1 00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: Amy Roboc and TJ. 2 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:15,360 Speaker 2: Holmes present Killer Thriller with your host Alisa Donovan. Hey, everyone, 3 00:00:15,520 --> 00:00:19,360 Speaker 2: Elisa Donovan here and this is Killer Thriller. Today we 4 00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:23,680 Speaker 2: are continuing our conversation with filmmaker Joe Berlinger, director of 5 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:28,280 Speaker 2: Extremely Wicked, Shockingly Evil, and Vile. In part one, we 6 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 2: explored the man behind one of the most notorious murder 7 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:35,199 Speaker 2: spreees in American history and the challenges of bringing Ted 8 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:39,160 Speaker 2: Bundy's story to the screen. Today, we'll dive deeper into 9 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:43,960 Speaker 2: Bundy's psychology, the investigation, the women whose lives were forever 10 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:47,919 Speaker 2: changed by his crimes, and what Joe learned after spending 11 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:52,120 Speaker 2: years immersed in this case. Was there a moment during 12 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:57,960 Speaker 2: filming where Zach's performance unsettled you or did he talk 13 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:00,920 Speaker 2: to you about the psychological challenge just playing him? 14 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean we didn't do a lot of I 15 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:10,480 Speaker 3: think he nailed it tremendously. I mean, I had the 16 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:15,960 Speaker 3: good fortune of doing the doc prior to the scripted movie, 17 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:18,200 Speaker 3: so I truly was an expert, and we had a 18 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:22,479 Speaker 3: lot of conversation, and the doc series hadn't yet come 19 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:26,479 Speaker 3: out while I was shooting the movie, but I had 20 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:29,240 Speaker 3: a whole in fact, we were doing the final editing, 21 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:31,120 Speaker 3: and I was kind of doing double duty. I was 22 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:34,839 Speaker 3: finishing off conversations with the killer, you know, giving notes 23 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 3: on cuts during prep of Extremely Wicked, and while while 24 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 3: we shot that and but the you know, but that 25 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:45,880 Speaker 3: allowed me to, like, you know, I gave them lots 26 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 3: of archival footage. I gave them, like, you know, some 27 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 3: rough cuts of the doc. You know. We As a director, 28 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:56,400 Speaker 3: I don't like over rehearsing, like I don't know, I 29 00:01:56,600 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 3: like just you know, for me, rehearsals are on the 30 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:03,880 Speaker 3: scripted side of things. I mean, because I'm mainly a documentarian, 31 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 3: I like to bring that aesthetic to it. I don't 32 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:09,720 Speaker 3: like get things up on their feet and rehearse. And 33 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:12,800 Speaker 3: I'm not precious about every word. I like improv. I like, 34 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:15,840 Speaker 3: you know, on the day, really finding what works best 35 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:19,799 Speaker 3: and not being overly locked into rehearsing something. You know, 36 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:24,920 Speaker 3: others direct differently, every word has to be spoken, everything, 37 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:28,639 Speaker 3: every mark has to be hit exactly the way they 38 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:32,200 Speaker 3: thought about it three weeks ago, which is not criticizing 39 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:34,680 Speaker 3: that style of filmmaking or anything in between. But I'm 40 00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 3: much looser, so rehearsal for us really was just Lily, 41 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:41,840 Speaker 3: Zach and I sitting around the table just talking about 42 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:46,200 Speaker 3: these things, talking about character, talking about motivation, you know, 43 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 3: me teaching them a little bit about the story. And 44 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:56,640 Speaker 3: so I think Zach really just absorbed the role in 45 00:02:56,680 --> 00:02:58,320 Speaker 3: a way that, Yeah, there was a there was a 46 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:01,920 Speaker 3: number of times that it was like whoa, that's like 47 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 3: I think he was all in. You know. There's my 48 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:08,360 Speaker 3: favorite shot in the movie is John Malkovich. 49 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:09,880 Speaker 1: Plays the judge so brilliant. 50 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 3: And this is why the film is called extremely wicked, shocking, evil, 51 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:16,399 Speaker 3: and bile because the real judge Coward, Edward Coward, who 52 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:20,240 Speaker 3: was in that courtroom, and you even seen see just 53 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:23,240 Speaker 3: going back to the like even the judge found him likable. 54 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:26,840 Speaker 3: It gave him great latitude to represent himself as he's yes, 55 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 3: as he's sentencing him, he's saying, Hey, you would have 56 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:31,960 Speaker 3: made a great lawyer, you know. I mean all that 57 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:34,680 Speaker 3: copy in there is verbatim copy from the trial. 58 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 1: It's not like I cannot get over that. 59 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, like you would have made a great lawyer. 60 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:42,680 Speaker 2: You know, you're intelligent, harbor, no ill will towards you 61 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:43,840 Speaker 2: or something like that. 62 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:46,800 Speaker 3: You went the wrong way. I mean, this is the 63 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:48,120 Speaker 3: effect he's had on people. 64 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 1: Take care of yourself, he said, exactly. 65 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 3: My favorite shot is we do this long push into 66 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 3: Zach's eyes as he's just still obfuscating. I mean, that's 67 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:02,800 Speaker 3: the other thing that character ees Bundy from other serial killers. 68 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:06,840 Speaker 3: Up until the day of his death. He obfuscated only 69 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 3: only right towards the execution. Was he willing to give 70 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:14,280 Speaker 3: out information because he was trying to extend his life. 71 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:16,880 Speaker 3: But like you know, Dahmer, when he was finally caught, 72 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:21,000 Speaker 3: it was almost relieved. I showed conversation with the killer 73 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:24,880 Speaker 3: the Jeffrey Dohmer tapes, and this young lawyer, Wendy Patrickiss 74 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:28,680 Speaker 3: was able to extract from him because he was very contrite. 75 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:28,839 Speaker 1: At that point. 76 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 3: I'm not excusing Dahmer or whatever. He did horrible things, 77 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:35,360 Speaker 3: but he actually was very contrite and gave a lot 78 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:38,159 Speaker 3: of details so that you know, they found human body 79 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:40,360 Speaker 3: parts and they needed to know who these people were, 80 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:43,760 Speaker 3: as gross as that is. And so he was willing 81 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 3: to give upon arrest, give information to this young lawyer, 82 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 3: and so they were able to identify a lot of 83 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:55,480 Speaker 3: the victims. Bundy just you know, obfuscated and denied up 84 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:59,840 Speaker 3: and almost up until his death and this shot where 85 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:02,360 Speaker 3: I just see a zach Efron like we were all 86 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:05,279 Speaker 3: just like whoa like took our breath away as we're 87 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:09,039 Speaker 3: pushing in on him and he's just denying, denying and 88 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 3: talking about this is not me. So that was a 89 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 3: moment that really I felt he captured it. Yeah, you know, 90 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:18,240 Speaker 3: but yeah, I thought he did an amazing job. 91 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:21,120 Speaker 1: Yeah he did, and Lily as well. Everyone. 92 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:24,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, Lily. I think Lily Collins is the great unsung 93 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:27,080 Speaker 3: hero of the film. You know, Zach middle but I 94 00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:30,360 Speaker 3: think Lily was awesome, you know, and she got decent 95 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:33,240 Speaker 3: notices or whatever, but Zach was the guy who got 96 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:36,160 Speaker 3: all the attention. So I about that because I mean, 97 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 3: no one has to cry for Lily Collins because she's 98 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:38,919 Speaker 3: gone on. 99 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:40,919 Speaker 1: Yeah she's doing great. 100 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:45,359 Speaker 3: Got onto amazing things. But you know, she should have 101 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:48,240 Speaker 3: gotten a little more credit for a very difficult, really 102 00:05:48,279 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 3: good performance, you know. 103 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:53,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, she was as well as the actress who played 104 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 2: Carol Boone. Carol Boone, right, the one that then he married. 105 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:00,720 Speaker 3: I mean she was great Sculledaria. 106 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:04,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, she's. 107 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:05,960 Speaker 3: Such an attractive woman in real life that she was 108 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 3: willing to make herself look like that too was very brave. 109 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:11,480 Speaker 1: You know, yes, I loved that. I loved that. She's 110 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:12,600 Speaker 1: very very good. 111 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:32,239 Speaker 2: So Bundy escaped from custody twice, and looking back today, 112 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 2: that seems almost I mean, it seems unbelievable. I mean, 113 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 2: how did that. It seems like he was given so 114 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 2: much freedom for a person on trial for such uniquely 115 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:44,000 Speaker 2: violent crimes. 116 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 3: And this is this is this is why when they 117 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:50,680 Speaker 3: say why would you cast somebody like Zach who's charming 118 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:53,200 Speaker 3: and good looking, then you're missing the whole point of 119 00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 3: the movie and the actual story. Because he in Colorado, 120 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:02,560 Speaker 3: he convinced the judge, because he was representing it was 121 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 3: co counsel, and he convinced the judge to not keep 122 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 3: them in shackles, to wear street clothes, and give him 123 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 3: access to the law library, where he noticed that the 124 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 3: window was open. He jumped out the window of a 125 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:21,520 Speaker 3: Colorado courthouse. I mean, like, you can't make this stuff up. 126 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 1: You really can't make it up. 127 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 2: So much so that when I watched the film, I went, 128 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 2: this has got to be maybe a little bit you know, 129 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 2: theatrical here little dramatized, and the things in the courtroom. 130 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:38,320 Speaker 2: And then when I watched the doc I was aghast 131 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:41,760 Speaker 2: at how identical they were in that regard. 132 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, No, the thing I'm most there's very little invention 133 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:48,200 Speaker 3: in Extremely Wicked. You know, there's a few moments, you know, 134 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 3: hacksaw never happened, the dog barking at him and being 135 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:56,160 Speaker 3: freaked out never happened. Wait. 136 00:07:56,200 --> 00:07:58,240 Speaker 2: You know what's really funny as you're talking about the dog, 137 00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 2: when I watched the dock documentary with my dog, she 138 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:07,800 Speaker 2: kept barking at Ted when he would look in the lens. 139 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:11,560 Speaker 2: And this is my dog is like, she'll sleep all day, 140 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 2: you know, she's like not interested. 141 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 1: And I just went I was so creeped out by that. 142 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 3: Crazy. That's crazy. But those are those are a few. 143 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:23,400 Speaker 3: Those are a few character inventions and whatnot. But for 144 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:29,000 Speaker 3: the most part, you know, it's very authentic. And I 145 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:32,199 Speaker 3: tried to infuse a lot of real archival footage into 146 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:35,880 Speaker 3: the film, and that's been done to death now. But 147 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:38,560 Speaker 3: you know, not that I invented it, but it's it's 148 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:42,320 Speaker 3: now become very cliche to you know, have archival footage 149 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:45,320 Speaker 3: in your Crime. At the end of the show, in 150 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:48,600 Speaker 3: the credits, you see the crime, you see the real footage, 151 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:50,960 Speaker 3: and again I wasn't the first one to do it, 152 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 3: but I wasn't the eight hundredth person. Right, Yes, very copied. 153 00:08:56,280 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 3: Now I'm not saying copied by me, but it's a 154 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:00,280 Speaker 3: little it's a little over. It's a little over, but 155 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 3: you know, and and scenes if you compare archival footage 156 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:09,640 Speaker 3: of the scene where like Ted rips up the indictment 157 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:13,440 Speaker 3: in Florida and is giving to the Florida sheriff who 158 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:16,959 Speaker 3: brings him in, if you look at the actual archival 159 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:21,080 Speaker 3: foot it's you know, I really, I really a very 160 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:21,920 Speaker 3: authentic feeling. 161 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:25,360 Speaker 2: Yes, that is one of those things that I again thought, Oh, 162 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:28,440 Speaker 2: there's no way that they let him stand next to 163 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 2: the sheriff when he's stating, you know, the allegations or 164 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 2: what he's being arrested for. 165 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:37,080 Speaker 1: I just it's like unbelievable, which. 166 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:39,800 Speaker 3: Is another reason I say to those who say you're glamorizing, No, 167 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 3: this is the reality. Unfortunately, this is the truthful story. 168 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:46,600 Speaker 3: A charming, good looking guy. We can debate how good 169 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:49,600 Speaker 3: looking he is, but he had that impact on people 170 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:54,280 Speaker 3: that un likable and trusting, convinced judges to let them 171 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 3: represent themselves, convince judges not to be in shackles, so 172 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:01,240 Speaker 3: he jumped out of the courtroom. I convince young women 173 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:03,760 Speaker 3: to show up in that courtroom in droves, not because 174 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:06,360 Speaker 3: they're like they're like into serial killers, but they thought 175 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:07,040 Speaker 3: he was innocent. 176 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:08,520 Speaker 1: Yep, yeap. 177 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:12,079 Speaker 2: Did he ever, Bundy ever strike you as sincere? I mean, 178 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:16,120 Speaker 2: his arrogance is striking, and it's it's very apparent. But 179 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:19,240 Speaker 2: did he ever was there ever a moment where he 180 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:20,599 Speaker 2: seemed sincere? 181 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:24,680 Speaker 3: It's hard to say, you know, I think people like 182 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:27,920 Speaker 3: that literally have no empathy, and that's such a sick 183 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:31,600 Speaker 3: human quality when you lack empathy, and you can only 184 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 3: do that to other people if you are completely devoid 185 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:38,680 Speaker 3: of empathy. Yeah, and again, this woman, Dorothy Lewis, you know, 186 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 3: did a lot of you know, research on actually there's 187 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:47,559 Speaker 3: a physical piece of the brain responsible for empathy that's missing, 188 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:50,200 Speaker 3: and I believe, I believe in those theories. 189 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:51,680 Speaker 1: Yeah. 190 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 3: So it's hard to say any emotion other than self 191 00:10:55,440 --> 00:11:00,319 Speaker 3: preservation and self aggrandizement are the only emotions they've it's 192 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:06,440 Speaker 3: hard to say, yeah, they're sincere about anything. But I 193 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:10,960 Speaker 3: spent I believe in getting victim approval and spending time 194 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:14,080 Speaker 3: with victim. The story, so in fact, Lily Collins and 195 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:17,600 Speaker 3: I went out to I don't want to say where, 196 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:21,160 Speaker 3: you know, because I don't want to betray her comment. 197 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 3: But the real is Kendall, which is actually a pseudonym, 198 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 3: and her real daughter Mollie. You know, I wanted to 199 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:34,920 Speaker 3: make sure they were happy with the script. Lily had 200 00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:38,520 Speaker 3: never met a real person before that she played because 201 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 3: she played so. Lily and I took a trek to 202 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 3: see them and spent a couple of days and it 203 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:50,480 Speaker 3: was fascinating meeting. They gave us a handful of notes 204 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:52,319 Speaker 3: on the script that they felt were inaccurate. 205 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:53,560 Speaker 1: That has to be here. 206 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 2: I mean again, like no one, I'm sure this woman 207 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:59,439 Speaker 2: she you never really recover from this sort of experience, 208 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:03,760 Speaker 2: but I would hope and I believe that things like 209 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:08,320 Speaker 2: this have some at least a tiny bit of healing 210 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 2: for her, that there is care being taken. 211 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:15,439 Speaker 1: About it, and that you know, people feel her pain. 212 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:18,200 Speaker 3: I think they felt good about it. They came to set, 213 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:21,440 Speaker 3: you know, they wanted to come to set, and I said, 214 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:23,600 Speaker 3: well I would There's very few scenes that I think 215 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:26,440 Speaker 3: you should be around, maybe the happy days of the 216 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:30,000 Speaker 3: early courtship. So they came came for a couple of 217 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:32,240 Speaker 3: days and we shot some some of the more benign 218 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 3: stuff with them present when they were first meeting. 219 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:36,320 Speaker 1: Oh wow, oh. 220 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:38,200 Speaker 3: You were now I remember you were asking me whether 221 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:44,199 Speaker 3: he's sincere, sincere right and so whether or not? So, Oh, 222 00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:49,800 Speaker 3: that's right, that's the point. So Mollie, the daughter, who's 223 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:55,959 Speaker 3: now obviously an adult, has wonderful memories of her interactions 224 00:12:55,960 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 3: with Ted. He never creeped her out her. He thought 225 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:03,520 Speaker 3: she was he was the greatest, he was. She was 226 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:09,520 Speaker 3: a surrogate father. So whether or not she was objectifying 227 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:11,920 Speaker 3: something that didn't exist, or whether or not, there truly 228 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:13,640 Speaker 3: was a bond between the two. And he was a 229 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:16,080 Speaker 3: nice guy at times. I mean, that's the scary thing 230 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 3: about is that we'll never know literally can be the 231 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 3: people next door. I mean, John Wayne Gacy was you know, 232 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:27,160 Speaker 3: well liked in his neighborhood, through neighborhood parties, you know, 233 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:32,599 Speaker 3: was the local politic rep for the I forget what 234 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:33,959 Speaker 3: Chicago or some. 235 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:38,880 Speaker 1: Yeah they're all merging together for the church amber. 236 00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:43,320 Speaker 3: But but but Gaysey was you know well liked. Also 237 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:49,959 Speaker 3: you know, horrible what he did. Oh, it's all horrible. 238 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:52,200 Speaker 3: You can't rank the horror. 239 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:54,400 Speaker 1: You really can't rank the horror. 240 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 2: But what what do you what do you make of 241 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 2: his mother listening to the tapes, his the prison tapes 242 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:06,160 Speaker 2: and then saying, let's have apple pie and ice cream? 243 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 1: That completely baffles me. 244 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:18,160 Speaker 3: It's just a woman in denial, denial, mother in denial, 245 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:18,600 Speaker 3: you know. 246 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:28,280 Speaker 2: I mean, so, okay, let's talk about the Kyomega murders. 247 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:31,560 Speaker 2: They seem to be different from the earlier ones, the 248 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 2: earlier crimes because of just the sheer violence and the 249 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:37,880 Speaker 2: court scene and extremely wicked. 250 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 1: As you mentioned, it's really. 251 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:44,880 Speaker 2: We don't see the description of their It's like it's 252 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 2: almost unwatchable. It was one of the most uncomfortable and 253 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 2: I'm sure intentionally uncomfortable scenes in the film. 254 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:59,040 Speaker 1: So did something change with Ted by that point? 255 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 3: Or think? You know, I do believe that deep down, 256 00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:06,520 Speaker 3: these guys do want to ultimately get caught. And I 257 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:12,480 Speaker 3: think he was just, you know, the good guy. I'm 258 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:15,440 Speaker 3: going to convince you, I'm going to lure you. He 259 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:17,840 Speaker 3: just was. He was just kind of losing it and 260 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:20,840 Speaker 3: going on a killing spray. And I think I think 261 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:23,920 Speaker 3: he was because he was getting sloppier and messier and 262 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:30,520 Speaker 3: more psychologically fractured, because I think, you know, subconsciously he 263 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:31,880 Speaker 3: was hoping to get caught. 264 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:35,320 Speaker 1: Which is hoping to get caught, right, because I think they. 265 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:37,360 Speaker 3: All at the end of the day want want to 266 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 3: want it to end and be. 267 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:40,560 Speaker 1: Caught and want the attention. 268 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 2: Perhaps, So going back to the kind of theatrics in 269 00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:04,120 Speaker 2: the in the courtroom and the judge, So what is 270 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:07,960 Speaker 2: that about his kind of support of him, Like, I can't. 271 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:10,480 Speaker 2: I had such a hard time metabolizing all of that 272 00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 2: as as real like what was going on there? 273 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:17,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I think he I think he had a 274 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 3: he wanted to you know, not have any reversible error 275 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:28,320 Speaker 3: on appeal. And the issue of self representation is something that, okay, 276 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:31,800 Speaker 3: would be reversible error if somebody is somebody people, right, 277 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:35,800 Speaker 3: I mean reversible error just to explain, means that if 278 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:38,800 Speaker 3: a judge makes a mistake, that creates grounds for appeal. 279 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:42,720 Speaker 3: So he's being very cautious about not creating grounds for appeal. Okay, 280 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:46,160 Speaker 3: that winnable ground. I mean, you know, every many cases 281 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:48,960 Speaker 3: get appealed, but you know, winnable grounds for appeal. So 282 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:52,280 Speaker 3: I think I think that's part of it. I think 283 00:16:53,760 --> 00:17:00,760 Speaker 3: that era in courtrooms was a little looser in terms 284 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:03,480 Speaker 3: of security, and in terms of things you would expect 285 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:06,640 Speaker 3: to see now, I think that you're in the seventies, 286 00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:10,960 Speaker 3: there were a lot of new legal ideas being tested, 287 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:17,280 Speaker 3: and so doing things unusually was not unusual. For example, 288 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 3: for example, in New York State at this time it 289 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:24,359 Speaker 3: became and elsewhere, but particularly in New York, which has 290 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:29,159 Speaker 3: nothing to do with this case, not guilty by reason 291 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:32,360 Speaker 3: of insanity became a very popular defense, and a lot 292 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 3: of people were spared going to death row but instead 293 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 3: went to homes for the criminally insane, more experimentation. But 294 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:44,720 Speaker 3: that's why the story is so extraordinary, because there's that 295 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:52,879 Speaker 3: was all I mean, of course, the condensation and you know, 296 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:55,280 Speaker 3: a little bit of license, but basically a lot of 297 00:17:55,280 --> 00:18:00,480 Speaker 3: that dialogue is comes from courtroom transcripts. In fact, people 298 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:02,960 Speaker 3: think the title is weird, and you know, it is 299 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:05,160 Speaker 3: a little weird and doesn't quite roll off your tongue. 300 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:08,439 Speaker 3: Tongue extremely wicked, shockingly evil and vile. But that's what 301 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:11,800 Speaker 3: Judge Coward said to him when he in that shot, 302 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:14,679 Speaker 3: that I was talking about that extreme pushing. You know, 303 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:21,000 Speaker 3: your acts are extremely wicked, shockingly evil and vile. So 304 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:25,399 Speaker 3: the judge demonstrated that while he's going to give latitude 305 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:31,200 Speaker 3: to this guy, let him represent himself. You know, at 306 00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:34,000 Speaker 3: the end of the day, he knew what he had 307 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 3: to do, and he's right, sends the guy to death. 308 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:41,360 Speaker 2: Because it is it's like he's almost making a mockery 309 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:43,600 Speaker 2: of the you know, it's like his show. 310 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 1: It's just it's just unfathomable today. 311 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:51,399 Speaker 3: So after that would not happen today for sure. 312 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:56,160 Speaker 2: Right, yeah, yeah, after spending years of studying him. 313 00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 1: So do you just think that he was a psychopath? 314 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:06,400 Speaker 3: What's your well, yes, of course he's a psychopath, but worse. Uh, yeah, 315 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:09,680 Speaker 3: I know, he's you know, I'm fascinated by why people 316 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 3: do bad things, you know, in part because I had 317 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:16,040 Speaker 3: bad things done to me and I turned out to 318 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:19,439 Speaker 3: be a nice guy who makes films and raised daughters 319 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:23,680 Speaker 3: who go to the Colombian Mit. You know, I didn't 320 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:27,840 Speaker 3: turn into a psychopath. Fascinated why some people go off 321 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:29,600 Speaker 3: the edge and others don't. 322 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:33,240 Speaker 1: Do you think he felt remorse at all? Ever? 323 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:40,119 Speaker 3: No, no, No, I think Dahmer felt remorse, but I 324 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:44,760 Speaker 3: don't think Bundy felt remorse. Yeah, he lied up until 325 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:47,000 Speaker 3: the day he died, you know, and he just you 326 00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:49,040 Speaker 3: just can't do these things to people and. 327 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:51,560 Speaker 1: Have a lot of remorse, you know, right, right? 328 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:55,159 Speaker 2: Do you think in the final days before his execution 329 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:59,680 Speaker 2: when he he began confessing to the murders, do you 330 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:02,119 Speaker 2: think that he was finally telling the truth or was 331 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:04,119 Speaker 2: he just still manipulating people? 332 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:08,320 Speaker 3: Well? I think he was. I think both. He was 333 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:13,080 Speaker 3: giving up useful information in the hopes that he would 334 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:17,119 Speaker 3: he could prolong his life. Self very important to. 335 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:22,359 Speaker 1: Him, yep. I mean, I think that's probably for most narcissists. 336 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 1: That's a key piece. 337 00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:28,760 Speaker 2: So after everything that you've learned about him, what's this 338 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:31,280 Speaker 2: single you've sort of I think I know what you're 339 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:34,520 Speaker 2: going to say, but I'll ask you anyway. The single 340 00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:37,720 Speaker 2: biggest lesson that people should take away from the Ted 341 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:39,800 Speaker 2: Bundy story, Yeah. 342 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:42,120 Speaker 3: I mean, I hate to be repetitive, but I made 343 00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:46,639 Speaker 3: the movie because my daughters didn't know who he was, 344 00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:50,119 Speaker 3: and I thought they should know. The basic lesson of 345 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:55,159 Speaker 3: a Ted Bundy is that you know, just because people 346 00:20:57,160 --> 00:20:59,399 Speaker 3: look and act a certain way, he should not just 347 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:02,679 Speaker 3: give them your trust. Trust needs to be hard earned. 348 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:06,760 Speaker 3: And the most important lesson is that people who do 349 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:11,520 Speaker 3: evil in this world are the people you least expect. 350 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:15,719 Speaker 3: And most often trust, not the guy who emerges from 351 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:18,600 Speaker 3: the shadow and you're like, oh God, I gotta run 352 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:21,600 Speaker 3: because that's an evil person. That's not how evil works. 353 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:24,280 Speaker 3: Whether you know. I did a show about Bernie Madoff. 354 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 3: You know, he came across as very o buncular, like 355 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:34,080 Speaker 3: a great guy, but he was taking widows money and 356 00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:38,520 Speaker 3: just taking it in a Ponzi scheme. You know, he 357 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:42,360 Speaker 3: bankrupted Eli Vizl, a Holocaust survivor. I mean, he did 358 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:45,200 Speaker 3: such horrible things, but you would think he's you know, 359 00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:49,399 Speaker 3: your great uncle who just is so caring and loving, 360 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:52,439 Speaker 3: you know, right. You know, the Catholic Church obviously has 361 00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:58,200 Speaker 3: a massive problem with you know, you know, child sex abuse. 362 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:01,520 Speaker 3: I mean, can you think of anything more evil then 363 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:06,280 Speaker 3: somebody in that trusted position doing anything remotely like that 364 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:09,400 Speaker 3: to a child. I mean, we want to take comfort 365 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:13,520 Speaker 3: in the fact that serial killers look a certain way 366 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:16,200 Speaker 3: and they're just you can just spot them a mile away, 367 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:19,639 Speaker 3: like you know, the Buffalo Bill character in Silence of 368 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 3: the Lambs or whatever. But people who do evil are 369 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:26,960 Speaker 3: often you know, Richard I did a show called The 370 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:30,560 Speaker 3: Times Square Killer. Richard Cottingham was you know, a mild 371 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:33,320 Speaker 3: manner computer executive who had lots of friends and went 372 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:36,119 Speaker 3: out drinking with his buddies, and no one could believe 373 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 3: that he spent years going to Times Square when Times 374 00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:42,560 Speaker 3: Square in New York City was like the den of 375 00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:47,800 Speaker 3: iniquity of section, you know, every every o their store 376 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:51,720 Speaker 3: was a pornography movie theater and. 377 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:54,200 Speaker 1: Right before it was Disney like it is now. 378 00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:57,919 Speaker 3: You know, Times Square in the mid seventies was you know, 379 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:02,240 Speaker 3: just set, you know, a den of iniquity of sex 380 00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:05,680 Speaker 3: and drugs. And he would go there and pray upon 381 00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:09,000 Speaker 3: the marginalized sex workers there that nobody cared about, and 382 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:12,199 Speaker 3: the police weren't really investigating because the police were just 383 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:15,800 Speaker 3: overwhelmed with crime in the New York in the seventies, 384 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:18,760 Speaker 3: and they used to call it fear City, you know, 385 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:21,040 Speaker 3: because there was just so much crime and not enough 386 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:23,760 Speaker 3: police because New York was in a financial crisis. And 387 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:28,280 Speaker 3: this Richard Cottingham, who only recently you know, was tagged 388 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:33,359 Speaker 3: with some new killings. You know, Richard Cottingham preyed upon 389 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:36,359 Speaker 3: these women but went home to a normal house, you know, 390 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:40,640 Speaker 3: with a normal family and didn't look creepy and had 391 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:42,440 Speaker 3: you know, the Gilgo Beach. 392 00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:44,320 Speaker 1: Killer, same thing same thing. 393 00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:48,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the nature of these people. They walk among us. 394 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:51,879 Speaker 3: They could be your teacher or your friend, your neighbor. 395 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:55,720 Speaker 3: That's the scary lesson of bundant Joe. 396 00:23:55,760 --> 00:24:00,399 Speaker 2: This has been just so fascinating to me and I 397 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:07,879 Speaker 2: deeply appreciate the work that you do and the documentaries specifically, 398 00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:11,200 Speaker 2: and this movie extremely wicked, shocking, the evil and vile 399 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:17,600 Speaker 2: is really really powerful and it's still streaming on Netflix as. 400 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:21,280 Speaker 3: His Conversations with a Killer, which is the Ted Bundy. 401 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:26,320 Speaker 2: Tapes, yes as well, and they're they're great to watch, 402 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:29,879 Speaker 2: sort of, you know, one after another, which is what 403 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:32,680 Speaker 2: I did because it's just fascinating. 404 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:37,560 Speaker 1: You did a beautiful job on the narrative. So it's 405 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:39,480 Speaker 1: been a pleasure meeting you. Thank you so much for 406 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:40,439 Speaker 1: taking this time. 407 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:51,639 Speaker 3: Pleasure was mine.