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Speaker 1: Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camray.

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Speaker 1: It's ready. Are you welcome to stuff mom never told you?

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Speaker 1: From house Stuff works dot Com. Hey, welco to the podcast.

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Speaker 1: This is Molly and I'm Kristen. Kristen. Lots of my

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Speaker 1: friends are having babies these days. Fine too, And I

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Speaker 1: go and visit the babies and they're cute, they're fun kind.

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Speaker 1: I'm not really they can't talk to you, and I'm

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Speaker 1: a very verbal person and I don't know what to

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Speaker 1: do when something can't talk back to me, which I

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Speaker 1: think is one way I know that I am not

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Speaker 1: ready to have a child. Yeah, clearly, I think children

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Speaker 1: are little robots sent to destroy us, and that just

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Speaker 1: is a good sign that I'm not ready for motherhood.

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Speaker 1: Whoa Molly, before we start getting in a lot of

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Speaker 1: hate mail for your AUNTI baby ways. I'm not an

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Speaker 1: anti baby for other people, just for myself. But that

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Speaker 1: doesn't mean in the future I won't change my mind. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And you know what, Molly, if you hold out long

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Speaker 1: enough in the future, you're gonna have some zaney ways

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Speaker 1: of making babies. I know this was um. I researched

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Speaker 1: all the ways in which people might have children in

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Speaker 1: the future, and it made me feel a lot better

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Speaker 1: about being sort of anti baby for myself right now. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because what because basically science is going to figure out

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Speaker 1: how women can have and men can have exactly the

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Speaker 1: kind of baby they want, exactly when they want it.

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Speaker 1: It's gonna be like burger King. Basically, Yeah, it wasn't

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Speaker 1: there a woman I want to say, in Slovenia, oh

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Speaker 1: In I think two thousand five, gave birth to a

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Speaker 1: child at sixty six. I want to say, highly controversial, right,

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Speaker 1: but I think in the future, in the future, it

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Speaker 1: will be less controversial because there's just gonna be so

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Speaker 1: much science, so much science. Well, science and babies really

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Speaker 1: got off to a great start in uh in nineteen

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Speaker 1: seventy eight when Louise Brown a k a. The first

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Speaker 1: test tube baby was warm and she basically she was

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Speaker 1: the first child born via and vit your fertilization, and

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Speaker 1: now vit your fertilization keeps moving forward to the point

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Speaker 1: that we have something called octomom and the culture now

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Speaker 1: and Suleiman I prefer to call her octo mom um,

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Speaker 1: a woman who I think it recently came out that

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Speaker 1: basically she was storing embryos. She didn't want to pay

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Speaker 1: anymore for the storage, so she basically just said, we'll

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Speaker 1: put him in me and let's see what happens. Um.

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Speaker 1: That's according to The New York Times. I don't want

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Speaker 1: to I'm not trying to make a judgment on octo mom,

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Speaker 1: but I think that the judgment that our society puts

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Speaker 1: on her shows that the advances that will discuss in

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Speaker 1: this article mean that, Um, you know, there are a

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Speaker 1: lot of questions to be asked about fertility, about woman's

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Speaker 1: right to have a child, a man's right to have

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Speaker 1: a child, and how far science should be allowed to

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Speaker 1: be involved in that process. Yeah, it comes down to

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Speaker 1: this little list question that that often pops up in

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Speaker 1: science and technology of are we playing God with with

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Speaker 1: with all of this this fertility technology. And and the

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Speaker 1: first thing I think we should talk about is something

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Speaker 1: called preimplantation genetic diagnosis. And this has been around in

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Speaker 1: some fertility clinics since the nineteen nineties, but it might

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Speaker 1: become a lot more common in the future. And this

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Speaker 1: is also known as embryo screening, and basically it takes

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Speaker 1: a three day embryo and pulls out one of its

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Speaker 1: cells to test for genetic markers of disease. So basically

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Speaker 1: you can pre screen the six silled embryo to see

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Speaker 1: whether or not it's UH, it has the potential to

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Speaker 1: develop life threatening diseases down the road. Right there was

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Speaker 1: maybe more recently that they called the first breast cancer

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Speaker 1: free baby because they knew that it didn't have the markers,

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Speaker 1: the genetic markers for breast cancer. Now already you can

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Speaker 1: start to ask questions about um environmental factors and whether

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Speaker 1: that's already to plan to this child's life. But I

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Speaker 1: think that it's hard not to argue with parents who

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Speaker 1: want to make sure that the best of their ability,

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Speaker 1: that their children will never have to face some awful

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Speaker 1: genetic disease. And right now, while it is legal in

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Speaker 1: the US, I think we should also note that UH

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Speaker 1: that this embryo screening is still illegal in the UK,

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Speaker 1: India and China. UM. But the thing about preimplantation genetic diagnosis, well,

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Speaker 1: it seems like a good idea. You are pre screening

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Speaker 1: the child for UH, for sickness and disease. No one

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Speaker 1: wants their child to develop cancer or something terrible like that.

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Speaker 1: But is this the first step towards what is commonly

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Speaker 1: referred to as designer babies, right, because once you figure

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Speaker 1: out how to check for the genetic disease is you

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Speaker 1: can start to check for anything that's controlled by genetics.

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Speaker 1: If you want, uh, blonde hair, blue eyed baby, you

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Speaker 1: can look at the genetic markers for that. You can

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Speaker 1: look at the genetic markers for gender. Which is one

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Speaker 1: reason why pg D has been outlawed as you're mentioning

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Speaker 1: in the United Kingdom, Indian China, because people think that

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Speaker 1: it's not right that you can walk into a fortellity

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Speaker 1: clinic and say, find me an embryo that's gonna look

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Speaker 1: like this and behave like this. Well, and also there

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Speaker 1: is a chance of losing genetic diversity because if everybody

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Speaker 1: starts going in and wearing the same types of perfect

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Speaker 1: little babies, then uh, the diversity is going to fade

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Speaker 1: out over time. And then there's also the issue of

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Speaker 1: something called negative enhancement, which would be if a parents

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Speaker 1: selected for um a trait such as dwarfism or um

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Speaker 1: what we might consider more of a of a negative

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Speaker 1: trait genetic traite, right, And that's another one of these

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Speaker 1: big ethics questions that people have to grapple with when

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Speaker 1: you think about jowing of the futures. Who's going to

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Speaker 1: decide what's a negative enhancement or what's a perfectly reasonable

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Speaker 1: thing to ask for. Because let's say to deaf people

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Speaker 1: who are married walk into a fertility clinic and say

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Speaker 1: that they want a deaf child because they know that

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Speaker 1: being deaf has this sort of cultural legacy. They want

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Speaker 1: the child to be able to communicate within their culture

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Speaker 1: and their social circle. Who's going to be the one

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Speaker 1: that says, you know, deafness isn't something we're gonna select.

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Speaker 1: I mean, who are we to say it's a handicap?

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Speaker 1: So that's an issue that's going to come up um

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Speaker 1: And there was a survey recently conducted by the New

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Speaker 1: York University School of met us in which shows that

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Speaker 1: right now in the United States, people are generally on

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Speaker 1: board with using it to avoid things that you know,

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Speaker 1: we can pretty much say are bad, like retardation, cancer,

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Speaker 1: other mitochondrial diseases. But now ten percent of people think

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Speaker 1: that it's acceptable to figure out, um if your baby

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Speaker 1: will have any athletic ability in the future. People think

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Speaker 1: it's okay to see if you can have the embryo

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Speaker 1: with improved intelligence, and ten percent want to make sure

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Speaker 1: they can have, you know, a nice tall child in

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Speaker 1: the future. So maybe short people who are slightly dumb

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Speaker 1: and can't play basketball, they'll they won't exist in the future. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think it's gonna be really I wish I could

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Speaker 1: look into a little uh, look into a crystal ball

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Speaker 1: and see, you know, twenty years from now, how far

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Speaker 1: this you know quote designer baby trend will have gone,

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Speaker 1: and how the laws are going to change, because like

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Speaker 1: you said, I mean, is there how could you ever

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Speaker 1: legislate against, you know, selecting for certain traits, because that

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Speaker 1: just seems inherently wrong. Um. But Molly. One other actor

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Speaker 1: or with reproductive technology has to do with with age,

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Speaker 1: with whether or not like women can get pregnant if

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Speaker 1: they have um if their their wombs are up to

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Speaker 1: the task, either because of biological problems or because of

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Speaker 1: age limitations with things like amnopoles um. But there might

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Speaker 1: come a day when children can be borne from artificial

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Speaker 1: wounds that are hooked up to something called a placent

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Speaker 1: a machine. Right, and you know it sounds very science fiction,

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Speaker 1: But there's a woman named hun Chin Lieu of Cornell University,

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Speaker 1: who essentially has grown artificial wombs using human tissue. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: she basically began growing sheets of endometrial tissue and UH,

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Speaker 1: and then she was able from that to construct a

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Speaker 1: freestanding uterus UH. And then when she implanted the donated

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Speaker 1: human embryos into I guess the placenta machine, they began

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Speaker 1: growing in the tissue, much like they would have in

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Speaker 1: a woman's womb. But because of UH ethics laws, the

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Speaker 1: embryos had to be removed before they could come to term, right,

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Speaker 1: so she turned to mice because no one really seems

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Speaker 1: to care about mice. Unfortunately, UM put mouse embrios in

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Speaker 1: this artificial boom and they almost made it to full term,

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Speaker 1: except they were deformed. So I'm not trying We're not

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Speaker 1: trying to suggest that any of these technologies are right

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Speaker 1: around the corner, but it's definitely something that ethicis are

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Speaker 1: already grappling with. Another thing that has been UH scientifically

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Speaker 1: and artificially made sperm and eggs. Yeah. In two thousand nine,

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Speaker 1: researchers from Newcastle University in England and now so they

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Speaker 1: had created human sperm cells from embryonic tissue um and

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Speaker 1: while the fake sperm looked like the real deal in

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Speaker 1: terms of looks and actions, scientists think that sperm actually

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Speaker 1: needs a fifteen year time in some tests to develop

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Speaker 1: to become viable to fertilize and egg right, and manufactured

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Speaker 1: eggs may also be on the way. UM also entire embryos.

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Speaker 1: You know, you want to talk about a hilarious romantic

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Speaker 1: comedy movie, how about an embryo with three parents. Hey,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna sell that screenplay soon, but it's really Paltrow.

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Speaker 1: Let's say there's two parents who both have this genetic

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Speaker 1: marker for mitochondrial disease like cancer. What they can do

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Speaker 1: is take the parts from both of them, take out

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Speaker 1: that DNA that would cause a disease like that, and

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Speaker 1: put it into an embryo that will basically grow the

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Speaker 1: child's DNA four or the genetic markers for it. So

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Speaker 1: it's like you're outsourcing your mitochondrial production and Molly in

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Speaker 1: the future. I wonder how many time the future. In

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Speaker 1: the future, it might be possible for two men to

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Speaker 1: have a baby together without the help of a surrogate

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Speaker 1: because eggs can be made from male cells. How about that, right,

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Speaker 1: Because they've got both X and the Y chromosome, but

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Speaker 1: unfortunately sperm requires Y chromosome, so lesbian couple would still

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Speaker 1: have to rely on the help from male tissue. Right,

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Speaker 1: So the thinking goes that in the future, you could

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Speaker 1: have let's say, two men who get the DNA I'll

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Speaker 1: put together to make the artificial sperm and egg. They

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Speaker 1: put it in the artificial womb, grows it for nine months,

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Speaker 1: all of a sudden we got a baby. Now no

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Speaker 1: one knows, of course at this point what health problems

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Speaker 1: the baby could be at risk for by not coming

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Speaker 1: out the old fashioned way, but it does seem by

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Speaker 1: reading some of this stuff that having a baby um

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Speaker 1: just by having sex kind of would be on the

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Speaker 1: way out because you wouldn't be able to do any

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Speaker 1: of that genetic determination. And you know, you've got to

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Speaker 1: wonder if some people would want to carry a baby

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Speaker 1: when they can put it in the artificial bomb. So

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Speaker 1: the question really is, Molly for this episode is not

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Speaker 1: how we have children, but will sex become passe in

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Speaker 1: the future. I don't think sex wat would become past,

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Speaker 1: but sex to have a baby maybe, But whether this

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Speaker 1: baby technology pans out or not, Molly the fact of

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Speaker 1: the matter is the family dynamics in our society really

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Speaker 1: are changing in general, because take for instance, the fact

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Speaker 1: that from the birth rate for women forty five and over,

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Speaker 1: according to the CDC, more than doubled. Right, there's been

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Speaker 1: this big trend towards um older parenting in general. Basically

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Speaker 1: people waiting until later in life, once they're more financially secure,

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Speaker 1: a little more you know, emotionally and professionally stable, they

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Speaker 1: were really committed for the long haul, then going about

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Speaker 1: having children instead of doing it early in life. Right.

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Speaker 1: I think that no matter what happens in the future,

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Speaker 1: our vision of what a family looks like, it is

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Speaker 1: already changing. And there have been a few studies about

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Speaker 1: the effects of having children later in life. We found

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Speaker 1: two books, ones called Last Chance Children, which looks at

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Speaker 1: twenty two children who were raised by older parents UM

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Speaker 1: and interviewed them when they were adults, and of those adults,

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Speaker 1: only two of the two would want to have their

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Speaker 1: own children later in life, and the rest of them

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Speaker 1: basically just complained a lot about how their parents didn't

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Speaker 1: have the energy to play with them. Yeah, there's just

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Speaker 1: the whole argument of well, if you have a child

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Speaker 1: when you are, say forty five fifty years old, then

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Speaker 1: you know, if your child is in your teens and

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Speaker 1: you're getting older, is your child gonna end up having

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Speaker 1: to basically parent you and take care of you and

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Speaker 1: you're in your old age and basically robbed those children

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Speaker 1: of their young, carefree adolescent years. But really, is there

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Speaker 1: any adolescent that that lifest their parents? Well? Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean I did. Yeah, I mean I think yeah, with

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Speaker 1: the point you're trying to make is the teen years

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Speaker 1: are going to be probably a little rocky at some

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Speaker 1: point for any any family, no member, no matter the

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Speaker 1: age of the parents. Um. But the other book that

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Speaker 1: we mentioned that we found was Children of Parents Over

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Speaker 1: thirty five. Andrew el Yarrow had a much bigger pool,

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Speaker 1: six or fifty people who who answered questionnaires about what

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Speaker 1: it meant to grow up with older parents, And some

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Speaker 1: of them were bitter about it the way that the

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Speaker 1: other ones were. Some of them just talked about how

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Speaker 1: great it was to have, you know, a parent who

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Speaker 1: wasn't hovering, was was more emotionally mature, can provide that stability.

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Speaker 1: So I don't think that there's any right or wrong

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Speaker 1: way to do it, but I think that one interesting

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Speaker 1: thing we're finding is that we tend to think that

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Speaker 1: men are just these all powerful beings that can have

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Speaker 1: babies whenever they want. They don't have this biological clock

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Speaker 1: that ticks, and it's really women who benefit from these

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Speaker 1: advances in reproductive technology. But it's important to note, fellows,

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Speaker 1: that you too have a bit of a biological clock. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: sperm have have their own shelf life as well, it seems.

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Speaker 1: And this was from an article that we found in

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Speaker 1: a in the New York New York Times magazine from

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Speaker 1: earlier this year, and it said that researchers from the

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Speaker 1: University of Queensland found that children born to older fathers

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Speaker 1: have on average lower scores on testsa intelligence than those

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Speaker 1: born to younger dads. And that was from a pool

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Speaker 1: of thirty three thousand American children. And in addition, British

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Speaker 1: and Swedish researchers have also calculated that risk that the

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Speaker 1: risk of schizophrenia begins to rise for those whose fathers

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Speaker 1: were over thirty when their babies were born. Another Swedish

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Speaker 1: study has also found at the risk of bipolar disorder

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Speaker 1: and children begins to increase when fathers are older than

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Speaker 1: twenty nine and it's highest if they're older than five.

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Speaker 1: So it's kind of added an interesting dimension to this

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Speaker 1: whole how old is to hold the old who have

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Speaker 1: a baby question? Because a lot of times we immediately

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Speaker 1: think of women, but it does appear that that men

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Speaker 1: now have an impact as well. So it seems that

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Speaker 1: they're always risks, is what I'm learning from this christ

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Speaker 1: And as that, um, you know, it doesn't seem like

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Speaker 1: there's any perfect asia have a baby, and I think

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Speaker 1: that will only continue to change in the future. That

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Speaker 1: doesn't mean the ethicis don't want to figure out how

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Speaker 1: to draw the line in the sand, because I mean,

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Speaker 1: we are talking about older parents, but it's perfectly conceivable

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Speaker 1: that if there was an artificial womb technology that some

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Speaker 1: ten year old wouldn't march into of fertility clinic and

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Speaker 1: be like, well, I want a baby too. I think

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Speaker 1: I think the concern is towards the other end of

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Speaker 1: the spectrum. Like with that I said Slovenian, it's actually

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Speaker 1: Romanian woman who who had the child by ivf at

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Speaker 1: A at sixty six. Right so right now, I think

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Speaker 1: the American society reproductive medicine would like clinics to turn

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Speaker 1: away people who are past menopause, because they say that

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Speaker 1: if your body can no longer do it, then perhaps

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Speaker 1: you shouldn't be helped along by science. Yeah, but like

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Speaker 1: we were talking at the being in the podcast, there's

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Speaker 1: so much science out there. Yeah, we're living longer, that's right. So,

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Speaker 1: how we have children in the future. Maybe it'll be

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Speaker 1: placenta machines. Maybe it will be artificial eggs made from

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Speaker 1: males cells. Maybe it will be from rainbows. Maybe we

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Speaker 1: really will have robot children. And I won't just think

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Speaker 1: that babies are like robots. You seem a little comforted

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Speaker 1: by that thought, Molly, A little bit that I can

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Speaker 1: understand that I write my head around. Well, guys, I

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Speaker 1: could programmed to do what I want. Sorry, I don't

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Speaker 1: mean to call babies. It's that you're never babysitting for me, Molly.

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Speaker 1: I think I just decided if I ever had a child. Uh, well,

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Speaker 1: you guys, if you have anything, it's about children of

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Speaker 1: the future. How old is too old to have a

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Speaker 1: baby and all that good stuff. Please send us an

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Speaker 1: email at mom stuff at how stuff works dot com.

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Speaker 1: And speaking of which, I think we got a little

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Speaker 1: bit of listener mail Molly, and this listener mail comes

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Speaker 1: from the episode we did on what is the difference

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Speaker 1: between marriage and civil union? And this first email I

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Speaker 1: have comes from Virginia and she says, I have to

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Speaker 1: say it really irritates me when people use the slippery

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Speaker 1: slope argument, i e. People who want to marry children, horses, cars,

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Speaker 1: et cetera. Now I'm not a lawyer, but I think

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Speaker 1: people who use that argument are forgetting one very important thing,

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Speaker 1: the ability to give consent. Can a child consent to

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Speaker 1: marriage legally? No? Can a horse consent to marriage no?

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Speaker 1: Can a car consent to marriage no? Therefore, it's an

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Speaker 1: entirely ridiculous argument. My personal opinion is that if people,

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Speaker 1: regardless of their sexuality you want to get married, they

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Speaker 1: should all be REQUI are to have a civil ceremony,

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Speaker 1: even the religious people, which would grant all the essential

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Speaker 1: rights of marriage as we understand it. Then if people

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Speaker 1: want to have a religious ceremony in addition to the

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Speaker 1: civil ceremony, then that's their decision. If people decide not

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Speaker 1: to have a religious ceremony on top of their civil ceremony,

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Speaker 1: then they still have all the rights that come with

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Speaker 1: being married. Thanks for putting the information out there. And

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Speaker 1: thank you Virginia for writing in and I would like

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Speaker 1: to an email from Jillian. She writes, we started the

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Speaker 1: podcast talking about main selection and the state decision to

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Speaker 1: appeal same sex marriage. While this saddens me, I'm a

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Speaker 1: little irritated with the mass media's response to this. Mains

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Speaker 1: election has been a lead story, with many news anchor

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Speaker 1: stating same sex marriage has been denied by every state

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Speaker 1: in which it was brought to a vote. However, what

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Speaker 1: these networks from neglecting to mention is the passing of

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Speaker 1: Referendum seventy one in Washington State. People have been calling

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Speaker 1: it that everything but marriage law. As a Seattle citizen,

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Speaker 1: I was very happy that ref some do I passed,

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Speaker 1: but just may that it has not been receiving any

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Speaker 1: response in the press. It's a pretty close fight, but

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Speaker 1: the voters of Washington State did not beat it down.

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Speaker 1: I feel it as a step in the right direct action.

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Speaker 1: Referendum se many one is about more than just same

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Speaker 1: sex partnership. Well so it cures rights for same sex couples,

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Speaker 1: it also provides rights to domestic partners for all types,

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Speaker 1: including senior citizens. Anyway, I feel like referendum somebody wants

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Speaker 1: a great stepping stone to equal rights for all and

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Speaker 1: perhaps of other states. But this kind of legislation on

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Speaker 1: a ballot citizens would have an easier time accepting domestic

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Speaker 1: partnerships of all stripes. Well. And to wrap things up,

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Speaker 1: I've got an email from Ryan from Chicago. He says,

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Speaker 1: I feel you may have missed some important facts over

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Speaker 1: why the LBGT community does not just settle for civil

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Speaker 1: unions and or domestic partnerships. While many believe these to

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Speaker 1: be equal with regards to write and benefits to marriage,

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Speaker 1: the facts simply do not support that in most states.

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Speaker 1: While getting my BA, I remember hearing one of my

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Speaker 1: professors speak on the difficulties of him and his partner

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Speaker 1: um in obtaining his status, including psychological evaluations, mounds of

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Speaker 1: paperwork and weak slash, months of verification, etcetera. It's also

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Speaker 1: been pretty well researched. The marriage, while being a religious institution,

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Speaker 1: still provide it's many more benefits than evil even a

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Speaker 1: civil union, and unfortunately, um why those rights sometimes fail.

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Speaker 1: I love the podcast and applaud you for bringing up

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Speaker 1: I just hope that you will mention some of these

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Speaker 1: things as well, since many people don't realize the inequalities

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Speaker 1: of marriage versus other types of unions, and why the

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Speaker 1: LGBT community shouldn't have to settle for separate but equal.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, Ryan, So. If you've got an opinion, it's

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Speaker 1: mom stuff at how stuff works dot com. You can

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Speaker 1: also check out our blog it's called how to stuff

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Speaker 1: and as always, if you want to learn about anything

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Speaker 1: we talk about, including shield or Not the future and

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Speaker 1: head on over to how stuff works dot com for

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Speaker 1: more on this and thousands of other topics. Because that

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Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com. Want more house stuff works,

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