WEBVTT - Selects: How Conversion Therapy Doesn't Work 0:00:00.800 --> 0:00:03.680 Good day everyone. This is Chuck here on a Saturday 0:00:03.720 --> 0:00:08.400 with a Selex episode about conversion therapy boo. And you 0:00:08.440 --> 0:00:11.680 know what, regardless of what you think about conversion therapy, 0:00:12.520 --> 0:00:15.000 it doesn't work. And so that's why this episode is 0:00:15.040 --> 0:00:18.680 titled how Conversion Therapy Doesn't Work from November twenty nineteen. 0:00:19.120 --> 0:00:22.000 And if you're wondering before you listen, what is conversion therapy? 0:00:22.400 --> 0:00:28.480 That's when parents try to make their LGTBQ. Let's just 0:00:28.560 --> 0:00:32.360 put it in that whole bucket. Child not that, and 0:00:32.400 --> 0:00:35.479 it's just not possible because that's who they are. So 0:00:35.640 --> 0:00:37.840 I hope you enjoy this episode, and if you don't 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:38.639 keep it to. 0:00:38.600 --> 0:00:52.960 Yourself, welcome to stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:53.640 --> 0:00:56.480 Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. There's 0:00:56.600 --> 0:00:59.880 Charles W. Chuck Bryant, there's guest producer Josh Over There. 0:01:00.480 --> 0:01:03.560 Don't be confused, everybody, there are more than one Josh 0:01:03.960 --> 0:01:06.440 in the world. It's nice to hear you finally admit 0:01:06.520 --> 0:01:09.759 that it's taken a long time, a lot of therapy, 0:01:10.959 --> 0:01:14.640 a nice segue, it's like a short stuff. I'm like, 0:01:14.720 --> 0:01:16.039 let's get to it, let's get going. 0:01:16.400 --> 0:01:17.760 Well, I have a CoA to issue. 0:01:18.560 --> 0:01:21.280 Eh. You know what cracks me up as people who 0:01:21.319 --> 0:01:23.920 are still like, what does that mean? You figure it 0:01:23.959 --> 0:01:26.160 out and you can email eventually some people will. 0:01:26.760 --> 0:01:27.120 Yeah. 0:01:27.160 --> 0:01:29.400 So my CoA is just a personal CoA that I'm 0:01:29.440 --> 0:01:32.959 going to try and just disguise my disdain for this 0:01:33.160 --> 0:01:33.720 entire topic. 0:01:34.080 --> 0:01:36.679 Okay, but I might not do a great job about it. 0:01:37.000 --> 0:01:39.640 Well you've already shown your hands, all right, good, that's 0:01:39.680 --> 0:01:44.600 my CoA. Yeah. Yeah, I don't think there's too many 0:01:44.600 --> 0:01:47.319 stuff you should know listeners who are probably into this. 0:01:47.720 --> 0:01:48.160 Yeah what. 0:01:48.600 --> 0:01:51.200 But part of the problem is we'll see later in 0:01:51.240 --> 0:01:54.920 this episode, is part of the problem with conversion therapies 0:01:54.960 --> 0:01:58.080 coverage in the media, Oh yeah, is that it has 0:01:58.200 --> 0:02:01.760 largely been fairly even handed and described as like this 0:02:01.960 --> 0:02:07.960 controversial therapy and not said this scam and this junk 0:02:08.000 --> 0:02:11.840 science fraud igetrated by zelots super harmful. 0:02:12.000 --> 0:02:14.919 Yeah. Yeah, so that's where I that's where I am. 0:02:15.000 --> 0:02:17.120 You know. That stuck out to me too, that in 0:02:17.160 --> 0:02:20.560 the late nineties we'll talk about it, especially when it 0:02:20.600 --> 0:02:22.960 was treated even handily, and it made me think like 0:02:23.000 --> 0:02:26.560 we should do an episode on that, like the like 0:02:26.840 --> 0:02:30.880 should the media treat all sides of an issue equally, 0:02:31.200 --> 0:02:34.400 and if it does, does that just like perpetuate ignorance, 0:02:34.960 --> 0:02:38.280 or if it doesn't, does that like support fascism? Right, 0:02:38.560 --> 0:02:41.079 Like that's a hornet. I really think we should do 0:02:41.120 --> 0:02:44.840 it sometimes it is. That's a good good call, Thank you, Charles. 0:02:44.880 --> 0:02:47.239 I don't know how we I mean, I guess I 0:02:47.280 --> 0:02:52.160 could be researched. Yeah, surely somebody's done a think piece 0:02:52.200 --> 0:02:55.600 on it, and we can springboard off of you know, 0:02:56.040 --> 0:03:00.440 I think piece. That's right, that's what we do most 0:03:00.480 --> 0:03:02.120 of our research. I think piece. 0:03:03.080 --> 0:03:06.079 This is from one of our great writers, Julia Layton, 0:03:07.160 --> 0:03:09.520 and she put this a lot of this stuff together 0:03:09.560 --> 0:03:09.920 for us. 0:03:10.680 --> 0:03:12.160 Yeah, she did a good job on this. 0:03:12.320 --> 0:03:14.080 So like the additional histories you found. 0:03:13.919 --> 0:03:18.160 Out though, Yeah, because this this so we we'll define 0:03:18.160 --> 0:03:19.800 it first and then we'll talk about some histories. But 0:03:19.880 --> 0:03:23.600 this stuff goes back way further than you would think. 0:03:23.680 --> 0:03:26.440 But what we're talking about today is called conversion therapy, 0:03:27.080 --> 0:03:30.919 reparative therapy ex gay therapy, where. 0:03:31.400 --> 0:03:33.919 Reporative therapy is trademarked by the way we should. 0:03:33.600 --> 0:03:36.280 Say, Well, you couldn't hear it, but under my breath, 0:03:36.280 --> 0:03:41.040 I said, yeah, more like ts it was. Yeah, it 0:03:41.080 --> 0:03:45.400 was trademarked by a psychologist named Joseph Nicolosi, Yes, senior. 0:03:46.680 --> 0:03:50.720 So what conversion therapy is probably what we're gonna mostly 0:03:50.760 --> 0:03:53.680 call it though, what it's what it is is it's 0:03:53.760 --> 0:04:00.840 an alleged psychological theory and practice that is based on 0:04:00.920 --> 0:04:07.720 the idea that all people are born heterosexual, and because 0:04:07.880 --> 0:04:09.040 of certain. 0:04:11.520 --> 0:04:15.120 Certain events past traumas usually. 0:04:14.920 --> 0:04:19.760 Traumas typically, but also the family dynamics play a huge role, 0:04:21.320 --> 0:04:24.720 people who would otherwise are meant to be heterosexual can 0:04:24.760 --> 0:04:28.640 be accidentally steered into homosexuality. 0:04:27.839 --> 0:04:32.400 And therefore can be or purposefully steered back cured, yes, 0:04:32.520 --> 0:04:36.919 cured being gay, right back to the righteous land of heterosexuality. 0:04:37.640 --> 0:04:41.400 And as you can imagine that this is a very 0:04:41.440 --> 0:04:45.720 popular with the fundamentalist Christian right. Sure, And I mean 0:04:45.760 --> 0:04:49.600 like that's not even like a guess like it overtly is. 0:04:49.680 --> 0:04:53.679 They've adopted and taken on X gay, the X gay movement, 0:04:54.279 --> 0:04:59.320 as as basically one of the what's it called an 0:04:59.320 --> 0:05:03.880 a tempole temp post, Sure, one of the planks in 0:05:03.920 --> 0:05:06.640 there in the Christian Rights Platform for Social Change. 0:05:06.800 --> 0:05:09.760 Oh, it is an if It was officially part of 0:05:09.760 --> 0:05:12.280 the twenty sixteen Republican Party platform. 0:05:12.360 --> 0:05:14.599 Even what that's right? 0:05:15.520 --> 0:05:18.800 Well, wait, the whole RNC yeah, which has been called 0:05:19.120 --> 0:05:22.640 the twenty sixteen platform, has been called by far the 0:05:22.680 --> 0:05:27.480 most anti LGTBQ platform in the nation's history. 0:05:27.520 --> 0:05:29.599 Wow, I mean yeah, If that's a plank in the 0:05:29.640 --> 0:05:32.560 party's platform, that's pretty significant. Like they don't throw just 0:05:32.600 --> 0:05:36.479 anything in there, No, they don't. So with the with 0:05:36.480 --> 0:05:42.320 with the X gay movement and conversion therapy, I saw 0:05:42.360 --> 0:05:45.920 it described at least back in the late nineties as 0:05:46.240 --> 0:05:50.200 a front in the culture war that's as strong and 0:05:50.240 --> 0:05:55.080 as significant as abortion. Like the the the Christian right 0:05:55.480 --> 0:06:00.240 in particular is has basically dedicated itself to stamping out 0:06:00.240 --> 0:06:06.000 gayness and by converting gay people to straightness. The problem 0:06:06.080 --> 0:06:09.880 is is there is no scientific evidence whatsoever that that 0:06:10.000 --> 0:06:11.760 is even possible. 0:06:11.880 --> 0:06:14.080 Right, And the problem is when you try and stamp 0:06:14.120 --> 0:06:16.640 out gayness, that creates a good beat that you can 0:06:16.720 --> 0:06:17.080 dance to. 0:06:18.760 --> 0:06:20.920 It makes that sound, and they're like no, no, no, no, no, 0:06:21.000 --> 0:06:22.599 stop stamping exactly. 0:06:22.640 --> 0:06:24.479 I had actually I went to well, should I say this? 0:06:25.320 --> 0:06:26.440 I don't sure? Why not? 0:06:26.560 --> 0:06:28.520 Because this is the truth. I went to a church 0:06:28.520 --> 0:06:29.760 camp once when I was a youth. 0:06:29.960 --> 0:06:31.600 Well, I figured a story or two like. 0:06:33.279 --> 0:06:33.359 That. 0:06:33.520 --> 0:06:36.840 They talked about stomping your feet to the music or 0:06:36.839 --> 0:06:40.240 whatever they're playing, and they literally said, don't alternate feet 0:06:40.279 --> 0:06:41.760 because that's too close to dancing. 0:06:42.560 --> 0:06:43.280 Wow. 0:06:43.480 --> 0:06:47.240 Right, Yeah, And these weren't, like, I mean, these were 0:06:47.360 --> 0:06:49.200 pretty mainstream Baptist church camps. 0:06:49.240 --> 0:06:50.760 It wasn't like I went to. 0:06:50.760 --> 0:06:52.320 Some snake handling thing. 0:06:52.520 --> 0:06:53.800 No, not at all. 0:06:53.880 --> 0:06:55.400 But I had a really good episode on that. 0:06:55.520 --> 0:06:58.680 Yeah, that was a good one. So anyway, stomp your feet, everybody, 0:06:59.320 --> 0:07:00.240 just don't altern. 0:07:02.279 --> 0:07:04.359 So you stomp them both at once, because that's. 0:07:04.360 --> 0:07:06.359 Not just stomp one foot just on your right foot. 0:07:06.520 --> 0:07:09.880 I was gonna say, that's just jumping lightly. Okay. So 0:07:10.200 --> 0:07:12.120 that's what we're talking about is conversion therapy. And like 0:07:12.160 --> 0:07:17.480 I said, it became part of the Christian rights kind 0:07:17.520 --> 0:07:21.440 of philosophy and part of their culture war, their culture 0:07:21.480 --> 0:07:25.640 war they're fighting. But it goes back way further than 0:07:25.640 --> 0:07:27.840 that then. I think it was the late nineties when 0:07:27.920 --> 0:07:31.560 the right kind of adopted it. As a matter of fact, 0:07:31.600 --> 0:07:36.200 like into the nineteenth century, there were people who subscribed 0:07:36.240 --> 0:07:38.800 to this, but they were all psychologists. This is back 0:07:38.840 --> 0:07:41.880 at the time when you could be a ghost investigator 0:07:41.920 --> 0:07:45.640 and say I'm a psychologist. This is the times when 0:07:45.680 --> 0:07:48.200 you could say, you know, this cigar reminds you of 0:07:48.240 --> 0:07:50.520 your mother, you know what I'm saying, right, and you 0:07:50.560 --> 0:07:52.760 could be a psychologist. You could be a father of 0:07:52.800 --> 0:07:54.120 psychology at that point. 0:07:54.400 --> 0:07:57.120 Yeah, you dug up a great article from history dot 0:07:57.120 --> 0:08:02.320 com called Gay Conversion Therapy is Disturbing nineteenth Century Origins 0:08:02.720 --> 0:08:06.280 by Aaron Blakemore and Mary Nice. 0:08:06.320 --> 0:08:07.120 Attribution check. 0:08:07.200 --> 0:08:10.400 Uh, yeah, Well, Aaron wrote a great article and in 0:08:10.480 --> 0:08:16.480 it she talks about in eighteen ninety nine this hypnosis. Well, 0:08:16.520 --> 0:08:18.760 again in the days where you could be a hypnotist 0:08:19.360 --> 0:08:22.240 and be a legitimate scientist at the same time, get. 0:08:22.080 --> 0:08:24.640 In a stage shows, or's psychology. 0:08:24.680 --> 0:08:26.400 That's right, maybe where's the money? 0:08:27.280 --> 0:08:30.040 But he was German, of course, and he claimed to 0:08:30.120 --> 0:08:34.679 have turned a gay man straight after forty five hypnosis 0:08:34.760 --> 0:08:38.160 sessions and some other therapies. And that's sort of the 0:08:38.160 --> 0:08:42.640 first evidence of what we would later call conversion therapy 0:08:42.760 --> 0:08:46.760 starting up. Yeah, although I'm sure even before that people 0:08:46.920 --> 0:08:49.360 they probably didn't call it conversion therapy. But if you 0:08:49.400 --> 0:08:52.760 were an effeminate man, you were no doubt probably beaten 0:08:52.800 --> 0:08:55.640 by your parents and shunned by your community. 0:08:55.920 --> 0:08:58.600 Right, I think one of the other things. It's kind 0:08:58.640 --> 0:09:02.000 of a hallmark of this long tradition of converting people 0:09:02.480 --> 0:09:05.520 from being gay to straight or trying to. Is this 0:09:05.640 --> 0:09:08.360 idea that there's something wrong with you if you're gay, 0:09:09.040 --> 0:09:12.240 and that that idea can actually become hung up on 0:09:12.360 --> 0:09:15.560 the individual, the gay person, so that they actually do 0:09:15.640 --> 0:09:20.160 seek out help in becoming straight. But the problem is 0:09:20.679 --> 0:09:22.840 in seeking that help, they're going to be frustrated, and 0:09:22.880 --> 0:09:27.079 they're ultimately probably going to be They're going to have 0:09:27.120 --> 0:09:31.680 feelings of shame, guilt, inadequacy that they're not capable of 0:09:32.000 --> 0:09:34.640 helping themselves. There's something wrong with them. Why can't they 0:09:34.640 --> 0:09:36.520 just be straight? Kind of thing. And then if you're 0:09:36.559 --> 0:09:39.320 a minor and your parents are forcing this on you, 0:09:39.960 --> 0:09:43.959 then that raises it a whole other can of worms 0:09:44.000 --> 0:09:47.240 of ethical dilemmas. Sure, but even from the outset there 0:09:47.240 --> 0:09:52.079 were probably people who sought out hypnotists and other psychologists 0:09:52.120 --> 0:09:55.320 for help. It wasn't just people walking around kidnapping gay 0:09:55.320 --> 0:09:57.240 people and taking them off the street and trying to. 0:09:57.200 --> 0:09:59.640 Convert them, right, It could have very well been some 0:09:59.760 --> 0:10:01.960 man that's like, wait a minute, I don't feel normal 0:10:01.960 --> 0:10:05.480 feelings because I'm looking at Joe out there in the 0:10:05.520 --> 0:10:08.040 field and things are happening, right, if you know what 0:10:08.040 --> 0:10:09.719 I mean, Doc, And they're like, well, come on. 0:10:09.679 --> 0:10:13.280 In watching him swing that scythe and take his sweaty 0:10:13.400 --> 0:10:18.040 shirt off, wring it over his face, that kind of thing. 0:10:18.000 --> 0:10:20.840 Right, So just sit down and follow the wristwatch with 0:10:20.880 --> 0:10:23.280 your eyesight or I guess the pocket watch. 0:10:23.400 --> 0:10:28.800 That'd be a weird U technique move when moving. But 0:10:28.960 --> 0:10:31.240 from that same history dot Com article there. 0:10:32.800 --> 0:10:35.040 She she talks about some of the early attempts, like 0:10:35.080 --> 0:10:38.600 with electro convulsive therapy. Yeah, lobotomies. I think we even 0:10:38.600 --> 0:10:40.880 talked about some of the lobotomy's episode. 0:10:40.520 --> 0:10:42.520 And may we give you a lobotomy for anything? 0:10:42.760 --> 0:10:43.240 Oh? Sure? 0:10:43.440 --> 0:10:45.360 What about testicular transplantation? 0:10:45.800 --> 0:10:49.679 Right, because that was a theory from a doctor, an 0:10:49.679 --> 0:10:54.520 intercrinologist name Eugene Steinach, who thought that your testicles were 0:10:54.559 --> 0:10:55.520 the root of the problem. 0:10:55.600 --> 0:10:56.560 Well a lot of people did. 0:10:56.800 --> 0:10:57.040 Yeah. 0:10:57.120 --> 0:10:58.079 There was like you. 0:10:58.040 --> 0:11:00.920 Could have gay testicles literally and they would swap them 0:11:00.920 --> 0:11:01.760 out for straight ones. 0:11:02.200 --> 0:11:05.560 Right, And there's no I could not find any evidence 0:11:05.600 --> 0:11:08.280 one way or the other that any of these testicular 0:11:08.320 --> 0:11:11.520 transplants worked or were successful. I don't think they were, 0:11:11.679 --> 0:11:14.400 but I didn't see anything that said like all of 0:11:14.400 --> 0:11:17.000 those failed or whatever, but like what happened? They just 0:11:17.000 --> 0:11:18.760 shrivel up and fall off or something. 0:11:18.800 --> 0:11:22.280 So do you mean if it actually like medically took 0:11:22.360 --> 0:11:24.440 to the body or yeah, yeah, that's. 0:11:24.320 --> 0:11:24.679 What I mean. 0:11:24.760 --> 0:11:28.080 Okay, saying like did it convert them? Did it work? 0:11:28.200 --> 0:11:28.680 Right? Yeah? 0:11:28.760 --> 0:11:30.440 No, Yeah that's the answer. 0:11:30.720 --> 0:11:32.360 But yeah, I didn't know that you could in the 0:11:32.440 --> 0:11:36.359 nineteen twenties held a testical transplant successfully. 0:11:36.520 --> 0:11:39.839 That's what I'm saying, Like, I surely I mean at 0:11:39.880 --> 0:11:42.559 some point, and we must have talked about this in 0:11:42.600 --> 0:11:48.559 the Michael Daylan episode. We talked about that. I don't 0:11:48.600 --> 0:11:50.520 think it was but it wasn't a transplant. It was 0:11:50.559 --> 0:11:54.200 just a straight up removal an archaeactomy I believe castration. So, 0:11:54.360 --> 0:11:59.240 but at some point testicles have been transplanted onto a 0:11:59.320 --> 0:12:02.560 person successfully. When did that happen? Is my question. 0:12:02.800 --> 0:12:04.479 It probably did to a dog first. 0:12:04.440 --> 0:12:06.640 Right, But I mean think about it, like if it 0:12:06.679 --> 0:12:09.360 didn't work, well, sorry you're castrated now. 0:12:10.280 --> 0:12:12.120 Yeah they probably didn't say sorry though, no. 0:12:12.280 --> 0:12:15.480 But we took your gay testicles. The heterosexual testicles just 0:12:15.480 --> 0:12:17.640 didn't pan out, right, But now you don't have any 0:12:17.640 --> 0:12:19.040 testicles gay or otherwise. 0:12:19.200 --> 0:12:19.680 That's right. 0:12:20.640 --> 0:12:22.679 Some of the other awful techniques that they would use 0:12:22.679 --> 0:12:27.280 back in the day were chemicals that they might have 0:12:27.360 --> 0:12:29.720 to make you wretch and vomit when you look at, 0:12:29.840 --> 0:12:32.720 you know, pictures of people of the same sex. 0:12:33.360 --> 0:12:35.080 That's called covert sensitization. 0:12:35.559 --> 0:12:35.800 Yeah. 0:12:36.040 --> 0:12:39.160 Yeah, or if you're cross dressing maybe same thing, sure, 0:12:39.360 --> 0:12:41.480 or look in a mirror and be disgusted with yourself 0:12:41.480 --> 0:12:42.480 and wretch and vomit. 0:12:42.840 --> 0:12:47.960 Yeah, and very sadly, if you have, say like as 0:12:47.960 --> 0:12:50.160 someone you were in a relationship with that you love, 0:12:50.880 --> 0:12:53.800 they might show you a picture of that person and 0:12:54.000 --> 0:12:59.160 carry out aversive therapy or aversive conditioning. What's weird, As 0:12:59.200 --> 0:13:01.440 you said, these are these are things they used to 0:13:01.520 --> 0:13:06.600 carry out. From what I've seen, this stuff still goes 0:13:06.640 --> 0:13:09.800 on today, Yeah, some of it. So what we're talking 0:13:09.800 --> 0:13:12.199 about though, back in the nineteenth and most of the 0:13:12.520 --> 0:13:16.120 first half or so of the twentieth century, this was 0:13:16.160 --> 0:13:20.440 all like the domain of psychology, and then eventually gay 0:13:20.480 --> 0:13:25.080 psychologists and other straight psychologists too. We're basically like, this 0:13:25.280 --> 0:13:28.320 is wrong, yea, Like the science is not adding up, 0:13:29.679 --> 0:13:32.239 this is just this is just incorrect. 0:13:32.360 --> 0:13:35.720 Yeah. There were medical doctors too, though, wasn't just psychologists. 0:13:35.040 --> 0:13:35.520 Right, sure? 0:13:35.600 --> 0:13:35.920 Yeah. 0:13:36.080 --> 0:13:42.000 So eventually, in nineteen seventy three, the American Psychological Association said, hey, 0:13:42.000 --> 0:13:46.319 big news, We're no longer going to classify homosexuality as 0:13:46.640 --> 0:13:48.160 a mental disorder. 0:13:48.240 --> 0:13:51.319 Right, And a certain part of the population went, yeah, 0:13:51.360 --> 0:13:52.559 it's nineteen seventy two. 0:13:52.559 --> 0:13:53.600 Why did it take this long? 0:13:53.720 --> 0:13:56.000 Right? Exactly? Yeah, But that was a big deal, and 0:13:56.040 --> 0:14:01.520 at that point a psychology mostly abandoned and the idea 0:14:02.080 --> 0:14:06.440 that being gay was a disorder of any kind, and 0:14:06.480 --> 0:14:09.240 therefore there was no point in researching how to cure 0:14:09.280 --> 0:14:11.720 someone of being gay, and so it turned its back 0:14:11.800 --> 0:14:18.240 on this whole history of conversion conversion. Yeah, but it 0:14:18.320 --> 0:14:21.480 didn't fully die away, and I believe starting in like 0:14:21.520 --> 0:14:24.760 the eighties, the Christian rights started to kind of pick 0:14:24.880 --> 0:14:27.920 up on it and kind of breathe new life into 0:14:27.960 --> 0:14:28.360 it again. 0:14:29.000 --> 0:14:32.240 That's right, I think we should take a break. Yeah, 0:14:32.840 --> 0:14:34.840 that's a robust and a half setup. 0:14:35.040 --> 0:14:36.760 Is that? Oh? I thought we were already into it. 0:14:36.760 --> 0:14:37.360 Oh my gosh. 0:14:37.920 --> 0:14:40.400 It wasn't just a setup. It was more you're right, 0:14:40.760 --> 0:14:41.440 we'll be right. 0:14:41.320 --> 0:14:59.160 Back, Josh shock. 0:15:07.560 --> 0:15:10.680 All right, So let's talk a little bit about because 0:15:10.680 --> 0:15:14.560 there's a couple of a couple of schools of thought here, 0:15:15.640 --> 0:15:20.680 and I hesitate to one to call the one more bonafide. 0:15:21.440 --> 0:15:23.920 But you know, there's conversion therapy that can happen at 0:15:23.920 --> 0:15:27.560 a licensed therapist office. And there's conversion therapy that can 0:15:27.640 --> 0:15:31.480 happen in you know, somebody's basement or the basement of 0:15:31.520 --> 0:15:31.920 a church. 0:15:32.040 --> 0:15:34.600 I was gonna sae basement too, Yeah, or a room. 0:15:34.680 --> 0:15:35.240 Didn't have to be a. 0:15:35.240 --> 0:15:37.440 Basement, I know, but a basement makes it seem sure, 0:15:37.760 --> 0:15:38.760 that's probably sinister. 0:15:38.960 --> 0:15:41.840 That's probably why I said it. So there are two 0:15:41.840 --> 0:15:44.680 sort of ways is that that can happen. We're gonna 0:15:44.680 --> 0:15:48.960 talk a little bit about the first way, the patented 0:15:49.080 --> 0:15:55.040 way repaired to therapy trademark by Joseph Nicolosi. 0:15:55.560 --> 0:15:57.840 That guy doesn't even get the Italian accent, man, and 0:15:57.880 --> 0:15:59.080 I don't believe he. 0:15:59.160 --> 0:16:01.840 Doesn't, which we should say, by the way, in July 0:16:01.960 --> 0:16:07.080 this year, Amazon stopped carrying his works on their website. 0:16:07.440 --> 0:16:13.320 Yeah, because they they considered them that they promoted fraud, 0:16:13.600 --> 0:16:14.720 that's right, which we'll get to. 0:16:14.960 --> 0:16:15.960 Yeah, which is interesting. 0:16:16.160 --> 0:16:19.560 But this guy is like a psychologist. Yeah, he's a 0:16:19.640 --> 0:16:22.440 trained psychologist who basically said I'm going to take everything 0:16:22.480 --> 0:16:25.000 I learned and direct it toward curing gay people of 0:16:25.160 --> 0:16:25.640 being gay. 0:16:26.040 --> 0:16:27.800 Yeah, I don't know much about do you know much 0:16:27.800 --> 0:16:29.840 about his religiosity? 0:16:29.960 --> 0:16:33.360 Or I think he was Jewish? Okay, I'm born in Brooklyn. 0:16:33.400 --> 0:16:35.680 From what I understand, I read a really really great 0:16:36.320 --> 0:16:39.680 article not a think piece, but a memoir in the 0:16:39.720 --> 0:16:45.480 American Prospect from American Prospector from twenty twelve. Yah, it's 0:16:45.600 --> 0:16:50.520 different Their Gold by Gabriel Arana. Okay, it's called my 0:16:50.640 --> 0:16:53.800 so called ex gay Life. It's definitely worth reading. But 0:16:53.840 --> 0:16:59.160 it's a great look at conversion therapy, but also is 0:16:59.200 --> 0:17:02.600 like overlaid with his personal experience with it. Okay. 0:17:03.320 --> 0:17:06.720 At any rate, his contention was that, like we said, 0:17:07.680 --> 0:17:12.199 you develop homosexuality or homosexual feelings at least because of 0:17:12.200 --> 0:17:16.400 a result of environmental conditions, childhood traumas, and they call 0:17:16.440 --> 0:17:19.600 it same sex attraction SSSA, and that could stem, in 0:17:19.640 --> 0:17:23.240 his opinion, from a few different things desire for adventure, 0:17:23.600 --> 0:17:30.320 peer acceptance, loneliness or boredemer curiosity, approval or affection from males. 0:17:30.720 --> 0:17:32.359 And a lot of this is centered on men, although 0:17:32.400 --> 0:17:34.880 it's certainly women have been involved in. 0:17:34.840 --> 0:17:35.359 This as well. 0:17:36.800 --> 0:17:37.560 Yeah, we'll get to that. 0:17:37.640 --> 0:17:39.119 Yeah, But a lot of them. A lot of this 0:17:39.200 --> 0:17:41.560 over the years is making gay men straight. 0:17:42.800 --> 0:17:43.919 Oh yeah, I see what you mean. 0:17:44.000 --> 0:17:45.679 Yeah, but it's not exclusive to that. 0:17:45.880 --> 0:17:50.800 No, it's not general rebellion, which is pretty funny. And 0:17:50.840 --> 0:17:54.560 then sexual molestation by another male. 0:17:54.760 --> 0:17:57.280 And I think that is a very like I think 0:17:58.000 --> 0:18:01.879 that the idea that that leads to being gay is 0:18:02.240 --> 0:18:06.680 very widespread in culture, well beyond the Christian rioter people 0:18:06.680 --> 0:18:09.120 who believe in conversion therapy, the idea that if you're 0:18:09.119 --> 0:18:11.960 sexually abused by a man or somebody of your same sex, 0:18:12.560 --> 0:18:16.359 become Gayah, which is just wrong, but I think a 0:18:16.359 --> 0:18:18.240 lot of people still believe that. I know, that's what 0:18:18.280 --> 0:18:19.360 I thought when I was a kid. 0:18:19.560 --> 0:18:21.639 Yeah, that's right. I mean it's not right. 0:18:21.760 --> 0:18:24.520 No, it's utterly wrong. But yeah. 0:18:24.560 --> 0:18:28.120 And the whole basis of Nickelosi's theory he takes back 0:18:28.119 --> 0:18:31.119 to a study from nineteen ninety two called Demography of 0:18:31.160 --> 0:18:34.760 Sexual Orientation and Adolescence. And this was an actual study 0:18:34.760 --> 0:18:37.840 from the Journal Pediatrics that looked at patterns of sexual 0:18:37.920 --> 0:18:41.000 orientation and high school students in Minnesota, And what they 0:18:41.040 --> 0:18:44.439 found out was that younger teens in Minnesota in this 0:18:44.520 --> 0:18:50.640 study were more likely to express sexual confusion about their 0:18:50.680 --> 0:18:54.560 orientation when they were younger, and as they grew older, 0:18:55.320 --> 0:18:59.679 they were less confused about their sexual identity and orientation. Right. 0:19:00.000 --> 0:19:03.080 It's a legit study, and I think that probably anyone 0:19:03.080 --> 0:19:06.200 who's ever been an early teenager and a late teenager 0:19:06.240 --> 0:19:09.240 can be like that sounds about right exactly, you know. 0:19:09.440 --> 0:19:13.240 But the extrapolation that Nicolosi did was what's the problem 0:19:13.280 --> 0:19:13.960 as right. 0:19:14.160 --> 0:19:17.719 So Nicolosi was saying, like, yes, that shows that like 0:19:17.800 --> 0:19:23.080 you're you're you're in a dangerous place earlier on, and 0:19:23.119 --> 0:19:25.520 that if a couple of things happen in a certain way, 0:19:25.920 --> 0:19:28.440 you can be veered off of this natural path toward 0:19:28.520 --> 0:19:31.760 heterosexuality into homosexuality. 0:19:30.880 --> 0:19:34.440 Right, and also more dangerously that means we got to 0:19:34.440 --> 0:19:35.280 get them while they're young. 0:19:35.520 --> 0:19:38.320 Right. So one of the other things that he's he 0:19:38.800 --> 0:19:44.480 really based his practice on was this family triad of 0:19:44.680 --> 0:19:51.800 a domineering, over attendant mother, a passive, detached father, and 0:19:51.880 --> 0:19:58.320 a sensitive child books in kind of in that was 0:19:58.320 --> 0:20:04.160 a good one in that that triangle like you would 0:20:04.359 --> 0:20:07.760 like almost certainly have a gay kid if somebody didn't intervene. 0:20:07.880 --> 0:20:11.480 So he decided like this was his career was intervening 0:20:11.480 --> 0:20:13.919 in that kind of stuff, but that in and of 0:20:13.960 --> 0:20:19.560 itself has never been proven to create gay kids. That like, 0:20:19.600 --> 0:20:22.040 whether you believe in conversion therapy or not, if you 0:20:22.119 --> 0:20:24.320 have a domineering mother and have some father and you're 0:20:24.359 --> 0:20:27.479 like a sensitive type who likes dolls, even doesn't mean 0:20:27.480 --> 0:20:30.320 you're going to turn gay. This is the basis of 0:20:30.320 --> 0:20:33.040 that though, is that yes, you will turn gay. And 0:20:34.119 --> 0:20:36.640 still to this day this idea is allowed to live 0:20:36.680 --> 0:20:40.880 because science is never fully satisfied the question like are 0:20:40.920 --> 0:20:43.840 we born gay? Do we develop being gay? And it 0:20:43.880 --> 0:20:47.399 looks like it's on a pretty strong track toward a 0:20:47.480 --> 0:20:52.320 genetic basis of homosexuality, but it's still nothing's definitive, and 0:20:52.359 --> 0:20:55.040 so people can say, well, maybe we do develop, you know, 0:20:56.040 --> 0:20:59.640 an adolescence, you know, being gay or whatever, because science 0:20:59.680 --> 0:21:01.960 is not filled this void cor yet. 0:21:02.400 --> 0:21:02.680 Yeah. 0:21:02.680 --> 0:21:06.520 And the way Nicolosi will would write about this stuff 0:21:06.560 --> 0:21:09.160 and describe it as in a very sort of professional, 0:21:09.200 --> 0:21:13.719 innocuous type way where a casual reader might say, well, 0:21:13.760 --> 0:21:15.800 this seems totally valid and above board. 0:21:15.880 --> 0:21:18.920 Yeah, a Newsweek reader, yeah, or an OPRAH viewer. 0:21:18.800 --> 0:21:22.240 That's right. This is one of the things. 0:21:22.440 --> 0:21:24.840 I think This is from one of his books and 0:21:25.000 --> 0:21:27.600 This is how he describes a relationship to from patient 0:21:27.640 --> 0:21:30.399 to therapists. The client has come to the therapist seeking 0:21:30.440 --> 0:21:34.960 assistance to reduce something distressing to him, and the RT 0:21:35.240 --> 0:21:39.280 psychotherapist agrees to share his professional experience in education to 0:21:39.320 --> 0:21:41.600 help the client meet his own goal. His own goal, 0:21:42.240 --> 0:21:45.080 the therapist enters into a collaborative relationship, agreeing to work 0:21:45.119 --> 0:21:48.160 with the client to reduce his unwanted attractions and explore 0:21:48.200 --> 0:21:53.320