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Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grease.

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Speaker 2: Did you ever go away to camp? I did four

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Speaker 2: h camp and I got to go between fifth grade

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Speaker 2: and sixth grade. It was one week. It was the

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Speaker 2: biggest thing that happened to me in rural Bibb County.

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Speaker 2: It was very well supervised. I had a great time

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Speaker 2: and excelled in tree identification. Explain to me why a

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Speaker 2: twelve year old boy is dead after roughly one day,

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Speaker 2: not even one day at camp. Now there are reports

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Speaker 2: this twelve year old little boy had a panic attack. Really, Now,

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Speaker 2: I'm just a JD. I'm not an MD. But as

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Speaker 2: far as I know, a panic attack does not result

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Speaker 2: in frothing at the mouth and death. Now, as we

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Speaker 2: look into a so called wellness camp in North Carolina,

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Speaker 2: we find out there have been multiple claims of sex

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Speaker 2: assault on children. Children. You know, my parents worked so hard.

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Speaker 2: My mom is a bank teller working her way up

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Speaker 2: the ladder, my dad working in night shift for the railroad.

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Speaker 2: They had to work hard just to pay for four

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Speaker 2: age camp. And I remember it was thirty six dollars

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Speaker 2: in something since yes, that had to be taken out

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Speaker 2: of the grocery money. I remember it happening so I

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Speaker 2: could go to four age camp. You send your children

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Speaker 2: to camp, and you think you're doing something good for them,

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Speaker 2: giving them enrichment, making new friends, going for wellness. This

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Speaker 2: boy is dead and I want answers, not a bunch

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Speaker 2: of bs about a panic attack. I Nancy Grace, this

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Speaker 2: is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here

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Speaker 2: at Crime Stories and on Serious SEXM one eleven. First

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Speaker 2: of all, what do we know happened? Listen?

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Speaker 3: The Transylvania County Sheriff's Office said when they arrived at Trails,

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Speaker 3: Carolina for an unresponsive participant, medics found evidence that CPR

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Speaker 3: had been performed, but the child appeared deceased for some time.

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Speaker 3: But now, in an odd twist of trust, the Wilderness

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Speaker 3: Therapy comp in North Carolina is refusing to allow investigators

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Speaker 3: to talk to staff or juvenile's present when the twelve

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Speaker 3: year old died. According to a search warrant, the boy

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Speaker 3: suffer to panic attack the night he arrived at the camp,

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Speaker 3: and the next morning he was found cold, stiff, and

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Speaker 3: frothing at the mouth, not being able to talk to

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Speaker 3: staff or campers. It is unclear what caused the boy

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Speaker 3: to present with frothing from the mouth. According to an

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Speaker 3: affidavit from the detective that got the search warrant, froth

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Speaker 3: about the mouth could indicate he ingested some sort of poison.

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Speaker 2: Guys, I have an all star panel to make sense

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Speaker 2: of what we're learning right now, including a young woman

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Speaker 2: who went as a child to Trails Carolina. She's gonna

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Speaker 2: tell us about her experience. But why all the focus

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Speaker 2: on the camp now that a little boy is dead?

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I would have to go burn the place

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Speaker 2: down if something happened to my child after I send

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Speaker 2: them to camp. But I'm trying to understand something. For

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Speaker 2: a straight out to Nick Oxenar, executive producer, chief investigator,

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Speaker 2: reporter wb TV, he has been investigating Trails Carolina since

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty one. Kind of hate to ask why since

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty one. I'm sure I'm going to get to that,

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Speaker 2: But first, Nick Oxer, thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 2: How is this place build? I know it's a North

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Speaker 2: Carolina wellness camp. Efforty. Anybody that can't see me, you

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Speaker 2: can only hear me. Don't worry. I'm doing air quotes

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Speaker 2: because there's nothing well about this where a twelve year

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Speaker 2: old boy died. Now we're learning it's more like a

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Speaker 2: cruel boot camp.

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Speaker 4: Well, so this this camp is billed as a wilderness

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Speaker 4: therapy camp, and so in theory, parents send their children

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Speaker 4: there to get therapy and you know, address maybe mental

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Speaker 4: health or behavioral issues. I've interviewed a number of people

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Speaker 4: who attended this camp over a number of years now,

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Speaker 4: and one of the last questions I asked every person

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Speaker 4: who went there is did you get much therapy? And

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Speaker 4: the best I can tell is this camp provides about

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Speaker 4: thirty minutes to an hour of therapy about once a week.

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Speaker 2: Okay, well, wait, why you know, Nick Oxner? You got

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Speaker 2: me changing from the fire hunching because every other word

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Speaker 2: you say, I'm trying to write it down very quickly.

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Speaker 2: Nick Oxner joining US chief investigative reporter and an EP

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Speaker 2: at WBTV, curious, why did you start investigating this so

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Speaker 2: called wellness camp in North Carolina in twenty twenty one?

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Speaker 2: What led you there in twenty twenty one.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I got a call from a concerned parent who

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Speaker 4: was looking at sending their child there and started doing

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Speaker 4: some research and said, we have some questions about this place,

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Speaker 4: and so it got on my radar, and that I

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Speaker 4: learned that a child had died at this facility or

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Speaker 4: in this program back in twenty fourteen, a seventeen year old,

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Speaker 4: and it piqued my interest even more. And the more

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Speaker 4: we started talking to folks, the more it was clear

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Speaker 4: that there was a story here.

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Speaker 2: You know, I'm very curious about the teen boy. I

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Speaker 2: believe you're referring to Alec Lansing. Is that correct?

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Speaker 4: Yes?

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Speaker 2: So is he the teen boy that left the campground

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Speaker 2: and somehow ended up in a creek? Yeah, he had

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Speaker 2: an accident and then landed in the creek. I think

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Speaker 2: he was climbing a tree and landed in the creek

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Speaker 2: and he died of hypothermia. Is that is that Alec Lansing?

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Speaker 4: That is that Alec Lansing?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I got to be a question about that too,

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Speaker 2: Nick Oxer, because it takes a minute to die of hypothermia.

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Speaker 2: You don't just fall into the creek and die. It

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Speaker 2: takes time. So how long was it that they didn't

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Speaker 2: notice a teen boy was missing? And how far was

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Speaker 2: his body found from the camp do you know that?

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Speaker 4: Yeah? Well, and that's the thing at the time. That

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Speaker 4: was another when I started looking into it that made

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Speaker 4: my eyebrow go up. Right, is that the Sheriff's office

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Speaker 4: at the time Glancing went missing and was ultimately found dead.

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Speaker 4: They said, look, had the camp called us as soon

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Speaker 4: as they knew he was gone and we started a

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Speaker 4: search right away, we probably would have been able to

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Speaker 4: find him. Instead, they waited, you know, twelve eighteen hours

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Speaker 4: before calling nine on long.

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Speaker 2: Oh, dear Lord in heaven, that's making me sick to

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Speaker 2: my stomach because I don't know if you know, Nick Oxen,

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Speaker 2: but my children just turned sixteen and they are babes

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Speaker 2: in the woods. They you know, maybe I've kept him

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Speaker 2: in a bubble too much, but to think this boy,

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Speaker 2: this teen boy, was out there in that cold creek

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Speaker 2: water for that long and nobody called the sheriff. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 2: now I see why you were on the story. Guys.

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Speaker 2: I want to get back to the twelve year old

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Speaker 2: that was found cold, I think stiff, which is an

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Speaker 2: issue for the medical examiner because that would give me

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Speaker 2: time of death, which is really important in reconstructing what happens.

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Speaker 2: Is we're not getting any cooperation from the camp, but

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Speaker 2: I want to go to Gerty. Gerty is a special

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Speaker 2: guest joining us. Gerty was assaulted. This is her story,

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Speaker 2: I have no reason to disbelieve it at Trails Carolina.

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Speaker 2: I also want to go to doctor Bethany Marshall to

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Speaker 2: explain to me, she's a renown psycho analys joining us

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Speaker 2: out of La Beverly Hills, what is therapy camp? Because

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Speaker 2: if these children are getting one hour max. Thirty minutes

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Speaker 2: to an hour of therapy a week, that doesn't sound

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Speaker 2: like therapy camp to me. But that said doctor Bethany

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Speaker 2: before I go to Gerty set it up for me,

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Speaker 2: Doctor Bethany at doctor Bethany Marshall dot com. What is

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Speaker 2: therapy camp? Why would you send your twelve year old

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Speaker 2: boy to therapy camp? I'm not second guessing the parents

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Speaker 2: because we actually have a friend, doctor Bethany, that sent

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Speaker 2: their daughter to a therapy camp, not this therapy camp.

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Speaker 2: It turned her life around, and I'd like to report

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Speaker 2: she's doing very well her freshman year at college right now.

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Speaker 2: And we went through a lot with that family. They

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Speaker 2: went through hell trying to figure out how to help

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Speaker 2: their daughter, and this one therapy camp they went to

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Speaker 2: she went to really helped her. But this doesn't sound

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Speaker 2: anything like that to me.

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Speaker 5: You know, Nancy, probably the therapy camp or most likely

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Speaker 5: called the wilderness camp they sent their daughter to had

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Speaker 5: a lot of oversight trained clinicians, people coming in and out.

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Speaker 5: But wilderness camp, which is what this was, is where

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Speaker 5: parents send their children when all other forms of treatment

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Speaker 5: have failed. Say they've sent their their children to an

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Speaker 5: impatient psychiatric facility, to group therapy, to an individual therapist,

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Speaker 5: to family therapy, and the child is still experiencing profound deficits,

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Speaker 5: either from learning disorders, psychiatric difficulties, social difficulties.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Bethany, I believe we've discussed when you're talking to me,

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Speaker 2: you need to dummy down. Okay, I'm just a JD.

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Speaker 2: They didn't teach any of this in law school, either

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Speaker 2: at Mercery University or when I got my m at NYU.

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Speaker 2: Nobody said anything about anything. You just said, please tak

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Speaker 2: regular people taught doctor, Bethany.

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Speaker 5: Let's say you have a child with psychological difficulties. Nothing

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Speaker 5: seems to help. You send them away to a camp

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Speaker 5: that's in the wild, hoping, as you said earlier, like

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Speaker 5: your four ahe camp, that they will have loving adults

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Speaker 5: around them, they will go hiking, and while they're hiking,

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Speaker 5: they'll be talking to a therapist or sitting by a

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Speaker 5: lake and then talking to another therapist and processing everything

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Speaker 5: and they'll come back better. But while your friend had

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Speaker 5: a great experience at her camp, most of these camps

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Speaker 5: have no oversight. They are just a group of people

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Speaker 5: in a profit making setting who take kids for quote

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Speaker 5: unquote therapy. But often it becomes a culture of abuse.

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Speaker 5: And Nancy, let me tell you how they get these

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Speaker 5: kids to the camp. They go and they kid nap them.

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Speaker 2: Ooh, Dodger Bethany. I noticed when I was studying the

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Speaker 2: case that, and Nick Oxtar backed me up. I don't

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Speaker 2: know if this is correct or not, but two men.

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Speaker 2: What man took the twelve year old to the camp

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Speaker 2: all the way from New York to North Carolina? What

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Speaker 2: man I couldn't get clear on. That is it somebody

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Speaker 2: envoys that the camp sends to as doctor Bethany says,

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Speaker 2: take the.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a practice called They're referred to as goony

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Speaker 4: and basically you hire two people to show up in

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Speaker 4: the middle of the night. And I noticed from talking

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Speaker 4: to several of the former participants that I've interviewed, these

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Speaker 4: kids get woken up basically in the middle of the

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Speaker 4: night by two strangers who you know, basically drag them

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Speaker 4: out of their house and put them on an airplane

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Speaker 4: and the next thing you know, you're in the woods

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Speaker 4: of North Carolina.

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Speaker 5: Hey, Nancy, can I say something about that?

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Speaker 2: I just yeah, because I want to get to Gertie

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Speaker 2: real quick.

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Speaker 5: Okay, very quickly. I worked with Paris Hilton on her

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Speaker 5: new show. So this is not privileged material. This is

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Speaker 5: this is made public that she was kidnapped and taken

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Speaker 5: to one of these camps, as we all know, and

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Speaker 5: suffered extreme abuse while in the camp. But she told

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Speaker 5: me that she's sleeping in the middle of the night.

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Speaker 5: Two people come in. They're all dressed in that black

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Speaker 5: They kidnap her. She starts screaming, my parents are going

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Speaker 5: to find me. My parents are going to find me.

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Speaker 5: You're going to go to jail. She looks over her

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Speaker 5: shoulder and her parents are standing in the hall watching

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Speaker 5: the whole thing play out.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I just wish you could see Dr bethany everybody

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Speaker 2: here in this studio. There's Eli, there's Jamie, there's Sid

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Speaker 2: and they're all like, and you you just gave me

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Speaker 2: chills over my whole body.

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Speaker 1: Time Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: I want to go to Gerdy now. Gertie, Hey love.

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Speaker 2: Gertie explains to me that she is a sex assault

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Speaker 2: victim and the assault occurred at Trails Carolina. I refer

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Speaker 2: to her as a survivor, a survivor who's telling you

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Speaker 2: her story, so maybe, just maybe this won't happen to

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Speaker 2: another child. Gerny, what happened? When we start with who

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Speaker 2: took you to Trails Carolina?

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Speaker 6: I was transported to Trails Carolina by two transporters. They

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Speaker 6: didn't take me in the middle of the night, but

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Speaker 6: I had no idea that they were going to be

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Speaker 6: at my house.

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Speaker 2: What happened? Tell me what happened.

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Speaker 6: My mom told me that there were two people who

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Speaker 6: wanted to talk to me, and I went downstairs with

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Speaker 6: her and they told me that I was going to

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Speaker 6: a summer camp and that I would be gone for

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Speaker 6: no more than a week. And then I packed a

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Speaker 6: bag and got in their car.

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Speaker 2: I understand why a lot of parents have difficulty getting

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Speaker 2: their child to camp, because child, of course doesn't want

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Speaker 2: to go. Then they'll start screaming and throwing a fit,

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Speaker 2: maybe physically fighting with the parent. But the scenario that

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Speaker 2: doctor Bethany Marshall correctly described as has been told by

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Speaker 2: Paris Hilton, sounds forcible, like a scary kidnap. You're already

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Speaker 2: what happened? When you got to.

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Speaker 6: The transporters handed me off to two new staff and

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Speaker 6: they brought me to a building where I was strip searched.

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Speaker 2: Okay, let me just say right there. Nobody's trip searched

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Speaker 2: me when I went to four H camp.

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Speaker 6: Nobody's strip searched me when I went to a real

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Speaker 6: summer camp either.

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Speaker 2: How did that go down?

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Speaker 6: They told me that I had to take my clothes off,

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Speaker 6: and I didn't know what to think. I was kind

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Speaker 6: of frozen in shock. I figured, I mean, I'm going

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Speaker 6: home in a week. I'll call my parents as soon

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Speaker 6: as this is over. I'll just get it over with.

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Speaker 6: But then I wasn't allowed to call my parents at

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Speaker 6: all the entire time I was there, and it wasn't

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Speaker 6: a week. I was at Trails for three months.

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Speaker 2: Were you getting therapy while you were there?

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Speaker 6: I met with a therapist once a week, but from

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Speaker 6: what I experienced with that therapist, I would not call

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Speaker 6: it legitimate therapy.

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Speaker 2: You have described to us that you were sex assaulted.

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Speaker 6: What happened one of the other kids in my group

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Speaker 6: had sexually assaulted two other kids before me, and the

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Speaker 6: staff and my therapist knew that this had happened, and

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Speaker 6: they did not separate us from the kid he was

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Speaker 6: doing this, and I was very scared of this kid.

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Speaker 6: I told them that I told them that I didn't

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Speaker 6: feel safe at trails, and they assigned me to sleep

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Speaker 6: next to her. I don't want to go too far

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Speaker 6: into detail about it.

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Speaker 7: That's unfortunately epidemic, and the conversations we've had with several

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Speaker 7: multiple trail survivors, I've Gerty's was the second lawsuit I

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Speaker 7: filed with almost an identical fact patterns the first lawsuit

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Speaker 7: I filed, which involved my niece, and I've had probably

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Speaker 7: ten conversations since then with various girls who have had

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Speaker 7: an experience so similar it's almost eerie.

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Speaker 2: You're hearing jenkins Man, high profile lawyer joining us out

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Speaker 2: of Columbia, South Carolina representing victims of Trail Carolina. It's

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Speaker 2: jenkins Man and you can find him at man Blake

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Speaker 2: dot com. So, Jenkins, Gerty and your niece are by

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Speaker 2: far not the only young girls who have stated they

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Speaker 2: were sex assaulted at trails Carolina.

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Speaker 7: No, absolutely not. And you know, as doctor Bethany said,

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Speaker 7: and contrasting your four age camp experience with what these

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Speaker 7: these kids have gone through. I mean, these camps are

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Speaker 7: designed to humiliate you. What Gerty's not telling you is it?

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Speaker 7: Not only has she strip searched the moment she gets there,

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Speaker 7: but she is forced to squat and cough while naked

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Speaker 7: in front of twenty one year old field staff that

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Speaker 7: has no counseling training whatsoever. These are just kids who

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Speaker 7: get a little training on the job there and are

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Speaker 7: in no way counselors or watching these girls and boys

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Speaker 7: squat and cough naked, and it just goes from there.

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Speaker 7: These camps are designed to humiliate you, to break you down,

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Speaker 7: to take you to your lowest and then in some sick,

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Speaker 7: perverse way, hoping to build you back up better and stronger,

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Speaker 7: but again without any real therapy or any real guidance

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Speaker 7: to do any of that.

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Speaker 8: Nancy, if I.

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Speaker 5: Can just interject, in a proper psychiatric facility, the initial

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Speaker 5: session is with a psychiatrist or the child is evaluated psychiatrically.

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Speaker 5: When they're admitted, every child has their own room, there

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Speaker 5: are lights in the hallway, Nurses with white uniforms check

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Speaker 5: all night long. The only time that with the other

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Speaker 5: kids is while they're doing some recreation or in group therapy.

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Speaker 5: That's it. And then other professionals are coming in all

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Speaker 5: the time making notes in their chart. This is such

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Speaker 5: a deviation from that and such a culture of a.

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Speaker 2: Few, and we have only got to the tip of

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Speaker 2: the iceberg. Remember we're here today about a twelve year

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Speaker 2: old little boy twelve fifth grade that is dead. Guys,

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Speaker 2: I want you to take a listen to our friend

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Speaker 2: Sidney Sumner from crime Online.

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Speaker 9: The parents of a twelve year old boy think Trails

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Speaker 9: Carolina might be just the place to help their son.

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Speaker 9: Trails Carolina claims to be a leader in wilderness therapy,

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Speaker 9: offering an adventure wilderness program for children who have behavioral

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Speaker 9: and or emotional difficulties. The parents say their boy is

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Speaker 9: transported by two men from New York to Trails Carolina

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Speaker 9: Camp at Lake Talks Away, North Carolina. Their son arrives

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Speaker 9: at the camp in an agitated state. The twelve year

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Speaker 9: old is loud and disruptive, but he is assigned to

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Speaker 9: a cabin with other children as well as for adults.

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Speaker 9: In less than twenty four hours, the twelve year old

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Speaker 9: boy is dead. Sheriff Chuck owenb says an autopsy is

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Speaker 9: being conducted because the death appeared suspicious since the boy

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Speaker 9: died at the camp less than twenty four hours after

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Speaker 9: he arrived.

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Speaker 2: And what are we learning about the condition of the

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Speaker 2: boy's body? Listen.

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Speaker 3: Investigators have yet to name the twelve year old that

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Speaker 3: died at Trails, Carolina, referring to him by the initials

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Speaker 3: c JH. An unidentified camp counselor told investigators that CJH

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Speaker 3: was loud and irate when he first arrived at the camp,

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Speaker 3: and he refused to eat dinner. The boy calmed down

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Speaker 3: later in the evening and the counselor was able to

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Speaker 3: provide him with some snacks that the boy ate. The

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Speaker 3: counselor explained to investigators that the boy was required to

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Speaker 3: sleep on the floor inside a sleep sleeping bag. The

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Speaker 3: sleeping bag is inside a small tint called a BIV.

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Speaker 3: According to search warrant documents, around midnight, the boy started

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Speaker 3: to experience a panic attack. Two counselors stood nearby while

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Speaker 3: the boy was experiencing the panic attack, but the counselor

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Speaker 3: made no mention of anything being done to directly help

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Speaker 3: the boy through the panic attack.

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Speaker 2: No, that's not what I'm talking about. Listen to this.

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Speaker 9: After the twelve year old has a panic attack around midnight,

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Speaker 9: a councillor told investigators that the boy was checked on

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Speaker 9: throughout the night, starting at twelve am, with additional checks

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Speaker 9: on his well being at three am and six am.

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Speaker 9: At seven forty five am, the boy is found dead.

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Speaker 9: According to the search warrant, when investigators arrived on scene,

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Speaker 9: CJH was stiff and cold to the touch. He was

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Speaker 9: lying on his back, his arms were on his chest,

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Speaker 9: and his knees bent upward towards the sky. Also in

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Speaker 9: the search warrant, investigators noted spots of bleeding under the skin,

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Speaker 9: possible petikia in the boy's lips and eyes. The CPR

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Speaker 9: mask was covering the boy's face, and he was not

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Speaker 9: wearing pants or underwear. His pants and underwear were lying

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Speaker 9: next to his shoulder.

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Speaker 2: No, No, everything you just heard is wrong. I'm not

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Speaker 2: saying the facts are not correct. The facts are correct,

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Speaker 2: but that is not consistent with death by a panic attack. No,

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Speaker 2: joining me. Doctor Todd Barr Board certified anatomic, clinical and

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Speaker 2: forensic pathologist. Doctor Barr, help me explain how wrong that

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Speaker 2: scenario is. It is not compatible at all with a

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Speaker 2: panic attack, which means airgo. Somebody's lying, which means there's

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Speaker 2: something nefarious occurring right now. Why lie about it unless

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Speaker 2: you're covering something up, doctor.

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Speaker 8: Barr, Well, yeah, there's a lot of inconsistencies with these reports.

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Speaker 8: Number one, My biggest concern is that when they state

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Speaker 8: that they found him cold and stiff, cold and stiff

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Speaker 8: means that the body's been dead for anywhere between eight

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Speaker 8: and thirty six hours. You don't get cold and stiff

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Speaker 8: in an hour. In forty five minutes. If he was

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Speaker 8: checked on at six am, as it was reported, he

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Speaker 8: should not be cold and stiff. If he was dead,

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Speaker 8: he would be flaccid. Riga mortis doesn't set in for

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Speaker 8: at least two hours after death. Now a caveat is

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Speaker 8: if you're in a cold environment, that flows the process

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Speaker 8: down even more so it's an even flower process. And

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Speaker 8: I would imagine in North Carolina in February, the temperatures

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Speaker 8: were probably in the forties that night.

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Speaker 2: Could you get that for me? Jimmy the timp on

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Speaker 2: that night, the night that CJH died and at Lake

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Speaker 2: talks away. Go ahead, doctor, thank you.

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Speaker 8: If he was cold and stiff at seven forty five am,

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Speaker 8: as it was reported then, that means he had to

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Speaker 8: have been dead at midnight when he was quote unquote

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Speaker 8: having a panic attack.

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Speaker 2: Oh, let me clear something up, Nick Oxner joining us WBTV.

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Speaker 2: Was he cold and stiff when elle law enforcement got

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Speaker 2: there or was he cold and stiff when counselors found him?

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Speaker 2: And how long was the delay if any, when they

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Speaker 2: called sheriff, because you were telling me about Alec Lansing,

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Speaker 2: how sheriffs weren't called for at least twelve plus hours?

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Speaker 2: How long did it take them upon discovery of Cjh's

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Speaker 2: did body did they call sheriffs?

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Speaker 4: Well, that's why I think the detail about Alec Lansing's

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Speaker 4: staff in the delay is important here, Nancy. We only

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Speaker 4: know what he was like when he was found by

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Speaker 4: first responders, where they said rigor Mortis had already said

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Speaker 4: it was cold and stiff. We don't actually have a

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Speaker 4: clear understanding of when our clear answer to when he

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Speaker 4: was actually discovered by camp counselors yet, because again we

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Speaker 4: have two facts here that don't really square based on

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Speaker 4: what the doctor is telling us, right, we know that

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Speaker 4: he was in riga mortis by the time first responders

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Speaker 4: show up about seven forty five eight am. But we

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Speaker 4: also have camp counselors saying they checked on him at midnight,

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Speaker 4: three AM, and six AM. And hopefully what we you know,

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Speaker 4: get after the investigation is an explanation on how those

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Speaker 4: two facts can square.

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Speaker 2: That is a lie. They don't square. Counselors cannot check

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Speaker 2: on him and he be alive at six a m.

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Speaker 2: I believe it was six am they said they checked

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Speaker 2: on sid and then he be in full rigor and

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Speaker 2: cold to the touch at seven forty five. That's impossible.

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Speaker 2: And Nick Oxney, you're telling me that's when LA or

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Speaker 2: first responders. Law enforcement first responders got there at seven

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Speaker 2: forty five, which means counselors had to find him before that.

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Speaker 2: He could not Doctor Todd Barr be in full rigor

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Speaker 2: in less than an hour and a half if they

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Speaker 2: checked on him at six There's no way.

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Speaker 8: It's just it's physiologically impossible.

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Speaker 2: Twenty eight degrees, Doc, twenty eight degrees that morning, you know.

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Speaker 8: And here's another interesting you know, I don't know what

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Speaker 8: the frothing is all about. You can get pulmonary edema

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Speaker 8: from hypothermia from drowning heart.

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Speaker 5: Area to go again.

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Speaker 2: Pulmonary edema, what's that?

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Speaker 8: That's when your lung filled up with fluids after you

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Speaker 8: die and you get frothing of the mouth.

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Speaker 2: That's still inconsistent. Doctor. That takes a period of time

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Speaker 2: for pulmonary edema to occur, number one and two, for

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Speaker 2: it to go up your throat and come out of

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Speaker 2: your mouth and nose, that takes additional time. It's not

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Speaker 2: going to happen in an hour and a half.

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Speaker 8: No, you're absolutely right. And when I was preparing for today,

437
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:40,320
Speaker 8: I was reading some of the materials sent to us

438
00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:43,560
Speaker 8: and it says one of the staff members reportedly told

439
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:46,560
Speaker 8: detectives that he was cold to the touch and stiff.

440
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:50,520
Speaker 8: So I'm assuming that is one of the camp staff

441
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:53,560
Speaker 8: members that found him dead at seven forty five. So

442
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:57,680
Speaker 8: they're reporting to the detectives they found him cold and

443
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:02,199
Speaker 8: cold to the touch and stiff at seven. It just

444
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:02,840
Speaker 8: doesn't jive.

445
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:07,400
Speaker 2: Somebody is lying. I think I know who. But that

446
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:12,200
Speaker 2: said Eric Davis, joining me out of this jurisdiction, an

447
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:19,200
Speaker 2: expert private investigator, retired FBI special agent. Okay, that says

448
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:23,000
Speaker 2: it all right there, partner at Richardson and Davis Investigative

449
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:26,399
Speaker 2: Consulting Group. That's a mouthful. You can find him at

450
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:31,440
Speaker 2: Richardson and Davis dot com. Eric, thank you for being

451
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:33,680
Speaker 2: with us. Okay, how do I figure out who's lying?

452
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:37,800
Speaker 2: I don't think it's the medical examiner. I don't think

453
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,680
Speaker 2: it's the EMTs. They don't have a dog in the fight,

454
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:43,840
Speaker 2: no skin in the game. They arrived and this is

455
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:48,520
Speaker 2: what they found. And I know for a fact that

456
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:52,840
Speaker 2: rigor stiffening of the limbs doesn't happen. And this is

457
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:57,440
Speaker 2: in the light most favorable to the camp. If he

458
00:27:57,600 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 2: was dead, they check on him at six and he

459
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:02,919
Speaker 2: dies at six one ry which did not happen. He

460
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:07,680
Speaker 2: still wouldn't be in rigor at seven five. That's a lie.

461
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:10,240
Speaker 8: They found him and he was dead at six oh one.

462
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:14,560
Speaker 8: It would take a minimum of six to eight hours

463
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 8: to get into full riger That would take us into

464
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:18,040
Speaker 8: one or two in the afternoon.

465
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:22,119
Speaker 2: What about his underwear and his pj's totally off, his

466
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:23,520
Speaker 2: body up around his head.

467
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:26,280
Speaker 10: That's my question, Nancy, what's going on there? What's he

468
00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:30,120
Speaker 10: doing in a BIV tent with no pants on, no underwear,

469
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:35,159
Speaker 10: on all the prior incidents of sexual abuse or at

470
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:38,920
Speaker 10: least alleged sexual abuse. Why is he in this BIV tent?

471
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 10: Zipped up in a BIV tent? That's another question I have.

472
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:45,600
Speaker 10: It's going to make it really hard for the camp

473
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:48,000
Speaker 10: counselors to observe what's going on with and if he

474
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:49,800
Speaker 10: zipped up in a BIV tent, is that some sort

475
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:50,360
Speaker 10: of punishment?

476
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:51,600
Speaker 8: And why is he a bivy tent.

477
00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 11: We've done a lot of investigations and I have over

478
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:57,520
Speaker 11: sixty experienced surveys filled out, and one of the most

479
00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:00,560
Speaker 11: common things that I've heard is something called they called redoing,

480
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:04,600
Speaker 11: and it's when they're wrapped in a tarp so tight

481
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:08,800
Speaker 11: that many of them report that they can't breathe. And

482
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 11: that's the first thing that came to mind for me.

483
00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:15,680
Speaker 2: Guys, you're hearing Meg Applegate. She is co founder and

484
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:22,400
Speaker 2: CEO of Unsilenced, victim of the Trouble Team industry, and

485
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 2: advocate for survivors at unsilenced dot org. Eric, I'm going

486
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:30,840
Speaker 2: to circle back to you, Meg Applegate. This is your

487
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:32,040
Speaker 2: Baileywick jump in.

488
00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:32,440
Speaker 8: Yeah.

489
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:35,480
Speaker 11: I mean, I've spoke to countless victims and one of

490
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 11: the most common things I'm hearing is this burrito, and

491
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:41,880
Speaker 11: many are reporting that for the first week or so,

492
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:45,760
Speaker 11: they're required to be in this burrito. And they basically

493
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:48,160
Speaker 11: take a tarp, which is mentioned in the report, which

494
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:51,200
Speaker 11: is what triggered me thinking about this, and they are

495
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 11: wrapped up so tight, and then they usually have a

496
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:55,680
Speaker 11: staff member sleep on one side of the tarp, and

497
00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 11: the point of this is to ensure they don't try

498
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:00,760
Speaker 11: to run away, and any kind of the movement will

499
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 11: obviously wake up the staff.

500
00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:05,720
Speaker 2: Okay, question, hold on, doctor Bethany Marshall, how does that

501
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:09,120
Speaker 2: help a troubled teen not to be able? You know,

502
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 2: when the twins came home from nick you, the nurses

503
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 2: said he suposed to wrap them really tight, swaddle them,

504
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 2: and they were really not happy with that. I couldn't

505
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:23,200
Speaker 2: stand by to see them swaddled tightly, so I would

506
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:27,000
Speaker 2: immediately unswallow it, unswaddle them. Why would you do that

507
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:27,480
Speaker 2: to a.

508
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 5: Teen, Nancy. They're trying to keep him from running away?

509
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,480
Speaker 5: Just as Meg just said that, it gets worse. What

510
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 5: they probably did was stripped him and did not allow

511
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:38,400
Speaker 5: him to have pajamas, so he was naked from the

512
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:41,360
Speaker 5: waist down. To keep him from running away. You probably

513
00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:42,840
Speaker 5: had to have clothing from the waist up.

514
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:46,320
Speaker 2: I don't know anything about them stripping him at night.

515
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 2: H Gurny. Did that happen to you at Charles Carolina?

516
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:53,200
Speaker 2: Did they make you sleep half clothed?

517
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:53,640
Speaker 6: No?

518
00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 11: Okay, Yeah, it's been reported to me by ex staff.

519
00:30:57,160 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 11: But apparently it is required for them to be in

520
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:02,200
Speaker 11: clothes at all times. You can't even be in boxers

521
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 11: or without your shirt. So that's what's been reported to

522
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:08,120
Speaker 11: me by ex staff members that have come forward.

523
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 2: Oh, Star jump in, do you know anything?

524
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:14,520
Speaker 4: No, that is a question that has another question that

525
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 4: we still are trying to get answers to.

526
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:20,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've never heard of that being a technique at

527
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:23,640
Speaker 2: any of these wilderness camps where you are forced to

528
00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:26,240
Speaker 2: take your clothes off to go to sleep. Jenkins, man,

529
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:27,760
Speaker 2: I think I heard you jumping in. Yeah.

530
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 7: I was just going to say, Unfortunately, is horrific. As

531
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:34,560
Speaker 7: all this is, we shouldn't and can't be surprised by

532
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:37,360
Speaker 7: any of it. It's exactly what they did with Alec

533
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:41,920
Speaker 7: Lansing when they waited all those hours to contact the police.

534
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:47,880
Speaker 7: North Carolina is a mandatory reporter state in neither Gertie's instants,

535
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:51,479
Speaker 7: nor Clara's instance, nor any instance that I'm able to find,

536
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:54,920
Speaker 7: have they ever reported any of the sexual abuse that

537
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:57,360
Speaker 7: occurred to these girls, to these children at the camp.

538
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:02,280
Speaker 7: We shouldn't be at all prized, unfortunately that they clearly

539
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:06,240
Speaker 7: waited a period of hours and hours and hours before

540
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 7: reporting what happened to CJH. And they do it because

541
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:14,800
Speaker 7: it's a cloak of secrecy. They have this complete cloak

542
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:17,880
Speaker 7: of secrecy where they don't want any regulation, they don't

543
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 7: want any oversight, and they do anything and everything they

544
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:25,120
Speaker 7: can to keep what they're doing from light of.

545
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:40,960
Speaker 1: Day time stories with Nancy Grace.

546
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 2: Another survivor of this camp trails, Carolina Catherine Riley, says

547
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:55,640
Speaker 2: that she was taken from her home much as Gertie was,

548
00:32:55,960 --> 00:33:00,200
Speaker 2: much as this little boy was. That she was not

549
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:05,560
Speaker 2: allowed to shower for seventeen days. Another survivor claims that

550
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:08,920
Speaker 2: he had defecated in his pants and was forced to

551
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:13,080
Speaker 2: wear the same pair of pants for two weeks. Back

552
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:18,160
Speaker 2: to Eric Davis PI in this jurisdiction, I wonder and

553
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 2: tell me jenkins Man in nick Auckster, do you know

554
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 2: if a rape kit was performed on this child.

555
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:29,120
Speaker 10: It should have been it would have been standard, It

556
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:31,520
Speaker 10: should have been especially sound with this pants down.

557
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 2: Off pants and underwear offline by his head right.

558
00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:36,880
Speaker 10: In North Carolina. You're probably not. I couldn't get the

559
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 10: toxicology reports for up to a month, and it could

560
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:43,880
Speaker 10: be longer for the medical examiner's final report. So what

561
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:48,920
Speaker 10: you got is basically the word of the detectives, coming

562
00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 10: from what the medic told the detectives, Right, But I

563
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:54,480
Speaker 10: have so many questions. I mean, the way you're going

564
00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:56,000
Speaker 10: to figure out this's lilyning is you got to interview

565
00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:58,640
Speaker 10: all these people. You got to interview all anyone who

566
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 10: was there, You got to interview all the staffs, and

567
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:03,000
Speaker 10: you got to interview past people.

568
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:07,120
Speaker 2: They're not they would not allow LA law enforcement to

569
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:10,560
Speaker 2: interview the other juveniles. Listen to Sidney Sumner.

570
00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:14,320
Speaker 9: Early in the investigation, detectives with the Transylvania County Sheriff's

571
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 9: Office attempt to interview juveniles at Trails Carolina when the

572
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:21,760
Speaker 9: boy died. However, camp staff members refuse to allow investigators

573
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:24,839
Speaker 9: to interview or even see any of the other juveniles.

574
00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:29,240
Speaker 9: Trails Carolina says the search warrant contains misleading statements, saying

575
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:31,960
Speaker 9: they won't discuss some details out of respect for the

576
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:35,719
Speaker 9: family and the investigation. In a statement, Trails Carolina says

577
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:39,480
Speaker 9: they did not prevent children from speaking to investigators, claiming

578
00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:42,520
Speaker 9: they asked parents for permission for any children involved to

579
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 9: speak with law enforcement and state agencies and quote be

580
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:48,759
Speaker 9: complied with each parent's preference as we are required to do.

581
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:51,600
Speaker 9: Children were moved from the area to protect them from

582
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:54,760
Speaker 9: seeing what was happening, not to avoid investigators.

583
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:59,719
Speaker 2: I'm very curious, Eric Davis, in a potential homicide, can

584
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:07,080
Speaker 2: juvenile witnesses be disallowed for speaking to sheriffs or EMTs?

585
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 8: Not by the camp.

586
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:11,839
Speaker 10: But they are juveniles, so in North Carolina you would

587
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:14,480
Speaker 10: need their parents' permission, But the law elie the law

588
00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:17,560
Speaker 10: enforcement should be getting that permission directly from the parents.

589
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:19,719
Speaker 10: So in other words, the kid can't consent to an

590
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:23,960
Speaker 10: interview without their parents' permission. But it sounds like the

591
00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:28,160
Speaker 10: camp's asserting that on their behalf. But yeah, they need

592
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:30,279
Speaker 10: to be able to talk to the kids. Obviously, you

593
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 10: got to talk to the witnesses who were there, who

594
00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:33,719
Speaker 10: was in the in the bunk with them.

595
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:37,440
Speaker 2: In all my years prosecuting. I never had a parent

596
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:42,760
Speaker 2: disallow me to speak to a child witness. Never correct.

597
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 2: I find it very unusual that no parent allowed their

598
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:50,759
Speaker 2: child to speak to law enforcement in light of a

599
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:54,480
Speaker 2: potential homicide. I want to go back to Gerdy, a

600
00:35:54,640 --> 00:36:01,880
Speaker 2: survivor of sex assault at Trails Carolina. Gerty, do you

601
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:04,760
Speaker 2: believe you're the only victim.

602
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:08,960
Speaker 6: I can't speculate on what happened when I wasn't at Trails,

603
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:14,239
Speaker 6: but I do believe the survivors who I've spoken to

604
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:17,120
Speaker 6: since I was at Trails, and I believe the other

605
00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:20,359
Speaker 6: two kids who are assaulted at Trails in the same

606
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:22,239
Speaker 6: group as me before I was assaulted.

607
00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:25,759
Speaker 2: To you, jenkins Man, high profile lawyer representing victims of

608
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:31,120
Speaker 2: Trail Carolina. How many victims are you representing? Excuse me,

609
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:33,479
Speaker 2: alleged victims are you representing? Right now?

610
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:35,200
Speaker 7: Right now? We've got six?

611
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:37,120
Speaker 2: Were they all sex assault victims?

612
00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 7: All of them sex assault victims, all of them with

613
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:46,200
Speaker 7: prior notice to Trails Carolina before it happened, one of

614
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:48,120
Speaker 7: them assaulted by a staff member.

615
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:53,280
Speaker 2: Nick Auxner Jornios WTV. How much does this camp cost parents?

616
00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:56,960
Speaker 4: Offwards of ten thousand dollars a month? So this is

617
00:36:57,040 --> 00:36:59,520
Speaker 4: not a cheap thing, and it's not covered by insurance.

618
00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:02,719
Speaker 4: And from what I understand, and my reporting showed that

619
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:05,040
Speaker 4: kids are there for about three months.

620
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:09,560
Speaker 5: Nancy, can I interject about that? Yes, well, my wealthy clients,

621
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:13,240
Speaker 5: wealthy patients and Beverly Hills. Often these camps are vying

622
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:16,759
Speaker 5: to kidnap the kids and take them because it's so lucrative.

623
00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:19,399
Speaker 5: So one mother said, well, they said they'd take them

624
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:22,239
Speaker 5: for nine thousand, but this other person offered to take

625
00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 5: my child for twenty thousand. So there's this kind of

626
00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:29,840
Speaker 5: like extortion almost from the very beginning, against the child's

627
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:30,560
Speaker 5: mental health.

628
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:34,920
Speaker 7: Yeah, and I would just interject, I think it's significantly

629
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:37,800
Speaker 7: more expensive than Nick is saying. I think it's closer

630
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:39,359
Speaker 7: almost to thirty thousand.

631
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:41,680
Speaker 2: In mine, Gurty, how long were you at Trails?

632
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:44,239
Speaker 6: I was there for three months. I think it was

633
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:48,719
Speaker 6: exactly eighty three or eighty four days that I was

634
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:52,840
Speaker 6: in their program. I don't know how much it cost.

635
00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:55,960
Speaker 6: I was there in twenty sixteen, so it would have

636
00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:59,400
Speaker 6: been less than it is now. But I know that

637
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:02,520
Speaker 6: my parents couldn't afford it by themselves, and they needed

638
00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:04,359
Speaker 6: my grandparents help to pay for it.

639
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:08,160
Speaker 11: And that's also not counting the usually the therapeutic boarding

640
00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:11,439
Speaker 11: schools they recommend after wilderness programs as well.

641
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:13,640
Speaker 2: How did your parents react when you told them you

642
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:14,759
Speaker 2: had been sex assaulted?

643
00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:18,520
Speaker 6: They were horrified. My mom the other day told me

644
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 6: that my therapist completely booped her my therapist at trails.

645
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:25,480
Speaker 2: I'm thinking through everything that we're hearing, I want to

646
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:31,720
Speaker 2: go back to Meg Applegate, co founder CEO of Unsilenced. Meg,

647
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:34,160
Speaker 2: what happened to you?

648
00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:37,360
Speaker 11: Well, pretty much what you heard. I was woken up

649
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:39,040
Speaker 11: in the middle of the night. The two strangers told

650
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:40,400
Speaker 11: me we're going to do this easy way or the

651
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:43,800
Speaker 11: hard way, and they told me the hard way involved hancuffs.

652
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:46,080
Speaker 11: So I went along, put me in the back of

653
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:50,080
Speaker 11: an suv, drove me off, and I went to end

654
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:53,160
Speaker 11: up in two different programs for the course of three

655
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:53,799
Speaker 11: and a half years.

656
00:38:54,440 --> 00:39:00,560
Speaker 2: Nick Auxner, it just seems so incredible to me that

657
00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:07,000
Speaker 2: the lies here are so obvious, yet no criminal charges

658
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:07,800
Speaker 2: have been filed.

659
00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:11,000
Speaker 4: Well, and that's why part of my current work investigating

660
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:14,680
Speaker 4: the death of this twelve year old boy is, you know,

661
00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:19,000
Speaker 4: staying on regulators, state regulators, who's allowed this camp to

662
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:24,200
Speaker 4: operate freely with very little oversight and staying on criminal

663
00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:28,160
Speaker 4: investigators and monitoring the court system and court documents and

664
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:31,600
Speaker 4: court paperwork to see what new details are coming out,

665
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:34,040
Speaker 4: and you know, to get to the bottom of what

666
00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:36,839
Speaker 4: investigators know and what the truth is here.

667
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:39,759
Speaker 2: Question, what is a local district attorney doing about man?

668
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:44,000
Speaker 4: That would be a good question. Again, all we know

669
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:48,160
Speaker 4: so far from what authorities have said, what investigators have said,

670
00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:51,520
Speaker 4: and what's been filed in court, which is really all

671
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:55,000
Speaker 4: anyone's saying at this point is from the search warrants

672
00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:57,279
Speaker 4: that have been unsealed. But we've not heard anything from

673
00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:00,840
Speaker 4: the local prosecutor. It's a multi county didicial districts or

674
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:03,759
Speaker 4: the prosecutor there oversees three different counties, including the one

675
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:06,400
Speaker 4: where this boy died where Trails, Carolina.

676
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:09,240
Speaker 2: Is Nick Oxtor. Who is the district attorney?

677
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:13,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, the district attorney for this judicial district is Andrew Murray.

678
00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:16,560
Speaker 4: He actually is the former US Attorney to the United

679
00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:19,719
Speaker 4: States Attorney for the Western District of North Carolina, A

680
00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:21,640
Speaker 4: seasoned prosecutor.

681
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:24,400
Speaker 2: Really, I just so happened to have his phone number

682
00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:29,319
Speaker 2: eight two eight six nine to four four to two

683
00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:34,320
Speaker 2: hundred repeat eight two eight six nine to four four

684
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:40,640
Speaker 2: two one hundred. Why is this case not being classified

685
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:47,600
Speaker 2: as a homicide? What will the autopsy report reveal to?

686
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:52,759
Speaker 2: Doctor Todd Barr board certified anatomic clinical forensic pathologist. What

687
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:54,200
Speaker 2: do you make of it, doctor Barr?

688
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:57,000
Speaker 8: I have a couple of points. The part of this

689
00:40:57,120 --> 00:41:02,080
Speaker 8: that really is most surving to me is when somebody,

690
00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:06,440
Speaker 8: it might have been unancy, that said they found possibility

691
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:11,040
Speaker 8: of patiquia around the mouth and the eye. That's particularly

692
00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:12,600
Speaker 8: worrisome for me.

693
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:14,720
Speaker 2: Doesn't that indicate asphyxiation?

694
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:19,680
Speaker 8: It could very well indicate that he was suffocated, asphyxiated,

695
00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:23,799
Speaker 8: smothered in some way of flight pressure to his neck

696
00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:26,879
Speaker 8: to cause those blood vessels to break and cause these

697
00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:31,880
Speaker 8: little hemorrhages to occur. The one thing I just I

698
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:35,640
Speaker 8: do want to state one other thing, and this I'm

699
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:39,040
Speaker 8: not justifying what happened to this boy, but there is

700
00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:44,120
Speaker 8: this thing called paradoxical undressing when people are suffering from hypothermia.

701
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:46,440
Speaker 8: And I've done many cases where people have been found

702
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:50,239
Speaker 8: with their clothing off. When you're in really cold temperatures

703
00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:55,359
Speaker 8: and you're suffering from hypothermia, your brain can interpret that

704
00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:59,040
Speaker 8: as being hot and many people when they're in these

705
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:02,040
Speaker 8: cold environments start to take their clothes off because they

706
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:03,120
Speaker 8: feel warm and hot.

707
00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:09,880
Speaker 2: I've thought about paradoxical hypothermia because I've encountered on several occasions.

708
00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:15,960
Speaker 2: And I'm curious if the twelve year old boy all

709
00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:18,720
Speaker 2: we know and by is c J H was suffering

710
00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:23,479
Speaker 2: from paradoxical hypothermia where you're so cold you think you're hot.

711
00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:27,480
Speaker 2: It has happened, why, I would assume the first thing

712
00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:31,840
Speaker 2: you take off would be your shirt, right when you're hot.

713
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:35,640
Speaker 8: Correct and and and that's why I find the idea

714
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:40,200
Speaker 8: of the petikia very troublesome. And also he could he

715
00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:44,239
Speaker 8: could develop this pulmonary edema, this frothing fluid that comes

716
00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:47,799
Speaker 8: out of the lungs from being asphyxiated as well. So

717
00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:51,320
Speaker 8: you know this this frothing is a non specific finding

718
00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:56,120
Speaker 8: that happens in many forms of death. But it's it's

719
00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:58,360
Speaker 8: really the petikia that that troubled me the most.

720
00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:00,240
Speaker 2: I agree, this smells.

721
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:03,200
Speaker 8: Too much like foul play to me. I would really

722
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:06,759
Speaker 8: love to know what was found at autopsy. There are

723
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:12,000
Speaker 8: other internal findings that you can find that may indicate hypothermia,

724
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:14,680
Speaker 8: but there are also other findings that you can see

725
00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:16,120
Speaker 8: at an autopsy, not with.

726
00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:19,600
Speaker 2: A particia busted burst, Doctor Barr.

727
00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:20,840
Speaker 8: I want to know if he had hemorrhage in his

728
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:23,480
Speaker 8: neck muscle, so that would also be an indication of

729
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:24,080
Speaker 8: a sixtia.

730
00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:27,600
Speaker 2: Can you think of any reason if he had had

731
00:43:27,719 --> 00:43:32,160
Speaker 2: this twelve year old boy peridotscyal hypothermia that the particular

732
00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:36,480
Speaker 2: in his eyes and around his mouth would be burst?

733
00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:39,480
Speaker 2: What I can't thank you?

734
00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:43,520
Speaker 8: Yeah, you would never get patikia from hypothermia, never, which

735
00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:48,440
Speaker 8: completely rules out peridotscyl hypothermia, the particuli.

736
00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:54,080
Speaker 2: We asked the Camp Charles Carolina to come on with

737
00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:57,719
Speaker 2: us to give a statement. Guess what they didn't want

738
00:43:57,719 --> 00:44:02,799
Speaker 2: to answer my questions. Why if you have or think

739
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:07,120
Speaker 2: you have information relating to the death of this little

740
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:13,040
Speaker 2: boy twelve years old, please call eight two eight eight

741
00:44:13,239 --> 00:44:17,560
Speaker 2: eight four three one zero eight repeat eight two eight

742
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:22,759
Speaker 2: eight eight four three one zero eight and reminder the

743
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:28,720
Speaker 2: elected district attorney elected because in that jurisdiction they trust

744
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:35,800
Speaker 2: him to do something. Andrew Murray eight two eight sixty

745
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:40,439
Speaker 2: ninety four forty two hundred, or you can go all

746
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:44,200
Speaker 2: the way to the North Carolina Attorney General nine one

747
00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:51,719
Speaker 2: nine seven, one six sixty four hundred. We Wait for

748
00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:54,879
Speaker 2: Justice two Unfold. Goodbye Friend,