Speaker 1: Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where we're scouring
Speaker 1: the Volleyball Championship Challenge brackets to see which of y'all
Speaker 1: slices we're looking up at and who we've got bragging
Speaker 1: rights over. It's Monday, December night. On today's show, I
Speaker 1: talked to Caroline Fitzgerald, CEO and founder of Goals Sports
Speaker 1: and host of the Business Case for Women's Sports podcast.
Speaker 1: We talk about the moment she knew she needed to
Speaker 1: start her own marketing and consultancy business for women's sports,
Speaker 1: what she's learned from connecting brands and leagues, and more.
Speaker 1: Plus a brick wall with a magic hand enters the
Speaker 1: Good Game Hall of Fame. It's all coming up right
Speaker 1: after this Welcome Back Slices meiche has got your need
Speaker 1: to know today, Take it away, Mesh.
Speaker 2: Thanks Sarah.
Speaker 3: In WNVA News on Friday, the Golden State Valkyrie selected
Speaker 3: eleven players in the league's first expansion draft since two
Speaker 3: thousand and eight. The draft was held at the San
Speaker 3: Francisco Museum of Modern Art in golfer Michelle Wee west
Speaker 3: Rapper E forty in former MMBA Golden State Warrior Baron
Speaker 3: Davis announced the picks at the podium. We'll link to
Speaker 3: the fullest of Hooper selected in our show notes. Head
Speaker 3: coach Natalie Nicasse told ESPN viewers before the selections were
Speaker 3: made that she wants her team to hang its hat
Speaker 3: on the defensive end and be composed of true competitors.
Speaker 3: If you take a look at the fullest of selections,
Speaker 3: the Valkyrie shows a lot of underrated glue players like
Speaker 3: twenty twenty four WNBA champ Kaylea Thornton, Monique Billings, and
Speaker 3: Temmy Fak Benley who fit.
Speaker 2: The bill perfectly.
Speaker 3: And there's one other important piece I want to note.
Speaker 3: The Valkyries did not select a player from the Seattle Storm. Now,
Speaker 3: in case you missed our brief rundown on how the
Speaker 3: draft worked, each of the twelve WNBA teams chose six
Speaker 3: players to protect, meaning Golden State could not select them
Speaker 3: in the draft. Now, we don't know officially who Seattle
Speaker 3: chose to protect, but I'd bet my car that two
Speaker 3: time WNBA League Champ Jewel Lloyd was in that mix.
Speaker 2: Just last week, though, Lloyd requested a trade.
Speaker 3: Out of Seattle following an investigation into claims of bullying
Speaker 3: and herne against the coaching staff. The investigation found no violations.
Speaker 3: Putting two and two together, it's possible to Storm and
Speaker 3: Valkyries could be in cahoots manufacturing a trade that would
Speaker 3: send Lloyd's south to the Bay for something in return,
Speaker 3: because if I were an exec, I wouldn't want to
Speaker 3: give her up for nothing in an expansion draft. Lloyd
Speaker 3: still has a year left on her contract with Seattle
Speaker 3: and is one of the highest paid players in the
Speaker 3: WNBA will keep you updated on how the Valkyrie's franchise
Speaker 3: and its roster evolve. In college soccer, the NCAA College
Speaker 3: Cup Championship is tonight. It all comes down to a
Speaker 3: battle of number two seeded ACC in state foes Wake
Speaker 3: Forest and UNC at seven pm Eastern on ESPNU and
Speaker 3: streaming on ESPN Plus. This is wake Forest's first National
Speaker 3: Championship match ever. In just their second College Cup appearance ever,
Speaker 3: the Demon Deacons will try to cap off a historic
Speaker 3: regular season. They became the first team in NCAA history
Speaker 3: to beat the top two teams in the country back
Speaker 3: to back with wins over Uva and Stanford. It was
Speaker 3: a one nil win over the cardinal in the semi
Speaker 3: finals on Friday that punched Wake's ticket to the championship.
Speaker 3: North Carolina, however, is no stranger to this stage. This
Speaker 3: will be the Tar Hills twenty eighth national Championship match.
Speaker 3: The program maintains the record across all D one sports
Speaker 3: for the most national titles, with twenty two in total,
Speaker 3: but they haven't won one since twenty twelve. In College
Speaker 3: Hoops News, we got a sneak peek at Star LSU
Speaker 3: guard Flage Johnson's Player Edition.
Speaker 2: Sneaker over the weekend.
Speaker 3: Johnson, who has an nil deal with Puma, debuted the
Speaker 3: shoe on her video podcast Best of Both Worlds with
Speaker 3: Flage and gave away a pair to one of her
Speaker 3: biggest fans. We'll link to that video in the show notes.
Speaker 3: It was such a sweet interaction and the shoe looks
Speaker 3: super dope if I do say so myself. The design
Speaker 3: includes her number four in a camouflage pattern in honor
Speaker 3: of her late father, the Rapper camouflage.
Speaker 2: It also has her.
Speaker 3: Big four celebration on the tongue and two quotes from
Speaker 3: her mom, raised the Beast and we worked on this.
Speaker 3: To top it off, There's also a hand written note
Speaker 3: on the inside of the shoe.
Speaker 2: It's a tribute to her brothers.
Speaker 3: In college vibes, We're entering the third round of the
Speaker 3: NCAA Tournament, and of course we couldn't get here without
Speaker 3: some upsets. This weekend had a few, including number seven
Speaker 3: seeded Missouri's three to one win over number two seed SMU,
Speaker 3: Number six Florida's three to two victory over number three Kansas,
Speaker 3: and six seeded Texas A and M's three to one
Speaker 3: win over number three seed Arizona State. Round three of
Speaker 3: the tournament begins on Thursday. In Pro Women's Hockey League news,
Speaker 3: the PWHL is in the game EA Sports NHL twenty
Speaker 3: five video game.
Speaker 2: That is. Season two of the game includes a holiday.
Speaker 3: Update that makes all six p WHL teams selectable in
Speaker 3: a few of its different modes, and in Season mode,
Speaker 3: players can even compete for the Walter Cup. This is
Speaker 3: a result of the PWHL's multi year partnership with EA,
Speaker 3: otherwise known as Electronic Arts Incorporated, forged back in November.
Speaker 3: We'll link to visuals of the PWHL and NHL twenty
Speaker 3: five in our show notes and to where you can
Speaker 3: purchase it for yourself or the gamer you love.
Speaker 2: This holiday season. Thanks Misha, We got to take a break.
Speaker 2: When we come back.
Speaker 1: We talked the business Case for Women's Sports, with Goals
Speaker 1: founder Caroline Fitzgerald.
Speaker 2: Joining us now.
Speaker 1: She's the CEO and founder of Goals Sports, a marketing
Speaker 1: and sponsorship consultancy focused on growing women's sports. She's the
Speaker 1: host of the Business Case for Women's Sports podcast and
Speaker 1: a contributing writer at Forbes dot com. Recently named a
Speaker 1: Sports Business Journal twenty twenty four power player in Women's Sports.
Speaker 1: She's got a BA from Penn State and a master's
Speaker 1: from NYU.
Speaker 2: She's a former hoops coach, an.
Speaker 1: Avid runner, and the Rad Neon sign in her office
Speaker 1: inspired the Rad good Game sign I've got behind me.
Speaker 2: It's Caroline Fitzgerald. What's out? Caroline?
Speaker 4: Hi, Sarah, thank you for having me and your neon
Speaker 4: looks amazing.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 4: Nothing but good things to say about it.
Speaker 1: Uh, love it, love it. I want to start with
Speaker 1: your sports background. Tell us all about the sports you
Speaker 1: played growing up.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Sarah, So, I think, like a lot of people
Speaker 4: that a lot of women in women's sports and a
Speaker 4: lot of women that grew up playing sports. I didn't
Speaker 4: have a ton of opportunity growing up to play the
Speaker 4: sports I loved on teams with all other girls. So
Speaker 4: my first team sporting experience was I was the only
Speaker 4: girl on an all boys baseball team. And it's funny
Speaker 4: now that I share this story, I hear so many
Speaker 4: other women saying, like, that's how that happened to me too,
Speaker 4: And they all have their own story of this. But
Speaker 4: I'll just give you my quick kind of I call
Speaker 4: this my villain origin story, if you will, of how
Speaker 4: I got into this line of work. It happened at
Speaker 4: the age of seven. Again, I was the only girl
Speaker 4: on an all boys baseball team. It was me and
Speaker 4: my brother Tanner were just signed up to play on
Speaker 4: the boys team in the neighborhood. And I remember getting
Speaker 4: there on our first day and almost immediately all the
Speaker 4: boys on the other team started teasing us and taunting us,
Speaker 4: saying things like girls can't play baseball. We're gonna crush
Speaker 4: this team. They have a girl playing in the infield,
Speaker 4: and we're gonna get them. And I was determined to
Speaker 4: prove those boys wrong. So we took the field in
Speaker 4: the first inning and I couldn't have scripted this better.
Speaker 4: Sarah every the first three boys on the other team
Speaker 4: all hit ground balls right to me, and I threw
Speaker 4: them all out on grounders, and I walked off the
Speaker 4: field at the age of seven, which such confidence and swagger,
Speaker 4: just with this feeling like never again was anybody going
Speaker 4: to tell me that I couldn't do something, especially in sports,
Speaker 4: because I was a girl and I was just hooked
Speaker 4: from there. I loved sports, played every single sport beyond baseball.
Speaker 4: Basketball ended up becoming my main sport. I still run,
Speaker 4: like you mentioned, to this day. I spent a lot
Speaker 4: of time working in the running industry as well, but
Speaker 4: basketball has always been the core sport. I still play
Speaker 4: basketball every Wednesday night and in all women's league here
Speaker 4: fun where I'm based, and it's just a lot of fun.
Speaker 4: Sports have been with me for a long time and
Speaker 4: hoped to keep playing as long as possible.
Speaker 1: So you worked in sports and a number of capacities
Speaker 1: before you decided to launch your own shop. So what
Speaker 1: was the pivot point or the moment that you recognized
Speaker 1: that there was a need for goals?
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was pretty clear. It was kind of an
Speaker 4: AHA moment. During the twenty twenty WNBA Wubble season and
Speaker 4: seeing what the women of the WNBA did that season
Speaker 4: for racial and social justice while they were also playing
Speaker 4: the best basketball in the world under some pretty tough
Speaker 4: conditions during the global pandemic, being the second pro sports
Speaker 4: league to return to play during you know, those really
Speaker 4: unprecedented times, and I was really just blown away what
Speaker 4: those women were doing, like I said, both on and
Speaker 4: off the court. And you know, I think, like a
Speaker 4: lot of people during the global pandemic, I certainly am
Speaker 4: very privileged and was able to work from home and
Speaker 4: keep my full time job working for the Dick Sporting
Speaker 4: Goods Pittsburgh Marathon at the time. But I just did
Speaker 4: some soul searching, if you will. And I've always in
Speaker 4: my life knew that my north star was to do
Speaker 4: something professionally at the intersection of sports and business and feminism.
Speaker 4: And when I graduated from college in twenty twelve, there
Speaker 4: wasn't a super clear career path of what that could
Speaker 4: look like. So I put myself on a path to
Speaker 4: become a marketer and sell sponsorship sales and work in
Speaker 4: sports if I could, and you know, all of my
Speaker 4: experiences just kind of came together, and when I had
Speaker 4: that aha moment, just being blown away by the twenty
Speaker 4: WNBA Leble season. You know, I just decided kind of
Speaker 4: to go all in. It didn't happen quite like that.
Speaker 4: The whole concept and business model of goals evolved. But
Speaker 4: the first thing that I decided to go all in
Speaker 4: on was creating a podcast, The Business Case for Women's Sports.
Speaker 4: And it really was sparked from this curiosity. I saw
Speaker 4: everything happening with the WNBA, and I really wanted to
Speaker 4: learn more about it. I wanted to listen to a
Speaker 4: podcast that talked about the state of the women's sports
Speaker 4: industry and kind of break down why the gender gaps
Speaker 4: in's professional sports are. So I don't need to tell
Speaker 4: you all these stats, Sarah probably don't need to tell
Speaker 4: your listeners, but things like four percent of media coverage
Speaker 4: at the time, one percent of sponsorship dollars. Don't get
Speaker 4: me started on the pay gaps and women's sports and
Speaker 4: men's sports. So, you know, I wanted to understand, like, what,
Speaker 4: why are we not treating women's sports like a business
Speaker 4: like this? Look at this business of men's sports. What
Speaker 4: is going on that we're not that we're ignoring women
Speaker 4: and we're not treating this like the industry that it
Speaker 4: is so anyway, that's that's kind of how Goals came
Speaker 4: to be. That's how I got into this. But it
Speaker 4: really did that I think, like a lot of people,
Speaker 4: I mean Power of a Dream watch the documentary, A
Speaker 4: lot of people were inspired by that season. But that
Speaker 4: was really a big catalyst for me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think, first of all, there was
Speaker 1: so much that was thought provoking and inspiring that came
Speaker 1: out of that twenty twenty summer, that initial global pandemic shutdown.
Speaker 1: That is, there's clear lines there of watching and experiencing
Speaker 1: for the first time some of the racial reckonings, some
Speaker 1: of the ways that some of these folks had to
Speaker 1: balance their job, and then standing for something in a
Speaker 1: moment when we were all shut down and.
Speaker 2: We had all eyes on them.
Speaker 1: But I think there's also something we need to be
Speaker 1: thoughtful about, which is that people had time, and during
Speaker 1: that time, so many people came up with their life's passion,
Speaker 1: their life's work made a big change. We are such
Speaker 1: a hustle culture that unless we are literally forced to
Speaker 1: stay in our homes, we will not look at all
Speaker 1: of the research and all of the language that tells
Speaker 1: us shutting it down, slowing down giving ourselves time to
Speaker 1: be creative and thoughtful will actually be effective for us.
Speaker 2: So every time I get another guest done, that's as well.
Speaker 1: It was the summer of twenty twenty, and that's when
Speaker 1: they came up with this big thing. I'm like, oh,
Speaker 1: I gotta be reminded of that because I'm so bad
Speaker 1: at slowing down.
Speaker 2: Okay, So tell me more about the company.
Speaker 1: How you work on behalf of women's sports teams, how
Speaker 1: you sort of organize to use these value aligned corporate
Speaker 1: sponsors to meet them with their matches.
Speaker 4: Yeah, totally. So at the core of what we do
Speaker 4: is we try to demonstrate the social and economic value
Speaker 4: that comes along with investing in women's sports. So we
Speaker 4: do that mostly in two big buckets. Soh Like I said,
Speaker 4: goals started as a podcast. Truly, I never podcasted before,
Speaker 4: but I wanted to listen to a podcast about the
Speaker 4: business side of women's sports that made the business case
Speaker 4: for why we need more money into women's sports. So
Speaker 4: I created the podcast. Maybe it was a little self serving,
Speaker 4: but I also thought the industry could benefit from hearing
Speaker 4: some of those conversations. So we are a media company
Speaker 4: at our core. So the podcast and you know. I'm
Speaker 4: a trained marketer, so I knew I just couldn't create
Speaker 4: a podcast without having some marketing channels to market the podcast.
Speaker 4: Otherwise it would only be my mother and my father
Speaker 4: and my siblings listening to it. So created the brand
Speaker 4: goals to ultimately house the podcast and create content that
Speaker 4: would align with those conversations that we were going to
Speaker 4: have on the air again around making the economic and
Speaker 4: social case for investing in women's sports. So when you
Speaker 4: come to our channels, you're going to find the data,
Speaker 4: the facts, the stats, the anecdotal stories, all the evidence
Speaker 4: that you need to make the business case either internally
Speaker 4: at company for investing in women's sports, or if you're
Speaker 4: just a person that goes through their daily life and
Speaker 4: finds themselves having to defend women's sports to people in
Speaker 4: their lives. We're going to give you the data to
Speaker 4: arm you to tell people that actually, everybody does watch
Speaker 4: women's sports and a lot of people care about women's sports.
Speaker 4: So that's what you're gonna get from us on the
Speaker 4: media side. The other side of our work is consulting work.
Speaker 4: So for the last three years, we've had a consulting
Speaker 4: practice that's rooted in brand partnerships, so trying to link
Speaker 4: professional women's sports teams and leagues with values aligned brand
Speaker 4: partners that sponsor them and can derive that value from
Speaker 4: associating with women athletes and women's sports properties. And then
Speaker 4: we also do a variety of growth growth strategy work,
Speaker 4: so basically working with brands, teams, leagues, media networks that
Speaker 4: want to get into the business of women's sports and
Speaker 4: need some help figuring out how to optimize those investments
Speaker 4: and how they should show up in the women's sports space. So,
Speaker 4: you know, our business certainly has evolved since the women's
Speaker 4: sports industry evolves pretty much every single week. As we're growing,
Speaker 4: we're very much in startup mode. We know how startup
Speaker 4: culture and action plans shift all the time. I see
Speaker 4: the women's sports industry still very much in startup mode.
Speaker 4: So we're a startup operating within a startup, So we
Speaker 4: shift as well to meet the needs of the industry.
Speaker 4: But at the end of the day, we're really here
Speaker 4: to serve the industry. We want to help bring more
Speaker 4: money into women's sports and help people go out and
Speaker 4: get more money into their respective parts of women's sports.
Speaker 1: It's so necessary because to your point, when you first
Speaker 1: looked at the landscape and thought, why are we not
Speaker 1: treating this like a business. This is so strange, And
Speaker 1: I think the comparison to men's sports always created this
Speaker 1: wrong idea that it was a charity, where As if
Speaker 1: it had been in any other business, any other industry,
Speaker 1: making the money that it did, showing the potential that
Speaker 1: it did, we would be clamoring to get involved.
Speaker 2: But because of the giant gap.
Speaker 1: Between men's and women's we saw it as this little
Speaker 1: thing instead of this really powerful thing. And part of
Speaker 1: that also so was when brands would get involved, they
Speaker 1: would not operate in the way that they would in
Speaker 1: any other space. They didn't do the research, They copypasted
Speaker 1: from the men with completely different demographics, completely different market research,
Speaker 1: and then they said it didn't work.
Speaker 2: So it must be the product.
Speaker 1: So frustrating, right, So that's why what you do is
Speaker 1: just so important. You keep saying, Wei, is there a
Speaker 1: WI now at goals or just you still yeah?
Speaker 4: We I use the Royal WI a lot. How our
Speaker 4: business model is set up so I'm the only full
Speaker 4: time person, but I tap into a number of consultants
Speaker 4: on various projects all the time.
Speaker 5: So there is a Wei, but I am still the
Speaker 5: only the Royal weed and sometimes the Royal Wii. Yeah,
Speaker 5: exactly what was that economic opportunity that you saw and
Speaker 5: you thought most others weren't seeing or taking advantage of,
Speaker 5: especially when it comes to sort of just a little
Speaker 5: bit of resource and investment.
Speaker 4: I mean, yeah, for me. You know, at the time,
Speaker 4: I was working in a full time job that candidly
Speaker 4: I absolutely loved. I was the senior vice president of
Speaker 4: Sponsorships at the Dick Sporting Gets, Pittsburgh Marathon and P
Speaker 4: three r were essentially they are the organization that put
Speaker 4: on every major road running race that happens in the
Speaker 4: greater Pittsburgh area. And I loved that job. I was
Speaker 4: thriving in that job. I was doing really well. But
Speaker 4: I starting to look at the women's sports industry. I
Speaker 4: just saw this absolute plethora of white space, and people
Speaker 4: were quite frankly, just ignoring all the untapped potential of
Speaker 4: an entire industry. I think because of misogyny and you know,
Speaker 4: some really antiquated beliefs about the capabilities of women athletes
Speaker 4: both on and off their respective field of play. And
Speaker 4: I thought, oh my gosh, I need to create a
Speaker 4: business to serve this industry right now, because all of
Speaker 4: the data, all of the numbers, everything says that this
Speaker 4: is just going to keep growing and everything happening, you know,
Speaker 4: just with women outside to sports. During twenty twenty, in
Speaker 4: the pandemic, social justice and especially gender equity. Racial justice,
Speaker 4: social justice and gender equity really came into the global
Speaker 4: conversation in a way that we hadn't seen it in
Speaker 4: a few years. And just the way women have been
Speaker 4: using the power of social media and just you know,
Speaker 4: coming in and saying we are here and we demand
Speaker 4: to have equal rights and access and opportunities. It just
Speaker 4: only made sense to me, as a feminist scholar and
Speaker 4: you know, somebody who was looking at what was going
Speaker 4: on in the sports industry, that women's sports would naturally
Speaker 4: continue to grow. So I just thought, this is the
Speaker 4: time I bet big on women's sports when I started
Speaker 4: this business four years ago, and I'm glad I did.
Speaker 4: At the time, a lot of people see me as
Speaker 4: an early adopter of the women's sports industry, which is
Speaker 4: so funny to think about because I see early adopters
Speaker 4: of women's sports as people like Billy Jean.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was fifty years ago.
Speaker 4: What are we talking about, like women's sports are not
Speaker 4: a new guy.
Speaker 1: There was this big pivot point for four or five
Speaker 1: years ago, and you're a part of that. You know. I,
Speaker 1: by virtue of the PSA that I did more than
Speaker 1: me talking about the online treatment of women in sports,
Speaker 1: I've ended up having to speak on the topic of
Speaker 1: engagement on social media for years and years, and it's
Speaker 1: something I'm happy to talk about. And also because I'm
Speaker 1: sort of was previously known for my troll clapbacks, I
Speaker 1: don't really do it as much anymore because I don't
Speaker 1: want to incentivize or add value and actual money in
Speaker 1: the pockets of said trolls anymore, the way that Twitter
Speaker 1: is now set up. But one of the things that
Speaker 1: really got me thinking about was how social media removed
Speaker 1: gatekeepers and so, as terrible as it is, what we
Speaker 1: often had was the same decision makers as editors of papers,
Speaker 1: program directors at television and radio stations, predominantly being middle
Speaker 1: aged white men, deciding for people what they should be
Speaker 1: interested in. And if you brought them a story idea,
Speaker 1: or if you wanted to talk about something on a
Speaker 1: radio show, you first had to get through those people
Speaker 1: who were deciding what they thought mattered, and with social media,
Speaker 1: when those gatekeepers were removed, there were content creators, individuals
Speaker 1: who said, this is something I care about, I'm going
Speaker 1: to make it and then watch the people flock to it.
Speaker 1: And the same goes for what you just said about
Speaker 1: athletes and brands and leagues saying we can create something
Speaker 1: here that I don't have to buy TV right space
Speaker 1: for the way that you know the digital marketplaces, you
Speaker 1: just make something and put it there, and it lives
Speaker 1: there whether anyone.
Speaker 2: Shows up or not.
Speaker 1: And what we saw was so many people showed up
Speaker 1: and so as terrible as the Internet is and as
Speaker 1: much as I am trying to spend less time on it,
Speaker 1: it has also been incredibly powerful in democratizing the stuff
Speaker 1: that people care about, and when you can prove that
Speaker 1: they do care, like with this year's WNBA season that
Speaker 1: had more social engagement than the NBA season, those data
Speaker 1: points and those numbers really allow you to push investment
Speaker 1: and really allow you to push growth in a way
Speaker 1: that subjective opinions didn't four years. So I guess thank
Speaker 1: you Internet for some shit, but not most of it.
Speaker 2: I saw you do an interview with.
Speaker 1: Someone and you talked about how a quote from WNBA
Speaker 1: Commissioner Kathy Engelbert kind of gave you this light bulb moment.
Speaker 1: She said, if these two facts are right, eighty four
Speaker 1: percent of sports fans are interested in women's sports, and
Speaker 1: women control eighty five percent of US spending power, we
Speaker 1: should be able to transform the way.
Speaker 2: Women's sports are valued. Why did that strike you so much?
Speaker 2: What was the light bulb moment there?
Speaker 4: You know, I think for a long time, Sarah, we've
Speaker 4: had this missing data problem around women's sports, where we
Speaker 4: haven't had the information necessary to make the business case
Speaker 4: for investing in women's sports. And that has changed a
Speaker 4: lot over the last four years. We have incredible reports
Speaker 4: like the Fan Project that have come out that talked
Speaker 4: about women's sports fan behavior for the first time ever
Speaker 4: where we have this comprehensive report. The collective at Wasserman
Speaker 4: has done a tremendous amunt of research, Parody has done
Speaker 4: great research. Nielsen's coming out with great research. But at
Speaker 4: the time when Kathy said that, Commissioner Engelbert, I I
Speaker 4: hadn't seen a lot of data that was stacking up
Speaker 4: to make the business case for women's sports. So, you know,
Speaker 4: That was just one of those moments where to me
Speaker 4: it made sense where I'm like, oh, okay, this many
Speaker 4: people care about women's sports and women control consumer spending.
Speaker 4: Certainly together that's going to help us make the business
Speaker 4: case for women's sports. So to me, that was the
Speaker 4: start of this quest to find the data, to find
Speaker 4: the information to help people. Again, I keep saying it,
Speaker 4: but make the business case for women's sports.
Speaker 1: It's so smart, and yeah, that absence of data is
Speaker 1: across the board. I remember Sue Bird writing a Player's
Speaker 1: Tribune column about how if they didn't get advanced statistics
Speaker 1: in the WNBA, it prevents people from having better barroom conversations,
Speaker 1: media and TV conversations because we don't know who the
Speaker 1: best corner three shooter is because we don't have that data.
Speaker 1: And the same goes for so much of the business
Speaker 1: side too. And I remember being in meetings at ESPN
Speaker 1: company wide, you know, town halls, where the only data
Speaker 1: they had was men eighteen to forty five, and I'm like, wait,
Speaker 1: what about all the other people? What if there's millions
Speaker 1: of people in a different data set listening, watching, viewing.
Speaker 2: You don't want to monetize that. You don't want to
Speaker 2: track that.
Speaker 1: You don't want to know how that's working for you,
Speaker 1: And it was incredibly frustrating, particularly for shows that I
Speaker 1: was doing where I'm.
Speaker 2: Like, wait, what about the women? Are there women paying
Speaker 2: attention and listening.
Speaker 1: What has surprised you the most about the work of
Speaker 1: connecting brands and teams?
Speaker 4: Yeah, Sarah, And you know, I'm generally a very positive person,
Speaker 4: but the thing that has surprised me the most here
Speaker 4: has been kind of negative. It's still that it's taken
Speaker 4: It's taken a long time to get more brands to
Speaker 4: buy in and invest in women's sports. There was a
Speaker 4: report that came out recently that said only six percent
Speaker 4: of Fortune five hundred companies are currently sponsoring professional women's
Speaker 4: sports or athletes. We know the global number that one
Speaker 4: percent of sponsorship dollars are going towards women's sports. I
Speaker 4: haven't heard an updated version of that number for a while,
Speaker 4: but until we have more data, that's the one I'm
Speaker 4: leaning on. So you know, to me me as somebody
Speaker 4: who for the last four years has had over one
Speaker 4: hundred podcast conversations with brilliant leaders like yourself from across
Speaker 4: the women's sports industry, to make the business case for
Speaker 4: women's sports. I can stack up every single data point,
Speaker 4: factual reason why it's good for brands to sponsor women
Speaker 4: athletes and to invest in women's sports, from brand affinity
Speaker 4: to ROI to social good to every single reason, and
Speaker 4: yet we still see that it's so slow for brands
Speaker 4: to come in. And that's not to say it's not changing.
Speaker 4: We have so many great examples of brands that are
Speaker 4: stepping up and they're going in big when they do.
Speaker 4: But I want to see brands invest in women's sports
Speaker 4: like they've invested in men's sports, go all in on
Speaker 4: a whole city, invest in sponsor more than just one
Speaker 4: team or one athlete. And again, I think it's changing,
Speaker 4: But I, as somebody who has all the data and
Speaker 4: all the facts, it has shocked me to see that
Speaker 4: this hasn't happened as fast as I think that it should.
Speaker 1: You are a very positive person, which is why I
Speaker 1: was surprised to discover via your Instagram your recent absolutely
Speaker 1: bitch and purchase of a doormat that says off. But
Speaker 1: I was inspired by that, and I was like, even
Speaker 1: Caroline sometimes needs.
Speaker 2: That energy to get through her life.
Speaker 1: Even positive, shiny Sunny Caroline and it felt relatable.
Speaker 2: So congrats on the purchase.
Speaker 4: Thanks Sarah. Yeah, I needed that every once in a while.
Speaker 2: I need it every once in a while.
Speaker 1: And there are plenty of people right now that I
Speaker 1: absolutely want took off. So if they show up at
Speaker 1: my door, I want them to get that message loud
Speaker 1: and clear. How do we get upper level executives to
Speaker 1: pay attention to the changing data around women's sports, get
Speaker 1: rid of the idea of it being a charity as
Speaker 1: opposed to a good business investment. I have asked this
Speaker 1: question of so many people because it does feel like
Speaker 1: there's so much positive movement around here. You could get
Speaker 1: into these amazing spaces at WNBA All Star, at NWSL Championship,
Speaker 1: at big conferences and be surrounded by people who get it,
Speaker 1: and those people have to go back into space with
Speaker 1: a top brass that isn't putting in the time and
Speaker 1: work to understand the data, and the answer becomes no,
Speaker 1: because they just don't know the business case for women's sports.
Speaker 1: How do we infiltrate the front offices the top spaces.
Speaker 4: That's such a great question, and Sarah, I think it's complicated,
Speaker 4: but I think it's a couple of things. One is,
Speaker 4: I think we need to have more women sitting in
Speaker 4: these leadership and decision making roles. We know one data
Speaker 4: point that we've known for a while about women's sports
Speaker 4: is that ninety four percent of women C suite leaders
Speaker 4: in the US have played sports growing up, and they've
Speaker 4: played at a pretty competitive level. Most of them have
Speaker 4: played in college. And I think if we can have
Speaker 4: more women in those decision making roles, they're going to
Speaker 4: inherently understand the value that comes with investing in women's sports.
Speaker 4: We see example, I love to give the example of
Speaker 4: Andrew Brimmer from ally played soccer in college, is now
Speaker 4: the CMO and chief pr at Allies gone way big
Speaker 4: into women's sports. You know, it's just if we can
Speaker 4: have more Andreas in those roles of companies, I think
Speaker 4: it's going to happen. You Know what I think, Sarah
Speaker 4: is there's a lot of chatter sometimes in the women's
Speaker 4: sports space that we're talking to ourselves that we're in
Speaker 4: a bubble and we're just we have our adopters and
Speaker 4: we just keep going round and round saying the same
Speaker 4: things to each other. But I'm really big on that
Speaker 4: being important. I think we really need to build up
Speaker 4: this raving fan base of women's sports fans of course,
Speaker 4: but also people working in the industry, because people in
Speaker 4: general are so attracted to groups of people that have
Speaker 4: passionate fandom of anything and that are all in and
Speaker 4: when they see somebody with conviction, they want to hear
Speaker 4: about it, they want to learn about it. It's magnetic.
Speaker 4: So you know, to me, I think we just need
Speaker 4: to like keep beating that drum. We need to keep
Speaker 4: saying invested women's sports. We need to keep saying everybody
Speaker 4: watches women's sports, all the taglines, and it's just going
Speaker 4: to keep attracting more people because at the end of
Speaker 4: the day, the product of women's sports is incredible. I mean,
Speaker 4: I don't know anybody who's actually watched women's sports and
Speaker 4: then said that wasn't cool or that was like, it's amazing.
Speaker 1: So if we it's sports, we love sports, so yeah,
Speaker 1: it's good.
Speaker 4: It's sports truly.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: So if we can just keep like growing that raving
Speaker 4: fan base, casual fans are going to be attracted to it,
Speaker 4: and it's just gonna go from there, and that's going
Speaker 4: to filter into decision makers on and on and on.
Speaker 4: So it's so Smar just got to keep beating the drum.
Speaker 2: And I think that's so true.
Speaker 1: Yes, of course, get outside of the bubble and try
Speaker 1: to change the minds of people who have not already agreed.
Speaker 1: But also the louder and prouder and more fun, you know,
Speaker 1: people see us having, the more they want to be
Speaker 1: a part of it. I always think about European soccer
Speaker 1: in that sense that for Americans the game wasn't a
Speaker 1: thing that we loved, but we looked over and we
Speaker 1: were like, wait, they've got chants and scarfs, and they
Speaker 1: do marches to the stadium together, and they fill the
Speaker 1: bars and they're angry enough to like light flares on
Speaker 1: each other. That part we can leave behind. But what
Speaker 1: is it about this thing that they're so obsessed with?
Speaker 1: Let's give it a shot, right, And that's the same
Speaker 1: with women's sports. I think this is another Sue burddhism,
Speaker 1: but I remember her talking about she just felt like
Speaker 1: it was going to be this drip, drip drip until
Speaker 1: one day it became cool, and being cool was going
Speaker 1: to be the flip that was necessary because it had
Speaker 1: been the butt of jokes and there were so many
Speaker 1: men in predominant spaces with a lot of following that
Speaker 1: we're using it as the butt of a joke, or
Speaker 1: that we're unwilling to even allow for the idea that
Speaker 1: it might be entertaining in a good watch and people
Speaker 1: might be into it. And honestly, we could do endless
Speaker 1: research papers about the insecurity of men not just ignoring
Speaker 1: women's sports but deciding to actively try to tank it
Speaker 1: in a way that they don't with other things that
Speaker 1: they're not into. They just leave those things alone. But
Speaker 1: women's sports, let's take our tiny, little fragile egos out
Speaker 1: and try to make sure we can, you know, ruin
Speaker 1: their fun. But that pivot point where it became cool
Speaker 1: to wear the orange w hoodie to where everybody watches
Speaker 1: women's sports shirt to go to the games, to root
Speaker 1: for the players, to know who they are, that's a
Speaker 1: huge important moment. And the more people who talk about
Speaker 1: it and wear the merch and invite their friends to
Speaker 1: games and watch stuff and go to the bars and
Speaker 1: ask for them to put it on, that pushes people forward,
Speaker 1: and even the people in those top C suites end
Speaker 1: up feeling that push. Run out of time here, last two,
Speaker 1: what kind of guests can people expect to hear from
Speaker 1: on your podcast? And what are one or two episodes
Speaker 1: that people should start with who haven't listened before to
Speaker 1: get into it.
Speaker 4: Great question, and the type of guests, you know, leaders
Speaker 4: in the women's sports industry, people that are working, you know,
Speaker 4: starting a company, working for a team, athletes, people that
Speaker 4: are in the industry, working to grow the space. You're
Speaker 4: gonna hear a lot of different types of episodes leaders truly,
Speaker 4: from media to multimillion dollar investments in leagues. You know,
Speaker 4: it's just it covers everything. Two episodes i'd recommend is
Speaker 4: number one, our episode with Sarah Spain, Oh.
Speaker 1: Wow, which was ready for that one?
Speaker 4: You true you set me up for that, but truly
Speaker 4: it's a great episode.
Speaker 2: Sarah.
Speaker 4: I have to say, like it's one of my favorite
Speaker 4: episodes I've ever recorded. You just I'm obviously a super
Speaker 4: fan of yours, but you're just always so real and
Speaker 4: you provided such great insights and knowledge on that episode,
Speaker 4: so I often find myself going back to listen to it,
Speaker 4: So everybody check out that episode. And then my favorite
Speaker 4: episode of all time remains our very first episode, which
Speaker 4: is an interview with EBB Jones who is the person
Speaker 4: behind the WNBA orange hoodie? And I knew when I
Speaker 4: was going to start this podcast that I wanted that
Speaker 4: to be the first story that I told. And so
Speaker 4: I just got on Twitter and I said, does anybody
Speaker 4: know who's responsible for the orange hoodie? And everybody was like,
Speaker 4: you have to talk to Ev, you have to talk
Speaker 4: to eb And nobody had ever asked Ebb before how
Speaker 4: this came about. No one knew the story behind the
Speaker 4: orange hoodie. And eb came on and she told the
Speaker 4: most amazing story of how she built this incredible campaign
Speaker 4: with a zero dollar budget, and she tells the story
Speaker 4: of how she essentially like Kobe, was in the WNBA
Speaker 4: office and she slipped him an orange hoodie for him
Speaker 4: and his family on his way out the door, and
Speaker 4: then he shows up wearing it ye court side the
Speaker 4: next week, and it's just incredible. So I'm always grateful
Speaker 4: to Ev for allowing me a new podcaster who was
Speaker 4: not in the space before she came in and essentially
Speaker 4: like broke that story on my Untested podcast.
Speaker 1: So I'm grateful to her. And it's amazable story. Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm listening to that one. I'm downloading that one right
Speaker 1: after we get off here. All right, last question, are
Speaker 1: there sports leagues areas of growth anything you're particularly excited
Speaker 1: about from your recent research or a recent guest you
Speaker 1: had on Is there something that you're like, ooh, this
Speaker 1: is the next thing.
Speaker 4: So many things emerging sports, Softball, lacrosse, women's baseball, volleyball,
Speaker 4: you know, all these sports that haven't quite reached WNBA
Speaker 4: and WSL level yet. People that look at valuations of
Speaker 4: WNBA teams and think, oh my gosh, I should have
Speaker 4: invested two years ago, or NWSL teams and think I
Speaker 4: should have invested three years ago. This is your time
Speaker 4: to invest now for those emerging sports. They're only going
Speaker 4: to pick up. So lacrosse, softball, volleyball, women's baseball, you
Speaker 4: got to get in right now.
Speaker 2: I love it.
Speaker 1: We're going to start our twenty twenty five with capsule
Speaker 1: episodes for each of the new leagues to like everything
Speaker 1: you need to know. Here's how you get in, Here's
Speaker 1: who you want to root for, Here's how to watch
Speaker 1: because there are so many new properties that are going
Speaker 1: to give people opportunities to watch great women's sports.
Speaker 2: Caroline, you're the best. You're crushing it.
Speaker 1: I've just loved watching you continue to show up all
Speaker 1: over women's sports spaces and really lead the way.
Speaker 2: So congrats on all your success and thanks for joining us.
Speaker 1: Thanks Sarah, Thanks again to Caroline for joining us.
Speaker 2: We got to take another break.
Speaker 1: When we come back, a listen theyer enters the Good
Speaker 1: Game Hall of Fame Welcome back slices. Last week we
Speaker 1: witnessed a Listenayor's final two games and a US women's
Speaker 1: national team kit. So it's a great time to add
Speaker 1: a tale about the legendary keeper and certain future Hall
Speaker 1: of Famer to the hallowed halls of the Good Game
Speaker 1: Hall of Fame. Yes, the Good Game Hall of Fame,
Speaker 1: where we celebrate women's sports lore, the kind of legendary
Speaker 1: stories that we should all know by heart, the same
Speaker 1: way we all recognize the phrase win one for the
Speaker 1: Gipper or shout Kobe when we toss a ball up
Speaker 1: piece of paper into a waste basket from deep.
Speaker 2: We got some catching up to.
Speaker 1: Do in women's sports, so grab another plaque and let's
Speaker 1: find a good place on the wall. Today we've got
Speaker 1: our newest inductee. Now there are countless highlight moments from
Speaker 1: Nahor's career, but the Hall of Fame is for lore
Speaker 1: storytelling that goes beyond x's and o's, and Nayor's lasting
Speaker 1: legacy won't be just as an incredible goalstopper, but as
Speaker 1: a goal scorer too. We don't have to go too
Speaker 1: far back for this lore. Two of her biggest dual
Speaker 1: threat moments both against Team Canada in February of this year.
Speaker 1: In the twenty twenty four CONCACAFF w Gold Cup semi final,
Speaker 1: Nayor bounced CONCACAF rivals Canada by making three penalty kick
Speaker 1: saves and bearing her own shot. The US women's national
Speaker 1: team went on to win the inaugural trophy against Brazil.
Speaker 2: Then the US met Canada.
Speaker 1: Again in the twenty twenty four She Believes Cup and
Speaker 1: Naor did it again. I guess we're calling it the
Speaker 1: Listenair Special. At this point, three saves and a converted
Speaker 1: penalty kick of her own, watching her dive for a save,
Speaker 1: walk out of the goal, calmly bury her shot, then
Speaker 1: walk back into net and make another save legendary.
Speaker 2: Nayor's ability to stack dubs.
Speaker 1: On both sides of penalty kicks is the stuff of legend,
Speaker 1: the stuff of lore. Future goalkeepers, if there are any,
Speaker 1: who can score penalties instead of just saving them, will
Speaker 1: no doubt inspire references to nay Or during the broadcast
Speaker 1: and on socials, And for that reason, the Listenayor Special
Speaker 1: is the latest inductee into the Good Game Hall of Fame.
Speaker 1: We love that you're listening slices, but we want you
Speaker 1: to get in the game every day too, So here's
Speaker 1: our good gameplay of the day. Subscribe to the Business
Speaker 1: Case for Women's Sports podcast and check out those episodes
Speaker 1: that Caroline mentioned, especially mine. Plus follow at Goals Underscore
Speaker 1: sports Underscore on Instagram. You always know we love to
Speaker 1: hear from you, so hit us up on email Good
Speaker 1: Game at Wondermedia Network dot com or leave us a
Speaker 1: voicemail at eight seven two two oh four fifty seventy
Speaker 1: and don't forget to subscribe.
Speaker 2: Rate and review It's.
Speaker 1: Easy watch keeping an open mind, rating five out of five.
Speaker 2: I'll be better for this is review.
Speaker 1: Life can harden us sometimes or make us sort of
Speaker 1: rigid and stuck, and understandably so, the lives we lead
Speaker 1: are long held perceptions. They might cause us to have
Speaker 1: preconceived notions about a lot of things or people or
Speaker 1: experiences before we've even tried, met or done them. And
Speaker 1: of course there are some things you should never keep
Speaker 1: an open mind about, like literally any form of bigotry
Speaker 1: or I don't know, deep fried butter. But sometimes when
Speaker 1: you allow yourself to see outside of what's native to you,
Speaker 1: you could be pretty surprised by.
Speaker 2: The ways the world opens up to you. See not
Speaker 2: that hard. Subscribe, rate and review yourself. Thanks for listening slices.
Speaker 2: We'll see you tomorrow.
Speaker 1: Good game, Caroline, Good game, Melissa, you antiquated ideas about
Speaker 1: the business case for women's sports. Good Game with Sarah
Speaker 1: Spain is an iHeart women's sports production in partnership with
Speaker 1: Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. You can find us on
Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, app, podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1: Production by Wonder Media Network, our producers are Alex Azzie
Speaker 1: and Misha Jones. Our executive producers are Christina Everett, Jesse Katz,
Speaker 1: Jenny Kaplan, and Emily Rudder. Our editors are Emily Rutterer,
Speaker 1: Britney Martinez, Grace Lynch, and Lindsay Cradowell.
Speaker 2: Production assistants from Lucy Jones and I'm your host, Sarah
Speaker 2: Spain