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Speaker 1: Hey, you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My

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Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb.

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Speaker 2: And I am Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday. So we

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Speaker 2: venture down down into the vault for an older episode

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Speaker 2: of the podcast. This one originally aired January eighteenth, twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty four, and it's part two of our series on

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Speaker 2: the diamond.

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Speaker 1: All right, here we go.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, the production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Hey are you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind?

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Speaker 1: My name is.

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Speaker 2: Robert Lamb and I am Joe McCormick, and we're back

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Speaker 2: with part two in our series on Diamonds. Now. In

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Speaker 2: the previous episode, we focused specifically on one strange question

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Speaker 2: about diamonds, which was our diamonds in one form or

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Speaker 2: another poisonous. This was the question that originally got me

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Speaker 2: interested in the subject of diamonds and a brief recap.

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Speaker 2: I came across it because of a passage in the

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Speaker 2: absolutely bonkers autobiography of the sixteenth century Italian sculptor named

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Speaker 2: Binvenudo Cellini, who told a story, among many other wild

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Speaker 2: and probably heavily embellished tales, about his enemies trying to

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Speaker 2: poison him with the powder of a pounded diamond while

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Speaker 2: he was in prison. And then from there we examined

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Speaker 2: some other sources from history, documenting the documenting and examining

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Speaker 2: the belief that diamonds or diamond powder could be used

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Speaker 2: as a lethal poison, and in the end it seemed

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Speaker 2: that the actual evidence of diamonds being reliably poisonous when

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Speaker 2: swallowed was sort of weak, but not weak enough that

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Speaker 2: I'd just like down a pixie stick full of it. Basically,

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Speaker 2: it seems there's sort of a dearth of high quality

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Speaker 2: modern evidence one way or the other. Seems kind of

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Speaker 2: doubtful that diamonds are poisonous, but not doubt full enough

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Speaker 2: that I would advise eating them. I'd avoid it. But

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Speaker 2: we are back today with part two to talk some

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Speaker 2: more about diamonds.

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Speaker 1: That's right, And as we mentioned in the last episode,

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Speaker 1: we figured it would be essential to talk a little

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Speaker 1: bit about like what diamonds are and roll through some

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Speaker 1: material you may be familiar with, you may may not,

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Speaker 1: you may have forgotten about it, but you know where

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Speaker 1: diamonds come from and what some of their major properties are. Right,

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Speaker 1: We'll start with the obvious, and this is highly subjective,

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Speaker 1: of course, but it's a popular view on diamonds, and

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Speaker 1: that is they're beautiful. A diamond receives white light, breaks

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Speaker 1: that white light like a prism, and then these resulting

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Speaker 1: colors hit the various facets of the diamond. What's more,

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Speaker 1: light that enters a faceted diamond, which you can do

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Speaker 1: from all sides, may bounce around in there several times

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Speaker 1: before shining back out again.

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Speaker 2: You know, it actually was making me wonder why sparkling

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Speaker 2: is sort of a general stand in for something that

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Speaker 2: is beautiful or something that catches the attention.

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Speaker 1: You know, Yeah, I think a part part of it

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Speaker 1: is just that we've all really drunk the kool aid

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Speaker 1: on how beautiful diamonds are, not only in our lifetimes

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Speaker 1: but but over the over centuries and centuries of pro

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Speaker 1: diamond propaganda. Because it is interesting to we'll get into

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Speaker 1: this in a bit like trying to figure out when

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Speaker 1: in history diamonds start becoming gems, Like there's a there's

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Speaker 1: there's definitely definitely seems to be a point in ancient

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Speaker 1: cultures where like a diamond's not a gem. It's useful

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Speaker 1: for cutting gems, but it's not a gem, and then

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Speaker 1: that shifts over time, so we'll get into that more

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Speaker 1: in a bit, But in terms of light entering the

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Speaker 1: diamond and what it does in there, here's another interesting fact.

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Speaker 1: This is one that I was reading about in an

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Speaker 1: excellent Nova article titled The Science Behind the Sparkle by

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Speaker 1: Robert Hazen. A diamond actually slows down light inside of

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Speaker 1: itself and does so like no other known colorless substance,

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Speaker 1: so compared to things like ice and water, for example,

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Speaker 1: the author here writes that a diamond slows light down

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Speaker 1: to less than eighty thousand miles per second, and that's

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Speaker 1: more than one hundred thousand miles per second slower than

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Speaker 1: in air. The slow down, Hazan rites, is complex and

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Speaker 1: has to do with electron interactions and the substance it's

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Speaker 1: traveling through, and it occurs with any matter, including air

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Speaker 1: and glass. And to put it all in context, the

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Speaker 1: speed of light in a vacuum is of course one

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Speaker 1: hundred and eighty six thousand miles per second. So anyway,

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Speaker 1: you can crunch the numbers, and I think crunching numbers

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Speaker 1: makes it actually feel a little more special when you

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Speaker 1: observed the sparkle here. But yeah, they do sparkle with

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Speaker 1: an almost otherworldly brilliance. There's a surreal dance of colors.

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Speaker 1: And even if you don't desire diamonds for yourself, again,

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Speaker 1: the desire for them is just so entrenched in our

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Speaker 1: culture that it's a part of our language. You know,

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Speaker 1: you're just referencing, like talking about something sparkle, even if

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Speaker 1: it's not a diamond. You're talking about something else, but

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Speaker 1: you're talking about it as if it were a diamond.

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Speaker 1: We talk about things like diamonds in the rough and

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Speaker 1: so forth. Now here's another thing you definitely already know

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Speaker 1: about diamonds. They're not only beautiful, they're very hard. Diamonds

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Speaker 1: are the hardest naturally occurring substance that we know of,

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Speaker 1: so hard in fact, that they have numerous industrial applications.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. And so one thing that has confused

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Speaker 2: me in the past is like the different terminology we

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Speaker 2: use for the strength or resilience of materials. Because if

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Speaker 2: we of course used terms like hard and tough and

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Speaker 2: all that in an informal way where they all kind

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Speaker 2: of mean the same thing, but they also have some

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Speaker 2: more specific kind of scientific definitions or definitions in industrial uses.

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Speaker 2: And it's I think illuminating to look at the difference.

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Speaker 2: So what is toughness versus hardness? As usually understood, toughness

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Speaker 2: is the ability of a material to absorb energy without

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Speaker 2: breaking or fracturing, whereas hardness is the ability of a

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Speaker 2: material to resist what's called plastic deformation, in other words,

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Speaker 2: to resist local changes to its shape from friction. So

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Speaker 2: to imagine concrete examples, these changes could be things like cutting, denting,

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Speaker 2: or scratching. So the harder a material is, the more

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Speaker 2: difficult it is to make a scratch or a dent

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Speaker 2: in its surface. Hard materials don't scratch easily. In fact,

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Speaker 2: they scratch other things, and you can usually tell which

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Speaker 2: material is harder by rubbing them together and seeing which

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Speaker 2: one scratches the other. Meanwhile, to come back to toughness,

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Speaker 2: brittleness is the opposite of toughness. The tougher material is,

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Speaker 2: the more energy it can absorb before it cracks. So

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Speaker 2: rubber is not hard, but it is tough. You might

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Speaker 2: be able to scratch it easily with a knife, but

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Speaker 2: you can also hit it really hard and it won't fracture. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 2: like you said, rob a diamond is the harder and

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Speaker 2: naturally occurring substance on Earth, so you can't scratch its

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Speaker 2: surface with a knife or any other normal material apart

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Speaker 2: from another diamond. It is going to be really, really

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Speaker 2: difficult to make a scratch or a cut in a diamond.

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Speaker 2: We need special apparatus for doing so. But while it's

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Speaker 2: the hardest natural material on Earth, it is not the toughest.

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Speaker 2: In fact, believe it or not, you can break a

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Speaker 2: diamond with a regular steel hammer and anvil. In fact,

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Speaker 2: before we I just wanted to gut check myself on

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Speaker 2: this and be like, okay, well, assuming you can do that,

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Speaker 2: I want to see it. I bet there are videos

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Speaker 2: of people doing it, like on YouTube, and yep, you

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Speaker 2: can look them up. People put a diamond on an

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Speaker 2: anvil and smash it with a hammer. It breaks to pieces.

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Speaker 2: It's not necessarily easy to do, but with the regular

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Speaker 2: steel tools and enough force you can do it.

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Speaker 1: That's right. And we'll get into some specific examples of

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Speaker 1: diamonds being shattered as we proceed here. So yeah, they

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Speaker 1: are not indestructible, even though at times our linguistic treatment

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Speaker 1: of diamond and related terms ends up bleeding into that area.

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Speaker 1: And in fact I have a pretty I think amusing

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Speaker 1: comic book example of that here in a.

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Speaker 2: Bit oh nice, But just to reinforce the shorthand on

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Speaker 2: toughness versus hardness, a hard material it's going to be

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Speaker 2: difficult to cut, dent or scratch. A tough material, it's

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Speaker 2: going to be difficult to break.

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Speaker 1: Now, here's another thing about diamonds that I think everyone

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Speaker 1: either you know this or you've heard it before, or

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Speaker 1: you're going to say, oh, yeah, yeah, that's right.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 1: I remember, okay, we're all carbon based organisms. Here a

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Speaker 1: billion year old carbon, if you will. And another interesting

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Speaker 1: thing to remember about diamonds is that a diamond is

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Speaker 1: actually pure carbon. What we know of as a diamond

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Speaker 1: is actually a crystalline form of carbon, a fact that

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Speaker 1: was discovered for the first time in seventeen seventy two

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Speaker 1: by French chemist Anthony Labossie, an individual who made numerous

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Speaker 1: contributions to the advance ansmen of chemical and biological sciences

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Speaker 1: before he was executed at the age of fifty on

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Speaker 1: charges of tax fraud and tobacco adulteration. That's adding water

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Speaker 1: to tobacco before sale. By the way, I had to

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Speaker 1: look that up. I was like, what was this guy

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Speaker 1: allegedly doing to his to tobacco. These were charges that

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Speaker 1: he was exonerated of a year and a half later,

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Speaker 1: but by that point he was of course already dead.

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Speaker 2: Adding water to tobacco, I would think of normally watering

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Speaker 2: down a liquid to adulterate it. I could maybe tobacco

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Speaker 2: gets soggy, so you can like bulk up the weight

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Speaker 2: by getting water in it.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, I guess, so holding the thumb on

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Speaker 1: the scales one way or another.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but you're saying they found that he didn't do

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Speaker 2: it after they killed him.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, after and pretty soon after they were like,

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Speaker 1: actually are bad on that one. A lot has was

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Speaker 1: written and has been written about how this was maybe

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Speaker 1: not a great move, because even in his short life

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Speaker 1: that was obviously cut short by execution, he did a

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Speaker 1: number of contributions to the advancement of science. Now, speaking

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Speaker 1: of liquids, though, I have to throw in in one

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Speaker 1: of our primary sources for this series, diamonds in Early

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Speaker 1: History of the King of Gems by Jack Ogden. Ogden

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Speaker 1: points out that during the Renaissance, various philosophers believe that

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Speaker 1: diamonds must be some form of congealed juice or quote,

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Speaker 1: most pure juice juice of what I was a little

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Speaker 1: unclear on that juice of carbon. Juice of carbon. That

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Speaker 1: gets us to where did diamonds come from. Naturally occurring

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Speaker 1: diamonds are formed under intense pressure and temperature deep within

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Speaker 1: the Earth and then brought to the surface via volcanic action.

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Speaker 1: And diamonds are found in three types of deposits. First

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Speaker 1: of all, you have kimber like pipes. These are formed

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Speaker 1: by intrusions of magma into the Earth's crust, bringing in diamonds,

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Speaker 1: among other things, from the Earth's mantle. The pipes themselves

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Speaker 1: tend to be only one hundred million years old, while

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Speaker 1: the diamonds they bring up may be anywhere between like

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Speaker 1: one and three point three billion years old. And then

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Speaker 1: you also have alluvial gravels and glacial tills. So in

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Speaker 1: these diamonds are released by either fluvial or river based

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Speaker 1: or glacial erosion of the kimberlight matrix, and then they're

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Speaker 1: redeposited in rivers or in a glacial till. This is

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Speaker 1: the sediment moved by a glacier as it moves over

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Speaker 1: the course of time.

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Speaker 2: Right, So we need these mechanisms to explain diamonds being

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Speaker 2: brought near to the surface of the Earth because they

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Speaker 2: have to be formed way deep down in the Earth's mantle.

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Speaker 1: Or they used to be before Superman, of course, But

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Speaker 1: more truthfully, since around the nineteen fifties, we have been

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Speaker 1: able to make synthetic diamonds that are chemically and physically

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Speaker 1: identical to naturally occurring diamonds. But for the longest yeah,

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Speaker 1: diamonds had to be mined from the Earth. And while

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Speaker 1: diamonds occur naturally on every continent and have been mined

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Speaker 1: around the world historically, and we'll come back to this,

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Speaker 1: there was one place to gather your diamonds and it

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Speaker 1: was India.

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Speaker 3: Mm.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Now I mentioned that I would get into comic

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Speaker 4: books a little bit, because the connection here is that

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Speaker 4: we should also mention that the word diamond is actually

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Speaker 4: linked directly to x Man Wolverine's claws and skeleton, because

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Speaker 4: I don't have to tell most of you that Logan's

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Speaker 4: retractable claws and bones are said to be coated with

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Speaker 4: the fictional indestructible sci fi metal known as Adamantium.

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Speaker 1: Now, the authors and artists of Marvel Comics did not

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Speaker 1: invent the idea of adamantium. It apparently pops up in

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Speaker 1: earlier fictional works, a natural extrapolation of the adjective adamantine,

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Speaker 1: which means unyielding or unbreakable, related to the word adamant

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Speaker 1: as well, which this was all widely used in pre

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Speaker 1: marvel fiction. And of course all of this extends back

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Speaker 1: to the ancient world as well, with writings in Greek

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Speaker 1: and Latin that utilize atomas, either once again figuratively or

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Speaker 1: in reference to some sort of legendary unbreakable stone or gym,

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Speaker 1: such as in some tellings, the substance used to construct

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Speaker 1: the chains that bound Cerberus, the great three headed hound

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Speaker 1: of Hades.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so this is worth flagging because it leads to

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Speaker 2: a confusion that could arise from some ancient sources, because

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Speaker 2: in some ancient sources people talk about something that seems

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Speaker 2: like it could be a diamond, but we're not necessarily

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Speaker 2: positive that's what they're referring to. And in some of

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Speaker 2: these cases, these Latin or Greek writers are using this

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Speaker 2: term adamas, the Latin word adamas derived from the Greek. Now,

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Speaker 2: I was also reading about this in Ogden in Diamonds

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Speaker 2: in Early History of the King of gems, and Ogden

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Speaker 2: talks about how the English word diamond is derived from

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Speaker 2: this Latin word adamas, which in turn came from the Greek.

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Speaker 2: And there's an interesting etymology here. So in Greek the

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Speaker 2: word dama itself, dama meant something like conquer or tame.

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Speaker 2: Elsewhere I've read that it had the sense of break,

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Speaker 2: as in the way you would break a horse like

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Speaker 2: you would tame it. So with the negative prefix ah

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Speaker 2: in front of it, that means kind of like un

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Speaker 2: ah dema adamas meant unconquerable, untameable, unbreakable, unalterable. But Ogden says,

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Speaker 2: in medieval European sources, the prefix ah starts to disappear

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Speaker 2: from this Latin term ademas, and then we're just left

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Speaker 2: with terms like damon or Damon's, which in English eventually

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Speaker 2: became diamond. But by losing the ah prefix ahead of it,

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Speaker 2: this would mean that, according to Greek word logic, it's

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Speaker 2: sort of losing the un and unbreakable, so it's kind

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Speaker 2: of meaning tameable or breakable again. But of course that

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Speaker 2: meaning was lost at this point. Just came to me

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Speaker 2: in the gym, but in its usage in ancient Greek

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Speaker 2: and Roman sources. The term odomas may sometimes refer to diamonds,

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Speaker 2: but it also clearly refers to other materials that were

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Speaker 2: considered especially hard or strong, and Ogden calls out things

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Speaker 2: like maybe maybe some sort of early proto steel or

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Speaker 2: special naturally occurring alloys and grains found alongside gold and

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Speaker 2: ore or other gems.

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Speaker 1: That's right, that's right. Now. To come back to Marvel,

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Speaker 1: I was wondering, because again, you know, Marvel's been around

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Speaker 1: long enough that there's so many characters and creatures that

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Speaker 1: everything's been done at least once. Surely. I was like, well,

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Speaker 1: there's got to be a character that has either diamond

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Speaker 1: claws or a diamond skeleton, And in fact, there does

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Speaker 1: seem to be such a creature. There is apparently an

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Speaker 1: alternate timeline where you have a fusion of two characters.

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Speaker 1: This apparently occurs throughout I think DC and Marvel both

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Speaker 1: get into this, where not only do you have variants

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Speaker 1: of different characters in different to alternate realities, but you

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Speaker 1: also have fusions of different individuals. So there's one alternate timeline,

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Speaker 1: one alternate Earth or whatever, where you have a single

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Speaker 1: entity that is merged out of Emma Frost aka the

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Speaker 1: White Queen who has I think this ability to like

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Speaker 1: shape shift into a diamond form that grants her immunity

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Speaker 1: and in vulnerability, especially from like psychic attacks. And then Wolverine,

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Speaker 1: who are just talking about this single entity who ends

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Speaker 1: up looking like a really posh wolverine with blonde hair

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Speaker 1: and an eyepatch. His name is diamond Patch apparently, or

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Speaker 1: that is his code name, and he has clause and

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Speaker 1: presumably a skeleton made out of diamond, and if he

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Speaker 1: stabs you with his diamond clause, he can read your mind.

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Speaker 2: Why is he called diamond Patch? He does have an

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Speaker 2: eye patches. Is the eye patch made of diamond?

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Speaker 1: Ah? Maybe I don't know. I mean, if you if

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Speaker 1: your claws or diamond, maybe you don't want to ac

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Speaker 1: accessorize with diamonds too much. I'm not sure. I'm not

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Speaker 1: an expert on diamond patch here. We'll have to hear

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Speaker 1: from our more devoted comic readers out there. But it

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Speaker 1: does raise all sorts of questions about what it would

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Speaker 1: be like to have a skeleton made out of diamond.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't sound particularly great if you're going to potentially

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Speaker 1: get into a you know, some sort of a throw

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Speaker 1: down with the Hulk or something.

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Speaker 2: I wonder if there's a plot line where he pounds

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Speaker 2: his claws into a powder and then feeds it as

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Speaker 2: poisoned to somebody.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, I would hope so, I mean, but

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Speaker 1: then I guess he has the healing factor too, So

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Speaker 1: what does that mean? Does like his powderized bones then

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Speaker 1: reheal into a solid diamond once more.

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure they really do do everything in comic books,

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Speaker 2: don't they. What you were just saying a minute ago

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Speaker 2: is right, Like anytime you imagine, I wonder if somebody's

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Speaker 2: done this, there's like a comic book where somebody did that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's been done, and it was maybe done

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Speaker 1: decades ago, and it's been done a second time. They've

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Speaker 1: revisited it. But that's one of the things I love

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Speaker 1: about diving into the world of comics.

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Speaker 2: There's so much variety, a world where all possible elevator

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Speaker 2: pitches have been realized. That's right, he's made of diamond,

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Speaker 2: all right.

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Speaker 1: Well, at this point, let's turn our attention back to

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Speaker 1: the real world and back specifically to India and ancient India. Again.

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Speaker 1: India is extremely important in the history of diamonds, as

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Speaker 1: Ogden points out in the book, until the sixteen hundreds,

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Speaker 1: it was the most important, if not the only, source

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Speaker 1: of diamonds in the Mediterranean, in European worlds, and Ogden

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Speaker 1: mentions has a lot to share about diamonds in this book.

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Speaker 1: This is a terrific book. Highly recommend it. At one

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Speaker 1: point he mentions some of the detective aspects of the

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Speaker 1: diamond that you see appearing in Indian lore at different points,

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Speaker 1: that they may have provided protection against quote serpents, tigers,

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Speaker 1: and thieves. That one gave me a lot of pause there,

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Speaker 1: because I'm trying to imagine, first of all, our diamond's

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Speaker 1: going to protect you from thieves. That doesn't seem like

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Speaker 1: a very logical idea tigers, though it made me think about, well, okay,

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Speaker 1: a tiger is a you know, an ambush predator that

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Speaker 1: wants to make sure it has the most advantageous attack conditions.

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Speaker 1: And you and I have seen, you know, some compelling

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Speaker 1: evidence about, say, weighing ways to deter a tiger attack

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Speaker 1: by having like fake eyes on the back of your

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Speaker 1: head and so forth, wearing like a mask on the

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Speaker 1: back of your head, and to whatever extent that is

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Speaker 1: useful or not. You can think, well, okay, a diamond glitters.

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Speaker 1: Maybe a diamond does something optical that in some way

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Speaker 1: might make a tiger think twice about attacking you.

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure that's interesting. Yeah, I wonder the sparkling

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Speaker 2: could function kind of like eye spots, or just in

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Speaker 2: some other way could disrupt a tiger an ambush predator

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Speaker 2: since that attack is now appropriate.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, so I don't know. I didn't look too

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Speaker 1: hard into that, but it came to mind. Ogden also

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Speaker 1: mentions that that for the most part, these diamonds were

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Speaker 1: for men only, and they were thought to make women

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Speaker 1: quote sterile and unhappy, and he points out that while

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Speaker 1: this notion runs against the general modern marketing trend with diamonds,

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Speaker 1: which has European roots, you know, for the longest, the

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Speaker 1: durable diamond was considered the perfect gem to symbolize the

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Speaker 1: masculine might of kings.

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Speaker 2: Ah, okay, so it's like, oh, because the diamond is invincible,

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Speaker 2: it makes people think that I'm invincible, I'm so strong,

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Speaker 2: I'm so tough.

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Speaker 1: Yes, just ignore the part about how you can smash

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Speaker 1: it with a hammer, and it just becomes a million almost,

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Speaker 1: it almost becomes almost invisible when you break it. Right now,

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Speaker 1: a quick note on jim stones in general, because we

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Speaker 1: get into this whole like gems and then diamonds. I

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Speaker 1: decided to look this up in Brian M. Fagan's seventy

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Speaker 1: Great Inventions of the Ancient World. Guess who has co

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Speaker 1: author is in the section on gemstones. It's Jack Ogden.

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Speaker 2: Oh okay, So.

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Speaker 1: Once more the at least partially citing Ogden here. Gyms

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Speaker 1: have factored into human jewelry since the earliest times, though

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Speaker 1: the setting of colored stones which were the preference for

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Speaker 1: the longest, with the move toward transparent gemstones not occurring

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Speaker 1: un till the first millennium BC with the rise of

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Speaker 1: the Persian Empire. The setting of colored stones was only

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Speaker 1: possible once a fairly sophisticated metal working industry was established.

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Speaker 1: So they point out that for the longest colored stones

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Speaker 1: were used as quote blocks of pigment, and this would

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Speaker 1: be inlaid in a metal form. The stones were usually

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Speaker 1: cut to fit a particular setting, and it wasn't until

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Speaker 1: later that the reverse would become the fad.

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Speaker 2: Oh okay, So if I'm understanding this right, it would

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Speaker 2: mean like that originally gyms were more like just sort

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Speaker 2: of a tool. They were one piece of artistic filler

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Speaker 2: to fill out whatever it is you're designing. But later

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Speaker 2: on they would come to be more of the focus

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Speaker 2: and whatever you're designing would be based around the gym

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Speaker 2: in it. Correct.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the point I was taking from all of this.

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Speaker 1: And in addition to the rise of the Persian Empire,

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Speaker 1: you also had other factors influencing the shift towards transparent gemstones.

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Speaker 1: I mean, not that you completely abandoned color gyms, but

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Speaker 1: like sort of the opening of the mind to the

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Speaker 1: idea that hey, these are beautiful. As well, you have

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Speaker 1: things like the conquest of Oxander the Great, which we'll

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Speaker 1: come back to, and a number of other factors that

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Speaker 1: Ogden gets into more depth about in the book, you know,

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Speaker 1: with various trade routes opening up and so forth. Now,

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Speaker 1: according to Ogden, the earliest known use of diamonds in

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Speaker 1: jewelry and you know, a enormous.

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Speaker 2: Caveat with all this.

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Speaker 1: You know, this is based on surviving written records, This

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Speaker 1: is based on surviving artifacts and so forth. The earliest

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Speaker 1: known use of diamonds and jewelry dates back to after

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Speaker 1: three twenty five BCE in northern India and Afghanistan following

407
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Speaker 1: Alexander the Great's military conquest in this area, and the

408
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Speaker 1: earliest diamond rings come from this region as well. Again,

409
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Speaker 1: going we have to go back to the caveat about

410
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Speaker 1: metallurgy and metal working having to reach a certain point

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Speaker 1: before you could really make much in the way of

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Speaker 1: diamond rings and so forth. But the earliest diamond rings

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Speaker 1: come from this region as well, and this all leads

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Speaker 1: to an influx of diamonds and diamond lore into the

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Speaker 1: Mediterranean world, though their initial use in the Mediterranean region

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Speaker 1: was for drilling and engraving other gems. So this touches

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Speaker 1: on a topic that Ogden considers at length. You know,

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Speaker 1: when do diamonds start becoming more than stones to be

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Speaker 1: used in cutting gems, When do they become gems themselves.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, that's an interesting question, and I would wonder

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Speaker 2: if it has anything like what is the economic intersection

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Speaker 2: between the value of a gym as a decorative item

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Speaker 2: or something that's prized just for its own sake versus

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Speaker 2: the value of a gym that it has specific utility

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Speaker 2: as a tool. Because as we know about the diamond

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Speaker 2: being the hardest of all these gems. It has a

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Speaker 2: real utility, It has a real direct use value.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, And again, like not all forms of carbon

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Speaker 1: have the same value. Other forms of carbon. You can't

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Speaker 1: bring them into a diamond dealer and be like, hey,

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Speaker 1: how much for this lump of carbon? How much for me?

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Speaker 1: I'm carbon? What's the going rate? Now? And then, likewise,

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Speaker 1: not all forms of crystal are going to, you know,

434
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:53,080
Speaker 1: command vast sums of money either. So Ogden points out

435
00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:57,000
Speaker 1: that early written evidence for diamonds as gems, again considered gems,

436
00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:00,800
Speaker 1: is a you can be found in a northern in text,

437
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:05,240
Speaker 1: often dated with some disagreement to three hundred BCE. Other

438
00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:07,359
Speaker 1: dating of the text may push the reference to the

439
00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:10,600
Speaker 1: second millennium BCE, or possibly to the fourth century CE.

440
00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:14,840
Speaker 1: The text is called the Atha Sastra, or the Lesson

441
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:18,480
Speaker 1: of Profit, and it points out a few interesting ideas

442
00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:22,040
Speaker 1: of the time period. Again depending on exactly when this

443
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:25,720
Speaker 1: would have been, but a few of the ideas that

444
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:29,520
Speaker 1: were put forth regarding the value of a diamond, Ogden writes,

445
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:33,520
Speaker 1: quote the list of diamond colors given in the Atha

446
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:39,840
Speaker 1: Sostra include cat's eye, sirisa flower, cow's urine, cows fat,

447
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:44,720
Speaker 1: clear crystal, Mulatti flower, and then adds any other gem

448
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 1: color which is a little help to us cow's urine. Yeah. Yeah,

449
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:55,560
Speaker 1: it's a humorous book as well. It's again again very

450
00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:59,080
Speaker 1: fun read. But also other aspects of the diamond mentioned

451
00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:03,000
Speaker 1: this text stress that large, heavy, and hard diamonds are best.

452
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:08,080
Speaker 1: The best diamonds have symmetrical points. The best diamonds can

453
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:11,600
Speaker 1: scratch a vessel, and not only do they sparkle, but

454
00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:14,719
Speaker 1: they spin like a top. These are the various not

455
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:16,800
Speaker 1: on their own obviously, but you know, with wind spun

456
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:20,760
Speaker 1: by the human looking at them. These are all aspects

457
00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:24,760
Speaker 1: of a suitable diamond, ones that are true gems and

458
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:26,959
Speaker 1: not something that you need to just break down and

459
00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:29,160
Speaker 1: use for your gym working and so forth.

460
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:33,159
Speaker 2: That is interesting, And I wonder where criteria like this

461
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:35,600
Speaker 2: are originally derived from. I guess some of it is

462
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:39,320
Speaker 2: just like intuitive preferences about anything that, like, you know,

463
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:44,080
Speaker 2: bigger is better, heavier is better. I guess a harder

464
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 2: diamond or a harder thing called a diamond is going

465
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:49,840
Speaker 2: to be more durable, it will last longer. But I wonder,

466
00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:53,440
Speaker 2: like it spins like a top, why is that preferred?

467
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:55,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I guess it just comes down to

468
00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:59,160
Speaker 1: just the the you know, the structural completeness of the thing,

469
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 1: the in the symmetry of the thing, right, But but

470
00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:06,320
Speaker 1: in general, yeah, it also you can't help but think

471
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:08,800
Speaker 1: about the idea of like just branding. Like someone's like, hey,

472
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:11,840
Speaker 1: we got to move some diamonds here, we got to

473
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:14,320
Speaker 1: move something. Why don't we start selling these diamonds? So

474
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:16,360
Speaker 1: let's just start start talking about just how pretty these

475
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:18,720
Speaker 1: things are and how how you know, and then figure

476
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:21,200
Speaker 1: out like what is the what are the best candidates

477
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:24,080
Speaker 1: to push forward? Is the new King of gems? M

478
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:37,320
Speaker 1: Now at this point I thought we'd talk about one

479
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:44,400
Speaker 1: of the most wonderful uh collection of falsehoods concerning uh

480
00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:47,639
Speaker 1: the origin of diamonds uh and uh and the and

481
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:50,719
Speaker 1: the gathering of diamonds, and that is of course the

482
00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:52,000
Speaker 1: Valley of the Gems.

483
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:54,720
Speaker 2: I think this is where we come back to Alexander

484
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:55,160
Speaker 2: the Great.

485
00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:58,720
Speaker 1: That's right, Alexander the Great does factor into all of this.

486
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:04,439
Speaker 1: This myth is heavily associated with him, but also to

487
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:08,880
Speaker 1: be clear, it seems to predate him and also would

488
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:14,560
Speaker 1: be retold many more times in various formats involving Marco Polo.

489
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:17,760
Speaker 1: It also pops up as a story about about the

490
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:23,480
Speaker 1: hero Sinbad the Sailor. So it isn't just an Alexander

491
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:25,679
Speaker 1: the Great thing, but he becomes associated.

492
00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:27,639
Speaker 2: With the story. Okay, what's the story? Okay?

493
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:33,119
Speaker 1: So, and it mainly becomes associated with Alexander the Great

494
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:38,680
Speaker 1: through the writings of the Greek philosopher Theophrastus, who lived

495
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:42,000
Speaker 1: three seventy two more or less to around two eighty

496
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:45,680
Speaker 1: seven BCE, who wrote of the valley in his work

497
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:49,600
Speaker 1: De Lapidibus or on Gems. And this is the one

498
00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:52,719
Speaker 1: that throws Alexander the Great into the story, makes him

499
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:56,200
Speaker 1: the hero of the tale, and also seemingly canonizes the

500
00:28:56,200 --> 00:29:01,080
Speaker 1: involvement of snakes within the story, a story that, according

501
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:04,480
Speaker 1: to Ogden, seems to have pre existed this riding by

502
00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:08,800
Speaker 1: many centuries as a folk narrative about this mystical valley

503
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:12,920
Speaker 1: of the Gems. However, Ogden also knows it wouldn't really

504
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:16,480
Speaker 1: become like cemented as like part of the quote romance

505
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:20,480
Speaker 1: of Alexander till the nineteenth century. Right, so, Ogden tees

506
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 1: is a part the different versions of the myth, but

507
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:26,160
Speaker 1: it basically goes down like this Okay, there's a valley

508
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 1: out there in the wilds of India, and guess what,

509
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:32,120
Speaker 1: it's full of diamonds. Now, Joe, wouldn't you like to

510
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:35,080
Speaker 1: get into that that valley and get those diamonds.

511
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,200
Speaker 2: I want to get in that valley like a ballpit,

512
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:41,440
Speaker 2: just swim around in it, Scrooge mcducket.

513
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 1: Okay, well, that that's understandable. They are diamonds, after all.

514
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:48,840
Speaker 1: But here's the thing. Uh, these diamonds are inaccessible by

515
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:54,000
Speaker 1: normal means, due either to the terrifying cliffs, but also

516
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 1: because there's there's there are even worse things down there.

517
00:29:57,640 --> 00:29:59,760
Speaker 1: There are a whole bunch of snakes, venomous snakes in

518
00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:03,440
Speaker 1: some in cases, giant venomous snakes, and you don't want

519
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 1: to mess with those. Do you still want the diamonds?

520
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:11,360
Speaker 2: Let's assume that I am absolutely mad with greed, so yes, okay.

521
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:13,840
Speaker 1: In order to get these diamonds out, here's what you

522
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:16,480
Speaker 1: need to do. First. You need to get yourself some meat,

523
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,480
Speaker 1: a bunch of big strips of meat, giant strips of meat,

524
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:22,920
Speaker 1: as much meat as you can get together, okay, all right,

525
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 1: and then you're gonna throw that meat down into the

526
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:26,160
Speaker 1: pit down into the valley.

527
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 2: Do you stand on top of the cliffs and throw

528
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:28,560
Speaker 2: it down?

529
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:31,920
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, yeah, you'd want to throw it down from above.

530
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:33,240
Speaker 1: You don't want to get down there because that's where

531
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:35,560
Speaker 1: the snakes are. So throw that meat into the into

532
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:38,720
Speaker 1: the valley, into the pit. Because guess what, those diamonds

533
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:41,400
Speaker 1: are just laying about down there on the surface, on

534
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:43,800
Speaker 1: the floor of the pit, on the floor of the valley.

535
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:45,960
Speaker 1: And if you throw the meat down, you know what's

536
00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:48,800
Speaker 1: gonna happen. The diamonds are gonna stick to the meat.

537
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 2: Perfect.

538
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:52,360
Speaker 1: This is raw meat, by the way, is it's not cooked?

539
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:55,480
Speaker 1: Don't you don't want to throw like well done meat

540
00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:56,680
Speaker 1: into the valley of gems.

541
00:30:57,200 --> 00:30:58,800
Speaker 2: No, it'll be stickier if it's raw.

542
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:02,400
Speaker 1: Yeah. Now at this point you're wondering, Okay, I want

543
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:04,200
Speaker 1: the diamonds, but now I just spend all this money

544
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 1: on meat. I just literally threw it away. Well, this

545
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,160
Speaker 1: is where the birds come in. The birds are going

546
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:11,560
Speaker 1: to swoop down and they're going to collect that meat,

547
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:14,520
Speaker 1: that free meal, from the bottom of the valley and

548
00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 1: bring it back up to the top of the cliffs

549
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:19,640
Speaker 1: to eat. That meat. I will remind you still has

550
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 1: diamonds stuck to it all over brilliant. Now, at this point,

551
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:26,720
Speaker 1: many of the tellings indicate that what you need to

552
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 1: do is scare the birds away from that meat long

553
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:32,480
Speaker 1: enough to peel off all the diamonds, and then you're

554
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:34,440
Speaker 1: going to leave the meat. The birds will leave you

555
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:36,400
Speaker 1: alone at that point. They don't actually want the diamonds,

556
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:39,080
Speaker 1: they want the meat. And then once you have the diamonds,

557
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:40,920
Speaker 1: you can run off and do what you will with them.

558
00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:46,040
Speaker 2: I love this scheme. It's a diamond heist to beat

559
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:46,480
Speaker 2: them all.

560
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:49,000
Speaker 1: There are also versions of the story in which you

561
00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:51,080
Speaker 1: have to kill the birds to get the diamonds out

562
00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 1: of their stomach, but really, I mean, who wants to

563
00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:56,120
Speaker 1: go through with that? It seems much easier to just

564
00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 1: scare them away long enough to get the diamonds off

565
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:02,200
Speaker 1: the meat and then cash in mm hmm. Interestingly, in

566
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:05,560
Speaker 1: cases in retellings of the story where snakes are involved,

567
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:08,240
Speaker 1: this is also sometimes used to explain why you should

568
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:11,680
Speaker 1: never put diamonds in your mouth because they there may

569
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 1: be lingering snake venom and in some way like that

570
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:18,480
Speaker 1: snake venom never completely leaves the diamonds, and therefore to

571
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:20,080
Speaker 1: eat them would be to invite death.

572
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:24,000
Speaker 2: Oh okay, so this would be a different explanation of

573
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:28,960
Speaker 2: the supposedly lethal mechanism of the diamonds, because if you

574
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 2: didn't listen to the last episode, the main explanation given

575
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:37,400
Speaker 2: by at least by Benvenudo Chillini was that the diamond

576
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 2: it's not actually chemically poisonous. It's that pounded up diamonds

577
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 2: have all these little sharp edges in them, and because

578
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:48,479
Speaker 2: they're so hard, nothing can like dull their edges. They

579
00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 2: will just go down into your guts and end up

580
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:53,400
Speaker 2: cutting you up from the inside. But this would be

581
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:56,480
Speaker 2: a totally different folk logic for why they are allegedly poisonous.

582
00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:57,960
Speaker 2: They have snake venom on them.

583
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 1: That's right. Then, the second voyage of Sindbad, he actually

584
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:05,440
Speaker 1: escapes from the pit by strapping one of the pieces

585
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:08,960
Speaker 1: of meat to his own back. This telling involves the

586
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:12,719
Speaker 1: giant mythic rock bird, and the snakes are also giants

587
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:15,440
Speaker 1: that swallow elephants. Diamonds are also present.

588
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 2: Is Sinbad trying to get the diamonds or are they

589
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:18,600
Speaker 2: just incidental?

590
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:23,400
Speaker 1: He is mainly just trying to escape at this point,

591
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:26,120
Speaker 1: so it's just kind of a clever escape scheme, I believe,

592
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:29,600
Speaker 1: But you know, the voyages of Sindbad and so forth,

593
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 1: I feel like those are stories I need to properly revisit.

594
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:34,960
Speaker 1: Maybe we can find a way to explore them in

595
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:39,800
Speaker 1: a future episode. But again, this story is widely told

596
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:42,480
Speaker 1: and retold plenty of The Elder, of course, also repeats

597
00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:46,280
Speaker 1: the myth at some point. But at the end of it,

598
00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:47,840
Speaker 1: I was wondering, like, well, what does it mean? Like

599
00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:51,680
Speaker 1: where does this story come from? You know, will get

600
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:56,440
Speaker 1: into another story later on, another seemingly fantastical bit of

601
00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:59,840
Speaker 1: folklore and myth that involves sticky things and diamonds, So

602
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:02,280
Speaker 1: I was wondering if that would have anything to do

603
00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 1: with it. But I ended up turning to an article

604
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:08,280
Speaker 1: by S. Tolanski from nineteen sixty one titled some Folklore

605
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:12,120
Speaker 1: in History of diamond and the author here speculates that

606
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:15,239
Speaker 1: the story may have been originally circulated in some of

607
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:18,960
Speaker 1: its earliest forms by none other than Indian diamond miners

608
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:22,440
Speaker 1: to cover up the true source of their lucrative trade,

609
00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:25,759
Speaker 1: because again, diamonds are not coming from a valley, They're

610
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:28,240
Speaker 1: not just littering on the ground in a place haunted

611
00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:32,480
Speaker 1: by venomous snakes, you know, their mind from specific locations.

612
00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 1: You know, we alluded to the sources earlier. So perhaps

613
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 1: this is a bit of misinformation that was popularized in

614
00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:45,239
Speaker 1: order to throw thieves and would be minors off the scent.

615
00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:49,560
Speaker 1: But it also raises the question like, even in ancient times,

616
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:55,319
Speaker 1: it feels like someone's you know, BS sensor would go

617
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:58,160
Speaker 1: off at some point and they might realize, you know,

618
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 1: I don't think that's actually where diamonds come from, and

619
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:03,279
Speaker 1: I know they don't want me to know where they

620
00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:06,880
Speaker 1: come from, but it's something else, and I'm going to

621
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:11,560
Speaker 1: get to the bottom of it. So anyway, that seems

622
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:17,680
Speaker 1: like one potentially valid hypothesis. But the author here also

623
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:21,920
Speaker 1: mentions another possibility, something that may or may not tie

624
00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:26,719
Speaker 1: into it. He mentions something that has been observed in

625
00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:31,040
Speaker 1: modern South Africa. He wrote quote four. In South Africa,

626
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:33,719
Speaker 1: where the deep dug mines have heaped around them great

627
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:37,760
Speaker 1: masses of waste worked out ores. It is known locally

628
00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:41,160
Speaker 1: that the crops of fowls which wander and peck over

629
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:45,920
Speaker 1: this land frequently contain small diamonds. The chickens seem to

630
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:48,520
Speaker 1: have an eye for the shining pebbles, and a single

631
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:50,719
Speaker 1: fowl has been known to have as much as a

632
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:54,960
Speaker 1: total of five carrot weight of small diamond within its crop.

633
00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:58,479
Speaker 2: Oh okay, So the crop, of course is it's part

634
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:02,400
Speaker 2: of the chicken's digestive system, which, if I recall correctly,

635
00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:05,120
Speaker 2: is not the stomach. It's sort of like a little

636
00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:08,000
Speaker 2: side pouch. It's got like you know, on the way

637
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:10,319
Speaker 2: to the rest of the digestive system. The chicken can

638
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:12,520
Speaker 2: store stuff in its crop for a while.

639
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:16,359
Speaker 1: And so the idea here would seem that like, okay,

640
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:18,960
Speaker 1: this would not one hundred percent explain the idea. But

641
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:22,840
Speaker 1: if something like this had been observed in ancient times,

642
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:28,040
Speaker 1: perhaps it might have influenced the various myth cycles that

643
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:30,840
Speaker 1: spun out of it. And therefore that's why you have

644
00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 1: birds and giant birds and so forth involved in it.

645
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:36,319
Speaker 1: In some cases you have the birds being killed and

646
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:38,520
Speaker 1: then opened up, and in other cases it's just like

647
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:41,120
Speaker 1: we'll get the diamonds off the meat before the birds

648
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:43,800
Speaker 1: eat it. That's how diamonds wind up in birds.

649
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:46,279
Speaker 2: After all, that's an interesting possibility.

650
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:49,400
Speaker 1: Now, another interesting idea that I that I ended up

651
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:53,480
Speaker 1: looking at here concerning the diamond and how the diamond

652
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:56,719
Speaker 1: is utilized as a as an idea, as a metaphor,

653
00:36:56,800 --> 00:37:02,440
Speaker 1: and so forth, and particularly in parts of India, is

654
00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:06,319
Speaker 1: the idea of the vodra. So in Hindu iconography you'll

655
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:11,080
Speaker 1: frequently encounter the symbol and legendary ritual weapon of the vodra.

656
00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:15,200
Speaker 1: You'll recognize it as appearing almost like a claud talon,

657
00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:19,240
Speaker 1: with each appendage curving out and then touching at the tips.

658
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:23,320
Speaker 1: And the vodra may be three, four or even five pronged,

659
00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:26,000
Speaker 1: but it's not a claw. The finished symbol or artifact

660
00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:30,480
Speaker 1: may resemble a closed lotus blossom. It is especially common

661
00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:35,120
Speaker 1: in the Tibetan Vadriyana school of Buddhism, and it can

662
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:38,320
Speaker 1: be translated as thunder vehicle. For indeed, the vadra is

663
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:41,839
Speaker 1: in many ways a thunderbolt, a divine weapon, and also

664
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:48,120
Speaker 1: the metaphoric striking of enlightenment. It cleaves through ignorance like lightning. Indeed,

665
00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:51,080
Speaker 1: in Hindu mythology, the vadra is the weapon of Indra,

666
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:53,880
Speaker 1: king of the Devas, and a god of the sky.

667
00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:58,680
Speaker 1: That may be, I think reasonably compared to other deity traditions,

668
00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:01,359
Speaker 1: such as that of Zeus or that of odin in

669
00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:07,280
Speaker 1: Norse mythology, but vadra also can apparently be translated as diamond,

670
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:10,920
Speaker 1: for the vodra is indestructible, and there is indeed a

671
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:13,520
Speaker 1: sense of a diamond to the shape of the thing

672
00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:17,279
Speaker 1: as well. Sometimes the vadra appears like a club or

673
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:21,400
Speaker 1: a scepter with a long handle, other times a ritualistic

674
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:24,239
Speaker 1: item with two vadras, one on either end of like

675
00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:28,320
Speaker 1: a handle. And you'll also find vadras on the handles

676
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:31,600
Speaker 1: of a symbolic bell, and indeed you also find it

677
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:34,320
Speaker 1: as a motif on the pommels and or the hilts

678
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:38,960
Speaker 1: of highly decorative swords. So I found this interesting as well,

679
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:43,920
Speaker 1: this idea of this thing going from like indestructible bolt

680
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:49,319
Speaker 1: of enlightenment to a weapon of war, but involving like

681
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:53,200
Speaker 1: aspects of thunder and lightning and also aspects of the diamond.

682
00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:57,359
Speaker 1: I should also add that in Mahayana Buddhism there's also

683
00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:00,960
Speaker 1: an important sutra that is generally referred to in English

684
00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:02,080
Speaker 1: as the diamond Sutra.

685
00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:07,400
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, this seems to connect to the things that

686
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:09,800
Speaker 2: have come up in multiple ways, especially like the idea

687
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:13,080
Speaker 2: of a diamond being a sort of a symbol of

688
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:15,720
Speaker 2: the power of kings here. If there is a diamond

689
00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:20,640
Speaker 2: association with the mythical weapon of Indra.

690
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:24,040
Speaker 1: That's right. Yeah, so yeah, And also I love that

691
00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:26,239
Speaker 1: in this we get this more spiritual idea of the

692
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:31,160
Speaker 1: diamond as opposed to certainly the sort of the modern,

693
00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:35,160
Speaker 1: you know, western popular idea of the diamond. That's very

694
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:38,000
Speaker 1: and I guess it does get aligned with ideas of love.

695
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:40,480
Speaker 1: But I don't know, I don't get a very spiritual

696
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:43,520
Speaker 1: idea of the diamond when I'm watching a diamond commercial

697
00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:46,279
Speaker 1: on television, Like, it doesn't seem like it's clearly not

698
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:50,280
Speaker 1: something that's coming from from the realm of the gods.

699
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:53,320
Speaker 1: It's something that's coming from the diamond store across town.

700
00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:56,239
Speaker 2: Think how much more interesting those commercials would be if

701
00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:59,120
Speaker 2: they did the Valley of Gems with the snake and

702
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:02,080
Speaker 2: the meat. You had to get the meat in order

703
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:04,200
Speaker 2: to get the diamond. That's part of the process.

704
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:06,279
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, I can see it.

705
00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:06,400
Speaker 2: Now.

706
00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:08,400
Speaker 1: They can still have the you know, the excellent music,

707
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:13,000
Speaker 1: the high production values. But let's get some some diamond

708
00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:16,840
Speaker 1: studded meat in the game. Let's get some giant birds,

709
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:19,279
Speaker 1: Let's get some snakes. It's a lot of fun to

710
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:19,480
Speaker 1: be at.

711
00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:23,000
Speaker 2: I want to direct these commercials. Valentine's Day is coming up.

712
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:26,000
Speaker 2: You see you see like a husband going up to

713
00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:28,799
Speaker 2: the cliff side. He's got the meat. It's like, you know,

714
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:31,759
Speaker 2: just dripping all over his back. I guess he's got

715
00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:34,879
Speaker 2: to have something to fight the birds with later. It's

716
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:36,120
Speaker 2: all coming together in my mind.

717
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:40,440
Speaker 1: Oh man, steak restaurants, get in on this. This is great,

718
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:43,759
Speaker 1: great advertising for your Valentine's Day meals as well your

719
00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:46,560
Speaker 1: Valentine's Day specials. You know, get people into that steak

720
00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:49,560
Speaker 1: dinner with the diamonds. Have the diamond stuck to the steak.

721
00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:56,400
Speaker 2: We call this a binvenudo special. I felt it crash

722
00:40:56,520 --> 00:40:57,480
Speaker 2: beneath my teeth.

723
00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:00,800
Speaker 1: All right. On that note, we're going to gohead and

724
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:03,160
Speaker 1: close out this episode, but we will be back with

725
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:05,960
Speaker 1: at least a third Diamond episode because all there's more

726
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:08,320
Speaker 1: stuff we didn't even have time for. There's more stuff

727
00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:14,600
Speaker 1: involving various bodily fluids. We'll definitely get into some more myths.

728
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:19,520
Speaker 1: We'll get into some other topics, cosmic, spiritual.

729
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:19,480
Speaker 2: You name it.

730
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:22,920
Speaker 1: We will return to it in the next episode. In

731
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:25,520
Speaker 1: the meantime, Yah, we'd love to hear from all of you.

732
00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:27,840
Speaker 1: We have a couple of episodes on diamonds already. You

733
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:31,040
Speaker 1: might have some thoughts, some feedback on anything we've discussed here.

734
00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:34,360
Speaker 1: Maybe you're a diamond fan and maybe you hate diamonds.

735
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:36,400
Speaker 1: Maybe you have some sort of cultural connection with diamonds.

736
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:40,279
Speaker 1: Maybe you yourself work with diamonds. Right in we'd love

737
00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:43,000
Speaker 1: to hear from you. Just a reminder that core episodes

738
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:45,480
Speaker 1: of Stuff to Blow Your Mind publish on Tuesdays and Thursdays,

739
00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:48,040
Speaker 1: and the Stuff to Blow your Mind podcast feed short

740
00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:50,640
Speaker 1: form episodes go out on Wednesday, listener mail on Mondays,

741
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:52,880
Speaker 1: and on Fridays. We set aside most serious concerns to

742
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:55,879
Speaker 1: just talk about a weird movie on Weird House Cinema.

743
00:41:56,080 --> 00:42:00,000
Speaker 2: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway.

744
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:02,000
Speaker 2: If you would like to get in touch with us

745
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:04,560
Speaker 2: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest

746
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:06,600
Speaker 2: a topic for the future, or just to say hello,

747
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:09,680
Speaker 2: you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow

748
00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:18,239
Speaker 2: your Mind dot com.

749
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:21,239
Speaker 3: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

750
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:24,120
Speaker 3: more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

751
00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:41,239
Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,