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Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,

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Speaker 1: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

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Speaker 1: it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true

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Speaker 2: crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker and I head

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Speaker 2: up KAT Studios, where we make true crime podcasts like

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Speaker 2: In Cells out now on iHeart and The Idaho Massacre

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Speaker 2: season three also out now on iHeart, and I get

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Speaker 2: to do that every night with my true crime mates

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Speaker 2: Courtney Armstrong and Body move In. Happy Sunday Ladies, Hello, Hello,

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Speaker 2: Happy Sunday Sunday.

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Speaker 3: Glad to be back. We are kicking off the week

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Speaker 3: or ending the weekend.

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Speaker 2: I'm never quite sure with if you're having like the

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Speaker 2: Sunday Blues or anything like that.

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Speaker 3: Settle in.

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Speaker 2: You are safe. You are with us because it's Scientific Sunday.

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Speaker 2: And of course, the great forensics expert and host of

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Speaker 2: the true crime podcast Body Bags, Joseph Scott Morgan is

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Speaker 2: here with us tonight, Jo.

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Speaker 3: Scott, Joe Scott Exactly.

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Speaker 2: I feel like we need a little smoke machine or

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Speaker 2: some sort of like a forensic spotlight maybe sort of

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Speaker 2: like a like a.

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Speaker 3: Disco lamp or something.

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Speaker 4: Let's pretend.

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Speaker 3: No twirling required. Well, and guess what it is.

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Speaker 2: Sunday, October twelfth would have been my father's birthday, So

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Speaker 2: a happy.

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Speaker 3: Birthday to him. Happy And we have a very stack

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Speaker 3: night of headlines.

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Speaker 2: So we talked about this last week, but there has

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Speaker 2: in fact been an arrest in the Palisades fire in California.

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Speaker 2: You guys may remember that from January seventh, and the

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Speaker 2: forensics are very complicated. He appeared in court, he has

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Speaker 2: pled not guilty, and Joseph is here to kind to

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Speaker 2: break down some of the very interesting things around Pyro

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Speaker 2: in general and the forensics to that. Also, you know

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Speaker 2: that wife who has now been found guilty for killing

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Speaker 2: her fifth husband. The forensics in that also very complicated,

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Speaker 2: and Joseph's going to break that down for us. In

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Speaker 2: just one note, we had a very beloved prosecutor on

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Speaker 2: our show for several seasons of the Idaho massacre Courtney.

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Speaker 2: Of course you'll remember him well, Stephen Greenberg. Yeah, he

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Speaker 2: passed away and his service was today and he's a

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Speaker 2: beloved member of the KT family. As a contributor and

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Speaker 2: our hearts go out to his family and.

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Speaker 5: Just a brilliant funny man.

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Speaker 3: Yeah that's crap, that's what he would say.

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Speaker 2: But he was one of the true finest and we're

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Speaker 2: so lucky to have had him on our podcast, and

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Speaker 2: much more good things to come for his family. So

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Speaker 2: without further ado, let's kick into all Things Forensics.

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Speaker 3: Also, Tah is not here for the e but we do.

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Speaker 2: Have our associate producer Ava Kaplan jumping into the hot

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Speaker 2: seat and she is running the show tonight, of course

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Speaker 2: with Adam and Sam. And here we are everybody happy Sunday.

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Speaker 2: Pull up a proverbial chair to our kitchen table. We

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Speaker 2: are so happy to be talking forensics. So Courtney, why

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Speaker 2: don't you kick us off to All Things Palisades.

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Speaker 5: Yeah? Absolutely.

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Speaker 6: Jonathan rindernickt he's a twenty nine year old and he

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Speaker 6: has indeed been arrested. He has been charged with starting

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Speaker 6: the Lachman Fire, and that is the fire that ultimately

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Speaker 6: led to that destructive, apocalyptic and deadly Palisades fire that

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Speaker 6: was earlier this year, that was January seventh, when it

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Speaker 6: began to spread. It ultimately did become one of the

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Speaker 6: most devastating fires in Los Angeles County history. Twelve people

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Speaker 6: were killed, thousands of structures were destroyed, but the initially

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Speaker 6: sparked smaller fire again. The Lachman Fire is believed to

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Speaker 6: have smoldered underground for multiple days before reigniting, and it

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Speaker 6: reignited due to high winds.

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Speaker 3: I two of them. That was possible.

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Speaker 6: I didn't either learn I learned that last week as well.

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Speaker 6: So rinder Neckt was arrested at his home in Melbourne, Florida, Tuesday,

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Speaker 6: October seventh. That's when the charges came down destruction of

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Speaker 6: property by means of fire, and he allegedly lied to

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Speaker 6: police when he had a January twenty fourth interview about

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Speaker 6: his whereabouts on the day of the fire.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, we suspected him early on.

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Speaker 5: Yep, they sure did.

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Speaker 7: Interesting, that's so he lied. So what twenty fourth was

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Speaker 7: what twenty one? Three weeks after the fire started they

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Speaker 7: had a suspect in mind?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, not even because it really burst into flames on

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Speaker 6: the seventh and then by the twenty fourth.

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Speaker 3: Yeah right, so even less? Wow?

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Speaker 6: Okay, And at his court appearance in Orlando on Wednesday,

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Speaker 6: October eighth, we found out that if convicted, he faces

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Speaker 6: a mandatory of five years and up to twenty years

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Speaker 6: in a federal prison, which I'm flummoxed, like I want

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Speaker 6: to have a legal expert on because I don't understand

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Speaker 6: since twelve people lost their lives how that could cap

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Speaker 6: at twenty But that's for a legal mind and not mine.

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Speaker 6: Right In any case, this is, you know, forensically complicated,

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Speaker 6: and Joseph, we wanted you to hop in with you know,

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Speaker 6: what are your first thoughts? Yeah?

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Speaker 4: Sure, thanks for having me, guys again, favorite night of

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Speaker 4: the week.

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Speaker 3: We love you.

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Speaker 4: I'm finally, I'm finally at the cool kids table.

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Speaker 3: You are the cool kid. Come on, you're the Charlie

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Speaker 3: to our angels.

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Speaker 4: There you go, all right, angels, here we go. Okay,

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Speaker 4: this is what can I address that? First, the first

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Speaker 4: point that you made about the federal charges, so that

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Speaker 4: everyone understands homicide charges are generally state charges, all right,

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Speaker 4: So unless there's some kind of special agreement that the

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Speaker 4: state is entered into with the FEDS or the Fed

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Speaker 4: or vice versa, s guy could still be looking at

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Speaker 4: state homicide charges, all right, totally different animal, and he

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Speaker 4: could be looking at twelve counts. And that's something that

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Speaker 4: is going to have to end, I know what's going

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Speaker 4: on in the mind of the prosecutors right now, probably,

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Speaker 4: and I'm talking about a state level. To decide whether

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Speaker 4: or not they're going to charge this guy with multiple

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Speaker 4: counts of homicide, They're going to have to get the

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Speaker 4: through line here on causality and if they can specifically

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Speaker 4: tie back these deaths to that fire, and can that fire,

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Speaker 4: even though it was set many days for prior, can

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Speaker 4: that specifically be tied back to that event? And it

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Speaker 4: does get very complex from that perspective, I think that

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Speaker 4: the defense, there's a chance that the defense is going

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Speaker 4: to have a field day with this relative to linkage.

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Speaker 4: And if this is, of course, if it's in the

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Speaker 4: federal court, which it would be on the federal Arts

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Speaker 4: and charges, there's not going to be cameras. You're just

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Speaker 4: gonna be relying on pool reporters that are coming out

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Speaker 4: and giving the narration. Okay, and we've seen that over

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Speaker 4: and over again. However, if this were state prosecution, you

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Speaker 4: would see a parade of scientists on the stands here,

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Speaker 4: because this whole case is completely reliant upon fire science, which,

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Speaker 4: by the way, fire investigators ars investigators are some of

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Speaker 4: the unsung heroes in forensics. You don't hear a lot

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Speaker 4: about them, and people generally don't associate them with forensics.

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Speaker 4: And they are the most forensic key people in the world,

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Speaker 4: all right, because they have a grasp of the nature

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Speaker 4: of fire. They have an unbelievable understanding of chemistry, which

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Speaker 4: would put most lab chemistry shame, because they see it

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Speaker 4: happening in the real world with application. And so this

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Speaker 4: is going to be a case key if you like

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Speaker 4: science and you've ever been interested in fire science, this

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Speaker 4: is going to be the case to watch because look, man,

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Speaker 4: this impacted so many people and people that we dearly love,

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Speaker 4: right and so, and it has left a scar there.

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Speaker 4: And the important piece here, though, is linkage and being

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Speaker 4: able to explain the nature fire and how could it smallder.

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Speaker 4: You've heard the old poem, I guess it is I

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Speaker 4: may have recited before. I'm not going to go through

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Speaker 4: the whole thing, but you know, the idea for the

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Speaker 4: want of a nail, the shoe was lost for the

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Speaker 4: warm shoe, horse was lost. That's sort of things. So

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Speaker 4: the question is, I think it might be too philosophical,

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Speaker 4: but if he had never set this fire to begin

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Speaker 4: with with these people have perished, would all of this

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Speaker 4: property have been damaged? And so you've got to go

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Speaker 4: back to the causal factors here, and that's where science

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Speaker 4: is going to paint this picture. And you know, color

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Speaker 4: in the numbers that that's that's what you're looking at here.

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Speaker 7: Wow, well that's going to be really fascinating to hear,

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Speaker 7: because like, not only am I interested in the science,

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Speaker 7: but you know, I'm interested in the science of people

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Speaker 7: who do commit arsons too.

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Speaker 3: So there's it's too right, the.

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Speaker 7: Science behind the fire itself and the evidence that to

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Speaker 7: suggest that he's the culprit. And number two, why something

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Speaker 7: like this that like what kind of person is interested

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Speaker 7: in arson?

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Speaker 3: This is true?

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Speaker 7: Criston I and on iHeartRadio on Body Moved, and I'm

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Speaker 7: here with Stephanie Leidecker and Courtney Armstrong and we are

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Speaker 7: so lucky enough to be joined by Joseph Scott Morgan,

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Speaker 7: forensics expert. We're right in the middle of talking about

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Speaker 7: the Pacific Palisades fire and the suspect that was just arrested,

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Speaker 7: and we have a talk back? Can we go ahead

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Speaker 7: and go to that talkback?

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Speaker 8: Hi, I wanted to call in about the Palisades fire. Conversation.

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Speaker 8: I study fire, and I think what happened here is

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Speaker 8: the previous with pew weds. You had a lot you'll

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Speaker 8: build up, and then you had those Santa Ana wins

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Speaker 8: bring some pretty extreme weather conditions. And then when you

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Speaker 8: have fires that are in the wildland urban interface, where

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Speaker 8: human infrastructure meets natural lands, that's when you tend to

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Speaker 8: see some pretty wild and extreme fires that get out

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Speaker 8: of hand as homes and everything act as fuels as well.

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Speaker 8: And so that's definitely what happened here.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, I never thought so where the wildlife meets infrastructure,

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Speaker 7: that's that's interesting.

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Speaker 4: It's really yeah. And you know, and again not living

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Speaker 4: in the region, but just having friends that have experienced

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Speaker 4: it all over the West. I've had friends in Oregon, Washington, Idaho.

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Speaker 4: I mean that have you seen these raging fires coming

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Speaker 4: at them? Is stuff of nightmares many times when we

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Speaker 4: look at arson. One of the particularly with structure fires,

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Speaker 4: we're looking for and I'm talking about the science of

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Speaker 4: how they're investigated, We're looking for the points of origin. Okay,

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Speaker 4: so was an accelerant used. An accelerant is different than

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Speaker 4: a fuel. So if you think about the accelerant being

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Speaker 4: a starter for the fire. So do you know that

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Speaker 4: we can actually go into homes and if someone has

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Speaker 4: taken like a cup of gasoline or a gallon gasoline

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Speaker 4: and splashed it on a wall and they ignite, that

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Speaker 4: we can actually see the splash patterns on the wall

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Speaker 4: that are outlined by where the fire fire passed through.

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Speaker 4: And the tough thing about fire scenes is this, and

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Speaker 4: this is coming from a non arson guy, but a

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Speaker 4: forensic scientist that examines dead bodies of victims and fires.

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Speaker 4: When I walk into a scene, into a fire scene,

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Speaker 4: everything looks the same to me. It's it is one

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Speaker 4: of the most mind blowing experiences.

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Speaker 7: And you've investigated scenes, right like you've you have real

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Speaker 7: world experience doings.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've had. I've had both accidental fires

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Speaker 4: and intentionally set fires where you know, the fire, the

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Speaker 4: fire essentially replaced a gun or you know, replaced a

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Speaker 4: bludgeon or a knife fire.

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Speaker 3: Yeah yeah.

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Speaker 4: And so you've got multiple people that are out there

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Speaker 4: that set fires for a variety of different There can

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Speaker 4: be a sexual motivation with fire. Actually, I talked to

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Speaker 4: a firefighter many years ago that went arrived at the

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Speaker 4: scene of a fire, a fully involved hot house fire

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Speaker 4: with a family inside of the house and there was

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Speaker 4: a man nude in the street and he had set

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Speaker 4: set fire to the house and he was watching the

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Speaker 4: house burn. So you never know what anybody's motivation is.

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Speaker 4: You have financial gain, you can have you know, people

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Speaker 4: that intentionally want to take somebody's life, and fire setters

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Speaker 4: are different. They I would almost put them in a

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Speaker 4: category with poisoners almost because they're very stealthy. They most

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Speaker 4: of the time they want to set a fire and

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Speaker 4: get away from it, you know, like a poisoner. You know,

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Speaker 4: we think about the lady down in Australia with the

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Speaker 4: beef Wellington, you know where they're subjecting. You know, she's

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Speaker 4: and she wants to put distance between herself and that event.

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Speaker 4: Same thing here, you know, because you know, the thing

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Speaker 4: about this is many people don't think about is that

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Speaker 4: when you set a fire many times in order to

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Speaker 4: destroy evidence, you're actually creating more evidence because you get

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Speaker 4: the arson investigators in there and they can read things

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Speaker 4: that we can't even begin to imagine the path of fire,

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Speaker 4: point of origin. So it really gets granular after a while.

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Speaker 4: And that's what this palisats fire in particular, the Lockman

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Speaker 4: fire that wound up wrecking the Palisades is going to

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Speaker 4: be something. I'll put it to you this way. This

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Speaker 4: is so extensive and there's been so much damage here,

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Speaker 4: and we have all these precious lives that have been lost.

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Speaker 4: This is the kind of case that we'll be talked

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Speaker 4: about and studied in colleges everywhere.

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Speaker 6: Wow, just to underline the devastation. In addition to and

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Speaker 6: on top of the twelve people who lost their life,

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Speaker 6: almost seven thousand.

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Speaker 5: Structures were destroyed demolished.

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Speaker 6: And this caused eighteen to twenty billion with a bee

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Speaker 6: eighteen to twenty billion dollars.

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Speaker 5: In insured losses.

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Speaker 6: I mean how that is going to change the infrastructure

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Speaker 6: and is changing the infrastructure of insurance and home building.

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Speaker 6: I mean the ripple effect, as we always talk about,

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Speaker 6: is incredibly wide.

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Speaker 3: Wow, that's astronomical.

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Speaker 7: And not only that, maybe people lost their homes, their pets,

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Speaker 7: their livelihood in some cases, like if they're work burned down,

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Speaker 7: like this is economically horrible and personally right, Like it's

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Speaker 7: just an absolute devastation. So yeah, there should be some

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Speaker 7: kind of state charges brought up with this guy for homicide.

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Speaker 3: You know, there's got to be something when.

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Speaker 7: We come back, We're going to continue to keep talking

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Speaker 7: about the Palasides. We're going to get into some of

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Speaker 7: the nitty gritty arson forensics and a possible serial killer

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Speaker 7: in Texas people are speculating. Keep it right here a

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Speaker 7: True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

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Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here as

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Speaker 2: always with my true crime mates, Courtney Armstrong, body move

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Speaker 2: in here. On Scientific Sunday with Joseph Scott Morgan. He

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Speaker 2: is back with us breaking down some of the forensics

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Speaker 2: in this case, specifically around the Pacific Palisades fire that

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Speaker 2: happened on January seventh. Nearly seven thousands homes were destroyed,

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Speaker 2: an entire town wiped out, and yeah, twelve incredible souls

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Speaker 2: have lost their lives in this fire, and it appears

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Speaker 2: that a person's been identified as a potential arsonist who

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Speaker 2: may have started this intentionally.

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Speaker 3: It's a tough one.

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Speaker 2: Hearing you guys even talk during the first segment is

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Speaker 2: a little bit of an out of body experience for me,

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Speaker 2: since I personally was really affected by.

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Speaker 3: The Palisades fire.

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Speaker 2: As I look around everything in my life is different

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Speaker 2: because of it, and I had it better than so many.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, if it's one guy, it's pretty shocking and

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Speaker 2: I have to hope that they have real forensics to

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Speaker 2: back it when I go down the rabbit hole Joseph,

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Speaker 2: all I see is a photograph that he did on

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Speaker 2: AI chatchpt of a dystopian picture. This gets thrown around

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Speaker 2: a lot dystopian meeting like a future time. There seemed

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Speaker 2: to be people running from a fire and some dollar

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Speaker 2: signs involved. Also, yes, some misinformation in terms of where

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Speaker 2: he was. He was also googling or chat gpting after

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Speaker 2: the fires about whether or not a cigarette but could

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Speaker 2: light a fire. Perhaps that would either show investigators that

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Speaker 2: it was just not intentional to you know, cover his tracks,

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Speaker 2: or just weird timing. Also a couple of notable things

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Speaker 2: that I think is at least worth exploring if in

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Speaker 2: fact this is true, that he was one of the

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Speaker 2: nine to one to one callers for the fire that

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Speaker 2: he allegedly started, and even offered to help law enforcement

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Speaker 2: in firefighters fight said fire that he allegedly started.

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Speaker 3: That's a tough one.

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Speaker 2: You know, there's a psychological profile to be looked into,

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Speaker 2: for sure. In that front. Yeah, and you hear five

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Speaker 2: years it's a tough one. I've ever been so close

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Speaker 2: to something. So I'm actually gonna like zip it because

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Speaker 2: it does sort of put a like a golf ball

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Speaker 2: in my throat. Just even talking about it on our

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Speaker 2: show seems like wild, just so wild. I dip from

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Speaker 2: a distance, and I hope I'm wrong. Doesn't retalalyst seem

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Speaker 2: that there's enough there to accuse entirely this one person,

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Speaker 2: although to your earlier point, yeah, law enforcement appears to

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Speaker 2: have been on him pretty quickly. They rated his place

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Speaker 2: in Hollywood, he did seemingly have some ties to the

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Speaker 2: Palisades and was living in Florida when he was arrested.

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Speaker 2: So I guess it's a really we shall see. But man,

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Speaker 2: you know, it's nine months ago. How you possibly have

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Speaker 2: enough information to make sure that this in fact was a.

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Speaker 3: One man job?

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Speaker 2: And is it possible that if it was that one man,

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Speaker 2: was he doing one thing and it escalated into something

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Speaker 2: so much greater where the tension I have to assume

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Speaker 2: was not to commit something that affected so many so deeply.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I can't imagine that, you know, if you're an arsonist,

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Speaker 4: all right, which is what he's being accused of. That

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Speaker 4: merely flipping out the butt of your not crushed out

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Speaker 4: Marlborough on side of the road is going to you know,

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Speaker 4: it's going to ignite something like this. And again this

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Speaker 4: goes to intent, doesn't it. And that's you know, that's

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Speaker 4: the lawyer's you know, arena, and they're going to have

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Speaker 4: to go hard and the paint relative to that try

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Speaker 4: to prove his intent. You don't have to prove motive,

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Speaker 4: as everybody people always need to remember that, you know,

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Speaker 4: when we say why, the why is not important. It's

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Speaker 4: the who, who, what, when, where and how? And that's

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Speaker 4: you know, that's what's going to put somebody behind bars.

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Speaker 4: I think you know what's going to be interesting about

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Speaker 4: this case is the car. The car to me is

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Speaker 4: going to hold a lot of data. It's not just

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Speaker 4: his phone, but he's working for Uber, right, you know

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Speaker 4: what methodologies are they using to track their drivers? Is

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Speaker 4: there some type of proprietary program that they use that

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Speaker 4: will be kind of woven into the tapestry of this,

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Speaker 4: you know. And plus here's something really intriguing. You've got

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Speaker 4: apparently a couple of witnesses and correct me if I'm wrong.

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Speaker 4: They're like agitated. I mean they stated that he was agitate.

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Speaker 2: It was agitated, correct, Yeah, they were the passengers in

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Speaker 2: his car, in his vehicle, just you know, right before

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Speaker 2: the Lachman fire was started on New Year's Eve, which

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Speaker 2: I guess New Year's Day was around midnight, he allegedly

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Speaker 2: walked up and you know, lit a match while listening

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Speaker 2: to some French like French like disco tunes basically where

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Speaker 2: the video of that said French tune has fire involved.

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Speaker 2: And he has French heritage. His father is from friends

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Speaker 2: and his parents were overseas. They're like Baptist missionaries, so

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Speaker 2: you know, some of them doesn't.

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Speaker 3: Totally add up. Allegedly, he had an.

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Speaker 2: Issue with his ex girlfriend and they had just broken

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Speaker 2: up and he was broken hearted. And again all of

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Speaker 2: this is like a small thing compared to the destruction

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Speaker 2: that he's now been accused of.

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Speaker 4: Well, I think that back again, back to his vehicle.

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Speaker 4: Was there anything in his vehicle that could have tied

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Speaker 4: him back? And I know this is going to seem

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Speaker 4: rather obvious. Did he actually smoke? And because I can

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Speaker 4: tell you, let's just say that he did smoke, and

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Speaker 4: you have you know, and we're talking about cigarette butt here,

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Speaker 4: which has happened before. There have been wildfire started by

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Speaker 4: cigarette buds. You know, they've been thumped out of windows

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Speaker 4: and that sort of thing over the years. There would

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Speaker 4: be no remnant of that left all right, even with

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Speaker 4: a filter. You know, it's going to be gone by

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Speaker 4: this point in tom. But did he have anything else

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Speaker 4: in the vehicle that would physical evidence that would have

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Speaker 4: been there that would have given them an indication, So

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Speaker 4: they would have examined him stem to stern that vehicle

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Speaker 4: and also his home. You know, he's you know, he's

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Speaker 4: got a place there and any kind of his writings

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Speaker 4: that he you know, has he been fantasizing about this?

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Speaker 4: This is you know, I guess somebody is. Somebody might

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Speaker 4: say you could develop malicious intent in the twinkling of

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Speaker 4: an eye, But has this something he's been fantasized because

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Speaker 4: this is very specific. And here's another thing you should

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Speaker 4: know better. You live there and you see the terror

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Speaker 4: that these fires create. You know that it's a tinder

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Speaker 4: box at any moment in time. So I think that

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Speaker 4: that's going to be a big part of it as well.

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Speaker 9: Uh.

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Speaker 4: One of the tough things is is that you know,

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Speaker 4: I talk I've talked about previously on Sunday Nights with

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Speaker 4: you guys about primary, secondary, tertiary scenes. This is a

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Speaker 4: weird kind of mix here because if you think about

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Speaker 4: where the fire was in initiated, I think it was

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Speaker 4: like at the like a trailhead, you know, in one

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Speaker 4: of the camps. So if you if you think about

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Speaker 4: the primary scene, I think traditionally we would think that

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Speaker 4: that would be the spot. Okay, how do you delineate

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Speaker 4: between something that may have initiated five days earlier, its

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Speaker 4: smoldered and then roared its head again. You know, I

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Speaker 4: would think that in a primary area like that, after

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Speaker 4: five days the fires died down, would there have been

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Speaker 4: any new growth there where? Maybe initially some of the

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Speaker 4: some of the the flora had been you know, killed

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Speaker 4: killed off. Was there something that sprouted up in the

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Speaker 4: meantime where you could go back and maybe identify I

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Speaker 4: don't I don't really know. Uh, they'll be taking soil samples.

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Speaker 4: I'd be interested to know if there were any kind

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Speaker 4: of flammables in the soil at all. Would have gone

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Speaker 4: out to do this And by the way, a big

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Speaker 4: shout out to the ATF investigators here. Oh yeah, This

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Speaker 4: is a big deal and they are the best at

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Speaker 4: what they do. People don't think about the ATF and arson,

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Speaker 4: but this is really their Bailey Wick when it comes

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Speaker 4: to fire, fire and explosions, they are the top of

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Speaker 4: the heap. And this is these are federal charges. This

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Speaker 4: is a full core press on this. I guarantee you

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Speaker 4: they had boots on the ground. They're working and man,

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Speaker 4: you talk about a massive scene. This thing is massive.

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Speaker 4: Uh there's you don't have enough people to be able

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Speaker 4: to work the whole thing, so they're gonna be concentrating

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Speaker 4: on that one specific spot and then to see if

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Speaker 4: there's a secondary area where it blazed up. I'm thinking,

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Speaker 4: are there any holes in the ground that may have

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Speaker 4: you know, where you could catch this breeze. They talked

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Speaker 4: about the sant Anna Wins just a few months ago,

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Speaker 4: where it was just kind of smoldering over a period

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Speaker 4: of time. You catch this these coals that are beneath

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Speaker 4: the ground, and suddenly this thing blows out again. It

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Speaker 4: catches the fire takes I mean, the wind takes a way.

437
00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:03,919
Speaker 4: You've gotten to bree blowing through the air. And the

438
00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:07,479
Speaker 4: talk back was really fascinating because you're talking about hitting

439
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:11,280
Speaker 4: man made structures. Listen, Yeah, you've got brittal grass and

440
00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:13,920
Speaker 4: brush and all that stuff out there. But man, you

441
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:17,240
Speaker 4: get into a house, a framed out house with wood,

442
00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:20,639
Speaker 4: our shingles, that sort of thing, and it's it's going

443
00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:24,320
Speaker 4: to light up like nobody's business out there. So that's

444
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:27,880
Speaker 4: very interesting. We'll see, we'll see where it leads relative

445
00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:28,280
Speaker 4: to this.

446
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:29,760
Speaker 5: That's right.

447
00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:32,720
Speaker 6: I have a question for you, Joseph, and if anyone

448
00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:36,399
Speaker 6: else does want to ask our forensic expert Joseph Scott

449
00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:39,360
Speaker 6: Morgan a question, give us a call. Eighty eight three

450
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:42,040
Speaker 6: to one crime. This is true Crime Tonight. Tonight is

451
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:45,600
Speaker 6: Scientific Sunday, and Joseph is here to answer all your

452
00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:53,280
Speaker 6: forensic questions. We're currently talking about the Palisades fire and

453
00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:57,400
Speaker 6: that there is a suspect in custody. So I had

454
00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:03,639
Speaker 6: a question for the room. I guess allegedly rendernecked. The

455
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:07,359
Speaker 6: guy who is in custody is accused of using quote

456
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:14,240
Speaker 6: an open flame, which yeah, must have must have specific meaning, right,

457
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:17,040
Speaker 6: I mean, would a cigarette be an open flame?

458
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:22,040
Speaker 7: They found a lighter in his glove box that's like

459
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:25,520
Speaker 7: one of those barbecue style lighters, and apparently he also

460
00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:29,240
Speaker 7: took a picture or a video of this lighter on

461
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:32,600
Speaker 7: December thirty first, which is kind of weird that you

462
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:37,199
Speaker 7: would take a video of a lighter right before, you know,

463
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:41,639
Speaker 7: possibly setting this fire and listening to this rap song

464
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:46,160
Speaker 7: by the way, obsessively this video where fires are ring set.

465
00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:50,119
Speaker 7: He apparently listened to it like twelve or thirteen times

466
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:51,600
Speaker 7: before he set the well before.

467
00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:54,320
Speaker 3: He allegedly, allegedly allegedly set this fire.

468
00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:58,080
Speaker 7: And they found this barbecue style lighter in his in

469
00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:01,880
Speaker 7: his glove compartment, and again it matched the photo from

470
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:04,880
Speaker 7: his phone on December thirty first. So I think they

471
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:08,240
Speaker 7: think Courtney. I think maybe Joseph can tell us if

472
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:10,360
Speaker 7: there's a way to prove it, but I think they

473
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:12,719
Speaker 7: think it was an open flame from the lighter.

474
00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:15,320
Speaker 2: By the way, though, I'm just gonna jump in here. Yeah,

475
00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:18,680
Speaker 2: So this guy starts a fire in the Lochman Trails.

476
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:21,320
Speaker 2: If you don't know Los Angeles, it's not near the

477
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:25,080
Speaker 2: Palisades specifically, it had to travel a great distance. Now

478
00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:28,320
Speaker 2: we're talking six days later, the Palisades where I lived

479
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:33,199
Speaker 2: explodes and is exonerated. There's a piece of me that

480
00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:37,200
Speaker 2: also and go for me, I kind of called bs

481
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 2: on it a little bit. We're gonna blame all of

482
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:43,639
Speaker 2: this destruction on this one random guy based on his photographs.

483
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:47,160
Speaker 2: By the way, nobody wants it to be answered more

484
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:49,719
Speaker 2: than me, I'm sure, but in the spirit of like

485
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:53,879
Speaker 2: clear minds, like justice, I don't know. It seems like

486
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:56,160
Speaker 2: a little bit of a leap, and I would imagine

487
00:26:56,160 --> 00:27:00,480
Speaker 2: the science to back this must be extraordinary, because it's

488
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:04,000
Speaker 2: a pretty good distance for you know, said fire to

489
00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:10,160
Speaker 2: go underground, to ignite an entire town and decimated six

490
00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 2: days later without warning because of a weather event of

491
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 2: Santa Annas that none of us were prepared for. I'm

492
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:21,239
Speaker 2: gonna call it curious. It just seems curious, and I

493
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:24,439
Speaker 2: hope they have enough to prove it. And if this

494
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:27,199
Speaker 2: guy is the guy, then yeah, he's a real sicko

495
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:30,320
Speaker 2: beyond measure and should do a lot of time.

496
00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 7: But if this gives you any any relief, Stephanie. They

497
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 7: prosecutors are alleging that he threatened to burn a house

498
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:40,960
Speaker 7: down in Florida during a dispute back in you know,

499
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 7: in September twenty twenty five before he was arrested, and

500
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:46,600
Speaker 7: that a gun was found hidden inside a stuffed animal

501
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:52,000
Speaker 7: in his garage like he apparently allegedly was threatening more fires.

502
00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 2: Well, he obviously lit the Lachman fire. That seems pretty

503
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:58,840
Speaker 2: that's I see, that's a real thing. You're right, let's

504
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:03,040
Speaker 2: assume that I'm not even like second guessing the realities

505
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:06,640
Speaker 2: of that get even that circumstanceal evidence to me kind

506
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 2: of tracks right.

507
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:11,040
Speaker 3: Sure, it's just the leap to the Palisades part now.

508
00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:13,879
Speaker 2: And again I said, I wouldn't like weigh in, but

509
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:18,280
Speaker 2: I can promise you just from an infrastructure perspective, what

510
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:22,479
Speaker 2: my experience was as a local in that area, it

511
00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:27,320
Speaker 2: was really deficient and a lot of things to make

512
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:29,240
Speaker 2: that fire not as big.

513
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:31,040
Speaker 3: And yeah, I guess.

514
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:34,040
Speaker 2: It's a great time to point somewhere or to make

515
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:37,160
Speaker 2: sure someone's held accountable, because maybe some of the other

516
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:43,240
Speaker 2: checkpoints that our officials or anybody maybe could be relieved

517
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:45,680
Speaker 2: from would probably be helpful.

518
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:48,000
Speaker 3: I don't Yeah, I.

519
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 6: Have to imagine a lot will be coming out. Apparently

520
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:57,640
Speaker 6: the information was kept under wraps for months. La Mayor

521
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:01,640
Speaker 6: Karen Bass said that delayed the fire report at the

522
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:04,480
Speaker 6: DOJ's request to really makes sense.

523
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:07,160
Speaker 2: Karen Bass, because she was such a great hero during

524
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 2: this whole process.

525
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 3: So the DOJ asked her to hold back the report.

526
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:17,120
Speaker 7: Possibly maybe because federal chargers were plumbing I'm as touch potentially.

527
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:19,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, or because we were all looking at Karen Bass

528
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 2: for some answers. Frankly, that's right, myself included. And listen,

529
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 2: there's an anyone unpack. So this wife, who obviously has

530
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:30,560
Speaker 2: now we talked about this on Friday. On Thursday, has

531
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:35,000
Speaker 2: been convicted for killing her fifth husband with insulin. Much

532
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:39,000
Speaker 2: to unpack there also, as well as this potential serial

533
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:40,960
Speaker 2: killer in the Houston area.

534
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:42,440
Speaker 3: All of these bodies.

535
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 2: What does this mean? Joseph is here to unpack? So body,

536
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:49,680
Speaker 2: where would you like to go next? Well, actually, I'm

537
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:51,479
Speaker 2: going to pass it to Courtney, who's going to tell

538
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:52,960
Speaker 2: us about the insulin murder.

539
00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:56,719
Speaker 6: Listen, I've been reading so much about Sarah Hartsfield and

540
00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:00,920
Speaker 6: this insulin case, so I kind of I'm so eager

541
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:05,320
Speaker 6: to have josephs I'm so eager to have Joseph's take. So,

542
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:09,800
Speaker 6: as Stephanie mentioned, Sarah Hartsfield has been convicted. She's sentenced

543
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:12,640
Speaker 6: to life in prison, and that is for killing her

544
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 6: fifth husband, the victim, Joseph Hartsfield. She did it with

545
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:21,440
Speaker 6: a fatal insulin overdose tied to delaying medical help, which

546
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:25,440
Speaker 6: was part of it. Sarah Hartsfield was a former US

547
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 6: Army surgeant, and we went over it in detail on Thursday.

548
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 6: She had an incredibly complex and honestly really disturbing history

549
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 6: between This is not judging how many times you fall

550
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 6: in love and get married. This is her fifth, but

551
00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:44,000
Speaker 6: throughout there was sort of an escalating pattern, it seemed,

552
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 6: from threatening the first husband leading up to she there

553
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:53,680
Speaker 6: was a prior fatal shooting of a fiance, allegations of

554
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:57,400
Speaker 6: plotting violence throughout all of these previous spouses and here

555
00:30:57,440 --> 00:30:58,520
Speaker 6: we lie nowt It was a.

556
00:30:58,480 --> 00:30:59,680
Speaker 5: Really complex trial.

557
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:05,880
Speaker 6: But Joseph, we wanted to ask you specifically about insulin.

558
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:09,960
Speaker 3: Insulin as method of homicide.

559
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:14,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, you know, it's curious you say this the

560
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 4: I think, thinking back, the first known case of insulin

561
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 4: homicide actually occurred in Great Britain back and I think

562
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 4: the first document was probably in the late fifties, if

563
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:32,160
Speaker 4: I'm not mistaken. And it's somewhat of a head scratcher

564
00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:38,000
Speaker 4: for US at autopsy in order to determine causality, and

565
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:41,160
Speaker 4: you can suspect these types of things many times it's

566
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:47,800
Speaker 4: almost a diagnosis of what's referred to of exclusion, where

567
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 4: you've ruled everything else out. And you'll hear this in

568
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:55,480
Speaker 4: medicine many times, where doctors have to go through various

569
00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:59,520
Speaker 4: machinations to try to understand what exactly is impacting a patient.

570
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 4: Imagine doing that with a patient that is no longer

571
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:07,280
Speaker 4: alive and trying to suss that out. So this is

572
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 4: not something that's necessarily new under the sun, but it

573
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 4: is terrifying, particularly when you consider how many people nowadays.

574
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:19,640
Speaker 4: In particular, it seems like there's been a huge spike

575
00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:24,240
Speaker 4: over the last two decades of people that live with diabetes.

576
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:28,000
Speaker 4: But there are two types of diabetes. The victim in

577
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 4: this case was actually a type one diabetic, and type

578
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:37,600
Speaker 4: one diabetes means that his body and this only makes

579
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:40,400
Speaker 4: up about five to ten percent of the population. Okay,

580
00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:45,240
Speaker 4: Type one does everything else. Every other every other diagnosis

581
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:51,080
Speaker 4: is going to be Type two. That's insulin resistant diabetes.

582
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:54,640
Speaker 4: This is where your body does not produce insulin. I've

583
00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 4: got a lot of dear friends, several that have type one,

584
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 4: and it's something that means people it's juvenile on set.

585
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:06,080
Speaker 4: Many people live with it. You have to monitor. And

586
00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:10,920
Speaker 4: this is the real ghastly thing about this death. She

587
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:16,240
Speaker 4: would have known very well how dependent he is upon

588
00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 4: his insulin and what it takes just to survive, not

589
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:25,400
Speaker 4: day to day, but hour to hour to hour. And

590
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 4: we live in a world now where you can be

591
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:32,440
Speaker 4: monitored minute to minute and you can have monitors on

592
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 4: your phone that will go off, And in this case,

593
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:38,040
Speaker 4: I think that that actually plays into this because she's

594
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:41,640
Speaker 4: supposed to be the one that literally watch cares over him.

595
00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:45,400
Speaker 4: She understands what his daily life is like and his

596
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:49,760
Speaker 4: dependency upon insulin, and that's what really kind of drives

597
00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:55,280
Speaker 4: us and makes it particularly distasteful. She actually held his

598
00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:58,880
Speaker 4: life in her hand when this insulin monitor or the

599
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:02,080
Speaker 4: alert is going off. I can't remember, refresh my memory.

600
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 4: How many times did it go off over that period

601
00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:06,120
Speaker 4: of time. It is like one hundred times.

602
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:07,880
Speaker 3: I was going to say, I think it was close

603
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:08,680
Speaker 3: to one hundred.

604
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:09,719
Speaker 4: Yeah.

605
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:15,760
Speaker 6: And even Joseph, the victim, Joseph Hartfield, his under chronologists,

606
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:21,480
Speaker 6: said that he was her first patient to die of hypoglycemia,

607
00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 6: which is low blood sugar, particularly given his constant monitoring

608
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 6: and the technology.

609
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:28,800
Speaker 3: Joseph that you're mentioning.

610
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:31,759
Speaker 6: And also that Joseph as a type one diabetic who

611
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:35,200
Speaker 6: again lived his whole life that he is under chronologist

612
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:38,400
Speaker 6: said that he was particularly cautious about low blood sugar

613
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:43,520
Speaker 6: and set his glucose monitors alert unusually high.

614
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:46,279
Speaker 4: Yeah, so when it begins to dip like that, these

615
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:48,640
Speaker 4: alerts are going off, it's something that has to be

616
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:56,200
Speaker 4: attended to pretty quickly. What happens many times with the

617
00:34:56,320 --> 00:35:00,440
Speaker 4: onset when you get into this danger zone is that

618
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:05,840
Speaker 4: people become very lightheaded. Many times they're dictoratic, they start sweating,

619
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 4: this sort of thing, par palpitations. But what's really devastating

620
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:14,520
Speaker 4: about this is after a period of time, they will

621
00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:20,120
Speaker 4: eventually slip off into cooma. Okay. Now, for a death investigator,

622
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:23,200
Speaker 4: this makes this very difficult because you know that you've

623
00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:27,920
Speaker 4: got an individual that is suffering from a very serious

624
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:31,360
Speaker 4: malady that has to be watched minute to minute. And

625
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:34,160
Speaker 4: when you have somebody that is I don't know, for

626
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:37,120
Speaker 4: lack of a better term, is as fastidious as he

627
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:41,280
Speaker 4: was about you know, taking care of himself, it really

628
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:43,920
Speaker 4: becomes a head scratcher at that point. Tom, he's not

629
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:47,399
Speaker 4: an old gentleman, okay, but he's been living with this,

630
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:52,280
Speaker 4: probably for a protracted portion of his life, the idea

631
00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:57,799
Speaker 4: that he would just suddenly slip off like this and die.

632
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:02,440
Speaker 4: And I think that one of the really difficult things

633
00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:04,440
Speaker 4: about this, when you begin to kind of feature this

634
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:10,200
Speaker 4: in your mind, is she's watching this happen. She's watching

635
00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:13,799
Speaker 4: this happen as he slips off, you know, toward death.

636
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:16,800
Speaker 4: That's that's terrifying in and of itself.

637
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:20,200
Speaker 7: This is true crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true

638
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:22,360
Speaker 7: crime all the time. If you want to give us

639
00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:23,759
Speaker 7: a call and give us call it eighty eight to

640
00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:28,160
Speaker 7: thirty one Crime, or download the iHeartRadio app and leave

641
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:29,920
Speaker 7: us to talk back and boom, you're on the show.

642
00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:31,879
Speaker 3: So the kick.

643
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:34,720
Speaker 7: There's key points from this part of the prosecution, and

644
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:40,200
Speaker 7: they claimed Sarah was alert active on Facebook and recording

645
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:44,520
Speaker 7: his decline while failing to call for help, And you

646
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:48,239
Speaker 7: were right, Stephanie. Over one hundred glucose monitor alerts were

647
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:51,920
Speaker 7: ignored by Sarah who was receiving them on her phone,

648
00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:58,520
Speaker 7: and the medical expert that testified said that she was

649
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:03,360
Speaker 7: really surprised that he was on this Duxcom monitor because

650
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 7: those are so proficient and really good at sending those

651
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:10,200
Speaker 7: alerts to the caregivers. So I think that's kind of

652
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:13,160
Speaker 7: how they were just like, okay, this is she had

653
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:13,560
Speaker 7: to know.

654
00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:19,240
Speaker 2: She had allegedly Sarah the accused or now found guilty.

655
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:22,359
Speaker 2: It was also allegedly on Facebook during all of this,

656
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:28,280
Speaker 2: so she was active, she was near you know, technology.

657
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:31,239
Speaker 2: So I think that's another nod to the fact that

658
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:35,640
Speaker 2: this was a purposeful ignoring and not simply an oversight.

659
00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:39,280
Speaker 2: You know, toxicology is one of those things that comes up.

660
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:41,040
Speaker 3: So much Joseph and Afa.

661
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:44,000
Speaker 2: But Joseph has ever stuck with me on a phone

662
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:45,840
Speaker 2: call where I can really hit him up for some

663
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:50,279
Speaker 2: questions on a side thing, because toxicology is complicated, and

664
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:52,960
Speaker 2: I feel like I find myself saying so often and

665
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:56,200
Speaker 2: many of the cases we work on, why does a

666
00:37:56,239 --> 00:38:00,239
Speaker 2: toxicology take so long? Why is it so specific? How

667
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:03,640
Speaker 2: is there not just a general toxicology that happens in

668
00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:08,160
Speaker 2: all forensics when dealing with the body, because you never know,

669
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:11,520
Speaker 2: you know, now we're hearing a fentanyl, an ketamine, now insolin.

670
00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:15,920
Speaker 2: The woman's like drugging her husband with mushrooms from the wild.

671
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:19,160
Speaker 2: How about the other woman who was putting like arsenic

672
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:22,839
Speaker 2: in the protein shakes every ding. We're still waiting what

673
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:26,360
Speaker 2: about the girl in Montalk whose toxicology reports still hasn't

674
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:28,960
Speaker 2: come back yet that we were all, you know, up

675
00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:31,880
Speaker 2: in arms about. I still am, I might add, but

676
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:34,480
Speaker 2: you know, it takes so long.

677
00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:38,080
Speaker 4: Does take a long time, and I feel we've had

678
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:39,600
Speaker 4: a few cases involving.

679
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:42,760
Speaker 3: The eye drops. Don't get me started.

680
00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:46,919
Speaker 4: One of those terrifying things. Interestingly enough, within the post

681
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:51,160
Speaker 4: mortem state, it's very difficult, you know, because some of

682
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:54,000
Speaker 4: the things that you're looking for are sea peptides and

683
00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:59,399
Speaker 4: you're looking for insulin, and after death that becomes very

684
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:02,759
Speaker 4: difficult to do. And so many times again that's why

685
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 4: I'm saying it's a diagnosis. I think even in the

686
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:09,160
Speaker 4: post mortem state of exclusion, what do you include? Then?

687
00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:13,120
Speaker 4: Will you include the behaviors? What kind of behavior patterns

688
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:18,840
Speaker 4: was this guy known for specifically, and also running parallel

689
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:25,400
Speaker 4: to that his wife, what behavior patterns was she practicing

690
00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:28,000
Speaker 4: at that particular time. And when you get this deviation

691
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:30,960
Speaker 4: from this, and then the police are going to latch

692
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:33,520
Speaker 4: onto this, particularly when they begin to dig into her

693
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:35,719
Speaker 4: past and see some of these things, You see, your

694
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:38,000
Speaker 4: past does matter in a case like this, how you

695
00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:41,200
Speaker 4: behave before the fact that you're on your fifth marriage

696
00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:45,040
Speaker 4: and also you've got a shooting in your past related

697
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:48,080
Speaker 4: to you know, the lack of matrimonial bliss perhaps, I

698
00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:50,759
Speaker 4: don't know. So those are going to be factors that

699
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:53,839
Speaker 4: are going to feed into this. What are they going

700
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:55,879
Speaker 4: to be able to prove? And this is a real

701
00:39:56,000 --> 00:40:01,480
Speaker 4: uphill struggle for any for any clinician in the in

702
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:04,920
Speaker 4: the forensic world to make a diagnosis of and to

703
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:09,840
Speaker 4: be able to also to explain this very complex, complex disease,

704
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:13,120
Speaker 4: uh to a jury where they begin to understand it.

705
00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:16,200
Speaker 4: And you know, you're actually saying again, I hate I

706
00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:19,360
Speaker 4: don't want to continue to reuse this. But the insulin

707
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:25,200
Speaker 4: actually replaces a gun, you know. And here's the thing

708
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:28,200
Speaker 4: about it is, it's it's stealthy. It's stealthy. You know.

709
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:32,840
Speaker 4: I made mention of poisoners earlier, and this is actually

710
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:37,760
Speaker 4: a case I think probably of poisoning if you will,

711
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:42,120
Speaker 4: or an absence or a lack thereof. Okay, so that

712
00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:44,040
Speaker 4: becomes problematic as well.

713
00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:46,560
Speaker 2: You know, quick question, Joseph. And by the way, if

714
00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:48,840
Speaker 2: you're just joining us, you're listening to true crime tonight.

715
00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:49,840
Speaker 3: On iHeartRadio.

716
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:52,080
Speaker 2: I'm staff here with Courtney and Body, and we're talking

717
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:57,040
Speaker 2: about Sarah Hartsfield's recently found guilty for murdering her fifth

718
00:40:57,080 --> 00:41:00,880
Speaker 2: husband with insulin. Is there something for our audience as

719
00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:04,120
Speaker 2: a takeaway? If God forbid? And I mean that from

720
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:06,279
Speaker 2: the bottom of my heart, they find themselves in a

721
00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:11,120
Speaker 2: situation where someone that they love has to be examined

722
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:16,840
Speaker 2: post mortem, again, God forbid, and we know that a

723
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 2: toxicology report will follow. Is there any time or something

724
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:25,719
Speaker 2: specific that we should just know to ask for in

725
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:26,680
Speaker 2: cases like that?

726
00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:31,000
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, it's an excellent question stuff actually, because when

727
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:35,840
Speaker 4: you do when we do an autopsy, there's what's referred

728
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:39,239
Speaker 4: to as a standard panel for toxicology, and these are

729
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:43,600
Speaker 4: all the major drug groups, both those that are illisted

730
00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:47,160
Speaker 4: drugs and those that you standardly find in your medicine cabinet.

731
00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:50,160
Speaker 4: We even screened for aspirin. Okay, you'll find aspirin, say

732
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:53,239
Speaker 4: to menifin all these other things that are including the

733
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:56,640
Speaker 4: TALKS report, when it gets out into the exotic area,

734
00:41:57,440 --> 00:42:01,319
Speaker 4: that's something that they would have to test for specifically.

735
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:04,719
Speaker 4: And the way you arrive at that is you have

736
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:06,799
Speaker 4: to find some kind of evidence at the scene that

737
00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:09,560
Speaker 4: might indicate that this might be some kind of agent

738
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:13,920
Speaker 4: that we're looking for in their system, and then they

739
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:16,319
Speaker 4: would have to create a specific test for that. You know,

740
00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:22,040
Speaker 4: I stated my thoughts about tetrahydralising that ain't on the

741
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:26,440
Speaker 4: It's just not something that you're going to be looking

742
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:30,200
Speaker 4: for now. It might become after, you know, we've gotten

743
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:35,000
Speaker 4: this proliferation, forgiving of all these cases that are out

744
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:38,360
Speaker 4: there where you're looking, you know, causal effects, what brings

745
00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:42,840
Speaker 4: us home, and is there anything else circumstantially that you

746
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:44,400
Speaker 4: can tie back to it that's going to give you

747
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:47,040
Speaker 4: an eddication you know, or physically you know, when you

748
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:49,480
Speaker 4: see some kind of manifestation of the body. I'll give

749
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:51,200
Speaker 4: you a good example. If we have a fire death,

750
00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:55,040
Speaker 4: for instance, if the skin is pink, or it doesn't

751
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:56,600
Speaker 4: even have to be a fire death, it can be

752
00:42:56,680 --> 00:42:58,759
Speaker 4: a death inside of a home, for instance, that the

753
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:03,120
Speaker 4: skin is pink, nail or paint, the eyes, the eyes

754
00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:06,279
Speaker 4: are actually well, we're going to do a test called

755
00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:08,919
Speaker 4: a carbox of heemic globe and level to see if

756
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:12,919
Speaker 4: they actually have carbon monoxide on board. And that's something

757
00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:15,560
Speaker 4: that would present physically standardly, you're not going to do

758
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:17,560
Speaker 4: a car box of hemic globe and level. It has

759
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:20,719
Speaker 4: to be circumstances that dictate this. That's why it makes

760
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:24,560
Speaker 4: an insulent investigation. Death like this is all the more.

761
00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:28,279
Speaker 2: Complex, amazing and by the way, like this is what

762
00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:32,480
Speaker 2: doesn't lie. I mean people think about it. Bystanders to

763
00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:35,439
Speaker 2: an event or a crime scene may not have seen

764
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:38,400
Speaker 2: it correctly because there's so much emotion behind it, you know,

765
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:42,000
Speaker 2: you go first responders to a crime scene or assessing

766
00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:45,960
Speaker 2: so much right, it's so human. But the science of

767
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:48,440
Speaker 2: it all, which Joseph you've dedicated your life.

768
00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:50,320
Speaker 3: To, it just doesn't lie.

769
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:53,520
Speaker 2: And that's why we're so excited that you're going to

770
00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:56,640
Speaker 2: stick with us for the next hour. We're holding Joseph

771
00:43:56,680 --> 00:44:00,160
Speaker 2: Scott Morgan hostage, only in a good way. We're getting

772
00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:04,200
Speaker 2: to Houston. Is there a potential serial killer at large

773
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:07,440
Speaker 2: in Houston? Twenty two bodies? How can that be explained?

774
00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:09,600
Speaker 2: Keep it here True Crime Tonight.

775
00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:10,439
Speaker 3: We'll be right back.

776
00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:23,080
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

777
00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:26,759
Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with

778
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:30,600
Speaker 2: Courtney Armstrong, Body Moven and listen. We have a stacked

779
00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:35,480
Speaker 2: house tonight because it's Scientific Sunday. Joseph Scott Morgan cue

780
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:39,160
Speaker 2: the smoke machine and the applause is back with us

781
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:42,799
Speaker 2: breaking down a bunch of forensics. Taha is out for

782
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:47,120
Speaker 2: the evening, but we have Ava Kaplin jumping in live

783
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:50,279
Speaker 2: with us. She's normally with us during the day, but

784
00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:52,759
Speaker 2: you guys don't normally get access to her live, so

785
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:54,560
Speaker 2: if you want to join us eight eight eight three

786
00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:58,960
Speaker 2: one crime, Sam and Adam are standing by as always.

787
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:01,800
Speaker 3: Happy Sunday everyone, We.

788
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:04,080
Speaker 2: Really do hope you had a great weekend and we

789
00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:08,680
Speaker 2: are off to hopefully a holiday for many tomorrow.

790
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:12,040
Speaker 3: So hopefully you're out late right now just living it up.

791
00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:15,520
Speaker 2: But in the meantime we are breaking down sort of

792
00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:20,360
Speaker 2: some toxicology talk. We were discussing this Sarah Hartsfield conviction.

793
00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:23,640
Speaker 2: She's now been found guilty for killing her fifth husband

794
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:26,720
Speaker 2: via insulin, and it kind of kicked off a convo

795
00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:31,000
Speaker 2: of just about toxicology in general, because even in between

796
00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:34,320
Speaker 2: the brek, Courtney and I were asking Joseph for a

797
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:38,120
Speaker 2: little clarity about manner of death. And it also fishtails

798
00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:43,680
Speaker 2: into the pop star David's story and Celeste revesses the

799
00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:46,319
Speaker 2: fifteen year old who was found in his trunk.

800
00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:48,520
Speaker 3: Her toxicology report.

801
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:53,000
Speaker 2: In terms of manner of death, So, Joseph, the manner

802
00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:57,080
Speaker 2: of death and the cause of death, it seems like

803
00:45:57,160 --> 00:45:58,480
Speaker 2: there's a very big distinction.

804
00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:04,080
Speaker 4: Correct, Oh, yeah, they're they're completely different. Manner. It's real simple.

805
00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:06,839
Speaker 4: The manner of death, you've only you've only got five

806
00:46:07,080 --> 00:46:12,000
Speaker 4: five choices homicide, suicide, accidental, undetermined, and natural. And you

807
00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:16,919
Speaker 4: think about causes just about any methodology that's out there

808
00:46:17,719 --> 00:46:21,720
Speaker 4: of death, Uh, whether it's gunshot, wound or a safe

809
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:24,400
Speaker 4: falling on somebody's head from the top of the building.

810
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:29,279
Speaker 4: You do a Looney Tunes reference there. You know, all

811
00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:31,919
Speaker 4: of those can be causes of death, and they can

812
00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:36,320
Speaker 4: fit beneath any any number of the categories of manner.

813
00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:40,200
Speaker 4: And so you know, when you think about it, we

814
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:44,840
Speaker 4: in our world, we vary from the DA or the police.

815
00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:48,320
Speaker 4: All right, police might call something a homicide, but in

816
00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:51,719
Speaker 4: the medical legal world, we might not have enough scientific

817
00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:55,440
Speaker 4: data to say, okay, specifically this is a homicide, because

818
00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:59,759
Speaker 4: how do we define homicide. Homicide is literally defined as

819
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:04,319
Speaker 4: death at the hand of another all right, it's not judgmental,

820
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:07,319
Speaker 4: it's the scientific fact, can you prove that this death

821
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:10,560
Speaker 4: came about at the hand of another scientifically, And so

822
00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:14,800
Speaker 4: when you have sometimes you will have it's not technically

823
00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:17,840
Speaker 4: a disagreement, but you know, the medical examiner or the

824
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:20,440
Speaker 4: corner is not necessarily going to go along with the prosecutor.

825
00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:23,720
Speaker 4: Prosecutor might have more substance there that they can charge

826
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:28,040
Speaker 4: somebody and take them to trial and hopefully on the

827
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:30,680
Speaker 4: part of the prosecutor, they can you know, convict them.

828
00:47:31,239 --> 00:47:34,000
Speaker 4: But we don't really play a role in that. And

829
00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:37,080
Speaker 4: there are actually cases where medical examiners and corners have

830
00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:41,000
Speaker 4: ruled something a homicide and the prosecutor was unwilling to

831
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:43,000
Speaker 4: go forward with it even though the emmy corner are

832
00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:46,759
Speaker 4: calling it a homicide. So that's another you know, that's

833
00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:49,920
Speaker 4: another place where we we butt heads. All you got

834
00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:52,799
Speaker 4: to do is reference back to Ellen Greenberg, you know,

835
00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:55,759
Speaker 4: because we've got a case there where the manner of

836
00:47:55,760 --> 00:48:00,080
Speaker 4: death has been changed not once, not twice, but three times.

837
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:06,200
Speaker 4: And so you can have disagreements. You can have people

838
00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:09,080
Speaker 4: will you know, coalesce together and they'll say, yeah, you know,

839
00:48:09,239 --> 00:48:12,480
Speaker 4: we we you know, we we do agree with you

840
00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:14,279
Speaker 4: on this, but it's not going to be you know,

841
00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:16,520
Speaker 4: we're not in the medical legal world. We're not in

842
00:48:16,560 --> 00:48:19,440
Speaker 4: the business of charging people or arresting people. We just

843
00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:22,880
Speaker 4: investigate deaths and we present its scientific data.

844
00:48:23,239 --> 00:48:26,120
Speaker 2: With a very indifferent way about it. And that's for

845
00:48:26,239 --> 00:48:29,840
Speaker 2: law enforcement to then take to the next level, assess

846
00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:34,160
Speaker 2: your assessment, and then make decisions about criminal activity thereafter.

847
00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:35,719
Speaker 3: We're going to jump in.

848
00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:37,759
Speaker 6: Yeah, just one more follow up, and I'm just going

849
00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:40,680
Speaker 6: to go back to the hypothetical example of a.

850
00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:42,960
Speaker 5: Safe falling on top of someone.

851
00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:49,359
Speaker 10: Right, okay, right, But how would would that even enter

852
00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:53,879
Speaker 10: into the corner medical examiner's world or would it.

853
00:48:53,880 --> 00:48:58,560
Speaker 6: Just be the cause of death is being smushed. I

854
00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:00,200
Speaker 6: don't know what the what that would.

855
00:48:59,960 --> 00:49:02,480
Speaker 4: Be, but blood force trauma, blood force, that would be

856
00:49:02,520 --> 00:49:04,680
Speaker 4: blunt trauma. Yeah, if you use the term, if you

857
00:49:04,719 --> 00:49:09,120
Speaker 4: want to go with a safe idea blunt force trauma. Uh.

858
00:49:09,160 --> 00:49:13,480
Speaker 4: And now when we look at that, if we say, okay,

859
00:49:14,080 --> 00:49:16,840
Speaker 4: this guy waited until a person walked out of the

860
00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:19,879
Speaker 4: door of a building, timed it, push the safe off

861
00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:23,520
Speaker 4: the ledge, and it crashed into somebody. Whereas if you

862
00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:26,640
Speaker 4: had a team of workers that were up there and

863
00:49:26,719 --> 00:49:30,440
Speaker 4: a scaffolding gave way and say fell that's going to

864
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:34,520
Speaker 4: fall into a category of an accidental event. Okay, So,

865
00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:38,280
Speaker 4: and that's kind of simplistic, but that's that's the basics

866
00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:39,919
Speaker 4: of it. And you can have some of these things

867
00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:42,920
Speaker 4: that are actually left. Now this is really confusing. You

868
00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:45,960
Speaker 4: have some of these events where you can say that

869
00:49:46,160 --> 00:49:50,000
Speaker 4: it's undetermined, they don't have enough proof either way.

870
00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:54,279
Speaker 2: So you know, can you, Joseph, can you go back

871
00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:59,319
Speaker 2: post mortem after there has already been an examination by

872
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:02,919
Speaker 2: the medical examiner, and then years later. Sometimes I feel

873
00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:05,840
Speaker 2: like we've worked on cases even together, where either a

874
00:50:05,880 --> 00:50:10,560
Speaker 2: body is exhumed or a body is re examined with

875
00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:13,759
Speaker 2: a different lens. Perhaps for some reason, I'm thinking of

876
00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:19,120
Speaker 2: Chad day Bell's wife, Tammy day Bell. Chad Daybell was

877
00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:23,439
Speaker 2: married infamously to killer cult mom Laurie day Bell. They're

878
00:50:23,440 --> 00:50:27,600
Speaker 2: accused and convicted of killing her two children and burying

879
00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:29,480
Speaker 2: them in a shallow grave in her backyard. But he

880
00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:33,920
Speaker 2: was also accused later of killing his wife at her

881
00:50:33,920 --> 00:50:38,080
Speaker 2: time and Tammy and for her kids, this must have

882
00:50:38,080 --> 00:50:41,000
Speaker 2: been so brutal, and then they exhumed her, you know,

883
00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:45,840
Speaker 2: years later, and we're able to find sufficient evidence.

884
00:50:45,920 --> 00:50:46,640
Speaker 3: Is that accurate?

885
00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:50,160
Speaker 4: Yes? Yes, that is correct, and actually she was exhumed

886
00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:54,720
Speaker 4: in Utah a boy the Utah State Medical Examiner, because

887
00:50:54,920 --> 00:50:57,279
Speaker 4: Odaha has corner. She was taken to Utah to be

888
00:50:57,320 --> 00:50:59,239
Speaker 4: buried and they had to get an order of exhimation

889
00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:02,399
Speaker 4: down there. And thank god it was Utah because they

890
00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:06,800
Speaker 4: have a fine state Medical Examiner's office, and they really

891
00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:09,000
Speaker 4: took their time with this case because so much time

892
00:51:09,080 --> 00:51:11,480
Speaker 4: had passed at that point time. You know, Initially, when

893
00:51:11,520 --> 00:51:15,040
Speaker 4: Tammy's death occurred, they thought they thought that this was

894
00:51:15,080 --> 00:51:20,120
Speaker 4: some kind of natural event, natural event, and it was

895
00:51:20,280 --> 00:51:23,520
Speaker 4: not investigated as thoroughly as it should have been. She

896
00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:27,080
Speaker 4: was a young, healthy woman. Young healthy women just don't

897
00:51:27,080 --> 00:51:31,680
Speaker 4: spontaneously die without a scientific explanation, and so it was

898
00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:34,239
Speaker 4: insufficient at least in my opinion at that point in time.

899
00:51:34,920 --> 00:51:38,240
Speaker 4: But when truth be told and they found more information

900
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:40,480
Speaker 4: later on, they were able to develop that and they

901
00:51:40,520 --> 00:51:43,400
Speaker 4: did in fact change her manner of death at that

902
00:51:43,480 --> 00:51:46,399
Speaker 4: point in time. And there are multiple examples of this,

903
00:51:46,600 --> 00:51:49,560
Speaker 4: you know, throughout the country. It's not just limited there.

904
00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:52,440
Speaker 4: But and yes, in answer to your question, here's an

905
00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:56,000
Speaker 4: interesting one as well. We think about the Buford Pusser

906
00:51:56,080 --> 00:51:59,440
Speaker 4: case that has been in the news recently, you know

907
00:51:59,480 --> 00:52:02,839
Speaker 4: where his wife's body was exhumed. Now she was a homicide.

908
00:52:03,560 --> 00:52:06,920
Speaker 4: Now they're saying it wasn't a homicide at the hands

909
00:52:06,960 --> 00:52:09,120
Speaker 4: of some unknown assailant from I don't know. I think

910
00:52:09,120 --> 00:52:11,440
Speaker 4: they said it was a Dixie mafia, the Dixie Mafia.

911
00:52:11,520 --> 00:52:13,320
Speaker 4: It may very well have been at the hands of

912
00:52:13,360 --> 00:52:16,600
Speaker 4: Beefer Pusser. You know, they exhumed her body and they

913
00:52:16,600 --> 00:52:19,880
Speaker 4: discovered that she had a healing, fractured nose that probably

914
00:52:20,000 --> 00:52:24,240
Speaker 4: resulted from domestic violence. And so you know, the story

915
00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:26,960
Speaker 4: can change over a period of time. It's very dynamic.

916
00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:30,400
Speaker 6: Oh, this is so compelling, and that is a case

917
00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:34,360
Speaker 6: I'm pretty unfamiliar with, So I'd love to with that

918
00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:37,120
Speaker 6: on the document and to get into it. Listen, this

919
00:52:37,200 --> 00:52:40,720
Speaker 6: is true Crime Tonight, and we are joined with joined

920
00:52:40,719 --> 00:52:44,359
Speaker 6: by Joseph Scott Morgan, who is making the forensically complicated

921
00:52:44,480 --> 00:52:45,600
Speaker 6: easy to digest.

922
00:52:46,040 --> 00:52:46,520
Speaker 3: So thank you.

923
00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:49,520
Speaker 6: We've been speaking about cause versus manner of death and

924
00:52:50,400 --> 00:52:51,960
Speaker 6: now I feel like we've been to school and know

925
00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:52,560
Speaker 6: our stuff.

926
00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:56,640
Speaker 5: Body, you were going to tell us what in the

927
00:52:56,640 --> 00:52:58,200
Speaker 5: world's going on in Houston.

928
00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:02,520
Speaker 7: Yeah, So another body has been recovered from the White

929
00:53:02,560 --> 00:53:08,319
Speaker 7: Oak Bayou and this marks the twenty second death in

930
00:53:08,360 --> 00:53:12,120
Speaker 7: the Houston area waterways in this year, in twenty twenty five,

931
00:53:12,960 --> 00:53:17,319
Speaker 7: And you know, this is intensifying public fears and online speculation,

932
00:53:18,120 --> 00:53:22,280
Speaker 7: which it should be noted city officials are strongly rejecting

933
00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:25,799
Speaker 7: as unsupported by evidence. What the community is fearful of

934
00:53:25,960 --> 00:53:28,839
Speaker 7: is that this is a serial killer. And there's all

935
00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:32,440
Speaker 7: these bodies being found in the bayou and people want answers.

936
00:53:33,160 --> 00:53:37,000
Speaker 7: And throughout twenty twenty five, Houston authorities again they've pulled

937
00:53:37,040 --> 00:53:40,520
Speaker 7: over twenty bodies from the city's bayous, with multiple victims

938
00:53:41,120 --> 00:53:46,440
Speaker 7: discovered in rapid succession and some remaining unidentified, and many

939
00:53:46,640 --> 00:53:49,280
Speaker 7: still you guys were just talking about cause and manner

940
00:53:49,280 --> 00:53:49,680
Speaker 7: of death.

941
00:53:49,800 --> 00:53:50,800
Speaker 3: Some are still pending.

942
00:53:51,320 --> 00:53:54,520
Speaker 7: After months and months and months of sitting in the

943
00:53:54,560 --> 00:53:59,080
Speaker 7: medical Examiner's office, speculation has grown about a potential serial

944
00:53:59,160 --> 00:54:03,560
Speaker 7: killer or some kind of like organized foul play. City

945
00:54:03,640 --> 00:54:07,959
Speaker 7: leaders and law enforcement insist there's zero evidence to point

946
00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:12,799
Speaker 7: in that direction or that any of these bodies, the

947
00:54:12,840 --> 00:54:18,120
Speaker 7: deaths of these people were criminal in nature in any way. So, yeah,

948
00:54:18,200 --> 00:54:21,520
Speaker 7: this is kind of making people a little nuts, And listen,

949
00:54:21,640 --> 00:54:24,400
Speaker 7: I kind of would be too, But a lot of

950
00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:27,520
Speaker 7: people are saying also that you know, people are in

951
00:54:27,600 --> 00:54:29,919
Speaker 7: the bayous for whatever reason and they're having some sort

952
00:54:29,960 --> 00:54:34,640
Speaker 7: of cardiac event and they're dying from accidental drowning. Normally,

953
00:54:34,640 --> 00:54:38,440
Speaker 7: when serial killers kill, they don't throw somebody in the

954
00:54:38,480 --> 00:54:41,000
Speaker 7: water and let them drown, right Like, that's just not

955
00:54:41,120 --> 00:54:44,160
Speaker 7: an effective way to kill somebody. And a lot of

956
00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:46,560
Speaker 7: these people are found with water in the lungs, you know,

957
00:54:47,080 --> 00:54:49,959
Speaker 7: they had some sort of cardiac event and passed away.

958
00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:52,200
Speaker 7: A lot of another thing that people are doing is

959
00:54:53,000 --> 00:54:57,800
Speaker 7: you know, homeless populations, right they are, you know, using

960
00:54:58,120 --> 00:55:02,160
Speaker 7: the bayou to put by of people that they associate with.

961
00:55:02,239 --> 00:55:06,360
Speaker 7: Instead of calling or reporting the death of this homeless person.

962
00:55:06,920 --> 00:55:08,759
Speaker 7: Some of the people that they're pulling from the bayou

963
00:55:08,920 --> 00:55:14,240
Speaker 7: are identified, you know, so there's nobody to claim them, right.

964
00:55:14,120 --> 00:55:17,520
Speaker 2: So it's a homeless person's body and a buyo and

965
00:55:17,560 --> 00:55:18,880
Speaker 2: that's a human being.

966
00:55:19,080 --> 00:55:19,360
Speaker 7: I know.

967
00:55:19,960 --> 00:55:23,839
Speaker 4: That is so sound that Yeah, let me interject here

968
00:55:24,000 --> 00:55:27,920
Speaker 4: relative to this, if you and I've had this happen

969
00:55:27,960 --> 00:55:30,719
Speaker 4: over the years, particularly had it happen a lot in Atlanta.

970
00:55:31,640 --> 00:55:34,880
Speaker 4: If you have, for instance, if you have an area

971
00:55:35,320 --> 00:55:40,440
Speaker 4: where people are concentrated in and they might be unhoused

972
00:55:41,200 --> 00:55:45,520
Speaker 4: and they're involved in illicit drug drug use. If someone

973
00:55:45,600 --> 00:55:49,000
Speaker 4: ods or you know, just passes away, doesn't necessarily have

974
00:55:49,040 --> 00:55:51,200
Speaker 4: to be an o D the last thing they want

975
00:55:51,320 --> 00:55:54,600
Speaker 4: or the cops around, right. So many times I've worked

976
00:55:54,640 --> 00:55:59,720
Speaker 4: cases where people would wrap bodies, put them in a car,

977
00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:02,520
Speaker 4: and then move them away from like a shooting gallery

978
00:56:02,560 --> 00:56:04,920
Speaker 4: where people might be using heroin or that sort of thing,

979
00:56:05,040 --> 00:56:08,680
Speaker 4: or if they're near a homeless encampment, I could see

980
00:56:08,719 --> 00:56:12,440
Speaker 4: them pushing a body off into the water because then

981
00:56:13,160 --> 00:56:15,840
Speaker 4: you've got distance between yourself and the body. The cops

982
00:56:15,840 --> 00:56:17,640
Speaker 4: are not going to come and question you about that,

983
00:56:17,719 --> 00:56:19,960
Speaker 4: and even if they do, they'll say, body, I don't

984
00:56:19,960 --> 00:56:25,360
Speaker 4: know anything about it, dy, you know. And here's another thing. People,

985
00:56:25,600 --> 00:56:28,000
Speaker 4: you know you hear the term by you and you

986
00:56:28,080 --> 00:56:29,640
Speaker 4: knew I was going to get into this because I'm

987
00:56:29,640 --> 00:56:34,040
Speaker 4: from Louisiana. But many people don't understand what a bayou is.

988
00:56:34,480 --> 00:56:39,279
Speaker 4: It's it's not a it is not a lake, all right.

989
00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:43,520
Speaker 4: It's actually got a current to it. It's a very

990
00:56:44,040 --> 00:56:47,760
Speaker 4: slow moving current. But generally they're associated with with water

991
00:56:48,000 --> 00:56:51,640
Speaker 4: with rivers or streams, and they run off so they

992
00:56:51,680 --> 00:56:55,480
Speaker 4: will track. So you could have a body that enters,

993
00:56:56,040 --> 00:56:58,200
Speaker 4: Lord have mercy. You could have a body that enters

994
00:56:58,239 --> 00:57:01,080
Speaker 4: five miles away the value and it's just going to

995
00:57:01,160 --> 00:57:06,080
Speaker 4: slowly make its way through the bayu. Now, conversely, values

996
00:57:06,080 --> 00:57:08,520
Speaker 4: are perfect place disposed of a body because in the

997
00:57:08,560 --> 00:57:11,120
Speaker 4: Deep South, which Houston is as deep as you can

998
00:57:11,160 --> 00:57:16,640
Speaker 4: possibly get. Guess what in dwells vyus well all manner

999
00:57:16,640 --> 00:57:22,400
Speaker 4: of marine life, and plus the ultimate apex predator in

1000
00:57:22,480 --> 00:57:26,800
Speaker 4: our nation, which is the American alligator. And so it's

1001
00:57:26,840 --> 00:57:30,760
Speaker 4: a perfect place to dump, to dump a remain if

1002
00:57:30,800 --> 00:57:33,720
Speaker 4: you want to put distance and also disposal. So they've

1003
00:57:33,720 --> 00:57:37,640
Speaker 4: got a lot to work through here. And and we've

1004
00:57:37,640 --> 00:57:39,960
Speaker 4: seen this played out in Austin. I got to remind

1005
00:57:40,000 --> 00:57:46,400
Speaker 4: everybody the ladybird, ladybird, Yes, you know, they keep you know.

1006
00:57:46,560 --> 00:57:48,800
Speaker 4: And they're trying to tie that to a serial killer

1007
00:57:48,840 --> 00:57:52,040
Speaker 4: as well. So we're seeing this, you know, kind of

1008
00:57:52,080 --> 00:57:55,800
Speaker 4: promulgated in the in the media. The case is the

1009
00:57:55,920 --> 00:57:58,720
Speaker 4: NISC cases as they call them, up up in the

1010
00:57:58,720 --> 00:58:00,920
Speaker 4: Northeast where we've got all the bodies up there. They're

1011
00:58:00,920 --> 00:58:03,080
Speaker 4: trying to say that there's a serial killer up there too,

1012
00:58:03,160 --> 00:58:06,919
Speaker 4: So i'd have to see more evidence. And with serial

1013
00:58:07,000 --> 00:58:09,480
Speaker 4: kills we look for patterns, right right, you know, how

1014
00:58:09,480 --> 00:58:11,640
Speaker 4: do they die? How do they die? How are the

1015
00:58:11,640 --> 00:58:13,880
Speaker 4: bodies treated after death? Are they weighted down or are

1016
00:58:13,880 --> 00:58:16,680
Speaker 4: they just free floating out in the water. I don't know,

1017
00:58:16,840 --> 00:58:18,720
Speaker 4: And that's what they're dealing with right now. They're trying

1018
00:58:18,720 --> 00:58:20,480
Speaker 4: to find connectivity.

1019
00:58:20,560 --> 00:58:25,080
Speaker 7: And so far so in September they pulled eleven Within

1020
00:58:25,240 --> 00:58:28,760
Speaker 7: just the first eleven days, there were six bodies found.

1021
00:58:29,200 --> 00:58:32,440
Speaker 7: So this time period in September really ramped up the

1022
00:58:32,840 --> 00:58:36,400
Speaker 7: conversation online and within the locals. I mean, eleven days

1023
00:58:36,400 --> 00:58:39,480
Speaker 7: and six bodies are pulled from the bayou. You know

1024
00:58:39,600 --> 00:58:41,800
Speaker 7: this BYU, but it's important to note too, this by

1025
00:58:41,920 --> 00:58:46,440
Speaker 7: you also runs under the bridges and under free you

1026
00:58:46,480 --> 00:58:50,800
Speaker 7: know freeways, and these are you know, unhoused adjacent areas

1027
00:58:50,920 --> 00:58:54,840
Speaker 7: of the city. And you know, the city officials are

1028
00:58:54,920 --> 00:59:01,560
Speaker 7: citing accidental drownings, mental health struggles, drug use use, and homelessness,

1029
00:59:01,600 --> 00:59:03,360
Speaker 7: not organized crime or foul play.

1030
00:59:04,400 --> 00:59:05,760
Speaker 3: To me, happy for the water too.

1031
00:59:05,880 --> 00:59:08,960
Speaker 2: To have this many decomposing bodies just in a body

1032
00:59:09,000 --> 00:59:13,040
Speaker 2: of water that people visit recreationally, it's shocking.

1033
00:59:14,480 --> 00:59:17,200
Speaker 4: Well, if these are the ones I found, how many

1034
00:59:17,240 --> 00:59:18,200
Speaker 4: are there out there that have.

1035
00:59:18,240 --> 00:59:21,720
Speaker 2: Not exactly like. That is unbelievable. And how do you

1036
00:59:21,760 --> 00:59:23,960
Speaker 2: know that the person was not living when they tossed

1037
00:59:24,000 --> 00:59:24,240
Speaker 2: him in?

1038
00:59:24,280 --> 00:59:24,520
Speaker 3: There?

1039
00:59:24,960 --> 00:59:28,440
Speaker 2: Are we just disposing of unhoused people because it's clogging

1040
00:59:28,520 --> 00:59:31,360
Speaker 2: up the streets? I have to assume that's not the case.

1041
00:59:31,400 --> 00:59:35,080
Speaker 2: But again, who's investigating this? This is a lot of bodies,

1042
00:59:35,160 --> 00:59:37,479
Speaker 2: it is. It's a lot, It's a lot.

1043
00:59:38,320 --> 00:59:38,520
Speaker 11: Well.

1044
00:59:38,520 --> 00:59:41,560
Speaker 6: We will absolutely keep you up to speed as more

1045
00:59:41,640 --> 00:59:47,000
Speaker 6: information becomes available, because this needs some watching. But stick

1046
00:59:47,040 --> 00:59:51,200
Speaker 6: with us because coming up, Joseph Scott Morgan, forensic expert,

1047
00:59:51,320 --> 00:59:54,320
Speaker 6: is going to fill us in on some of the

1048
00:59:54,320 --> 00:59:58,360
Speaker 6: details of at game that and much more. Keep it

1049
00:59:58,400 --> 01:00:00,440
Speaker 6: here at True Crimes Tonight, we are talking and true

1050
01:00:00,440 --> 01:00:13,280
Speaker 6: crime all the time. This is True Crime Tonight. We

1051
01:00:13,320 --> 01:00:16,600
Speaker 6: are on iHeartRadio. We are talking true crime all the time.

1052
01:00:17,160 --> 01:00:21,840
Speaker 6: I'm Courtney Armstrong. I'm here with Stephanie Leidecker and Body

1053
01:00:21,880 --> 01:00:25,720
Speaker 6: Movin and of course Joseph Scott Morgan. Don't forget if

1054
01:00:25,760 --> 01:00:27,640
Speaker 6: you miss any part of the show, you can always

1055
01:00:27,760 --> 01:00:30,640
Speaker 6: catch the podcast. We want to hear from you. Give

1056
01:00:30,680 --> 01:00:32,280
Speaker 6: us a call eight at eight to three to one

1057
01:00:32,400 --> 01:00:35,160
Speaker 6: crime or get with us on socials. We got true

1058
01:00:35,160 --> 01:00:38,560
Speaker 6: Crime Tonight's show on TikTok and Instagram, True Crime Tonight

1059
01:00:38,640 --> 01:00:41,240
Speaker 6: on Facebook, and let's go to a talk back.

1060
01:00:41,720 --> 01:00:45,120
Speaker 11: Hey, y'all, and jeth So Fly just released in news

1061
01:00:45,160 --> 01:00:50,200
Speaker 11: documentary their death in Apartment six oh three What happened

1062
01:00:50,240 --> 01:00:52,520
Speaker 11: to Ellen Reebers? And I'm not going to go into

1063
01:00:52,560 --> 01:00:56,400
Speaker 11: any details about it, but this is a case that

1064
01:00:56,560 --> 01:00:58,960
Speaker 11: I would love for y'all to dig into. There are

1065
01:00:59,240 --> 01:01:04,200
Speaker 11: some that are approaching on the fourteenth where the city

1066
01:01:04,240 --> 01:01:07,600
Speaker 11: of Philadelphia is supposed to be giving their flattings from

1067
01:01:07,600 --> 01:01:13,040
Speaker 11: the re examinaation of her death. Anyways, the documentary was

1068
01:01:13,480 --> 01:01:18,800
Speaker 11: amazing and also like her at the same time, So anyways,

1069
01:01:18,840 --> 01:01:22,520
Speaker 11: I'd love to just hear about this from y'all and

1070
01:01:23,240 --> 01:01:27,320
Speaker 11: dive into it. Yes, anyways, love y'all.

1071
01:01:27,640 --> 01:01:30,439
Speaker 2: By the way, I think she is onto something because

1072
01:01:30,480 --> 01:01:32,360
Speaker 2: by the way, we have Joseph here and he is

1073
01:01:32,400 --> 01:01:36,480
Speaker 2: an expert in the Allen Greenberg case, and we were

1074
01:01:36,560 --> 01:01:42,200
Speaker 2: considering discussing the ed Gen Monsters series, but I'm going

1075
01:01:42,240 --> 01:01:45,200
Speaker 2: to vote and say it's too gross. Honestly, I can't

1076
01:01:45,240 --> 01:01:48,880
Speaker 2: even get through it, and I am the least squeamish

1077
01:01:49,080 --> 01:01:52,640
Speaker 2: person alive, and for some reason, I think it's too

1078
01:01:52,680 --> 01:01:57,120
Speaker 2: traumatic to actually have anybody watch. And you can agree

1079
01:01:57,200 --> 01:01:59,320
Speaker 2: to disagree and call us eight at eighty three to

1080
01:01:59,360 --> 01:02:00,240
Speaker 2: one crime.

1081
01:02:00,240 --> 01:02:03,960
Speaker 7: But yeah, no, I agree, and it's and I'm only

1082
01:02:04,000 --> 01:02:06,800
Speaker 7: on episode I think five or six, and I mean,

1083
01:02:07,760 --> 01:02:09,920
Speaker 7: I think my friends are getting kind of irritated with me,

1084
01:02:09,960 --> 01:02:12,800
Speaker 7: going that never happened. This isn't this isn't what happened.

1085
01:02:13,120 --> 01:02:16,080
Speaker 7: It is so dramatized and made up.

1086
01:02:16,720 --> 01:02:19,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's really dangerous by the way, as is

1087
01:02:19,400 --> 01:02:24,920
Speaker 2: ed Gean needed any embellishments. He was one of the scariest, messiest,

1088
01:02:25,680 --> 01:02:31,200
Speaker 2: prolific serial killers ever and I mean the likes of

1089
01:02:31,240 --> 01:02:34,400
Speaker 2: which hopefully we never see again. But yeah, there were

1090
01:02:34,440 --> 01:02:37,720
Speaker 2: all of these like interesting like creative nods maybe to

1091
01:02:37,840 --> 01:02:41,160
Speaker 2: other things, but it seemed like a straight up made

1092
01:02:41,240 --> 01:02:42,400
Speaker 2: up tail.

1093
01:02:42,560 --> 01:02:44,520
Speaker 3: And on top of it, it's real gross.

1094
01:02:44,760 --> 01:02:47,240
Speaker 2: It is pretty real, although they act as adorable, so

1095
01:02:47,360 --> 01:02:52,680
Speaker 2: that's not a daint does that forgive everything so cute?

1096
01:02:51,520 --> 01:02:54,800
Speaker 7: As we should probably talk about some of the forensics

1097
01:02:54,800 --> 01:02:57,880
Speaker 7: with ed Gean since we have Joseph, right, because you

1098
01:02:57,920 --> 01:03:02,040
Speaker 7: know the accuracy of my monsters. Listen, this is a drama, right,

1099
01:03:02,120 --> 01:03:06,000
Speaker 7: it's it's it's for entertainment, right, the Monster series by

1100
01:03:06,080 --> 01:03:08,800
Speaker 7: Ryan Murphy. We all like them, we watch them, but

1101
01:03:08,880 --> 01:03:12,040
Speaker 7: we know they're drama. They're dramatized, right, so keep that

1102
01:03:12,080 --> 01:03:13,920
Speaker 7: in mind when you're watching it. But ed Green was

1103
01:03:13,960 --> 01:03:17,120
Speaker 7: truly a monster, Like, he truly was a monster, and

1104
01:03:17,160 --> 01:03:20,400
Speaker 7: the things that he did, I think personally didn't really

1105
01:03:20,480 --> 01:03:23,480
Speaker 7: need to be dramatized. Telling the true story of the

1106
01:03:23,520 --> 01:03:26,600
Speaker 7: things that he did probably would have been, you know,

1107
01:03:27,280 --> 01:03:30,120
Speaker 7: interesting enough because he was such a monster. So let's

1108
01:03:30,120 --> 01:03:31,560
Speaker 7: go over that kind of stuff right now while we

1109
01:03:31,600 --> 01:03:36,680
Speaker 7: have Joseph. So last season, the Monster at Green story,

1110
01:03:36,960 --> 01:03:40,680
Speaker 7: it premiered on October third to pretty recently, and it,

1111
01:03:40,760 --> 01:03:43,680
Speaker 7: you know, goes through the life and psychological decline and

1112
01:03:43,840 --> 01:03:46,760
Speaker 7: of course violent crimes of ed Gean. He was the

1113
01:03:46,880 --> 01:03:51,120
Speaker 7: murderer and grave robber whose deeds inspired films like Psycho,

1114
01:03:51,640 --> 01:03:56,840
Speaker 7: The Texas Chainsaw Massacre, Silence of the Lambs, Buffalo Bill.

1115
01:03:57,480 --> 01:04:02,760
Speaker 7: You know, like these are real significant American horror movies

1116
01:04:02,800 --> 01:04:05,880
Speaker 7: that were inspired by Edgan. And by the way, I

1117
01:04:05,920 --> 01:04:09,600
Speaker 7: do think the Monsters series, this Ed Green one in particular,

1118
01:04:09,600 --> 01:04:13,280
Speaker 7: did a great job at telling that, at weaving in

1119
01:04:13,400 --> 01:04:15,360
Speaker 7: those stories which I really want to talk to dorawn

1120
01:04:15,400 --> 01:04:18,440
Speaker 7: O fear about our pop culture expert, because he's all

1121
01:04:18,480 --> 01:04:23,280
Speaker 7: about that. But AnyWho, his mom, Augusta, she was like

1122
01:04:23,320 --> 01:04:26,160
Speaker 7: this really strict religious woman who preached about the evils

1123
01:04:26,160 --> 01:04:31,360
Speaker 7: of women and sexuality. That's all very true. Gane idolized

1124
01:04:31,360 --> 01:04:34,680
Speaker 7: her and became psychologically dependent, and when she died, he

1125
01:04:34,760 --> 01:04:38,880
Speaker 7: kind of snapped right. And we know he killed two

1126
01:04:38,960 --> 01:04:42,440
Speaker 7: people that he confessed to and he was also a

1127
01:04:42,440 --> 01:04:46,120
Speaker 7: grave robber. Now, when he was caught, I'm going to

1128
01:04:46,200 --> 01:04:50,560
Speaker 7: use those words, you know, when he was caught, the team,

1129
01:04:51,080 --> 01:04:53,520
Speaker 7: the law enforcement and the medical examiner and all the

1130
01:04:53,520 --> 01:04:56,200
Speaker 7: people that had to process the scene. Joseph, can you

1131
01:04:56,240 --> 01:04:59,480
Speaker 7: imagine the scene that they had walked into, because he

1132
01:04:59,560 --> 01:05:05,120
Speaker 7: really was digging up, digging women upright, and using body parts.

1133
01:05:05,160 --> 01:05:08,640
Speaker 7: There was really a heart in a pot on the stove.

1134
01:05:09,520 --> 01:05:13,840
Speaker 7: Poor Bernice really was hanging from the rafters. Poor Bernice's

1135
01:05:13,880 --> 01:05:18,480
Speaker 7: head was really you know, in the room. There were

1136
01:05:18,600 --> 01:05:22,480
Speaker 7: real things. There really was a chair with human skin.

1137
01:05:22,760 --> 01:05:25,160
Speaker 7: There really was a nipple belt. There really were these

1138
01:05:25,280 --> 01:05:29,160
Speaker 7: awful and brutal things. Now, Joseph, you walk into a

1139
01:05:29,200 --> 01:05:30,800
Speaker 7: scene like this, what do you do?

1140
01:05:32,960 --> 01:05:35,840
Speaker 4: Walk back out the door and say, I'm resigning.

1141
01:05:36,480 --> 01:05:41,200
Speaker 3: I don't blame you, no, no, you.

1142
01:05:41,160 --> 01:05:44,640
Speaker 4: Know I've often you know, because I've followed the Edging

1143
01:05:44,800 --> 01:05:50,840
Speaker 4: case over the years, just you know, peripherally reading about

1144
01:05:50,840 --> 01:05:54,560
Speaker 4: it and those sorts of things, and actually in uh,

1145
01:05:54,680 --> 01:05:56,560
Speaker 4: you know, the first place I ever read about it

1146
01:05:56,720 --> 01:06:00,080
Speaker 4: was actually in high school. I took a class in

1147
01:06:00,160 --> 01:06:04,600
Speaker 4: high school called thanontology, had a pretty cool class which

1148
01:06:04,640 --> 01:06:08,480
Speaker 4: is a study of the dead. And this is the

1149
01:06:08,520 --> 01:06:14,040
Speaker 4: first time I ever learned about ed Geen. And over

1150
01:06:14,080 --> 01:06:19,040
Speaker 4: the years, I've tried to put myself into the place

1151
01:06:19,120 --> 01:06:23,840
Speaker 4: of these detectives and investigators in this isolated, isolated area.

1152
01:06:23,880 --> 01:06:26,880
Speaker 3: I'm sorry. And back then, right before all the Yeah.

1153
01:06:27,040 --> 01:06:29,840
Speaker 4: That's the thing about it. You know, you think about things,

1154
01:06:30,120 --> 01:06:33,240
Speaker 4: you talk about the ultimate noir. This is all in

1155
01:06:33,280 --> 01:06:37,120
Speaker 4: black and white, you know, you think about this, and

1156
01:06:37,200 --> 01:06:40,800
Speaker 4: we're talking about going into a farmhouse in an isolated

1157
01:06:40,840 --> 01:06:45,200
Speaker 4: area of farm property. This dude lit his house with

1158
01:06:45,360 --> 01:06:50,320
Speaker 4: oil lamps, kerosene lamps rather, and that's the illumination that

1159
01:06:50,400 --> 01:06:55,480
Speaker 4: he had in fireplace. So you go into this environment

1160
01:06:55,880 --> 01:06:58,680
Speaker 4: and it's not like today where you know, my phone

1161
01:06:59,600 --> 01:07:03,800
Speaker 4: a lot illuminate a room just with a little light

1162
01:07:03,840 --> 01:07:07,400
Speaker 4: on it. These guys didn't have that all right, and

1163
01:07:07,520 --> 01:07:09,640
Speaker 4: they had to bring out generators and all those sorts

1164
01:07:09,680 --> 01:07:14,160
Speaker 4: of things. But just to walk around and particularly when

1165
01:07:14,160 --> 01:07:17,200
Speaker 4: you get to this poor woman's body that has been

1166
01:07:17,480 --> 01:07:21,840
Speaker 4: trusted that the term is actually trust up. This is

1167
01:07:22,080 --> 01:07:26,480
Speaker 4: a methodology that's used by people that are in the

1168
01:07:26,560 --> 01:07:32,000
Speaker 4: slaughtering business are also deer hunters, big game hunters, where

1169
01:07:32,000 --> 01:07:35,680
Speaker 4: they're actually dressing a body. And when you see this

1170
01:07:35,840 --> 01:07:38,760
Speaker 4: image of her, the black and white image, by the way,

1171
01:07:40,160 --> 01:07:42,680
Speaker 4: you get that feel if you've ever been around deer

1172
01:07:42,720 --> 01:07:45,680
Speaker 4: hunting at all, which I have been my entire life,

1173
01:07:46,360 --> 01:07:49,680
Speaker 4: you can see that someone had that specific knowledge. But

1174
01:07:49,880 --> 01:07:53,000
Speaker 4: to walk into this and you know, my catchphrase has

1175
01:07:53,040 --> 01:07:56,160
Speaker 4: always been and by the way, I'm thinking about copywriting,

1176
01:07:56,200 --> 01:08:00,440
Speaker 4: it is actually observing the abnormal and context of the normal.

1177
01:08:00,480 --> 01:08:03,080
Speaker 4: You walk into somebody's home and you see this, and

1178
01:08:03,120 --> 01:08:05,120
Speaker 4: you see all these other elements that are in there.

1179
01:08:05,280 --> 01:08:07,280
Speaker 4: How do you make sense of this? Particularly in their

1180
01:08:07,320 --> 01:08:10,040
Speaker 4: minds back then, because this is the ultimate and evil.

1181
01:08:10,840 --> 01:08:13,440
Speaker 4: It'd be the ultimate and evil nowadays, even in this

1182
01:08:14,040 --> 01:08:16,519
Speaker 4: crazy world we live in now where we see all

1183
01:08:16,560 --> 01:08:20,519
Speaker 4: of this stuff, but back then, how much even more

1184
01:08:20,560 --> 01:08:23,879
Speaker 4: so they couldn't explain this That's one of the reasons

1185
01:08:23,920 --> 01:08:26,920
Speaker 4: the stam House got burned down years later, because they

1186
01:08:26,960 --> 01:08:28,760
Speaker 4: got tired of people going out there. They saw this

1187
01:08:28,840 --> 01:08:32,720
Speaker 4: place just like the center, the epicenter of evil. But yeah,

1188
01:08:32,760 --> 01:08:35,360
Speaker 4: it's such everything together. I'm sorry.

1189
01:08:35,439 --> 01:08:37,640
Speaker 7: And this is a curiosity for people. So people are

1190
01:08:37,680 --> 01:08:41,680
Speaker 7: just showing up. Yeah, so just this farmhouse, this evil farmhouse,

1191
01:08:41,760 --> 01:08:45,600
Speaker 7: like this is a local curiosity people are driving to.

1192
01:08:45,120 --> 01:08:46,559
Speaker 3: They had to get rid of it.

1193
01:08:46,640 --> 01:08:47,759
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, they did.

1194
01:08:47,720 --> 01:08:50,040
Speaker 4: Not, And correct me if I'm wrong. I think that

1195
01:08:50,240 --> 01:08:53,040
Speaker 4: you know, his headstone was stolen.

1196
01:08:53,080 --> 01:08:55,200
Speaker 3: Yeah it was, and they didn't replace it.

1197
01:08:55,600 --> 01:08:59,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, left. I wouldn't either, And but you know, just

1198
01:08:59,240 --> 01:09:04,200
Speaker 4: think about it. He's buried in the lot adjacent to

1199
01:09:04,240 --> 01:09:10,040
Speaker 4: where Augusta was buried his mother, and I'm assuming that

1200
01:09:10,160 --> 01:09:14,920
Speaker 4: some of the bodies that he actually dug up were

1201
01:09:14,960 --> 01:09:18,960
Speaker 4: in the same graveyard. You know, we're talking forty now.

1202
01:09:19,000 --> 01:09:23,280
Speaker 4: He's what would be classified as a necrophile. He is

1203
01:09:24,000 --> 01:09:26,479
Speaker 4: through and through a necrophile. He loved to play with

1204
01:09:26,520 --> 01:09:29,800
Speaker 4: the dead, and these people do exist and they sexualize

1205
01:09:29,840 --> 01:09:34,360
Speaker 4: the dead. He had been studying in the wake of

1206
01:09:34,400 --> 01:09:38,719
Speaker 4: his mother's death. He'd been studying taxidermy anyway, which would

1207
01:09:38,920 --> 01:09:42,280
Speaker 4: enable his ability to do things like, you know, preserve

1208
01:09:43,320 --> 01:09:49,680
Speaker 4: preserve elements of bodies, also tanning, tanning of hides, that

1209
01:09:49,760 --> 01:09:51,920
Speaker 4: sort of thing. And that's how he can create these

1210
01:09:52,040 --> 01:09:55,400
Speaker 4: leather creations that are as horrible as that is, that

1211
01:09:55,479 --> 01:09:59,519
Speaker 4: were resilient enough so that he could use them as clothing.

1212
01:10:00,240 --> 01:10:03,479
Speaker 4: But here's the problem. Here's the problem that they would

1213
01:10:03,520 --> 01:10:06,760
Speaker 4: have run into back then. And again I'm putting a

1214
01:10:06,800 --> 01:10:11,800
Speaker 4: modern mind to this. How do you match everything up?

1215
01:10:12,040 --> 01:10:12,280
Speaker 3: Right?

1216
01:10:12,880 --> 01:10:13,559
Speaker 4: That's the rub.

1217
01:10:14,000 --> 01:10:17,400
Speaker 7: Yeah, there's no DNA, right, there's no DNA testing. So

1218
01:10:17,479 --> 01:10:19,519
Speaker 7: what did they do? How do they do this?

1219
01:10:20,120 --> 01:10:22,320
Speaker 4: Yeah? Well, you know we're not too far removed from

1220
01:10:22,320 --> 01:10:25,519
Speaker 4: that time to tell the truth. You know, I've worked

1221
01:10:25,560 --> 01:10:29,000
Speaker 4: I've worked cases where I've had multiple deaths in things

1222
01:10:29,040 --> 01:10:35,120
Speaker 4: like plane crashes, okay, and when you have particulated remains. Uh.

1223
01:10:35,240 --> 01:10:37,800
Speaker 4: And we see this in any mass fatality event. You know,

1224
01:10:38,040 --> 01:10:40,479
Speaker 4: God rest their souls. But the victims nine to eleven,

1225
01:10:40,640 --> 01:10:44,280
Speaker 4: you know, you had this, this happened. Explosions, you have

1226
01:10:44,360 --> 01:10:46,599
Speaker 4: this happen. We just have this tragedy that's just happened

1227
01:10:46,600 --> 01:10:48,600
Speaker 4: in Tennessee. God bless those people.

1228
01:10:48,360 --> 01:10:48,800
Speaker 3: By the way.

1229
01:10:49,080 --> 01:10:53,320
Speaker 4: Horrible case. Uh, where you have all of these elements

1230
01:10:53,320 --> 01:10:55,559
Speaker 4: of human remains that are about and you're trying to

1231
01:10:56,360 --> 01:10:59,559
Speaker 4: you know, you're trying to literally marry them up. We

1232
01:10:59,760 --> 01:11:04,599
Speaker 4: have the ability nowadays of doing DNA testing, but back

1233
01:11:04,640 --> 01:11:09,280
Speaker 4: then they would not, and you're trying to piece something together.

1234
01:11:09,760 --> 01:11:14,800
Speaker 4: It's literally the most grotesque jigsaw puzzle you can imagine,

1235
01:11:15,600 --> 01:11:19,240
Speaker 4: because you know, you're looking for elements relative to the

1236
01:11:19,320 --> 01:11:24,800
Speaker 4: size the size of the element, where was it disarticulated

1237
01:11:24,880 --> 01:11:27,920
Speaker 4: from Do you have anything that still remains that you

1238
01:11:27,960 --> 01:11:30,880
Speaker 4: can marry it up to that you can kind of

1239
01:11:30,920 --> 01:11:33,960
Speaker 4: claim ownership of it for this particular remain, there are

1240
01:11:33,960 --> 01:11:38,240
Speaker 4: cases all over the world where you've had mass fatality

1241
01:11:38,240 --> 01:11:40,960
Speaker 4: events where they live and as horrible as this is,

1242
01:11:41,000 --> 01:11:42,760
Speaker 4: and I got to tell folks that this is.

1243
01:11:42,720 --> 01:11:43,639
Speaker 11: Part of the real world.

1244
01:11:44,479 --> 01:11:47,240
Speaker 4: You literally have parts that are left over. If you

1245
01:11:47,240 --> 01:11:50,639
Speaker 4: can just imagine that, that's something that happens, and that's

1246
01:11:50,640 --> 01:11:55,599
Speaker 4: something they would be faced with here. Because the problem

1247
01:11:55,720 --> 01:11:57,880
Speaker 4: is with Gain, you don't know what he did with

1248
01:11:57,960 --> 01:12:03,639
Speaker 4: the rest of the remains. There were elements of female

1249
01:12:03,760 --> 01:12:08,559
Speaker 4: reproductive evidence i'm sorry, organs that were that he had taken,

1250
01:12:10,640 --> 01:12:14,880
Speaker 4: even some that were as horrible as this is, non

1251
01:12:14,920 --> 01:12:19,720
Speaker 4: adult there were even children's clothes that were there. To me,

1252
01:12:19,880 --> 01:12:21,960
Speaker 4: that's one of the most disturbing things, because you know,

1253
01:12:22,280 --> 01:12:24,599
Speaker 4: people have teetered on this idea. Was he a serial

1254
01:12:24,680 --> 01:12:28,960
Speaker 4: killer or not? Okay, we know that he killed two people,

1255
01:12:29,760 --> 01:12:32,400
Speaker 4: but who's unaccounted for? And can you go back in

1256
01:12:32,479 --> 01:12:36,080
Speaker 4: Tom and Tom? Who was unaccounted for? Also? Where were

1257
01:12:36,160 --> 01:12:40,160
Speaker 4: all of these remains buried? This is a curious thing too.

1258
01:12:40,479 --> 01:12:42,519
Speaker 4: If you had a collection of remains that you did

1259
01:12:42,560 --> 01:12:46,320
Speaker 4: not know who they were, and you did bury them

1260
01:12:46,400 --> 01:12:50,600
Speaker 4: in one location, could we use this technology today to

1261
01:12:50,680 --> 01:12:55,080
Speaker 4: go back with like investigative genetic genealogy and take any

1262
01:12:55,080 --> 01:12:58,160
Speaker 4: of those remains and take samples DNA wise, I don't

1263
01:12:58,200 --> 01:13:00,799
Speaker 4: know how well they were preserved. Well did he preserve

1264
01:13:00,880 --> 01:13:03,000
Speaker 4: him enough? And is there still any kind of Bible

1265
01:13:03,080 --> 01:13:05,840
Speaker 4: DNA left behind? I think that that would be a

1266
01:13:05,880 --> 01:13:10,479
Speaker 4: fascinating explanation, you know, to try to understand those elements

1267
01:13:10,479 --> 01:13:13,640
Speaker 4: as well. Yeah, the horror I think for in it.

1268
01:13:13,960 --> 01:13:16,320
Speaker 4: You know, again, I'm speaking to people that have long

1269
01:13:16,360 --> 01:13:19,160
Speaker 4: since passed away, but I cannot even begin to fathom

1270
01:13:19,200 --> 01:13:23,160
Speaker 4: the horror that they experienced when they walked in this place.

1271
01:13:24,439 --> 01:13:28,160
Speaker 7: Unimaginable, absolutely unimaginable, and it's important to know.

1272
01:13:28,240 --> 01:13:31,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, he was only tied to two murders.

1273
01:13:32,320 --> 01:13:35,439
Speaker 7: There is there were like the for instance, in the

1274
01:13:35,640 --> 01:13:40,120
Speaker 7: in the show, he kills the babysitter Evelyn because she

1275
01:13:40,200 --> 01:13:44,519
Speaker 7: took his job, but that never happened. This girl really

1276
01:13:44,560 --> 01:13:47,160
Speaker 7: did go missing. She was she was a babysitter in

1277
01:13:47,200 --> 01:13:52,080
Speaker 7: a totally different area of Wisconsin, but she was never

1278
01:13:52,280 --> 01:13:57,000
Speaker 7: tied to Edgeen. They did question him, but he he

1279
01:13:57,040 --> 01:14:00,760
Speaker 7: said no, there there were a lot of things, but yeah,

1280
01:14:00,800 --> 01:14:03,960
Speaker 7: he officially only killed two people. He's not even officially

1281
01:14:05,160 --> 01:14:08,960
Speaker 7: accredited with killing his brother, even though it suspected that

1282
01:14:08,960 --> 01:14:09,200
Speaker 7: he did.

1283
01:14:09,240 --> 01:14:11,840
Speaker 4: The circumstances are really curious, though, Right, how did your

1284
01:14:11,840 --> 01:14:15,120
Speaker 4: brother spontaneously catch on fire relative to you know, a

1285
01:14:15,120 --> 01:14:15,719
Speaker 4: brush fire.

1286
01:14:16,080 --> 01:14:16,200
Speaker 7: Right?

1287
01:14:16,320 --> 01:14:19,160
Speaker 4: And plus he had a pretty nasty head wound if

1288
01:14:19,200 --> 01:14:21,880
Speaker 4: I remember correct, Yeah, might be remembering, but.

1289
01:14:21,920 --> 01:14:25,640
Speaker 7: Yeah, they said he had bruising or or something that

1290
01:14:25,640 --> 01:14:27,519
Speaker 7: that nature. Would have to go back and read and

1291
01:14:27,760 --> 01:14:30,439
Speaker 7: look at it. But yeah, there was no official tie,

1292
01:14:30,479 --> 01:14:34,200
Speaker 7: but they suspected. They suspected he did. And he also

1293
01:14:34,400 --> 01:14:39,280
Speaker 7: said he never had sex with the corpses. He said

1294
01:14:39,360 --> 01:14:42,200
Speaker 7: the smell deterred him, but just.

1295
01:14:42,160 --> 01:14:46,680
Speaker 4: Because he's not having sexual relations with a corpse does

1296
01:14:46,720 --> 01:14:49,080
Speaker 4: not mean he didn't sexualize course, correct.

1297
01:14:49,479 --> 01:14:52,719
Speaker 3: I was just saying from the show. Sorry, dis correct myself.

1298
01:14:52,760 --> 01:14:53,400
Speaker 3: From the show.

1299
01:14:54,080 --> 01:14:56,760
Speaker 7: They you know, they imply that he was, you know,

1300
01:14:58,400 --> 01:15:02,040
Speaker 7: doing that, and there's no evidence that he did. Now,

1301
01:15:02,040 --> 01:15:05,200
Speaker 7: I do think he was sexualizing them one hundred million percent,

1302
01:15:05,320 --> 01:15:08,559
Speaker 7: just based on what he was collecting, right, Yeah.

1303
01:15:08,600 --> 01:15:12,360
Speaker 4: And I think that the fact that they found, well,

1304
01:15:12,400 --> 01:15:16,639
Speaker 4: these victims are all female, with the exception of his brother,

1305
01:15:16,680 --> 01:15:19,240
Speaker 4: and that can't necessarily be tied to him. But the

1306
01:15:19,280 --> 01:15:22,000
Speaker 4: fact that he would have the skulls, you know, on

1307
01:15:22,240 --> 01:15:27,559
Speaker 4: his bedpost, I think speaks speaks to his sexualization as well.

1308
01:15:28,320 --> 01:15:30,720
Speaker 4: These elements that are throughout the house, So you know,

1309
01:15:30,720 --> 01:15:33,240
Speaker 4: what kind of utility did he have for them? It

1310
01:15:33,320 --> 01:15:35,320
Speaker 4: were curious and absolutely chilling.

1311
01:15:35,920 --> 01:15:40,360
Speaker 6: This is heavy stuff ed gean and necrophilia. But stick

1312
01:15:40,400 --> 01:15:42,960
Speaker 6: around because after the break we are going to be

1313
01:15:43,080 --> 01:15:46,240
Speaker 6: hearing from you. We are drawn by forensic expert Joseph

1314
01:15:46,240 --> 01:15:48,439
Speaker 6: Scott Morgan, So give us a call if you have questions,

1315
01:15:48,880 --> 01:15:51,280
Speaker 6: edit a through to one crime keep it here True

1316
01:15:51,320 --> 01:16:00,600
Speaker 6: Crime Tonight.

1317
01:16:02,600 --> 01:16:05,559
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We've been

1318
01:16:05,560 --> 01:16:08,160
Speaker 2: talking true crime all the time. I'm Steph here with

1319
01:16:08,240 --> 01:16:11,960
Speaker 2: Courtney and Body. The whole gang is here minus Taha.

1320
01:16:11,960 --> 01:16:14,920
Speaker 2: We have Ava Kaplan in the house. She's sitting in

1321
01:16:14,960 --> 01:16:17,960
Speaker 2: for Taha of course, Adam and Sam and because it's

1322
01:16:18,000 --> 01:16:22,760
Speaker 2: scientific Sunday, Joseph Scott Morgan, host of the hit podcast

1323
01:16:22,840 --> 01:16:26,400
Speaker 2: body Bags, joins us again for all Things Forensics Listen.

1324
01:16:26,439 --> 01:16:28,880
Speaker 2: We've been doing our listen. It's a slow burn, so

1325
01:16:29,000 --> 01:16:31,400
Speaker 2: we don't want to get ahead of ourselves. But we

1326
01:16:31,640 --> 01:16:34,960
Speaker 2: are all wearing our weighted vests. I just took mine

1327
01:16:34,960 --> 01:16:36,040
Speaker 2: off because.

1328
01:16:37,240 --> 01:16:39,080
Speaker 3: We gotta do it. Instance it can't be for the

1329
01:16:39,120 --> 01:16:42,080
Speaker 3: whole two hours. That's crazy. I did that on Thursday

1330
01:16:42,080 --> 01:16:45,920
Speaker 3: and I couldn't walk on Friday. So thanks for all

1331
01:16:45,960 --> 01:16:46,400
Speaker 3: the calls.

1332
01:16:46,479 --> 01:16:49,120
Speaker 2: We've been getting a lot of talkbacks and dms about

1333
01:16:49,680 --> 01:16:52,960
Speaker 2: some like commercial break exercises that we're doing.

1334
01:16:53,479 --> 01:16:56,000
Speaker 3: We all have our body got her vest I did.

1335
01:16:56,320 --> 01:16:59,240
Speaker 7: I got lost and I'm surprised at how heavy it is.

1336
01:16:59,360 --> 01:17:01,519
Speaker 7: I was like, oh my gosh, Yes, I didn't realize

1337
01:17:01,520 --> 01:17:04,920
Speaker 7: how much ten pounds was. Well, I recently lost ten pounds,

1338
01:17:04,960 --> 01:17:07,080
Speaker 7: so I'm like, oh my gosh, it's heavy.

1339
01:17:07,200 --> 01:17:07,719
Speaker 3: That's heavy.

1340
01:17:08,160 --> 01:17:10,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's like we have to start in a

1341
01:17:10,600 --> 01:17:13,720
Speaker 2: very very small weight, like my weights are only a

1342
01:17:13,760 --> 01:17:14,360
Speaker 2: pound each.

1343
01:17:14,800 --> 01:17:17,040
Speaker 7: So just like by the way, way I didn't know this,

1344
01:17:17,160 --> 01:17:19,519
Speaker 7: but I wore it for forty minutes on the show too.

1345
01:17:19,520 --> 01:17:21,200
Speaker 3: Which is way too long and it's way too long

1346
01:17:21,680 --> 01:17:24,559
Speaker 3: word for fifteen, I wore forty you know, I know.

1347
01:17:24,800 --> 01:17:27,439
Speaker 3: So we have to do it for like one act.

1348
01:17:27,880 --> 01:17:31,320
Speaker 2: So we're going to kind of work out our internal

1349
01:17:32,160 --> 01:17:35,280
Speaker 2: ridiculous exercise regime. But it seems like we've gotten a

1350
01:17:35,320 --> 01:17:37,800
Speaker 2: lot of feedback, so if you want to join in,

1351
01:17:38,640 --> 01:17:40,840
Speaker 2: you can use water bottles that you don't have to

1352
01:17:40,840 --> 01:17:41,479
Speaker 2: buy weights.

1353
01:17:41,520 --> 01:17:45,000
Speaker 3: You can just use two full water bottles or one

1354
01:17:45,080 --> 01:17:45,799
Speaker 3: water bottle.

1355
01:17:46,040 --> 01:17:49,920
Speaker 2: It's really we're taking this at the very slow burn,

1356
01:17:50,439 --> 01:17:53,880
Speaker 2: but everything counts. So anyway, thanks for the messages, and

1357
01:17:54,320 --> 01:17:56,479
Speaker 2: if you've missed any of the first hour of the show,

1358
01:17:56,680 --> 01:17:59,679
Speaker 2: or frankly any of the show, just catch us after

1359
01:17:59,800 --> 01:18:03,760
Speaker 2: as podcast and please join in if you want to

1360
01:18:03,840 --> 01:18:06,599
Speaker 2: join us for a call eight eight eight three one crime.

1361
01:18:06,640 --> 01:18:08,000
Speaker 3: But let's go to a talk back now.

1362
01:18:11,160 --> 01:18:13,200
Speaker 12: Hi, I was wondering if you guys have seen the

1363
01:18:13,200 --> 01:18:17,000
Speaker 12: new Hulu documentary A Death in Apartment six of three

1364
01:18:17,280 --> 01:18:19,799
Speaker 12: I've watched it recently and I'm just like, really curious

1365
01:18:19,840 --> 01:18:22,400
Speaker 12: what your thoughts are. Do you think like she was

1366
01:18:22,600 --> 01:18:24,479
Speaker 12: murdered or do you think it was a suicide. I'm

1367
01:18:24,520 --> 01:18:26,519
Speaker 12: just like, I'd really love to hear your take on it.

1368
01:18:27,840 --> 01:18:30,240
Speaker 7: So I haven't seen the documentary. Yeah, now I think

1369
01:18:30,280 --> 01:18:32,000
Speaker 7: we should be watching it for true crime.

1370
01:18:31,880 --> 01:18:35,320
Speaker 2: And chill, let's do that. Let's do not do ed Gean.

1371
01:18:35,840 --> 01:18:38,040
Speaker 2: You can all watch it, Gan, I'm sure it's brilliant.

1372
01:18:38,160 --> 01:18:40,639
Speaker 2: We like Ryan Murphy, of course, a little a little

1373
01:18:40,640 --> 01:18:44,920
Speaker 2: gory though if you get queasy easy. But let's Ellen Senberg.

1374
01:18:45,040 --> 01:18:46,960
Speaker 2: Seem like that we could be actionable.

1375
01:18:47,000 --> 01:18:49,120
Speaker 7: And I think we're all kind of familiar with Ellen

1376
01:18:49,160 --> 01:18:53,080
Speaker 7: Greenberg's case. Of course, Joseph is incredibly familiar. He's the expert.

1377
01:18:53,200 --> 01:18:56,840
Speaker 7: I believe without even watching this documentary, just knowing what

1378
01:18:56,880 --> 01:18:59,360
Speaker 7: I do know about the case, I don't believe Ellen

1379
01:18:59,400 --> 01:19:01,280
Speaker 7: Greenberg herself at all.

1380
01:19:02,600 --> 01:19:03,639
Speaker 3: I just know for a.

1381
01:19:03,600 --> 01:19:05,800
Speaker 2: Fact because I listened to Joseph Scott Morgan all the

1382
01:19:05,840 --> 01:19:07,559
Speaker 2: time talking about Ellen Greenberg.

1383
01:19:08,160 --> 01:19:11,479
Speaker 3: It was not a suicide. It was murder. Absolutely. I'm

1384
01:19:11,520 --> 01:19:14,200
Speaker 3: not saying it's a fact. Allegedly, allegedly, allegedly.

1385
01:19:15,120 --> 01:19:18,920
Speaker 6: However, stabbing your own self in the back x amount

1386
01:19:18,920 --> 01:19:20,839
Speaker 6: of time and all of the other stuff.

1387
01:19:20,880 --> 01:19:25,400
Speaker 5: So, but I'm intrigued to watch the watch the doc So.

1388
01:19:25,520 --> 01:19:27,840
Speaker 7: Let's so we're gonna we're gonna take two weeks to

1389
01:19:27,840 --> 01:19:30,240
Speaker 7: watch it. Well, we'll discuss it on True Crime and Chill.

1390
01:19:30,400 --> 01:19:31,719
Speaker 7: Not this Wednesday, but the following.

1391
01:19:32,400 --> 01:19:34,439
Speaker 2: It gives people some tallendar We got to get our

1392
01:19:34,479 --> 01:19:37,320
Speaker 2: calendars out right now and pencil this in. Yeah, pencil,

1393
01:19:37,400 --> 01:19:40,800
Speaker 2: my goodness. Okay, so wait, I have a highlighter. So okay,

1394
01:19:40,840 --> 01:19:44,599
Speaker 2: I know what my marching orders are. Everyone join in listen,

1395
01:19:44,680 --> 01:19:46,559
Speaker 2: and it can't just be us talking about it. We

1396
01:19:46,600 --> 01:19:49,040
Speaker 2: want to hear from you and your thoughts about it.

1397
01:19:49,040 --> 01:19:52,200
Speaker 2: That's the whole point. We're all in this conversation together.

1398
01:19:52,439 --> 01:19:55,600
Speaker 2: Joseph is like sitting on his hands. He's trying not

1399
01:19:55,760 --> 01:19:58,040
Speaker 2: to jump in because he's literally the expert. He's doing

1400
01:19:58,160 --> 01:20:01,439
Speaker 2: more research on this case. It must be so painful

1401
01:20:01,520 --> 01:20:03,680
Speaker 2: to listen to us jabberon right now about it.

1402
01:20:03,960 --> 01:20:05,719
Speaker 3: Joseph, what do you think? Should this be the next

1403
01:20:05,880 --> 01:20:06,840
Speaker 3: True Crime and Chill?

1404
01:20:07,320 --> 01:20:12,000
Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, definitely. And for the memory of Ellen, that's

1405
01:20:12,040 --> 01:20:14,280
Speaker 4: what it comes down to, you exact. I've been covering

1406
01:20:14,280 --> 01:20:19,240
Speaker 4: a case for several years now, and it's and I

1407
01:20:19,320 --> 01:20:22,360
Speaker 4: know her parents spent a lot of time with them,

1408
01:20:23,240 --> 01:20:29,080
Speaker 4: and it's heartbreaking on so many levels. And it's not

1409
01:20:29,680 --> 01:20:32,680
Speaker 4: simply about Ellen's death. It's also about the journey that

1410
01:20:32,760 --> 01:20:35,720
Speaker 4: her parents have been on in an advanced age in

1411
01:20:35,760 --> 01:20:39,040
Speaker 4: their life. If you can imagine this sys their only child,

1412
01:20:39,800 --> 01:20:42,320
Speaker 4: you know, when when she was found deceased in that

1413
01:20:42,400 --> 01:20:46,120
Speaker 4: apartment all those years ago. Now looking back in time,

1414
01:20:46,200 --> 01:20:49,719
Speaker 4: I can't believe how much time has passed now. And yeah,

1415
01:20:50,479 --> 01:20:56,720
Speaker 4: this is certainly something that is worthy of having a

1416
01:20:56,720 --> 01:21:01,960
Speaker 4: discussion about. I'll just put it to this way. The

1417
01:21:02,040 --> 01:21:09,680
Speaker 4: injuries that Ellen sustained, in my opinion, are almost biomechanically

1418
01:21:10,520 --> 01:21:17,840
Speaker 4: impossible to self generate. If you'll just imagine trying to

1419
01:21:17,880 --> 01:21:24,200
Speaker 4: reach over your shoulder and drive a knife into your

1420
01:21:24,320 --> 01:21:28,400
Speaker 4: upper back and into your neck and into the back

1421
01:21:28,439 --> 01:21:33,680
Speaker 4: of your head and having those kinds of insults on

1422
01:21:33,720 --> 01:21:37,160
Speaker 4: the surface of your posterior. Oh and then to boot

1423
01:21:37,280 --> 01:21:40,280
Speaker 4: you've got just as many on the front as well.

1424
01:21:41,520 --> 01:21:43,200
Speaker 4: For any of you guys out there that are very

1425
01:21:43,240 --> 01:21:46,559
Speaker 4: experienced a paper cut, and you know how painful that is.

1426
01:21:47,479 --> 01:21:52,519
Speaker 4: Just imagine if you will taking a knife and driving

1427
01:21:52,520 --> 01:21:54,559
Speaker 4: it through your skin over and over and over again.

1428
01:21:55,640 --> 01:21:59,800
Speaker 4: It's almost an empirical impossibility for this to have gone

1429
01:21:59,840 --> 01:22:04,720
Speaker 4: down like some people suggest that it did. And all

1430
01:22:04,720 --> 01:22:06,320
Speaker 4: I all I can do is look at the physical

1431
01:22:06,360 --> 01:22:10,880
Speaker 4: evidence and draw my own conclusions. And my conclusions are

1432
01:22:11,200 --> 01:22:14,880
Speaker 4: that this is something other than self inflicted. And no,

1433
01:22:15,880 --> 01:22:20,120
Speaker 4: she did not fall on an eye, which is yeah,

1434
01:22:20,479 --> 01:22:23,760
Speaker 4: it's yeah, it's it's it's absolute poppy cock.

1435
01:22:23,880 --> 01:22:28,920
Speaker 7: It's absurd, it's insulting, like it's insulting to Ellen's memory

1436
01:22:29,000 --> 01:22:30,160
Speaker 7: and our intelligence.

1437
01:22:31,040 --> 01:22:34,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, it is into Josh and Sandy, her parents. Yeah,

1438
01:22:35,160 --> 01:22:38,280
Speaker 4: it certainly is as well. And you know, I have

1439
01:22:38,320 --> 01:22:41,880
Speaker 4: to I cannot imagine for me personally as a daddy

1440
01:22:41,920 --> 01:22:46,519
Speaker 4: and grandpa. I can't imagine. I can. I think I can,

1441
01:22:46,760 --> 01:22:49,960
Speaker 4: but you never know until you're in those shoes. How

1442
01:22:50,320 --> 01:22:55,360
Speaker 4: people throw around the word bravery a lot, and when

1443
01:22:55,400 --> 01:22:58,040
Speaker 4: you see what they have gone through and endured. I'm

1444
01:22:58,040 --> 01:23:01,800
Speaker 4: talking about having to sell their home, uh, you know,

1445
01:23:02,520 --> 01:23:07,240
Speaker 4: to finance everything they financed just to keep her case alive.

1446
01:23:08,320 --> 01:23:13,439
Speaker 4: At this point is it's just gut wretching and horrible,

1447
01:23:13,560 --> 01:23:17,840
Speaker 4: absolutely horrible, and the fight that they've had to fight yeah,

1448
01:23:17,880 --> 01:23:21,120
Speaker 4: I suggest that you guys do this, watch the Hulu.

1449
01:23:21,280 --> 01:23:21,920
Speaker 4: Watch the Hulu.

1450
01:23:22,040 --> 01:23:22,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's what we're going to do.

1451
01:23:22,960 --> 01:23:25,559
Speaker 7: The Apartment Death and Apartment four oh three, I think

1452
01:23:25,560 --> 01:23:27,040
Speaker 7: it's called We're going to watch that.

1453
01:23:27,080 --> 01:23:27,839
Speaker 3: It's on Hulu.

1454
01:23:28,240 --> 01:23:30,960
Speaker 7: I have to resubscribe to my who. I don't have

1455
01:23:31,000 --> 01:23:32,000
Speaker 7: it anymore, so I need.

1456
01:23:31,880 --> 01:23:32,519
Speaker 3: To re up it.

1457
01:23:32,560 --> 01:23:33,840
Speaker 7: And I'm going to do that and I'm going to

1458
01:23:33,880 --> 01:23:36,479
Speaker 7: watch it. Six o three. Thank you, yeah, six o three,

1459
01:23:37,280 --> 01:23:37,559
Speaker 7: thank you?

1460
01:23:37,600 --> 01:23:38,160
Speaker 3: So much money.

1461
01:23:38,200 --> 01:23:39,960
Speaker 9: I pay so much money for the Hulu with all

1462
01:23:39,960 --> 01:23:42,760
Speaker 9: the commercials. I know that's why I cancel it. I

1463
01:23:42,840 --> 01:23:46,360
Speaker 9: was like, what is happening? I have so many subscriptions.

1464
01:23:46,760 --> 01:23:49,040
Speaker 9: I have so many I need to ansle them. We

1465
01:23:49,080 --> 01:23:54,600
Speaker 9: need to get like another side job for our subscriptions.

1466
01:23:54,760 --> 01:23:58,519
Speaker 2: I know it's incredible, it's incredible. But yes, okay, so

1467
01:23:59,080 --> 01:24:00,040
Speaker 2: I for some reason you.

1468
01:24:00,120 --> 01:24:01,439
Speaker 3: Don't have Hulu. I don't know.

1469
01:24:01,439 --> 01:24:03,439
Speaker 2: Maybe there's a workaround we should all talk about, but

1470
01:24:03,600 --> 01:24:05,280
Speaker 2: it is. I know these are expensive.

1471
01:24:05,640 --> 01:24:10,479
Speaker 6: Find a friend, make a deal, oh a free trial,

1472
01:24:10,520 --> 01:24:11,880
Speaker 6: and you got to remember to cancel it.

1473
01:24:12,040 --> 01:24:14,120
Speaker 5: My mother's great at that.

1474
01:24:13,439 --> 01:24:15,280
Speaker 3: I bet Betty is.

1475
01:24:15,439 --> 01:24:17,280
Speaker 2: She knows what's up and she knows how to get

1476
01:24:17,280 --> 01:24:19,600
Speaker 2: that right, right, You had a set o' clock for

1477
01:24:19,640 --> 01:24:20,519
Speaker 2: the seven day trial.

1478
01:24:20,920 --> 01:24:22,280
Speaker 3: Yep, clever clever.

1479
01:24:22,800 --> 01:24:27,360
Speaker 7: So my understanding is that we are going to take

1480
01:24:27,400 --> 01:24:31,320
Speaker 7: a caller as soon as we do this message. You're

1481
01:24:31,360 --> 01:24:33,320
Speaker 7: listening to True Crime tonight. We talk true crime all

1482
01:24:33,320 --> 01:24:35,320
Speaker 7: the time. We are right in the middle of talking

1483
01:24:35,320 --> 01:24:37,639
Speaker 7: to Joseph Scott Morgan and we are going to take

1484
01:24:37,640 --> 01:24:38,040
Speaker 7: a call.

1485
01:24:38,840 --> 01:24:43,559
Speaker 3: Hi, welcome to the show. Hi Hill, You're so happy

1486
01:24:43,600 --> 01:24:45,439
Speaker 3: you h Brittany? How are you, Brittany?

1487
01:24:46,520 --> 01:24:48,880
Speaker 13: I'm great. How are you? Thank you for calling?

1488
01:24:49,400 --> 01:24:51,519
Speaker 3: Of course, of course tell us everything.

1489
01:24:52,160 --> 01:24:57,479
Speaker 13: Okay, So you guys have asked what what got you

1490
01:24:57,520 --> 01:24:59,360
Speaker 13: into true crime? And I had a bit of an

1491
01:24:59,439 --> 01:25:02,160
Speaker 13: unusual story and I thought you guys would like to

1492
01:25:02,200 --> 01:25:02,599
Speaker 13: hear it.

1493
01:25:02,880 --> 01:25:03,320
Speaker 3: Always.

1494
01:25:03,800 --> 01:25:11,720
Speaker 13: Yes, so my mom actually dated a serial killer. Of

1495
01:25:11,720 --> 01:25:13,640
Speaker 13: course she did not know. I have to pass this

1496
01:25:13,760 --> 01:25:15,719
Speaker 13: by saying she did not know this at the time.

1497
01:25:16,120 --> 01:25:19,479
Speaker 13: She found out about twenty years later. Yeah, that's what

1498
01:25:19,560 --> 01:25:21,840
Speaker 13: I said. I'm like, are you sure, like you know,

1499
01:25:21,960 --> 01:25:25,160
Speaker 13: no red flags? You didn't find anything? No, No, she

1500
01:25:25,200 --> 01:25:28,160
Speaker 13: says she found it out just by her reaction. I

1501
01:25:28,479 --> 01:25:30,799
Speaker 13: think it was pretty genuine.

1502
01:25:31,240 --> 01:25:33,479
Speaker 3: So what's okay? So who what's the story.

1503
01:25:34,000 --> 01:25:37,519
Speaker 13: So his name is William Seife. So I'm from Canada,

1504
01:25:38,240 --> 01:25:41,800
Speaker 13: Montreal specifically. We love Montreal, my mom.

1505
01:25:42,000 --> 01:25:43,519
Speaker 3: I love Montreal. It's so beautiful.

1506
01:25:43,760 --> 01:25:47,639
Speaker 13: Oh, yes, you've been. Oh of course, I guess right,

1507
01:25:47,680 --> 01:25:50,559
Speaker 13: because of the whole Did you go to the Yeah,

1508
01:25:50,560 --> 01:25:51,599
Speaker 13: did you go to the trial?

1509
01:25:51,840 --> 01:25:52,360
Speaker 3: No? I did not.

1510
01:25:53,080 --> 01:25:56,120
Speaker 13: Oh, okay, okay, no, but I assume you would have been.

1511
01:25:56,160 --> 01:25:59,280
Speaker 13: That's true. So, yeah, my mom was dating this guy

1512
01:25:59,400 --> 01:26:03,360
Speaker 13: when she was about about seventeen or eighteen at the

1513
01:26:03,400 --> 01:26:06,920
Speaker 13: time he was twenty four. This is in nineteen seventy nine,

1514
01:26:07,080 --> 01:26:12,800
Speaker 13: nineteen eighty. They were both on vacation and Gaspe. They

1515
01:26:12,800 --> 01:26:14,800
Speaker 13: both lived in Montreal. They just happened to me while

1516
01:26:14,840 --> 01:26:17,280
Speaker 13: on vacation at the same spot. So they hung out

1517
01:26:17,320 --> 01:26:20,000
Speaker 13: there and kind of continued a relationship for about nine months.

1518
01:26:20,000 --> 01:26:23,560
Speaker 13: When they got back home. Brittany, she said.

1519
01:26:23,000 --> 01:26:25,840
Speaker 3: Waiting on you said she started dating him in nineteen

1520
01:26:25,880 --> 01:26:26,759
Speaker 3: seventy nine.

1521
01:26:27,920 --> 01:26:31,480
Speaker 13: Nineteen seventy nine, nineteen eighty. Yeah, and she was seventeen

1522
01:26:31,560 --> 01:26:32,479
Speaker 13: or eighteen at the time.

1523
01:26:32,880 --> 01:26:39,440
Speaker 3: He was active in nineteen seventy nine. Yeah, I really goodness,

1524
01:26:40,000 --> 01:26:43,280
Speaker 3: Okay about there, she just had a brush with Oh

1525
01:26:43,360 --> 01:26:45,479
Speaker 3: my god, Oh my goodness, thank goodness, which is.

1526
01:26:45,640 --> 01:26:49,800
Speaker 13: So crazy to me, Like, I don't think he was

1527
01:26:49,920 --> 01:26:54,240
Speaker 13: her you know, her type. I guess, okay, okay, he

1528
01:26:54,400 --> 01:26:56,400
Speaker 13: went for like I think he had mommy issues. But

1529
01:26:56,600 --> 01:26:57,160
Speaker 13: we'll get to.

1530
01:26:57,120 --> 01:26:59,639
Speaker 3: That, don't they all, don't they all?

1531
01:26:59,760 --> 01:27:05,880
Speaker 13: Yeah, Yeah, it's always something, It's always yeah. So she said,

1532
01:27:06,120 --> 01:27:08,280
Speaker 13: you know, he was always really nice. There was zero

1533
01:27:08,320 --> 01:27:12,920
Speaker 13: red flags, zero suspicions. You know, he was always very nice.

1534
01:27:12,960 --> 01:27:15,920
Speaker 13: He was very patient. They never argued, he never raised

1535
01:27:15,920 --> 01:27:18,840
Speaker 13: his voice. He had two cats who we love, which

1536
01:27:18,880 --> 01:27:22,559
Speaker 13: is really kind of you know, oh my god. Yeah,

1537
01:27:22,680 --> 01:27:27,800
Speaker 13: not the usual profile. So actually the reason they broke

1538
01:27:27,880 --> 01:27:29,960
Speaker 13: up all fast forward to that, Like they had a

1539
01:27:30,000 --> 01:27:34,000
Speaker 13: great relationship, but they broke up because he typically drove

1540
01:27:34,040 --> 01:27:38,439
Speaker 13: a motorcycle or a a company's van because he installed

1541
01:27:38,439 --> 01:27:41,960
Speaker 13: sprinkler systems at the time. And one night he picks

1542
01:27:41,960 --> 01:27:43,639
Speaker 13: her up from work in this car she had never

1543
01:27:43,640 --> 01:27:47,120
Speaker 13: seen before, and she's like, oh, whose car is this

1544
01:27:47,240 --> 01:27:48,719
Speaker 13: and he said, oh, I borrowed it from a friend.

1545
01:27:48,720 --> 01:27:51,960
Speaker 13: I didn't want to take my bike because it's raining out.

1546
01:27:52,800 --> 01:27:56,240
Speaker 13: And she's like, well, okay, you know, sounds legit, so

1547
01:27:56,280 --> 01:28:00,439
Speaker 13: she didn't really question it. Fast forward to the next day,

1548
01:28:00,439 --> 01:28:03,679
Speaker 13: he's driving her back to work and there's a bunch

1549
01:28:03,680 --> 01:28:07,440
Speaker 13: of police that stopped them. You know, guns, they're surrounded.

1550
01:28:07,520 --> 01:28:12,640
Speaker 13: It turns out he stole the car. Yeah, so you know,

1551
01:28:12,840 --> 01:28:16,200
Speaker 13: and to her, this is like the thing that broke

1552
01:28:16,280 --> 01:28:16,640
Speaker 13: them up.

1553
01:28:16,720 --> 01:28:16,920
Speaker 3: Right.

1554
01:28:17,120 --> 01:28:20,160
Speaker 13: Imagine she really knew what was going on all the time.

1555
01:28:20,920 --> 01:28:28,960
Speaker 13: So like, lucky for her, I guess they for her. Yeah,

1556
01:28:29,080 --> 01:28:34,400
Speaker 13: it was she was terrified they brought like she was.

1557
01:28:34,800 --> 01:28:37,600
Speaker 13: She really had no idea. She really didn't expect it

1558
01:28:37,640 --> 01:28:40,200
Speaker 13: from him, right, So they bring her, They bring them

1559
01:28:40,240 --> 01:28:43,760
Speaker 13: to the jail to do questioning. He immediately said, like,

1560
01:28:43,800 --> 01:28:46,200
Speaker 13: she has nothing to do with this, this is something

1561
01:28:46,280 --> 01:28:50,640
Speaker 13: I did, Like, please let her go. They asked her

1562
01:28:50,680 --> 01:28:53,360
Speaker 13: a few more questions, but something weird that they did

1563
01:28:53,520 --> 01:28:57,559
Speaker 13: ask was do you know if he had if he's

1564
01:28:57,600 --> 01:29:03,559
Speaker 13: taken any pictures of you? And she's like, well, like well, yeah,

1565
01:29:03,960 --> 01:29:07,400
Speaker 13: She's like, well when we were on vacation and gaspye

1566
01:29:07,439 --> 01:29:10,280
Speaker 13: we took pictures. He's like, oh okay, because he had

1567
01:29:10,320 --> 01:29:13,280
Speaker 13: a lot of pictures in his possession, so apparently there

1568
01:29:13,280 --> 01:29:17,160
Speaker 13: were They didn't really go into detail, but they basically

1569
01:29:17,920 --> 01:29:19,679
Speaker 13: said that there were a lot of pictures a woman,

1570
01:29:19,760 --> 01:29:22,160
Speaker 13: including her, and she just wanted to make sure that

1571
01:29:22,200 --> 01:29:25,559
Speaker 13: he was aware that he had these photos because I

1572
01:29:25,560 --> 01:29:28,880
Speaker 13: guess they were kind of I don't know. I don't

1573
01:29:28,920 --> 01:29:30,840
Speaker 13: know if he was just taking people phos of the

1574
01:29:30,880 --> 01:29:34,200
Speaker 13: same day at the beach. I don't know how that happened.

1575
01:29:34,240 --> 01:29:39,280
Speaker 13: But that was the one weird thing. So basically that

1576
01:29:39,400 --> 01:29:42,160
Speaker 13: was the last communication they had. He asked her to

1577
01:29:42,240 --> 01:29:46,960
Speaker 13: please contact his aunt, oh my god, to take care

1578
01:29:47,000 --> 01:29:49,439
Speaker 13: of his cats that he loved, and that was it.

1579
01:29:49,520 --> 01:29:52,080
Speaker 13: She never heard from it again. And then fast forward

1580
01:29:52,080 --> 01:29:58,840
Speaker 13: twenty years, well nineteen years to be exact. She's watching

1581
01:29:58,880 --> 01:30:01,400
Speaker 13: the evening news and all of a sudden she sees

1582
01:30:01,400 --> 01:30:04,200
Speaker 13: his face plastered on CTV and she screams, oh my god,

1583
01:30:04,240 --> 01:30:08,360
Speaker 13: that's Billy.

1584
01:30:06,479 --> 01:30:09,559
Speaker 3: As she recognized him when he got arrested. Yes.

1585
01:30:10,320 --> 01:30:13,200
Speaker 13: Yeah, And then this was the end nineteen ninety nine,

1586
01:30:13,240 --> 01:30:15,759
Speaker 13: so I was six and I have like a memory

1587
01:30:15,800 --> 01:30:19,720
Speaker 13: of this, and she was like freaking out. She's like,

1588
01:30:19,800 --> 01:30:23,240
Speaker 13: I can't believe it. That's Billy's She later told us,

1589
01:30:23,320 --> 01:30:25,640
Speaker 13: you know, of all like her ex boyfriends, this is

1590
01:30:25,640 --> 01:30:28,160
Speaker 13: the person she would have suspected the least because he

1591
01:30:28,320 --> 01:30:31,320
Speaker 13: was so not the type. And so there had been

1592
01:30:31,320 --> 01:30:35,160
Speaker 13: a string of like sexual assaults and burglaries and murders

1593
01:30:35,200 --> 01:30:38,080
Speaker 13: in Montreal and the surrounding areas, and they had been

1594
01:30:38,080 --> 01:30:40,479
Speaker 13: looking for somebody and turns out it was him. They

1595
01:30:40,520 --> 01:30:48,040
Speaker 13: finally caught him. And yeah, so ever since then, I've been.

1596
01:30:46,200 --> 01:30:52,160
Speaker 2: That you have the best, scariest, most eerie answer to

1597
01:30:52,320 --> 01:30:56,200
Speaker 2: this ever heard this question, why are you into true crime?

1598
01:30:56,240 --> 01:30:59,800
Speaker 3: Saying goodness that you called by the way ladies.

1599
01:30:59,640 --> 01:31:01,439
Speaker 2: And we only have a quick moment, So Brittany, I

1600
01:31:01,439 --> 01:31:03,160
Speaker 2: don't mean to cut you off, but I feel like

1601
01:31:03,200 --> 01:31:06,519
Speaker 2: we need to continue this conversation with you because they

1602
01:31:06,520 --> 01:31:11,479
Speaker 2: should go into a Red Flags dating episode, right like

1603
01:31:11,560 --> 01:31:14,320
Speaker 2: we should just like talk about what people have been

1604
01:31:14,360 --> 01:31:18,160
Speaker 2: experiencing out in the real world in the wild, like

1605
01:31:18,240 --> 01:31:21,759
Speaker 2: your sweet mom. Hey listen, Brittany, thank you for sharing

1606
01:31:21,840 --> 01:31:24,240
Speaker 2: your story and we're going to be back tomorrow.

1607
01:31:23,880 --> 01:31:26,000
Speaker 5: Big day because Luigi's.

1608
01:31:25,520 --> 01:31:27,240
Speaker 3: Team wants them to.

1609
01:31:27,400 --> 01:31:31,439
Speaker 2: Drop the federal charges true crime tonight. Stay safe out there,

1610
01:31:31,479 --> 01:31:32,360
Speaker 2: good night, everybody.

1611
01:31:32,800 --> 01:31:32,960
Speaker 5: BA