentary altogether. She was like

1623
01:25:38,800 --> 01:25:41,120
Speaker 2: promoting next season. Like it was like, we just.

1624
01:25:41,080 --> 01:25:46,000
Speaker 5: Watched you potentially really decimated people's lives and them on television.

1625
01:25:46,200 --> 01:25:50,800
Speaker 5: Horrible our collective and ps I was right there with taha.

1626
01:25:50,840 --> 01:25:52,400
Speaker 4: It was appointment TV.

1627
01:25:52,680 --> 01:25:55,000
Speaker 2: So we all did it.

1628
01:25:55,960 --> 01:25:57,640
Speaker 4: We all ate it up.

1629
01:25:57,720 --> 01:25:58,360
Speaker 2: I ate it up.

1630
01:25:58,680 --> 01:26:01,599
Speaker 3: Yeah, And to your point, I think that Ken Mock

1631
01:26:01,840 --> 01:26:05,080
Speaker 3: and the three guys they were producing or they were

1632
01:26:05,120 --> 01:26:07,160
Speaker 3: working on this dock with one idea. I think she

1633
01:26:07,280 --> 01:26:09,080
Speaker 3: came there with the sole idea of like, I've got

1634
01:26:09,080 --> 01:26:10,800
Speaker 3: the next top model coming out, so I'm here to

1635
01:26:10,840 --> 01:26:11,280
Speaker 3: promote it.

1636
01:26:11,320 --> 01:26:14,679
Speaker 2: But so they kind of she didn't even remember their names.

1637
01:26:14,720 --> 01:26:17,160
Speaker 2: Like time. You know people who like this is maybe

1638
01:26:17,280 --> 01:26:20,640
Speaker 2: one of the more significant events in their lives, you know,

1639
01:26:20,880 --> 01:26:23,800
Speaker 2: both in an exciting way, probably in some ways, and

1640
01:26:23,840 --> 01:26:26,439
Speaker 2: maybe in a traumatic way like this is probably holding

1641
01:26:26,479 --> 01:26:30,040
Speaker 2: so much space and then it's like the person's remind me,

1642
01:26:30,400 --> 01:26:31,160
Speaker 2: Yeah it's sad.

1643
01:26:31,439 --> 01:26:34,679
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's so disappointing, but very interesting, definitely an interesting

1644
01:26:34,680 --> 01:26:37,679
Speaker 6: glimpse into kind of that time period as someone who

1645
01:26:37,960 --> 01:26:42,240
Speaker 6: only experienced it as a child in media. But it's

1646
01:26:42,280 --> 01:26:44,360
Speaker 6: really something that I was thinking about. I don't know,

1647
01:26:44,360 --> 01:26:47,840
Speaker 6: this might be a hot take. Is I feel like,

1648
01:26:48,880 --> 01:26:51,519
Speaker 6: although we feel like the culture has shifted so much,

1649
01:26:52,360 --> 01:26:56,080
Speaker 6: a lot of the early two thousands beauty standards are

1650
01:26:56,160 --> 01:26:59,560
Speaker 6: coming back in a big way. It's not so I

1651
01:27:00,760 --> 01:27:03,960
Speaker 6: feel like there was some progress that was made in

1652
01:27:04,000 --> 01:27:07,600
Speaker 6: like the twenty tensh in terms of like body diversity

1653
01:27:07,640 --> 01:27:12,800
Speaker 6: and body and beauty standards, and at least in my

1654
01:27:12,880 --> 01:27:15,439
Speaker 6: anecdotal experience in the past, I want to say, maybe

1655
01:27:15,479 --> 01:27:18,880
Speaker 6: five years that's all kind of started to backtrack a

1656
01:27:18,880 --> 01:27:19,759
Speaker 6: little bit, which.

1657
01:27:19,640 --> 01:27:22,519
Speaker 3: Is just kind of scary me, like in the in

1658
01:27:22,560 --> 01:27:26,280
Speaker 3: real life, or in the modeling industry and in advertising or.

1659
01:27:26,880 --> 01:27:29,799
Speaker 6: In everything just in our culture. Would you agree with Corney?

1660
01:27:30,120 --> 01:27:33,439
Speaker 5: I agree with you actually completely, And I think a

1661
01:27:33,439 --> 01:27:36,880
Speaker 5: lot of it has arise and listen, this is glp

1662
01:27:37,040 --> 01:27:38,400
Speaker 5: ones and ozembic, et cetera.

1663
01:27:38,479 --> 01:27:40,400
Speaker 4: I think that has to do it.

1664
01:27:40,920 --> 01:27:41,519
Speaker 2: That's a point.

1665
01:27:41,520 --> 01:27:45,360
Speaker 5: It is a wonderful breakthrough for people who you know,

1666
01:27:46,000 --> 01:27:49,760
Speaker 5: need that. But I do think I have absolutely been

1667
01:27:49,800 --> 01:27:54,960
Speaker 5: witnessing just culture shifting back eva, So I do agree

1668
01:27:55,120 --> 01:27:55,479
Speaker 5: to not.

1669
01:27:55,560 --> 01:27:58,960
Speaker 2: Bring the low rise genes back, please? No low rise?

1670
01:27:59,280 --> 01:28:05,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, crop tops everybody's wearing them now, right.

1671
01:28:05,840 --> 01:28:06,520
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1672
01:28:06,560 --> 01:28:09,800
Speaker 6: So it's a it's a little disheartening because I don't know,

1673
01:28:09,840 --> 01:28:11,600
Speaker 6: I like to think that we've come so far, but

1674
01:28:11,720 --> 01:28:14,000
Speaker 6: it just feels like we can slip back so easily.

1675
01:28:14,400 --> 01:28:16,959
Speaker 6: But maybe it can kind of serve as a reminder

1676
01:28:17,000 --> 01:28:19,599
Speaker 6: as okay, yeah, record, scratch and.

1677
01:28:19,560 --> 01:28:21,679
Speaker 2: Blow the role because we don't want to go down

1678
01:28:21,720 --> 01:28:25,439
Speaker 2: that path again. Yeah. Absolutely, But it's the same.

1679
01:28:25,479 --> 01:28:27,360
Speaker 5: And I feel like I bring up history all the time,

1680
01:28:27,400 --> 01:28:29,840
Speaker 5: like you know, some old man sitting in a cabin.

1681
01:28:29,960 --> 01:28:34,719
Speaker 5: But it's it's literally if you just look at times different,

1682
01:28:34,920 --> 01:28:40,479
Speaker 5: it's it's so cyclical for women, particularly a curvy body,

1683
01:28:40,920 --> 01:28:43,080
Speaker 5: a twig, you know, stick thin body.

1684
01:28:43,120 --> 01:28:46,120
Speaker 4: It just it is absolutely cyclical. You can look at

1685
01:28:46,120 --> 01:28:46,559
Speaker 4: it through.

1686
01:28:46,880 --> 01:28:49,800
Speaker 2: But funny enough, one of the reasons that maybe the

1687
01:28:49,840 --> 01:28:52,839
Speaker 2: body type changed a little bit was from the winner

1688
01:28:53,360 --> 01:28:57,360
Speaker 2: of Top Model. Oh this all full circle? What's the

1689
01:28:57,360 --> 01:28:59,759
Speaker 2: model plus sized model?

1690
01:29:01,360 --> 01:29:04,280
Speaker 4: Whitney?

1691
01:29:03,400 --> 01:29:06,680
Speaker 2: No? No, isn't there one person though? And later at

1692
01:29:06,680 --> 01:29:08,880
Speaker 2: some point that went on to do something. Yeah, there

1693
01:29:08,920 --> 01:29:10,400
Speaker 2: was a very popular.

1694
01:29:11,000 --> 01:29:14,800
Speaker 5: So beautiful Thompson. She was the first and only one

1695
01:29:14,840 --> 01:29:15,360
Speaker 5: to win.

1696
01:29:15,560 --> 01:29:18,160
Speaker 2: I don't think she won. I don't think she won.

1697
01:29:19,360 --> 01:29:22,639
Speaker 3: This is this is another like fatausy model I think

1698
01:29:22,640 --> 01:29:24,479
Speaker 3: you might be thinking of. But but to your point,

1699
01:29:24,560 --> 01:29:27,200
Speaker 3: like I do think there was a world where the

1700
01:29:27,240 --> 01:29:30,600
Speaker 3: plus side plus size models were kind of on an

1701
01:29:30,680 --> 01:29:33,280
Speaker 3: upswing and it was becoming more mainstream.

1702
01:29:33,600 --> 01:29:35,479
Speaker 2: Well, and that's what's funny too, because it's funny you

1703
01:29:35,600 --> 01:29:38,360
Speaker 2: say plus size, because then they started calling it plus

1704
01:29:38,360 --> 01:29:40,880
Speaker 2: size and we did a backstep backward. No, she was

1705
01:29:41,080 --> 01:29:45,120
Speaker 2: just like a regular, beautiful, normal sized woman at a

1706
01:29:45,200 --> 01:29:48,840
Speaker 2: regular normal size, not you know, quadruple zero. Again, no

1707
01:29:49,200 --> 01:29:52,240
Speaker 2: offense if that's her natural body type. But you know,

1708
01:29:52,400 --> 01:29:53,240
Speaker 2: what is her name? We have?

1709
01:29:53,520 --> 01:29:58,240
Speaker 4: This is killing Kara Jones, I think to Kara.

1710
01:29:58,360 --> 01:30:02,320
Speaker 2: No, I'm thinking of she's like a brown hair, really beautiful.

1711
01:30:02,680 --> 01:30:04,640
Speaker 2: I will think of it. I'm sorry. This game is

1712
01:30:04,720 --> 01:30:07,400
Speaker 2: terrible though without it, and I think she was on

1713
01:30:07,520 --> 01:30:10,000
Speaker 2: top model and then went on to become a very

1714
01:30:10,240 --> 01:30:14,719
Speaker 2: established one of the biggest plus size models. Actually, Graham,

1715
01:30:15,080 --> 01:30:16,880
Speaker 2: Ashley Graham, is who I'm thinking of. Am I wrong?

1716
01:30:17,160 --> 01:30:18,680
Speaker 3: I'm thinking of Ashley Graham. That's the one.

1717
01:30:18,960 --> 01:30:23,479
Speaker 5: So I was thinking of too, more recent like after

1718
01:30:23,720 --> 01:30:26,200
Speaker 5: But yeah, she I mean, she's something to look at,

1719
01:30:26,520 --> 01:30:27,080
Speaker 5: Like we.

1720
01:30:27,080 --> 01:30:29,840
Speaker 2: Call her plus ize, why can't we call her just

1721
01:30:29,880 --> 01:30:31,679
Speaker 2: a woman? And I hated that always.

1722
01:30:31,720 --> 01:30:33,960
Speaker 3: Also, yeah, I never liked that term. I mean, and

1723
01:30:34,000 --> 01:30:36,439
Speaker 3: I just used it, but it became such a no

1724
01:30:36,560 --> 01:30:36,960
Speaker 3: that's what.

1725
01:30:36,880 --> 01:30:39,280
Speaker 2: She was known as. Yeah, it became like a tag.

1726
01:30:39,479 --> 01:30:42,360
Speaker 3: But I'm glad to hear from Ava that maybe that's

1727
01:30:42,080 --> 01:30:44,880
Speaker 3: it's shifting because I feel like I see the opposite a.

1728
01:30:44,920 --> 01:30:45,439
Speaker 2: Little bit more.

1729
01:30:45,479 --> 01:30:47,280
Speaker 3: I'm like, oh wow, I see a lot more people

1730
01:30:47,360 --> 01:30:50,800
Speaker 3: comfortable in their skin wearing crop tops, like oh, you

1731
01:30:51,000 --> 01:31:00,280
Speaker 3: are wearing a crop top and.

1732
01:30:56,880 --> 01:30:57,679
Speaker 2: My foot in my mouth.

1733
01:30:58,320 --> 01:31:05,160
Speaker 5: But anyway, you're ready, so great, just show that face

1734
01:31:05,240 --> 01:31:06,280
Speaker 5: in the super market.

1735
01:31:06,320 --> 01:31:12,080
Speaker 2: You're so funny. But like if we were TAHA and

1736
01:31:12,240 --> 01:31:14,080
Speaker 2: we used to work together back in the day, you

1737
01:31:14,160 --> 01:31:16,400
Speaker 2: come into the office back when we all were like,

1738
01:31:16,479 --> 01:31:19,479
Speaker 2: you know, cubicles, and he'd be like, you.

1739
01:31:19,439 --> 01:31:20,479
Speaker 8: Know, did you out?

1740
01:31:20,840 --> 01:31:22,960
Speaker 2: No matter what it was, even if it was nothing

1741
01:31:23,280 --> 01:31:26,439
Speaker 2: or if it was dressing, Oh look at you. It

1742
01:31:26,479 --> 01:31:27,280
Speaker 2: always felt good.

1743
01:31:28,800 --> 01:31:31,080
Speaker 3: Well, those are some good dms. And this has been

1744
01:31:31,240 --> 01:31:32,519
Speaker 3: such a fun show tonight.

1745
01:31:32,720 --> 01:31:35,120
Speaker 2: You got what a perfect show. Great job, av.

1746
01:31:36,760 --> 01:31:39,000
Speaker 6: Light a little bit among all this, so it's good

1747
01:31:39,000 --> 01:31:41,000
Speaker 6: to have a lighter show once in a while. But

1748
01:31:41,080 --> 01:31:43,000
Speaker 6: we're going to be back to the heavy stuff tomorrow.

1749
01:31:43,120 --> 01:31:46,080
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, back to it tomorrow, but maybe not have

1750
01:31:46,080 --> 01:31:47,679
Speaker 2: a hopeful week. Well for sure.

1751
01:31:47,760 --> 01:31:50,719
Speaker 3: Tomorrow we have to talk about Bill Clinton testifying under

1752
01:31:50,800 --> 01:31:54,320
Speaker 3: US in the Epstein investigation, and also we're bringing back

1753
01:31:54,360 --> 01:31:56,240
Speaker 3: True Crime and Chill, so we're going to talk a

1754
01:31:56,240 --> 01:31:58,360
Speaker 3: little bit about Ted Bundy some more. So thank you

1755
01:31:58,360 --> 01:32:00,599
Speaker 3: for that reminder. So it's going to be a good one.

1756
01:32:00,720 --> 01:32:01,679
Speaker 3: So I'm excited.

1757
01:32:01,720 --> 01:32:04,599
Speaker 2: Thanks everybody. This was a fun I have a great

1758
01:32:04,680 --> 01:32:06,840
Speaker 2: night everybody, and I have a great start to a week.

1759
01:32:06,880 --> 01:32:18,360
Speaker 2: Good night, stay say bye bye.