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Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to a special episode of the War on Drugs,

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Speaker 1: and we cooked up something really special for you guys today.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: It's a lot different than our previous episodes and I'm

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Speaker 3: excited to kick this off. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Since we've concluded our last episode, me and Greg have met.

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Speaker 5: Up in Atlanta, Clayton's hometown with a few of.

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Speaker 1: Our fellow hosts from the Love of a Good podcast,

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Speaker 1: you know, Jason Flohm from Wrongful Convictions, Gilbert King from

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Speaker 1: Bone Valley.

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Speaker 3: We all got together the iHeartMedia Offices and we did

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Speaker 3: a live panel discussion along with our friends from the Stuff

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Speaker 3: They Don't Want You To Know podcasts, Matthew, Frederick Van Bolan,

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Speaker 3: Noel Brown.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I mean, as you can imagine, you get

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Speaker 1: three four podcasts together, it's gonna be a lot of talking.

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Speaker 6: It was really cool.

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Speaker 3: We dug deep in kind of the intersection of the

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Speaker 3: War on Drugs, Wrongful Convictions, and the criminal legal system

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Speaker 3: at large, and we really figured out that there was

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Speaker 3: a lot of synergy between our podcasts and got all

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Speaker 3: gussied up, had a live audience. We had a lot

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Speaker 3: to talk about it. It was an amaz time.

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Speaker 6: No, it was dope.

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Speaker 1: It was like Avengers team up a podcasts and we

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Speaker 1: recorded the whole thing so then we could listen to

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Speaker 1: it with all of you and with the listeners of

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Speaker 1: Wrongful Convictions, Bone Valley and stuff.

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Speaker 6: They don't want you to know podcasts.

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Speaker 3: So much, Sadie Eye to Blast.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, man, give it a listen. We hope you all

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Speaker 6: enjoy it. Yeah, take care of y'all.

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Speaker 7: Hello everyone, thank you so much for joining us tonight

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Speaker 7: for this very very important conversation. It's presented by Lava

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Speaker 7: for Good and iHeart Podcasts. We are here in the

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Speaker 7: brand new iHeart Podcast Studios in Atlanta, Georgia to have

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Speaker 7: this conversation. This is a multi podcast live event. We're

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Speaker 7: gonna be speaking with some very important people and I

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Speaker 7: just can't wait for you to hear. It's a conversation

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Speaker 7: we're gonna have tonight about a decade's long war against

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Speaker 7: a concept drugs, and it's about how that how that war,

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Speaker 7: how the attempts to win that war corrupted and completely

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Speaker 7: broke a legal system, and how that broken system affects

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Speaker 7: the lives, the livelihoods, and the futures of everyone who's

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Speaker 7: made to go through that system. So, without further Ado,

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Speaker 7: I'm just gonna have our panelists come on out join

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Speaker 7: us on stage and begin the conversation.

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Speaker 4: Hey everyone, where are the guys from earlier?

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Speaker 8: Thanks so much for coming. We're very excited.

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Speaker 4: This is a truly unique collaboration with Lava for Good

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Speaker 4: and iHeartMedia, and as our pal Matt mentioned, Noel Brown

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Speaker 4: and me Ben Bollen, we host the show called Stuff

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Speaker 4: They Don't Want You To Know, and today we're bringing

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Speaker 4: together like an endgame Assembler's Avengers level assembly of some

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Speaker 4: of the greatest minds in.

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Speaker 8: The world of criminal justice reform and in the world

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Speaker 8: of the war.

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Speaker 4: On drugs, which affects every single one of us, regardless

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Speaker 4: of circumstance. So we've got some great minds on stage here.

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Speaker 4: Let's go ahead and start by introducing our guest. First directly,

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Speaker 4: here we have Jason Flam. Jason, you are the creator

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Speaker 4: and host of Wrongful Convictions. Additionally, you are a prominent

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Speaker 4: criminal justice reform advocate. You are a founding board member

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Speaker 4: of the Innocence Project, and wrong Bulk Convictions dives deep

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Speaker 4: into some harrowing accounts of what happens when the justice

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Speaker 4: system goes awry, or some would say works by Design right,

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Speaker 4: and we just want to thank you for joining us today.

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Speaker 2: Well, thank you for having me. It's an honor to

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Speaker 2: be here.

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Speaker 9: I love being at iHeart such a great company, great place,

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Speaker 9: and really excited to share some of these stories with

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Speaker 9: your audience and get people.

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Speaker 2: Better informed and more get them anger.

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Speaker 9: Honestly, I want people to get angry and get involved,

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Speaker 9: and that's what we're here for. And so, like I said,

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Speaker 9: being out on your platform with your audience, it's really

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Speaker 9: it's really exciting.

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Speaker 10: Well, also here to help us a little bit with

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Speaker 10: that informed anger that I think we're all going to

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Speaker 10: participate in is Pulitzer Prize winning author Gilbert King.

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Speaker 5: In addition, if that weren't.

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Speaker 10: Enough being a Pulitzer Prize winning author, he's also the

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Speaker 10: creator and the host of the Ambi Award, which is

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Speaker 10: the thing they give out for podcasts now the Ambient

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Speaker 10: Award winning podcast Bone Valley.

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Speaker 5: In addition to being a.

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Speaker 10: Prolific author and incredibly tenacious researcher, King's work on his

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Speaker 10: book Devil in the Grove actually led to the exonerations

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Speaker 10: of the wrongly accused men known as the Groveland Four.

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Speaker 10: The podcast Bone Valley brings that same level of investigative

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Speaker 10: rigor to the story of Leon Schofield.

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Speaker 8: So, Gilbert, thank you so much for pleasure to be here.

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Speaker 11: I'm really looking forward to joining this very promising and

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Speaker 11: talented group of parents.

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Speaker 8: And rounding out our experts.

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Speaker 4: Today we have Clayton English and Greg glad Now, you

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Speaker 4: guys are the co host and creators of the podcast called.

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Speaker 8: The War on Drugs. War on Drugs.

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Speaker 4: No, Clayton, A lot of people in the audience doubtlessly

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Speaker 4: recognize you today. You are a prolific stand up comic,

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Speaker 4: an actor, a writer, and you in your material you

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Speaker 4: deal pretty often with concepts of the War on drugs

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Speaker 4: and I think connect with people in a way that

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Speaker 4: is entertaining but also powerful and educational. And so when

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Speaker 4: when you and Greg joined up. But Greg, you are

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Speaker 4: a huge criminal justice reform advocate. You are in the

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Speaker 4: trenches working to refocus the legal system right to repurpose

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Speaker 4: it as We're.

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Speaker 8: Going to talk a lot about what that means.

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Speaker 4: But we just want to thank you guys for coming

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Speaker 4: on the show today as well.

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Speaker 6: Oh thanks for having me. I appreciate it that intro

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Speaker 6: was a little too good.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they passed.

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Speaker 8: Interesting, No stress just be perfect.

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Speaker 3: Like how they didn't sit us next to each other too.

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Speaker 3: I think it's like when the two kids in.

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Speaker 5: The class had to separate.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, no, it's better that way.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, we just didn't have in the budget. But but okay,

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Speaker 4: so let's let's get into it right because we have

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Speaker 4: a lot of stuff in our minds. It seems that

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Speaker 4: no matter where you come from, no matter who you are,

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Speaker 4: no matter what your personal feelings are, like, virtually everyone

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Speaker 4: can agree that the US justice system has some serious issues.

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Speaker 4: Like right now, as of January twenty twenty three, the

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Speaker 4: US incarceration rate is one of the highest in the world.

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Speaker 4: Right We're talking five hundred and five people incarcerated per

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Speaker 4: one hundred thousand, and one of the big questions a

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Speaker 4: lot of people have from the outside looking in without

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Speaker 4: your expertise, is how did the US find itself in

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Speaker 4: this situation? And Jason, is something you talked about quite

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Speaker 4: a bit on wrongful conviction.

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Speaker 8: Let's start with you. What's your take.

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Speaker 9: Here, Well, we are the most incarcerated nation in the

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Speaker 9: history of the world, and we lock our own citizens

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Speaker 9: up at five times the rate of Western Europe, fourteen

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Speaker 9: times the rate of Japan, we lock our black residents

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Speaker 9: of America, black citis of America up at a rate

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Speaker 9: that is higher per capita in South Africa during apartheid.

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Speaker 2: So just sit on that for a second.

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Speaker 9: Right, We have not too many statistics, I promise because

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Speaker 9: this is not a college course, but we have twenty

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Speaker 9: five percent of the world's prison population while we only

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Speaker 9: have four point four percent of the overall population of

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Speaker 9: the world.

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Speaker 2: So that's crazy. But we also have thirty.

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Speaker 9: Three percent of the world's female are in cells right

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Speaker 9: now while we're sitting here. They're sitting in steel and

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Speaker 9: concrete cages in the United States. So one out of

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Speaker 9: every three women in the world in prison right now

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Speaker 9: is in America. And America is not that big of

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Speaker 9: a country when you think about it, right It's like

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Speaker 9: I said, we're only like between four and five percent

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Speaker 9: of the world's population. So it's it has a lot

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Speaker 9: to do with the War on drugs, mandatory sentencing. I mean,

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Speaker 9: we're going to get into it, but it's it's got

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Speaker 9: to change. It doesn't make us safer, it actually makes

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Speaker 9: us less safe. It's a failure across the board. It's

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Speaker 9: a human rights disaster, and for some reason we feel

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Speaker 9: inured to this idea that we're just going to treat

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Speaker 9: our own people in such a barbaric way.

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Speaker 2: But it's happening right now and it's we got to

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Speaker 2: bring it out into the light. So that's what we're

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Speaker 2: here for.

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Speaker 4: Do you feel just a follow up here for the group,

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Speaker 4: do you guys feel that this has been normalized in

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Speaker 4: US society? And those those statistics are pretty shocking when

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Speaker 4: you hear them, just.

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Speaker 1: Like, yeah, it's definitely like everybody. Most people think that

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Speaker 1: if you in jail, you're supposed to be there. Like

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Speaker 1: we we were talking about how people look at court

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Speaker 1: shows now like uh, the CSI's and the law and orders.

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Speaker 1: They think anybody that's in that box getting questioned is guilty.

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Speaker 1: So I think a lot of things are just people

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Speaker 1: don't care to realize if it's not affecting you, if

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Speaker 1: you don't have anybody close to you, that it's going

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Speaker 1: through these things, and you think, okay, well, and then

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Speaker 1: we vilify people on the news and the media makes

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Speaker 1: things seem like, Okay, this is what's going on, this

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Speaker 1: is why it's this way. People just accept it, But

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Speaker 1: when you really look at it, and then we see

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Speaker 1: it now things are starting to hit home for people,

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Speaker 1: and you know, the suburb things that you would just

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Speaker 1: look at, Oh well that only happens in the inner city,

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Speaker 1: that only happens in urban areas. Now it's reaching you

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Speaker 1: and now you're like, oh, okay, well maybe people need rehab,

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Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying.

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Speaker 6: Maybe it's not you.

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Speaker 1: Know, beat it out of 'em or put 'em in

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Speaker 1: jail or you know.

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Speaker 6: So yeah, that's just kind.

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Speaker 10: Of I think you have on something really interesting talking

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Speaker 10: about the cop shows and like the normalization you know

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Speaker 10: who loves those cop shows cops because it's sort of

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Speaker 10: this like fantasy world of like how the system operates,

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Speaker 10: like in its best light that could possibly be and

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Speaker 10: I've heard it called copagaina yeah, if there was a

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Speaker 10: piece on it that I think we talked about on

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Speaker 10: the podcast not too long ago, but to that point

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Speaker 10: about perception, you know, on stuff that I want you

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Speaker 10: to know. We hear from a lot of listeners who

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Speaker 10: have various opinions on you know, the brokenness of the

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Speaker 10: legal justice system, but they're all coming from kind of

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Speaker 10: anecdotal places, places of like you know, observations based on

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Speaker 10: someone they know or a story they've heard, and you

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Speaker 10: don't always get it right when you're just looking at

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Speaker 10: it from one side, and you know, you might have

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Speaker 10: a piece of the puzzle, but you're not going to

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Speaker 10: see the kind of holistic view of it. Greg, can

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Speaker 10: you talk a little bit about, you know, what the

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Speaker 10: average person needs to understand about the large some of

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Speaker 10: the large and that's a very big question, but some

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Speaker 10: of the larger rations at play here that maybe you're

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Speaker 10: not going to get from just having a kind of

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Speaker 10: anecdote or experiential you know, opinion on the brokenness of

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Speaker 10: the legal system.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think one of the things that we need

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Speaker 3: to know is that the criminal justice system is one

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Speaker 3: of the is where the more they fail, the bigger

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Speaker 3: they get to be, and they're actually used their failures

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Speaker 3: to justify expanding So, you know, I see, like what happened,

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Speaker 3: you know, after COVID, We saw you know, significant rise

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Speaker 3: of violent crime. We saw you know, overdoses skyrocket into

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Speaker 3: you know, the hundreds of thousands in the United States,

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Speaker 3: and now lawmakers are utilizing those numbers and their failures

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Speaker 3: to actually solve these problems over generations, to justify passing

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Speaker 3: even tougher laws that were going to exacerbate this, So

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Speaker 3: overdoses increase, Let's make penalties stronger, Let's do mandatory minimums

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Speaker 3: for that violent crime is going up, Let's increase the penalties.

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Speaker 2: It's like the penalties are already high. Guys, like, this

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Speaker 2: is not working.

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Speaker 3: And so you actually see a system that the more

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Speaker 3: it fails, the more they're able to justify those failings

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Speaker 3: with getting bigger. And I think that's something that we

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Speaker 3: need to kind of like step back and look at

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Speaker 3: it and go, guys, we've been doing this for how

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Speaker 3: long on this drug war and drugs are getting stronger,

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Speaker 3: they're getting cheaper, they're more prevalent, more people are dying.

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Speaker 3: What metric are you describing that says success right now?

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Speaker 3: But it's up to us. We need to vote, we

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Speaker 3: need to talk, we need to get our voices out

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Speaker 3: there as much as possible. And so, yeah, I think

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Speaker 3: that's kind of an area that we need to start

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Speaker 3: talking about, like what are you succeeding at?

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Speaker 2: And it really is nothing Gilbert, and.

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Speaker 10: Your investigations are anything that you'd like to add to

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Speaker 10: this sort of the holistic view of what might be

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Speaker 10: wrong and why people can understand that better.

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Speaker 11: Yeah, I mean, I think we're sitting up here because

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Speaker 11: of false narratives. False narratives have carried the day, whether

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Speaker 11: it's war on drugs or whether it's these criminal justice cases,

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Speaker 11: wrongful convictions.

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Speaker 12: You know, I'll give you an example.

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Speaker 11: I don't get into statistics, but in Florida, since the

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Speaker 11: Supreme Court reinstated the death penalty, I think one hundred

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Speaker 11: people have been executed in the state of Florida. In

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Speaker 11: that same time period, thirty one people sentenced to death

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Speaker 11: row convicted sentence to death row have been fully exonerated

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Speaker 11: by DNA. That means the wrong person was sentenced to death. Now,

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Speaker 11: these are death penalty cases where you have a lot

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Speaker 11: of eyes on these cases. These aren't just run of

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Speaker 11: the mill felonies somewhere. This is one where the appellate

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Speaker 11: process and the lawyering that happens around these cases is

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Speaker 11: pretty extensive.

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Speaker 12: And yet we're still getting it wrong that often. That

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Speaker 12: tells you there's a serious problem.

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Speaker 4: Let's go let's stay with you here for a second, because,

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Speaker 4: as we said earlier, your work has done something powerful.

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Speaker 4: It's led to exonerations, and it's due to the efforts

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Speaker 4: and time you put in as a civilian, you know,

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Speaker 4: not working in law enforcement yourself. What are some of

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Speaker 4: your first hand observations. And this is very timely right

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Speaker 4: now because the subject of Bone Valley is up for

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Speaker 4: parole in just a few days, correct.

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Speaker 11: Right, third big parole hearing. This will be his fourth

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Speaker 11: parole hearing. Then, you know, this is the thing. He's

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Speaker 11: served thirty five years in prison already on a twenty

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Speaker 11: five to life.

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Speaker 12: Sentence model inmate.

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Speaker 11: But the reason that he's still being denied parole is

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Speaker 11: because he refuses to admit and express remorse for a

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Speaker 11: crime that he didn't commit.

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Speaker 12: So that's being held against him.

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Speaker 11: And he's been standing on a claim of innocence ever

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Speaker 11: since he was arrested, and that's being used against him

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Speaker 11: every step of the way he was This is I'm

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Speaker 11: talking about a man named Leo Schofield who, after he

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Speaker 11: was arrested.

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Speaker 12: Didn't look like there was much of a case.

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Speaker 11: The prosecutor came and offered him second degree murder, which

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Speaker 11: in Florida at the time it would have been a

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Speaker 11: twelve to seventeen year sentence.

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Speaker 12: He would have probably served of those of that time

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Speaker 12: three and a half years if he would admit it

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Speaker 12: to it. Instead, he just chose to face.

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Speaker 11: The death penalty because he was innocent and he was

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Speaker 11: not going to take this plea because he felt it

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Speaker 11: would dishonor his wife he was accused of killing, and

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Speaker 11: so he did not take that plea and he's been

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Speaker 11: in prison for thirty five years, and so this claim

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Speaker 11: of innocence has been hurting his case.

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Speaker 12: That shouldn't be the.

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Speaker 5: Case, you know, a hundred percent Clayton.

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Speaker 10: In your work, you know, you found kind of a

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Speaker 10: universality or sort of a shared experience in your audience.

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Speaker 10: And when you explore the war on drugs in particular,

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Speaker 10: what kind of prompted you to explore that topic and

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Speaker 10: explore that universality and the idea of the war on

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Speaker 10: drugs quote unquote sort of affecting more than just the

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Speaker 10: people who are being targeted or the people who are

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Speaker 10: getting convicted. It's really a cultural kind of phenomenon and

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Speaker 10: it's changed sort of attitudes, you know, in this country.

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Speaker 1: Because I was getting harassed and I go to jail

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Speaker 1: and then I did comedy and the only way to

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Speaker 1: kind of deal with it was to talk about it.

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Speaker 1: And I would just look at the hypocrisy of what

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Speaker 1: happens sometimes, and I would bring up situations and just

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Speaker 1: really realize, it's not about these drugs that are available.

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Speaker 1: It's about it's not a world or walled people. You're

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Speaker 1: the people are the ones getting crushed by the families

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Speaker 1: getting messed up if you go to jail, like I'm

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Speaker 1: and now that I'm able to talk to police and

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Speaker 1: hear what they actually say, Like they have a saying

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Speaker 1: you might beat the rat, but you're not gonna beat

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Speaker 1: the ride, which is okay, cool, it might not go

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Speaker 1: on to jail, but this night is over for you,

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Speaker 1: probably gonna mess up you trying to go to work tomorrow,

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Speaker 1: probably gonna lead to you getting fired. Now you can't pay.

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Speaker 1: So it's an effect of you're saying you're trying to

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Speaker 1: get drugs off the street, but if you didn't get

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Speaker 1: them in a shipment that was in the tons, what

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Speaker 1: is it doing when you got twenty dollars worth of

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Speaker 1: weed from this person on the street or just things

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Speaker 1: like that.

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Speaker 6: And I've and like.

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Speaker 1: You know, I mean, I joke about stuff, but it

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Speaker 1: was things I was actually doing. Like I would be like,

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to jail for weed. I don't keep

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Speaker 1: more than I can eat on me. I see the

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Speaker 1: police lights, I'm eating a whole blood sometimes and it's

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Speaker 1: not even the police, it's a taxi. So you know

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Speaker 1: what I'm saying, Like now, I don't know when I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna be hi. But that was like that was like

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Speaker 1: situations that actually happened, and then like I just take

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Speaker 1: it to the stage because it I know that it's

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Speaker 1: going to connect with people, because if you smoke, when

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Speaker 1: you've been in that situation where you were high and

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Speaker 1: you get pulled over and you're not high anymore.

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Speaker 10: It's like such a low barrier of entry to getting

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Speaker 10: you into the system, you know, and like then you're

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Speaker 10: in the system, whether you did something egregious or something laughably,

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Speaker 10: you know, minor, you're in it.

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Speaker 5: And then you have to pay your way out of it.

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Speaker 5: And maybe you can't afford to pay your.

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Speaker 10: Way out of it, and maybe then it's sort of

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Speaker 10: bankrupting you and causing problems with your family and leading

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Speaker 10: to additional problems.

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Speaker 4: But yeah, that's like that's a question that I think

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Speaker 4: needs to occur more often for a lot of people.

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Speaker 4: It's there is a victimization of people who are already

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Speaker 4: disadvantaged and then demands placed upon them that would typically

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Speaker 4: depend on privilege, right, Like who who gets arrested for

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Speaker 4: twenty dollars worth of weed and then instantly has a lawyer?

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Speaker 6: Right?

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Speaker 4: Not a lot of people. And this leads us something interesting.

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Speaker 4: This one is for Greg. We'll start with you and

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Speaker 4: then we'll go to the group. You mentioned something that

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Speaker 4: I know you guys talk about a lot of more

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Speaker 4: on drugs, which is the perception of the uptick.

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Speaker 12: And violent crime.

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Speaker 4: Right, And we hear this cyclically like throughout the years

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Speaker 4: that there's an uptick and violent crime.

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Speaker 8: Something must be done.

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Speaker 4: We all agree there's a problem, no one agrees how

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Speaker 4: to fix it. And you guys, Clayton, Greg, you guys

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Speaker 4: have talked a lot about what solutions are. And Jason

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Speaker 4: you've done this as well, like ineffective versus effective solutions?

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Speaker 4: What does that mean to someone on the outside? How

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Speaker 4: do you How does that play out in the real world?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, our response always is that sledgehammer on

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Speaker 3: the back end that we want to increase penalties and

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Speaker 3: we want to you know, really show you up, get

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Speaker 3: that pound of flesh. And that's what gets your electorate happy.

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Speaker 3: That's why people want to move that.

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Speaker 4: It's like the stance of typical legislators.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, yeah, and so yeah, so you want to

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Speaker 3: pass all these different laws and exacerbate these and you

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Speaker 3: want to put police in these situations where they have

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Speaker 3: to you know, arrest people and really get the arrest

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Speaker 3: numbers up on drug crimes. I know, like I grew,

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Speaker 3: I lived in Baltimore for a while and it was

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Speaker 3: during kind of the o'maley times.

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Speaker 2: That was a big thing.

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Speaker 3: Let's increase the arrest that's going to show that we're

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Speaker 3: really tough on it. Then you start thinking about it,

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Speaker 3: and so you know you're saying, wow, we don't have

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Speaker 3: enough police. Okay, so now you're wasting a bunch of

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Speaker 3: time utilizing your police department to you know, essentially harass

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Speaker 3: a bunch of people, like in the inner city to

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Speaker 3: just get arrests on there. So that's taking a cop

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Speaker 3: off the street. Now, that's putting that person in a

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Speaker 3: worse position. And then they start becoming these habitual offenders

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Speaker 3: because they have a bunch of drug arrests and things

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Speaker 3: like that.

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Speaker 2: And so that's the issue.

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Speaker 3: So we always go on this back end or pound

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Speaker 3: of flesh aspects instead of actually looking at what the

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Speaker 3: root causes are and when you have something like COVID happen,

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Speaker 3: or in two thousand and eight when the housing crisis happened,

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Speaker 3: we saw both those situations where crime went up and

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Speaker 3: also drug use grow significantly. It kind of really shows

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Speaker 3: the rot of the foundation of our criminal justice system,

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Speaker 3: how little we've invested in these other things, like the

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Speaker 3: front end community servicing programs or addiction treatment especially. We

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Speaker 3: have such a lack of knowledge societally and from a

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Speaker 3: government standpoint about what addiction is and how to actually

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Speaker 3: solve it. We addiction is so much about your social situation,

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Speaker 3: that things going around you and losing those connections and

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Speaker 3: trying to find that kind of fill something with that whole.

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Speaker 3: And so then we throw people into a steel cage

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Speaker 3: and tell them to get better. What do you think

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Speaker 3: is going to happen to these people? And so this

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Speaker 3: is what we continually do. And so this lack of

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Speaker 3: front ends I think treatment, removing this from the criminal

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Speaker 3: justice system, putting it as a healthcare issue, those are

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Speaker 3: things that actually solve it. You know, it's kind of

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Speaker 3: it's maddening when you know, we would talk to someone

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Speaker 3: Johann Hari, we talked on the podcast It's great authors

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Speaker 3: talk about what they've done in Switzerland and these amazing

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Speaker 3: things and how crime and violent crime went down because

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Speaker 3: you know, a lot of crime is really drug related

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Speaker 3: from like the fundraising mechanisms to try to get a

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Speaker 3: two hundred dollars heroin at it. We don't have a

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Speaker 3: job all the things that come from that and all

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Speaker 3: like kind of the turf wars and things like that

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Speaker 3: that happen, and we talk about crime and crime and

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Speaker 3: violent crime and there's ways to solve it, and we it's

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Speaker 3: just not politically popular, so we don't care, and so.

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Speaker 2: It's a little we ever. Yeah, I'll pause there and yeah.

442
00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:19,320
Speaker 6: Sure, something of that.

443
00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:26,440
Speaker 2: Yeah.

444
00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:30,000
Speaker 9: This episode is sponsored by Stand Together. Stand Together is

445
00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:33,520
Speaker 9: a philanthropic community that partners with America's oldest change makers

446
00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:36,359
Speaker 9: to tackle the root causes of our country's biggest problems.

447
00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:40,080
Speaker 9: Like many others who experienced addiction, Scott Strode was using

448
00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:43,280
Speaker 9: drugs and alcohol to the pain for him who was

449
00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:46,359
Speaker 9: childhood trauma. In his early twenties, Scott was invited to

450
00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:48,280
Speaker 9: a boxing gym by a friend and that's where he

451
00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:51,800
Speaker 9: discovered the healing power of sport and community. In two

452
00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:54,760
Speaker 9: thousand and six, Scott founded The Phoenix, a free, sober,

453
00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:57,800
Speaker 9: active community that uses the transformative power of sport to

454
00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:01,280
Speaker 9: help people treat and heal from addiction. Scott Strode is

455
00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:03,960
Speaker 9: one of many entrepreneurs partnering with Stand Together to drive

456
00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:08,840
Speaker 9: solutions in education, healthcare, poverty, and criminal justice. To learn more,

457
00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:14,240
Speaker 9: is it Standogether dot org. Hi, I'm Jason Flamm, CEO

458
00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:17,480
Speaker 9: and founder of Lava for Good podcasts, Home to Bone Valley,

459
00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:21,040
Speaker 9: Wrongful Conviction, The War on Drugs, and many other great podcasts.

460
00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:23,919
Speaker 9: Today we're asking you, our listeners, to take part in

461
00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:27,160
Speaker 9: a survey. Your feedback is going to help inform how

462
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463
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Speaker 9: answers will help us continue to bring you more insightful

464
00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:37,120
Speaker 9: and inspiring stories about important topics that impact us all.

465
00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:40,080
Speaker 9: So please go to Lava for Good dot com slash

466
00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:41,880
Speaker 9: survey and participate today.

467
00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:43,640
Speaker 2: Thank you for your support.

468
00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:56,080
Speaker 4: We know that nothing occurs in a vacuum, and one

469
00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:58,320
Speaker 4: of the things that Noel and Matt and I have

470
00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:04,280
Speaker 4: explored in our years on our show is the systemic issues,

471
00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:07,199
Speaker 4: the problem of the connective tissue and identifying that, and

472
00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:10,160
Speaker 4: that's one of the things that we wanted to ask

473
00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:15,960
Speaker 4: you guys about, what is the connective tissue between.

474
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:19,760
Speaker 8: War on drugs and wrongful conviction.

475
00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:23,560
Speaker 4: How does the situation in one exacerbate, feed or create

476
00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:28,520
Speaker 4: a feedback loop into the other, because it sure seems

477
00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:31,800
Speaker 4: like a change in one reflects a change in the second.

478
00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:36,080
Speaker 1: I'll give it to Red after this because he knows

479
00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:38,920
Speaker 1: all the details and stuff, But for me just to see,

480
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:42,080
Speaker 1: like our Edwin Ruber's episode, we saw somebody that was

481
00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:46,440
Speaker 1: in jail for drugs that did not get caught with drugs.

482
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:49,840
Speaker 1: And I think most people don't think that. They don't

483
00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:54,040
Speaker 1: realize that there's people in jail for kilos of cocaine

484
00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:56,520
Speaker 1: that they never had, never got caught in their possession,

485
00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:59,399
Speaker 1: never had video footage of, never been seen with it,

486
00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:04,560
Speaker 1: because because somebody in whatever organization they in entered into

487
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:07,800
Speaker 1: a deal with the with the Feds, and they take

488
00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:09,159
Speaker 1: this person's.

489
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:10,360
Speaker 6: Word for whatever they say.

490
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:13,439
Speaker 1: So it's essentially somebody higher up that knows how the

491
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:17,080
Speaker 1: system works, using somebody as a pawn. And this guy

492
00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:20,000
Speaker 1: didn't have a gun. He got a gun charge because

493
00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:23,399
Speaker 1: they said that he didn't have any drugs in his house.

494
00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:26,760
Speaker 1: He got charged with trafficking when it was.

495
00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:29,680
Speaker 5: There's no checks and balances on stuff like that.

496
00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:30,879
Speaker 12: How does that happen?

497
00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:33,880
Speaker 6: Well, they take go ahead, Greg. Yeah.

498
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:37,159
Speaker 3: So, I mean all these laws that we passed that

499
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:40,960
Speaker 3: are for the guys of public safety, mandatory minimums, conspiracy charges,

500
00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:44,880
Speaker 3: truth and sentencing, all these things, they're all to make

501
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:48,760
Speaker 3: the system move faster and quicker and more efficient. And

502
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:51,200
Speaker 3: it all gets back to terrible incentives that we have

503
00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:54,760
Speaker 3: because the more convictions that prosecutors get, that's the way.

504
00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:55,320
Speaker 2: That they rise up.

505
00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:57,720
Speaker 3: The more arrest that cops are able to get and

506
00:24:57,800 --> 00:24:59,679
Speaker 3: get those convictions on there, that's how you rise up

507
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:02,119
Speaker 3: on this wants to be a good soldier. Grants from

508
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:03,800
Speaker 3: the federal government, a lot of them are based upon

509
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:05,399
Speaker 3: the amount of arrests that you're getting and the amount

510
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:07,280
Speaker 3: of drugs that you're coming in through there. And so

511
00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:09,639
Speaker 3: it's all these horrible ascents that are under the guys of

512
00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:12,080
Speaker 3: public safety. So conspiracy charges are absolutely terrible.

513
00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:13,680
Speaker 2: We call it ghost dope.

514
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:17,320
Speaker 3: So Edwin Rubis was literally charged with thirty nine hundred

515
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:20,679
Speaker 3: kilos that were never discovered. A guy higher than him,

516
00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:22,640
Speaker 3: and that more money was able to say that guy

517
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:25,240
Speaker 3: had it on him and then he's able to get

518
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:27,480
Speaker 3: it because there needs to be a body because you

519
00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:30,360
Speaker 3: charge this much, you arrested someone doesn't really matter who

520
00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:32,760
Speaker 3: goes down for this, like someone needs to because I

521
00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:34,479
Speaker 3: need a conviction that we just move forward.

522
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:35,480
Speaker 2: So what happens all the time.

523
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:37,240
Speaker 3: That's where I see kind of that connection between what

524
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:39,440
Speaker 3: you do and you know, you talked about it earlier,

525
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:43,400
Speaker 3: were talking about death penalty cases where there are multiple procedures,

526
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:46,080
Speaker 3: tons of attorneys, all these evidence, all these definitely rules

527
00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 3: of procedure, and they screwed up how often with these

528
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:51,639
Speaker 3: let alone, you're run of the mill drug case or this,

529
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:55,760
Speaker 3: and so it's this massive every court system and every

530
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:57,879
Speaker 3: you ever sit in a court, it's all trioge.

531
00:25:57,920 --> 00:25:58,639
Speaker 2: They're just triosh.

532
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:00,600
Speaker 3: And there's a public defender that just met you three

533
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:02,879
Speaker 3: minutes ago, looking through your case file and wants you

534
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:04,480
Speaker 3: just to plee out because he wants to get through

535
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:06,680
Speaker 3: this case because he has four hundred a year. There's

536
00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:08,720
Speaker 3: a prosecute that's being overworked and has like two hundred

537
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:10,520
Speaker 3: and fifty cases a year and he wants these to

538
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:10,920
Speaker 3: move through.

539
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:12,800
Speaker 8: There's a judge that wants to get back and.

540
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:16,080
Speaker 3: Have cocktails at the the whatever club with his buddies,

541
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:17,480
Speaker 3: or on going to his golf Git. They need to

542
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:19,960
Speaker 3: move these through. No one wants you to actually go

543
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:21,960
Speaker 3: to trial. And when you do, man, are they going

544
00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:24,560
Speaker 3: to come at you? Edwin went to trial. Edwin said,

545
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:26,280
Speaker 3: I didn't do anything that they're telling me of. There's

546
00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:28,879
Speaker 3: no physical evidence. We when everyone's out of prison and

547
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:30,560
Speaker 3: you're going to be in there until at least twenty

548
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:33,280
Speaker 3: thirty three, this is how it goes. They punish you

549
00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:36,480
Speaker 3: for exercising your right. So everything actually works as planned,

550
00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:38,640
Speaker 3: and this is where you get those cloud our consequences

551
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:41,920
Speaker 3: of wrongful convictions where people are actually innocent or you

552
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:43,840
Speaker 3: just get hammered with it even if you've done something

553
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 3: wrong by the letter of the law. And so it

554
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:48,119
Speaker 3: works exactly how it's supposed to. And the war on

555
00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:50,879
Speaker 3: drugs is really exacerbate all this because of the massive

556
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:53,199
Speaker 3: amount of people that are just filing through our criminal

557
00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:53,760
Speaker 3: justice system.

558
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:56,679
Speaker 9: And I think one more point on the police and

559
00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:58,800
Speaker 9: the war on drugs and how that all plays out.

560
00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:01,320
Speaker 9: It's important for people to recognize that in the past

561
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:05,760
Speaker 9: forty years Ish police have arrested they've made more pot

562
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:09,040
Speaker 9: arrest they've arrested more people for pot than all violent

563
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:10,040
Speaker 9: crimes combined.

564
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:12,120
Speaker 2: So when we think about it, and.

565
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:14,720
Speaker 9: This goes back to your question and how these two

566
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:19,640
Speaker 9: worlds collide, right, Wrongful convictions happen as frequently as they do,

567
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 9: and they happen a lot. If you don't think it

568
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:24,119
Speaker 9: can happen to you, it can definitely happen to you.

569
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:29,239
Speaker 9: The fact is that because the system has created this churn, right,

570
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:31,240
Speaker 9: eleven million people going in and out of jail in

571
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:33,480
Speaker 9: America every year, and because it's some of the things

572
00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:37,119
Speaker 9: that Greg just highlighted, you have a system that doesn't

573
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:39,679
Speaker 9: have time to worry about whether you actually did the

574
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:41,960
Speaker 9: crime or not. They have a saying in police and

575
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:44,879
Speaker 9: prosecutors offices, a body for a body, right, and this

576
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:47,200
Speaker 9: is just on murder cases, right, But there's a body,

577
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:49,000
Speaker 9: there's a dead body. They got to get it cleaned up.

578
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:52,800
Speaker 9: Especially if it's a smaller town, high profile case. You know,

579
00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:55,240
Speaker 9: they got to clean it up. There's a lot of pressure.

580
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:57,520
Speaker 9: They got somebody, it doesn't matter, and then they get

581
00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:01,320
Speaker 9: this tunnel vision. They start ignoring obvious signs that it

582
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:05,320
Speaker 9: wasn't the person that they're targeting, and they for reasons

583
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:08,920
Speaker 9: conscious and subconscious. They shut all that out and they

584
00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:11,600
Speaker 9: just laser focus on the person who they've got in

585
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:13,879
Speaker 9: their sights, and that person goes down for the crime.

586
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:18,640
Speaker 9: They're probably poor, they're probably underrepresented, they're probably, as you said,

587
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:21,320
Speaker 9: represented by it. You know, in New Orleans public defenders

588
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 9: are representing four hundred people for cases a year, right,

589
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:26,239
Speaker 9: and courts are closed on the weekends. I mean, I'm

590
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:28,159
Speaker 9: not a mathematician. That sounds like at least one and

591
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:30,680
Speaker 9: a half a day, right. So you know, a guy

592
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:33,120
Speaker 9: comes in and goes, oh, yeah, what are you charged

593
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:33,440
Speaker 9: with again?

594
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 2: What was your name? Oh no, that's the other guy. Damn.

595
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 9: Oh oh, my phone's ringing. You know, it's like and

596
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:42,080
Speaker 9: you're going and they go, I think you should plead guilty.

597
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:43,680
Speaker 9: You don't have been willing to offer you two years,

598
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:45,440
Speaker 9: but if you go to trial, he might hit you

599
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:47,400
Speaker 9: with We got a case we guy you actually call

600
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:48,000
Speaker 9: me named.

601
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 2: Siah Johnson in Virginia.

602
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:51,440
Speaker 9: He was innocent and he was offered a plea of

603
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:54,600
Speaker 9: three years, turned it down, got one hundred and thirty

604
00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:57,600
Speaker 9: seven years in prison. How can we say you're so

605
00:28:57,840 --> 00:28:59,600
Speaker 9: dangerous that you have to be in prison for two

606
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:02,719
Speaker 9: life times. But also you're not that dangerous because three

607
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:05,040
Speaker 9: years of school, just like they did with Leo. Right,

608
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:07,480
Speaker 9: you're so dangerous, we're going to send you to death.

609
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 9: When I said, well, it actually got life right. But

610
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:12,960
Speaker 9: the fact is we're going to threaten you with death.

611
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:15,240
Speaker 2: The life which was just a stroke of luck.

612
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:18,520
Speaker 9: Yeah, living death right, which sends you to living death,

613
00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:23,440
Speaker 9: and it doesn't doesn't serve us as a society in

614
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 9: any way. Not to mention the expense, you know, David Kim,

615
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:29,000
Speaker 9: who's right here, pointed out to me that the New

616
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 9: York City Controller, Like, I'm going back to your city

617
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:34,840
Speaker 9: because where I'm from, But in New York City, it

618
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:38,360
Speaker 9: costs five hundred and sixty five thousand dollars a year

619
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:41,000
Speaker 9: to keep somebody in Riker's Island. At the same time,

620
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:43,040
Speaker 9: you can put them in the Ritz Carlton in a

621
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 9: sweet you could send them with room service. Yeah yeah,

622
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:48,640
Speaker 9: Harvard to throw that in too, right into my house.

623
00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:52,320
Speaker 9: That's what I'm saying, What did you do? I've stayed

624
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:56,240
Speaker 9: there to night. And at the same time you have

625
00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:59,160
Speaker 9: you have organizations like Avenues for Justice that can take

626
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:02,280
Speaker 9: a kid who's experiencing their first serious interaction with the

627
00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:04,840
Speaker 9: criminal legal system and take that kid and provide a

628
00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:08,240
Speaker 9: holistic solution, and they are able to sometimes talk with

629
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 9: prosecutors and judges and get them to turn the kid

630
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:12,800
Speaker 9: back over to them. They spent spent two or three

631
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:15,440
Speaker 9: years working with that kid, and the kids, ninety one

632
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 9: percent of them, never have another interaction with the criminal

633
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:21,320
Speaker 9: justice system. They end up going to college instead of prison.

634
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:25,120
Speaker 9: So we know what works, but I don't know why

635
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 9: we resist it so mightily. And if we were able

636
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:31,600
Speaker 9: to reduce the mass incarceration problem, then there would be

637
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:34,680
Speaker 9: time for people to actually have some of their rights

638
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:37,480
Speaker 9: and to actually we got to go back to those standards.

639
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:39,640
Speaker 9: I talk about this on the show on ronflk Bigshow

640
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 9: all the time. We got to go back to because

641
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:45,080
Speaker 9: they're just words now, innocent until proven guilty. Everybody knows

642
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:48,520
Speaker 9: that right, everybody knows beyond a reasonable doubt. But it's

643
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:52,520
Speaker 9: out the window when you're just something to be processed.

644
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:54,720
Speaker 9: You're not a human being after you arrested. You're just

645
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 9: somebody who needs to be processed into prison as quickly

646
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:01,720
Speaker 9: as possible so they can get to the next one.

647
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:06,000
Speaker 9: And it's I mean, that's that sounds it sounds pretty

648
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:06,920
Speaker 9: dead wrong.

649
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,360
Speaker 3: To me, and it is and if I can just

650
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:11,520
Speaker 3: and that's where the kind of the drug war gets

651
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 3: on it.

652
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:12,840
Speaker 2: It really is a war.

653
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 3: We looked so much into kind of the propaganda, and

654
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:16,640
Speaker 3: I know we all grew up in the times of

655
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 3: like Dare and all these CBS news reports, and they

656
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:22,240
Speaker 3: made it look like they were like, you know, the

657
00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:24,880
Speaker 3: villain from a war that you are fighting. And when

658
00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:28,360
Speaker 3: you villainize people and you make them subhuman, you're able

659
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:31,479
Speaker 3: to do things to them like deprive them on constitutional right,

660
00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:33,560
Speaker 3: send them to prison for a long time because they

661
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,440
Speaker 3: deserve it, because they are an enemy. And so you're

662
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 3: able to do all these things because of this propaganda,

663
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:41,840
Speaker 3: like you said, to make them just less of a

664
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:42,800
Speaker 3: person very much.

665
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:44,959
Speaker 1: And you say it too, you always say, if it's

666
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:48,240
Speaker 1: a war, then you got to have casualty. Yeah, So

667
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:50,240
Speaker 1: what do you think the casualty is gonna be? Yeah,

668
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:53,080
Speaker 1: and you mentioned it too. It mostly affects like poor people.

669
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 1: And I have a thing I say, it's expensive being broke,

670
00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 1: like super expensive, just like even when I'm getting pulled over,

671
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:02,440
Speaker 1: it's because a lot of times it was because I

672
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:03,480
Speaker 1: had a.

673
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:06,320
Speaker 6: Rundown car tag lights out.

674
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:08,840
Speaker 1: Oh, you taped up the tag light and it would

675
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:11,080
Speaker 1: just be a reON. I would see weed be the

676
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 1: reason for why they pulled me over. Oh we smelled marijuana.

677
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:16,959
Speaker 1: You smelled marijuana. I was going in the opposite direction

678
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:19,960
Speaker 1: you were going with both windows up. And I don't

679
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:21,920
Speaker 1: have any weed on me because I ate it already.

680
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:24,320
Speaker 6: How did you like? So?

681
00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:27,480
Speaker 10: Yeah, you know, Jason, you're talking about some you know,

682
00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:30,760
Speaker 10: positive things that can possibly change this system.

683
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:33,080
Speaker 5: But it sounds to me like these are generational things.

684
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:35,000
Speaker 10: These aren't These are you know, things that have to

685
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 10: be changed through education, like of a whole other generation

686
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:40,120
Speaker 10: who will then maybe be in power.

687
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:41,640
Speaker 5: And actually enact those changes.

688
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:44,480
Speaker 10: Like can we look at a positive spin on this,

689
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:46,640
Speaker 10: Like we talk about criminal justice reform?

690
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:48,360
Speaker 5: What does that look like to all of you?

691
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 10: And how is it as simple as just like legislation

692
00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:53,440
Speaker 10: or is it a longer game than that.

693
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:54,160
Speaker 6: Oh?

694
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 9: We have to changed people's hearts and minds first, right,

695
00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 9: we have to change attitudes and perceptions. And you know, drugs,

696
00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:04,720
Speaker 9: as we've talked about, are not the problem, right, Drugs?

697
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 9: You know, at the Drug Policy Alliance on whose board

698
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:10,240
Speaker 9: I serve for over twenty years. We have a philosophy

699
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:13,440
Speaker 9: called harm reduction, right, which basically says, first you have

700
00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:15,800
Speaker 9: to accept that drugs have always been and will always

701
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:16,800
Speaker 9: be a part of society.

702
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:17,000
Speaker 6: Right.

703
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:19,880
Speaker 9: Cavemen did payote Little kids been around in a circle

704
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 9: until they get dizzy because they like that feeling of

705
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:24,400
Speaker 9: being out of there, you know, like being a little goofy.

706
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:29,400
Speaker 2: Right, and you do it too, right. I say, I

707
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:31,320
Speaker 2: was a little worried, but I figured it'll be okay.

708
00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:34,360
Speaker 9: But the you know, but the fact is we need

709
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:37,840
Speaker 9: to accept that and then start to say, okay, what

710
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:40,600
Speaker 9: can we do to reduce the amount of harms that

711
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 9: drugs do to society. These guys made the great point

712
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:46,200
Speaker 9: on the War on Drugs podcast about how you can.

713
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:47,480
Speaker 2: Say one thing for the war rus. I think it

714
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:48,000
Speaker 2: was you, Clayton.

715
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:50,160
Speaker 9: We gave it a good try, right, one hundred years,

716
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:52,760
Speaker 9: a trillion dollars, and it's worse that it's ever been.

717
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:55,040
Speaker 9: I'd say, I mean, I'm not a genius, but I'd

718
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:57,520
Speaker 9: say that's a pretty great failure. And the fact is,

719
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:02,560
Speaker 9: so I think we do have to elect better, you know,

720
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:06,120
Speaker 9: people into office, right, who will you know see these

721
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:08,600
Speaker 9: changes through and the good news is. You know, when

722
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:10,160
Speaker 9: I started this, we were talking about earlier, when I

723
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:12,239
Speaker 9: started this work thirty years ago, and people are like,

724
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:15,440
Speaker 9: you're doing what like decriminalization, that's crazy mandatory sensing.

725
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:17,520
Speaker 2: What's that? I don't understand, blah blah blah.

726
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:20,040
Speaker 9: But now, but somebody put their arm around me, somebody

727
00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:21,560
Speaker 9: who I thought was old and wise at the time,

728
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 9: turns out he was and said, hey, kid, takes thirty

729
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:27,680
Speaker 9: years to change anything. And I was like, well, here

730
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:29,879
Speaker 9: it is. I was ninety three. It's thirty years later.

731
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:33,320
Speaker 9: And we you know, it used to be get cracked

732
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:34,839
Speaker 9: in the head by a cop for smoking a joint

733
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:38,200
Speaker 9: washing Square park and now you can buy it in

734
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:40,359
Speaker 9: the park, like from people who have a little booth

735
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:42,320
Speaker 9: set up right, and they got like a little rainbow

736
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:43,040
Speaker 9: flag or whatever.

737
00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 6: You Yeah, things are.

738
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:45,319
Speaker 2: Good, you know what I mean.

739
00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:47,880
Speaker 9: And so and I also have to say because Clayton

740
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:51,080
Speaker 9: made that point before and growing up, I mean, I smoked.

741
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 9: I kind of thought of myself as like the Jewish

742
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:56,960
Speaker 9: Bob Marley. I wanted to smoke as much weed as him, you.

743
00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:57,399
Speaker 6: Know what I mean.

744
00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:00,839
Speaker 9: And I had hair down like down hear and all

745
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:02,759
Speaker 9: the way around. I couldn't even see unless I look

746
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:05,399
Speaker 9: this way to see through the little slit in between.

747
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:06,280
Speaker 2: My hair and their style.

748
00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:10,040
Speaker 9: Yeah, and I always smelled of weed and I because

749
00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:11,680
Speaker 9: I started the morning, I mean half the time I

750
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:14,000
Speaker 9: was on fire, you know what I mean. And yet

751
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:17,120
Speaker 9: I never got arrested because I was white and I

752
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:19,279
Speaker 9: lived in a zip code where they didn't arrest kids

753
00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:22,319
Speaker 9: like me for things like that. So that's one of

754
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:24,680
Speaker 9: the things that informs my work is that I don't

755
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:28,919
Speaker 9: like on fairness and it's totally unfair. I don't think

756
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:31,759
Speaker 9: anybody likes unfairness when they see it, but when it

757
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:36,160
Speaker 9: happens behind closed doors in police stations and prison cells

758
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:38,160
Speaker 9: and places like that, we don't see it, and we

759
00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:40,160
Speaker 9: need to see it, and we need to see these

760
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:43,440
Speaker 9: people as just people. We're not perfect, you're not perfect.

761
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:45,840
Speaker 9: But I also didn't need to go to jail. I

762
00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:48,360
Speaker 9: went to rehab and I ended up starting a business

763
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:50,880
Speaker 9: employing dozens of people, paying lots of taxes.

764
00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:57,120
Speaker 4: This we're talking right about huge changes, shifts and paradigms,

765
00:35:57,200 --> 00:36:03,280
Speaker 4: right see changes, and we your statistics constantly and we

766
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:06,919
Speaker 4: know I think the average person again will agree there's

767
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:10,359
Speaker 4: a problem, will not agree on the solutions often, and

768
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:14,120
Speaker 4: then they'll have the kind of party line. They'll say, like, oh, well,

769
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:17,359
Speaker 4: what I should do is just I should vote right,

770
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:20,640
Speaker 4: I should vote once every four years, I think, is

771
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 4: how most people do it in the States. But when

772
00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 4: we talk about this, you know, Matt said something really

773
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:32,200
Speaker 4: beautiful earlier when he beautiful and horrifying when he said,

774
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:36,959
Speaker 4: you know this, the war on drugs affects you.

775
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:40,120
Speaker 8: And it's something I've heard all of us echo.

776
00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:40,439
Speaker 6: Right.

777
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:44,160
Speaker 4: It doesn't matter if you do or don't smoke weed

778
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:47,560
Speaker 4: or whatever, it somehow will affect you.

779
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:48,560
Speaker 9: Is the.

780
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:51,399
Speaker 8: Reverse of that true?

781
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:55,719
Speaker 4: Does that mean individuals can somehow affect the situation for

782
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:59,920
Speaker 4: the better? Can you affect the war on drugs? You

783
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:03,319
Speaker 4: affect wrong and full conviction as a civilian, as just

784
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:05,399
Speaker 4: a regular person like all like all of.

785
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:08,399
Speaker 1: Us, right, I didn't think you could before I did

786
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:11,080
Speaker 1: this podcast, really like, I just thought it was you know,

787
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:13,480
Speaker 1: it is what it is. You could say stuff and

788
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:16,680
Speaker 1: you could post online all you want, but it took

789
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:19,520
Speaker 1: somebody like Greg to be like, no, Like, if enough

790
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:23,279
Speaker 1: people make enough noise on this issue, then you can

791
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 1: get the ball rolling on things. You said, what call

792
00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:27,640
Speaker 1: your legislator three times.

793
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:28,200
Speaker 2: It does.

794
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:30,360
Speaker 6: People started getting it moving.

795
00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:32,680
Speaker 3: It really does. Like if anyone's ever worked on the

796
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:34,640
Speaker 3: wallmaker's office, some of that. You get a couple of

797
00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:36,959
Speaker 3: calls on the bill. I mean things, it goes nuts

798
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:38,680
Speaker 3: in the in the bility. They think people really care

799
00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:39,000
Speaker 3: about it.

800
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:42,960
Speaker 10: You'd be surprised to know how few people actually do that.

801
00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:45,560
Speaker 10: So when it happens, it's kind of alarming.

802
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:51,800
Speaker 6: It's probably my design too, Like you know what I'm saying, what's.

803
00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:52,880
Speaker 5: The same with convoluted laws.

804
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:54,440
Speaker 10: I mean, like you're just not being able to drill

805
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:56,560
Speaker 10: down and fully understand. They make it that way, you know,

806
00:37:56,640 --> 00:38:01,280
Speaker 10: to disempower people. But can you talk about the Eric andresuation.

807
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:02,200
Speaker 5: A little bit that you're involved in, Like I mean.

808
00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:05,440
Speaker 10: That's I think a good example of like giving a

809
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:07,839
Speaker 10: megaphone to these types of injustices.

810
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:13,040
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, So if you all don't know, I was.

811
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:16,440
Speaker 1: I have a lawsuit against Clayton County because I was

812
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:20,440
Speaker 1: harassed at the airport. Just try to give it to

813
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:24,360
Speaker 1: you long story short. I was go, this is past security.

814
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:26,279
Speaker 1: I'm at the airport. I'm getting on the flight to

815
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:29,440
Speaker 1: go to California. I'm getting on the jet bridge. This

816
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 1: is the jet bridge. It kind of curves around. Two

817
00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:35,600
Speaker 1: officers stop me. They don't stop anybody else. They asked me,

818
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:38,120
Speaker 1: can we search We're looking for people who have drugs

819
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:40,560
Speaker 1: and bla blah blah blah. And I'm like just trying

820
00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:42,839
Speaker 1: to get on this flight, and in my head, I'm

821
00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:47,160
Speaker 1: also thinking who takes drugs to Los Angeles? Like I

822
00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:50,000
Speaker 1: think you need to be on the other flight when

823
00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:53,239
Speaker 1: they come, because like it wouldn't make sense to me,

824
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:55,480
Speaker 1: But that later made sense. But they just, you know,

825
00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:58,080
Speaker 1: doing a lot of small talk and searching. And when

826
00:38:58,120 --> 00:38:59,799
Speaker 1: I got on the plane, I was thinking, Okay, they're

827
00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:01,239
Speaker 1: going to come back on here and pull me off

828
00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:03,239
Speaker 1: this plane. They're just waiting for everybody else to get

829
00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:05,040
Speaker 1: on the flight, and then they're gonna take me to jail.

830
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:06,560
Speaker 1: I don't know what they're taking me to jail for.

831
00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:09,200
Speaker 1: I didn't have anything, but I just remember thinking that,

832
00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:11,000
Speaker 1: and I wanted to say something to the story this.

833
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:13,000
Speaker 1: I didn't, and I just kind of took it, took

834
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:16,799
Speaker 1: it on the chin. That's how most things happened with injustice.

835
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:19,000
Speaker 1: Are getting harassed, you just kind of ride with it.

836
00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:21,759
Speaker 1: And then the same thing happened to Eric Andre. He

837
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:24,160
Speaker 1: talked about it on the Jimmy Kimmel Show, and I

838
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:26,040
Speaker 1: knew him, I've worked with him a few times, so

839
00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:28,400
Speaker 1: I just reached out to him and I was like, hey,

840
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:31,680
Speaker 1: the same thing happened to me w and he was like, oh, okay.

841
00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:33,360
Speaker 1: And then he reached out a few weeks later and

842
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:36,560
Speaker 1: said that he was gonna try to pursue, like l

843
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:39,319
Speaker 1: a lawsuit and if I wanted to be a part

844
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:41,719
Speaker 1: of it. And We've had other people that have joined in.

845
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:44,560
Speaker 1: And one of the things that we found was I

846
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:48,200
Speaker 1: think sixty seven percent of the people they stopped were

847
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:51,360
Speaker 1: people were like black people, and I think eighty percent

848
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:52,320
Speaker 1: were people of color.

849
00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:54,040
Speaker 6: And they called it a.

850
00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:58,400
Speaker 1: Drug in addiction program, and they took they stopped.

851
00:39:58,440 --> 00:39:59,560
Speaker 6: They got three.

852
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:02,200
Speaker 1: Stops for drugs, ten grams of weed, a dude with

853
00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:06,960
Speaker 1: some gummies, and somebody who had no uh prescription pills

854
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:10,279
Speaker 1: with no prescription And that was in eight months. But

855
00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:13,320
Speaker 1: in that same eight months, they confiscated a million dollars

856
00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:17,000
Speaker 1: from people getting on the plane of course. Yeah yeah,

857
00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:21,960
Speaker 1: uh civil ascid forfeiture, yeah, which I yeah, and yeah.

858
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:25,320
Speaker 1: So basically they were taking money from people who didn't

859
00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:27,640
Speaker 1: really and and it's a shakedown, cause if I wouldn't

860
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:29,160
Speaker 1: had money on me, they would have said, where'd you

861
00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:31,080
Speaker 1: get this money from? We think it's drugs? Were charging

862
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:33,239
Speaker 1: the money s. Do you wanna get on this flight?

863
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:35,200
Speaker 1: You wanna argue with us, maybe go to jail, or

864
00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:36,640
Speaker 1: you wanna get on this flight, then you could fly

865
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:38,319
Speaker 1: back here, get an attorney and try to figure out

866
00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:40,160
Speaker 1: how to get this money back, which you won't, which

867
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:44,800
Speaker 1: you won't exactly. So yeah, what's happening now is basically

868
00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:50,279
Speaker 1: they're uh, they're accusing, uh, they're saying that they're you know,

869
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:53,160
Speaker 1: there's no wrongdoing on their part, they're allowed to do it,

870
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:57,080
Speaker 1: and they're trying to get the case dismissed. But we've

871
00:40:57,080 --> 00:40:59,640
Speaker 1: had more people that have joined the case and no

872
00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:02,000
Speaker 1: money was taken from me or eric Andre. But now

873
00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:03,680
Speaker 1: some of the people in the case are people who

874
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:05,359
Speaker 1: actually had their money seeds.

875
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:08,920
Speaker 10: You're talking about a more brazen version of what happens.

876
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:10,440
Speaker 10: And you already get put in the system in the

877
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:13,080
Speaker 10: first place, where you got to pay for those buy

878
00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:15,720
Speaker 10: classes or whatever they might be. That's all third party

879
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:19,960
Speaker 10: you organizations that aren't governmental, they're just a company that's

880
00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:21,440
Speaker 10: set up to take your money.

881
00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:24,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think the way Atlanta Airport is set

882
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:28,520
Speaker 1: up is it's patrolled by Atlanta Police Department, but it's

883
00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:31,640
Speaker 1: in Clayton County's jurisdiction. So what it looked like to

884
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:33,360
Speaker 1: me is they were just kind of using the airport

885
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:37,000
Speaker 1: as their own little piggybag and Okay, this person looks

886
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:39,520
Speaker 1: like they might have something. They were definitely profiling because

887
00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:42,279
Speaker 1: they're like, Okay, who looks like they have something, And Okay,

888
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:44,680
Speaker 1: let's see if they have cash. And it was a

889
00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:46,280
Speaker 1: lot of people that'd be like, well, why would someone

890
00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:49,640
Speaker 1: have that much cash? And first of all, it's US currency.

891
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:51,960
Speaker 1: Second of all, this is Atlanta, this is a city.

892
00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:55,880
Speaker 1: It's everything operates off cash. We got a big strip

893
00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:59,440
Speaker 1: club industry, big nightlife industry. We've got I mean I

894
00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:00,040
Speaker 1: get paid in.

895
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:02,280
Speaker 6: Yeah.

896
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:04,959
Speaker 1: So yeah, I just think that somebody shouldn't have cash

897
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:07,080
Speaker 1: and that it should just be taken from that's ridiculous

898
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:07,279
Speaker 1: to me.

899
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:09,640
Speaker 3: Well, here comes back to like bad incentives within the

900
00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:12,359
Speaker 3: drug wars that a significant amount of that revenue goes

901
00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:15,440
Speaker 3: directly back to propitiatory law enforcement offices, and that's actually

902
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:17,520
Speaker 3: how they raise a lot of their resume for their

903
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:20,680
Speaker 3: operating budget. So the VIDOJ did a big, you know

904
00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:23,480
Speaker 3: investigation first in Missouri after you know, they had up

905
00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:25,839
Speaker 3: people there and what they found was like this one

906
00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:28,320
Speaker 3: incident happened and then you know, things happened after that,

907
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:30,319
Speaker 3: but it was a lot of other foundational stuff where

908
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:32,799
Speaker 3: there's emails from the city council to the police chief saying,

909
00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:34,640
Speaker 3: we need a ten percent increase in revenue.

910
00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:35,239
Speaker 2: What are you going to do?

911
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:37,760
Speaker 3: And now they're harassing the community members and they're actually

912
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:40,600
Speaker 3: putting cops and like these spots where like they're having

913
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:42,759
Speaker 3: to harass to sent and finally when something happened, they're like,

914
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:44,840
Speaker 3: we've had enough, and like this is the things that

915
00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:47,399
Speaker 3: start to happen. And so these horrible incentives and drug

916
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:49,520
Speaker 3: cases are the ones that bring in the quickest, easiest

917
00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:51,160
Speaker 3: revenue when you're able to suspect drugs on it.

918
00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:52,200
Speaker 2: So that's what happens.

919
00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:54,240
Speaker 8: Yeah, what'd you call it? Ghost dope?

920
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:54,600
Speaker 6: Yeah?

921
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:59,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, So that's that's another part of like what you're saying, Clayton,

922
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:02,440
Speaker 4: is this describing a situation where someone is able to

923
00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:06,520
Speaker 4: fight back to seek redress for what's happening. And we

924
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:10,120
Speaker 4: see so many people, I think again targeted because it's

925
00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:15,400
Speaker 4: known they it's assumed they will not have the means

926
00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:18,479
Speaker 4: to survive the length of time it takes to fight

927
00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:19,080
Speaker 4: the system.

928
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:19,439
Speaker 6: Right.

929
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:23,279
Speaker 4: So with with this in mind, you know, we see

930
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:26,680
Speaker 4: again this is something that can affect everyone, like Jason,

931
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:28,560
Speaker 4: like you were saying, he said, And if you don't

932
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:30,879
Speaker 4: think it can happen to you, it can happen to you.

933
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:35,239
Speaker 4: And with this, like we've we've laid a lot of

934
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:38,920
Speaker 4: groundwork here and you guys, shows are such deep dives

935
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:42,960
Speaker 4: for firsthand knowledge like Bone Valley, wrongful conviction, War on drugs.

936
00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:45,480
Speaker 8: I think no, I think we open it up to

937
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:46,320
Speaker 8: the audience.

938
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:50,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, let's get some let's because we can't answer the questions,

939
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:52,520
Speaker 4: but these guys in the middle probably can't.

940
00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:57,799
Speaker 9: So yeah, I want to just make one statement before

941
00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:00,640
Speaker 9: we do that, on asset for for sure, because since

942
00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:04,360
Speaker 9: twenty fourteen, this was first reported to Washington Post, police

943
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:08,120
Speaker 9: have stolen more money and property from civilians every year.

944
00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:09,880
Speaker 2: Than all the robberies combined.

945
00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:12,160
Speaker 9: And you can look that up. It's five billion to

946
00:44:12,239 --> 00:44:14,840
Speaker 9: three and a half billion. And that was twenty fourteen

947
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:17,280
Speaker 9: and since then nothing's changed. And it's because of that

948
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:19,279
Speaker 9: because they don't have to prove a crime. They just

949
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:21,360
Speaker 9: take your money. They go, we think you might have

950
00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:23,080
Speaker 9: been involved in some work.

951
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:25,200
Speaker 6: They don't even charge you with the crime.

952
00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:26,400
Speaker 5: You don't need to arrested.

953
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:28,720
Speaker 2: No, there's no condotion requirement that you're.

954
00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:31,120
Speaker 6: Pretty charging your money.

955
00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:34,279
Speaker 3: The state of Georgia versus one hundred, one hundred and

956
00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:37,280
Speaker 3: seven thousand dollars or in nineteen eighty five Corolla.

957
00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:39,120
Speaker 8: There's no recourse.

958
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:40,799
Speaker 6: Well, you could challenge it.

959
00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:42,279
Speaker 8: A lot of yeah, but a lot yeah.

960
00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:44,360
Speaker 3: A lot of the forfeitures are such little money, and

961
00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:47,520
Speaker 3: you'd be like a voucher or something, six hundred dollars

962
00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:49,719
Speaker 3: from you, You're going to hire defense attorney for five

963
00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:51,840
Speaker 3: grand to get your money. All these good default judgments

964
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:53,759
Speaker 3: most of the time anyway, don't. People don't challenge it,

965
00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:55,719
Speaker 3: and it's a very low barrier. It's from unders of

966
00:44:55,719 --> 00:44:56,879
Speaker 3: the evidence normally, which is like.

967
00:44:56,840 --> 00:44:58,480
Speaker 8: How are you more likely than not? How are you

968
00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:06,080
Speaker 8: getting to court when they take your car? Right?

969
00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:17,799
Speaker 7: So, I just wanted to start opening everybody here being

970
00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:20,320
Speaker 7: able to ask questions here with a question to you, guys,

971
00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:24,640
Speaker 7: I've never had to hire an attorney for a criminal thing.

972
00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:26,680
Speaker 7: I have no idea what that looks like. I have

973
00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:29,080
Speaker 7: no idea how to do that. I probably don't have

974
00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:31,120
Speaker 7: the money to hire the right attorney to get me

975
00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:34,759
Speaker 7: out of something intense like this. Are there any resources

976
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:38,719
Speaker 7: out there for someone who has been arrested they can

977
00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:41,000
Speaker 7: look for, like a pro bono attorney who would work

978
00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:43,880
Speaker 7: on their behalf or is it we really just have

979
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:47,600
Speaker 7: to rely on the attorney that's assigned to us when

980
00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:48,520
Speaker 7: we go to prison.

981
00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:53,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I'm sure you have. Yeah, I mean it's

982
00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:55,880
Speaker 3: few and far between. There is some and even a

983
00:45:55,920 --> 00:45:58,839
Speaker 3: public defender if you have financial means, if you're not

984
00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:00,799
Speaker 3: a below a certain thing rushole. A lot of times

985
00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:03,160
Speaker 3: they you know, they kind of really can't provide one

986
00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:05,839
Speaker 3: to you either, and so it's tough. There's some law

987
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:08,759
Speaker 3: firms that do some pro boner work, you know, on

988
00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:11,040
Speaker 3: that with criminal defense, but a lot of the times

989
00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:13,799
Speaker 3: it's either the public defender or you kind of trying

990
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:15,080
Speaker 3: to figure out our scrape around.

991
00:46:15,239 --> 00:46:16,759
Speaker 2: I mean, it's it's it's tough.

992
00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:19,040
Speaker 3: I mean, public defense is one of the most underfunded

993
00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:22,160
Speaker 3: systems that we have, and Sore already had a disadvantage

994
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:25,000
Speaker 3: going against the government, and then we underfund our public

995
00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:28,520
Speaker 3: defense system pretty egregiously. There's federal lawsuits all across the

996
00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:30,640
Speaker 3: country on that type of disparity.

997
00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:33,560
Speaker 8: So yeah, you're yeah, good luck.

998
00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:35,359
Speaker 2: That's why a lot of people play.

999
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:36,240
Speaker 6: I mean, yeah, that's what happens.

1000
00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:38,040
Speaker 11: Yeah, I'll just jump One of the things that you know,

1001
00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:42,360
Speaker 11: I hear a lot is that the post conviction process

1002
00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:45,160
Speaker 11: is so daunting that storytelling is actually one of the

1003
00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:47,160
Speaker 11: most effective ways to change the narrative.

1004
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:49,600
Speaker 12: I mean, we're all up here because of false narratives.

1005
00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:52,120
Speaker 11: I mean, if you look at you know, Jason's how

1006
00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:54,239
Speaker 11: many how many people have you had on the program three?

1007
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:57,719
Speaker 9: I think we're three hundred and sixty something episodes so far,

1008
00:46:57,800 --> 00:46:59,480
Speaker 9: and we will never stop making.

1009
00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:01,480
Speaker 12: The who's been exonerated?

1010
00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:04,279
Speaker 11: So a false narrative has brought them into prison for

1011
00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:06,760
Speaker 11: years until something happens and they're cleared.

1012
00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:09,239
Speaker 12: The War on drugs, you could look at that.

1013
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:13,040
Speaker 11: As I remember this just like the demonization and the

1014
00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:16,799
Speaker 11: dehumanization of people and just scaring people into thinking that,

1015
00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:19,280
Speaker 11: you know, black people are going to have this crack

1016
00:47:19,520 --> 00:47:22,839
Speaker 11: mania and they're going to have superhuman strength. We need

1017
00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:24,960
Speaker 11: to protect it, we need to write stronger laws. I

1018
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:27,160
Speaker 11: mean that was part of it too, and so these

1019
00:47:27,239 --> 00:47:29,319
Speaker 11: narratives that get built. I mean, I'll just tell you

1020
00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:32,839
Speaker 11: in the case with Leo Schofield, you know, at one

1021
00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:35,640
Speaker 11: point I've been working with him for several years and

1022
00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:38,560
Speaker 11: you know, we're kind of done with the investigation, and

1023
00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:40,359
Speaker 11: he said, you know, what do you think is going

1024
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:42,919
Speaker 11: to happen to me? And I said, Leo, I don't

1025
00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:47,000
Speaker 11: know the post conviction process. I mean, it's so daunting.

1026
00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:49,840
Speaker 11: The only thing I can promise you. I can't promise

1027
00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:51,480
Speaker 11: that you're going to get out of prison because of

1028
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:54,600
Speaker 11: this information, but I can promise you that we are

1029
00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:57,760
Speaker 11: changing the narrative of your story. And that's why these

1030
00:47:57,800 --> 00:48:00,719
Speaker 11: podcasts are so important, because as we can do the

1031
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:04,200
Speaker 11: deep dive into a topic and actually show the truth.

1032
00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:06,319
Speaker 12: And I think that's why you see so.

1033
00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:10,399
Speaker 11: Many exonerations, because if you have the storytelling aspect, whether

1034
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:13,680
Speaker 11: it's lawyers or writers or journalists who can come in

1035
00:48:13,719 --> 00:48:16,960
Speaker 11: and sort of expose this, it's really important. And it

1036
00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:19,239
Speaker 11: is a positive step because I have to be honest

1037
00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:21,400
Speaker 11: with the state of journalism right now is not that great.

1038
00:48:21,719 --> 00:48:23,040
Speaker 11: And so when you look at a lot of these

1039
00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:25,960
Speaker 11: communities that are having these crimes, a lot of times,

1040
00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:28,799
Speaker 11: the local reporters their biggest sources of the prosecutor and

1041
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:31,240
Speaker 11: the police. They don't get the other side of the story,

1042
00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:33,920
Speaker 11: so they just kind of repeat the state narrative and

1043
00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:37,560
Speaker 11: that's how it just perpetuates and grows until some people

1044
00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:38,839
Speaker 11: like us can come in and look at.

1045
00:48:38,719 --> 00:48:40,520
Speaker 12: It from a different angle and hopefully change it.

1046
00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:43,440
Speaker 7: You guys are really fun at parties, aren't you?

1047
00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:47,359
Speaker 6: On those Ben's line?

1048
00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:50,319
Speaker 9: By the way, anyone, I hope somebody asks a question

1049
00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:52,160
Speaker 9: about bail reform by the way, just saying.

1050
00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:56,920
Speaker 7: Oh yeah, hey, does anyone have a question about bail reform? Okay, okay,

1051
00:48:56,920 --> 00:48:59,160
Speaker 7: but really would anyone like to ask a question of

1052
00:48:59,200 --> 00:48:59,600
Speaker 7: the panel?

1053
00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:01,399
Speaker 12: Hi?

1054
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:03,680
Speaker 13: I just want to say, I'm thankful for what you

1055
00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:08,239
Speaker 13: guys do, But what's a way that US citizens can

1056
00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:12,160
Speaker 13: really make a difference outside of the narrative? Because there

1057
00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:17,719
Speaker 13: is a larger crime that's more than the citizens. It's

1058
00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:19,920
Speaker 13: like the government, Like how do you come against that

1059
00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:27,200
Speaker 13: when you can sell weed now but you're not getting

1060
00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:29,319
Speaker 13: the people out that you got on petty crimes? Or

1061
00:49:29,360 --> 00:49:31,839
Speaker 13: like how do you come against a government that is

1062
00:49:32,719 --> 00:49:33,560
Speaker 13: backed by the NRA?

1063
00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:34,080
Speaker 2: You know?

1064
00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:37,000
Speaker 13: Like so it's big companies that pay for the media,

1065
00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:39,799
Speaker 13: that pay for like how things get ran, and they're

1066
00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:40,840
Speaker 13: also behind the government.

1067
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:45,319
Speaker 9: I think the first thing is to learn what's really

1068
00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:51,400
Speaker 9: going on. There's a fantastic newsletter called alex Copaganda Newsletter.

1069
00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:52,560
Speaker 2: You mentioned copaganda.

1070
00:49:52,719 --> 00:49:57,399
Speaker 9: It's alig alec Apostrophes Copaganda Newsletter, and that will give

1071
00:49:57,440 --> 00:49:59,680
Speaker 9: you a perspective on I think a lot of the

1072
00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:03,760
Speaker 9: questions that you're so properly raising. And thanks for that question,

1073
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:07,600
Speaker 9: by the way, and yeah, and since nobody asked about

1074
00:50:07,640 --> 00:50:11,160
Speaker 9: bail reform, I'm just going to say, you know, back

1075
00:50:11,160 --> 00:50:13,759
Speaker 9: to the question that was posed a minute ago. You know,

1076
00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:16,319
Speaker 9: you better hope with your public defender that you're not

1077
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:19,520
Speaker 9: in jail awaiting trial, because if you are, that creates

1078
00:50:19,560 --> 00:50:23,279
Speaker 9: a whole nother cascade of problems, right if you think

1079
00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:26,480
Speaker 9: about it. If you too poor to post bail, then

1080
00:50:26,600 --> 00:50:29,720
Speaker 9: you can't not only can't assist in your own defense,

1081
00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:31,560
Speaker 9: you can't meet with your attorney. They're not going to

1082
00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:33,360
Speaker 9: come to the jail to meet with you. They're busy,

1083
00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:37,440
Speaker 9: and you can't take care of your family. You can't

1084
00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:39,520
Speaker 9: go to your job, you can't do any of the

1085
00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:42,440
Speaker 9: things that you would be doing otherwise. Jails are generally

1086
00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:45,680
Speaker 9: more violent and dangerous than prisons. People think that's counterintuitive,

1087
00:50:46,040 --> 00:50:49,480
Speaker 9: but it's true. So you're subjected to the most horrible

1088
00:50:49,480 --> 00:50:53,200
Speaker 9: conditions and deprivation. And then on top of that, you

1089
00:50:53,239 --> 00:50:55,480
Speaker 9: don't see this on the TV shows, But if you're

1090
00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:58,920
Speaker 9: in on because you can't post bail and then you're

1091
00:50:58,920 --> 00:51:01,160
Speaker 9: being brought to trial, first of all, prosecutor can offer

1092
00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:02,759
Speaker 9: you listen, you're going to stay here for two three

1093
00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:04,400
Speaker 9: years before we get around to you unless you want

1094
00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:05,640
Speaker 9: to plead guilty and go home.

1095
00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:07,000
Speaker 2: So you got that pressure.

1096
00:51:07,040 --> 00:51:09,920
Speaker 9: But if you decide to go to trial, now, they

1097
00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:12,439
Speaker 9: wake you up around two in the morning, they don't

1098
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:14,120
Speaker 9: feed you, They put you in a bay, they put

1099
00:51:14,120 --> 00:51:15,440
Speaker 9: you a waiting room, then they put you in a van.

1100
00:51:15,520 --> 00:51:17,880
Speaker 9: Then they take you to another jail in the courthouse

1101
00:51:17,880 --> 00:51:20,799
Speaker 9: and you're held there. You're also not fed. Then by

1102
00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:23,359
Speaker 9: the time you get into the courtroom you look half

1103
00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:26,680
Speaker 9: crazy because you're sleep deprived, you're starving, and also you've

1104
00:51:26,680 --> 00:51:31,120
Speaker 9: been subjected to the most brutal conditions imaginable for weeks, months,

1105
00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:35,120
Speaker 9: or years. Think about Khalif Brouder and that whole horrible story. Right,

1106
00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:40,160
Speaker 9: rest in peace, But so the bail reform. I just

1107
00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:43,000
Speaker 9: wanted to mention this because bail reform is so misunderstood

1108
00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:44,640
Speaker 9: and it's so important for people to understand it.

1109
00:51:44,640 --> 00:51:49,320
Speaker 2: It makes us much safer. And every study that's been.

1110
00:51:49,239 --> 00:51:52,560
Speaker 9: Done has shown that bail reform decreases the probability of

1111
00:51:52,600 --> 00:51:55,360
Speaker 9: the person who didn't go to jail pre trial committing

1112
00:51:55,360 --> 00:51:58,560
Speaker 9: a new crime dramatically. And it makes sense because I

1113
00:51:58,560 --> 00:52:00,680
Speaker 9: think you were talking about it before. If you do

1114
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:03,640
Speaker 9: go to jail, your problem's just got a lot worse.

1115
00:52:03,760 --> 00:52:06,319
Speaker 9: Even if you're there for three days a week, you're

1116
00:52:06,360 --> 00:52:09,240
Speaker 9: losing all the things that Clayton talked about, and now

1117
00:52:09,320 --> 00:52:11,400
Speaker 9: you may not have a choice but to commit a

1118
00:52:11,400 --> 00:52:13,160
Speaker 9: crime if you want to eat, or if you want

1119
00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:15,640
Speaker 9: to feed your kids, or whatever it might be. So

1120
00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:19,960
Speaker 9: bail reform is one of the most successful policies that

1121
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:23,000
Speaker 9: I've seen in my thirty years of doing this work.

1122
00:52:23,320 --> 00:52:26,520
Speaker 9: But politicians are trying to They'll take one case of

1123
00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:28,960
Speaker 9: somebody who got out on bail and when it hit

1124
00:52:29,360 --> 00:52:31,800
Speaker 9: you know, some old lady over the head at an ATM,

1125
00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:34,359
Speaker 9: and you know, they'll make that into a big thing,

1126
00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:36,640
Speaker 9: and of course the news will report that because it's

1127
00:52:36,640 --> 00:52:39,600
Speaker 9: better for clickbait. Right, nobody wants to report good news stories.

1128
00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:41,200
Speaker 9: No one wants to report the things that we're talking

1129
00:52:41,239 --> 00:52:45,480
Speaker 9: about now. But bail reform makes us safer and saves

1130
00:52:45,560 --> 00:52:47,680
Speaker 9: us huge amounts of money. Remember the five hundred and

1131
00:52:47,719 --> 00:52:49,760
Speaker 9: sixty five thousand dollars year to keep somebody in riker's

1132
00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:51,680
Speaker 9: ould who hasn't been convicted of a crime.

1133
00:52:51,840 --> 00:52:54,120
Speaker 4: So that is so then to that question, that's one

1134
00:52:54,120 --> 00:52:57,800
Speaker 4: of the things average person could do is maybe engage

1135
00:52:57,840 --> 00:53:00,280
Speaker 4: with their legislators about bail reform.

1136
00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:04,840
Speaker 3: Absolutely, yeah, and give a damn about your local elections.

1137
00:53:04,920 --> 00:53:07,640
Speaker 3: Like we can talk about president and they're all important,

1138
00:53:07,640 --> 00:53:10,600
Speaker 3: but your sheriff's elected, your district attorney's elected, a lot

1139
00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:12,839
Speaker 3: of judges are elected where you're at, Like, those are

1140
00:53:12,840 --> 00:53:15,719
Speaker 3: the people making the decisions. So you talk about bail reform, Yeah,

1141
00:53:15,719 --> 00:53:17,040
Speaker 3: you can be able to pass a law, but if

1142
00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:18,719
Speaker 3: you get a district attorney that says this is how

1143
00:53:18,760 --> 00:53:20,200
Speaker 3: we're going to handle our jails, or you get a

1144
00:53:20,200 --> 00:53:21,920
Speaker 3: sheriff that says that this is how we're going to

1145
00:53:21,960 --> 00:53:23,440
Speaker 3: handle our jails, or this is where we're going to

1146
00:53:23,480 --> 00:53:25,960
Speaker 3: prioritize resources, like those are the elections that don't get

1147
00:53:25,960 --> 00:53:28,760
Speaker 3: as much attention, particularly when they're not in a presidential cycle,

1148
00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:30,560
Speaker 3: like those are the ones you really need to care about.

1149
00:53:30,560 --> 00:53:33,000
Speaker 3: That's where you see that kind of systemic change happen

1150
00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:35,200
Speaker 3: in these areas. And so I know, and you know

1151
00:53:35,239 --> 00:53:36,520
Speaker 3: in Houston when they went through a lot of their

1152
00:53:36,520 --> 00:53:38,600
Speaker 3: their bail reform, stuff like that probably doesn't happen if

1153
00:53:38,600 --> 00:53:40,960
Speaker 3: there isn't certain actors and you know, within that that

1154
00:53:41,080 --> 00:53:43,640
Speaker 3: realm and things like that, and that's what really really

1155
00:53:43,719 --> 00:53:45,560
Speaker 3: matters to a lot.

1156
00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:46,000
Speaker 6: Of this stuff.

1157
00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:49,040
Speaker 3: You can have, I know, how many bills get passed.

1158
00:53:49,360 --> 00:53:51,640
Speaker 3: A good example this is onforfeiture in New Mexico banned

1159
00:53:51,719 --> 00:53:52,960
Speaker 3: criminal for civil forfeiture.

1160
00:53:53,040 --> 00:53:54,600
Speaker 5: It was only criminal city.

1161
00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:55,480
Speaker 8: If Albuquerque just.

1162
00:53:55,480 --> 00:53:57,319
Speaker 3: Had some folks there that were like, well, I guess

1163
00:53:57,320 --> 00:53:58,719
Speaker 3: it doesn't it doesn't apply to us. We're going to

1164
00:53:58,760 --> 00:54:01,160
Speaker 3: continue to do this, like all right, well there you go.

1165
00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:02,680
Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, they can have the best law in

1166
00:54:02,719 --> 00:54:04,080
Speaker 3: the books, but they'll be able to figure out a

1167
00:54:04,120 --> 00:54:05,279
Speaker 3: way to navigate around that.

1168
00:54:05,320 --> 00:54:06,760
Speaker 2: You can pass earn.

1169
00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:08,480
Speaker 3: Credits where you allow people to get her in credits

1170
00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:10,839
Speaker 3: in prison, but if you're a prison warrior, share doesn't

1171
00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:11,600
Speaker 3: want to give those out.

1172
00:54:12,280 --> 00:54:13,000
Speaker 2: Ain't gonna happen.

1173
00:54:13,080 --> 00:54:15,640
Speaker 3: So it really is that local, hyper local elections that

1174
00:54:15,680 --> 00:54:17,520
Speaker 3: really matter on the criminal justice level.

1175
00:54:18,800 --> 00:54:22,400
Speaker 14: So I wanted to talk about prosecutors in this process.

1176
00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:25,520
Speaker 14: You guys talked a little bit earlier about kind of

1177
00:54:25,560 --> 00:54:28,200
Speaker 14: the way things are perceived in the media, with you know,

1178
00:54:28,320 --> 00:54:31,680
Speaker 14: police and everything being kind of pro police. I think

1179
00:54:31,680 --> 00:54:34,320
Speaker 14: a lot of times there's also a perception that prosecutors

1180
00:54:34,360 --> 00:54:36,799
Speaker 14: everything they're doing is noble and good, and I think

1181
00:54:36,840 --> 00:54:40,560
Speaker 14: that's oftentimes the case. But I'm curious your perception about

1182
00:54:40,760 --> 00:54:45,040
Speaker 14: the concept of like prose prosecutorial misconduct, kind of the

1183
00:54:45,080 --> 00:54:48,480
Speaker 14: politics of play, the pressure there under to secure convictions,

1184
00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:50,879
Speaker 14: just kind of in broad terms of your thoughts on that.

1185
00:54:51,640 --> 00:54:54,680
Speaker 2: You've had a perspective on this, take it to like

1186
00:54:54,719 --> 00:54:55,640
Speaker 2: a micro level.

1187
00:54:56,480 --> 00:54:59,040
Speaker 11: I think one of the things that happens with prosecutors is,

1188
00:54:59,120 --> 00:55:02,200
Speaker 11: you know, their job is defined to their job is

1189
00:55:02,239 --> 00:55:04,040
Speaker 11: not to win convictions.

1190
00:55:03,520 --> 00:55:05,120
Speaker 12: It's to pursue justice.

1191
00:55:05,680 --> 00:55:08,319
Speaker 11: And so but you know, there's ego and career that

1192
00:55:08,360 --> 00:55:10,640
Speaker 11: gets involved in that, and so you know, you want

1193
00:55:10,640 --> 00:55:12,400
Speaker 11: to work your way up to be chief prosecutor or

1194
00:55:12,440 --> 00:55:13,520
Speaker 11: maybe a judge someday.

1195
00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:16,680
Speaker 12: You don't want, you know, a bunch of open cases

1196
00:55:16,800 --> 00:55:17,680
Speaker 12: or lost cases.

1197
00:55:17,880 --> 00:55:20,560
Speaker 11: And so I think what happens is it's like every

1198
00:55:20,600 --> 00:55:23,719
Speaker 11: other business in terms of capitalism. You know, you have

1199
00:55:23,800 --> 00:55:26,560
Speaker 11: prosecutors that are winning at all costs and they're willing

1200
00:55:26,640 --> 00:55:28,719
Speaker 11: to cut corners, and a lot of that is that

1201
00:55:28,760 --> 00:55:31,440
Speaker 11: what Jason just mentioned, that tunnel vision. That part of

1202
00:55:31,480 --> 00:55:34,400
Speaker 11: your story doesn't fit my narrative. So I'm not going there.

1203
00:55:34,560 --> 00:55:37,279
Speaker 11: I'm doing my narrative, and my narrative is this, and

1204
00:55:37,680 --> 00:55:39,160
Speaker 11: that's how they get caught up in this thing.

1205
00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:41,800
Speaker 12: And I've talked to a lot of prosecutors who have had.

1206
00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:44,880
Speaker 11: Wrongful convictions, and you know, they attribute it to tunnel

1207
00:55:44,920 --> 00:55:49,279
Speaker 11: vision and wanting to win the case, and so they

1208
00:55:49,360 --> 00:55:51,239
Speaker 11: end up making a lot of decisions that you know,

1209
00:55:52,160 --> 00:55:52,840
Speaker 11: cost people.

1210
00:55:52,719 --> 00:55:54,880
Speaker 12: Their lives basically, and they like to see themselves as

1211
00:55:55,000 --> 00:55:57,239
Speaker 12: very noble and they don't want to see themselves as

1212
00:55:57,280 --> 00:55:58,440
Speaker 12: somebody who's doing something.

1213
00:55:58,920 --> 00:56:02,319
Speaker 11: You know, frankly, there's no accountability for prosecutors. One of

1214
00:56:02,320 --> 00:56:05,279
Speaker 11: the things that you know, sometimes I sometimes ask prosecutors

1215
00:56:05,320 --> 00:56:08,319
Speaker 11: to talk to me about the cases, and they don't

1216
00:56:08,360 --> 00:56:10,080
Speaker 11: want to talk to me because they know I'm not

1217
00:56:10,160 --> 00:56:13,200
Speaker 11: doing the you know, the CSI type stuff.

1218
00:56:13,200 --> 00:56:14,640
Speaker 12: We're going to make them look like, how did you

1219
00:56:14,640 --> 00:56:16,760
Speaker 12: catch the bad guy? How'd you do it? What genius

1220
00:56:16,800 --> 00:56:18,359
Speaker 12: did you bring to the table for that.

1221
00:56:18,480 --> 00:56:22,040
Speaker 11: I'm asking questions about cases that went wrong, and you know,

1222
00:56:22,080 --> 00:56:23,120
Speaker 11: they don't always want.

1223
00:56:23,000 --> 00:56:23,480
Speaker 12: To talk to me.

1224
00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:26,359
Speaker 11: One of the things that is really disturbing about that

1225
00:56:26,480 --> 00:56:29,200
Speaker 11: is like they'll say, well, we don't do our cases.

1226
00:56:28,920 --> 00:56:29,400
Speaker 2: In the media.

1227
00:56:29,440 --> 00:56:31,840
Speaker 11: We do them in the court of law, where like

1228
00:56:31,920 --> 00:56:35,439
Speaker 11: all the integrity is apparently. You know, if a prosecutor

1229
00:56:35,719 --> 00:56:38,920
Speaker 11: screws up a case so badly and it gets overturned

1230
00:56:38,920 --> 00:56:41,719
Speaker 11: at a higher court and appellate court, the worst thing

1231
00:56:41,719 --> 00:56:44,640
Speaker 11: that ever happens to a prosecutors maybe he gets called

1232
00:56:44,640 --> 00:56:47,759
Speaker 11: out in the opinion of that court saying the prosecutor

1233
00:56:47,840 --> 00:56:51,120
Speaker 11: aired in withholding evidence that would have been exculpatory.

1234
00:56:51,360 --> 00:56:53,040
Speaker 12: And then he goes on and does to his next

1235
00:56:53,160 --> 00:56:54,440
Speaker 12: next case, next conviction.

1236
00:56:55,120 --> 00:56:58,080
Speaker 11: If I was withholding evidence, let's just say, like I

1237
00:56:58,120 --> 00:57:01,680
Speaker 11: had Leo confess to me, Schofield confessed to me, and

1238
00:57:01,719 --> 00:57:03,560
Speaker 11: I said, gee, that doesn't fit my narrative. I'm going

1239
00:57:03,600 --> 00:57:05,280
Speaker 11: to put that to the side and not tell people

1240
00:57:05,280 --> 00:57:08,359
Speaker 11: about that. And then later on it's discovered that I

1241
00:57:08,480 --> 00:57:09,560
Speaker 11: was withholding evidence.

1242
00:57:09,760 --> 00:57:11,240
Speaker 12: My books would be pulled from the shelves.

1243
00:57:11,239 --> 00:57:13,600
Speaker 11: I probably wouldn't get a chance to do another story

1244
00:57:13,880 --> 00:57:16,200
Speaker 11: because that would be seen as such such a horrific

1245
00:57:16,600 --> 00:57:20,600
Speaker 11: violation of integrity. And yet why is it that prosecutors

1246
00:57:20,640 --> 00:57:22,480
Speaker 11: can do that all the time and go on to

1247
00:57:22,560 --> 00:57:25,280
Speaker 11: the next cases, because there's zero accountability.

1248
00:57:25,440 --> 00:57:27,280
Speaker 12: And that's the thing I think that really needs to change.

1249
00:57:27,320 --> 00:57:30,000
Speaker 10: Couldn't you even be prosecuted yourself for withholding that kind

1250
00:57:30,040 --> 00:57:30,600
Speaker 10: of information?

1251
00:57:30,920 --> 00:57:33,520
Speaker 9: Yeah, as a centien like first obstruction, or as a

1252
00:57:33,520 --> 00:57:37,200
Speaker 9: defense lawyer, yeah, But as a prosecutor, you have absolute immunity.

1253
00:57:37,520 --> 00:57:41,880
Speaker 9: Think about those words, absolute immunity, so nothing you do

1254
00:57:42,000 --> 00:57:44,840
Speaker 9: can bounce back on you. And so then and you

1255
00:57:44,920 --> 00:57:49,080
Speaker 9: also have almost total power. And we know what power

1256
00:57:49,120 --> 00:57:50,840
Speaker 9: does to people, right, And I think there are people,

1257
00:57:50,920 --> 00:57:52,680
Speaker 9: I think there are cops that go into the job

1258
00:57:52,960 --> 00:57:56,880
Speaker 9: very idealistic, and then they change. The power does something

1259
00:57:56,920 --> 00:57:59,440
Speaker 9: to them, right, and the culture does something to them,

1260
00:57:59,480 --> 00:58:03,040
Speaker 9: and the train And then with prosecutors, they're human as well,

1261
00:58:03,400 --> 00:58:05,520
Speaker 9: and they some of them I think, go in, you know,

1262
00:58:05,920 --> 00:58:09,280
Speaker 9: very noble aspirations, but then they they become ambitious and

1263
00:58:09,280 --> 00:58:11,320
Speaker 9: when they go back I have the criminal defense lawyer

1264
00:58:11,320 --> 00:58:14,360
Speaker 9: that I know in California. Uh, Andrew Stein, he told

1265
00:58:14,400 --> 00:58:16,680
Speaker 9: me that he sometimes in his closing argument, he'll say

1266
00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:20,320
Speaker 9: to the jury when the prosecutor goes back to their

1267
00:58:20,400 --> 00:58:25,000
Speaker 9: office for you know, tonight, this afternoon, after they've finished

1268
00:58:25,040 --> 00:58:28,200
Speaker 9: the case, no one's gonna ask them, did you do

1269
00:58:28,440 --> 00:58:32,080
Speaker 9: justice today? They're gonna say, did you win? And that's

1270
00:58:32,120 --> 00:58:33,800
Speaker 9: what they want to do. They want to win, and

1271
00:58:33,880 --> 00:58:37,000
Speaker 9: it becomes a game. And the problem is they have

1272
00:58:37,160 --> 00:58:41,880
Speaker 9: the ability to mess with to mess with people's lives

1273
00:58:42,400 --> 00:58:45,120
Speaker 9: to an absolute extreme. And when they do that, in

1274
00:58:45,160 --> 00:58:47,640
Speaker 9: Prosecutorma's conduct is one of the leading causes. You'll hear

1275
00:58:47,680 --> 00:58:49,920
Speaker 9: it again and again on the Wrongful Convictions podcast. It's

1276
00:58:49,920 --> 00:58:52,640
Speaker 9: one of the leading causes of wrongful convictions. Polaves the

1277
00:58:52,720 --> 00:58:55,520
Speaker 9: Prosecutormi's contuct also lying forensic people, et cetera.

1278
00:58:55,600 --> 00:58:57,200
Speaker 2: But the fact is that.

1279
00:58:58,640 --> 00:59:02,080
Speaker 9: They're incentivized to do that, and they're given the power

1280
00:59:02,120 --> 00:59:05,040
Speaker 9: even with Brady violations like Brady is a Brady versus Maryland,

1281
00:59:05,120 --> 00:59:07,680
Speaker 9: very famous Supreme Court case which says that prosecutors must

1282
00:59:07,720 --> 00:59:10,720
Speaker 9: turn over exculpatory evidence to the defense, but they get

1283
00:59:10,760 --> 00:59:13,720
Speaker 9: to decide what they think is exculpatory. So the wolf

1284
00:59:13,800 --> 00:59:17,600
Speaker 9: is literally guarding the henhouse. And when they get like

1285
00:59:17,640 --> 00:59:20,560
Speaker 9: I said, they get set, they're just gonna go and

1286
00:59:20,640 --> 00:59:22,640
Speaker 9: they're going to And the last thing I'll say on

1287
00:59:22,680 --> 00:59:26,680
Speaker 9: the subject is we should all care about this because

1288
00:59:26,720 --> 00:59:31,840
Speaker 9: when prosecutors frame an innocent person for a crime, sometimes

1289
00:59:31,840 --> 00:59:33,960
Speaker 9: they knew, let's face it, they knew they didn't commit it.

1290
00:59:33,960 --> 00:59:35,840
Speaker 9: We don't like to think about that, but it's true,

1291
00:59:35,920 --> 00:59:38,160
Speaker 9: it happens. Listen to the podcast if you haven't already,

1292
00:59:38,320 --> 00:59:39,000
Speaker 9: you'll hear it.

1293
00:59:38,920 --> 00:59:39,760
Speaker 2: Again and again.

1294
00:59:40,840 --> 00:59:45,280
Speaker 9: They are actually acting in service of the actual perpetrator,

1295
00:59:45,360 --> 00:59:50,640
Speaker 9: right that those forces of police and prosecutorial power are

1296
00:59:50,680 --> 00:59:54,600
Speaker 9: focused on protecting the person who committed this heinous crime.

1297
00:59:55,160 --> 00:59:59,960
Speaker 9: Because almost by definition, when you lock up the innocent guy,

1298
01:00:00,760 --> 01:00:04,040
Speaker 9: you're letting the guilty person remain great, you're becoming an

1299
01:00:04,040 --> 01:00:06,480
Speaker 9: accomplice well or or worse.

1300
01:00:06,800 --> 01:00:09,080
Speaker 7: Guys, I just want to say thank you so much

1301
01:00:09,240 --> 01:00:14,000
Speaker 7: for this conversation. Uh it has been it's been like heavy, right,

1302
01:00:14,080 --> 01:00:17,640
Speaker 7: really heavy. This is serious stuff. But you guys know,

1303
01:00:17,960 --> 01:00:19,919
Speaker 7: you know what you're doing, and you're exploring this every

1304
01:00:19,960 --> 01:00:22,640
Speaker 7: day on your podcasts. So as you said, Jason, I

1305
01:00:22,680 --> 01:00:25,240
Speaker 7: think the best thing everybody can do here is subscribe.

1306
01:00:25,400 --> 01:00:28,320
Speaker 7: To these podcasts, to wrongful convictions, to the War on

1307
01:00:28,440 --> 01:00:31,360
Speaker 7: drugs and to Bone Valley and even stuff they don't

1308
01:00:31,360 --> 01:00:33,120
Speaker 7: want you to know. Yeah, you can subscribe to us too,

1309
01:00:33,240 --> 01:00:33,760
Speaker 7: that's fine.

1310
01:00:33,920 --> 01:00:34,720
Speaker 8: We're not above it.

1311
01:00:34,920 --> 01:00:36,160
Speaker 12: Yeah yeah, yeah, sure we.

1312
01:00:36,440 --> 01:00:38,400
Speaker 2: Talk about it's a good show. Check it out.

1313
01:00:40,240 --> 01:00:41,680
Speaker 7: But really, thank you, guys.

1314
01:00:43,040 --> 01:00:44,280
Speaker 12: I think we're gonna end the show now.

1315
01:00:44,560 --> 01:00:46,760
Speaker 5: Second incredible conversation.

1316
01:00:46,880 --> 01:00:52,160
Speaker 4: Thank you to Guiltful Clay, thank you, thank.

1317
01:00:52,440 --> 01:01:00,840
Speaker 8: You so much, in the

1318
01:01:03,120 --> 01:01:07,200
Speaker 6: In the tin, and then depend