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Speaker 1: Good day everyone. This is Chuck here on a Saturday

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Speaker 1: with a Selex episode about conversion therapy boo. And you

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Speaker 1: know what, regardless of what you think about conversion therapy,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't work. And so that's why this episode is

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Speaker 1: titled how Conversion Therapy Doesn't Work from November twenty nineteen.

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Speaker 1: And if you're wondering before you listen, what is conversion therapy?

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Speaker 1: That's when parents try to make their LGTBQ. Let's just

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Speaker 1: put it in that whole bucket. Child not that, and

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Speaker 1: it's just not possible because that's who they are. So

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Speaker 1: I hope you enjoy this episode, and if you don't

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Speaker 1: keep it to.

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Speaker 2: Yourself, welcome to stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 3: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. There's

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Speaker 3: Charles W. Chuck Bryant, there's guest producer Josh Over There.

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Speaker 3: Don't be confused, everybody, there are more than one Josh

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Speaker 3: in the world. It's nice to hear you finally admit

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Speaker 3: that it's taken a long time, a lot of therapy,

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Speaker 3: a nice segue, it's like a short stuff. I'm like,

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Speaker 3: let's get to it, let's get going.

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Speaker 4: Well, I have a CoA to issue.

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Speaker 3: Eh. You know what cracks me up as people who

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Speaker 3: are still like, what does that mean? You figure it

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Speaker 3: out and you can email eventually some people will.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So my CoA is just a personal CoA that I'm

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Speaker 1: going to try and just disguise my disdain for this

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Speaker 1: entire topic.

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Speaker 4: Okay, but I might not do a great job about it.

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Speaker 3: Well you've already shown your hands, all right, good, that's

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Speaker 3: my CoA. Yeah. Yeah, I don't think there's too many

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Speaker 3: stuff you should know listeners who are probably into this.

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Speaker 4: Yeah what.

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Speaker 1: But part of the problem is we'll see later in

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Speaker 1: this episode, is part of the problem with conversion therapies

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Speaker 1: coverage in the media, Oh yeah, is that it has

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Speaker 1: largely been fairly even handed and described as like this

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Speaker 1: controversial therapy and not said this scam and this junk

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Speaker 1: science fraud igetrated by zelots super harmful.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, so that's where I that's where I am.

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Speaker 3: You know. That stuck out to me too, that in

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Speaker 3: the late nineties we'll talk about it, especially when it

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Speaker 3: was treated even handily, and it made me think like

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Speaker 3: we should do an episode on that, like the like

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Speaker 3: should the media treat all sides of an issue equally,

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Speaker 3: and if it does, does that just like perpetuate ignorance,

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Speaker 3: or if it doesn't, does that like support fascism? Right,

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Speaker 3: Like that's a hornet. I really think we should do

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Speaker 3: it sometimes it is. That's a good good call, Thank you, Charles.

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Speaker 3: I don't know how we I mean, I guess I

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Speaker 3: could be researched. Yeah, surely somebody's done a think piece

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Speaker 3: on it, and we can springboard off of you know,

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Speaker 3: I think piece. That's right, that's what we do most

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Speaker 3: of our research. I think piece.

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Speaker 1: This is from one of our great writers, Julia Layton,

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Speaker 1: and she put this a lot of this stuff together

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Speaker 1: for us.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, she did a good job on this.

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Speaker 4: So like the additional histories you found.

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Speaker 3: Out though, Yeah, because this this so we we'll define

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Speaker 3: it first and then we'll talk about some histories. But

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Speaker 3: this stuff goes back way further than you would think.

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Speaker 3: But what we're talking about today is called conversion therapy,

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Speaker 3: reparative therapy ex gay therapy, where.

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Speaker 4: Reporative therapy is trademarked by the way we should.

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Speaker 3: Say, Well, you couldn't hear it, but under my breath,

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Speaker 3: I said, yeah, more like ts it was. Yeah, it

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Speaker 3: was trademarked by a psychologist named Joseph Nicolosi, Yes, senior.

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Speaker 3: So what conversion therapy is probably what we're gonna mostly

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Speaker 3: call it though, what it's what it is is it's

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Speaker 3: an alleged psychological theory and practice that is based on

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Speaker 3: the idea that all people are born heterosexual, and because

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Speaker 3: of certain.

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Speaker 4: Certain events past traumas usually.

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Speaker 3: Traumas typically, but also the family dynamics play a huge role,

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Speaker 3: people who would otherwise are meant to be heterosexual can

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Speaker 3: be accidentally steered into homosexuality.

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Speaker 1: And therefore can be or purposefully steered back cured, yes,

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Speaker 1: cured being gay, right back to the righteous land of heterosexuality.

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Speaker 3: And as you can imagine that this is a very

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Speaker 3: popular with the fundamentalist Christian right. Sure, And I mean

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Speaker 3: like that's not even like a guess like it overtly is.

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Speaker 3: They've adopted and taken on X gay, the X gay movement,

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Speaker 3: as as basically one of the what's it called an

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Speaker 3: a tempole temp post, Sure, one of the planks in

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Speaker 3: there in the Christian Rights Platform for Social Change.

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Speaker 1: Oh, it is an if It was officially part of

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Speaker 1: the twenty sixteen Republican Party platform.

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Speaker 4: Even what that's right?

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Speaker 1: Well, wait, the whole RNC yeah, which has been called

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Speaker 1: the twenty sixteen platform, has been called by far the

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Speaker 1: most anti LGTBQ platform in the nation's history.

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Speaker 3: Wow, I mean yeah, If that's a plank in the

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Speaker 3: party's platform, that's pretty significant. Like they don't throw just

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Speaker 3: anything in there, No, they don't. So with the with

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Speaker 3: with the X gay movement and conversion therapy, I saw

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Speaker 3: it described at least back in the late nineties as

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Speaker 3: a front in the culture war that's as strong and

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Speaker 3: as significant as abortion. Like the the the Christian right

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Speaker 3: in particular is has basically dedicated itself to stamping out

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Speaker 3: gayness and by converting gay people to straightness. The problem

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Speaker 3: is is there is no scientific evidence whatsoever that that

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Speaker 3: is even possible.

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Speaker 1: Right, And the problem is when you try and stamp

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Speaker 1: out gayness, that creates a good beat that you can

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Speaker 1: dance to.

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Speaker 3: It makes that sound, and they're like no, no, no, no, no,

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Speaker 3: stop stamping exactly.

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Speaker 4: I had actually I went to well, should I say this?

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Speaker 4: I don't sure? Why not?

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Speaker 1: Because this is the truth. I went to a church

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Speaker 1: camp once when I was a youth.

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Speaker 3: Well, I figured a story or two like.

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Speaker 2: That.

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Speaker 1: They talked about stomping your feet to the music or

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Speaker 1: whatever they're playing, and they literally said, don't alternate feet

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Speaker 1: because that's too close to dancing.

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Speaker 3: Wow.

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Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, And these weren't, like, I mean, these were

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Speaker 1: pretty mainstream Baptist church camps.

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Speaker 4: It wasn't like I went to.

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Speaker 3: Some snake handling thing.

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Speaker 4: No, not at all.

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Speaker 3: But I had a really good episode on that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that was a good one. So anyway, stomp your feet, everybody,

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Speaker 1: just don't altern.

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Speaker 3: So you stomp them both at once, because that's.

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Speaker 4: Not just stomp one foot just on your right foot.

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Speaker 3: I was gonna say, that's just jumping lightly. Okay. So

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Speaker 3: that's what we're talking about is conversion therapy. And like

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Speaker 3: I said, it became part of the Christian rights kind

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Speaker 3: of philosophy and part of their culture war, their culture

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Speaker 3: war they're fighting. But it goes back way further than

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Speaker 3: that then. I think it was the late nineties when

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Speaker 3: the right kind of adopted it. As a matter of fact,

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Speaker 3: like into the nineteenth century, there were people who subscribed

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Speaker 3: to this, but they were all psychologists. This is back

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Speaker 3: at the time when you could be a ghost investigator

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Speaker 3: and say I'm a psychologist. This is the times when

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Speaker 3: you could say, you know, this cigar reminds you of

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Speaker 3: your mother, you know what I'm saying, right, and you

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Speaker 3: could be a psychologist. You could be a father of

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Speaker 3: psychology at that point.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you dug up a great article from history dot

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Speaker 1: com called Gay Conversion Therapy is Disturbing nineteenth Century Origins

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Speaker 1: by Aaron Blakemore and Mary Nice.

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Speaker 3: Attribution check.

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Speaker 1: Uh, yeah, Well, Aaron wrote a great article and in

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Speaker 1: it she talks about in eighteen ninety nine this hypnosis. Well,

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Speaker 1: again in the days where you could be a hypnotist

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Speaker 1: and be a legitimate scientist at the same time, get.

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Speaker 3: In a stage shows, or's psychology.

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Speaker 4: That's right, maybe where's the money?

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Speaker 1: But he was German, of course, and he claimed to

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Speaker 1: have turned a gay man straight after forty five hypnosis

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Speaker 1: sessions and some other therapies. And that's sort of the

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Speaker 1: first evidence of what we would later call conversion therapy

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Speaker 1: starting up. Yeah, although I'm sure even before that people

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Speaker 1: they probably didn't call it conversion therapy. But if you

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Speaker 1: were an effeminate man, you were no doubt probably beaten

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Speaker 1: by your parents and shunned by your community.

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Speaker 3: Right, I think one of the other things. It's kind

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Speaker 3: of a hallmark of this long tradition of converting people

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Speaker 3: from being gay to straight or trying to. Is this

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Speaker 3: idea that there's something wrong with you if you're gay,

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Speaker 3: and that that idea can actually become hung up on

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Speaker 3: the individual, the gay person, so that they actually do

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Speaker 3: seek out help in becoming straight. But the problem is

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Speaker 3: in seeking that help, they're going to be frustrated, and

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Speaker 3: they're ultimately probably going to be They're going to have

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Speaker 3: feelings of shame, guilt, inadequacy that they're not capable of

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Speaker 3: helping themselves. There's something wrong with them. Why can't they

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Speaker 3: just be straight? Kind of thing. And then if you're

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Speaker 3: a minor and your parents are forcing this on you,

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Speaker 3: then that raises it a whole other can of worms

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Speaker 3: of ethical dilemmas. Sure, but even from the outset there

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Speaker 3: were probably people who sought out hypnotists and other psychologists

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Speaker 3: for help. It wasn't just people walking around kidnapping gay

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Speaker 3: people and taking them off the street and trying to.

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Speaker 1: Convert them, right, It could have very well been some

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Speaker 1: man that's like, wait a minute, I don't feel normal

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Speaker 1: feelings because I'm looking at Joe out there in the

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Speaker 1: field and things are happening, right, if you know what

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Speaker 1: I mean, Doc, And they're like, well, come on.

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Speaker 3: In watching him swing that scythe and take his sweaty

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Speaker 3: shirt off, wring it over his face, that kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: Right, So just sit down and follow the wristwatch with

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Speaker 1: your eyesight or I guess the pocket watch.

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Speaker 4: That'd be a weird U technique move when moving. But

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Speaker 4: from that same history dot Com article there.

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Speaker 1: She she talks about some of the early attempts, like

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Speaker 1: with electro convulsive therapy. Yeah, lobotomies. I think we even

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Speaker 1: talked about some of the lobotomy's episode.

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Speaker 3: And may we give you a lobotomy for anything?

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Speaker 4: Oh? Sure?

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Speaker 3: What about testicular transplantation?

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Speaker 1: Right, because that was a theory from a doctor, an

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Speaker 1: intercrinologist name Eugene Steinach, who thought that your testicles were

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Speaker 1: the root of the problem.

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Speaker 3: Well a lot of people did.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: There was like you.

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Speaker 1: Could have gay testicles literally and they would swap them

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Speaker 1: out for straight ones.

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Speaker 3: Right, And there's no I could not find any evidence

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Speaker 3: one way or the other that any of these testicular

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Speaker 3: transplants worked or were successful. I don't think they were,

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Speaker 3: but I didn't see anything that said like all of

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Speaker 3: those failed or whatever, but like what happened? They just

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Speaker 3: shrivel up and fall off or something.

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Speaker 1: So do you mean if it actually like medically took

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Speaker 1: to the body or yeah, yeah, that's.

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Speaker 3: What I mean.

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Speaker 4: Okay, saying like did it convert them? Did it work?

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Speaker 3: Right? Yeah?

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Speaker 4: No, Yeah that's the answer.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, I didn't know that you could in the

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Speaker 1: nineteen twenties held a testical transplant successfully.

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Speaker 3: That's what I'm saying, Like, I surely I mean at

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Speaker 3: some point, and we must have talked about this in

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Speaker 3: the Michael Daylan episode. We talked about that. I don't

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Speaker 3: think it was but it wasn't a transplant. It was

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Speaker 3: just a straight up removal an archaeactomy I believe castration. So,

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Speaker 3: but at some point testicles have been transplanted onto a

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Speaker 3: person successfully. When did that happen? Is my question.

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Speaker 4: It probably did to a dog first.

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Speaker 3: Right, But I mean think about it, like if it

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Speaker 3: didn't work, well, sorry you're castrated now.

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Speaker 4: Yeah they probably didn't say sorry though, no.

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Speaker 3: But we took your gay testicles. The heterosexual testicles just

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Speaker 3: didn't pan out, right, But now you don't have any

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Speaker 3: testicles gay or otherwise.

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Speaker 4: That's right.

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Speaker 1: Some of the other awful techniques that they would use

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Speaker 1: back in the day were chemicals that they might have

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Speaker 1: to make you wretch and vomit when you look at,

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Speaker 1: you know, pictures of people of the same sex.

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Speaker 3: That's called covert sensitization.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, or if you're cross dressing maybe same thing, sure,

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Speaker 1: or look in a mirror and be disgusted with yourself

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Speaker 1: and wretch and vomit.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and very sadly, if you have, say like as

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Speaker 3: someone you were in a relationship with that you love,

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Speaker 3: they might show you a picture of that person and

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Speaker 3: carry out aversive therapy or aversive conditioning. What's weird, As

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Speaker 3: you said, these are these are things they used to

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Speaker 3: carry out. From what I've seen, this stuff still goes

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Speaker 3: on today, Yeah, some of it. So what we're talking

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Speaker 3: about though, back in the nineteenth and most of the

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Speaker 3: first half or so of the twentieth century, this was

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Speaker 3: all like the domain of psychology, and then eventually gay

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Speaker 3: psychologists and other straight psychologists too. We're basically like, this

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Speaker 3: is wrong, yea, Like the science is not adding up,

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Speaker 3: this is just this is just incorrect.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. There were medical doctors too, though, wasn't just psychologists.

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Speaker 3: Right, sure?

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So eventually, in nineteen seventy three, the American Psychological Association said, hey,

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Speaker 3: big news, We're no longer going to classify homosexuality as

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Speaker 3: a mental disorder.

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Speaker 1: Right, And a certain part of the population went, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's nineteen seventy two.

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Speaker 4: Why did it take this long?

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Speaker 3: Right? Exactly? Yeah, But that was a big deal, and

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Speaker 3: at that point a psychology mostly abandoned and the idea

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Speaker 3: that being gay was a disorder of any kind, and

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Speaker 3: therefore there was no point in researching how to cure

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Speaker 3: someone of being gay, and so it turned its back

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Speaker 3: on this whole history of conversion conversion. Yeah, but it

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Speaker 3: didn't fully die away, and I believe starting in like

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Speaker 3: the eighties, the Christian rights started to kind of pick

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Speaker 3: up on it and kind of breathe new life into

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Speaker 3: it again.

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Speaker 1: That's right, I think we should take a break. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's a robust and a half setup.

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Speaker 3: Is that? Oh? I thought we were already into it.

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Speaker 3: Oh my gosh.

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Speaker 4: It wasn't just a setup. It was more you're right,

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Speaker 4: we'll be right.

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Speaker 5: Back, Josh shock.

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Speaker 1: All right, So let's talk a little bit about because

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Speaker 1: there's a couple of a couple of schools of thought here,

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Speaker 1: and I hesitate to one to call the one more bonafide.

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Speaker 1: But you know, there's conversion therapy that can happen at

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Speaker 1: a licensed therapist office. And there's conversion therapy that can

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Speaker 1: happen in you know, somebody's basement or the basement of

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Speaker 1: a church.

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Speaker 3: I was gonna sae basement too, Yeah, or a room.

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Speaker 4: Didn't have to be a.

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Speaker 3: Basement, I know, but a basement makes it seem sure,

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Speaker 3: that's probably sinister.

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Speaker 1: That's probably why I said it. So there are two

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Speaker 1: sort of ways is that that can happen. We're gonna

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Speaker 1: talk a little bit about the first way, the patented

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Speaker 1: way repaired to therapy trademark by Joseph Nicolosi.

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Speaker 3: That guy doesn't even get the Italian accent, man, and

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Speaker 3: I don't believe he.

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Speaker 1: Doesn't, which we should say, by the way, in July

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Speaker 1: this year, Amazon stopped carrying his works on their website.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, because they they considered them that they promoted fraud,

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Speaker 3: that's right, which we'll get to.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, which is interesting.

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Speaker 3: But this guy is like a psychologist. Yeah, he's a

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Speaker 3: trained psychologist who basically said I'm going to take everything

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Speaker 3: I learned and direct it toward curing gay people of

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Speaker 3: being gay.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know much about do you know much

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Speaker 1: about his religiosity?

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Speaker 3: Or I think he was Jewish? Okay, I'm born in Brooklyn.

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Speaker 3: From what I understand, I read a really really great

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Speaker 3: article not a think piece, but a memoir in the

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Speaker 3: American Prospect from American Prospector from twenty twelve. Yah, it's

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Speaker 3: different Their Gold by Gabriel Arana. Okay, it's called my

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Speaker 3: so called ex gay Life. It's definitely worth reading. But

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Speaker 3: it's a great look at conversion therapy, but also is

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Speaker 3: like overlaid with his personal experience with it. Okay.

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Speaker 1: At any rate, his contention was that, like we said,

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Speaker 1: you develop homosexuality or homosexual feelings at least because of

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Speaker 1: a result of environmental conditions, childhood traumas, and they call

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Speaker 1: it same sex attraction SSSA, and that could stem, in

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Speaker 1: his opinion, from a few different things desire for adventure,

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Speaker 1: peer acceptance, loneliness or boredemer curiosity, approval or affection from males.

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Speaker 1: And a lot of this is centered on men, although

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Speaker 1: it's certainly women have been involved in.

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Speaker 4: This as well.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we'll get to that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, But a lot of them. A lot of this

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Speaker 1: over the years is making gay men straight.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I see what you mean.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, but it's not exclusive to that.

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Speaker 1: No, it's not general rebellion, which is pretty funny. And

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Speaker 1: then sexual molestation by another male.

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Speaker 3: And I think that is a very like I think

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Speaker 3: that the idea that that leads to being gay is

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Speaker 3: very widespread in culture, well beyond the Christian rioter people

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Speaker 3: who believe in conversion therapy, the idea that if you're

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Speaker 3: sexually abused by a man or somebody of your same sex,

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Speaker 3: become Gayah, which is just wrong, but I think a

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Speaker 3: lot of people still believe that. I know, that's what

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Speaker 3: I thought when I was a kid.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's right. I mean it's not right.

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Speaker 3: No, it's utterly wrong. But yeah.

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Speaker 1: And the whole basis of Nickelosi's theory he takes back

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Speaker 1: to a study from nineteen ninety two called Demography of

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Speaker 1: Sexual Orientation and Adolescence. And this was an actual study

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Speaker 1: from the Journal Pediatrics that looked at patterns of sexual

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Speaker 1: orientation and high school students in Minnesota, And what they

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Speaker 1: found out was that younger teens in Minnesota in this

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Speaker 1: study were more likely to express sexual confusion about their

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Speaker 1: orientation when they were younger, and as they grew older,

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Speaker 1: they were less confused about their sexual identity and orientation. Right.

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Speaker 3: It's a legit study, and I think that probably anyone

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Speaker 3: who's ever been an early teenager and a late teenager

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Speaker 3: can be like that sounds about right exactly, you know.

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Speaker 1: But the extrapolation that Nicolosi did was what's the problem

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Speaker 1: as right.

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Speaker 3: So Nicolosi was saying, like, yes, that shows that like

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Speaker 3: you're you're you're in a dangerous place earlier on, and

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Speaker 3: that if a couple of things happen in a certain way,

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Speaker 3: you can be veered off of this natural path toward

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Speaker 3: heterosexuality into homosexuality.

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Speaker 1: Right, and also more dangerously that means we got to

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Speaker 1: get them while they're young.

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Speaker 3: Right. So one of the other things that he's he

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Speaker 3: really based his practice on was this family triad of

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Speaker 3: a domineering, over attendant mother, a passive, detached father, and

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Speaker 3: a sensitive child books in kind of in that was

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Speaker 3: a good one in that that triangle like you would

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Speaker 3: like almost certainly have a gay kid if somebody didn't intervene.

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Speaker 3: So he decided like this was his career was intervening

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Speaker 3: in that kind of stuff, but that in and of

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Speaker 3: itself has never been proven to create gay kids. That like,

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Speaker 3: whether you believe in conversion therapy or not, if you

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Speaker 3: have a domineering mother and have some father and you're

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Speaker 3: like a sensitive type who likes dolls, even doesn't mean

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Speaker 3: you're going to turn gay. This is the basis of

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Speaker 3: that though, is that yes, you will turn gay. And

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Speaker 3: still to this day this idea is allowed to live

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Speaker 3: because science is never fully satisfied the question like are

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Speaker 3: we born gay? Do we develop being gay? And it

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Speaker 3: looks like it's on a pretty strong track toward a

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Speaker 3: genetic basis of homosexuality, but it's still nothing's definitive, and

383
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Speaker 3: so people can say, well, maybe we do develop, you know,

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Speaker 3: an adolescence, you know, being gay or whatever, because science

385
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Speaker 3: is not filled this void cor yet.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

387
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Speaker 1: And the way Nicolosi will would write about this stuff

388
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Speaker 1: and describe it as in a very sort of professional,

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Speaker 1: innocuous type way where a casual reader might say, well,

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Speaker 1: this seems totally valid and above board.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, a Newsweek reader, yeah, or an OPRAH viewer.

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Speaker 4: That's right. This is one of the things.

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Speaker 1: I think This is from one of his books and

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Speaker 1: This is how he describes a relationship to from patient

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Speaker 1: to therapists. The client has come to the therapist seeking

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Speaker 1: assistance to reduce something distressing to him, and the RT

397
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Speaker 1: psychotherapist agrees to share his professional experience in education to

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Speaker 1: help the client meet his own goal. His own goal,

399
00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:45,080
Speaker 1: the therapist enters into a collaborative relationship, agreeing to work

400
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Speaker 1: with the client to reduce his unwanted attractions and explore

401
00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:53,320
Speaker 1: his heterosexual potential, which again, it seems very innocuous, And

402
00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:56,000
Speaker 1: there are plenty of cases where a grown man of

403
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Speaker 1: his or woman of their own.

404
00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:01,359
Speaker 4: Volition goes and seeks this out right.

405
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Speaker 1: But what they don't say is what happens many times

406
00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:07,960
Speaker 1: is a parent forces their young child to do this.

407
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Speaker 3: That's a big one. Yeah, it's a big one. In

408
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Speaker 3: this that American Prospect magazine, the author was like in

409
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Speaker 3: his early teens when he went to Nickelosi's therapy. But

410
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Speaker 3: he said, everybody else in the group is in their

411
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Speaker 3: like forties or fifties, So it's definitely both. Yeah. Yeah,

412
00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:28,120
Speaker 3: But there's something here that's really important because, like you said,

413
00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:30,959
Speaker 3: if you just read this stuff, it does sound innocuous.

414
00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:34,080
Speaker 3: It's all very much based on things like cognitive behavioral

415
00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:37,520
Speaker 3: therapy like stuff that works, which means that this works

416
00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:40,680
Speaker 3: in a weird, twisted way, which we'll talk about, but

417
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:43,880
Speaker 3: not in the way it's ultimately meant to. It works

418
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Speaker 3: in a bent way.

419
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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, do you.

420
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Speaker 3: Want me to explain now? I feel like I should.

421
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Speaker 4: I take issue with the word works at all.

422
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Speaker 1: There are situations where it might prevent someone from acting

423
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Speaker 1: on a homosexual impulse, That's what I mean. Yeah, but

424
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Speaker 1: that does change the nature of their sexuality.

425
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Speaker 3: No, no, right, And ultimately preventing someone or training someone

426
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Speaker 3: to not act on their sexuality is damaging in and

427
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Speaker 3: of itself and causes all sorts of other problems.

428
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Speaker 1: But maybe good enough for a really religious family, right

429
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Speaker 1: you know.

430
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Speaker 3: Yeah, Well that's what I read is that over time,

431
00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:25,240
Speaker 3: as the Christian right adopted the idea of you know,

432
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Speaker 3: championing the ex gay movement, that part of that was

433
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Speaker 3: accepting gay people who refrain from gay sex. So if

434
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Speaker 3: you were like, I'm gay, I'm never going to be straight.

435
00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:39,800
Speaker 3: I tried, but I don't have sex with men, but

436
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Speaker 3: I won't come in with and welcome in church. Yeah.

437
00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:46,120
Speaker 3: So what I was saying, though, is with with Nicolosi's thing,

438
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Speaker 3: there's something fundamentally wrong with it, and that if somebody

439
00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:53,440
Speaker 3: came to you and said, I'm tired of being white

440
00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:59,359
Speaker 3: or black or hispanic. I can't stand it. You wouldn't say, oh, well,

441
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:01,679
Speaker 3: let's figure out how to make you not black or

442
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:04,720
Speaker 3: white or hispanic or straight. Let's figure out how to

443
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:08,640
Speaker 3: change you. They would say. Any therapist worth their salt

444
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:11,240
Speaker 3: would say, well, no, there's a lot of great things

445
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:14,000
Speaker 3: about being white or black, or hispanic or straight, and

446
00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:16,879
Speaker 3: let's focus on that so that you can own your identity.

447
00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:21,320
Speaker 3: The conversion therapy does the opposite, says, yes, let's figure

448
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:24,080
Speaker 3: out how to get the gay out of you. Let's

449
00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:28,280
Speaker 3: change your identity because this group of society has said

450
00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:32,320
Speaker 3: that it's unacceptable. That's right, and that is an extraordinarily

451
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,119
Speaker 3: damaging position to come from. And that is the basis

452
00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:36,720
Speaker 3: of conversion therapy.

453
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:39,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, and as we'll see later on, the AMA's official

454
00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:42,320
Speaker 1: stance is that it is and we'll read the quote

455
00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:46,960
Speaker 1: later that it is a damaging prospect right and creates real.

456
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:50,359
Speaker 3: Harm an American Prospector magazine.

457
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:56,040
Speaker 1: So this approach by Nicolosi has four steps to it.

458
00:24:56,600 --> 00:25:00,119
Speaker 1: The first one is interesting because it's the disclosure of

459
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:05,000
Speaker 1: the therapist's personal, professional, philosophical, and religious views on homosexuality,

460
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:11,560
Speaker 1: which includes Nicolosi says, the gay affirmative therapist also discloses

461
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:15,240
Speaker 1: his philosophical views to the client. But from a gay

462
00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:18,639
Speaker 1: affirmative perspective, does he just put that in there to

463
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:21,600
Speaker 1: like cover his baces. No, it's true though, because you

464
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:26,359
Speaker 1: wouldn't send your son or daughter to a gay affirmative

465
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:28,919
Speaker 1: therapist to convert.

466
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:32,760
Speaker 3: Them into right. You know, I think this is what

467
00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:35,159
Speaker 3: he's saying. You've been to therapy before, right, sure? Have

468
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:38,159
Speaker 3: you ever noticed that when you first your first session,

469
00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:40,240
Speaker 3: the therapist tells you a lot about themselves and what

470
00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:42,639
Speaker 3: they think about mental health or life or whatever.

471
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:44,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I'm always like, wait a minute, what about

472
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:44,640
Speaker 4: my projects?

473
00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:47,159
Speaker 3: I sat we were talking about may I'm get in

474
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:51,359
Speaker 3: charge for this. I don't care about your family, right,

475
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:55,439
Speaker 3: That's what he's saying that they do. But because this

476
00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:58,920
Speaker 3: is about being gay, that's what they're going to talk about,

477
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:01,960
Speaker 3: is their views or whatever. Interesting They're going to share

478
00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:04,440
Speaker 3: their opinions of it, and that they think that there's

479
00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:05,400
Speaker 3: problems with it.

480
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:07,160
Speaker 1: You know what my line is at the therapist when

481
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:09,600
Speaker 1: they do all that stuff like great, that's really interesting.

482
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:11,600
Speaker 1: At the end, I'm like, you want to start the clock.

483
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:16,760
Speaker 3: Now, right? Nice? Either that or I can pro rite.

484
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:21,320
Speaker 1: Number two of the four steps is encouragement of the

485
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:28,160
Speaker 1: client's inquiry, so basically asking the client the questions examining

486
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:35,000
Speaker 1: their feelings to try and discover what lies beneath. Number three,

487
00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:38,680
Speaker 1: resolution of past trauma if it is, in fact one

488
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:43,440
Speaker 1: of the reasons they suspect this person has gone down

489
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:49,920
Speaker 1: the road to homosexuality, and then education regarding features of homosexuality,

490
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:53,800
Speaker 1: which includes everything from what motivates you to do this

491
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:58,359
Speaker 1: to you know that if you are gay, then this

492
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:00,840
Speaker 1: lifestyle ends in a very very bad way.

493
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:03,359
Speaker 3: For you, right that There's a lot of physical harm,

494
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 3: social harm.

495
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:05,160
Speaker 4: Emotional harm.

496
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,720
Speaker 3: Yeah right. So what's weird though, is like, I can't

497
00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:12,240
Speaker 3: Nicolosi is like a tough person to paint with just

498
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:15,919
Speaker 3: one brush. Even though I totally disagree with what he

499
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:20,480
Speaker 3: dedicated dedicated his career to, he doesn't seem, at least

500
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:24,240
Speaker 3: from what I've read, including that American Prospect article from

501
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:27,040
Speaker 3: somebody who was a patient of his for years, he

502
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:29,399
Speaker 3: doesn't seem to have been like any sort of evil

503
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:33,359
Speaker 3: man or anything like that. I don't know if he

504
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:35,479
Speaker 3: just thought like this was a real thing and he

505
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:38,120
Speaker 3: was really helping me or what. But for example, there's

506
00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 3: this one quote from Gabriel Ariana who said that he

507
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:47,440
Speaker 3: had been like experimenting with sexual encounters with other men

508
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:50,680
Speaker 3: as a teenager. And he said that he'd been meeting

509
00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:53,679
Speaker 3: men off of the internet, and he told Nicolosi like,

510
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:55,560
Speaker 3: he's like, I trusted the guy enough to share this

511
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:58,960
Speaker 3: in therapy, and he said that Nicolosi told he said,

512
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:02,040
Speaker 3: he told me to be careful meeting men off the internet,

513
00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:04,120
Speaker 3: but that I shouldn't dwell on it or feel guilty.

514
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:07,239
Speaker 3: He said, my sexual behavior was of secondary importance. If

515
00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:09,960
Speaker 3: I understood myself and worked on my relationships with men,

516
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:12,360
Speaker 3: the attractions would take care of themselves. I just had

517
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:15,040
Speaker 3: to be patient, Which is I mean, that's a pretty

518
00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:18,440
Speaker 3: great thing for a therapist to tell a patient, right,

519
00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:21,119
Speaker 3: don't dwell on it, you know, don't feel guilty, just

520
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:22,960
Speaker 3: you know, except it, move on and learn from it

521
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:23,480
Speaker 3: or whatever.

522
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:26,440
Speaker 4: But then the second part, right, that's where it goes downhill.

523
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:29,480
Speaker 3: Yes, And so the thing is, though with conversion therapy,

524
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:35,160
Speaker 3: in most cases, Nicolosi is like he's almost a shining

525
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:38,320
Speaker 3: example in a weird way, whereas other people associated with

526
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:40,720
Speaker 3: it are. It's very easy to paint them with just

527
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:43,560
Speaker 3: one brush. Yeah, you know, so we.

528
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:46,840
Speaker 1: Should talk a little bit about the argument against, a

529
00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:49,640
Speaker 1: little bit more about the argument against, which includes a

530
00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:52,280
Speaker 1: little bit more history. You know, we talked about the

531
00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:55,800
Speaker 1: earliest stages of conversion therapy in the late eighteen hundreds,

532
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,080
Speaker 1: but it really kind of picked up steam in the

533
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:04,320
Speaker 1: United States and the nighteen sixties when the Civil Rights movement,

534
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:06,200
Speaker 1: you know, when gay people started coming out of the

535
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:10,959
Speaker 1: closet more, presenting themselves more in public, gay bars, popping up,

536
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:11,680
Speaker 1: things like.

537
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 4: That Stonewall Stonewall, of course.

538
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:18,160
Speaker 1: Which you know, anytime something like that is becoming a

539
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 1: little more accepted in the mainstream, there's going to be

540
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:24,160
Speaker 1: another side that really roots down and digs in. And

541
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:27,160
Speaker 1: that's sort of how the modern gay conversion therapy movement

542
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 1: was born, was out of homosexuality becoming more accepted.

543
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 3: Yeah. I read a really interesting journal article from two

544
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:39,040
Speaker 3: thousand and seven by Robinson and Spivey. It was in

545
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:46,320
Speaker 3: Gender and Society, the journal, and they basically they looked

546
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:50,719
Speaker 3: into the X gay movement, not necessarily the psychology community's

547
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:53,360
Speaker 3: basis of it, but the later on the adoption of

548
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:56,240
Speaker 3: it by the Christian right. And they explained why the

549
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,440
Speaker 3: Christian right would be interested in that, And they were

550
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:02,960
Speaker 3: interested in and dug in, like you said, because they

551
00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:08,320
Speaker 3: saw homosexuality and feminism in particular as signs of a

552
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:12,960
Speaker 3: decadent society that would eventually cause us to crumble and collapse.

553
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:17,320
Speaker 3: And that the the And this is according to Robinson

554
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:19,600
Speaker 3: and Spy I haven't actually interviewed any one on the

555
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:22,680
Speaker 3: Christian right who believes this, but they are academics and

556
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 3: this was a peer review journal that the that masculinity

557
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:31,720
Speaker 3: is the antidote to that, it's the antidote to homosexuality,

558
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:34,480
Speaker 3: it's the antidote to feminism, and that it was up

559
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:37,880
Speaker 3: to each man to be a strong leader among women

560
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:40,960
Speaker 3: and children and to be as masculine as possible. That's

561
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 3: how you how you did that?

562
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:44,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I went.

563
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:48,320
Speaker 1: I heard sermons every Sunday, well not every Sunday, but

564
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:51,880
Speaker 1: I heard sermons on many Sundays where they were still

565
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:55,200
Speaker 1: saying why to submit to your husband's Yeah, straight out

566
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 1: of the Bible, you know.

567
00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, And like most of the antidote is dad's you're

568
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:04,560
Speaker 3: being way too passive. You need to step up and

569
00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:07,240
Speaker 3: be the leader of your family. But also, moms, you

570
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 3: can help by saying, oh, you have a question, ask

571
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 3: your father. I defer to your father. Go ask your father, right,

572
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 3: and just yeah, being passive.

573
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 1: Well, which goes back to that triad you mentioned earlier

574
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 1: about the domineering mother.

575
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:21,120
Speaker 4: The passive father equals gape.

576
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:23,240
Speaker 3: That's basically the basis of the whole thing. From what

577
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:26,640
Speaker 3: I could tell is that at least among the Christian right,

578
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:34,440
Speaker 3: that if the father is not the dominant, in leading

579
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:37,480
Speaker 3: figure in the family, that's where the trouble comes from,

580
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:40,360
Speaker 3: and that can produce homosexual children. Interesting.

581
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 4: Yes, So.

582
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 1: Something we failed to mention as part of the AMA's

583
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 1: change in nineteen seventy two, or was that.

584
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:55,680
Speaker 3: The apa apa was?

585
00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:59,000
Speaker 1: They said, and this is an important distinction, is that

586
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:04,240
Speaker 1: homosexual they deemed a normal variation, not deviation, but a

587
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:09,720
Speaker 1: variation in human sexual orientation, and like other normal sexual orientations,

588
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:12,960
Speaker 1: can't be changed. In other words, you can't make a

589
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:15,080
Speaker 1: straight person gay anymore than you can make a gay

590
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:17,520
Speaker 1: person straight, is what that equals.

591
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:19,600
Speaker 3: And because of that is we'll see later on. That

592
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:23,840
Speaker 3: became the basis for this idea that conversion therapy is

593
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:27,840
Speaker 3: in essence of fraud, right, because it purports to do

594
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 3: something that can't be done.

595
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:32,240
Speaker 4: That's right. Should we take another break?

596
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:35,800
Speaker 3: Oh? Man, really, they're coming hard and fast like men

597
00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 3: swinging sides in sweaty shirts on the field.

598
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:41,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's take another break and we'll talk about what

599
00:32:41,600 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 1: might happen in conversion therapy right after this shot.

600
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:11,840
Speaker 3: Shot. All right, Chuck, I'm excited about this part.

601
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 4: You're excited about the horror show of conversion therapy.

602
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:17,880
Speaker 3: It's not all horror show. Some of it is just

603
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:19,800
Speaker 3: outright laughable. Yeah.

604
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:23,000
Speaker 4: So statistically also.

605
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:26,200
Speaker 3: Also, I'm sorry everybody, I want to say something too. Okay,

606
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:30,800
Speaker 3: we typically try to be super objective. This one is

607
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 3: very tough.

608
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 4: We have science on our side too.

609
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:36,520
Speaker 3: This was really hard for me to research. Yeah, nothing

610
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:38,720
Speaker 3: is ever hard for me to research. This one was.

611
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:41,480
Speaker 3: It was like turning over a log and finding it

612
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:45,160
Speaker 3: like Maggot's writhing underneath. That was what researching this one was. Like.

613
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:47,720
Speaker 3: I just kept putting it off. I just keep leaving

614
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:49,840
Speaker 3: it and just going and watching like the Office or

615
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:53,040
Speaker 3: something like that. Just anything but researching this because it's

616
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:53,800
Speaker 3: super sad.

617
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:57,440
Speaker 1: It is it's that that children are taking at their

618
00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:00,920
Speaker 1: most vulnerable time and adolescence, when they don't know what's

619
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 1: going on, and they're told that they're wrong and they're

620
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:05,920
Speaker 1: sinning and they're dirty.

621
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:09,919
Speaker 3: That is a part of why it's sad. Another part

622
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:13,360
Speaker 3: to me of why it's sad is that the idea

623
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:18,920
Speaker 3: that grown ups would direct this much thought and attention

624
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:23,960
Speaker 3: and effort into slamming their head up against a wall

625
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:26,879
Speaker 3: to try to change someone else to a way they

626
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:31,600
Speaker 3: think they should be. That I think is that's at

627
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:34,439
Speaker 3: least as sad to me as the new children being

628
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:36,680
Speaker 3: misdirected like this, because a kid can go on and

629
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:39,840
Speaker 3: grow up and be like, geez, my family was super

630
00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:42,080
Speaker 3: messed up. I'm really glad I don't speak to them

631
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:44,239
Speaker 3: anymore because I'm much happier over here. Right.

632
00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:48,160
Speaker 4: Well, that can happen in the ideal circumstance.

633
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:50,640
Speaker 3: Sure, or the ideal circumstances that the family's just like, hey,

634
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:54,279
Speaker 3: we're really screwed up, We're really sorry, we love you

635
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:57,000
Speaker 3: no matter who you are. But the idea that there's

636
00:34:57,040 --> 00:35:02,840
Speaker 3: a group, a social movement dedicated to just eradicating another

637
00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:06,879
Speaker 3: group of people. Yeah that I find that very hard

638
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:07,400
Speaker 3: to swallow.

639
00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:08,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, agreed.

640
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:14,000
Speaker 1: So apparently, statistically about or close to seven hundred thousand

641
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 1: people in the United States have undergone conversion therapy, and

642
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:22,040
Speaker 1: we should mention that it's a real problem in places

643
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:24,240
Speaker 1: like Africa and Asia and South America.

644
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:27,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, where you can still be imprisoned for being gay. Yeah,

645
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:29,680
Speaker 3: like Uganda is a big place for that.

646
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:32,560
Speaker 1: Conversion therapy is like on the rise in those places

647
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:35,359
Speaker 1: and other places. But we're talking about the United States

648
00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:39,680
Speaker 1: in this case, seven hundred thousand people. And like we said,

649
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:43,719
Speaker 1: sometimes it is in the with a licensed therapist. Sometimes

650
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:49,960
Speaker 1: it's done by a religious advisor in a basement or

651
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:50,640
Speaker 1: at a church.

652
00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:53,080
Speaker 3: You know what that reminded me of is another thing

653
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:56,879
Speaker 3: we need to talk about sometimes exorcisms, like church exorcisms.

654
00:35:57,440 --> 00:35:58,280
Speaker 4: We've done exorcism.

655
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:01,240
Speaker 3: We did like straight up Roman Catholic exercise. Oh okay,

656
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:03,880
Speaker 3: I'm talking like the kind that somebody does in the

657
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:07,200
Speaker 3: basement of their house. Gotcha because they're supposedly an exorcist

658
00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:08,120
Speaker 3: or something like that.

659
00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:12,600
Speaker 1: Sure backdoor exorcism basically a black market.

660
00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:14,600
Speaker 3: You'll see You'll be like, oh man, we should be

661
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:15,360
Speaker 3: talking about.

662
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:17,040
Speaker 4: This all right, Well, I agree already, I trust you.

663
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:17,400
Speaker 3: Okay.

664
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:23,280
Speaker 1: So the AMA says that conversion therapy programs may utilize

665
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:29,000
Speaker 1: harmful psychological techniques. We were talking earlier about aversion therapy

666
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:34,640
Speaker 1: and given chemicals, they can still be given noxious stimulus,

667
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:38,520
Speaker 1: and I didn't see exactly what that entailed or could entail.

668
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:42,600
Speaker 3: There was a guy named Robert Gilbraith Heath who was

669
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:47,760
Speaker 3: the father of implanting electrodes into the brain to deliver shocks,

670
00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:50,080
Speaker 3: and one of the things he directed that toward was

671
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:54,520
Speaker 3: curing gay people. I don't think anyone in their basement

672
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:57,840
Speaker 3: is implanting electrodes or whatever. But there are things like

673
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:04,640
Speaker 3: giving people like na nausea inducing medications as one, right,

674
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:07,920
Speaker 3: showing them pictures that might nauseate them and then figuring

675
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:11,480
Speaker 3: out how to associate that with masturbating the thoughts of

676
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:13,120
Speaker 3: other men or something like that.

677
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:14,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean we should talk about a few of

678
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:16,640
Speaker 1: these specifically. I mean, all you have to do is

679
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:20,680
Speaker 1: look up on a search engine conversion therapy horror stories,

680
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:22,719
Speaker 1: and there are plenty of people out there saying what

681
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:23,439
Speaker 1: happened to them?

682
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:27,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, look up also conversion therapy super happy fun stories,

683
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:32,320
Speaker 3: and you're going to connect with almost nothing Google zero results.

684
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:35,719
Speaker 1: There was one teenager who said that he was forced

685
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:39,800
Speaker 1: to wear a backpack with forty pounds of rocks eighteen

686
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:43,440
Speaker 1: hours a day to just signify the physical burden of

687
00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:48,320
Speaker 1: being gay. One person's family gave them a fake funeral,

688
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:51,879
Speaker 1: closed casket funeral in front of him, where they said

689
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:53,719
Speaker 1: that he died of AIDS and they said their final

690
00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:56,480
Speaker 1: goodbyes because he went down the sinful path.

691
00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:58,640
Speaker 3: Pretending he wasn't there, like that he was dead and

692
00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 3: in the casket, yes, about him in third person, that's right,

693
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:03,520
Speaker 3: his family.

694
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:06,759
Speaker 1: One reported being told to strip naked in front of

695
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:10,520
Speaker 1: a mirror and say disparaging things about themselves.

696
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:12,440
Speaker 3: I just do that normally, though.

697
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:13,399
Speaker 4: Well.

698
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:15,880
Speaker 1: I did read one account where they basically said the

699
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:19,080
Speaker 1: whole idea is to break you down to nothing in

700
00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:21,160
Speaker 1: the worst way possible and then build you back up

701
00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:23,560
Speaker 1: again and the image that they want.

702
00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:26,080
Speaker 3: So I get the impression that that is one route,

703
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:28,680
Speaker 3: but that is not necessarily what you're going to get

704
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:31,239
Speaker 3: at any place you go for conversion therapy. There are

705
00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:32,520
Speaker 3: other ones that say.

706
00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:34,520
Speaker 1: That's the problem is we don't know because so many

707
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:35,680
Speaker 1: people don't talk about it.

708
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:39,680
Speaker 3: Right. There's some that like you would go to that

709
00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:42,120
Speaker 3: say okay, we're not going to abuse you or anything

710
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:45,360
Speaker 3: like that. But the basis of our beliefs in this

711
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:50,719
Speaker 3: is that you you are gay because either you had

712
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:54,799
Speaker 3: an absent father, a domineering mother, some combination of the two.

713
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:58,880
Speaker 3: Or you always like wanted to be like loved and

714
00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:03,120
Speaker 3: you know, popular among your male peers, and you didn't

715
00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:07,600
Speaker 3: get that. So now you are misdirecting this need, this

716
00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:11,839
Speaker 3: unmet need, toward having anonymous gay sex on the dance

717
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:16,960
Speaker 3: floor with some dude in Miami or whatever. So we

718
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:19,960
Speaker 3: need to figure out how to meet that need and

719
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:22,600
Speaker 3: have you hang out with guys who will tell you

720
00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:25,040
Speaker 3: how cool you are and how popular you are, yeah,

721
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:28,600
Speaker 3: like tailgating or something kind of. And while we're at it,

722
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:32,960
Speaker 3: we're going to do that by accenting the masculinity. We're

723
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:34,640
Speaker 3: going to teach you how to be masculine so that

724
00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:36,720
Speaker 3: you can hang out with dudes in the real world

725
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:40,279
Speaker 3: and they will think you're cool. So things like we're

726
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:41,759
Speaker 3: going to teach you how to change the oil in

727
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:44,480
Speaker 3: your car. We're going to teach you to sit without

728
00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:49,000
Speaker 3: crossing your legs. No joke. There was a guy who.

729
00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:51,440
Speaker 4: Can teach you how to man spread on the subway.

730
00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:54,840
Speaker 3: There's a guy who's kind of a prominent thinker. I

731
00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:58,000
Speaker 3: think he was. I saw him as a sexologist, maybe

732
00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:03,879
Speaker 3: a Christian sexologist, garretar van den Ardluig. It's pretty great.

733
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:07,600
Speaker 3: I think I nailed it. He said that homosexual men

734
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:11,520
Speaker 3: need to unlearn avoidance of getting their hands dirty doing

735
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:15,760
Speaker 3: manual work like chopping wood, painting a house using a shovel,

736
00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:16,680
Speaker 3: and that I.

737
00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:18,759
Speaker 4: Say, no, thanks to all three. Chop wood. That's kind

738
00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:19,040
Speaker 4: of fun.

739
00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:22,239
Speaker 3: It is fun, and that not necessarily just here's an act.

740
00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:25,040
Speaker 3: Start chopping wood. You're going to just suddenly become cured.

741
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:28,239
Speaker 3: But that that is part of it. And in this thought,

742
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:31,480
Speaker 3: this tack where they're not abusing you, they're not degrading

743
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:35,320
Speaker 3: you or anything like that. They're teaching you masculinity and manliness.

744
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:39,920
Speaker 3: That the ultimate aim and goal of that is to

745
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:43,560
Speaker 3: go get married and have a kid or kids, right,

746
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:47,600
Speaker 3: And that that is a big part of conversion therapy.

747
00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:51,400
Speaker 3: It was for a very long time, was saying you

748
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:54,479
Speaker 3: might still be gay or whatever, but you're not really gay.

749
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:57,200
Speaker 3: You're now married and you have a kid, and that

750
00:40:57,360 --> 00:40:58,720
Speaker 3: is what you're dedicating yourself.

751
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:03,879
Speaker 4: That's right. You're a wood up in football throwing dude.

752
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:05,160
Speaker 3: With a pencil thin mustache.

753
00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:06,279
Speaker 4: Oh no, no, not that.

754
00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:10,840
Speaker 1: So in nineteen seventy four, we should talk about George Reckers.

755
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:16,520
Speaker 1: He was a psychologist who tested whether or not this

756
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:21,000
Speaker 1: was an effective treatment, and he had a four This

757
00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:24,120
Speaker 1: wasn't his boy, but this was his client was a foreigner.

758
00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:27,080
Speaker 1: I guess client's a weird way to put it. Sure,

759
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:29,680
Speaker 1: this child was forced to go to this person at

760
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:31,040
Speaker 1: four and a half years old, and this is a

761
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:36,560
Speaker 1: boy manifesting quote childhood cross gender identity. And they said

762
00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:40,360
Speaker 1: this is based on the clothes that this boy wears.

763
00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:43,480
Speaker 1: And now, of course looking at this, it was probably

764
00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:45,200
Speaker 1: a transgender.

765
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:46,840
Speaker 3: Child, yeah, or gender fluid.

766
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:47,279
Speaker 4: Yeah.

767
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:49,000
Speaker 1: I mean it's hard to tell because this was nineteen

768
00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:51,080
Speaker 1: seventy four and the way they wrote about it, it's

769
00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:52,200
Speaker 1: hard to kind of piece it together.

770
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:54,719
Speaker 3: Yeah. And it's also like, just how much of this

771
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:58,000
Speaker 3: behavior did this child exhibit? Like it makes it makes

772
00:41:58,040 --> 00:41:59,840
Speaker 3: it seem like this is all the kid did was

773
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:02,279
Speaker 3: act like a girl when he was a boy, Right,

774
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:04,919
Speaker 3: what else was he into? What else? You know, it's

775
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:07,280
Speaker 3: just such a narrow picture of the subject.

776
00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:11,520
Speaker 1: Of course, so in the end, Reckers did something super damaging.

777
00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:15,320
Speaker 1: He trained the boy's mother to be the therapist, Like,

778
00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:17,759
Speaker 1: here's what you need to do, so this kid can

779
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:20,640
Speaker 1: get twenty four to seven therapy from you and basically

780
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:27,480
Speaker 1: punish feminine behaviors, reinforce masculine behaviors at all times. And

781
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:30,879
Speaker 1: they said that, hey, this is working because every time

782
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:33,800
Speaker 1: this boy gets punished for doing something feminine, he stops

783
00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:37,160
Speaker 1: and like chops wood or throws the football and gets

784
00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:40,160
Speaker 1: a reward. So because he's four and a half years old,

785
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:44,319
Speaker 1: he's doing the things that their parents congratulate him for

786
00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:45,520
Speaker 1: and reward him for.

787
00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:48,200
Speaker 3: And not doing the things that he's getting punished for.

788
00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 3: And exactly the punishment is what stood out to me.

789
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:52,960
Speaker 3: It's just so sad that the mother was instructed to

790
00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:56,560
Speaker 3: reject him, to basically ignore him when he acted like

791
00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:58,640
Speaker 3: a girl, but not ignore him like pretend it's not

792
00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:01,320
Speaker 3: going on, like let him know that she is giving

793
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:04,320
Speaker 3: him the cold shoulder and that that's how he learned.

794
00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:06,840
Speaker 3: And that is just devastating.

795
00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:07,600
Speaker 4: It's heartbreaking.

796
00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:10,920
Speaker 1: And what's heartbreaking is this is used was used as

797
00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:13,759
Speaker 1: an example like see this works. This four and a

798
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:16,480
Speaker 1: half year old is now acting more masculine and is

799
00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:19,719
Speaker 1: not going to grow up to be gay. And this

800
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:24,160
Speaker 1: this child died by suicide at the age of thirty. Yeah,

801
00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:26,480
Speaker 1: Like that's the end result of this road. That's where

802
00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:27,000
Speaker 1: it ends up.

803
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:28,799
Speaker 3: And that's what I meant earlier when I said, like,

804
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:32,600
Speaker 3: it does kind of work because it follows psychological techniques

805
00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:35,440
Speaker 3: that actually work. But it works in like kind of

806
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:38,520
Speaker 3: a bent way where yes, you can train somebody, You

807
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:41,279
Speaker 3: can mold a four year old to behave in a

808
00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:44,520
Speaker 3: certain way by conditioning them. It's possible you can get

809
00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:48,640
Speaker 3: somebody to do just about anything like that. But the ramifications,

810
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:52,759
Speaker 3: the results, the damage to the individual's identity that will

811
00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:57,600
Speaker 3: eventually come out later are widespread and sweeping. Yeah, And

812
00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:01,319
Speaker 3: that's the point. That's why you shouldn't monkey around with

813
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:06,120
Speaker 3: somebody's identity using proven psychological techniques. That's what's so evil

814
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:06,960
Speaker 3: about the whole thing.

815
00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:08,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, my daughter's four and a half had

816
00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:10,520
Speaker 1: a hard time even getting through this stuff.

817
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:14,239
Speaker 3: And then also if somebody this is the other thing too,

818
00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:17,600
Speaker 3: if you're a conversion therapy advocate or activist or practitioner,

819
00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:20,399
Speaker 3: and that you say, no, there are people out there

820
00:44:20,719 --> 00:44:26,759
Speaker 3: who are distressed who are experiencing psychological distress for being gay. Yes,

821
00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:29,279
Speaker 3: that's true. I guarantee that there are people like that

822
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:32,600
Speaker 3: out there, But directing them toward working on not being

823
00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:34,040
Speaker 3: gay is not the answer.

824
00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:35,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, go to regular therapy.

825
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:38,680
Speaker 3: And learn to love that you're gay, and go find

826
00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:40,960
Speaker 3: a church that accepts gay people. There's step two.

827
00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:44,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, because they're out there, let's talk about the science

828
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:45,279
Speaker 1: of it, because we.

829
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:48,239
Speaker 3: Are so contributing to a decade into society.

830
00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:50,400
Speaker 1: In two thousand and nine, there was a report from

831
00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:55,680
Speaker 1: the APA Task Force on Appropriate Therapeutic Responses to Sexual Orientation.

832
00:44:56,239 --> 00:45:00,480
Speaker 1: Quite a read, and this was the actual final stance

833
00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:05,960
Speaker 1: was sexual orientation change efforts can pose critical health risks

834
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:11,680
Speaker 1: to lesbian, gay and bisexual people. Critical health risks, not

835
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:14,279
Speaker 1: emotional not I mean it's part of emotional health too,

836
00:45:14,719 --> 00:45:20,440
Speaker 1: but critical health risks. And if you read the review

837
00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:24,640
Speaker 1: of research and peer reviewed literature and the findings of

838
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:26,640
Speaker 1: what it can result in, it reads like the worst

839
00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:32,680
Speaker 1: pharma ad disclaimer you've ever heard. Depression, guilt, helplessness, hopelessness, shame,

840
00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:39,120
Speaker 1: self hatred, hostility, dehumanization, betrayal, social withdrawal, substance abuse, stress,

841
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:44,000
Speaker 1: sexual dysfunction, loss of faith, and suicidality. And on that

842
00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:49,240
Speaker 1: last note, homosexual teens attempts suicide more often than heterosexual teens.

843
00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:51,800
Speaker 4: And then among those homosexual.

844
00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:55,120
Speaker 1: Teens, you're twice as likely to try that if your

845
00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:58,399
Speaker 1: parents have rejected you, and three times as likely if

846
00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:00,640
Speaker 1: you have undergone convert therapy.

847
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:05,560
Speaker 3: Three times is likely, yes, compared to a heterosexual team.

848
00:46:05,640 --> 00:46:10,360
Speaker 3: That's right, man, Well do you have it? That was

849
00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:13,960
Speaker 3: just the apa that a bunch of different associations, like

850
00:46:14,120 --> 00:46:18,920
Speaker 3: legit medical and psychological associations have come out and condemned

851
00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:23,399
Speaker 3: in no uncertain terms conversion therapy. And all of these

852
00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:27,560
Speaker 3: condemnations basically follow two different texts. One, there is no

853
00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:31,320
Speaker 3: science backing up the idea that you can change somebody

854
00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:37,760
Speaker 3: from homosexuality to heterosexuality. And number two, there is science

855
00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:41,680
Speaker 3: backing up the idea that trying to do that causes

856
00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:45,480
Speaker 3: damage to the individual, So don't do that. And as

857
00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:49,920
Speaker 3: a matter of fact, some countries and states in the

858
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:54,319
Speaker 3: United States have said, well, this is outlawed, you can't

859
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:58,400
Speaker 3: do this anymore everybody, which is really touchy stuff because again,

860
00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:03,719
Speaker 3: the Christian right kind of adopted it, and we don't

861
00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:07,040
Speaker 3: really infringe on religious beliefs. But that's how strong these

862
00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:10,319
Speaker 3: condemnations have been that they're saying, we'll kind of start

863
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:12,240
Speaker 3: to wade into that with this one.

864
00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:16,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, and we'll talk about the legalities of recent years

865
00:47:16,719 --> 00:47:21,319
Speaker 1: in a sec But before that, between the seventies and

866
00:47:21,640 --> 00:47:26,279
Speaker 1: the APA's stance changing things a little bit, then through

867
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:29,560
Speaker 1: the eighties and nineties, where conversion therapy was really sort

868
00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:32,000
Speaker 1: of hitting its peak. I think in America there were

869
00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:34,160
Speaker 1: a lot of there were a few high profile cases

870
00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:38,640
Speaker 1: that were exposed that have helped sway things a little

871
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:40,320
Speaker 1: bit back to sanity.

872
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:42,280
Speaker 4: So first thing, more recent years.

873
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:45,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, So before those high profile cases, and I mean

874
00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:48,560
Speaker 3: right before them, I think in nineteen ninety eight, a

875
00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:54,600
Speaker 3: coalition of church groups got together and sponsored an ad campaign,

876
00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:57,320
Speaker 3: something like a six hundred thousand dollars ad campaign, and

877
00:47:57,400 --> 00:47:59,600
Speaker 3: things like the New York Times, Los Angeles Times all

878
00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:05,240
Speaker 3: this and this ad featured John and Ann I believe

879
00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:09,319
Speaker 3: Anne Polk, both of whom were formerly gay but were

880
00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:11,920
Speaker 3: now ex gay and married and married and had a kid,

881
00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:15,680
Speaker 3: and said gay conversion helps. And at the time, there

882
00:48:15,719 --> 00:48:18,400
Speaker 3: wasn't a lot of ink on the other side saying

883
00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:22,840
Speaker 3: actually this is totally discredited, and it captured everybody's attention.

884
00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:25,600
Speaker 3: And this was when the Christian wright came in and said,

885
00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:28,080
Speaker 3: we're going to make this huge push in the culture war,

886
00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:30,880
Speaker 3: and it really worked. That's when that Newsweek's story came out.

887
00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:32,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, they were on the cover of Newsweek.

888
00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:33,319
Speaker 3: He was.

889
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:37,319
Speaker 1: He was a leader of an ex gay organization called

890
00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:38,360
Speaker 1: Exodus International.

891
00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:40,920
Speaker 3: John Pauk was right, and it brought a lot of

892
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:45,520
Speaker 3: the poster boy yes, and in Exodus International in particular

893
00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:49,799
Speaker 3: became one of two main umbrella organizations. They were kind

894
00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:54,200
Speaker 3: of like this I saw it put the spiritual version

895
00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:58,280
Speaker 3: of this the X gay movement, and then something called NARTH,

896
00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:02,759
Speaker 3: the National Association Research and Therapy of Homosexuality, was like

897
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:07,040
Speaker 3: the scientific branch of the ex gay movement. And so

898
00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:12,880
Speaker 3: Exodus International became a very well known prominent organization in

899
00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:16,759
Speaker 3: the late nineties. But within two three years two it

900
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:21,360
Speaker 3: would be it would basically be the poster child for

901
00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:23,600
Speaker 3: how conversion therapy doesn't.

902
00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:27,720
Speaker 1: Work right, because John Paulk is gay. In two thousand,

903
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:31,560
Speaker 1: just two years later, he was photographed coming out of

904
00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:34,759
Speaker 1: a gay bar in Washington, d C. At the time,

905
00:49:34,920 --> 00:49:36,879
Speaker 1: he refuted that he didn't refute that he was there,

906
00:49:37,160 --> 00:49:39,719
Speaker 1: He said, what you always say, I didn't know it

907
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:40,279
Speaker 1: was a gay bar.

908
00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:42,160
Speaker 3: I went in there asking for directions.

909
00:49:42,200 --> 00:49:44,200
Speaker 1: Now I saw he went and to use the bathroom.

910
00:49:44,280 --> 00:49:47,360
Speaker 1: So no, either way, I just read the article and

911
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:49,319
Speaker 1: then they were like, but you're in there for a

912
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:53,040
Speaker 1: couple of hours. Did you get the directions and use

913
00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:53,640
Speaker 1: the bathroom?

914
00:49:53,719 --> 00:49:57,560
Speaker 3: It clearly says blue Oyster in neon. Have you not

915
00:49:57,640 --> 00:49:59,200
Speaker 3: seen the Police Academy movies?

916
00:50:00,680 --> 00:50:02,239
Speaker 4: That was the name of it in the Police Academy, right,

917
00:50:02,280 --> 00:50:03,480
Speaker 4: the Blue Oyster Bar, d D.

918
00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:09,439
Speaker 1: Dan Goodness uh and John Pauk, we should say, now

919
00:50:09,640 --> 00:50:13,080
Speaker 1: lives life as a gay man and is a chef.

920
00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:15,440
Speaker 1: He's been on like some celebrity chef shows.

921
00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:18,600
Speaker 3: All right, uh huh cool, and he is uh living

922
00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:19,440
Speaker 3: his best life.

923
00:50:19,480 --> 00:50:21,520
Speaker 4: He's living his best life from what it looks like.

924
00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:25,320
Speaker 3: So he's no longer married any longer to ann Actually

925
00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:28,800
Speaker 3: that I don't know, because there are some well we'll

926
00:50:28,840 --> 00:50:29,279
Speaker 3: keep going.

927
00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:33,000
Speaker 1: I don't think he is, but there are a couple

928
00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:35,080
Speaker 1: of people that are. There was in two thousand and

929
00:50:35,120 --> 00:50:39,000
Speaker 1: three Michael Johnston. He was another person touted as an

930
00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:42,640
Speaker 1: ex gay success story, founder of National Coming Out of

931
00:50:42,719 --> 00:50:43,960
Speaker 1: Homosexuality Day.

932
00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:46,160
Speaker 4: He actually was.

933
00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:49,839
Speaker 1: He was found out to be having sex with men

934
00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:54,520
Speaker 1: that he met online and infected them with HIV. Very

935
00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:57,160
Speaker 1: big deal. And then there's Ted Haggard. Of course in

936
00:50:57,160 --> 00:50:59,360
Speaker 1: two thousand and six I remember this. Yeah, he was

937
00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:03,560
Speaker 1: a preacher and president of the National Association of Evangelicals

938
00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:06,680
Speaker 1: or was it the time. I guess very much an

939
00:51:06,719 --> 00:51:12,040
Speaker 1: anti gay leader in the religious circles. And this one

940
00:51:12,120 --> 00:51:16,839
Speaker 1: sort of unfolded little by little, like, hey, this guy

941
00:51:16,880 --> 00:51:19,160
Speaker 1: came out and said, this guy had a relationship with

942
00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:21,840
Speaker 1: me for like three years. We did crystal meth together.

943
00:51:22,640 --> 00:51:25,799
Speaker 1: And then Haggard came out and said, you know what,

944
00:51:25,880 --> 00:51:28,400
Speaker 1: I have to admit, I sinned. I bought crystal meth,

945
00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:30,080
Speaker 1: but I didn't use it. I threw it in the

946
00:51:30,080 --> 00:51:34,239
Speaker 1: trash because I wouldn't succumb to the sin. Is everyb

947
00:51:34,360 --> 00:51:36,479
Speaker 1: he said, Yeah, he says he did buy crystal meth,

948
00:51:37,160 --> 00:51:40,640
Speaker 1: and because I assumed that was proof, and he said

949
00:51:40,640 --> 00:51:42,160
Speaker 1: that he didn't use it at all. He threw it

950
00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:43,600
Speaker 1: in the trash before he used it, where the other

951
00:51:43,640 --> 00:51:45,480
Speaker 1: guy was like, no, he did tons of meth and

952
00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:46,439
Speaker 1: had gay sex a lot.

953
00:51:47,160 --> 00:51:49,160
Speaker 3: I know he's talking about on like day four of

954
00:51:49,239 --> 00:51:51,960
Speaker 3: us staying up. He like freaked out and threw it

955
00:51:51,960 --> 00:51:54,680
Speaker 3: in the trash, but then he went back and got it,

956
00:51:55,760 --> 00:51:57,840
Speaker 3: and the proof was that he paid for it by check.

957
00:51:59,400 --> 00:52:02,440
Speaker 1: Maybe no, no, probably not. I don't think met dealers

958
00:52:02,480 --> 00:52:05,120
Speaker 1: take checks any or do you thing? And then that

959
00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:08,719
Speaker 1: was he was outed by a having a relationship with

960
00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:11,200
Speaker 1: an underage boy, a sexual relationship.

961
00:52:11,239 --> 00:52:12,279
Speaker 3: This is Ted Haggard again.

962
00:52:12,840 --> 00:52:17,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, and the boy sued and it was settled by

963
00:52:17,040 --> 00:52:18,760
Speaker 1: the church with a dollar figure.

964
00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:20,360
Speaker 4: I think it was like one hundred and eighty grand.

965
00:52:21,040 --> 00:52:24,239
Speaker 1: And then finally in twenty eleven, Ted Haggard comes out

966
00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:26,200
Speaker 1: and is like, all right, so I did have a

967
00:52:26,200 --> 00:52:29,120
Speaker 1: relationship with a boy, but we never touched each other.

968
00:52:29,239 --> 00:52:30,960
Speaker 4: I just masturbated in front of him.

969
00:52:31,040 --> 00:52:32,080
Speaker 3: I threw him in the trash.

970
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:36,560
Speaker 1: And in twenty eleven he said, you know what, I'm bisexual.

971
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:37,799
Speaker 4: I'm going to admit it.

972
00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:40,920
Speaker 1: I am bisexual, but I am going to choose to

973
00:52:40,960 --> 00:52:45,680
Speaker 1: live my life as a faithful heterosexual husband to my wife.

974
00:52:46,120 --> 00:52:50,759
Speaker 3: I wonder if, after he admitted that it came out

975
00:52:50,800 --> 00:52:54,319
Speaker 3: as bisexual, what that felt like, if he felt like

976
00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:57,640
Speaker 3: a weight was lifted, or if the anxiety associated with

977
00:52:57,719 --> 00:53:01,120
Speaker 3: it was just so much, or know what his wife

978
00:53:01,600 --> 00:53:03,880
Speaker 3: knew or didn't know or thought about it. I'd be

979
00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:06,040
Speaker 3: very curious to know what that, you know, what life

980
00:53:06,080 --> 00:53:07,719
Speaker 3: has been like for him after that.

981
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:09,879
Speaker 4: I mean, he's a preacher again, because I.

982
00:53:09,840 --> 00:53:11,560
Speaker 3: Mean, more power to him. If he's like, I'm a

983
00:53:11,640 --> 00:53:14,160
Speaker 3: Christian and I'm just not going to have gay sex.

984
00:53:14,239 --> 00:53:16,840
Speaker 3: That's as much a personal choice as having gay sex,

985
00:53:17,520 --> 00:53:20,520
Speaker 3: you know. I mean the whole underage boy thing. That's

986
00:53:20,560 --> 00:53:24,840
Speaker 3: a huge problem that I think I'm hoping was addressed.

987
00:53:24,840 --> 00:53:28,399
Speaker 3: But I wonder what his life is like now.

988
00:53:29,239 --> 00:53:31,279
Speaker 1: Oh, I mean he's, like I said, he's preaching again.

989
00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:33,680
Speaker 1: I think in Colorado.

990
00:53:33,400 --> 00:53:36,640
Speaker 3: He's probably a stuff you should know. Listener Haggard right in.

991
00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:40,200
Speaker 4: We'd like to hear from you, sir, you want to

992
00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:41,160
Speaker 4: talk about the law.

993
00:53:42,640 --> 00:53:44,680
Speaker 1: Because right now, oh wait, there was one more, Chuck,

994
00:53:44,719 --> 00:53:46,840
Speaker 1: there's a big one, Alan Chambers.

995
00:53:47,000 --> 00:53:50,520
Speaker 3: Yes, so John Paulk. When he was outed cruising the

996
00:53:50,520 --> 00:53:53,279
Speaker 3: Blue Oyster in DC back in two thousand, he was

997
00:53:53,360 --> 00:53:54,839
Speaker 3: running Exodus International.

998
00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:55,320
Speaker 4: Yes.

999
00:53:56,480 --> 00:53:58,920
Speaker 3: He was replaced a couple of years later by Alan Chambers,

1000
00:53:59,800 --> 00:54:03,799
Speaker 3: and about a decade after Chambers took over Exodus International,

1001
00:54:04,280 --> 00:54:08,960
Speaker 3: he said, I'm gay I've been gay. Conversion therapy doesn't work.

1002
00:54:09,320 --> 00:54:11,279
Speaker 3: We're shutting down Exodus International.

1003
00:54:11,360 --> 00:54:14,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I apologize to the LGTBQ community.

1004
00:54:14,520 --> 00:54:18,360
Speaker 3: Yes. So, within about a decade or so of the

1005
00:54:18,440 --> 00:54:22,880
Speaker 3: Christian Right adopting the X gay and Conversion Therapy pillar

1006
00:54:23,040 --> 00:54:26,160
Speaker 3: post as part of the platform for their culture war,

1007
00:54:27,600 --> 00:54:31,120
Speaker 3: the biggest organization, one of two biggest organizations dedicated to

1008
00:54:31,120 --> 00:54:34,880
Speaker 3: conversion therapy said it doesn't work. We're sorry gay people

1009
00:54:34,880 --> 00:54:37,400
Speaker 3: for all the damage we've done. Yeah, that's a pretty

1010
00:54:37,480 --> 00:54:40,840
Speaker 3: big turn of events, it is. So, Yes, it's still continues.

1011
00:54:40,880 --> 00:54:42,759
Speaker 3: So that led to Yeah, so that led to a

1012
00:54:42,760 --> 00:54:45,239
Speaker 3: bunch of laws. They're trying to keep it from continuing.

1013
00:54:45,560 --> 00:54:50,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, And the laws are basically usually around miners, saying

1014
00:54:50,880 --> 00:54:55,759
Speaker 1: you cannot force a minor to do something like this, right, not. Hey,

1015
00:54:55,840 --> 00:54:58,040
Speaker 1: the whole thing is outlawed. If you're an adult and

1016
00:54:58,080 --> 00:55:00,799
Speaker 1: you want to go do this, then that's up to you.

1017
00:55:01,440 --> 00:55:05,200
Speaker 1: As of twenty nineteen this year, eighteen states in Washington,

1018
00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:11,439
Speaker 1: d C. And Puerto Rico have similar bands enacted. And

1019
00:55:11,719 --> 00:55:14,160
Speaker 1: also it's important to point out that those bands are

1020
00:55:14,200 --> 00:55:18,640
Speaker 1: about the legitimate scientific community. Like you will have your

1021
00:55:18,680 --> 00:55:22,400
Speaker 1: license revoked, doesn't say anything about a preacher that you

1022
00:55:22,440 --> 00:55:25,040
Speaker 1: go to, or a youth counselor or any you know,

1023
00:55:25,160 --> 00:55:26,960
Speaker 1: sort of non licensed church there.

1024
00:55:27,000 --> 00:55:32,320
Speaker 3: Right, it's only scientists or licensed counselors or psychologists or

1025
00:55:32,360 --> 00:55:36,040
Speaker 3: psychiatrists or doctors. I'm sure who can lose their license

1026
00:55:36,040 --> 00:55:36,960
Speaker 3: if they practice it.

1027
00:55:37,000 --> 00:55:37,359
Speaker 4: That's right.

1028
00:55:37,440 --> 00:55:42,280
Speaker 3: But yeah, that's because there's religious freedom. It's I guess

1029
00:55:42,320 --> 00:55:45,120
Speaker 3: you can still do that to minors, though if it's

1030
00:55:45,120 --> 00:55:46,880
Speaker 3: a religious group doing.

1031
00:55:46,680 --> 00:55:51,480
Speaker 4: It, that is what I'm not sure about. So for

1032
00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:52,520
Speaker 4: the well, it depends on the state.

1033
00:55:53,239 --> 00:55:56,640
Speaker 3: So there was a group or there was a counseling

1034
00:55:58,600 --> 00:55:59,960
Speaker 3: organization called.

1035
00:56:01,280 --> 00:56:03,640
Speaker 4: And Jonah is this Goldbird and Burke.

1036
00:56:04,040 --> 00:56:07,239
Speaker 3: Yes, they ran Jonah, which stood for I can't find

1037
00:56:07,239 --> 00:56:07,760
Speaker 3: it anywhere.

1038
00:56:07,800 --> 00:56:10,640
Speaker 4: I got to hear Jews offering a new alternative for healing.

1039
00:56:10,840 --> 00:56:16,560
Speaker 3: Okay. They were not only found practicing in New Jersey

1040
00:56:17,520 --> 00:56:21,160
Speaker 3: conversion therapy, so they both lost their licenses. They were

1041
00:56:21,200 --> 00:56:24,120
Speaker 3: also sued in a civil suit by former patients for

1042
00:56:24,239 --> 00:56:25,480
Speaker 3: fraud and lost.

1043
00:56:25,680 --> 00:56:27,239
Speaker 4: It's interesting if you think about it.

1044
00:56:27,520 --> 00:56:29,920
Speaker 1: Wait a minute, if this is not possible, right, you're

1045
00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:31,720
Speaker 1: charging people for it, right, that's fraud.

1046
00:56:31,920 --> 00:56:33,719
Speaker 3: So they had like a three and a half million

1047
00:56:33,760 --> 00:56:37,080
Speaker 3: dollar settlement levied against them and lost their licenses, But

1048
00:56:37,080 --> 00:56:39,480
Speaker 3: then they just set up shop under another name, apparently

1049
00:56:39,520 --> 00:56:42,560
Speaker 3: the same year of the verdict in the civil suit.

1050
00:56:42,920 --> 00:56:45,640
Speaker 3: But for the most part, if you're a state and

1051
00:56:45,680 --> 00:56:50,880
Speaker 3: you pass a law banning conversion therapy to minors among

1052
00:56:51,440 --> 00:56:56,360
Speaker 3: medical practitioners or counselors, the courts are going to uphold

1053
00:56:56,400 --> 00:56:56,880
Speaker 3: that law.

1054
00:56:57,320 --> 00:57:00,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's been upheld in California and New Jersey. Most

1055
00:57:00,680 --> 00:57:03,600
Speaker 1: of the challenges are on the grounds of free speech.

1056
00:57:05,360 --> 00:57:08,400
Speaker 1: And the New Jersey when they upheld the New Jersey

1057
00:57:08,480 --> 00:57:12,759
Speaker 1: or maybe it was Maryland, the judge said, we're not

1058
00:57:12,800 --> 00:57:15,200
Speaker 1: infringing on your free speech. You can say whatever you want,

1059
00:57:15,760 --> 00:57:19,440
Speaker 1: but you can't practice this therapy. That's different than free speech.

1060
00:57:19,800 --> 00:57:21,400
Speaker 1: You can believe what you want, say what you want,

1061
00:57:21,880 --> 00:57:25,120
Speaker 1: but you can't do this as part of your licensed therapy.

1062
00:57:25,280 --> 00:57:29,120
Speaker 3: It's the same thing as like if you if you

1063
00:57:29,520 --> 00:57:35,880
Speaker 3: carry out quack cancer treatments that is harmful, like you're

1064
00:57:35,920 --> 00:57:40,400
Speaker 3: poisoning your patients or whatever, and like they become they

1065
00:57:40,560 --> 00:57:43,320
Speaker 3: lose the use of their arms and legs because of

1066
00:57:43,400 --> 00:57:46,920
Speaker 3: a treatment that you gave them for cancer. That the

1067
00:57:46,960 --> 00:57:52,120
Speaker 3: American Medical Association has specifically said is damaging and harmful.

1068
00:57:52,760 --> 00:57:55,640
Speaker 3: You're totally going to get held accountable for that. You're

1069
00:57:55,720 --> 00:57:58,120
Speaker 3: lucky to just lose your license in that case. This

1070
00:57:58,240 --> 00:58:03,280
Speaker 3: is the exact same principle, Yeah, for sure. So because

1071
00:58:03,320 --> 00:58:06,720
Speaker 3: it deals mostly with minors or exclusively with miners, the

1072
00:58:06,720 --> 00:58:10,200
Speaker 3: course have upheld it. But New York City actually is

1073
00:58:10,240 --> 00:58:13,880
Speaker 3: widely considered to have overstepped its bounds and actually misstepped

1074
00:58:14,280 --> 00:58:18,800
Speaker 3: in this kind of culture war about conversion therapy in

1075
00:58:18,920 --> 00:58:22,600
Speaker 3: banning the practice among miners and adults, and that got

1076
00:58:22,640 --> 00:58:26,240
Speaker 3: New York City sued, and New York City was like, well,

1077
00:58:26,320 --> 00:58:30,200
Speaker 3: the Supreme Court's actually gotten pretty conservative lately, I don't

1078
00:58:30,200 --> 00:58:32,240
Speaker 3: know if we should test this, And they repealed.

1079
00:58:31,840 --> 00:58:36,280
Speaker 4: The ban, yeah, as a strategy, right to keep.

1080
00:58:36,120 --> 00:58:38,200
Speaker 3: It from getting tested in the Supreme Court, where the

1081
00:58:38,200 --> 00:58:41,720
Speaker 3: Supreme Court could say, no, all laws against conversion therapy

1082
00:58:42,040 --> 00:58:45,520
Speaker 3: are unconstitutional. You can't outlaw or ban it in any form.

1083
00:58:45,600 --> 00:58:45,800
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1084
00:58:45,800 --> 00:58:48,040
Speaker 1: And I think the Supreme Court already refused to hear

1085
00:58:48,080 --> 00:58:49,000
Speaker 1: one case.

1086
00:58:49,240 --> 00:58:55,360
Speaker 3: Which actually upheld the state's outlaw of conversion therapy. Yeah.

1087
00:58:55,480 --> 00:58:57,640
Speaker 1: Very interesting. There's a movie I haven't seen yet called

1088
00:58:57,640 --> 00:59:02,080
Speaker 1: The Miseducation of Camera and Posts. It's a twenty eighteen

1089
00:59:02,080 --> 00:59:05,840
Speaker 1: film from the twenty twelve novel by Emily Danforth. I

1090
00:59:05,920 --> 00:59:08,560
Speaker 1: haven't seen it yet, but it's about a girl who

1091
00:59:08,800 --> 00:59:14,320
Speaker 1: undergoes conversion therapy, and it's Chloe Grace Mortz Moritz.

1092
00:59:14,880 --> 00:59:15,600
Speaker 4: I you know her.

1093
00:59:16,040 --> 00:59:18,760
Speaker 3: I do. I can't put the face with the name,

1094
00:59:18,760 --> 00:59:19,439
Speaker 3: but I know both.

1095
00:59:19,480 --> 00:59:20,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, you've seen her for sure.

1096
00:59:20,560 --> 00:59:23,440
Speaker 3: Sure. If you want to know more about arrested development,

1097
00:59:24,080 --> 00:59:28,360
Speaker 3: conversion therapy, all that stuff, you can, well, I guess

1098
00:59:28,400 --> 00:59:31,440
Speaker 3: start researching online. See what you think. And since I

1099
00:59:31,520 --> 00:59:33,400
Speaker 3: said see what you think, it's time for listener mail.

1100
00:59:36,520 --> 00:59:40,280
Speaker 1: I'm going to call this complaint pedantic complaint. Okay, I

1101
00:59:40,320 --> 00:59:43,840
Speaker 1: write to complain Josh. In the episode on historic districts,

1102
00:59:44,120 --> 00:59:47,520
Speaker 1: you kept referring to them repeatedly with the indefinite article

1103
00:59:47,560 --> 00:59:50,720
Speaker 1: ANN rather than A and historic district.

1104
00:59:51,440 --> 00:59:52,160
Speaker 3: I said, ann.

1105
00:59:52,640 --> 00:59:53,400
Speaker 4: That's what he says.

1106
00:59:53,560 --> 00:59:56,080
Speaker 3: That sounds unusual. I don't usually do that. Really, I

1107
00:59:56,080 --> 00:59:58,320
Speaker 3: guess I was just being unconsciously correct.

1108
00:59:59,360 --> 01:00:00,000
Speaker 4: So is that correct?

1109
01:00:00,280 --> 01:00:00,960
Speaker 3: Yeah?

1110
01:00:01,040 --> 01:00:03,080
Speaker 4: So what's the rule? I don't know.

1111
01:00:03,640 --> 01:00:07,880
Speaker 3: Huh, what I just said, that's the rule. That's the rule.

1112
01:00:07,920 --> 01:00:10,440
Speaker 4: What I say, Okay, I.

1113
01:00:10,600 --> 01:00:14,080
Speaker 3: Try not to exercise it too much. Only when i'm right.

1114
01:00:14,560 --> 01:00:15,120
Speaker 4: Joe says this.

1115
01:00:15,240 --> 01:00:18,040
Speaker 1: I realize this infuriating practice has become popular in recent

1116
01:00:18,120 --> 01:00:20,880
Speaker 1: years in the US. I feel passionately that it must

1117
01:00:20,920 --> 01:00:24,280
Speaker 1: be discontinued, especially primarily by those voices are attended by

1118
01:00:24,360 --> 01:00:25,959
Speaker 1: large audiences like you.

1119
01:00:25,960 --> 01:00:27,800
Speaker 4: You are no doubt where the letter H is.

1120
01:00:27,800 --> 01:00:32,600
Speaker 1: A consonantssit necessity necessitating geez nice. The use of the

1121
01:00:32,640 --> 01:00:36,439
Speaker 1: indefinite article A rather than ann citation all grammar books. Ever,

1122
01:00:37,080 --> 01:00:38,600
Speaker 1: I should limit the scope of my gripe with an

1123
01:00:38,640 --> 01:00:42,080
Speaker 1: important caveat Cockneys. They should probably continue to say ann

1124
01:00:42,160 --> 01:00:43,720
Speaker 1: because they pronounce it historic.

1125
01:00:44,360 --> 01:00:46,880
Speaker 3: This guy doesn't even know that the rhyming slang episode

1126
01:00:46,960 --> 01:00:48,520
Speaker 3: is coming out. How weird.

1127
01:00:48,800 --> 01:00:50,520
Speaker 1: But guys, that's not really what I write today. I

1128
01:00:50,520 --> 01:00:52,400
Speaker 1: love the show. I wanted to tell you. I wanted

1129
01:00:52,440 --> 01:00:54,400
Speaker 1: to wait for a halfway plausible pretense to make the

1130
01:00:54,440 --> 01:00:56,560
Speaker 1: email a little more fun, which I hope this has

1131
01:00:56,600 --> 01:00:59,680
Speaker 1: been any chance on an episode of How Pedantry Works.

1132
01:01:00,360 --> 01:01:03,240
Speaker 4: Keep up a good work, Joe, He's spoken fun.

1133
01:01:03,440 --> 01:01:05,040
Speaker 3: Turns out he's good. Peeps after all?

1134
01:01:05,200 --> 01:01:07,439
Speaker 4: Yes, is the and before an ah? Is that a thing?

1135
01:01:08,000 --> 01:01:08,439
Speaker 3: Oh? Yeah?

1136
01:01:08,520 --> 01:01:09,040
Speaker 4: That is it?

1137
01:01:09,520 --> 01:01:11,960
Speaker 3: Yeah? I think I don't know if it's proper or not.

1138
01:01:12,240 --> 01:01:15,680
Speaker 3: But I understand where it comes from because the vowel

1139
01:01:16,880 --> 01:01:20,320
Speaker 3: that comes right after the age is usually so heavily

1140
01:01:20,440 --> 01:01:24,400
Speaker 3: pronounced in relation to how it's pronounced when it comes

1141
01:01:24,400 --> 01:01:29,760
Speaker 3: after other consonants, like an historic and historic district sounds

1142
01:01:30,560 --> 01:01:33,640
Speaker 3: an honor and honor a honor? Which one sounds better?

1143
01:01:33,920 --> 01:01:35,640
Speaker 4: Like I was bestowed an honor?

1144
01:01:36,000 --> 01:01:38,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, the other way, but you wouldn't say dog vomiting.

1145
01:01:39,160 --> 01:01:41,880
Speaker 1: In high school, I had an history teacher that was great.

1146
01:01:43,480 --> 01:01:45,400
Speaker 1: You know, it's really weird.

1147
01:01:46,440 --> 01:01:47,640
Speaker 3: Did Joe tell you to say that?

1148
01:01:47,760 --> 01:01:47,800
Speaker 1: No?

1149
01:01:47,920 --> 01:01:50,960
Speaker 4: I just thought of it because an historic history teacher.

1150
01:01:51,440 --> 01:01:54,360
Speaker 3: I had a historic Yeah, both work. How about this,

1151
01:01:54,720 --> 01:01:58,560
Speaker 3: We're both right, Joe, try not to focus on such

1152
01:01:58,600 --> 01:01:59,360
Speaker 3: stupid stuff.

1153
01:01:59,400 --> 01:02:00,160
Speaker 4: I'm cure.

1154
01:02:01,040 --> 01:02:03,240
Speaker 1: I'm curious if there I really want another rule now,

1155
01:02:03,280 --> 01:02:05,880
Speaker 1: because I know it's a consonant, But if people are

1156
01:02:05,920 --> 01:02:08,040
Speaker 1: saying it these days, is that just some sort of

1157
01:02:08,080 --> 01:02:09,880
Speaker 1: a fighting the system.

1158
01:02:10,000 --> 01:02:14,200
Speaker 3: That's the descriptivest way. The prescriptivist is like, no, it's

1159
01:02:14,280 --> 01:02:18,120
Speaker 3: this way right. Joe's the prescriptivist here. We're descriptivists, all right.

1160
01:02:18,200 --> 01:02:19,520
Speaker 3: I think we've proven ourselves there.

1161
01:02:19,560 --> 01:02:22,320
Speaker 1: Maybe we should launch a side podcast called the descriptivists.

1162
01:02:22,480 --> 01:02:25,280
Speaker 3: Oh that's a good one. Yeah, almost as like a

1163
01:02:25,640 --> 01:02:29,080
Speaker 3: Civil War era folk band feel to it.

1164
01:02:29,480 --> 01:02:30,960
Speaker 4: We'd have to curly cues that one.

1165
01:02:31,040 --> 01:02:32,720
Speaker 3: That's fine, We're not going to do that. We could

1166
01:02:32,720 --> 01:02:34,640
Speaker 3: get fake ones that we just took on and off

1167
01:02:34,640 --> 01:02:35,840
Speaker 3: for publicity.

1168
01:02:35,360 --> 01:02:37,520
Speaker 4: For all right, scout mob, all right.

1169
01:02:39,200 --> 01:02:41,240
Speaker 3: Uh. If you want to get in touch with this,

1170
01:02:41,400 --> 01:02:43,680
Speaker 3: like Joe did, have a little quibble, a little gripe

1171
01:02:43,760 --> 01:02:45,920
Speaker 3: or praise or whatever, you can go on to stuff

1172
01:02:45,920 --> 01:02:48,880
Speaker 3: you Should Know dot com and check us out. Our

1173
01:02:48,960 --> 01:02:51,360
Speaker 3: social links are all up there. You can also send

1174
01:02:51,400 --> 01:02:58,040
Speaker 3: us an email to stuff podcast at iHeartRadio dot com.

1175
01:02:58,240 --> 01:03:01,080
Speaker 2: Stuff you Should Know is a production of Radio. For

1176
01:03:01,200 --> 01:03:05,360
Speaker 2: more podcasts my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1177
01:03:05,480 --> 01:03:07,320
Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.