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Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Business Week. I'm Carol Masser and I'm

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Quick Takes Tim Stanovk. We're here every day bringing

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Speaker 1: you the latest news from the world to business and finance,

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Speaker 1: plus technology, politics, economics, all purtnising the power of Business

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Speaker 1: Week reporters and editors, not to mention our journalists and

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Speaker 1: analysts in more than one twenty countries. You can download

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Business Week and iTunes, SoundCloud, or Bloomberg dot com.

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Speaker 1: You can also listen to our radio show at two

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Speaker 1: pm Eastern Time on Bloomberg Radio, or watch us on YouTube.

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Speaker 1: Search Bloomberg Global News. Virus headlines, Tim and I just

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Speaker 1: covered a little bit of them. One thing that stuck

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Speaker 1: out for me, Tim, medical experts who advise US regulators

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Speaker 1: on vaccines, they're really chafing at what they perceive as

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Speaker 1: political interference by the Biden administration in the review process

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Speaker 1: of booster shots. I have to say it's a little

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Speaker 1: bit confusing for me. It's confusing about booster shots and

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Speaker 1: also confusing. Okay, which are the vaccines or which is

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Speaker 1: the vaccine that has been fully approved versus one that

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Speaker 1: has emergency use authorization? What does that mean? For employers

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Speaker 1: who can mandate shots exactly. I think it's really confusing.

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Speaker 1: So let's get some clarity back with us as Dr

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Speaker 1: Peter alper And he is VP at the now publicly

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Speaker 1: traded Doximity you might recall it. I p o back

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Speaker 1: in late June, is a professional medical network for physicians.

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Speaker 1: He joins us on the phone from Austin, Texas, and

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Speaker 1: he's been a great voice for us to reach out

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Speaker 1: to during the pandemic. Dr Alpern, how are you. I'm

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Speaker 1: doing well, Thank you, thanks so much for having me on. Well,

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Speaker 1: it's good to have you back with Tim and myself.

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Speaker 1: Tell us a little bit about well, provide us some

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Speaker 1: clarities basically, because it does feel like we're getting a

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Speaker 1: lot of different information about UM, the vaccine and boosters.

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Speaker 1: How do you see it. What's the advice that you

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Speaker 1: and your colleagues are giving out to patients? Yeah, so UM.

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Speaker 1: I mean the core advice remains the same, which is

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Speaker 1: that we advise everybody you know, for whom the vaccine

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Speaker 1: has approved, which is basically everybody twelve and older to

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Speaker 1: go ahead and get their vaccines if they haven't done it. UM.

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Speaker 1: And we have seen an increases in the number of

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Speaker 1: vaccines over the past several weeks and people getting vaccinated

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Speaker 1: with respect to boosters UM, So at this current moment,

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Speaker 1: the boosters a third shot is to be clear, to

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Speaker 1: clarify what it is we mean by booster has been

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Speaker 1: approved for people who are have sort of certain, you know,

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Speaker 1: compromising conditions, and that can either be that their patients

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Speaker 1: who are living with cancer or that they're on medications

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Speaker 1: which can suppress their immune system. But other than that, uh,

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Speaker 1: it is currently not recommended that people get a third shot. UM.

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Speaker 1: There is talk about on September that people can start

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Speaker 1: to get their booster shots for people who got the

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Speaker 1: shot very early, which is mostly people who work in healthcare.

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Speaker 1: The clock. The clock is taking though to September twenty

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Speaker 1: and I'm wondering what kind of guidance you would like

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Speaker 1: to see from the FDA or from regulators about who

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Speaker 1: should get it, how long they should wait to get it.

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Speaker 1: If they got Maderna, did they get a booster from biiser?

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Speaker 1: Is that okay? If they got j and they got

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Speaker 1: two shots of a lot of information out there, what

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Speaker 1: is going on like the rest of us very much

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Speaker 1: await and see I I understand the frustration, but I

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Speaker 1: do know that the folks at the CDC and the

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Speaker 1: other federal regulatory agencies are working hard on this. I

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Speaker 1: do suspect that what will happen is that people will

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Speaker 1: be recommended to get a booster, likely of the same

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Speaker 1: shot that they had before. And I have started to

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Speaker 1: read things about suggestions that patients who received the j

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Speaker 1: J vaccine will receive another one as well. But you

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Speaker 1: raise a very good point. Um, you know there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of data out there too that people need to

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Speaker 1: sift through. One of the things that we've seen, Um,

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Speaker 1: certain hiptoximity is just the explosion and medical information, and

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Speaker 1: so providers are hungry for for clarity like like everybody else. Um.

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Speaker 1: But there is, in fairness a tremendous amount of data.

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Speaker 1: So again that it remains the same thing. Be safe, Um,

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Speaker 1: make sure that you're vaccinated the first time. But I

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Speaker 1: suspect that these recommendations will come out quite saying Hey

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Speaker 1: talk Ralfer, and I got to ask about flu shots

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Speaker 1: because here we are. I was at the pediatrician with

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Speaker 1: my son earlier this week. The pediatrician said, Hey, we

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Speaker 1: got flu shots in do you want to get one

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Speaker 1: for him and I said yes, and do you have

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Speaker 1: any for me? And he said we do, we have

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Speaker 1: extra h And I got my flu shot already. What

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Speaker 1: are you hearing right now about flu season? And what

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Speaker 1: would you say to people who are don't even have

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Speaker 1: that on their radar at this point because we've been

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Speaker 1: so focused on COVID and last year was so mild

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Speaker 1: when it came to flu season, I just put it

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Speaker 1: on my to do that. Thank you, Carol, Absolutely great question,

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Speaker 1: and you so you're absolutely right that last year's flu

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Speaker 1: season was mild, likely because people were really washing their

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Speaker 1: hands and people were distancing. So important point masks too,

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Speaker 1: maybe spread part of masks as well. Maybe yes, masks

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Speaker 1: as well. Absolutely, um So, a lot of the precautions

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Speaker 1: that we were taking and continue to take in a

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Speaker 1: lot of circumstances for COVID are very helpful to prevent

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Speaker 1: the flu. And as I was going to say, is

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Speaker 1: it flu is path by touch much more than certainly

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Speaker 1: than covid, which is large emission cannot be transmitted that way.

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Speaker 1: In terms of getting a flu vaccine, um, it's absolutely

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Speaker 1: a great idea. It's always a good idea to get

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Speaker 1: your flu vaccine. Every year. The flu is a significant

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Speaker 1: cause of morbidity and mortality, meaning that it puts people

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Speaker 1: in the hospital and can even lead to death and

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Speaker 1: those who are elderly or having certain compromising conditions. So

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Speaker 1: I'm glad that you got your child with flu shot,

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Speaker 1: and I'm glad that you've got it yourself. Hey, listen,

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Speaker 1: just got about a minute left here. You guys have

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Speaker 1: some new stuff that's going out. Tell us about your

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Speaker 1: residency navigator too, because you're a public company in our

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Speaker 1: audience is interested in public companies. Uh yeah, well, thank

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Speaker 1: you for that. Um so. Yeah. So one of the

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Speaker 1: things that we do with Toximity is we have a

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Speaker 1: variety of tools and features that help physicians at all

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Speaker 1: stages of their career. And one of those features is

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Speaker 1: the Residency Navigator, which is a tool that helps those

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Speaker 1: younger physicians, the ones graduating medical school and choosing their

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Speaker 1: training program, which is required of all doctors so that

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Speaker 1: they can get licensed. Uh. They it's a that we

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Speaker 1: provide that helps them choose the program that's the best

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Speaker 1: fit for them depending upon what their career goals are.

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Speaker 1: We update that with the latest data, and yes, that

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Speaker 1: just got released a few weeks ago. So we're excited

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Speaker 1: when we're seeing great wait and there's a couple's match

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Speaker 1: twenty seconds. Is this like Tinder the medical version? Just

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Speaker 1: quickly cool? That helps. There's a tool that helps those

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Speaker 1: physicians who have met their partner during residency or some

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Speaker 1: prior time, who are both physicians, to be able to

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Speaker 1: find a location that can support both of their career goals.

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Speaker 1: And so if one is a surgeon and one is

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Speaker 1: an internal medicine position, they can both use this tool

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Speaker 1: to find the best place to go. Makes perfect sense.

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Speaker 1: I have friends who you know, had to fly every

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Speaker 1: weekend to see one another when they were residents because

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Speaker 1: they are residents thousands of miles away. Is it like

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Speaker 1: swipe left first surgeon, swipe right for an intern. I

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Speaker 1: don't know. I'm not a doctor. Not on a platform.

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Speaker 1: Dr Peter Apron, always get to hear your voice, Vice

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Speaker 1: President Doximity on the phone from Austin. You're listening to

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser and Bloomberg Quick Takes

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Speaker 1: to m on Bloomberg Radio. All right, Hurricane I do

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Speaker 1: not thank you, the fifth largest hurricane in our history.

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Speaker 1: We heard Present Biden saying that just about an hour

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Speaker 1: or so ago, making its mark tim from New Orleans

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Speaker 1: and the Gulf Coast all the way up to the Northeast.

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Speaker 1: It's coming at the same time we're seeing extreme weather

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Speaker 1: play out, not just throughout the United States, but throughout

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Speaker 1: the world, with flooding in Europe and uh, extreme weather

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Speaker 1: in California in a drought that's just gripping the West.

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Speaker 1: All right, we want to talk about all of this

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Speaker 1: because climate change, we know, is also impacting the frequency

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Speaker 1: and ferocity of storms. Here with more on that is

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg News Sustainability editor Eric Roston joining us now on

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Speaker 1: the phone in New Jersey. Eric, first of all, I

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Speaker 1: hope you and your your family are safe. Hi. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: thank you very much. We're We looked out a lot

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Speaker 1: of people in northern New Jersey and in New York

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Speaker 1: and the region had real serious flooding last night, and um,

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Speaker 1: you know, our thoughts are with everybody who's suffering through this. Yes,

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Speaker 1: we as well. Um, you know the storms, the type

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Speaker 1: of storms where they're hitting, what they're doing. Tell us

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Speaker 1: how you know, you guys cover sustainability, you cover climate change.

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Speaker 1: How does climate change impact what we're living through? Right?

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Speaker 1: Now when it comes to storms and weather patterns, climate

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Speaker 1: change is exacerbating everything. It's making terrible things worse. Basically,

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Speaker 1: the we've had, you know, projections for many years that

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Speaker 1: are now really beginning to come true. Heat Waves are

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Speaker 1: hotter and longer and more frequent. Tropical cyclones like hurricanes

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Speaker 1: in this hemisphere are becoming more intense. There is there's

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Speaker 1: a very direct relationship between the temperature of the atmosphere

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Speaker 1: and the amount of water vapor it can hold. Every

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Speaker 1: degree the temperature rises, the air can hold about seven

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Speaker 1: more water vapor and it comes down when when conditions

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Speaker 1: are as they have been for Hurricane i'da through the

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Speaker 1: Gulf of Mexico up through the northeast as we as

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Speaker 1: we saw last night. So we've expected this. It is

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Speaker 1: as terrible or worse than we expected. Um and it

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Speaker 1: leaves us with this very strange um I think situation,

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Speaker 1: which is we're having these terrible weather events, and we

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Speaker 1: know that greenhouse gases are driving a lot of the uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, extra damages we're seeing. So that's that's where

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Speaker 1: things stand today. Eric. It's it's it's puzzling to me

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Speaker 1: at the same time because we're seeing these extreme weather events.

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Speaker 1: While we're also seeing companies come out at least during

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Speaker 1: the United States and certainly in the European Union with

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Speaker 1: really ambitious climate goals. But these goals are years out

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Speaker 1: we're talking, and I wonder how much worse things are

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Speaker 1: going to get before they start to get better. We

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Speaker 1: have yet to turn the hide. Carbon dioxide emissions in

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Speaker 1: the atmosphere, that's the most important greenhouse gas continue to rise.

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Speaker 1: Even though they took a big hip, a really historic

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Speaker 1: hit last year, down by like five or six percent. UH,

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Speaker 1: it's still negligible. UM. So all of these UH pledges

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Speaker 1: are super super important, and I think in most cases

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Speaker 1: there's not reason to doubt the genuineness of the goals

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Speaker 1: or the motivations to achieve them. UM. But you're right,

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Speaker 1: they have yet to become actualized. In most cases, there

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Speaker 1: is enormous progress in renutable energy as we see just

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Speaker 1: like year after year, the games are phenomenal, even though

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Speaker 1: they're still not fast enough. UM. But this is this

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Speaker 1: is an economy in transition that we that we have

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Speaker 1: now we a global economy, and transition just got thirty

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Speaker 1: seconds just quickly. Eric. I mean, we talked about inequities.

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Speaker 1: It does feel like those countries, those cities that are

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Speaker 1: wealthier are going to be able to figure out solutions

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Speaker 1: faster and better than others in terms of surviving climate

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Speaker 1: change just quickly. Is that fair? That is totally fair.

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Speaker 1: It was the subject of a feature we ran earlier

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Speaker 1: this week that I drive everyone's attention to uh fortunately

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Speaker 1: and to leave on a hopeful note of many many

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Speaker 1: life saving opportunities and keep waves and other events are

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Speaker 1: not income dependent. We can save lives without rebuilding cities

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Speaker 1: from scratch. Thank you so much for coming on. We

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Speaker 1: really wanted to check in with you today. Eric Roston,

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Speaker 1: Stay Safe, Sustainability editor at Bloomberg News, joining us on

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Speaker 1: the phone in New Jersey. Yeah. Important to check out

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Speaker 1: that future too, available at Bloomberg dot com. This is

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and Bloomberg Quick Takes,

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Speaker 1: tim's Enovic on Bloomberg Radio. Well this week it is

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Speaker 1: a special double issue of Bloomberg Business Week magazine. It's

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Speaker 1: the City's issue and the cover story the issue is

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Speaker 1: about Mark Lourie, who Tim amassed a fortune building e

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Speaker 1: commerce sites, several of them, and he's on a new

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Speaker 1: mission investing that money into building a privately run city.

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Speaker 1: He shared that vision with our own Joshua Boosting. He did,

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Speaker 1: and Joshua Brewsting joins us now he's technology editor at

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Business Week. He's joining us on the phone from

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Speaker 1: New York City. I think a lot of listeners and

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Speaker 1: readers of Bloomberg Business Magazine might remember Lorrie from the

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Speaker 1: cover that he was on a few years ago when

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Speaker 1: he launched jet dot com. That was the way that

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Speaker 1: the world found out about Jet dot com before Walmart

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Speaker 1: a couple of years later bought it for more than

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Speaker 1: three billion dollars. But Joshua, before we get into this,

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Speaker 1: just give us some background about who Mark Laurie is

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Speaker 1: and really what he's trying to build after building these

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Speaker 1: e commerce sites. Sure, yeah, thanks for having me. Um.

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Speaker 1: As you said, Mark Laurie has had a successful career

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Speaker 1: building e commerce websites. First, he built h the company

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Speaker 1: that ran diapers dot com, which he sold to Amazon,

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Speaker 1: worked for Amazon for a bit, left and built Jet

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Speaker 1: dot Com, which is basically an Amazon competitor, which was

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Speaker 1: bought by Walmart. He then ran Walmart's e commerce UM

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Speaker 1: division for about the last five years, but Almost immediately

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Speaker 1: upon getting to Walmart, he started talking to people about

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Speaker 1: this plan to build a city from scratch. Basically. UM

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Speaker 1: that his current plan is for it to have eventually

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Speaker 1: about five million people. That would be forty years from now,

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Speaker 1: and obviously a lot would have to go right to

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Speaker 1: get there. UM. And he's just starting to lay some

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Speaker 1: of the groundwork for what's a pretty audacious project. Is

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Speaker 1: it going to happen historically? Um? If you look at

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Speaker 1: what other people who have had come up with similar

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Speaker 1: plans like this, I think the answer would be no. Um.

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Speaker 1: There have been a really steady stream of these utopian

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Speaker 1: city building projects over the years. UM. I talked to

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Speaker 1: a professor at McGill University who studies them and says

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Speaker 1: that there's about a hundred and fifty such projects underway

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Speaker 1: right now. UM. But she said she couldn't really point

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Speaker 1: to a single one that had fully succeeded in its goals.

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Speaker 1: Some of them do have some people, but they never

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Speaker 1: quite get to the heights that they're aiming for. Joshua.

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Speaker 1: A few months ago, you got some time to to

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Speaker 1: really sit down with with Mark Laurie and and really

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Speaker 1: get his vision, which you lay out so clearly in

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Speaker 1: the cover story of this edition in Bloomberg Business Week.

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Speaker 1: What is it that motivates Mark Laurie to do this,

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Speaker 1: What is he concerned about, what is his thinking around this,

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Speaker 1: the philosophy around this. MH Yeah, interestingly, UM, I sort

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Speaker 1: of figured that, you know, a guy coming from the

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Speaker 1: tech industry wants to start own city that mostly what

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Speaker 1: he'd want to talk about are a ton of this vehicles,

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Speaker 1: drone delivery thing like things like that. I mean sort

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Speaker 1: of like touch think if I think I want an

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Speaker 1: ice cream cone in my hand and it just appears

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Speaker 1: like that exactly, And he did talk about that a

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Speaker 1: little bit. But like the thing that he's really interesting

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Speaker 1: is this model of landownership UM, which was first floated

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Speaker 1: by an economist named Henry George in the nine which

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Speaker 1: is basically the idea that you could um hold the

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Speaker 1: all of the all of the land in a city

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Speaker 1: in a trust and instead of allowing people to own

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Speaker 1: their own land, they everyone would be leasing the lands

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Speaker 1: from this central trust and the income from that from

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Speaker 1: that from those leases could be poured back into social services.

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Speaker 1: And now Laurie thinks that this is a way to

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Speaker 1: deal with inequality, which he professes to be his main, uh,

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Speaker 1: his main incentive in trying to pursue this project. Um,

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Speaker 1: it was a little bit jarring to to hear this

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Speaker 1: from a guy as he said in his forty four

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Speaker 1: million dollar Penhals apartment and explained it to me. Um,

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Speaker 1: you know, but that is really what he seemed lasor

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Speaker 1: focused on. Sounds like a really nice apartment. By the way,

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Speaker 1: what I will say is, and we're getting ready to

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Speaker 1: talk with David Rubinstein, who has a new book alt

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Speaker 1: called The American Experiment, and it's you know, conversations he's

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Speaker 1: had as America has continued to evolve and innovate and

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Speaker 1: change on some really important issues. And I do think

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Speaker 1: we are at this critical juncture when we look at

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Speaker 1: some of our cities that are struggling and have struggled

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Speaker 1: so much in the last year and a half, and

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Speaker 1: you do wonder what happens going forward. Will the infrastructure

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Speaker 1: ultimately come from the federal government and maybe change some

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Speaker 1: of those cities that have been struggling. You know, do

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Speaker 1: we have an opportunity because we could work from home,

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Speaker 1: we don't have to work in major cities to reinvent

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Speaker 1: the cities and towns that we have out there. So,

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Speaker 1: you know, as crazy as it might be, Josh right,

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Speaker 1: like you do, wonder does Mark Lori maybe have something

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Speaker 1: that maybe there are ways we can do things better? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think that there. Um this, there's a couple of

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Speaker 1: themes that come up in a number of these sort

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Speaker 1: of technology driven utopian city building ideas, which I think

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Speaker 1: are rather valid critiques of the way that cities work. Now. UM,

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Speaker 1: I think Lori is correctly identified the fact that inequality

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Speaker 1: is an enormous problem UM and is causing really a

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Speaker 1: lot of strain on on the capitalist system in the

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Speaker 1: United States. UM. Also, if you have something like autonomous vehicles,

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Speaker 1: you want to cut down on car use. Generally, these

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Speaker 1: are big transformations of a city, and it's very hard

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Speaker 1: to get things done in cities there. They tend to

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Speaker 1: really grind down due to inertia politics. UM, there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of there's a lot of reasons why things can't happen,

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Speaker 1: um and uh and so yeah, I think that those

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Speaker 1: those are good diagnosis of the problem. Whether you'd be

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Speaker 1: able to do something like that by starting a new um,

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure that's any easier, um, But you know,

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Speaker 1: I mean it's certain tempting to give it a try.

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Speaker 1: Where does this fall on his his list of priorities?

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Speaker 1: And and and also when when he thinks about what

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Speaker 1: he wants to be known for. I mean, this is

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Speaker 1: a guy who's bought a steak in a pro basketball team,

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Speaker 1: as you're right, he's learning the basics of his new

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Speaker 1: Steinway Grand piano. He's got this team that's working on

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Speaker 1: this new reality show. He's invested in EV talls. Um,

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Speaker 1: where does this fall on his list of priorities right now?

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Speaker 1: I think, well, I think the EV talls in the

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Speaker 1: city kind of work. Two v talls are electronic vertical

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Speaker 1: takeoff and landing vehicles basically flying cars. Um, I think

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Speaker 1: those might fit into the city. I think it's right

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Speaker 1: to wonder, with all these other things going on, do

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Speaker 1: you have this like sort of crazy project out there

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Speaker 1: if you're devoting what your time to it like something

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Speaker 1: that's basically impossible anyway, Like can you do it of

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Speaker 1: your time? That seems like a valid critique. His His

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Speaker 1: response to critique, which obviously I raised with him, is

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Speaker 1: that well, starting now, there's not much to do with

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Speaker 1: the city project, but over time it will become everything

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Speaker 1: he does, and he'll sort of, you know, move towards

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Speaker 1: devoting all of his time um to it. Um. You know,

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Speaker 1: I think it would have to get to a state

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Speaker 1: uh much different than it is now to justify that.

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Speaker 1: But that's just twin. Well, there's so much detail in

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Speaker 1: your story and it's a great read. It is the

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Speaker 1: cover story of the double issue of Bloomberg Business Week

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Speaker 1: magazine on newsstands, on the Bloomberg and at business week

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Speaker 1: dot com. Joshua Boosting, thank you so much, Technology editor

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Speaker 1: at Bloomberg Business Week. As we said his cover story

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Speaker 1: on Mark Laurie trying to create utopia, Carol, I've interviewed

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Speaker 1: Mark Laurie a few times before and during jet it's

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Speaker 1: just like a normal guys almost good. Yeah, it's it's

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Speaker 1: so interesting to hear about this grand vision. Yeah, we'll

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Speaker 1: speaking of grand visions David Rubinstein and his latest book.

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Speaker 1: We'll get to that in just a moment. You're listening

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Speaker 1: to Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser and Bloomberg Quick

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Speaker 1: Takes Tim Stinovic on Bloomberg Radio. All right, so grab

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Speaker 1: your drink of choice, Uh, settle into a comfy chair.

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Speaker 1: If you're driving, pull over because we've got a great guest.

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Speaker 1: Our next guest talks with all kinds of leaders from

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Speaker 1: all walks of our lives, the household names, the exacts,

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Speaker 1: the innovators, the warriors, the up starts, the artist, and

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Speaker 1: from those conversations, he's written a trilogy of books, How

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Speaker 1: to Lead on Leadership. The second, The American Story, was

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Speaker 1: all about the American history, UH, and the book's title,

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Speaker 1: The American Experiment, Dialogues and a Dream is his third

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Speaker 1: book in this series. So it's great to have joining us. UH.

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Speaker 1: David Rubinstein. He's host of Bloomberg Wealth on Bloomberg TV

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Speaker 1: and Bloomberg Radio, and of course you know him as

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Speaker 1: co founder and co chair of the private equity from

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Speaker 1: the Carlisle Group. He joins us in our interactive broker studio.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for joining us, My pleasure to be here.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for having me. It's really wonderful and I

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Speaker 1: feel like you are someone who talks with so many

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Speaker 1: different people, different points of view. UM, we were wondering

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Speaker 1: about the last couple of years, with everything going on,

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Speaker 1: how that kind of has shaped who you want to

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Speaker 1: talk to and how you were thinking about this book.

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Speaker 1: The American experiment. Well, generally, I'd like to talk to

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Speaker 1: people who are willing to say something, as you know

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Speaker 1: from being an interviewer. Uh, if you watch the Sunday

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Speaker 1: talk shows, sometimes you say, why do these people go

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Speaker 1: on these shows? Because they don't want to you want

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Speaker 1: to say anything. What you want is somebody who's willing

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Speaker 1: to say something and say something they haven't said before.

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Speaker 1: That's the best interview, right, And so I'm always looking

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Speaker 1: for somebody who is willing to be engaging and doesn't

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Speaker 1: want to just spar with the interviewer and not say anything.

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Speaker 1: So you know that's that's a challenge, but that's what

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to do. And you always want somebody that

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Speaker 1: people will listen to and want to hear. So if

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Speaker 1: I got an engaging guest but nobody's ever heard of

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Speaker 1: that person, it may not be as effective. If you

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Speaker 1: can get Jeff Bezos, you know, you know that's people

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Speaker 1: want to hear from him, so truely, so you want

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Speaker 1: somebody has a name and it was willing to engage.

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Speaker 1: And some people are great and some people are not

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Speaker 1: as great, and you know you've just figured out during

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Speaker 1: the interview. But we think about what's happened with the pandemic,

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Speaker 1: the capital riots, um, the inequities, George Floyd. We could

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Speaker 1: go on and on. There's it feels like a decade

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Speaker 1: or two decades of history have happened in the last

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Speaker 1: year and a half. How is that, David shaped kind

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Speaker 1: of your thinking and putting this book together? And again,

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Speaker 1: the voices you wanted to get to, each one has

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Speaker 1: a different thing. The January six event um, I do

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Speaker 1: talk about it extensively in the book, and I basically

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Speaker 1: say it was a severe stress test for America and

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Speaker 1: America one and I dedicate the book to the public

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Speaker 1: servants who protect our democracy because remember, we had sixty

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Speaker 1: five lawsuits that were filed to overturn the January to

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Speaker 1: overturn the election, and none of them actually prevailed, none

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Speaker 1: of them got very far. All the judges basically complied

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Speaker 1: with what is the rule of law, and they basically

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Speaker 1: didn't act political. So I think we learned a lot

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Speaker 1: about the importance of the rule of law in this country.

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Speaker 1: We also learned a lot in terms of the and

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Speaker 1: of health care in this country. How it's so unfair

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Speaker 1: that people are her minority status or or are poor.

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Speaker 1: Really we're suffering disproportionately because of COVID because they don't

430
00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:13,520
Speaker 1: have good health care to begin with, and they don't

431
00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:16,000
Speaker 1: have access to the best health care. And it's a

432
00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:18,719
Speaker 1: sad situation. But it also made me think about this,

433
00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:22,640
Speaker 1: my mortality. I'm seventy two years old, and when you're

434
00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:24,840
Speaker 1: seventy two, you had a chance of you got this

435
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:27,360
Speaker 1: disease that you could maybe not survive. And we now

436
00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:30,439
Speaker 1: know that six the people when on ventilators didn't actually

437
00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:32,720
Speaker 1: come back out of the ventilators. We were putting people

438
00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:35,639
Speaker 1: ventilators thinking was helping wasn't. So we learned a lot

439
00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:37,639
Speaker 1: about how to treat people. But suppose I had gotten

440
00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:39,760
Speaker 1: this and I went on a ventilator, I probably wouldn't

441
00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:41,840
Speaker 1: be here now. So I learned a lot about my

442
00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:44,119
Speaker 1: mortality and thinking about it. And the result is I'm

443
00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:47,359
Speaker 1: rushing to get more things done because I now realize, hey,

444
00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:50,639
Speaker 1: life is very sued and something bad could happen very quickly.

445
00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:53,359
Speaker 1: And so that that's been something that I've been thinking

446
00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:55,800
Speaker 1: a lot about. It's like the Hamilton's right, I'm running

447
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:58,240
Speaker 1: out of time right concept. As you point out in

448
00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:01,320
Speaker 1: the book, the American experiment has been relatively short at

449
00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:03,680
Speaker 1: this point, and I'm wondering if you could contextualize the

450
00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:06,040
Speaker 1: way that you think about what happened over the last year,

451
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:08,600
Speaker 1: year and a half as to what extent it really

452
00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:11,000
Speaker 1: stress tested us, because you do you do make note

453
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:14,840
Speaker 1: of the judiciary essentially saving the United States, not the lawmakers,

454
00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:17,040
Speaker 1: because you do call out in the book the lawmakers,

455
00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:20,080
Speaker 1: the senators, and the members of Congress who voted to

456
00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:24,280
Speaker 1: overturn the election. They are still in power right now. Yes,

457
00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:26,760
Speaker 1: And I know many of them, and privately they will

458
00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:28,439
Speaker 1: say to you, well, I had to do that, or

459
00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:31,040
Speaker 1: I knew it wasn't going to really prevail. Sure, many

460
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:32,680
Speaker 1: of these people were you know, I live in Washington,

461
00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:35,280
Speaker 1: I host I host a series uh in front of

462
00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:38,280
Speaker 1: Members of Congress once a month. With COVID ending soon

463
00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:40,640
Speaker 1: hopefully I'll be resuming that, and I know a lot

464
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:42,879
Speaker 1: of members and so forth, and you know, privately what

465
00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:44,920
Speaker 1: they say is, um, well I had to do this

466
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:47,520
Speaker 1: and they didn't really believe in it, but you know,

467
00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:49,600
Speaker 1: and so forth. Some will say that I'm not going

468
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:52,760
Speaker 1: to go and say who said that, but clearly it's

469
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:55,320
Speaker 1: a very political situation. It's just the saddest Part of

470
00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:58,679
Speaker 1: the whole situation we now face is that we've politicized

471
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:02,560
Speaker 1: the government so much so that the country's really unable

472
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:05,120
Speaker 1: to move forward very much. We have people who don't

473
00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:07,360
Speaker 1: want to wear masks, who think that it's a good

474
00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:10,280
Speaker 1: thing to force people not to wear masks. In effect,

475
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:12,840
Speaker 1: we we we you know, a sad situation in many

476
00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:15,440
Speaker 1: ways when you think about it, that school children whose

477
00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:17,719
Speaker 1: teachers want them to have masks are being told they

478
00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 1: aren't supposed to have that mask. Bad situation, and people

479
00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:24,720
Speaker 1: are dying because of this. When did debate become like

480
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:27,200
Speaker 1: a bad thing? I thought that was what kind of

481
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:29,600
Speaker 1: the routes of democracy? We're all about, this whole idea

482
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:32,359
Speaker 1: of having different perspectives and hopefully talking it through and

483
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:35,160
Speaker 1: getting to a better place. When I worked in Congress

484
00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:37,960
Speaker 1: and nineteen seventies and in the White House, uh, there

485
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:40,320
Speaker 1: was obviously political disputes all the time, and obviously this

486
00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:43,960
Speaker 1: was after Watergate, but people thought eventually, you've got to

487
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:47,080
Speaker 1: get something done, and so you had bipartisan legislation. Now,

488
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:49,600
Speaker 1: if to be considered a great legislator used to be

489
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:51,959
Speaker 1: you were good at bipartisan legislation. Get people on both

490
00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:55,280
Speaker 1: sides to work together now to be a great legislator. Um,

491
00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:57,760
Speaker 1: you're probably somebody that is good in only getting your

492
00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:00,520
Speaker 1: Democrats or your Republicans to support you. And members of

493
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:03,560
Speaker 1: Congress now spend so much time raising money because they

494
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:06,400
Speaker 1: want to raise money for their campaigns or to want

495
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:09,399
Speaker 1: anybody from challenging them, and they have to spend their

496
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:11,200
Speaker 1: time in the case of members of the House, to

497
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:13,840
Speaker 1: raising money. And the money and the Internet and social

498
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:16,480
Speaker 1: media has just divided the country in so many ways

499
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:19,159
Speaker 1: that I find it interesting when I host these dinners,

500
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:21,000
Speaker 1: so many people say this is the most interesting thing

501
00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:23,280
Speaker 1: that members feel they're doing. In Washington. They can have

502
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:25,560
Speaker 1: a dinner when nobody sees their meeting with somebody from

503
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:27,439
Speaker 1: the opposite party cause there's no press there, and they

504
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:29,119
Speaker 1: can talk to people from the opposite house, which they

505
00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:32,000
Speaker 1: really do because they rarely have conference committees anymore. It's uh,

506
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 1: you know, look, I also recognize this. Every generation ten

507
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:39,440
Speaker 1: thousand years back and so forth has always said, well,

508
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:41,800
Speaker 1: in my time it was better, and now it's not

509
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:44,880
Speaker 1: as good now. George Washington's father allegedly told him, well,

510
00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:47,359
Speaker 1: your dinner generation are not gonna achieve anything because you

511
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:50,199
Speaker 1: guys are not hard working or whatever. Well, the truth is,

512
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:53,760
Speaker 1: every general, every generation tells the younger people, you're not

513
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:55,800
Speaker 1: gonna be tough enough, You're not gonna be surviving enough.

514
00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 1: An ultimately civilization goes forward. So sure, they're they're challenges. Now.

515
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:02,440
Speaker 1: I'm not happy with many things that have happened. One

516
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:04,920
Speaker 1: thing that did happen, though, uh, during all this period

517
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:07,800
Speaker 1: of time, it is the is the George Floyd murder.

518
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:10,359
Speaker 1: In that case, the thing that struck me was this,

519
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 1: we've been through. I lived for the Civil Rights Revolution,

520
00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:15,640
Speaker 1: We've lived for the Voting Rights Act, the Civil Rights Act,

521
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:18,360
Speaker 1: and so many things that have been done, infirmative action,

522
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:22,399
Speaker 1: other things. But this one murder crystallized for people in

523
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:24,840
Speaker 1: this country the fact that we are still discriminating in

524
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:26,840
Speaker 1: so many ways. Just think about it. All the people

525
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:28,840
Speaker 1: that have been lynched over the years didn't seem to

526
00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:31,440
Speaker 1: have the same resonance as this one murder. Maybe because

527
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:33,880
Speaker 1: it was on TV, maybe everybody saw it, Maybe because

528
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:36,080
Speaker 1: people saw it was so ridiculous the way it was handled.

529
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:39,399
Speaker 1: But we've made some progress obviously on racial relations. And

530
00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:41,240
Speaker 1: I'd say in the book that while we've made a

531
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:44,040
Speaker 1: lot of progress, on racial relations and and and gender

532
00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:46,199
Speaker 1: equality and other things. We still have a long way

533
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:48,520
Speaker 1: to go. The rhetoric that is in the Declaration of

534
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:51,199
Speaker 1: Independence and the rhetoric in the Constitution is wonderful. What

535
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:53,439
Speaker 1: we've been spending two thirty years trying to live up

536
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:55,800
Speaker 1: to that rhetoric, and to some extent we've made progress,

537
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:57,600
Speaker 1: and some extent we haven't. And what I say in

538
00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 1: the book is that we have these genes, these gene

539
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:01,800
Speaker 1: is are part of us, the belief and the rule

540
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:04,080
Speaker 1: of law, the belief in equality, belief in the power

541
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:06,879
Speaker 1: of voting. And we've been trying to make sure that

542
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:09,960
Speaker 1: people um kind of honor these things that are part

543
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:12,040
Speaker 1: of our genes. And sometimes we do and sometimes we don't.

544
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:14,520
Speaker 1: The rule of law is a gene that's so strong

545
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 1: that it prevailed in the January sixth situation and and

546
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:19,919
Speaker 1: the and the post election fight. And I think that

547
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:22,240
Speaker 1: was good in many other countries. And you've had a

548
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:24,399
Speaker 1: leader of do what was done here. I think you

549
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 1: could have had a military takeover. Yeah, it could have

550
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:31,120
Speaker 1: been much closer. I I wonder, David, about this sense

551
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:33,960
Speaker 1: of optimism that you have potentially after writing a book

552
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 1: like this. I do think there is this collective despair

553
00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:38,760
Speaker 1: over the last eighteen nineteen months as this pandemic is

554
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 1: played out and we try to get to the other

555
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:42,480
Speaker 1: side of it. And here we are sandwiched between extreme

556
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:45,600
Speaker 1: weather events. You know that they're affecting the entire country,

557
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:50,240
Speaker 1: whether it's drought or hurricane or fires. Uh, trying to

558
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:53,160
Speaker 1: get our kids back to school. After writing this book

559
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:55,840
Speaker 1: and speaking to these people and looking so closely at

560
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:59,000
Speaker 1: the history of the United States, are you optimistic? I

561
00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:02,920
Speaker 1: think most people who are asked that question will say yes,

562
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:05,400
Speaker 1: because nobody wants to say no, I'm pessimistic. It sounds

563
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 1: bad to say I'm pessimistic, and I'd be lying. If

564
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:09,320
Speaker 1: I said I was pessimistic. It might make news to

565
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 1: say I'm pessimistic. I am optimistic about many things. The

566
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:16,240
Speaker 1: young people are so creative. We are solving some problems

567
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:19,200
Speaker 1: like global climate change. We're working on some things. Racial

568
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 1: relations are getting better than not perfect. But uh, if

569
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 1: you weren't optimistic, you'd be hard to get through life.

570
00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 1: If every day you were so depressed you couldn't get

571
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 1: through life, you know, what would you do? So I'm

572
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:31,000
Speaker 1: optimistic and I've had been fortunate in my life to

573
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:33,480
Speaker 1: be be able to be optimistic because of good things

574
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:35,960
Speaker 1: that happened to me. But generally I'm reasonably optimistic. I've

575
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:38,400
Speaker 1: just been worried about some things that we could solve

576
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:40,040
Speaker 1: that we don't seem to be solving as quickly as

577
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:41,640
Speaker 1: I wish we would. Let's talk about some of the

578
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 1: conversations ken Burns, Medline, Albright, Um, juliep Or who I

579
00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:48,880
Speaker 1: don't know is necessarily a household name, Um Alter, Isaacson,

580
00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 1: David McCullough, some of the things Rita Morano, Um, some

581
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:55,200
Speaker 1: of the conversations that stood out. And obviously they talked

582
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 1: about very different topics, the different topics of thread. But

583
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 1: I guess well, ken Burns talked about Vietnam. And it

584
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:04,400
Speaker 1: turns out in Vietnam, the political leaders knew all along.

585
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:06,400
Speaker 1: They knew all along that we had no chance of

586
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:09,720
Speaker 1: winning that war military. It was really a political um exercise,

587
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:11,959
Speaker 1: which was disappointed because we lost fifty eight thousand men

588
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 1: and the Vietnamese lost millions of people. UM. David McCulloch

589
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 1: did a wonderful job of explaining how nobody took the

590
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:19,400
Speaker 1: right brother seriously in this country. They had to go

591
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 1: to France to kind of prove um that they could

592
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:25,800
Speaker 1: they could they could fly. Another reason why we love France, right, UM.

593
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:28,520
Speaker 1: You know, so Rita Moreno is an incredible story and

594
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:31,760
Speaker 1: a woman from Puerto Rico who was not taken that

595
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:34,400
Speaker 1: seriously as an actress because she was from Puerto Rico,

596
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:37,800
Speaker 1: she was given kind of Latino Latino jobs, but she

597
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 1: turned out to be an Academy Award winner and she

598
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:43,120
Speaker 1: had an interesting life. She lived with um, a very

599
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 1: famous person for quite some time, Marlon Brando and I

600
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:48,040
Speaker 1: think eight years or so, and then try to commit

601
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:52,040
Speaker 1: suicide because he was unfaithful. And then she recovered from

602
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:54,920
Speaker 1: that and obviously went on to now win an Emmy,

603
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 1: a Grammy, uh, every other word Tony that you can win.

604
00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 1: So she's um quite impressive her and now we're still

605
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:04,200
Speaker 1: performing at A eighty nine. She was at our Boston

606
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:06,800
Speaker 1: Pops event and she's a spitfire. Got to meet her

607
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:10,160
Speaker 1: and she's unbelievable in terms of her energy. You also

608
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,120
Speaker 1: talked with m Walter Isaacson, and I think innovation is

609
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:15,720
Speaker 1: something we spend a lot of time here, uh talking

610
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:19,720
Speaker 1: about around the table. And you know that governments, the

611
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:22,560
Speaker 1: complicated relationship really between governments and innovation. We're seeing it

612
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:26,560
Speaker 1: once again. What did you glean from that conversation? Walter

613
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:29,680
Speaker 1: points out in his book really focus on the Innovators,

614
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 1: a book right before the Codebreakers. Codebreakers, a new book

615
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:36,560
Speaker 1: about a woman that won the Nobel Prize for effect

616
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:39,840
Speaker 1: discovering crisper Um. And and that's a great book as well.

617
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:42,320
Speaker 1: But but the Innovators is about all the people that

618
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:46,720
Speaker 1: have changed our lives. Who invented the micro processor, that transistor,

619
00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:50,240
Speaker 1: the smartphone, the internet, all the things. How could we

620
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:52,560
Speaker 1: live today without the internet? How could we live today

621
00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:55,840
Speaker 1: without smartphones? All these things? But now these all came

622
00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:58,760
Speaker 1: about because of smart people doing things that people said

623
00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:00,840
Speaker 1: couldn't be done. And Typic as part of the teams.

624
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:04,120
Speaker 1: There are very few geniuses. They're discovering things by themselves,

625
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 1: he points out. Usually it's a person working with somebody else,

626
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:09,560
Speaker 1: and usually they're building on some something that somebody else

627
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:12,040
Speaker 1: actually did before them. But the most important thing is

628
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:14,560
Speaker 1: our country has been a country where we've been strong

629
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:17,680
Speaker 1: because of innovation. We are the country that innovates. We're

630
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:20,600
Speaker 1: reinventing ourselves all the time. Why aren't people in Europe

631
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:23,240
Speaker 1: inventing great companies. Like with companies we have, you don't

632
00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:25,120
Speaker 1: see as much in Europe or in other parts of

633
00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:27,600
Speaker 1: the world as we have been seeing here right now.

634
00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:30,360
Speaker 1: The technology that's dominating the world, certainly outside of China

635
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:35,680
Speaker 1: is American technology Microsoft, Amazon, Apple, Facebook, Um, all these

636
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:38,640
Speaker 1: companies are American companies. Why don't we aren't we dominated

637
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:41,680
Speaker 1: by European technology companies or Middle East technology companies? Because

638
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:45,000
Speaker 1: Americans have innovative style and we really incent people to

639
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 1: do things innovative here. Wait, I gotta follow, So what

640
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:49,600
Speaker 1: do you think about what's going on in China right

641
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:52,160
Speaker 1: now in terms of really clamping down It feels like

642
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:54,920
Speaker 1: any innovators well in China, I think what's going on

643
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 1: is the Chinese government is trying to make it clear

644
00:32:57,120 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 1: to everybody that we, the government, are the most important

645
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:02,800
Speaker 1: thing and not the innovators. And so I think there's

646
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:06,680
Speaker 1: a concern that sometimes you get entrepreneurs whore worth a

647
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:09,120
Speaker 1: lot of money there, their cult figures themselves jack Ma

648
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:11,960
Speaker 1: on the equivalent, and they kind of rival the government leaders,

649
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:14,520
Speaker 1: and the government doesn't think that's appropriate. So the government

650
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:17,520
Speaker 1: is doing some things to constrain this. We'll see whether

651
00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:20,200
Speaker 1: the impact is to have people not be quite as innovative,

652
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:22,360
Speaker 1: or whether people will try to take more money offshore,

653
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:24,760
Speaker 1: or or or entrepreneurs will come to this country and

654
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 1: not go back to China. You don't know yet. Will

655
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:28,560
Speaker 1: it prevent those China? And we're talking, of course, with

656
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 1: David Rubinstein, his new book is The American Experiment, also

657
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:33,960
Speaker 1: host of Bloomberg Wealth here at Bloomberg Radio and TV

658
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:37,040
Speaker 1: and co chair co founder of the Carlisle Group. But

659
00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:39,360
Speaker 1: it's interesting, David, do you think it will prevent China

660
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:43,000
Speaker 1: from being um kind of a global presence when it

661
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:46,240
Speaker 1: comes to innovative technologies, which is what President Gas said

662
00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:49,080
Speaker 1: he wants to be. It may have some impact, but

663
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:51,560
Speaker 1: right now, for example, what is up in the air

664
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:54,800
Speaker 1: is who is going to dominate technology and the around

665
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 1: the world of the next ten years. Is it going

666
00:33:57,240 --> 00:33:59,480
Speaker 1: to be the American technology companies or is it going

667
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:02,920
Speaker 1: to be Chinese trying right now, the Chinese technology companies

668
00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 1: have largely been successful in China. Google and Facebook really

669
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 1: don't quite operate in China. They have their own equivalent there.

670
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:13,000
Speaker 1: But have China been able to take Alie pay Uh

671
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:17,160
Speaker 1: and financial um or Ali Baba outside of China that much,

672
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:19,600
Speaker 1: not so much, or the same with Bai Do. Now

673
00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:22,040
Speaker 1: the only one that's really become a major force outside

674
00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:25,080
Speaker 1: of China is Byte Dance, which has TikTok, but it

675
00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:28,239
Speaker 1: doesn't operate all in China. It really operates outside. But

676
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:30,960
Speaker 1: over the next ten twenty years, twenty or thirty years

677
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:33,120
Speaker 1: or so, there will be an effort by the Chinese

678
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:36,040
Speaker 1: to say, let's take our technology companies and use them

679
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:38,839
Speaker 1: in Europe, Latin America, the Middle East, and who will

680
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:41,120
Speaker 1: dominate what we have two internets or we just have

681
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:44,160
Speaker 1: one internet and and it's not clear to the extent

682
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:46,840
Speaker 1: that we weaken our technology companies in this country. It

683
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:48,680
Speaker 1: may be that we won't be dominant around the world

684
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:50,560
Speaker 1: as much as we have been. But you think about it.

685
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:52,520
Speaker 1: You go anywhere in the world now you can turn,

686
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:55,400
Speaker 1: you can use Google, you can use Facebook. You can't

687
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:58,080
Speaker 1: go use Bai Do or or Alie pay anywhere in

688
00:34:58,120 --> 00:34:59,719
Speaker 1: the world. That may change unless you're in a part

689
00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:03,279
Speaker 1: of nowhere, one of the blocked uh David, given what's

690
00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:05,160
Speaker 1: happened in China over the last few months, would you

691
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:08,200
Speaker 1: be hesitant to deploy capital there to to invest there

692
00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:10,480
Speaker 1: at least for the near future. I am an investor

693
00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:12,440
Speaker 1: in China, have been a long term investor there my

694
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:16,880
Speaker 1: firm UM as an investor there. I personally invested there UM,

695
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:19,359
Speaker 1: but without thinking forward over the next few years. Given

696
00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:22,000
Speaker 1: what's happened over the last few months, there clearly are

697
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:24,960
Speaker 1: going to be some constraints on growth and valuation. So,

698
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:27,680
Speaker 1: for example, UM many of the companies that have had

699
00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:31,880
Speaker 1: some constraints the financial transaction is one and where the

700
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:34,439
Speaker 1: valuations come down because they're not going to go public

701
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:36,560
Speaker 1: quite as quickly as they were going to. I still

702
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:38,799
Speaker 1: think though, you've got a population of one point three

703
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:42,239
Speaker 1: billion people and a gigantic market, the biggest market in

704
00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:45,560
Speaker 1: the world, and the country is becoming increasingly wealthy, and

705
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:48,839
Speaker 1: therefore people are recently spending money. We operate a number

706
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 1: of companies there. We operate with our Chinese partners and

707
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:54,200
Speaker 1: McDonald's in in uh in China, and clearly that's a

708
00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:56,480
Speaker 1: growing business doing well. So I wouldn't be hesitant to

709
00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:59,439
Speaker 1: invest in China. I just be hesitant to do things

710
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:01,160
Speaker 1: that the government isn't gonna really like. You've got to

711
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:02,719
Speaker 1: be very careful and make sure you know what the

712
00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:05,480
Speaker 1: government will tolerate and not the book At the very

713
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 1: beginning you include the preamble to the Constitution. If you

714
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:11,600
Speaker 1: could sit down with a forefather today, who would it

715
00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 1: be and what would you want to know? Well? I

716
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:16,360
Speaker 1: waits that one second. I would just say that, interestingly,

717
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:21,560
Speaker 1: we had white Christian property owners men who are founding fathers, right,

718
00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:24,839
Speaker 1: if we had a new constitutional declaration independence, who would

719
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:27,520
Speaker 1: those people be? It wouldn't be all white men right

720
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:31,320
Speaker 1: or property. We'd have presumably women, We'd have minorities. Would

721
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:33,440
Speaker 1: we get a different constitution? Will we get a different

722
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:36,520
Speaker 1: declaration independence? Probably would Um. If I can have dinner

723
00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:39,120
Speaker 1: with any one of those founding fathers, I guess it

724
00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:42,120
Speaker 1: would be Thomas Jefferson, just because his rhetoric is writing

725
00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:44,120
Speaker 1: style is so wonderful, And I'd ask him how come

726
00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:46,640
Speaker 1: you never made a speech as presidently made one public speech.

727
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:49,359
Speaker 1: If you asked, uh Water Risings, he would say he'd

728
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:51,120
Speaker 1: like to have all the people he's written about, he'd

729
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:52,520
Speaker 1: like to have dinner. I think he would say with

730
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:55,800
Speaker 1: Benjamin Franklin, because he's so creative and so brilliant, so

731
00:36:55,800 --> 00:37:00,120
Speaker 1: many ways uneducated by traditional standards, but now any have

732
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:02,319
Speaker 1: I think if I could have dinner with anybody that's

733
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:05,439
Speaker 1: ever lived and aman who's an American not currently live,

734
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:07,520
Speaker 1: it would be, without doubt, Abraham Lincoln. It might be

735
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:10,719
Speaker 1: the greatest American of them all. Kept the Union together, Uh,

736
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:13,319
Speaker 1: freed the slaves, though not as quickly as some people

737
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:16,279
Speaker 1: would want it. But he was an incredible person, writer,

738
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:18,920
Speaker 1: credit speaker, and and I just like to ask him

739
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:21,279
Speaker 1: this a lot of questions. And it's interesting phenomenon. You

740
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:23,920
Speaker 1: and you and I are all in the interview business.

741
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:26,520
Speaker 1: And this is a business where it's just rebalytively common.

742
00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:28,680
Speaker 1: Now it's not unique to be an interviewer. Right, lots

743
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:30,719
Speaker 1: of people. You know, everybody has a podcast. I think

744
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:32,600
Speaker 1: there should be a bumper secret and says if you

745
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:34,920
Speaker 1: don't have a podcast. Everybody kept their own podcast, everybody

746
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:36,680
Speaker 1: got there on TV show, everybody's got their own radio show.

747
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:40,040
Speaker 1: But this is relatively new. For most of organized history,

748
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:42,840
Speaker 1: there were no interviews. So we have no interviews of Shakespeare,

749
00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:44,640
Speaker 1: we have no interviews in Crea Patrick, we have no

750
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:47,600
Speaker 1: interviews of Abraham Lincoln, George Washington. I wish we could

751
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:49,279
Speaker 1: go back and interview them. I thought about doing a

752
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:51,600
Speaker 1: book interviewing what these people would have said if I'd

753
00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:53,840
Speaker 1: interviewed him, that's a great idea. So I got to

754
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:57,440
Speaker 1: say to William Shakespeare, No, will Um, why do you

755
00:37:57,480 --> 00:37:59,640
Speaker 1: think it is that people think you didn't write these plays?

756
00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:01,719
Speaker 1: Or did you really write these plays? That's the truth?

757
00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:04,320
Speaker 1: Or Cleopatra? Who was a better love with Mark Anthony

758
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:07,719
Speaker 1: or Julius Caesar when you land these interviews? Yea, for

759
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:09,600
Speaker 1: Henry the Eighth, why why didn't you just get a

760
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:11,640
Speaker 1: prenup instead of chopping off the head of your wives.

761
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:13,520
Speaker 1: There's a lot of great questions we went. We want

762
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:16,399
Speaker 1: to know the answers to number four. You did get

763
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:18,960
Speaker 1: some fantastic names for for this book, you know, including

764
00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:21,920
Speaker 1: Ken Burns as we talked about, Matlin, Albred, John meetch Um,

765
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:25,080
Speaker 1: Billy Jean King. Uh. Who did you reach out to

766
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:27,680
Speaker 1: that you couldn't get? Who said, I'm sorry? Who's this?

767
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:32,640
Speaker 1: David Rubinstein? I don't have time kidding? No, Look, some

768
00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:35,440
Speaker 1: people do not like to do interviews, and some people

769
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 1: are more more complicated to get a hold up and

770
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:42,560
Speaker 1: so forth. So I um on this particular book, I

771
00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:45,319
Speaker 1: have not interestmented so did this way. I have not

772
00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:48,560
Speaker 1: yet interviewed Elon Musk, I'd like to do that. Um.

773
00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:50,880
Speaker 1: Water Isaacson is writing a book about him, and that

774
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:53,080
Speaker 1: presumably will be the source of a lot of information

775
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:55,440
Speaker 1: on Twitter. A few weeks ago left talking about that.

776
00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:57,959
Speaker 1: I talked to Water about it and he's very happy

777
00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:01,440
Speaker 1: spending time with him now. And Ellen is Uh, I

778
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:03,719
Speaker 1: won't give away all this, all the stories there, it's

779
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:06,879
Speaker 1: gonna be. It's gonna happen absolutely, um, And I would

780
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:09,319
Speaker 1: say that, Uh, I'd like to interview I have an

781
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:11,880
Speaker 1: interview Mark Zuckerberg. I'm on a board with him in China.

782
00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:14,879
Speaker 1: I've been there when we talked to him a couple

783
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:16,640
Speaker 1: of times, but I haven't really interviewed him, and I

784
00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:18,680
Speaker 1: think that'd be interesting. I had a chance to invest

785
00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:20,440
Speaker 1: in that company when my son in law to be

786
00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:24,040
Speaker 1: was at Harvard and he said investment company. I said,

787
00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:26,360
Speaker 1: it's a dating service, and dating service never get anywhere.

788
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 1: That was thirteen billion dollars ago. Is there a woman

789
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:31,319
Speaker 1: that you haven't talked to you that you would like

790
00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:35,680
Speaker 1: to talk to? Well, Queen Elizabeth doesn't do interviews, UM,

791
00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:38,080
Speaker 1: so I think that's probably not gonna happen. But I

792
00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 1: would say I have not interviewed Uh, Mrs Obama, I've

793
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:44,360
Speaker 1: met her many times, I haven't interviewed her. You should

794
00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:48,560
Speaker 1: be very good as an interviewee. I have interviewed Melinda Gates. Uh.

795
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:53,320
Speaker 1: I've interviewed many business leaders for prominent women. Uh and

796
00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:57,200
Speaker 1: in scott have you thought about I have met her,

797
00:39:57,200 --> 00:40:00,200
Speaker 1: but I don't haven't interviewed I. I haven't actually asked

798
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:02,920
Speaker 1: her yet. I don't. I think she's relatively shy and

799
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:05,440
Speaker 1: doesn't seek publicity as the way she's doing it. But

800
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:08,120
Speaker 1: if she's watching or listening right now, I'm ready to

801
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:11,480
Speaker 1: come out Seattle tomorrow and do that interview because she's

802
00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:13,640
Speaker 1: doing some really good things in philanthropy and really turned

803
00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:16,000
Speaker 1: the world upside down by doing it fast, doing it

804
00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:18,480
Speaker 1: very differently than how a lot of other people have

805
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:21,000
Speaker 1: done it for a long time. Yes, and uh, I

806
00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:23,399
Speaker 1: mean she's got I think she was given thirty four

807
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:25,800
Speaker 1: billion dollars and now it's probably worth seventy five billions,

808
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:28,799
Speaker 1: So she's got a lot of money. We have three

809
00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:31,960
Speaker 1: minutes left. Please don't go anywhere, No, just stay forever. Um.

810
00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:34,799
Speaker 1: The investment environment, I don't know whether it's back, whether

811
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:38,120
Speaker 1: it's crypto. What's interesting to you right now? Well, clearly

812
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:40,239
Speaker 1: crypto is something that gets a lot of attention. It's

813
00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:42,759
Speaker 1: amazing how many people are interested in crypto. Are you

814
00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:45,960
Speaker 1: invested in crypto in any way? I have not invested

815
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:49,120
Speaker 1: in crypto currencies myself. I have invested in some companies

816
00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:51,600
Speaker 1: that kind of service the industry. And my standard view

817
00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:55,120
Speaker 1: on crypto is when you go to Las Vegas, most

818
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:57,120
Speaker 1: people smart to know you're not gonna win there, maybe

819
00:40:57,160 --> 00:40:58,960
Speaker 1: spend more time there. You're certainly not gonna win, but

820
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:01,359
Speaker 1: you enjoy it. You have the pleasure of gambling, so

821
00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:03,479
Speaker 1: you pick one or two percent of your net worth

822
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:05,560
Speaker 1: and do that. Well, the same is true in crypto.

823
00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:08,160
Speaker 1: Crypto you want to speculate, you don't really know that

824
00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:10,040
Speaker 1: much about it. Try it one or two or three percent.

825
00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:13,440
Speaker 1: It's not harmful and you'll probably have enjoyable time. Perhaps.

826
00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:18,440
Speaker 1: I interviewed for my my show on Bloomberg John Paulson recently,

827
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:20,439
Speaker 1: and he is dead set against it. He just said,

828
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:23,120
Speaker 1: this is terrible and it's going to zero. And but

829
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:24,840
Speaker 1: on the other hand, I've interviewed some other people that

830
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:26,759
Speaker 1: will come out soon who are gonna be saying, hey,

831
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:28,200
Speaker 1: I think it's a way to make a lot of money.

832
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:31,160
Speaker 1: There's one personal I be interviewing soon. Who's who's made

833
00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:34,120
Speaker 1: billions of dollars in crypto? What about when it comes

834
00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:36,480
Speaker 1: to SPACs and where we are in this cycle with spacks?

835
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:39,799
Speaker 1: Are they here to stay? And look, spacts aren't anything new,

836
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:42,080
Speaker 1: They're just having a moment right now. SPACs are not

837
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:45,919
Speaker 1: going away. Um. But you have to be wary of

838
00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:47,680
Speaker 1: what you're doing. You have to know what you're really doing.

839
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:49,480
Speaker 1: So spacts are a way to accelerate an I p

840
00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:52,279
Speaker 1: O process And right now it's harder to raise money

841
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:54,400
Speaker 1: for SPACs and not just a spack money. There are

842
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:56,160
Speaker 1: two types of money yet you have to really raise.

843
00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:58,000
Speaker 1: You raise the riditional money for the SPAC, but then

844
00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:00,680
Speaker 1: you raise money that's called a pre I p O money,

845
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:03,040
Speaker 1: which is the money to help you get public um

846
00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:06,000
Speaker 1: or help the public evaluation, uh state of what you

847
00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:08,560
Speaker 1: think it should be. And uh, it's harder to raise

848
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:11,000
Speaker 1: that money right now. A lot of somebody is raising

849
00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:13,560
Speaker 1: I think it's Apollo is raising a fund to invest

850
00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:16,080
Speaker 1: in the SPACs that aren't doing so well and to

851
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:18,520
Speaker 1: try them on the cheap, which is an idea that

852
00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:20,680
Speaker 1: I think is probably has some merit we've already gone

853
00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:23,560
Speaker 1: to distress SPACs. UM, thirty seconds left here? What do

854
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:28,520
Speaker 1: you think will be the next Grand American experiment? Just quickly? Well,

855
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:32,000
Speaker 1: the next experiment that I think we'll see UM. I

856
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:35,000
Speaker 1: think probably we're going to see UM at some point.

857
00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:39,640
Speaker 1: I hope UM greater cooperation between the Republicans and Democratic

858
00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:42,520
Speaker 1: parties when we have some crisis that really unites them

859
00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:45,120
Speaker 1: in ways that we haven't really truly been united since

860
00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:48,080
Speaker 1: nine eleven. Now we're getting ready to celebrate or mark

861
00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:52,200
Speaker 1: I shouldn't I celebrate than theversary nine eleven. UM, we're

862
00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:53,600
Speaker 1: gonna do at the Kenny Center on the chairman of

863
00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:55,719
Speaker 1: Kenny Center. We're gonna have an event doing that and

864
00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:58,759
Speaker 1: thanking our military people, but also thinking the healthcare workers.

865
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:01,319
Speaker 1: We've got us through this more tweetent a period of time.

866
00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:04,520
Speaker 1: We thank you, Thank you very much for having so much.

867
00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:07,120
Speaker 1: David Rubinstein, of course, co founder, co chair of the

868
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:10,360
Speaker 1: Carlisle Group. His latest book, The American Experiment, Dialogues on

869
00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:13,440
Speaker 1: a Dream. Do check it out. It's a great Still summer.

870
00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:16,319
Speaker 1: It is still summer. Everyone still summer. Read this is

871
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:26,560
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Radio. I'm grom a journal Yeah, but you let

872
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:31,160
Speaker 1: me drive. Oh no, no, no, no's d honn please,

873
00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:34,960
Speaker 1: I'll do the right drivel. I want to drive all

874
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:50,479
Speaker 1: Just drive baby. The question driving. This is the drive

875
00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:54,080
Speaker 1: to the globe. Give me thanks, we'll dry up. Dawn

876
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:57,440
Speaker 1: on Bloomberg Radio. All right, yeah, just about eleven and

877
00:43:57,440 --> 00:43:59,400
Speaker 1: a happen. It's good to go until we wrap up

878
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:02,520
Speaker 1: the Thursday tree eating day. Definitely wrapping around, Charlie, noting

879
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:07,080
Speaker 1: that we're well well off our highs of the session. Tim, Oh, well,

880
00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:09,160
Speaker 1: well I should turn my microphone on. How's that. It's

881
00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:14,560
Speaker 1: been a crazy day. Maybe the producers are trying to

882
00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:18,920
Speaker 1: send me a signal. Stan you're talking too much. Well,

883
00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:20,719
Speaker 1: let's get to the drive to the clothes. Aaron again

884
00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:23,920
Speaker 1: and as co founder and CEO of Clear Harbor Asset Management,

885
00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:26,600
Speaker 1: with assets under management more than one billion dollars, it

886
00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:28,880
Speaker 1: joins us once again on the phone from Stanford, Connecticut.

887
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:30,160
Speaker 1: A great to have you back on the show. How

888
00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:33,080
Speaker 1: are you doing doing just fine? Hey? Help us make

889
00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:36,480
Speaker 1: sense of yeah, yeah, we are doing in Yeah, thank

890
00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:38,799
Speaker 1: you for saying that. Um, it's been a challenging twenty

891
00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:41,000
Speaker 1: four hours in the Tri State areas, certainly for for

892
00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:43,200
Speaker 1: for many of our our friends and colleagues, we're thinking

893
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:45,799
Speaker 1: to them. Um, Aaron, I want you to take us

894
00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:48,480
Speaker 1: into today's trade ahead of the jobs report. Um, it

895
00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:50,360
Speaker 1: does seem like investors are kind of stepping back and

896
00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:53,960
Speaker 1: and certainly looking to what happens tomorrow. Um, what are

897
00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:58,600
Speaker 1: you looking for? Well, you know, clearly there's a big

898
00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:02,359
Speaker 1: question around the jectory of employment. But I also think

899
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:04,760
Speaker 1: that we've just gone through a very strong earning season.

900
00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:08,480
Speaker 1: We've had the majority of companies experiencing robust stop and

901
00:45:08,520 --> 00:45:11,839
Speaker 1: bottom line growth, and markets are sort of at all

902
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:14,319
Speaker 1: time highs, at least the SMP five hundred, that is,

903
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:17,680
Speaker 1: And so I think there's some indigestion clearly in the market,

904
00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:20,600
Speaker 1: but there's also sort of a forward looking process that

905
00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:23,240
Speaker 1: everyone is undertaking right now, not only as it pertains

906
00:45:23,239 --> 00:45:26,439
Speaker 1: to the data tomorrow, which is important and could weigh

907
00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:29,200
Speaker 1: on the FETs thinking in September, but as it pertains

908
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:32,279
Speaker 1: to growth and and our expectation is that growth is

909
00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:36,200
Speaker 1: going to continue to decelerate from very lofty levels, and

910
00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:38,400
Speaker 1: that the bond market has you know, really sniffed this

911
00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:41,160
Speaker 1: out many months ago, back starting in March, when when

912
00:45:41,239 --> 00:45:45,200
Speaker 1: yields peaked and Uh. And I think there's a concern

913
00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:48,680
Speaker 1: that as as growth decelerates, so goes the market. But

914
00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:51,319
Speaker 1: I'd also push a little bit back on on that

915
00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:55,680
Speaker 1: sort of prevailing view um our. Our thought is that

916
00:45:55,719 --> 00:45:58,760
Speaker 1: we've already seen a significant rotation within the equity market

917
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:01,080
Speaker 1: out of sort of that process equocal move that we

918
00:46:02,040 --> 00:46:04,840
Speaker 1: started to see back in mid June and play itself

919
00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:09,080
Speaker 1: out when oil peaked to a more growth posture going

920
00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:12,520
Speaker 1: into the non farm payrolls on Friday. You know what's

921
00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:15,960
Speaker 1: interesting is I like what you said about indigestion in

922
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:17,879
Speaker 1: the market, because it does certainly feel that way. At

923
00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:23,560
Speaker 1: the same time, the world is a wash in liquidity,

924
00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:26,080
Speaker 1: and our gena Martin Adams comes on consistently and says

925
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:30,399
Speaker 1: that money's got to go somewhere, and and you increasingly

926
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:33,319
Speaker 1: see it or continually see it go into the U

927
00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:37,200
Speaker 1: S equity market because again, the US economy has certainly

928
00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:39,880
Speaker 1: bounced back first. Uh, if you compare it to the

929
00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:42,760
Speaker 1: rest of the developed markets. Uh. And that's where investors

930
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:44,759
Speaker 1: seem to be continuing to place the bets. And I

931
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:46,640
Speaker 1: guess right now we have to figure out how long

932
00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:50,239
Speaker 1: that kind of trade also continues, right, Yeah, And I

933
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:55,200
Speaker 1: think as growth does decelerate, that trend towards growth equities

934
00:46:55,239 --> 00:46:58,840
Speaker 1: and perhaps more defensive segments of the equity market like healthcare,

935
00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:03,200
Speaker 1: UM could could still accrue to the US market perhaps

936
00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:07,480
Speaker 1: more than the UM the international developed markets. If you

937
00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:10,360
Speaker 1: just look at the sort of constituencies of those markets.

938
00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:13,719
Speaker 1: We have more tech than than for example, of the Eurozone,

939
00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:17,600
Speaker 1: and so UM if that trend prevails, it could just

940
00:47:17,640 --> 00:47:20,839
Speaker 1: sort of accrue to the to the US marketplace. But UM.

941
00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:23,760
Speaker 1: I also think that sometimes not making a big bet

942
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:27,440
Speaker 1: on cyclical versus growth is not a bad idea from

943
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:29,960
Speaker 1: time to time, and this may be that moment. You know,

944
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:32,399
Speaker 1: we've already had this sort of front half of two

945
00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:37,600
Speaker 1: thousand and twenty one, massive cyclical move higher oil, industrials, materials,

946
00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:41,880
Speaker 1: banks all t outperforming the technology sector for example, consumer

947
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:45,800
Speaker 1: discretionary and communications, and in the last two and a

948
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:48,400
Speaker 1: half months we've seen the opposite play out. In the

949
00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:51,760
Speaker 1: back half of this year, I think maybe one where

950
00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:53,640
Speaker 1: we continue to see that trend, but it will not

951
00:47:53,719 --> 00:47:57,160
Speaker 1: be as as robust is just the last couple of months,

952
00:47:57,480 --> 00:47:59,520
Speaker 1: But that's to be expected to be fair. I mean,

953
00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:02,640
Speaker 1: we're only kind of came out with UM some expectations.

954
00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:04,799
Speaker 1: Talking about the U S slow down the third quarter,

955
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:07,120
Speaker 1: I mean that is to be expected compared to write

956
00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:10,759
Speaker 1: because the dynamic crazy numbers of growth have happened as

957
00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:13,080
Speaker 1: we have we bounced back from the pandemic. And I'm

958
00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:16,439
Speaker 1: sorry Tim forgetting but I mean right that. I mean

959
00:48:16,719 --> 00:48:20,560
Speaker 1: it's kind of playing out like we expected in many ways. Yeah,

960
00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:23,359
Speaker 1: but if you if we were talking a month ago,

961
00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:29,440
Speaker 1: UM q Q three growth was probably one percentage point

962
00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:32,440
Speaker 1: higher than it is right now on expectations, and so

963
00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:36,440
Speaker 1: they've come down even further. UM. And the question is

964
00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:40,640
Speaker 1: will we continue to see a ratcheting down and growth expectations? UM?

965
00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:42,960
Speaker 1: I I suspect we we could. We saw the I

966
00:48:43,160 --> 00:48:47,080
Speaker 1: S M data, UM, you know disappoint We're seeing growth

967
00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:49,759
Speaker 1: slow in China, both sort of export driven growth as

968
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:52,480
Speaker 1: well as consumer driven growth. In fact, there is a

969
00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:55,080
Speaker 1: belief that the central bank wouldn't wouldn't be moving to

970
00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:58,319
Speaker 1: sort of shore up their currency, and and now there

971
00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:01,360
Speaker 1: there's a belief that central bank will be you know,

972
00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:05,200
Speaker 1: much more you know, incrementally duvish. So UM. That has

973
00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:09,000
Speaker 1: huge implications for global currencies as well as equit markets.

974
00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:10,880
Speaker 1: How are you deploying tapitle right now, how are you

975
00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:14,920
Speaker 1: putting money to work from clients? Good, good question. UM.

976
00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:17,920
Speaker 1: Every one of our clients has a different sort of

977
00:49:18,040 --> 00:49:22,400
Speaker 1: risk profile, a different objective, UM, different duration as well,

978
00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:25,160
Speaker 1: depending on whether or not there a non for profit

979
00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:30,200
Speaker 1: organization or an elderly couple or a young professional. And

980
00:49:30,239 --> 00:49:33,760
Speaker 1: so we really take all of that into account UM

981
00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:37,759
Speaker 1: in trying to sort of structure portfolios, and so equities

982
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:41,279
Speaker 1: tend tend to be at this sort of core of

983
00:49:41,280 --> 00:49:44,240
Speaker 1: of a portfolio. But we also believe in the idea

984
00:49:44,239 --> 00:49:49,000
Speaker 1: of allocating for particular clients that you know are averse

985
00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:54,040
Speaker 1: to having portfolio volatility to to the extreme, allocate to

986
00:49:54,080 --> 00:49:58,640
Speaker 1: antifragile assets or assets that can uh sometimes buttress a

987
00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:01,719
Speaker 1: portfolio when the economy and the equity markets are not

988
00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:04,920
Speaker 1: performing well. So that could, depending on the moment in time,

989
00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:08,440
Speaker 1: include gold, it could include components of the fixed income

990
00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:12,480
Speaker 1: market like longer duration or short duration treasuries, as well

991
00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:17,959
Speaker 1: as investment grade credit mortgages. So our view is that

992
00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:21,520
Speaker 1: UM treasury still have a role in a multi asset

993
00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:27,280
Speaker 1: class portfolio, even though they are unfortunately yielding a negative

994
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:31,279
Speaker 1: level at the moment. So, for example, tomorrow's non fund

995
00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:34,520
Speaker 1: Parallels report comes in and it's a two hundred thousand. Uh,

996
00:50:34,680 --> 00:50:37,840
Speaker 1: We're not so sure the equity market behaves all that

997
00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:41,360
Speaker 1: well tomorrow under that scenario. That would be so weak

998
00:50:42,840 --> 00:50:47,480
Speaker 1: is the estimate from according to right. So if it

999
00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:53,120
Speaker 1: was an extraordinarily weak number, um, it could. Um, you know,

1000
00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:55,920
Speaker 1: this is how counterintuitive the market is today though. But

1001
00:50:56,040 --> 00:50:59,680
Speaker 1: in theory, um, there could be some market indigestion there.

1002
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:02,000
Speaker 1: But on the other hand, we could see the long

1003
00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:05,240
Speaker 1: dated segment of the treasure market rally, and that could

1004
00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:09,160
Speaker 1: also afford the FED to be even more dubbish. So

1005
00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:11,200
Speaker 1: then you know, we could we could we could see

1006
00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:14,919
Speaker 1: equities in fact rally on the heels of extraordinarily weak

1007
00:51:14,960 --> 00:51:18,920
Speaker 1: economic data. Right. So it's just an interesting time to

1008
00:51:19,120 --> 00:51:22,279
Speaker 1: be an acid all acid allocation. It's that market. It's

1009
00:51:22,320 --> 00:51:23,839
Speaker 1: that movie we saw for a long time. I feel

1010
00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:26,560
Speaker 1: like Aaron. After the financial crisis, bad news was good news.

1011
00:51:26,560 --> 00:51:29,880
Speaker 1: It meant the FED was going to stay easy for longer. Uh.

1012
00:51:29,920 --> 00:51:32,680
Speaker 1: And so um, you know I always think about this

1013
00:51:32,760 --> 00:51:34,520
Speaker 1: with it with the economic means, at some point we

1014
00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:39,000
Speaker 1: want the economy to get back to normal. Normal is good. Um.

1015
00:51:39,160 --> 00:51:44,040
Speaker 1: But but the investment markets don't always see it that way, right, absolutely,

1016
00:51:44,120 --> 00:51:47,400
Speaker 1: and you know, we do see opportunities within within equities

1017
00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:51,239
Speaker 1: across multiple sectors. But you know, whether it's artificial intelligence

1018
00:51:51,280 --> 00:51:55,200
Speaker 1: or the renewable sector or the economy, water utilities look

1019
00:51:55,440 --> 00:51:59,960
Speaker 1: still look extraordinarily interesting to us. Um you know, they're

1020
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:03,400
Speaker 1: they're they're just you know, still wonderful companies in the

1021
00:52:03,440 --> 00:52:05,600
Speaker 1: midst of a market that's trading at twenty times forward

1022
00:52:05,680 --> 00:52:09,160
Speaker 1: multiple and doesn't look seemingly attractive, that are continuing to

1023
00:52:09,239 --> 00:52:14,200
Speaker 1: grow at um you know, revenue growth on an annualized basis,

1024
00:52:14,640 --> 00:52:16,840
Speaker 1: and in the question of course, comes down to price.

1025
00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:19,399
Speaker 1: All right, we gotta run. Hey, Aaron, have a good

1026
00:52:19,719 --> 00:52:23,120
Speaker 1: holiday weekend. Aaron Kennon, co founder CEO of Clear Harbor

1027
00:52:23,160 --> 00:52:26,440
Speaker 1: asset management of a billion in assets under management, on

1028
00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:30,800
Speaker 1: the phone from Stanford, Connecticut. Thanks for listening to Bloomberg

1029
00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:34,480
Speaker 1: Business Week. Download the podcast on iTunes, SoundCloud, or Bloomberg

1030
00:52:34,520 --> 00:52:36,359
Speaker 1: dot com, and you can also listen to our radio

1031
00:52:36,400 --> 00:52:38,960
Speaker 1: show at two pm Eastern on Bloomberg Radio or watch

1032
00:52:39,080 --> 00:52:41,440
Speaker 1: us on YouTube. Sarah to Bloomberg Global News