WEBVTT - Complex PTSD and the Art of Survival with Author Stephanie Foo 0:00:00.360 --> 0:00:04.640 I think it got too difficult really for me to 0:00:04.720 --> 0:00:08.520 pretend to be normal. I just couldn't do it anymore. 0:00:09.200 --> 0:00:11.840 Part of me wish as I could have just pretended 0:00:12.320 --> 0:00:16.000 like everything was okay and I could be the high 0:00:16.079 --> 0:00:19.680 performing badass that everyone thought I was, and I just 0:00:20.360 --> 0:00:25.640 could not. And once I admitted that to myself and said, 0:00:25.680 --> 0:00:27.960 you know, I might not be that person, but here's 0:00:28.000 --> 0:00:32.519 who I am instead, that's when life got a lot easier, 0:00:32.920 --> 0:00:37.160 more comfortable. And yeah, that's when my tribe came along 0:00:37.159 --> 0:00:40.479 and everyone was like, oh, us too, and prove that 0:00:40.520 --> 0:00:43.879 there is a different way to live this life that 0:00:44.040 --> 0:00:46.479 is just as valuable and just as viable. 0:00:49.880 --> 0:00:52.720 This is here after, And I'm your host, Megan Divine, 0:00:52.960 --> 0:00:55.400 author of the best selling book It's Okay that You're 0:00:55.400 --> 0:00:58.800 Not Okay. Each week I bring you conversations with authors 0:00:58.840 --> 0:01:03.240 and activists and other really cool people, all exploring what 0:01:03.280 --> 0:01:06.160 it means to be a fully feeling human in an 0:01:06.200 --> 0:01:10.360 often difficult world. Now, if you've lived through horrific trauma 0:01:10.440 --> 0:01:13.320 or abuse, is it really fair of us to say 0:01:13.319 --> 0:01:15.759 that the ways you've learned to cope with that trauma 0:01:15.880 --> 0:01:19.640 or abuse are bad? Like bad? In air? Quotes here 0:01:19.959 --> 0:01:23.880 or to use clinical speak to call your coping skills maladaptive. 0:01:25.040 --> 0:01:28.800 This week on hereafter Stephanie Foot, author of What My 0:01:28.840 --> 0:01:32.600 Bones Know. She joins me to talk about complex PTSD 0:01:32.800 --> 0:01:37.120 and the ways we pathologize human responses to trauma. You'll 0:01:37.120 --> 0:01:40.880 also hear how claiming your own messy complex coping mechanisms 0:01:40.880 --> 0:01:43.240 can help you build a community that sees you and 0:01:43.480 --> 0:01:48.040 loves you. All of that and more coming up after 0:01:48.040 --> 0:01:59.320 this first break Before we get started, two quick notes. 0:02:00.160 --> 0:02:03.560 This episode is an encore performance. I am on break 0:02:03.600 --> 0:02:06.600 working on a giant new project, so we're releasing a 0:02:06.680 --> 0:02:09.400 mix of our favorite episodes from the first three seasons 0:02:09.440 --> 0:02:12.160 of the show. Some of these conversations you might have 0:02:12.280 --> 0:02:15.800 missed in your original seasons, and some shows just truly 0:02:15.840 --> 0:02:19.840 deserve multiple listens so that you capture all of the goodness. 0:02:20.680 --> 0:02:23.959 Second note, while we cover a lot of emotional, relational 0:02:24.040 --> 0:02:26.560 territory and our time here together, this show is not 0:02:26.639 --> 0:02:29.200 a substitute for skilled support with a license memntal health 0:02:29.240 --> 0:02:33.679 provider or for professional supervision related to your work. Take 0:02:33.720 --> 0:02:36.280 what you learn here, take your thoughts and your reflections 0:02:36.320 --> 0:02:42.600 out into your world and talk about it. Hi, friends, Now, 0:02:42.639 --> 0:02:46.320 as a survivor of trauma myself. I am really sensitive 0:02:46.520 --> 0:02:49.600 about asking my guests to summarize the things they've lived through. 0:02:50.200 --> 0:02:52.679 I've been on that media circuit where you just talk 0:02:52.760 --> 0:02:54.880 about some of the worst moments of your life over 0:02:54.919 --> 0:02:59.000 and over and over again. Like answering these deeply personal 0:02:59.680 --> 0:03:03.240 questions about horrendous, difficult things over and over. It's just 0:03:03.400 --> 0:03:06.799 it's weird. So whenever I can, I try to shift 0:03:06.880 --> 0:03:11.400 the burden of telling the horrendous story off of my 0:03:11.480 --> 0:03:14.440 guest and front loaded here into my introduction to the show. 0:03:14.800 --> 0:03:18.160 And that's what I've done today. Stephanie Fu grew up 0:03:18.240 --> 0:03:22.399 in San Jose, California, surrounded by manicured landscapes and high 0:03:22.440 --> 0:03:26.960 achieving immigrant families. From the outside, her family looked like 0:03:27.000 --> 0:03:32.240 that coveted American dream scenario, but on the inside it 0:03:32.320 --> 0:03:37.600 was very much a nightmare. Stephanie's parents regularly beat her 0:03:37.880 --> 0:03:41.520 and emotionally abused her, before eventually abandoning her when she 0:03:41.720 --> 0:03:48.000 was sixteen. In twenty eighteen, Stephanie was diagnosed with complex PTSD, 0:03:48.240 --> 0:03:51.840 a little understood and little studied form of post traumatic 0:03:51.840 --> 0:03:55.720 stress disorder that can occur from repeated long term trauma. 0:03:57.120 --> 0:03:59.720 Stephanie's best selling book, What My Bones Note tells the 0:03:59.760 --> 0:04:03.760 story of that intense childhood abuse and the coping patterns 0:04:03.760 --> 0:04:07.840 that helped her survive what she had to survive. The 0:04:07.840 --> 0:04:11.560 book is also a story of intergenerational trauma, immigration, and 0:04:11.760 --> 0:04:16.040 understanding the roots of violence, while not excusing the violence itself. 0:04:16.640 --> 0:04:19.520 Just that last bit is such a super important point, 0:04:19.600 --> 0:04:21.479 and I'm really glad that we got to talk about 0:04:21.480 --> 0:04:24.279 it a little bit in this conversation now. Books on 0:04:24.360 --> 0:04:29.920 complex PTSD, like many other diagnoses or conditions that we have, 0:04:30.400 --> 0:04:33.280 books on complex PTSD can be really dry and honestly 0:04:33.400 --> 0:04:37.560 kind of clueless and cruel in their descriptions about people 0:04:37.560 --> 0:04:41.120 who carry long term behaviors or patterns of behavior due 0:04:41.120 --> 0:04:45.279 to the trauma and abuse they survived. So you'll hear 0:04:45.360 --> 0:04:48.200 it in our conversation today. But Stephanie really wants you 0:04:48.240 --> 0:04:51.279 all to know that her book is written by a 0:04:51.400 --> 0:04:56.000 trauma survivor for other trauma survivors, not just child aboose, 0:04:56.080 --> 0:05:02.800 but war and other kind of repeated horrible experiences. She 0:05:02.839 --> 0:05:04.880 wants you to know that the book focuses on healing, 0:05:04.920 --> 0:05:06.960 but the kind of healing that can only come when 0:05:06.960 --> 0:05:11.120 you respect the ways that each person managed to survive 0:05:11.360 --> 0:05:14.200 what they went through. I promise you that's going to 0:05:14.240 --> 0:05:16.719 make more sense as you listen to the show. But 0:05:16.800 --> 0:05:19.479 if you're haunted by any type of trauma or you 0:05:19.560 --> 0:05:22.600 know someone who is, this conversation with Stephanie fu is 0:05:22.640 --> 0:05:27.159 a great introduction to complex PTSD and the work of survivorship. 0:05:27.640 --> 0:05:31.320 So let's get into it. Content notes everybody, This episode 0:05:31.400 --> 0:05:34.840 contains non graphic reference to abuse and trauma, and it 0:05:34.880 --> 0:05:41.520 includes a small amount of swearing, well. 0:05:41.440 --> 0:05:44.320 Hi, hello, thank you for having me. 0:05:44.800 --> 0:05:49.240 Absolutely, I sat down and read your book cover to 0:05:49.279 --> 0:05:51.599 cover over the course of like eight hours on Sunday. 0:05:51.640 --> 0:05:52.840 Oh wow fast. 0:05:53.400 --> 0:05:57.000 So one of the things that I would really love 0:05:57.040 --> 0:05:59.040 to talk about throwing it out there is like you 0:05:59.360 --> 0:06:02.880 write a lot about how we pathologize responses to trauma. 0:06:03.040 --> 0:06:05.039 Mm hmm, no matter what happens to you, like the 0:06:05.080 --> 0:06:10.000 healthy responses to be completely unaffected, like rise above and 0:06:10.080 --> 0:06:14.160 always present as really chill. There's a section I particularly 0:06:14.200 --> 0:06:16.640 liked in your book when you talk about meeting Joey 0:06:16.680 --> 0:06:19.000 for the first time and you're like, I am pretending 0:06:19.040 --> 0:06:21.760 to be completely non anxious and chill and all of 0:06:21.800 --> 0:06:24.920 these things, and he's like Okay, but tell me what's 0:06:24.960 --> 0:06:28.479 actually happening. Yeah, so, can we talk about that like that, 0:06:29.040 --> 0:06:32.839 the ways that we pathologize responses to trauma. 0:06:33.360 --> 0:06:38.320 Yeah so, I think, you know, just the word trauma itself, 0:06:38.400 --> 0:06:42.400 I think is pathologized. I think there's this understanding that 0:06:42.920 --> 0:06:48.919 trauma itself, experiencing it makes you broken. I remember reading 0:06:48.920 --> 0:06:52.240 this Vox article where they were saying, you know, be 0:06:52.320 --> 0:06:56.320 careful about how you use the word trauma, because if 0:06:56.360 --> 0:07:01.760 you describe yourself as traumatized, that is like that you 0:07:01.920 --> 0:07:08.360 are broken and helpless and like you're robbing yourself resiliency 0:07:08.440 --> 0:07:12.800 because you're basically admitting that you know there's no hope 0:07:12.800 --> 0:07:14.040 for yourself and you're giving up. 0:07:15.120 --> 0:07:15.680 Oh my god. 0:07:15.680 --> 0:07:18.800 And I was like, wait, what whoo? Why would you 0:07:18.840 --> 0:07:21.080 define I mean, yeah, I mean I guess it's a 0:07:21.160 --> 0:07:24.920 problem to say that you are traumatized if that's how 0:07:24.920 --> 0:07:28.320 you're going to define trauma. But I don't think trauma 0:07:28.320 --> 0:07:31.680 needs to be defined in that way. I think the 0:07:31.760 --> 0:07:34.840 fact of the matter is that we all experience some 0:07:34.880 --> 0:07:40.000 form of trauma, and trauma is a scientific adaptation to 0:07:40.240 --> 0:07:43.440 keep us alive. Like if you're bitten by a snake, 0:07:43.480 --> 0:07:46.320 you're going to be afraid of snakes. If you touch 0:07:46.320 --> 0:07:48.960 a hot stove, you're going to be really careful around 0:07:49.000 --> 0:07:52.679 a hot stove, Like it's basically your brain wiring threat 0:07:52.720 --> 0:07:55.600 and saying like, hey, this is something that's really dangerous 0:07:55.640 --> 0:07:59.640 that could kill you, so be vigilant around the thing 0:07:59.640 --> 0:08:03.880 that could kill you. And you know, for some of us, 0:08:04.280 --> 0:08:08.440 those triggers like being afraid of snakes are maybe more 0:08:08.480 --> 0:08:14.520 sensible than others, not sensible, but more like manageable than others. 0:08:14.600 --> 0:08:18.360 Like being afraid of anyone who's using a loud voice. 0:08:18.520 --> 0:08:21.080 You know, Yeah, being afraid of someone who's yelling. You're 0:08:21.080 --> 0:08:23.400 going to encounter that much more in life. That's harder 0:08:23.400 --> 0:08:25.200 to avoid, right than snakes. 0:08:25.560 --> 0:08:28.920 I think it's really interesting that like the self definition 0:08:29.080 --> 0:08:33.880 of trauma, right, that we have this idea that it's 0:08:33.960 --> 0:08:38.240 not the incident of trauma that's the problem, it's allowing 0:08:38.320 --> 0:08:41.679 yourself to identify as traumatized. I think we have that 0:08:42.360 --> 0:08:44.760 as like, oh, you're being a victim and you're never 0:08:44.800 --> 0:08:46.280 going to be able to get out of this, Like 0:08:46.360 --> 0:08:51.040 it's such a weird like it's so weird, it's so weird, 0:08:51.120 --> 0:08:54.680 like that that whole nothing bad should happen to you. 0:08:55.080 --> 0:08:58.560 If it does, your your prime directive is to be 0:08:58.640 --> 0:09:02.280 resilient and unaffected, and don't even name it as a 0:09:02.320 --> 0:09:06.480 bad thing, because that's almost like invoking badness if you 0:09:06.520 --> 0:09:07.520 call the bad thing bad. 0:09:08.040 --> 0:09:14.280 Exactly. I think it's completely missing the fact that trauma 0:09:14.360 --> 0:09:19.480 can be an adaptation. There's lots of fears and responses 0:09:19.520 --> 0:09:22.760 to trauma that actually can be healthy, that actually can 0:09:22.800 --> 0:09:26.680 make us sort of extremely useful in a variety of 0:09:26.720 --> 0:09:32.480 different situations. And it's also just not a very empathetic 0:09:32.520 --> 0:09:35.120 or kind place to come from considering that all of 0:09:35.160 --> 0:09:37.240 us have some form of trauma. If you're going to 0:09:38.040 --> 0:09:41.320 judge everyone for their trauma response instead of stepping in 0:09:41.360 --> 0:09:43.320 and saying like, hey, are you having a trauma response? 0:09:43.360 --> 0:09:44.960 Do you need a minute? What do you need? How 0:09:45.000 --> 0:09:47.040 can I help you? How can I support you in this, 0:09:47.720 --> 0:09:51.320 there's going to be a lot more conflict, judgment, and 0:09:52.000 --> 0:09:56.719 refusal to make space. And I think it's very ablest 0:09:57.200 --> 0:10:03.800 and like, what is this perfect, untouched population of people anyway, 0:10:04.040 --> 0:10:06.080 honestly that they've never gone through anything hard? 0:10:06.960 --> 0:10:10.000 Yeah, I mean, I think it's like that common default 0:10:10.000 --> 0:10:12.600 that everybody is pretending to be okay when We're not okay, 0:10:12.600 --> 0:10:15.640 which is basically like the entire reason for my work 0:10:15.679 --> 0:10:18.880 and this show is to start talking about how hard 0:10:18.920 --> 0:10:21.160 it is to be human and the stuff we go through, 0:10:21.280 --> 0:10:24.480 and that we adapt to the things that we go through. 0:10:24.480 --> 0:10:27.320 And that's not the same as resilienced or overcoming, but 0:10:27.440 --> 0:10:30.720 it's more like shit happens to you, and some of 0:10:30.760 --> 0:10:32.920 the ways that you survive that and deal with that 0:10:33.000 --> 0:10:36.760 are awesome in the right context, and some of those 0:10:36.760 --> 0:10:40.520 ways are really difficult, but they're not wrong. 0:10:41.240 --> 0:10:45.600 Yeah. Yeah, it's the judgment of that that makes it 0:10:45.679 --> 0:10:50.360 impossible to live with, not the challenge itself. 0:10:51.000 --> 0:10:54.480 Right, Stephanie, can you give us a description of complex 0:10:54.520 --> 0:10:57.160 PTSD and how that's different than I don't know, like 0:10:57.200 --> 0:10:59.920 the post traumatic stress disorder that people might know. 0:11:00.440 --> 0:11:05.720 Yeah, so PTSD you can get quote unquote traditional PTSD 0:11:05.800 --> 0:11:09.160 from a singular traumatic event. So let's say you're hit 0:11:09.200 --> 0:11:13.679 by a car that can give you PTSD. Complex PTSD 0:11:13.880 --> 0:11:15.800 is kind of like if you were hit by that 0:11:15.920 --> 0:11:19.480 car every week for three years. It's when the trauma 0:11:19.520 --> 0:11:23.640 happens over and over and over, and unless you are 0:11:23.960 --> 0:11:28.600 like a tremendously unlucky individual, the only way that you're 0:11:28.600 --> 0:11:34.280 probably getting complex PTSD is from a difficult relationship with 0:11:34.360 --> 0:11:39.360 other people. So having an abuser, suffering from child abuse, 0:11:39.679 --> 0:11:43.600 domestic violence, or living in a war zone. So complex 0:11:43.640 --> 0:11:48.280 PTSD in particular tends to really erode people's trust of 0:11:48.559 --> 0:11:53.000 other human beings and make relationships a little bit different. 0:11:53.480 --> 0:11:56.640 Yeah. Yeah, when that is what you absorb, right, Our 0:11:56.679 --> 0:11:59.839 relationships tell us about the world, and when your relationships 0:11:59.840 --> 0:12:01.800 to you that the world is an unsafe place, then 0:12:01.840 --> 0:12:05.120 the world is an unsafe place, and we learn lots 0:12:05.160 --> 0:12:09.560 of different ways to survive that place. When I am 0:12:09.679 --> 0:12:12.360 having a conversation with an author who has a book out, 0:12:12.480 --> 0:12:14.240 like I don't want to give the book away because 0:12:14.280 --> 0:12:17.199 I really really want people to read the book. We 0:12:17.200 --> 0:12:21.599 were talking earlier that like my perfectionist overwork tendencies. I'm like, 0:12:21.640 --> 0:12:24.040 I'm basically going to develop a book report on your 0:12:24.040 --> 0:12:27.240 book for everybody, but like, no, stop it, right. A 0:12:27.240 --> 0:12:29.080 book is a sort of a one way conversation and 0:12:29.160 --> 0:12:31.960 the sparks that we gather from that, like, that's that's 0:12:32.000 --> 0:12:33.800 where that's really interesting to me. There was actually a 0:12:33.840 --> 0:12:36.959 tweet that you had out about what My Bones Know 0:12:37.120 --> 0:12:39.240 is now going into its six printing in five months. 0:12:39.240 --> 0:12:41.160 Thank you to the therapists and teachers who have been 0:12:41.160 --> 0:12:43.679 assigning it, the caretakers who have been studying it, and 0:12:43.760 --> 0:12:46.040 most of all the survivors for opening your hearts to it. 0:12:47.720 --> 0:12:52.160 This is like the dream, right, the dream here of 0:12:52.640 --> 0:12:57.200 taking something deeply personal, deeply painful. It's not easy to 0:12:57.280 --> 0:13:00.720 write about these really intense personal experiences put them out 0:13:00.800 --> 0:13:04.960 into the world for public display, inter section. Yeah, and 0:13:05.000 --> 0:13:12.320 that knowing that doing that means something to people. Yeah, yeah, right, 0:13:12.600 --> 0:13:14.360 Can we talk about that a little bit, that that 0:13:15.080 --> 0:13:19.280 interesting zone of here's this really intimate personal stuff that 0:13:19.360 --> 0:13:22.280 was probably not very easy to write either, certainly wasn't 0:13:22.280 --> 0:13:23.760 easy to live and putting it out in the world 0:13:23.840 --> 0:13:27.040 and seeing the impact of that. What's that been like 0:13:27.080 --> 0:13:29.320 for you? To see the impact of your story in 0:13:29.360 --> 0:13:29.720 the world. 0:13:30.080 --> 0:13:34.400 It's been tremendously meaningful, because well, when I was first diagnosed, 0:13:34.640 --> 0:13:37.800 there was nothing like my book out there. Everything that 0:13:37.840 --> 0:13:41.679 I read was very clinical. Most of it was not 0:13:42.080 --> 0:13:45.959 meant for people like me to read. It was clear 0:13:46.000 --> 0:13:48.360 that it wasn't. A lot of it was not made 0:13:48.640 --> 0:13:53.040 for people actually with complex PTSD to read, because they 0:13:53.040 --> 0:13:57.199 would talk shit about us. They'd be like complex people 0:13:57.200 --> 0:14:00.480 with complex PTSD are so difficult to treat. They are 0:14:01.120 --> 0:14:05.040 you know, they are burdens, they are pain in the ass, 0:14:05.120 --> 0:14:08.240 they are whatever. They would say all of these things, 0:14:08.240 --> 0:14:10.400 and I was like, did you think that I'd be 0:14:10.440 --> 0:14:13.439 too stupid to read this? Like what? I don't understand? 0:14:14.360 --> 0:14:17.439 A lot of it was very pathologizing, a lot of 0:14:17.520 --> 0:14:22.680 it was very dry, just not very fun to write. Yeah, 0:14:22.760 --> 0:14:25.920 And you know, I was a person who was coming 0:14:25.920 --> 0:14:29.520 from a storytelling background. Obviously, it told stories for ten years, 0:14:29.520 --> 0:14:33.480 first person stories, other people's first person stories. And I 0:14:33.600 --> 0:14:37.240 realized the impact that had for empathy, for a narrative, 0:14:38.120 --> 0:14:41.160 for feeling less alone. You know, I'd helped so many 0:14:41.200 --> 0:14:44.720 other groups feel less alone by showcasing these important stories, 0:14:44.760 --> 0:14:48.840 but never really my own. And so when I was 0:14:48.880 --> 0:14:51.720 reading all of these books and recognizing that, you know, 0:14:52.000 --> 0:14:54.880 that first person story just did not exist, and it 0:14:55.320 --> 0:15:01.400 made me feel so isolated and freakish and damaged, I 0:15:01.440 --> 0:15:04.880 guess and I knew that if I healed from this 0:15:05.080 --> 0:15:07.200 in any kind of way, I would need to write 0:15:07.240 --> 0:15:11.080 about it, because that story was just needed. I didn't 0:15:11.080 --> 0:15:14.640 want anybody else to feel as completely isolated as I 0:15:14.680 --> 0:15:18.640 did after diagnosis, And I always told myself in this 0:15:18.720 --> 0:15:22.320 process that like, my story did not represent everyone with 0:15:22.400 --> 0:15:26.320 complex PTSD. I mean, it's obviously a spectrum. We all 0:15:26.360 --> 0:15:32.000 have different symptoms and experiences. And I told myself that 0:15:32.040 --> 0:15:36.400 if one person benefited from the book, then the four 0:15:36.520 --> 0:15:39.800 years of creating it would be worth it, It'd be okay. 0:15:40.880 --> 0:15:46.480 So to have the response be so overwhelmingly positive, to 0:15:46.640 --> 0:15:50.240 get like dozens of messages every day saying like you 0:15:50.320 --> 0:15:56.080 got it, that's exactly what it's like, it's been really wonderful. 0:15:56.280 --> 0:15:59.840 And it's made me realize how truly needed this was 0:16:00.800 --> 0:16:03.720 and to be able to give words to people for this. Yeah, 0:16:03.760 --> 0:16:05.480 I mean, I think it's been great on a couple 0:16:05.560 --> 0:16:08.000 different levels. I think first of all, it's made me 0:16:08.080 --> 0:16:11.920 feel less alone because I didn't really have many people 0:16:11.920 --> 0:16:14.760 in my life with complex PTSD, and now I see 0:16:14.760 --> 0:16:18.880 people with all different backgrounds and careers, from herbalists to 0:16:19.080 --> 0:16:24.320 doctors to like, you know, farmers, all messaging me saying like, 0:16:24.480 --> 0:16:28.160 your experience is my experience. Certainly it makes me feel 0:16:28.480 --> 0:16:31.760 a lot less freakish myself and apparently have helped other 0:16:31.760 --> 0:16:36.440 people do that. And yeah, it also give some sort 0:16:36.440 --> 0:16:40.960 of meaning and power to like the true anguish that 0:16:41.000 --> 0:16:45.600 I've had to experience, and it gives some affirmation to 0:16:45.640 --> 0:16:48.720 that self loathing that I've suffered from for so long. 0:16:49.120 --> 0:16:51.840 That I don't deserve to be here. You know, that 0:16:51.920 --> 0:16:55.080 I'm too broken to be here, that I don't fit 0:16:55.120 --> 0:16:59.920 in with everyone else. I guess those feelings and more important, 0:17:00.120 --> 0:17:05.160 like learning how to corral those feelings has actually made 0:17:05.200 --> 0:17:08.440 me sort of able to shine a light for those 0:17:08.440 --> 0:17:11.720 who come behind me and has shown me that I 0:17:11.760 --> 0:17:14.159 really do have a place of importance here, that we 0:17:14.200 --> 0:17:17.200 all have a place of importance of being the healers 0:17:17.440 --> 0:17:18.400 who can lead the way. 0:17:18.880 --> 0:17:23.000 It's so counterintuitive or counter to the ways that we 0:17:23.040 --> 0:17:26.560 talk about quote unquote mental health in this culture. Right 0:17:26.760 --> 0:17:30.280 that if you say or if you're feeling alone in something, 0:17:30.400 --> 0:17:32.040 or you're feeling like a freak, you're feeling like the 0:17:32.080 --> 0:17:35.280 only one who's experiencing these things, then your call to 0:17:35.320 --> 0:17:39.160 perform harder, right, perform like everyone else a little bit 0:17:39.160 --> 0:17:41.239 harder to fit in. If you're feeling lonely, you have 0:17:41.280 --> 0:17:44.639 to be more like everybody else. And the reverse of 0:17:44.640 --> 0:17:49.760 that is actually what's accurate. The willingness to tell the 0:17:49.840 --> 0:17:52.119 truth about who you are and where you are and 0:17:52.119 --> 0:17:57.040 what you're feeling and what you're experiencing that stripped down, 0:17:57.880 --> 0:18:02.080 not bright, shiny package truth like that is how not 0:18:02.119 --> 0:18:04.360 only you feel less alone, but others feel lesson. It's 0:18:04.359 --> 0:18:05.440 like how we find each other. 0:18:05.760 --> 0:18:22.920 Yeah, okay, let's get back to the. 0:18:22.359 --> 0:18:27.719 Writer, an all around awesome person, Stephanie Fuh. There's a 0:18:27.760 --> 0:18:30.680 site called Glow in the Woods that was started by 0:18:31.119 --> 0:18:32.520 I'm going to space on her last name, but her 0:18:32.520 --> 0:18:35.480 first name is Kate and one of the descriptions it's 0:18:35.480 --> 0:18:38.879 a like a crowdsourced blog community platform for people who 0:18:38.960 --> 0:18:42.800 have experienced baby death, and she says, I envisioned a 0:18:42.840 --> 0:18:45.199 glow in the Woods, a place where all of the 0:18:45.200 --> 0:18:48.879 medusas could come and take their hats off, this place 0:18:48.920 --> 0:18:53.440 where nobody's afraid of your snakes because they have their own. Yeah, 0:18:53.960 --> 0:18:58.840 and I really see that power of storytelling, and not 0:18:59.040 --> 0:19:01.080 just the power of story, but the power of telling 0:19:01.119 --> 0:19:01.560 the truth. 0:19:03.600 --> 0:19:07.879 I think it got too difficult, really for me to 0:19:08.000 --> 0:19:11.760 pretend to be normal. I just couldn't do it anymore. 0:19:12.440 --> 0:19:15.080 Part of me wish as I could have just pretended 0:19:15.600 --> 0:19:19.320 like everything was okay and I could be the high 0:19:19.320 --> 0:19:22.919 performing badass that everyone thought I was and I just 0:19:23.600 --> 0:19:28.880 could not. And once I admitted that to myself and said, 0:19:28.920 --> 0:19:31.240 you know, I might not be that person, but here's 0:19:31.240 --> 0:19:35.760 who I am instead, that's when life got a lot easier, 0:19:36.200 --> 0:19:40.400 more comfortable. And yeah, that's when my tribe came along 0:19:40.440 --> 0:19:43.760 and everyone was like, oh, us too, and prove that 0:19:43.800 --> 0:19:47.159 there is a different way to live this life that 0:19:47.280 --> 0:19:49.760 is just as valuable and just as viable. 0:19:50.480 --> 0:19:52.879 Yeah, And how much easier it gets when you stop 0:19:52.960 --> 0:19:56.800 pretending to be something you're not feeling. Yeah, and also 0:19:56.880 --> 0:20:00.439 understanding that it has to be safe enough to do that, right, Like, 0:20:00.560 --> 0:20:02.080 I think there's a lot of sort of like what's 0:20:02.080 --> 0:20:06.199 the pop psychology headline version of that is, like, speak 0:20:06.240 --> 0:20:10.040 your truth, claim your power. Well, it's not always safe 0:20:10.720 --> 0:20:11.439 to do that. 0:20:11.960 --> 0:20:14.000 Yeah, I mean I had to burn down my whole 0:20:14.080 --> 0:20:16.439 life to be able to do it. Yeah, basically I 0:20:16.480 --> 0:20:18.720 lost everything, and I was like, well, I've nothing left 0:20:18.720 --> 0:20:21.639 to lose, so I might as well do this. People 0:20:21.640 --> 0:20:24.600 are always like, yeah, the bravery thing. People are like, oh, 0:20:24.920 --> 0:20:27.800 you're so brave to have like shared your story, and 0:20:27.840 --> 0:20:32.199 I was like, there was nothing to lose anymore, so 0:20:32.240 --> 0:20:34.680 there was nothing brave about it. 0:20:34.840 --> 0:20:38.040 I have literally tried everything else possible, and now there 0:20:38.119 --> 0:20:40.359 is nothing and this is the only option left for me. 0:20:41.000 --> 0:20:44.520 Yeah yeah, this whole like like, let's turn it into 0:20:44.560 --> 0:20:50.359 a hero story. Well no, no, And I think also like, 0:20:50.440 --> 0:20:54.440 as somebody who has also put a deeply terrible personal 0:20:54.440 --> 0:20:56.720 story out in the world wrote a book that I 0:20:56.840 --> 0:20:58.960 needed when that happened, that didn't exist at that time. 0:20:59.000 --> 0:21:01.000 It's like, look at all the good you've done in 0:21:01.000 --> 0:21:05.120 the world, and this this conflation with yeah, sorry, I'll 0:21:05.119 --> 0:21:06.960 love that happened to you, but you were so brave 0:21:07.000 --> 0:21:09.159 and now you've done so much good in the world, 0:21:09.320 --> 0:21:12.040 and in a way, I'm really glad that happened to you. 0:21:12.840 --> 0:21:15.359 Right, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:21:15.520 --> 0:21:18.000 Has that horrendous narrative shown up on your doorstep? 0:21:18.280 --> 0:21:22.760 Honestly, not too much, but I did hear it. The 0:21:22.800 --> 0:21:25.760 other day. I heard somebody else say to someone with 0:21:25.800 --> 0:21:29.760 complex PTSD like that's what forged Like you're forged in fire, 0:21:30.080 --> 0:21:31.879 you know, Like, now you really need to be a 0:21:31.880 --> 0:21:32.399 great writer. 0:21:35.080 --> 0:21:40.000 I was like, no, yeah. Within a couple of days 0:21:40.000 --> 0:21:43.960 of my partner drowning, I was a psychotherapist before that happened, 0:21:44.040 --> 0:21:46.160 and people were literally coming up to me being you're 0:21:46.160 --> 0:21:48.679 going to be such a great therapist. After this, You're 0:21:48.720 --> 0:21:51.879 gonna help so many people. And I'm like, Okay, one, 0:21:52.200 --> 0:21:54.560 you're actually saying that I wasn't a good therapist before, 0:21:54.560 --> 0:21:56.520 and I actually needed a person to die in order 0:21:56.560 --> 0:21:59.440 to get better at it, and that his life is 0:21:59.480 --> 0:22:01.720 a fair tree for any people I might help later. 0:22:02.280 --> 0:22:05.320 And I just like, we have such a weird response 0:22:05.400 --> 0:22:08.439 to human pain and suffering that we really want it 0:22:08.480 --> 0:22:12.159 to be tidy. If we can't pretend it didn't happen, 0:22:12.480 --> 0:22:15.480 then we need there to be a night and shining armor, 0:22:15.720 --> 0:22:20.200 heroic moment where somebody is all healed and they've been 0:22:20.240 --> 0:22:24.000 of service to others in the world. And it's almost 0:22:24.040 --> 0:22:27.160 no wonder that people are hesitant to tell the truth 0:22:27.160 --> 0:22:28.080 about their own lives. 0:22:28.440 --> 0:22:28.640 Right. 0:22:29.119 --> 0:22:33.919 We're confused about what trauma means, what surviving and living 0:22:34.160 --> 0:22:38.720 with trauma or traumatic events means, and we're confused about 0:22:39.400 --> 0:22:43.320 the role of hardship and becoming sort of like better 0:22:43.440 --> 0:22:44.720 versions of ourselves. 0:22:44.720 --> 0:22:48.160 Like why there needs to be a quick transformation into 0:22:48.200 --> 0:22:51.960 positivity yep, when it's like no, this is fucked up 0:22:52.040 --> 0:22:54.760 and sad, and like, yeah, I mean it is a 0:22:54.800 --> 0:22:57.160 great thing that I've done this and I can and 0:22:57.240 --> 0:22:59.560 I can help people, and I'm proud of myself. But 0:22:59.640 --> 0:23:02.320 if like a magic fairy could show up tomorrow and 0:23:02.560 --> 0:23:05.600 actually I could have had a great childhood and not 0:23:05.720 --> 0:23:07.800 had any of this, Like, I would trade it all 0:23:07.920 --> 0:23:10.400 in a second. Great, I would take the magicary. 0:23:11.040 --> 0:23:13.640 Yep, I would take the magic fairy. Right. It's like, well, 0:23:13.640 --> 0:23:15.600 you wouldn't have all of these beautiful things in your life, 0:23:15.600 --> 0:23:17.800 but like, what beautiful things would I have instead? 0:23:18.119 --> 0:23:18.320 Yeah? 0:23:18.359 --> 0:23:21.520 Right? Like stop reducing this stuff to like your little 0:23:21.600 --> 0:23:24.320 formula to make everything work out, okay. And one of 0:23:24.359 --> 0:23:26.359 the things that I really love about the way that 0:23:26.400 --> 0:23:29.280 you consistently show up in all of the ways that 0:23:29.320 --> 0:23:34.200 I've seen you show up is like you're not healed right, 0:23:34.400 --> 0:23:38.840 Like you are not without coping mechanisms are not like right, 0:23:39.440 --> 0:23:42.640 But there's this. I think we've got the folks who 0:23:43.320 --> 0:23:46.159 read your words and read your story and see themselves 0:23:46.200 --> 0:23:51.919 and get it that finding ways to live alongside this 0:23:52.080 --> 0:23:54.480 in ways that reduce the friction in your heart and 0:23:54.520 --> 0:23:57.880 your mind and relationships are like yes. And other folks 0:23:57.920 --> 0:24:01.640 who maybe don't see themselves haven't yet seen themselves reflected 0:24:01.680 --> 0:24:05.000 in that story. They're like, but you're all better now, right. 0:24:05.560 --> 0:24:08.840