WEBVTT - Labor of Love with M. Night Shyamalan | Development Hell 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:15.796 Pushkin. 0:00:20.356 --> 0:00:27.156 I've had such a exceptionally curated career. Every movie I've 0:00:27.196 --> 0:00:32.996 ever written since eighteen has been greenlit to be made 0:00:33.036 --> 0:00:35.556 into a movie. You've seen everything I've written, you know, 0:00:36.676 --> 0:00:40.716 except for this one that we're going to talk about. 0:00:42.236 --> 0:00:50.036 So it's interesting, always a twist. Yeah, Welcome back to 0:00:50.116 --> 0:00:54.356 Development Hell, our mini series about the lost scripts of Hollywood. Today, 0:00:54.396 --> 0:00:56.956 I'm talking with m Night Shyamalan, one of the best 0:00:57.036 --> 0:01:02.836 known filmmakers of the past generation suspense fillers and supernatural psychodrama. 0:01:03.316 --> 0:01:06.916 You know whose movies I'm sure, Unbreakable, the Sixth Sense, 0:01:07.436 --> 0:01:12.396 Split Glass, something like fifteen films in the last thirty years, 0:01:12.516 --> 0:01:16.916 which collectively have grossed billions of dollars. M Night Shamalan's 0:01:16.916 --> 0:01:19.876 stories have haunted a lot of people over the years. 0:01:20.596 --> 0:01:29.436 This episode is about the story that haunted m Night Shauma. 0:01:29.556 --> 0:01:31.956 We've talked a lot so far in a series about 0:01:31.996 --> 0:01:34.636 movies that never got made because there was something wrong 0:01:34.676 --> 0:01:37.716 with the story, or because someone on the outside had 0:01:37.756 --> 0:01:41.396 a problem with the script. This episode is about none 0:01:41.436 --> 0:01:43.716 of those things. There is nothing at all wrong with 0:01:43.756 --> 0:01:47.956 the story Shyamalan has never told, and maybe that's why 0:01:47.956 --> 0:01:48.596 he never told. 0:01:55.636 --> 0:01:58.236 There was the first real script that I felt kind 0:01:58.236 --> 0:02:01.676 of lightning bolt inspiration that came to me. 0:02:02.036 --> 0:02:04.596 I was twenty two and i'd just. 0:02:04.596 --> 0:02:07.476 Been married, just got married, and I wrote a kind 0:02:07.476 --> 0:02:10.556 of a love story, Labor of Love, and I was 0:02:10.556 --> 0:02:13.756 writing it, and I wrote it because I almost remember 0:02:13.756 --> 0:02:16.316 everywhere I wrote it, because it was such a special 0:02:16.716 --> 0:02:21.596 experience of writing. By that time, that was my third 0:02:22.156 --> 0:02:27.716 third feature that i'd written. I had made made a 0:02:27.756 --> 0:02:29.356 movie already in India. 0:02:29.476 --> 0:02:32.156 Tell me, tell me this a little bit about the story. 0:02:32.356 --> 0:02:33.756 What was Labor of Love about? 0:02:34.716 --> 0:02:34.876 You know? 0:02:34.956 --> 0:02:38.356 Labor of Love is essentially a story about an older 0:02:38.436 --> 0:02:43.916 couple and the wife saying, hey, it's an anniversary and 0:02:43.996 --> 0:02:46.236 he forgets and all of this stuff and they've been 0:02:46.236 --> 0:02:49.276 together a long time, and she's just like, you know, 0:02:49.716 --> 0:02:52.436 essentially expresses I do all these little things for you 0:02:52.516 --> 0:02:55.916 our whole life, and you don't. And I'm not sure 0:02:56.036 --> 0:02:58.436 what you want from you know, I'm not sure you 0:02:58.476 --> 0:03:00.836 love me. You know, I'm not one hundred percent sure. 0:03:00.876 --> 0:03:04.716 And that's not a great feeling, you know. And he's baffled, 0:03:04.796 --> 0:03:07.036 right as all guys are just baffled at this, And. 0:03:08.916 --> 0:03:11.436 I mean, what do you mean? I mean, I mean 0:03:11.516 --> 0:03:14.156 what do you want me? I love you goes. 0:03:13.996 --> 0:03:16.396 To work every morning? Who goes to What are you 0:03:16.756 --> 0:03:20.356 doing that for? Okay? Good, good, I get it. 0:03:22.116 --> 0:03:23.556 She I don't want to say too much of it 0:03:23.596 --> 0:03:26.356 because I tend to think of these things as magic. 0:03:26.676 --> 0:03:35.076 And yeah, and she she passes away unexpectedly and very tragically, 0:03:35.796 --> 0:03:38.956 and before she died she said, he said, uh, you know, 0:03:38.956 --> 0:03:40.116 what do you want me to do to prove my 0:03:40.156 --> 0:03:42.356 love to you? You want me to, you know, swim 0:03:42.356 --> 0:03:44.716 across an ocean, or climb a mountain or walk across 0:03:44.756 --> 0:03:45.556 the United States? 0:03:45.556 --> 0:03:46.276 What do you want me to do? 0:03:46.396 --> 0:03:48.876 She's like, just walk to the store and get me 0:03:48.956 --> 0:03:50.956 something on your own, because you were thinking, you know, 0:03:51.036 --> 0:03:54.236 something small like that. Anyway, she passes away. He's an 0:03:54.236 --> 0:03:57.076 older man. He's in a you know, late sixties seventies 0:03:57.196 --> 0:04:00.996 kind of thing, out of shape, and he's so devastated 0:04:01.236 --> 0:04:03.836 he makes a crazy decision to start walking across the 0:04:03.916 --> 0:04:06.756 United States for nothing else but just to show his 0:04:06.836 --> 0:04:10.076 wife who's passed away, in case she can see. And 0:04:10.716 --> 0:04:13.836 this isn't I wrote this in nineteen ninety four, right, 0:04:13.956 --> 0:04:19.196 so no cell phones, no nothing, no internet, And he 0:04:19.276 --> 0:04:23.316 just begins this track and it's a kind of like 0:04:23.396 --> 0:04:25.316 a vision quest a little bit. He starts to think 0:04:25.316 --> 0:04:27.476 about his life and his time with his wife and 0:04:27.556 --> 0:04:30.436 from when they were kids, and he's physically in threat 0:04:30.476 --> 0:04:34.076 as he's doing this, and slowly the country starts to 0:04:34.116 --> 0:04:36.156 get to hear about this guy, and they're trying to 0:04:36.276 --> 0:04:39.236 urge him do it to get there and it's so crazy, 0:04:39.236 --> 0:04:40.076 Why are you doing this? 0:04:40.116 --> 0:04:40.836 Why are you doing this? 0:04:40.956 --> 0:04:43.876 And then the country kind of gets on board with 0:04:43.996 --> 0:04:48.556 the feeling of doing something irrational to show your love 0:04:48.716 --> 0:04:49.876 for the person that. 0:04:49.796 --> 0:04:50.516 You care about. 0:04:51.076 --> 0:04:52.476 And I'm not going to tell you the ending, but 0:04:52.556 --> 0:04:56.956 it's really poignant, the idea of just doing something so 0:04:56.996 --> 0:04:58.276 the other person can hear you. 0:04:58.756 --> 0:05:03.556 So you're twenty two, you're very much in love. You've 0:05:03.596 --> 0:05:06.756 just married your wife, who you've known for how long 0:05:06.756 --> 0:05:07.396 at that point. 0:05:08.196 --> 0:05:12.236 I met when I was eighteen, so owner for four 0:05:12.316 --> 0:05:13.036 years at that point. 0:05:13.236 --> 0:05:18.676 So the and in this period of love struck youth. 0:05:19.636 --> 0:05:22.716 When you are, you know, in love with your young wife, 0:05:22.996 --> 0:05:27.836 you write a story about an older couple, Yes, where 0:05:28.316 --> 0:05:31.676 the question of the man's devotion to the to his 0:05:31.756 --> 0:05:34.676 wife is in doubt. Yes, and he had In other words, 0:05:35.236 --> 0:05:37.796 I thought you were going to say I wrote this 0:05:37.876 --> 0:05:39.636 at twenty two. I was just married a mention love. 0:05:39.796 --> 0:05:43.916 It's about this young couple who embark you. You jump back, 0:05:43.996 --> 0:05:47.476 you jump forward forty years when you start looking back. 0:05:48.396 --> 0:05:50.636 Yes, so yeah, in the period. 0:05:50.356 --> 0:05:54.036 Where you are of greatest infatuation, your impulse is to 0:05:54.076 --> 0:05:57.596 go to the end of the relationship and work backwards. 0:05:58.276 --> 0:05:58.556 Yeah. 0:05:58.676 --> 0:06:05.236 I mean, I think I've always been driven by familial nightmares, 0:06:06.636 --> 0:06:11.916 you know, the sanctity of the family being jeopardized. You know, 0:06:12.076 --> 0:06:16.756 later it changed into aliens and ghosts and you name it, 0:06:16.796 --> 0:06:21.756 But ultimately it's still about families and whether whether they 0:06:21.796 --> 0:06:22.356 can survive. 0:06:22.956 --> 0:06:25.916 What is it about you at a period of young love, 0:06:25.996 --> 0:06:29.956 when you're already thinking about the kind of not the 0:06:29.996 --> 0:06:32.476 dissolution of love, but the final stage of it. You 0:06:32.876 --> 0:06:36.276 why would you jump ahead? What's it? No? 0:06:36.396 --> 0:06:39.236 I guess I guess you're thinking about your life and 0:06:39.276 --> 0:06:42.076 what you wanted to be and where it could go wrong. 0:06:43.116 --> 0:06:44.916 And maybe I was thinking about what is it? 0:06:44.996 --> 0:06:46.716 What is it? What do I want this to be at. 0:06:46.636 --> 0:06:49.356 The end of the journey, you know, forty years from now, 0:06:49.396 --> 0:06:53.716 fifty years from now. I hope, I hope I've lived 0:06:53.716 --> 0:06:56.316 the life the right way and of course there's going 0:06:56.356 --> 0:06:58.076 to be a lot of mistakes along the way. But 0:06:58.276 --> 0:07:01.356 I don't have fears like the other people have fears 0:07:01.356 --> 0:07:02.996 in the sense of, like I knew I was going 0:07:03.036 --> 0:07:06.396 to marry the second I matter, you know, like those things. 0:07:06.516 --> 0:07:10.436 I fear getting a call that's something bad happened, you know, 0:07:10.596 --> 0:07:13.716 And that's very prevalent and still thirty years later. 0:07:14.036 --> 0:07:17.996 Yeah, but you're asking yourself the question of what is 0:07:18.036 --> 0:07:22.996 the most tragic outcome of young love? Is that what 0:07:23.276 --> 0:07:26.876 is what you've described is that one one party loves 0:07:26.956 --> 0:07:30.236 and the other party doesn't realize they're being loved. You 0:07:30.276 --> 0:07:35.596 put your finger on something that's like it does a 0:07:35.716 --> 0:07:38.236 deeply resonant anxiety. 0:07:38.396 --> 0:07:41.156 It is I probably fund the dynamic of me and 0:07:41.196 --> 0:07:47.036 my wife that you know, she married a dreamer, someone 0:07:47.076 --> 0:07:51.556 who's completely content to stare out in an empty room 0:07:51.916 --> 0:07:55.076 and just do that all day long and think about 0:07:55.116 --> 0:08:01.196 an imaginary world with imaginary people and feel fulfilled. And 0:08:01.236 --> 0:08:03.756 she's like, well, I'm right here, you know, what about 0:08:03.836 --> 0:08:05.836 what about the real life where you're. 0:08:05.716 --> 0:08:08.436 We're living, you know, And. 0:08:07.556 --> 0:08:10.276 And so the struggle has been you know, I've heard 0:08:10.316 --> 0:08:12.916 all of those stories of you know, from you know, 0:08:12.996 --> 0:08:15.476 f Scott Fitzgerald to you name it. You know all 0:08:15.556 --> 0:08:18.916 our heroes and how they struggled with their personal life 0:08:19.076 --> 0:08:26.516 versus their artistry. Is it a one or the other equation? 0:08:27.436 --> 0:08:29.396 We sometimes it feels that way, and for a lot 0:08:29.436 --> 0:08:31.916 of people it feels that way. I've tried to see 0:08:31.916 --> 0:08:36.076 if they can be feed each other and it feeds 0:08:36.236 --> 0:08:40.676 the movies, the feeling of love for your wife or 0:08:40.676 --> 0:08:43.436 for your kids or you know, and what does that mean? 0:08:43.476 --> 0:08:44.556 How can you imbue it? 0:08:44.596 --> 0:08:46.796 And you guys feel it when you see the movies 0:08:46.836 --> 0:08:49.116 and really the stories that I mean. 0:08:49.476 --> 0:08:52.796 And the hardest thing to explain to your spouse in 0:08:52.836 --> 0:08:56.076 that instance is that to them you seem inaccessible in 0:08:56.196 --> 0:09:00.716 that dreaming. But from your perspective, I'm putting words in 0:09:00.756 --> 0:09:03.436 your mouth, but there's a certain amount of commonality between 0:09:03.476 --> 0:09:06.916 the way I approachest the way that you do. What's 0:09:06.996 --> 0:09:11.116 hard to explain is that not being inaccessible and in fact, 0:09:11.676 --> 0:09:14.076 the relationship we have with our loved one is what 0:09:14.156 --> 0:09:15.596 makes our dreaming possible. 0:09:16.156 --> 0:09:16.476 M hm. 0:09:16.916 --> 0:09:21.636 Right there. They're the engine of it. They're not outside 0:09:21.636 --> 0:09:25.516 of it. It's their presence and support and structure and 0:09:25.596 --> 0:09:29.956 love and whatever that permits us to wander off and 0:09:30.436 --> 0:09:35.636 in our imagination and feel find comfort and joy and 0:09:35.716 --> 0:09:37.476 all of that. I don't know, it's like that. It's 0:09:37.476 --> 0:09:40.476 a very hard thing to to explain to someone that 0:09:40.516 --> 0:09:44.156 they're that our inner lives are contingent on someone from 0:09:44.196 --> 0:09:45.276 the out on the outside. 0:09:45.516 --> 0:09:48.756 Yes, you know, So finding love and then building a 0:09:48.876 --> 0:09:53.316 career from there felt felt the right, the right building blocks, 0:09:53.396 --> 0:09:56.996 and so that movie was the beginning of that. You know, 0:09:57.036 --> 0:09:59.836 when writing this movie, Labor of Love, it was it 0:09:59.956 --> 0:10:02.796 was coming from such an interesting place, and I was 0:10:02.956 --> 0:10:05.596 writing ahead of my abilities at that point. 0:10:05.636 --> 0:10:08.796 It was just kind of going by this inspiration of love. 0:10:08.836 --> 0:10:10.676 I think, what do you mean by writing ahead of 0:10:10.676 --> 0:10:11.476 your abilities? 0:10:12.196 --> 0:10:14.596 You know, I didn't have as much craft at that time. 0:10:14.756 --> 0:10:17.716 This is oftentimes your career is an equation of craft 0:10:17.796 --> 0:10:23.676 and inspiration, and so lacking in craft and at twenty two, 0:10:23.836 --> 0:10:26.916 but the inspiration was out of ten. You know that 0:10:27.396 --> 0:10:30.356 feeling when I was writing it, what this feels beautiful, 0:10:30.476 --> 0:10:33.356 This feels this feels lovely. You know, I love this 0:10:33.436 --> 0:10:36.036 feeling how it's coming out and how I can see 0:10:36.076 --> 0:10:40.756 the characters and in retrospect now thirty years later, can 0:10:40.796 --> 0:10:43.596 see that. You know, I was really listening to the 0:10:43.676 --> 0:10:47.636 characters almost like a novelist, and following it. And so 0:10:47.676 --> 0:10:51.556 the end result is I wrote the screenplay that ended 0:10:51.636 --> 0:10:55.396 up becoming a bidding War from my parents' guest bedroom 0:10:55.436 --> 0:10:58.676 where me and my wife were living in the guest bedroom. 0:10:58.796 --> 0:11:01.156 The best bedroom was pink. It was for my sister. 0:11:01.596 --> 0:11:04.156 Was It was just a you know, we had to 0:11:04.156 --> 0:11:08.396 get out of here kind of feeling. And this script 0:11:08.476 --> 0:11:10.076 went out and there was the bidding war and someone 0:11:10.116 --> 0:11:12.036 offered this amount of money and then that amount of money, 0:11:12.036 --> 0:11:12.636 and it was crazy. 0:11:12.636 --> 0:11:13.116 And I was a kid. 0:11:13.156 --> 0:11:15.196 I'd run down and I'd be like, mom, they offered 0:11:15.236 --> 0:11:16.556 this amount of money. 0:11:16.796 --> 0:11:17.516 It's crazy. 0:11:19.196 --> 0:11:22.196 But I only directed this little movie in India, and 0:11:22.356 --> 0:11:26.036 they saw it as a big, big movie. And this 0:11:26.196 --> 0:11:29.636 was back in an era of Hollywood where the entire 0:11:29.716 --> 0:11:33.756 system was geared at original movies. The system was built 0:11:33.796 --> 0:11:38.916 to nurture original movies, and the spec screenplay markets, screenplay 0:11:38.996 --> 0:11:43.356 is done on speculation was the kind of gold rush, 0:11:43.676 --> 0:11:46.636 and so if there was an incredible screenplay that came out, 0:11:46.836 --> 0:11:49.036 everyone would read it immediately and it would go in 0:11:49.076 --> 0:11:51.236 this bidding war because that was the food that was 0:11:51.276 --> 0:11:53.876 feeding the engine at that time to the movie theaters, 0:11:54.676 --> 0:11:57.196 and so I was luckily kind of grew up in 0:11:57.196 --> 0:11:59.756 an era where what I love to do, which is 0:11:59.796 --> 0:12:04.796 original movies, was really celebrated and promoted, and so everyone 0:12:04.836 --> 0:12:06.796 bit on it and we sold the tunch of Fox. 0:12:07.796 --> 0:12:09.796 You know, I was attached to direct, and then I 0:12:09.836 --> 0:12:13.716 flew out and I put on my graduation suit, which 0:12:13.756 --> 0:12:15.356 I didn't because I didn't have many suits, so I 0:12:15.356 --> 0:12:18.996 wore my old suit and then they they listened to 0:12:19.036 --> 0:12:21.356 me about how I would direct a movie, and then 0:12:21.436 --> 0:12:26.756 they subsequently fired me off the movie. So it was devastated. 0:12:26.996 --> 0:12:28.716 Just absolutely What did. 0:12:28.596 --> 0:12:32.236 You do wrong in your pitch to be a directly? 0:12:32.876 --> 0:12:35.956 That's really interesting a question I would say. I wasn't 0:12:35.996 --> 0:12:39.116 a director yet. I had more practice at writing than directing. 0:12:39.196 --> 0:12:41.516 And of course, sitting in a room telling a chairman 0:12:41.596 --> 0:12:44.076 of a studio how you'd make a film, and they're 0:12:44.116 --> 0:12:46.756 asking certain questions, and you know, I don't know if 0:12:46.756 --> 0:12:49.116 I had a chance at all, you know, before I 0:12:49.156 --> 0:12:49.756 walked in there. 0:12:49.756 --> 0:12:55.076 In retrospect night, you're now hold fifty three. Yeah, you 0:12:55.116 --> 0:12:59.916 look at fifty three, you look at thirty, at twenty two, 0:13:00.116 --> 0:13:01.396 you must have looked twelve. 0:13:01.876 --> 0:13:04.276 You're absolutely correct, you're absolutely correct. 0:13:04.236 --> 0:13:07.156 You know what's going to give you fifty million dollars 0:13:07.196 --> 0:13:09.956 to direct a movie when you it's like a twelve year. 0:13:09.876 --> 0:13:12.756 Old Yeah, and I'm in this ill fitting suit which 0:13:12.796 --> 0:13:15.156 makes me even look younger because you're liked you wear 0:13:15.196 --> 0:13:17.876 your big brother's suit or whatever it was. 0:13:18.476 --> 0:13:19.636 I remember the feeling. 0:13:19.676 --> 0:13:22.916 I can remember the feeling pitching it to the chairman 0:13:23.076 --> 0:13:26.236 and then the heads of the studio and going, I'm 0:13:26.316 --> 0:13:31.156 not I don't I don't believe what I'm saying, and 0:13:31.236 --> 0:13:33.036 I'm guessing. I was like basically, I was like, I 0:13:33.316 --> 0:13:35.636 don't know. I'm gonna learn, you know as I do this, 0:13:35.676 --> 0:13:38.316 because I can see it in my head, you know, 0:13:38.436 --> 0:13:40.116 so I'll I'll learn. 0:13:40.236 --> 0:13:42.916 And they took me. I was very painful. 0:13:43.116 --> 0:13:45.716 Then I ended up, you know, they talked me into 0:13:45.796 --> 0:13:48.156 kind of pay rewrite it for some other a list 0:13:48.196 --> 0:13:51.076 directors of that time. So I had a chance to 0:13:51.116 --> 0:13:53.156 be in the room at some you know at that time, 0:13:53.316 --> 0:13:56.676 the top directors, and they would say do this, do that, 0:13:56.836 --> 0:13:59.356 and I just couldn't. I would rewrite it and it 0:13:59.356 --> 0:14:03.276 would get worse in retrospect, some kind of mojo curse 0:14:03.316 --> 0:14:07.236 I put on it, and it could never get it never, 0:14:07.316 --> 0:14:10.916 It could never bloom into So there was lots of 0:14:11.076 --> 0:14:14.116 directors that try, two or three directors that tried. So 0:14:14.836 --> 0:14:17.836 what was really weird about this movie represented some kind 0:14:17.876 --> 0:14:22.036 of you know, connection with the universe. And I think 0:14:22.076 --> 0:14:24.276 for a little bit I thought that was a one 0:14:24.356 --> 0:14:26.796 off and that that's never going to happen again. 0:14:26.836 --> 0:14:27.636 And that was the fear. 0:14:28.156 --> 0:14:33.436 That screenplay just became something of a mythic thing for me, like, oh, 0:14:33.476 --> 0:14:34.956 I'll never get that back again. 0:14:36.476 --> 0:14:40.516 M night. Shyamalan writes his masterpiece and then he's haunted 0:14:40.556 --> 0:14:58.116 by it more after the break. Wait, so what's the 0:14:58.156 --> 0:15:01.156 next stage in the saga of Labor of Love? 0:15:01.716 --> 0:15:05.756 So sixth sense happens, right? I wrote it, you know 0:15:05.756 --> 0:15:09.876 a few years later and wonderful outcome. Everyone wanted to 0:15:09.916 --> 0:15:12.716 make movies with me, and I said to Fox, I 0:15:12.716 --> 0:15:14.196 would love to have that screen light back. 0:15:14.236 --> 0:15:16.036 They said, oh, do you want to make Labor of Love? 0:15:16.556 --> 0:15:20.036 And I said, well, no, I'm thinking about making another movie, 0:15:20.116 --> 0:15:23.156 which was Unbreakable that I was writing at that time 0:15:23.716 --> 0:15:26.276 about comic books, even though no one had making comic 0:15:26.276 --> 0:15:28.596 book movies, and I thought no one would ever see 0:15:28.636 --> 0:15:31.436 this movie. But it was something that interest me and 0:15:31.556 --> 0:15:33.516 I said, you know, I was really into genre. 0:15:33.596 --> 0:15:33.836 Now. 0:15:33.916 --> 0:15:37.596 I was like, okay, genre is my way. Labor of 0:15:37.676 --> 0:15:42.396 Love is very it's a very emotional movie. I think 0:15:42.436 --> 0:15:45.116 I have that as my base tendency to be emotional, 0:15:45.276 --> 0:15:50.996 and I think until I found genre to balance it, 0:15:51.156 --> 0:15:53.436 I was too much for people because like I start 0:15:53.436 --> 0:15:55.876 at a nine, like at emotion. If you and I 0:15:55.916 --> 0:15:58.436 are talking over drinks about time, I'll be I'll be like, 0:15:58.956 --> 0:16:03.596 I'll be already emotionally to be you know there. And 0:16:03.676 --> 0:16:06.916 I think genre helped me balance that. You know, you 0:16:06.996 --> 0:16:08.996 have to meet the audience where they are. This is 0:16:09.116 --> 0:16:12.756 something I learned in my mid twenties. When you're telling 0:16:12.796 --> 0:16:16.556 a story, meet them where they are and don't lecture 0:16:16.596 --> 0:16:19.556 them and demand that they come to you. You come 0:16:19.596 --> 0:16:23.436 to them, so you start tonally where they are. So 0:16:23.476 --> 0:16:26.796 it's a tough world and we have a little we 0:16:26.916 --> 0:16:30.636 have cynicism. That's how we get through our lives, you know. 0:16:30.676 --> 0:16:35.276 We balance that to protect our software parts. And genre 0:16:35.396 --> 0:16:39.196 does that. It comes in and it balances. I have 0:16:39.356 --> 0:16:43.196 this feeling about movie making, our art that it has 0:16:43.236 --> 0:16:46.516 to have the right balance of light and dark, and 0:16:46.916 --> 0:16:49.756 that's when it rings true. The love of a mother 0:16:49.836 --> 0:16:54.196 to a child has a selfish component. You have to have, 0:16:54.556 --> 0:16:58.276 you know, a controlling component, then it rings true. There's 0:16:58.316 --> 0:17:01.516 also the beauty, the pure love you know, of a 0:17:01.596 --> 0:17:03.996 parent to a child. But if I can get both 0:17:04.036 --> 0:17:06.676 things in there, then it rings true and you start 0:17:06.716 --> 0:17:09.916 to see yourself in it. I think genre allows me 0:17:10.036 --> 0:17:13.796 to show you that the light side, you know. Because 0:17:13.796 --> 0:17:16.556 of that, I can go very dark. I mean I've 0:17:16.676 --> 0:17:20.796 killed off more protagonist than anybody. This is like dark stuff, 0:17:21.796 --> 0:17:24.796 but that's because underneath, I do feel the universe is 0:17:24.836 --> 0:17:27.796 a benevolent place, and I feel that from that. 0:17:27.876 --> 0:17:29.636 So genre has helped me balance things. 0:17:30.116 --> 0:17:35.316 Is it fair to say that genre, particularly horror or supernatural, 0:17:36.156 --> 0:17:39.396 it lowers the stakes in a certain way. What does 0:17:39.436 --> 0:17:41.876 it allow you to? What's what's the best way to 0:17:42.316 --> 0:17:45.796 describe the way it It's it's. 0:17:45.676 --> 0:17:47.636 Protective when you get really down to it. 0:17:47.676 --> 0:17:52.596 I'm just this sentimental dude that's overly earnest. When I 0:17:52.676 --> 0:17:55.236 speak to people, they think it's gamesmanship. 0:17:55.276 --> 0:17:55.596 It's not. 0:17:55.836 --> 0:17:59.116 There's no game at all. I'm I love it, I 0:17:59.156 --> 0:18:03.036 hate it. I I'm terrified. I'll tell you openly, you 0:18:03.076 --> 0:18:08.236 know everything, and when we do things like comedy and 0:18:08.316 --> 0:18:11.436 all this stuff. Those are ways to protect ourselves which 0:18:12.196 --> 0:18:15.396 I understand and I can use as well. And genre 0:18:15.596 --> 0:18:18.836 is if I can show you edgy dark things and 0:18:18.916 --> 0:18:20.876 show you because I do have an agi dark side 0:18:20.916 --> 0:18:24.196 as well. I just deploy it at the right times 0:18:24.676 --> 0:18:27.996 that allows me in the in the balance of things 0:18:27.996 --> 0:18:30.516 in the audience's eyes and their emotional journey. 0:18:30.676 --> 0:18:31.436 It's earned. 0:18:31.516 --> 0:18:35.036 Then when I do the car scene in sixth sense 0:18:35.076 --> 0:18:38.236 with the mom and the child, you know I've earned 0:18:38.276 --> 0:18:42.956 it by by by titillating them and scaring them in 0:18:42.996 --> 0:18:45.356 a certain way. There's a balancing act that goes on 0:18:45.396 --> 0:18:49.636 which I think is important for me to acknowledge that 0:18:49.756 --> 0:18:53.836 this is a conversation with the audience, that it's not 0:18:53.956 --> 0:18:54.676 just a lecture. 0:18:55.356 --> 0:18:58.836 Yeah, labor of love is are you saying there's there's 0:18:58.836 --> 0:19:01.636 no supernatural It is a straight. 0:19:03.036 --> 0:19:06.156 Pretty much? Yeah, just a straight you say pretty much, 0:19:08.516 --> 0:19:09.876 pretty much? Pretty much. 0:19:09.876 --> 0:19:12.516 The reason I say pretty much is there's a tiny 0:19:12.556 --> 0:19:16.636 bit of spirituality and love, and so that I do 0:19:16.716 --> 0:19:20.156 represent that in there, that things are bound a bit, 0:19:20.436 --> 0:19:25.676 that there's some inspirational, magical things that happen sometimes you 0:19:25.716 --> 0:19:29.796 know that's related to love. So that's all. But there 0:19:29.836 --> 0:19:31.156 is no genre in it. 0:19:31.236 --> 0:19:31.716 That's we were. 0:19:33.196 --> 0:19:37.116 This opportunity came, I would say, you know, fifteen years 0:19:37.196 --> 0:19:41.236 later where I could make that movie with literally the 0:19:41.236 --> 0:19:45.116 best actor in the world and the person that I 0:19:45.156 --> 0:19:47.396 would want to make a movie with more than anybody. 0:19:47.956 --> 0:19:51.116 It was being squeezed between another movie that I was 0:19:51.156 --> 0:19:54.876 making for a big studio, and I made the wrong 0:19:54.916 --> 0:19:59.836 decision and I didn't make it. And when I think 0:19:59.876 --> 0:20:04.836 back on it now, knowing me and who is the actor, well, 0:20:04.876 --> 0:20:10.196 I don't want to say just because just because, because 0:20:10.236 --> 0:20:14.436 it's more about the emotional stuff that we're talking about 0:20:14.516 --> 0:20:16.716 rather than the kind of the titillation of it, of 0:20:16.756 --> 0:20:19.756 the names and things like that, if we can, because 0:20:22.076 --> 0:20:25.516 just because you know, it meant so much to me 0:20:25.596 --> 0:20:28.716 and him, and I didn't do it, And it was 0:20:28.836 --> 0:20:31.956 literally because I just wasn't in the right place and 0:20:32.316 --> 0:20:36.596 I was making destructive decisions at that time. In retrospect 0:20:36.676 --> 0:20:40.876 and now having gone through, you know, iteration after iteration 0:20:40.996 --> 0:20:43.196 of who I am in front of the public eye, 0:20:43.716 --> 0:20:46.876 I with absolute certainty can tell you, I tell you 0:20:46.916 --> 0:20:48.316 I should have made it at that time. 0:20:48.636 --> 0:20:51.036 Dig into a little bit more why you didn't. Is 0:20:51.116 --> 0:20:56.876 it on some level terrifying to actually make make real 0:20:56.996 --> 0:21:00.956 something that you think of as being so perfect or 0:21:01.316 --> 0:21:03.676 something that if something comes in a lightning bolt, is 0:21:03.716 --> 0:21:04.276 it scary. 0:21:05.076 --> 0:21:06.116 It was a lot. 0:21:06.676 --> 0:21:06.756 No. 0:21:06.876 --> 0:21:10.556 I wish I could say it was something that defendable. 0:21:12.116 --> 0:21:16.036 It was literally I think I wanted so much to 0:21:16.076 --> 0:21:18.596 be accepted. I was in a phase of my life 0:21:18.596 --> 0:21:22.556 where I was willing to, I think, give away the 0:21:22.636 --> 0:21:25.836 things that were prescious to me to be accepted. And 0:21:26.876 --> 0:21:29.836 I was so tired of fighting the fight all the time, 0:21:30.116 --> 0:21:32.636 these original movies and you know. 0:21:32.716 --> 0:21:33.196 Doing things. 0:21:33.236 --> 0:21:35.556 And then I didn't have the protection of genre with 0:21:35.636 --> 0:21:38.476 that movie. It would just be me and this incredible actor. 0:21:38.596 --> 0:21:40.956 And at that time, I felt like that's a very 0:21:41.596 --> 0:21:45.876 vulnerable thing, and that it's just an emotional movie and 0:21:45.916 --> 0:21:49.436 the world's going to just shit trash me and trash us, 0:21:49.516 --> 0:21:52.436 and and that's the That was the fears. But I 0:21:52.556 --> 0:21:56.396 was perhaps scared of giving up what I had had 0:21:56.876 --> 0:22:01.156 not very admirable reasons. They were coming from wanting to 0:22:01.196 --> 0:22:04.396 be accepted, from wanting money, you know, you know, in 0:22:04.476 --> 0:22:07.516 other forms, or needing money or whatever it is. And 0:22:07.596 --> 0:22:13.236 so you know, I I failed it because I was impure. 0:22:13.396 --> 0:22:17.156 That's how I feel about it and should have one 0:22:17.236 --> 0:22:20.636 hundred percent done it. This particular actor was, you know, 0:22:21.036 --> 0:22:25.556 sad by the decision. I would say maybe another eight 0:22:25.636 --> 0:22:29.036 years later it came up again, and then this time 0:22:29.356 --> 0:22:31.596 I was the one that said, hey, let's go make this, 0:22:32.236 --> 0:22:35.756 and the same actor wanted to do it, and then 0:22:35.876 --> 0:22:38.756