1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:15,796 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:20,356 --> 00:00:27,156 Speaker 2: I've had such a exceptionally curated career. Every movie I've 3 00:00:27,196 --> 00:00:32,996 Speaker 2: ever written since eighteen has been greenlit to be made 4 00:00:33,036 --> 00:00:35,556 Speaker 2: into a movie. You've seen everything I've written, you know, 5 00:00:36,676 --> 00:00:40,716 Speaker 2: except for this one that we're going to talk about. 6 00:00:42,236 --> 00:00:50,036 Speaker 1: So it's interesting, always a twist. Yeah, Welcome back to 7 00:00:50,116 --> 00:00:54,356 Speaker 1: Development Hell, our mini series about the lost scripts of Hollywood. Today, 8 00:00:54,396 --> 00:00:56,956 Speaker 1: I'm talking with m Night Shyamalan, one of the best 9 00:00:57,036 --> 00:01:02,836 Speaker 1: known filmmakers of the past generation suspense fillers and supernatural psychodrama. 10 00:01:03,316 --> 00:01:06,916 Speaker 1: You know whose movies I'm sure, Unbreakable, the Sixth Sense, 11 00:01:07,436 --> 00:01:12,396 Speaker 1: Split Glass, something like fifteen films in the last thirty years, 12 00:01:12,516 --> 00:01:16,916 Speaker 1: which collectively have grossed billions of dollars. M Night Shamalan's 13 00:01:16,916 --> 00:01:19,876 Speaker 1: stories have haunted a lot of people over the years. 14 00:01:20,596 --> 00:01:29,436 Speaker 1: This episode is about the story that haunted m Night Shauma. 15 00:01:29,556 --> 00:01:31,956 Speaker 1: We've talked a lot so far in a series about 16 00:01:31,996 --> 00:01:34,636 Speaker 1: movies that never got made because there was something wrong 17 00:01:34,676 --> 00:01:37,716 Speaker 1: with the story, or because someone on the outside had 18 00:01:37,756 --> 00:01:41,396 Speaker 1: a problem with the script. This episode is about none 19 00:01:41,436 --> 00:01:43,716 Speaker 1: of those things. There is nothing at all wrong with 20 00:01:43,756 --> 00:01:47,956 Speaker 1: the story Shyamalan has never told, and maybe that's why 21 00:01:47,956 --> 00:01:48,596 Speaker 1: he never told. 22 00:01:55,636 --> 00:01:58,236 Speaker 2: There was the first real script that I felt kind 23 00:01:58,236 --> 00:02:01,676 Speaker 2: of lightning bolt inspiration that came to me. 24 00:02:02,036 --> 00:02:04,596 Speaker 3: I was twenty two and i'd just. 25 00:02:04,596 --> 00:02:07,476 Speaker 2: Been married, just got married, and I wrote a kind 26 00:02:07,476 --> 00:02:10,556 Speaker 2: of a love story, Labor of Love, and I was 27 00:02:10,556 --> 00:02:13,756 Speaker 2: writing it, and I wrote it because I almost remember 28 00:02:13,756 --> 00:02:16,316 Speaker 2: everywhere I wrote it, because it was such a special 29 00:02:16,716 --> 00:02:21,596 Speaker 2: experience of writing. By that time, that was my third 30 00:02:22,156 --> 00:02:27,716 Speaker 2: third feature that i'd written. I had made made a 31 00:02:27,756 --> 00:02:29,356 Speaker 2: movie already in India. 32 00:02:29,476 --> 00:02:32,156 Speaker 1: Tell me, tell me this a little bit about the story. 33 00:02:32,356 --> 00:02:33,756 Speaker 1: What was Labor of Love about? 34 00:02:34,716 --> 00:02:34,876 Speaker 3: You know? 35 00:02:34,956 --> 00:02:38,356 Speaker 2: Labor of Love is essentially a story about an older 36 00:02:38,436 --> 00:02:43,916 Speaker 2: couple and the wife saying, hey, it's an anniversary and 37 00:02:43,996 --> 00:02:46,236 Speaker 2: he forgets and all of this stuff and they've been 38 00:02:46,236 --> 00:02:49,276 Speaker 2: together a long time, and she's just like, you know, 39 00:02:49,716 --> 00:02:52,436 Speaker 2: essentially expresses I do all these little things for you 40 00:02:52,516 --> 00:02:55,916 Speaker 2: our whole life, and you don't. And I'm not sure 41 00:02:56,036 --> 00:02:58,436 Speaker 2: what you want from you know, I'm not sure you 42 00:02:58,476 --> 00:03:00,836 Speaker 2: love me. You know, I'm not one hundred percent sure. 43 00:03:00,876 --> 00:03:04,716 Speaker 2: And that's not a great feeling, you know. And he's baffled, 44 00:03:04,796 --> 00:03:07,036 Speaker 2: right as all guys are just baffled at this, And. 45 00:03:08,916 --> 00:03:11,436 Speaker 3: I mean, what do you mean? I mean, I mean 46 00:03:11,516 --> 00:03:14,156 Speaker 3: what do you want me? I love you goes. 47 00:03:13,996 --> 00:03:16,396 Speaker 1: To work every morning? Who goes to What are you 48 00:03:16,756 --> 00:03:20,356 Speaker 1: doing that for? Okay? Good, good, I get it. 49 00:03:22,116 --> 00:03:23,556 Speaker 2: She I don't want to say too much of it 50 00:03:23,596 --> 00:03:26,356 Speaker 2: because I tend to think of these things as magic. 51 00:03:26,676 --> 00:03:35,076 Speaker 2: And yeah, and she she passes away unexpectedly and very tragically, 52 00:03:35,796 --> 00:03:38,956 Speaker 2: and before she died she said, he said, uh, you know, 53 00:03:38,956 --> 00:03:40,116 Speaker 2: what do you want me to do to prove my 54 00:03:40,156 --> 00:03:42,356 Speaker 2: love to you? You want me to, you know, swim 55 00:03:42,356 --> 00:03:44,716 Speaker 2: across an ocean, or climb a mountain or walk across 56 00:03:44,756 --> 00:03:45,556 Speaker 2: the United States? 57 00:03:45,556 --> 00:03:46,276 Speaker 3: What do you want me to do? 58 00:03:46,396 --> 00:03:48,876 Speaker 2: She's like, just walk to the store and get me 59 00:03:48,956 --> 00:03:50,956 Speaker 2: something on your own, because you were thinking, you know, 60 00:03:51,036 --> 00:03:54,236 Speaker 2: something small like that. Anyway, she passes away. He's an 61 00:03:54,236 --> 00:03:57,076 Speaker 2: older man. He's in a you know, late sixties seventies 62 00:03:57,196 --> 00:04:00,996 Speaker 2: kind of thing, out of shape, and he's so devastated 63 00:04:01,236 --> 00:04:03,836 Speaker 2: he makes a crazy decision to start walking across the 64 00:04:03,916 --> 00:04:06,756 Speaker 2: United States for nothing else but just to show his 65 00:04:06,836 --> 00:04:10,076 Speaker 2: wife who's passed away, in case she can see. And 66 00:04:10,716 --> 00:04:13,836 Speaker 2: this isn't I wrote this in nineteen ninety four, right, 67 00:04:13,956 --> 00:04:19,196 Speaker 2: so no cell phones, no nothing, no internet, And he 68 00:04:19,276 --> 00:04:23,316 Speaker 2: just begins this track and it's a kind of like 69 00:04:23,396 --> 00:04:25,316 Speaker 2: a vision quest a little bit. He starts to think 70 00:04:25,316 --> 00:04:27,476 Speaker 2: about his life and his time with his wife and 71 00:04:27,556 --> 00:04:30,436 Speaker 2: from when they were kids, and he's physically in threat 72 00:04:30,476 --> 00:04:34,076 Speaker 2: as he's doing this, and slowly the country starts to 73 00:04:34,116 --> 00:04:36,156 Speaker 2: get to hear about this guy, and they're trying to 74 00:04:36,276 --> 00:04:39,236 Speaker 2: urge him do it to get there and it's so crazy, 75 00:04:39,236 --> 00:04:40,076 Speaker 2: Why are you doing this? 76 00:04:40,116 --> 00:04:40,836 Speaker 3: Why are you doing this? 77 00:04:40,956 --> 00:04:43,876 Speaker 2: And then the country kind of gets on board with 78 00:04:43,996 --> 00:04:48,556 Speaker 2: the feeling of doing something irrational to show your love 79 00:04:48,716 --> 00:04:49,876 Speaker 2: for the person that. 80 00:04:49,796 --> 00:04:50,516 Speaker 3: You care about. 81 00:04:51,076 --> 00:04:52,476 Speaker 2: And I'm not going to tell you the ending, but 82 00:04:52,556 --> 00:04:56,956 Speaker 2: it's really poignant, the idea of just doing something so 83 00:04:56,996 --> 00:04:58,276 Speaker 2: the other person can hear you. 84 00:04:58,756 --> 00:05:03,556 Speaker 1: So you're twenty two, you're very much in love. You've 85 00:05:03,596 --> 00:05:06,756 Speaker 1: just married your wife, who you've known for how long 86 00:05:06,756 --> 00:05:07,396 Speaker 1: at that point. 87 00:05:08,196 --> 00:05:12,236 Speaker 2: I met when I was eighteen, so owner for four 88 00:05:12,316 --> 00:05:13,036 Speaker 2: years at that point. 89 00:05:13,236 --> 00:05:18,676 Speaker 1: So the and in this period of love struck youth. 90 00:05:19,636 --> 00:05:22,716 Speaker 1: When you are, you know, in love with your young wife, 91 00:05:22,996 --> 00:05:27,836 Speaker 1: you write a story about an older couple, Yes, where 92 00:05:28,316 --> 00:05:31,676 Speaker 1: the question of the man's devotion to the to his 93 00:05:31,756 --> 00:05:34,676 Speaker 1: wife is in doubt. Yes, and he had In other words, 94 00:05:35,236 --> 00:05:37,796 Speaker 1: I thought you were going to say I wrote this 95 00:05:37,876 --> 00:05:39,636 Speaker 1: at twenty two. I was just married a mention love. 96 00:05:39,796 --> 00:05:43,916 Speaker 1: It's about this young couple who embark you. You jump back, 97 00:05:43,996 --> 00:05:47,476 Speaker 1: you jump forward forty years when you start looking back. 98 00:05:48,396 --> 00:05:50,636 Speaker 3: Yes, so yeah, in the period. 99 00:05:50,356 --> 00:05:54,036 Speaker 1: Where you are of greatest infatuation, your impulse is to 100 00:05:54,076 --> 00:05:57,596 Speaker 1: go to the end of the relationship and work backwards. 101 00:05:58,276 --> 00:05:58,556 Speaker 3: Yeah. 102 00:05:58,676 --> 00:06:05,236 Speaker 2: I mean, I think I've always been driven by familial nightmares, 103 00:06:06,636 --> 00:06:11,916 Speaker 2: you know, the sanctity of the family being jeopardized. You know, 104 00:06:12,076 --> 00:06:16,756 Speaker 2: later it changed into aliens and ghosts and you name it, 105 00:06:16,796 --> 00:06:21,756 Speaker 2: But ultimately it's still about families and whether whether they 106 00:06:21,796 --> 00:06:22,356 Speaker 2: can survive. 107 00:06:22,956 --> 00:06:25,916 Speaker 1: What is it about you at a period of young love, 108 00:06:25,996 --> 00:06:29,956 Speaker 1: when you're already thinking about the kind of not the 109 00:06:29,996 --> 00:06:32,476 Speaker 1: dissolution of love, but the final stage of it. You 110 00:06:32,876 --> 00:06:36,276 Speaker 1: why would you jump ahead? What's it? No? 111 00:06:36,396 --> 00:06:39,236 Speaker 2: I guess I guess you're thinking about your life and 112 00:06:39,276 --> 00:06:42,076 Speaker 2: what you wanted to be and where it could go wrong. 113 00:06:43,116 --> 00:06:44,916 Speaker 2: And maybe I was thinking about what is it? 114 00:06:44,996 --> 00:06:46,716 Speaker 3: What is it? What do I want this to be at. 115 00:06:46,636 --> 00:06:49,356 Speaker 2: The end of the journey, you know, forty years from now, 116 00:06:49,396 --> 00:06:53,716 Speaker 2: fifty years from now. I hope, I hope I've lived 117 00:06:53,716 --> 00:06:56,316 Speaker 2: the life the right way and of course there's going 118 00:06:56,356 --> 00:06:58,076 Speaker 2: to be a lot of mistakes along the way. But 119 00:06:58,276 --> 00:07:01,356 Speaker 2: I don't have fears like the other people have fears 120 00:07:01,356 --> 00:07:02,996 Speaker 2: in the sense of, like I knew I was going 121 00:07:03,036 --> 00:07:06,396 Speaker 2: to marry the second I matter, you know, like those things. 122 00:07:06,516 --> 00:07:10,436 Speaker 2: I fear getting a call that's something bad happened, you know, 123 00:07:10,596 --> 00:07:13,716 Speaker 2: And that's very prevalent and still thirty years later. 124 00:07:14,036 --> 00:07:17,996 Speaker 1: Yeah, but you're asking yourself the question of what is 125 00:07:18,036 --> 00:07:22,996 Speaker 1: the most tragic outcome of young love? Is that what 126 00:07:23,276 --> 00:07:26,876 Speaker 1: is what you've described is that one one party loves 127 00:07:26,956 --> 00:07:30,236 Speaker 1: and the other party doesn't realize they're being loved. You 128 00:07:30,276 --> 00:07:35,596 Speaker 1: put your finger on something that's like it does a 129 00:07:35,716 --> 00:07:38,236 Speaker 1: deeply resonant anxiety. 130 00:07:38,396 --> 00:07:41,156 Speaker 2: It is I probably fund the dynamic of me and 131 00:07:41,196 --> 00:07:47,036 Speaker 2: my wife that you know, she married a dreamer, someone 132 00:07:47,076 --> 00:07:51,556 Speaker 2: who's completely content to stare out in an empty room 133 00:07:51,916 --> 00:07:55,076 Speaker 2: and just do that all day long and think about 134 00:07:55,116 --> 00:08:01,196 Speaker 2: an imaginary world with imaginary people and feel fulfilled. And 135 00:08:01,236 --> 00:08:03,756 Speaker 2: she's like, well, I'm right here, you know, what about 136 00:08:03,836 --> 00:08:05,836 Speaker 2: what about the real life where you're. 137 00:08:05,716 --> 00:08:08,436 Speaker 3: We're living, you know, And. 138 00:08:07,556 --> 00:08:10,276 Speaker 2: And so the struggle has been you know, I've heard 139 00:08:10,316 --> 00:08:12,916 Speaker 2: all of those stories of you know, from you know, 140 00:08:12,996 --> 00:08:15,476 Speaker 2: f Scott Fitzgerald to you name it. You know all 141 00:08:15,556 --> 00:08:18,916 Speaker 2: our heroes and how they struggled with their personal life 142 00:08:19,076 --> 00:08:26,516 Speaker 2: versus their artistry. Is it a one or the other equation? 143 00:08:27,436 --> 00:08:29,396 Speaker 2: We sometimes it feels that way, and for a lot 144 00:08:29,436 --> 00:08:31,916 Speaker 2: of people it feels that way. I've tried to see 145 00:08:31,916 --> 00:08:36,076 Speaker 2: if they can be feed each other and it feeds 146 00:08:36,236 --> 00:08:40,676 Speaker 2: the movies, the feeling of love for your wife or 147 00:08:40,676 --> 00:08:43,436 Speaker 2: for your kids or you know, and what does that mean? 148 00:08:43,476 --> 00:08:44,556 Speaker 3: How can you imbue it? 149 00:08:44,596 --> 00:08:46,796 Speaker 2: And you guys feel it when you see the movies 150 00:08:46,836 --> 00:08:49,116 Speaker 2: and really the stories that I mean. 151 00:08:49,476 --> 00:08:52,796 Speaker 1: And the hardest thing to explain to your spouse in 152 00:08:52,836 --> 00:08:56,076 Speaker 1: that instance is that to them you seem inaccessible in 153 00:08:56,196 --> 00:09:00,716 Speaker 1: that dreaming. But from your perspective, I'm putting words in 154 00:09:00,756 --> 00:09:03,436 Speaker 1: your mouth, but there's a certain amount of commonality between 155 00:09:03,476 --> 00:09:06,916 Speaker 1: the way I approachest the way that you do. What's 156 00:09:06,996 --> 00:09:11,116 Speaker 1: hard to explain is that not being inaccessible and in fact, 157 00:09:11,676 --> 00:09:14,076 Speaker 1: the relationship we have with our loved one is what 158 00:09:14,156 --> 00:09:15,596 Speaker 1: makes our dreaming possible. 159 00:09:16,156 --> 00:09:16,476 Speaker 3: M hm. 160 00:09:16,916 --> 00:09:21,636 Speaker 1: Right there. They're the engine of it. They're not outside 161 00:09:21,636 --> 00:09:25,516 Speaker 1: of it. It's their presence and support and structure and 162 00:09:25,596 --> 00:09:29,956 Speaker 1: love and whatever that permits us to wander off and 163 00:09:30,436 --> 00:09:35,636 Speaker 1: in our imagination and feel find comfort and joy and 164 00:09:35,716 --> 00:09:37,476 Speaker 1: all of that. I don't know, it's like that. It's 165 00:09:37,476 --> 00:09:40,476 Speaker 1: a very hard thing to to explain to someone that 166 00:09:40,516 --> 00:09:44,156 Speaker 1: they're that our inner lives are contingent on someone from 167 00:09:44,196 --> 00:09:45,276 Speaker 1: the out on the outside. 168 00:09:45,516 --> 00:09:48,756 Speaker 2: Yes, you know, So finding love and then building a 169 00:09:48,876 --> 00:09:53,316 Speaker 2: career from there felt felt the right, the right building blocks, 170 00:09:53,396 --> 00:09:56,996 Speaker 2: and so that movie was the beginning of that. You know, 171 00:09:57,036 --> 00:09:59,836 Speaker 2: when writing this movie, Labor of Love, it was it 172 00:09:59,956 --> 00:10:02,796 Speaker 2: was coming from such an interesting place, and I was 173 00:10:02,956 --> 00:10:05,596 Speaker 2: writing ahead of my abilities at that point. 174 00:10:05,636 --> 00:10:08,796 Speaker 3: It was just kind of going by this inspiration of love. 175 00:10:08,836 --> 00:10:10,676 Speaker 1: I think, what do you mean by writing ahead of 176 00:10:10,676 --> 00:10:11,476 Speaker 1: your abilities? 177 00:10:12,196 --> 00:10:14,596 Speaker 2: You know, I didn't have as much craft at that time. 178 00:10:14,756 --> 00:10:17,716 Speaker 2: This is oftentimes your career is an equation of craft 179 00:10:17,796 --> 00:10:23,676 Speaker 2: and inspiration, and so lacking in craft and at twenty two, 180 00:10:23,836 --> 00:10:26,916 Speaker 2: but the inspiration was out of ten. You know that 181 00:10:27,396 --> 00:10:30,356 Speaker 2: feeling when I was writing it, what this feels beautiful, 182 00:10:30,476 --> 00:10:33,356 Speaker 2: This feels this feels lovely. You know, I love this 183 00:10:33,436 --> 00:10:36,036 Speaker 2: feeling how it's coming out and how I can see 184 00:10:36,076 --> 00:10:40,756 Speaker 2: the characters and in retrospect now thirty years later, can 185 00:10:40,796 --> 00:10:43,596 Speaker 2: see that. You know, I was really listening to the 186 00:10:43,676 --> 00:10:47,636 Speaker 2: characters almost like a novelist, and following it. And so 187 00:10:47,676 --> 00:10:51,556 Speaker 2: the end result is I wrote the screenplay that ended 188 00:10:51,636 --> 00:10:55,396 Speaker 2: up becoming a bidding War from my parents' guest bedroom 189 00:10:55,436 --> 00:10:58,676 Speaker 2: where me and my wife were living in the guest bedroom. 190 00:10:58,796 --> 00:11:01,156 Speaker 2: The best bedroom was pink. It was for my sister. 191 00:11:01,596 --> 00:11:04,156 Speaker 2: Was It was just a you know, we had to 192 00:11:04,156 --> 00:11:08,396 Speaker 2: get out of here kind of feeling. And this script 193 00:11:08,476 --> 00:11:10,076 Speaker 2: went out and there was the bidding war and someone 194 00:11:10,116 --> 00:11:12,036 Speaker 2: offered this amount of money and then that amount of money, 195 00:11:12,036 --> 00:11:12,636 Speaker 2: and it was crazy. 196 00:11:12,636 --> 00:11:13,116 Speaker 3: And I was a kid. 197 00:11:13,156 --> 00:11:15,196 Speaker 2: I'd run down and I'd be like, mom, they offered 198 00:11:15,236 --> 00:11:16,556 Speaker 2: this amount of money. 199 00:11:16,796 --> 00:11:17,516 Speaker 3: It's crazy. 200 00:11:19,196 --> 00:11:22,196 Speaker 2: But I only directed this little movie in India, and 201 00:11:22,356 --> 00:11:26,036 Speaker 2: they saw it as a big, big movie. And this 202 00:11:26,196 --> 00:11:29,636 Speaker 2: was back in an era of Hollywood where the entire 203 00:11:29,716 --> 00:11:33,756 Speaker 2: system was geared at original movies. The system was built 204 00:11:33,796 --> 00:11:38,916 Speaker 2: to nurture original movies, and the spec screenplay markets, screenplay 205 00:11:38,996 --> 00:11:43,356 Speaker 2: is done on speculation was the kind of gold rush, 206 00:11:43,676 --> 00:11:46,636 Speaker 2: and so if there was an incredible screenplay that came out, 207 00:11:46,836 --> 00:11:49,036 Speaker 2: everyone would read it immediately and it would go in 208 00:11:49,076 --> 00:11:51,236 Speaker 2: this bidding war because that was the food that was 209 00:11:51,276 --> 00:11:53,876 Speaker 2: feeding the engine at that time to the movie theaters, 210 00:11:54,676 --> 00:11:57,196 Speaker 2: and so I was luckily kind of grew up in 211 00:11:57,196 --> 00:11:59,756 Speaker 2: an era where what I love to do, which is 212 00:11:59,796 --> 00:12:04,796 Speaker 2: original movies, was really celebrated and promoted, and so everyone 213 00:12:04,836 --> 00:12:06,796 Speaker 2: bit on it and we sold the tunch of Fox. 214 00:12:07,796 --> 00:12:09,796 Speaker 2: You know, I was attached to direct, and then I 215 00:12:09,836 --> 00:12:13,716 Speaker 2: flew out and I put on my graduation suit, which 216 00:12:13,756 --> 00:12:15,356 Speaker 2: I didn't because I didn't have many suits, so I 217 00:12:15,356 --> 00:12:18,996 Speaker 2: wore my old suit and then they they listened to 218 00:12:19,036 --> 00:12:21,356 Speaker 2: me about how I would direct a movie, and then 219 00:12:21,436 --> 00:12:26,756 Speaker 2: they subsequently fired me off the movie. So it was devastated. 220 00:12:26,996 --> 00:12:28,716 Speaker 2: Just absolutely What did. 221 00:12:28,596 --> 00:12:32,236 Speaker 1: You do wrong in your pitch to be a directly? 222 00:12:32,876 --> 00:12:35,956 Speaker 2: That's really interesting a question I would say. I wasn't 223 00:12:35,996 --> 00:12:39,116 Speaker 2: a director yet. I had more practice at writing than directing. 224 00:12:39,196 --> 00:12:41,516 Speaker 2: And of course, sitting in a room telling a chairman 225 00:12:41,596 --> 00:12:44,076 Speaker 2: of a studio how you'd make a film, and they're 226 00:12:44,116 --> 00:12:46,756 Speaker 2: asking certain questions, and you know, I don't know if 227 00:12:46,756 --> 00:12:49,116 Speaker 2: I had a chance at all, you know, before I 228 00:12:49,156 --> 00:12:49,756 Speaker 2: walked in there. 229 00:12:49,756 --> 00:12:55,076 Speaker 1: In retrospect night, you're now hold fifty three. Yeah, you 230 00:12:55,116 --> 00:12:59,916 Speaker 1: look at fifty three, you look at thirty, at twenty two, 231 00:13:00,116 --> 00:13:01,396 Speaker 1: you must have looked twelve. 232 00:13:01,876 --> 00:13:04,276 Speaker 3: You're absolutely correct, you're absolutely correct. 233 00:13:04,236 --> 00:13:07,156 Speaker 1: You know what's going to give you fifty million dollars 234 00:13:07,196 --> 00:13:09,956 Speaker 1: to direct a movie when you it's like a twelve year. 235 00:13:09,876 --> 00:13:12,756 Speaker 2: Old Yeah, and I'm in this ill fitting suit which 236 00:13:12,796 --> 00:13:15,156 Speaker 2: makes me even look younger because you're liked you wear 237 00:13:15,196 --> 00:13:17,876 Speaker 2: your big brother's suit or whatever it was. 238 00:13:18,476 --> 00:13:19,636 Speaker 3: I remember the feeling. 239 00:13:19,676 --> 00:13:22,916 Speaker 2: I can remember the feeling pitching it to the chairman 240 00:13:23,076 --> 00:13:26,236 Speaker 2: and then the heads of the studio and going, I'm 241 00:13:26,316 --> 00:13:31,156 Speaker 2: not I don't I don't believe what I'm saying, and 242 00:13:31,236 --> 00:13:33,036 Speaker 2: I'm guessing. I was like basically, I was like, I 243 00:13:33,316 --> 00:13:35,636 Speaker 2: don't know. I'm gonna learn, you know as I do this, 244 00:13:35,676 --> 00:13:38,316 Speaker 2: because I can see it in my head, you know, 245 00:13:38,436 --> 00:13:40,116 Speaker 2: so I'll I'll learn. 246 00:13:40,236 --> 00:13:42,916 Speaker 3: And they took me. I was very painful. 247 00:13:43,116 --> 00:13:45,716 Speaker 2: Then I ended up, you know, they talked me into 248 00:13:45,796 --> 00:13:48,156 Speaker 2: kind of pay rewrite it for some other a list 249 00:13:48,196 --> 00:13:51,076 Speaker 2: directors of that time. So I had a chance to 250 00:13:51,116 --> 00:13:53,156 Speaker 2: be in the room at some you know at that time, 251 00:13:53,316 --> 00:13:56,676 Speaker 2: the top directors, and they would say do this, do that, 252 00:13:56,836 --> 00:13:59,356 Speaker 2: and I just couldn't. I would rewrite it and it 253 00:13:59,356 --> 00:14:03,276 Speaker 2: would get worse in retrospect, some kind of mojo curse 254 00:14:03,316 --> 00:14:07,236 Speaker 2: I put on it, and it could never get it never, 255 00:14:07,316 --> 00:14:10,916 Speaker 2: It could never bloom into So there was lots of 256 00:14:11,076 --> 00:14:14,116 Speaker 2: directors that try, two or three directors that tried. So 257 00:14:14,836 --> 00:14:17,836 Speaker 2: what was really weird about this movie represented some kind 258 00:14:17,876 --> 00:14:22,036 Speaker 2: of you know, connection with the universe. And I think 259 00:14:22,076 --> 00:14:24,276 Speaker 2: for a little bit I thought that was a one 260 00:14:24,356 --> 00:14:26,796 Speaker 2: off and that that's never going to happen again. 261 00:14:26,836 --> 00:14:27,636 Speaker 3: And that was the fear. 262 00:14:28,156 --> 00:14:33,436 Speaker 2: That screenplay just became something of a mythic thing for me, like, oh, 263 00:14:33,476 --> 00:14:34,956 Speaker 2: I'll never get that back again. 264 00:14:36,476 --> 00:14:40,516 Speaker 1: M night. Shyamalan writes his masterpiece and then he's haunted 265 00:14:40,556 --> 00:14:58,116 Speaker 1: by it more after the break. Wait, so what's the 266 00:14:58,156 --> 00:15:01,156 Speaker 1: next stage in the saga of Labor of Love? 267 00:15:01,716 --> 00:15:05,756 Speaker 2: So sixth sense happens, right? I wrote it, you know 268 00:15:05,756 --> 00:15:09,876 Speaker 2: a few years later and wonderful outcome. Everyone wanted to 269 00:15:09,916 --> 00:15:12,716 Speaker 2: make movies with me, and I said to Fox, I 270 00:15:12,716 --> 00:15:14,196 Speaker 2: would love to have that screen light back. 271 00:15:14,236 --> 00:15:16,036 Speaker 3: They said, oh, do you want to make Labor of Love? 272 00:15:16,556 --> 00:15:20,036 Speaker 2: And I said, well, no, I'm thinking about making another movie, 273 00:15:20,116 --> 00:15:23,156 Speaker 2: which was Unbreakable that I was writing at that time 274 00:15:23,716 --> 00:15:26,276 Speaker 2: about comic books, even though no one had making comic 275 00:15:26,276 --> 00:15:28,596 Speaker 2: book movies, and I thought no one would ever see 276 00:15:28,636 --> 00:15:31,436 Speaker 2: this movie. But it was something that interest me and 277 00:15:31,556 --> 00:15:33,516 Speaker 2: I said, you know, I was really into genre. 278 00:15:33,596 --> 00:15:33,836 Speaker 3: Now. 279 00:15:33,916 --> 00:15:37,596 Speaker 2: I was like, okay, genre is my way. Labor of 280 00:15:37,676 --> 00:15:42,396 Speaker 2: Love is very it's a very emotional movie. I think 281 00:15:42,436 --> 00:15:45,116 Speaker 2: I have that as my base tendency to be emotional, 282 00:15:45,276 --> 00:15:50,996 Speaker 2: and I think until I found genre to balance it, 283 00:15:51,156 --> 00:15:53,436 Speaker 2: I was too much for people because like I start 284 00:15:53,436 --> 00:15:55,876 Speaker 2: at a nine, like at emotion. If you and I 285 00:15:55,916 --> 00:15:58,436 Speaker 2: are talking over drinks about time, I'll be I'll be like, 286 00:15:58,956 --> 00:16:03,596 Speaker 2: I'll be already emotionally to be you know there. And 287 00:16:03,676 --> 00:16:06,916 Speaker 2: I think genre helped me balance that. You know, you 288 00:16:06,996 --> 00:16:08,996 Speaker 2: have to meet the audience where they are. This is 289 00:16:09,116 --> 00:16:12,756 Speaker 2: something I learned in my mid twenties. When you're telling 290 00:16:12,796 --> 00:16:16,556 Speaker 2: a story, meet them where they are and don't lecture 291 00:16:16,596 --> 00:16:19,556 Speaker 2: them and demand that they come to you. You come 292 00:16:19,596 --> 00:16:23,436 Speaker 2: to them, so you start tonally where they are. So 293 00:16:23,476 --> 00:16:26,796 Speaker 2: it's a tough world and we have a little we 294 00:16:26,916 --> 00:16:30,636 Speaker 2: have cynicism. That's how we get through our lives, you know. 295 00:16:30,676 --> 00:16:35,276 Speaker 2: We balance that to protect our software parts. And genre 296 00:16:35,396 --> 00:16:39,196 Speaker 2: does that. It comes in and it balances. I have 297 00:16:39,356 --> 00:16:43,196 Speaker 2: this feeling about movie making, our art that it has 298 00:16:43,236 --> 00:16:46,516 Speaker 2: to have the right balance of light and dark, and 299 00:16:46,916 --> 00:16:49,756 Speaker 2: that's when it rings true. The love of a mother 300 00:16:49,836 --> 00:16:54,196 Speaker 2: to a child has a selfish component. You have to have, 301 00:16:54,556 --> 00:16:58,276 Speaker 2: you know, a controlling component, then it rings true. There's 302 00:16:58,316 --> 00:17:01,516 Speaker 2: also the beauty, the pure love you know, of a 303 00:17:01,596 --> 00:17:03,996 Speaker 2: parent to a child. But if I can get both 304 00:17:04,036 --> 00:17:06,676 Speaker 2: things in there, then it rings true and you start 305 00:17:06,716 --> 00:17:09,916 Speaker 2: to see yourself in it. I think genre allows me 306 00:17:10,036 --> 00:17:13,796 Speaker 2: to show you that the light side, you know. Because 307 00:17:13,796 --> 00:17:16,556 Speaker 2: of that, I can go very dark. I mean I've 308 00:17:16,676 --> 00:17:20,796 Speaker 2: killed off more protagonist than anybody. This is like dark stuff, 309 00:17:21,796 --> 00:17:24,796 Speaker 2: but that's because underneath, I do feel the universe is 310 00:17:24,836 --> 00:17:27,796 Speaker 2: a benevolent place, and I feel that from that. 311 00:17:27,876 --> 00:17:29,636 Speaker 3: So genre has helped me balance things. 312 00:17:30,116 --> 00:17:35,316 Speaker 1: Is it fair to say that genre, particularly horror or supernatural, 313 00:17:36,156 --> 00:17:39,396 Speaker 1: it lowers the stakes in a certain way. What does 314 00:17:39,436 --> 00:17:41,876 Speaker 1: it allow you to? What's what's the best way to 315 00:17:42,316 --> 00:17:45,796 Speaker 1: describe the way it It's it's. 316 00:17:45,676 --> 00:17:47,636 Speaker 3: Protective when you get really down to it. 317 00:17:47,676 --> 00:17:52,596 Speaker 2: I'm just this sentimental dude that's overly earnest. When I 318 00:17:52,676 --> 00:17:55,236 Speaker 2: speak to people, they think it's gamesmanship. 319 00:17:55,276 --> 00:17:55,596 Speaker 3: It's not. 320 00:17:55,836 --> 00:17:59,116 Speaker 2: There's no game at all. I'm I love it, I 321 00:17:59,156 --> 00:18:03,036 Speaker 2: hate it. I I'm terrified. I'll tell you openly, you 322 00:18:03,076 --> 00:18:08,236 Speaker 2: know everything, and when we do things like comedy and 323 00:18:08,316 --> 00:18:11,436 Speaker 2: all this stuff. Those are ways to protect ourselves which 324 00:18:12,196 --> 00:18:15,396 Speaker 2: I understand and I can use as well. And genre 325 00:18:15,596 --> 00:18:18,836 Speaker 2: is if I can show you edgy dark things and 326 00:18:18,916 --> 00:18:20,876 Speaker 2: show you because I do have an agi dark side 327 00:18:20,916 --> 00:18:24,196 Speaker 2: as well. I just deploy it at the right times 328 00:18:24,676 --> 00:18:27,996 Speaker 2: that allows me in the in the balance of things 329 00:18:27,996 --> 00:18:30,516 Speaker 2: in the audience's eyes and their emotional journey. 330 00:18:30,676 --> 00:18:31,436 Speaker 3: It's earned. 331 00:18:31,516 --> 00:18:35,036 Speaker 2: Then when I do the car scene in sixth sense 332 00:18:35,076 --> 00:18:38,236 Speaker 2: with the mom and the child, you know I've earned 333 00:18:38,276 --> 00:18:42,956 Speaker 2: it by by by titillating them and scaring them in 334 00:18:42,996 --> 00:18:45,356 Speaker 2: a certain way. There's a balancing act that goes on 335 00:18:45,396 --> 00:18:49,636 Speaker 2: which I think is important for me to acknowledge that 336 00:18:49,756 --> 00:18:53,836 Speaker 2: this is a conversation with the audience, that it's not 337 00:18:53,956 --> 00:18:54,676 Speaker 2: just a lecture. 338 00:18:55,356 --> 00:18:58,836 Speaker 1: Yeah, labor of love is are you saying there's there's 339 00:18:58,836 --> 00:19:01,636 Speaker 1: no supernatural It is a straight. 340 00:19:03,036 --> 00:19:06,156 Speaker 3: Pretty much? Yeah, just a straight you say pretty much, 341 00:19:08,516 --> 00:19:09,876 Speaker 3: pretty much? Pretty much. 342 00:19:09,876 --> 00:19:12,516 Speaker 2: The reason I say pretty much is there's a tiny 343 00:19:12,556 --> 00:19:16,636 Speaker 2: bit of spirituality and love, and so that I do 344 00:19:16,716 --> 00:19:20,156 Speaker 2: represent that in there, that things are bound a bit, 345 00:19:20,436 --> 00:19:25,676 Speaker 2: that there's some inspirational, magical things that happen sometimes you 346 00:19:25,716 --> 00:19:29,796 Speaker 2: know that's related to love. So that's all. But there 347 00:19:29,836 --> 00:19:31,156 Speaker 2: is no genre in it. 348 00:19:31,236 --> 00:19:31,716 Speaker 3: That's we were. 349 00:19:33,196 --> 00:19:37,116 Speaker 2: This opportunity came, I would say, you know, fifteen years 350 00:19:37,196 --> 00:19:41,236 Speaker 2: later where I could make that movie with literally the 351 00:19:41,236 --> 00:19:45,116 Speaker 2: best actor in the world and the person that I 352 00:19:45,156 --> 00:19:47,396 Speaker 2: would want to make a movie with more than anybody. 353 00:19:47,956 --> 00:19:51,116 Speaker 2: It was being squeezed between another movie that I was 354 00:19:51,156 --> 00:19:54,876 Speaker 2: making for a big studio, and I made the wrong 355 00:19:54,916 --> 00:19:59,836 Speaker 2: decision and I didn't make it. And when I think 356 00:19:59,876 --> 00:20:04,836 Speaker 2: back on it now, knowing me and who is the actor, well, 357 00:20:04,876 --> 00:20:10,196 Speaker 2: I don't want to say just because just because, because 358 00:20:10,236 --> 00:20:14,436 Speaker 2: it's more about the emotional stuff that we're talking about 359 00:20:14,516 --> 00:20:16,716 Speaker 2: rather than the kind of the titillation of it, of 360 00:20:16,756 --> 00:20:19,756 Speaker 2: the names and things like that, if we can, because 361 00:20:22,076 --> 00:20:25,516 Speaker 2: just because you know, it meant so much to me 362 00:20:25,596 --> 00:20:28,716 Speaker 2: and him, and I didn't do it, And it was 363 00:20:28,836 --> 00:20:31,956 Speaker 2: literally because I just wasn't in the right place and 364 00:20:32,316 --> 00:20:36,596 Speaker 2: I was making destructive decisions at that time. In retrospect 365 00:20:36,676 --> 00:20:40,876 Speaker 2: and now having gone through, you know, iteration after iteration 366 00:20:40,996 --> 00:20:43,196 Speaker 2: of who I am in front of the public eye, 367 00:20:43,716 --> 00:20:46,876 Speaker 2: I with absolute certainty can tell you, I tell you 368 00:20:46,916 --> 00:20:48,316 Speaker 2: I should have made it at that time. 369 00:20:48,636 --> 00:20:51,036 Speaker 1: Dig into a little bit more why you didn't. Is 370 00:20:51,116 --> 00:20:56,876 Speaker 1: it on some level terrifying to actually make make real 371 00:20:56,996 --> 00:21:00,956 Speaker 1: something that you think of as being so perfect or 372 00:21:01,316 --> 00:21:03,676 Speaker 1: something that if something comes in a lightning bolt, is 373 00:21:03,716 --> 00:21:04,276 Speaker 1: it scary. 374 00:21:05,076 --> 00:21:06,116 Speaker 3: It was a lot. 375 00:21:06,676 --> 00:21:06,756 Speaker 1: No. 376 00:21:06,876 --> 00:21:10,556 Speaker 2: I wish I could say it was something that defendable. 377 00:21:12,116 --> 00:21:16,036 Speaker 2: It was literally I think I wanted so much to 378 00:21:16,076 --> 00:21:18,596 Speaker 2: be accepted. I was in a phase of my life 379 00:21:18,596 --> 00:21:22,556 Speaker 2: where I was willing to, I think, give away the 380 00:21:22,636 --> 00:21:25,836 Speaker 2: things that were prescious to me to be accepted. And 381 00:21:26,876 --> 00:21:29,836 Speaker 2: I was so tired of fighting the fight all the time, 382 00:21:30,116 --> 00:21:32,636 Speaker 2: these original movies and you know. 383 00:21:32,716 --> 00:21:33,196 Speaker 3: Doing things. 384 00:21:33,236 --> 00:21:35,556 Speaker 2: And then I didn't have the protection of genre with 385 00:21:35,636 --> 00:21:38,476 Speaker 2: that movie. It would just be me and this incredible actor. 386 00:21:38,596 --> 00:21:40,956 Speaker 2: And at that time, I felt like that's a very 387 00:21:41,596 --> 00:21:45,876 Speaker 2: vulnerable thing, and that it's just an emotional movie and 388 00:21:45,916 --> 00:21:49,436 Speaker 2: the world's going to just shit trash me and trash us, 389 00:21:49,516 --> 00:21:52,436 Speaker 2: and and that's the That was the fears. But I 390 00:21:52,556 --> 00:21:56,396 Speaker 2: was perhaps scared of giving up what I had had 391 00:21:56,876 --> 00:22:01,156 Speaker 2: not very admirable reasons. They were coming from wanting to 392 00:22:01,196 --> 00:22:04,396 Speaker 2: be accepted, from wanting money, you know, you know, in 393 00:22:04,476 --> 00:22:07,516 Speaker 2: other forms, or needing money or whatever it is. And 394 00:22:07,596 --> 00:22:13,236 Speaker 2: so you know, I I failed it because I was impure. 395 00:22:13,396 --> 00:22:17,156 Speaker 2: That's how I feel about it and should have one 396 00:22:17,236 --> 00:22:20,636 Speaker 2: hundred percent done it. This particular actor was, you know, 397 00:22:21,036 --> 00:22:25,556 Speaker 2: sad by the decision. I would say maybe another eight 398 00:22:25,636 --> 00:22:29,036 Speaker 2: years later it came up again, and then this time 399 00:22:29,356 --> 00:22:31,596 Speaker 2: I was the one that said, hey, let's go make this, 400 00:22:32,236 --> 00:22:35,756 Speaker 2: and the same actor wanted to do it, and then 401 00:22:35,876 --> 00:22:38,756 Speaker 2: went off and did another piece, a big kind of 402 00:22:38,876 --> 00:22:40,356 Speaker 2: thing that they were a part of. 403 00:22:40,516 --> 00:22:42,396 Speaker 3: And it was successful the thing they did. 404 00:22:43,036 --> 00:22:45,356 Speaker 2: But a little bit of it was we missed each other, 405 00:22:45,676 --> 00:22:48,156 Speaker 2: you know, we missed our moment, you know, a little bit. 406 00:22:49,716 --> 00:22:52,436 Speaker 1: But the movie wasn't done with m Night Shyamalan yet 407 00:22:52,676 --> 00:23:13,916 Speaker 1: not at all. Back with more after the break? How 408 00:23:13,956 --> 00:23:15,796 Speaker 1: does the way you relate to the movie? How has 409 00:23:15,836 --> 00:23:18,676 Speaker 1: it changed over the years you're now if thirty years 410 00:23:18,676 --> 00:23:21,676 Speaker 1: have gone by, Yeah, do you look at it and 411 00:23:21,716 --> 00:23:23,876 Speaker 1: think about it and see it differently now than you 412 00:23:23,876 --> 00:23:24,876 Speaker 1: did when you were twenty two? 413 00:23:25,116 --> 00:23:28,676 Speaker 2: Right now, I wouldn't change anything about it, and we'd 414 00:23:28,676 --> 00:23:31,476 Speaker 2: make it as a period piece in nineteen ninety four. 415 00:23:31,676 --> 00:23:35,356 Speaker 2: The music the more is the time, you know, which 416 00:23:37,156 --> 00:23:41,356 Speaker 2: sadly feels incredibly innocent. It almost feels like, you know, 417 00:23:41,476 --> 00:23:44,156 Speaker 2: let's take a stroll around the garden, you know, think Oh, 418 00:23:44,196 --> 00:23:46,556 Speaker 2: I'm so tired from the stroll. Let's lie dout. It's like, 419 00:23:46,596 --> 00:23:48,556 Speaker 2: you know, when we will see a period piece, we're like, wow, 420 00:23:48,996 --> 00:23:52,876 Speaker 2: that really were you out to go walk around the garden? Yeah, 421 00:23:53,116 --> 00:23:56,996 Speaker 2: And that's how we feel about like nineteen ninety four. Oh, 422 00:23:57,076 --> 00:23:59,476 Speaker 2: we were thought we were really being really bad when 423 00:23:59,516 --> 00:24:01,876 Speaker 2: we did this. You were just talking with your boys 424 00:24:02,356 --> 00:24:06,076 Speaker 2: in the basement. How sweet, and you were just all 425 00:24:06,116 --> 00:24:08,796 Speaker 2: of you just talking about girls because you love God. 426 00:24:08,836 --> 00:24:10,196 Speaker 3: You know how sweet? 427 00:24:10,396 --> 00:24:12,596 Speaker 2: You know, like it feels that way, and I when 428 00:24:12,596 --> 00:24:15,756 Speaker 2: I think about it, it's very nostalgic of a time 429 00:24:15,836 --> 00:24:20,236 Speaker 2: gone by now and a way people might have reacted. 430 00:24:20,796 --> 00:24:26,076 Speaker 1: Oh that because the way as the hero goes on 431 00:24:26,116 --> 00:24:29,036 Speaker 1: his journey, as he's walking across the country, the country 432 00:24:29,076 --> 00:24:31,996 Speaker 1: is responding to him in a way they wouldn't respond today. 433 00:24:32,036 --> 00:24:34,036 Speaker 1: Is that your point that in a kind of internet 434 00:24:34,036 --> 00:24:35,276 Speaker 1: age it would be different. 435 00:24:35,796 --> 00:24:39,316 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so hard now to unwind it and think 436 00:24:39,476 --> 00:24:42,596 Speaker 2: of a moment when you didn't have access to every 437 00:24:42,636 --> 00:24:45,036 Speaker 2: piece of information in the history of man. 438 00:24:45,196 --> 00:24:46,836 Speaker 3: You don't know where your your. 439 00:24:46,916 --> 00:24:48,756 Speaker 2: Cousin is, and where your uncle is and where your 440 00:24:48,796 --> 00:24:51,516 Speaker 2: sister is right now. No, you don't write you know, 441 00:24:51,636 --> 00:24:54,876 Speaker 2: ninety four, we didn't know where anybody was right, and 442 00:24:55,076 --> 00:24:58,236 Speaker 2: you get a letter or you would if something happened, 443 00:24:58,276 --> 00:25:00,316 Speaker 2: it would take a while for you to find out 444 00:25:00,436 --> 00:25:04,796 Speaker 2: all of those ideas of being present. Primarily, it's gone. 445 00:25:04,916 --> 00:25:07,236 Speaker 2: Our understanding of what it is to be a human 446 00:25:07,316 --> 00:25:12,636 Speaker 2: being is on us gone because we're never just here anymore. 447 00:25:12,796 --> 00:25:15,796 Speaker 2: And this phone that's sitting near me as I'm doing 448 00:25:15,796 --> 00:25:17,676 Speaker 2: this podcast is pulling. 449 00:25:17,316 --> 00:25:20,356 Speaker 3: Me right now. I can feel it. It's pulling me. 450 00:25:20,916 --> 00:25:24,356 Speaker 2: So I'm partly here with you, but it's stolen my 451 00:25:24,476 --> 00:25:27,396 Speaker 2: soul a little bit, you know. And that was just 452 00:25:27,396 --> 00:25:31,956 Speaker 2: a different era, and that's all part of them, that 453 00:25:32,076 --> 00:25:34,516 Speaker 2: time period. When I you know, when I try to 454 00:25:34,636 --> 00:25:38,436 Speaker 2: rewrite it, when I'm trying to make it better, I'm 455 00:25:38,516 --> 00:25:42,116 Speaker 2: scarring it. It came out in one thing like that, 456 00:25:42,356 --> 00:25:45,236 Speaker 2: you know, as this kid was just feeling something. 457 00:25:46,116 --> 00:25:47,436 Speaker 1: When was the last time you read it? 458 00:25:48,796 --> 00:25:51,236 Speaker 3: I probably read it. 459 00:25:50,836 --> 00:25:55,956 Speaker 2: It came out a third time with this with this 460 00:25:56,076 --> 00:25:56,996 Speaker 2: particular actor. 461 00:25:57,396 --> 00:26:00,276 Speaker 3: A third time. It was four years ago. 462 00:26:00,316 --> 00:26:03,756 Speaker 2: So I read it four years ago, four years ago 463 00:26:03,836 --> 00:26:05,316 Speaker 2: when we talked about. 464 00:26:05,116 --> 00:26:08,796 Speaker 1: It again, what do the eyes you'll actually do it? 465 00:26:11,316 --> 00:26:12,876 Speaker 3: I'm just a strange creature. 466 00:26:12,956 --> 00:26:15,996 Speaker 2: Bro so if I say to you absolutely never, as 467 00:26:16,076 --> 00:26:17,956 Speaker 2: soon as a week click off here, I'll probably go 468 00:26:18,076 --> 00:26:18,716 Speaker 2: make it right. 469 00:26:19,036 --> 00:26:20,516 Speaker 3: I've thought about it a lot. 470 00:26:20,716 --> 00:26:24,156 Speaker 2: Do you do it more as a as a ritual 471 00:26:24,236 --> 00:26:27,356 Speaker 2: almost to honor that part of you in all of 472 00:26:27,476 --> 00:26:31,956 Speaker 2: us that came from a pure place, regardless of its success, 473 00:26:32,196 --> 00:26:34,156 Speaker 2: regardless of what would happen. 474 00:26:34,396 --> 00:26:36,076 Speaker 3: There is a kind of a. 475 00:26:35,836 --> 00:26:42,076 Speaker 2: Wise warning about labor of love, that there's something where 476 00:26:42,116 --> 00:26:45,476 Speaker 2: you're blind about the labor. Oh, I always wanted to 477 00:26:45,476 --> 00:26:47,796 Speaker 2: make that movie about blah blah blah whatever it is, 478 00:26:47,876 --> 00:26:49,076 Speaker 2: or I always wanted to write that thing. 479 00:26:49,476 --> 00:26:51,076 Speaker 3: It's a labor of love for me. 480 00:26:51,756 --> 00:26:56,796 Speaker 2: That automatically means you're blind a little bit. Some massive 481 00:26:57,076 --> 00:27:00,836 Speaker 2: you know, blind spot exists there. There is that wisdom 482 00:27:01,116 --> 00:27:03,036 Speaker 2: acumen to be careful of. 483 00:27:02,996 --> 00:27:03,996 Speaker 3: Your labor of loves. 484 00:27:04,116 --> 00:27:06,756 Speaker 2: That meant that you were you were kind of obsessed 485 00:27:06,756 --> 00:27:09,396 Speaker 2: in a way about something. I don't know if that's 486 00:27:09,436 --> 00:27:13,116 Speaker 2: the case here. I feel even as we talk about it, like, 487 00:27:13,436 --> 00:27:16,116 Speaker 2: you know, I could go do this in another year 488 00:27:16,236 --> 00:27:18,996 Speaker 2: and do exactly the way I said it. 489 00:27:18,996 --> 00:27:19,516 Speaker 3: It's funny. 490 00:27:19,556 --> 00:27:22,756 Speaker 2: I had this conversation with someone in my office about it. 491 00:27:22,796 --> 00:27:27,996 Speaker 2: I said, I don't know if the world even wants 492 00:27:28,036 --> 00:27:30,516 Speaker 2: to remember feeling this way anymore. 493 00:27:31,396 --> 00:27:34,556 Speaker 3: It's painful to remember that we used to feel this way, 494 00:27:34,676 --> 00:27:35,156 Speaker 3: and it. 495 00:27:35,036 --> 00:27:40,236 Speaker 2: Was was It was okay and wonderful and celebrated and calm. 496 00:27:40,556 --> 00:27:44,196 Speaker 1: When you say feel this way, you mean get swept 497 00:27:44,276 --> 00:27:46,156 Speaker 1: up in what that man was doing. 498 00:27:46,796 --> 00:27:50,396 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, this amount of the expression of love, you know, 499 00:27:50,716 --> 00:27:54,996 Speaker 2: whereas today it's our relationship to our emotions is so 500 00:27:56,476 --> 00:28:01,236 Speaker 2: being attacked. We're not supposed to have our own feeling anymore. 501 00:28:00,996 --> 00:28:06,756 Speaker 2: We're being manipulated by algorithms constantly and distraction, and so 502 00:28:08,156 --> 00:28:13,516 Speaker 2: the AI world is already deciding how we live and 503 00:28:13,596 --> 00:28:16,156 Speaker 2: experience our lives. And maybe that's the absolute reason to 504 00:28:16,196 --> 00:28:16,516 Speaker 2: make it. 505 00:28:16,596 --> 00:28:16,956 Speaker 3: I don't know. 506 00:28:17,116 --> 00:28:19,596 Speaker 2: As I'm talking to you, this is probably the deepest 507 00:28:19,596 --> 00:28:23,996 Speaker 2: conversation I've had about it, because it is it is 508 00:28:24,036 --> 00:28:26,436 Speaker 2: a kind of like are we still Are you still 509 00:28:26,476 --> 00:28:27,956 Speaker 2: torching yourself about this movie? 510 00:28:28,036 --> 00:28:28,196 Speaker 1: Bro? 511 00:28:28,316 --> 00:28:29,236 Speaker 3: After thirty years? 512 00:28:30,796 --> 00:28:34,796 Speaker 2: This odyssey is that there's been opportunities and there is 513 00:28:34,876 --> 00:28:39,236 Speaker 2: one now of a wonderful filmmaker that wants to make 514 00:28:39,276 --> 00:28:42,516 Speaker 2: it themselves the same story. 515 00:28:44,316 --> 00:28:45,716 Speaker 3: And whether I'm okay with. 516 00:28:45,636 --> 00:28:46,396 Speaker 1: That, are you? 517 00:28:51,076 --> 00:28:53,756 Speaker 3: Bro? I don't know. I don't know that feels like 518 00:28:57,196 --> 00:28:58,236 Speaker 3: I don't know, I don't know. 519 00:28:58,836 --> 00:29:01,156 Speaker 2: I'm almost shutting down when you're asking me that question, 520 00:29:04,036 --> 00:29:06,596 Speaker 2: and I haven't. Actually I've actually shut down in that 521 00:29:06,676 --> 00:29:07,476 Speaker 2: process too. 522 00:29:07,676 --> 00:29:08,876 Speaker 3: So you know this. 523 00:29:09,236 --> 00:29:12,156 Speaker 1: So someone just called you up and said someone famous 524 00:29:12,156 --> 00:29:15,676 Speaker 1: calls you up and says, night, I've read I've read 525 00:29:15,676 --> 00:29:19,236 Speaker 1: the secret screenplay. Yes, how did this person get a 526 00:29:19,236 --> 00:29:21,396 Speaker 1: hold of it? They just heard through the great thing. 527 00:29:21,716 --> 00:29:25,796 Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's happened before. It's happened before. Somebody wants 528 00:29:25,836 --> 00:29:29,076 Speaker 2: to make it. Every few years, somebody wants to make it. 529 00:29:29,236 --> 00:29:35,036 Speaker 2: And I could just let it go, just let it 530 00:29:35,076 --> 00:29:39,356 Speaker 2: go and and and let someone put their point of 531 00:29:39,396 --> 00:29:43,476 Speaker 2: view on love. So it's this screenplay that represents the 532 00:29:43,516 --> 00:29:47,036 Speaker 2: purest version of me that's on a page, and it 533 00:29:47,076 --> 00:29:50,316 Speaker 2: has been chasing me like a ghost or haunting me. 534 00:29:50,636 --> 00:29:54,956 Speaker 2: It started my career and I've got to do all 535 00:29:54,996 --> 00:29:59,116 Speaker 2: these amazing things. I continue to just have these incredible opportunities. 536 00:29:59,236 --> 00:30:02,876 Speaker 2: And really it's like a part of me that I 537 00:30:02,916 --> 00:30:06,676 Speaker 2: betrayed at one point, and now I can make it now. 538 00:30:07,236 --> 00:30:09,356 Speaker 2: I mean today, I can make it right now out 539 00:30:09,516 --> 00:30:13,356 Speaker 2: and I think probably with the same actor. And even 540 00:30:13,396 --> 00:30:16,036 Speaker 2: as you and I are sitting here I have all 541 00:30:16,116 --> 00:30:20,596 Speaker 2: these reasons that are holding me back. So I don't 542 00:30:20,596 --> 00:30:23,716 Speaker 2: know what this screenplay is to me and what this 543 00:30:23,796 --> 00:30:27,316 Speaker 2: movie is to me. Maybe it's the softest part of 544 00:30:27,356 --> 00:30:32,956 Speaker 2: me and so scared to show you guys that. 545 00:30:33,796 --> 00:30:35,956 Speaker 1: You said that your great fear at the time when 546 00:30:35,996 --> 00:30:39,916 Speaker 1: you wrote it was that you would never have anything 547 00:30:40,236 --> 00:30:45,796 Speaker 1: write anything so pure again. But listening to you, my 548 00:30:45,996 --> 00:30:53,156 Speaker 1: fear about it is that had you made it, then 549 00:30:53,796 --> 00:30:57,316 Speaker 1: what followed may not have happened. In other words, having 550 00:30:57,436 --> 00:31:02,836 Speaker 1: as one of your very first screenplay is something so perfect, 551 00:31:03,236 --> 00:31:09,356 Speaker 1: like fueled all of this extraordinary productivity that came afterwards, 552 00:31:09,596 --> 00:31:11,316 Speaker 1: And that had you made it and had it been 553 00:31:11,356 --> 00:31:13,956 Speaker 1: a big success, maybe you would have been kind of 554 00:31:13,956 --> 00:31:18,276 Speaker 1: paralyzed by that. Like the fact that it's it's unrealized 555 00:31:18,916 --> 00:31:23,196 Speaker 1: allows you to keep going and right if it's think 556 00:31:23,236 --> 00:31:25,836 Speaker 1: about the what is the curse of the one hit wonder? 557 00:31:26,156 --> 00:31:27,916 Speaker 1: The curse of the one hit wonder is someone who 558 00:31:28,036 --> 00:31:33,356 Speaker 1: is unlucky enough to have written their greatest song. First, 559 00:31:34,116 --> 00:31:37,236 Speaker 1: it's just bad luck, and everyone looks at the second 560 00:31:37,276 --> 00:31:39,436 Speaker 1: and the third ones and says it's over for you. Well, 561 00:31:39,476 --> 00:31:41,916 Speaker 1: it's not over for you. It's just out of order. Right, 562 00:31:42,316 --> 00:31:46,836 Speaker 1: whereas the same the same thing only put the one 563 00:31:46,916 --> 00:31:51,196 Speaker 1: hit Wonders breakthrough hit ten years into their career, and 564 00:31:51,276 --> 00:31:55,396 Speaker 1: we think, oh, what a progression right towards. 565 00:31:55,276 --> 00:31:57,196 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you know, for me, I keep you know, 566 00:31:57,476 --> 00:32:00,676 Speaker 2: maybe you're right, the unfinished nature of that is keep 567 00:32:00,916 --> 00:32:03,876 Speaker 2: driving me. You know, the movie I've just editing now 568 00:32:03,916 --> 00:32:07,116 Speaker 2: and finishing. When I think of it, I have a 569 00:32:07,116 --> 00:32:10,276 Speaker 2: little bit of magic feeling about it, and I'm like, oh, 570 00:32:10,436 --> 00:32:12,876 Speaker 2: this is reminding me of labor of love. When it's 571 00:32:12,916 --> 00:32:16,476 Speaker 2: feeling effortless and right, You're going, well, where did that 572 00:32:16,516 --> 00:32:17,076 Speaker 2: come from? 573 00:32:17,796 --> 00:32:19,836 Speaker 3: How do you do that? And you're like, oh, yeah, 574 00:32:19,876 --> 00:32:21,196 Speaker 3: that's how it felt to twenty two. 575 00:32:21,876 --> 00:32:25,716 Speaker 1: But then here's the other fear I have that what 576 00:32:25,796 --> 00:32:29,116 Speaker 1: if you made it and it wasn't magical, then you 577 00:32:29,156 --> 00:32:31,756 Speaker 1: wouldn't have You would also have destroyed this thing that 578 00:32:31,796 --> 00:32:34,276 Speaker 1: you've been able to look at throughout your entire career. 579 00:32:34,476 --> 00:32:36,396 Speaker 2: Well, I can tell you if I at twenty two, 580 00:32:36,436 --> 00:32:39,196 Speaker 2: I wouldn't have made it a particularly great movie that 581 00:32:39,436 --> 00:32:42,996 Speaker 2: at that moment, I think we've been you know, up 582 00:32:43,076 --> 00:32:45,676 Speaker 2: and down, flawed and this and that, And then when 583 00:32:45,676 --> 00:32:48,116 Speaker 2: we jumped forward to the first time with that, the 584 00:32:48,156 --> 00:32:53,676 Speaker 2: most incredible actor. I wasn't in the right emotional space 585 00:32:54,396 --> 00:32:58,236 Speaker 2: to have made it properly. Now that we're really getting 586 00:32:58,236 --> 00:33:00,796 Speaker 2: serious about it, Yeah, so that wouldn't have worked out either, 587 00:33:00,796 --> 00:33:03,796 Speaker 2: because I just was not where I am right now. 588 00:33:05,076 --> 00:33:07,716 Speaker 1: One last question, what is your What does your wife 589 00:33:07,756 --> 00:33:10,276 Speaker 1: say this president the creation? 590 00:33:11,676 --> 00:33:14,276 Speaker 3: That's a great question, I would. 591 00:33:14,476 --> 00:33:19,276 Speaker 2: I think she's seen me torture myself for thirty years about. 592 00:33:18,956 --> 00:33:20,556 Speaker 3: This in her mind. 593 00:33:20,596 --> 00:33:22,356 Speaker 2: You know, for a while she kept asking me why 594 00:33:22,396 --> 00:33:23,796 Speaker 2: do you keep killing off the wife? 595 00:33:23,956 --> 00:33:25,356 Speaker 3: You know, like in signs. 596 00:33:25,036 --> 00:33:29,316 Speaker 2: And He's like, why do you keep killing off the wives? 597 00:33:29,356 --> 00:33:32,556 Speaker 2: And I'm like, no, no, no, it's because I'm so 598 00:33:32,716 --> 00:33:35,476 Speaker 2: scared to lose you. You know, she knows I wrote 599 00:33:35,516 --> 00:33:37,556 Speaker 2: it for her, and so it's kind of already in 600 00:33:37,596 --> 00:33:38,116 Speaker 2: our lives. 601 00:33:38,236 --> 00:33:41,516 Speaker 3: Is it already happened? It already existed, and what was 602 00:33:41,556 --> 00:33:43,196 Speaker 3: made and was so lovely? 603 00:33:43,316 --> 00:33:45,596 Speaker 2: You know. I have this check from back when we 604 00:33:45,676 --> 00:33:48,756 Speaker 2: used to get checks and from twenty century Fox, and 605 00:33:48,836 --> 00:33:51,116 Speaker 2: it was my first check that I got, and I 606 00:33:51,116 --> 00:33:54,476 Speaker 2: have it framed. It's in my office, so it's if 607 00:33:54,516 --> 00:33:56,716 Speaker 2: you come to my office, which you will, and it's there, 608 00:33:56,876 --> 00:33:59,796 Speaker 2: and then if you go into the cafeteria. There's a 609 00:33:59,916 --> 00:34:03,716 Speaker 2: poster of a mock up of a poster the twenty 610 00:34:03,716 --> 00:34:06,756 Speaker 2: century Fox made for Labor of Love, and that's hanging 611 00:34:06,796 --> 00:34:08,876 Speaker 2: on my wall, so on my walls all the movies. 612 00:34:08,916 --> 00:34:10,876 Speaker 2: I'm mad in a movie that wasn't me. 613 00:34:11,916 --> 00:34:15,316 Speaker 1: It's your own ghost. You've you've created your own ghost. 614 00:34:19,076 --> 00:34:19,236 Speaker 2: Night. 615 00:34:19,276 --> 00:34:21,196 Speaker 1: This has been so much fun. Thank you so much. 616 00:34:21,636 --> 00:34:23,156 Speaker 1: I really really really enjoyed this. 617 00:34:23,796 --> 00:34:25,276 Speaker 3: You're so lovely. Thank you for having me. 618 00:34:26,756 --> 00:34:29,396 Speaker 2: I was learning something about myself too as we were talking. 619 00:34:29,396 --> 00:34:31,516 Speaker 2: You're a good therapist, man. I was starting to get there. 620 00:34:42,316 --> 00:34:45,636 Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Nina Bird, Lawrence, and Tali Emen, 621 00:34:45,996 --> 00:34:50,276 Speaker 1: with ben at Alphaffrey, editing by Sarah Nix, original scoring 622 00:34:50,316 --> 00:34:54,156 Speaker 1: by Luis Gara, Engineering by Eco Mountain. Our executive producer 623 00:34:54,476 --> 00:35:10,196 Speaker 1: is Jacob Smith. I'm Malcolm Glamo.