Speaker 1: I think it got too difficult really for me to
Speaker 1: pretend to be normal. I just couldn't do it anymore.
Speaker 1: Part of me wish as I could have just pretended
Speaker 1: like everything was okay and I could be the high
Speaker 1: performing badass that everyone thought I was, and I just
Speaker 1: could not. And once I admitted that to myself and said,
Speaker 1: you know, I might not be that person, but here's
Speaker 1: who I am instead, that's when life got a lot easier,
Speaker 1: more comfortable. And yeah, that's when my tribe came along
Speaker 1: and everyone was like, oh, us too, and prove that
Speaker 1: there is a different way to live this life that
Speaker 1: is just as valuable and just as viable.
Speaker 2: This is here after, And I'm your host, Megan Divine,
Speaker 2: author of the best selling book It's Okay that You're
Speaker 2: Not Okay. Each week I bring you conversations with authors
Speaker 2: and activists and other really cool people, all exploring what
Speaker 2: it means to be a fully feeling human in an
Speaker 2: often difficult world. Now, if you've lived through horrific trauma
Speaker 2: or abuse, is it really fair of us to say
Speaker 2: that the ways you've learned to cope with that trauma
Speaker 2: or abuse are bad? Like bad? In air? Quotes here
Speaker 2: or to use clinical speak to call your coping skills maladaptive.
Speaker 2: This week on hereafter Stephanie Foot, author of What My
Speaker 2: Bones Know. She joins me to talk about complex PTSD
Speaker 2: and the ways we pathologize human responses to trauma. You'll
Speaker 2: also hear how claiming your own messy complex coping mechanisms
Speaker 2: can help you build a community that sees you and
Speaker 2: loves you. All of that and more coming up after
Speaker 2: this first break Before we get started, two quick notes.
Speaker 2: This episode is an encore performance. I am on break
Speaker 2: working on a giant new project, so we're releasing a
Speaker 2: mix of our favorite episodes from the first three seasons
Speaker 2: of the show. Some of these conversations you might have
Speaker 2: missed in your original seasons, and some shows just truly
Speaker 2: deserve multiple listens so that you capture all of the goodness.
Speaker 2: Second note, while we cover a lot of emotional, relational
Speaker 2: territory and our time here together, this show is not
Speaker 2: a substitute for skilled support with a license memntal health
Speaker 2: provider or for professional supervision related to your work. Take
Speaker 2: what you learn here, take your thoughts and your reflections
Speaker 2: out into your world and talk about it. Hi, friends, Now,
Speaker 2: as a survivor of trauma myself. I am really sensitive
Speaker 2: about asking my guests to summarize the things they've lived through.
Speaker 2: I've been on that media circuit where you just talk
Speaker 2: about some of the worst moments of your life over
Speaker 2: and over and over again. Like answering these deeply personal
Speaker 2: questions about horrendous, difficult things over and over. It's just
Speaker 2: it's weird. So whenever I can, I try to shift
Speaker 2: the burden of telling the horrendous story off of my
Speaker 2: guest and front loaded here into my introduction to the show.
Speaker 2: And that's what I've done today. Stephanie Fu grew up
Speaker 2: in San Jose, California, surrounded by manicured landscapes and high
Speaker 2: achieving immigrant families. From the outside, her family looked like
Speaker 2: that coveted American dream scenario, but on the inside it
Speaker 2: was very much a nightmare. Stephanie's parents regularly beat her
Speaker 2: and emotionally abused her, before eventually abandoning her when she
Speaker 2: was sixteen. In twenty eighteen, Stephanie was diagnosed with complex PTSD,
Speaker 2: a little understood and little studied form of post traumatic
Speaker 2: stress disorder that can occur from repeated long term trauma.
Speaker 2: Stephanie's best selling book, What My Bones Note tells the
Speaker 2: story of that intense childhood abuse and the coping patterns
Speaker 2: that helped her survive what she had to survive. The
Speaker 2: book is also a story of intergenerational trauma, immigration, and
Speaker 2: understanding the roots of violence, while not excusing the violence itself.
Speaker 2: Just that last bit is such a super important point,
Speaker 2: and I'm really glad that we got to talk about
Speaker 2: it a little bit in this conversation now. Books on
Speaker 2: complex PTSD, like many other diagnoses or conditions that we have,
Speaker 2: books on complex PTSD can be really dry and honestly
Speaker 2: kind of clueless and cruel in their descriptions about people
Speaker 2: who carry long term behaviors or patterns of behavior due
Speaker 2: to the trauma and abuse they survived. So you'll hear
Speaker 2: it in our conversation today. But Stephanie really wants you
Speaker 2: all to know that her book is written by a
Speaker 2: trauma survivor for other trauma survivors, not just child aboose,
Speaker 2: but war and other kind of repeated horrible experiences. She
Speaker 2: wants you to know that the book focuses on healing,
Speaker 2: but the kind of healing that can only come when
Speaker 2: you respect the ways that each person managed to survive
Speaker 2: what they went through. I promise you that's going to
Speaker 2: make more sense as you listen to the show. But
Speaker 2: if you're haunted by any type of trauma or you
Speaker 2: know someone who is, this conversation with Stephanie fu is
Speaker 2: a great introduction to complex PTSD and the work of survivorship.
Speaker 2: So let's get into it. Content notes everybody, This episode
Speaker 2: contains non graphic reference to abuse and trauma, and it
Speaker 2: includes a small amount of swearing, well.
Speaker 1: Hi, hello, thank you for having me.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I sat down and read your book cover to
Speaker 2: cover over the course of like eight hours on Sunday.
Speaker 1: Oh wow fast.
Speaker 2: So one of the things that I would really love
Speaker 2: to talk about throwing it out there is like you
Speaker 2: write a lot about how we pathologize responses to trauma.
Speaker 2: Mm hmm, no matter what happens to you, like the
Speaker 2: healthy responses to be completely unaffected, like rise above and
Speaker 2: always present as really chill. There's a section I particularly
Speaker 2: liked in your book when you talk about meeting Joey
Speaker 2: for the first time and you're like, I am pretending
Speaker 2: to be completely non anxious and chill and all of
Speaker 2: these things, and he's like Okay, but tell me what's
Speaker 2: actually happening. Yeah, so, can we talk about that like that,
Speaker 2: the ways that we pathologize responses to trauma.
Speaker 1: Yeah so, I think, you know, just the word trauma itself,
Speaker 1: I think is pathologized. I think there's this understanding that
Speaker 1: trauma itself, experiencing it makes you broken. I remember reading
Speaker 1: this Vox article where they were saying, you know, be
Speaker 1: careful about how you use the word trauma, because if
Speaker 1: you describe yourself as traumatized, that is like that you
Speaker 1: are broken and helpless and like you're robbing yourself resiliency
Speaker 1: because you're basically admitting that you know there's no hope
Speaker 1: for yourself and you're giving up.
Speaker 2: Oh my god.
Speaker 1: And I was like, wait, what whoo? Why would you
Speaker 1: define I mean, yeah, I mean I guess it's a
Speaker 1: problem to say that you are traumatized if that's how
Speaker 1: you're going to define trauma. But I don't think trauma
Speaker 1: needs to be defined in that way. I think the
Speaker 1: fact of the matter is that we all experience some
Speaker 1: form of trauma, and trauma is a scientific adaptation to
Speaker 1: keep us alive. Like if you're bitten by a snake,
Speaker 1: you're going to be afraid of snakes. If you touch
Speaker 1: a hot stove, you're going to be really careful around
Speaker 1: a hot stove, Like it's basically your brain wiring threat
Speaker 1: and saying like, hey, this is something that's really dangerous
Speaker 1: that could kill you, so be vigilant around the thing
Speaker 1: that could kill you. And you know, for some of us,
Speaker 1: those triggers like being afraid of snakes are maybe more
Speaker 1: sensible than others, not sensible, but more like manageable than others.
Speaker 1: Like being afraid of anyone who's using a loud voice.
Speaker 1: You know, Yeah, being afraid of someone who's yelling. You're
Speaker 1: going to encounter that much more in life. That's harder
Speaker 1: to avoid, right than snakes.
Speaker 2: I think it's really interesting that like the self definition
Speaker 2: of trauma, right, that we have this idea that it's
Speaker 2: not the incident of trauma that's the problem, it's allowing
Speaker 2: yourself to identify as traumatized. I think we have that
Speaker 2: as like, oh, you're being a victim and you're never
Speaker 2: going to be able to get out of this, Like
Speaker 2: it's such a weird like it's so weird, it's so weird,
Speaker 2: like that that whole nothing bad should happen to you.
Speaker 2: If it does, your your prime directive is to be
Speaker 2: resilient and unaffected, and don't even name it as a
Speaker 2: bad thing, because that's almost like invoking badness if you
Speaker 2: call the bad thing bad.
Speaker 1: Exactly. I think it's completely missing the fact that trauma
Speaker 1: can be an adaptation. There's lots of fears and responses
Speaker 1: to trauma that actually can be healthy, that actually can
Speaker 1: make us sort of extremely useful in a variety of
Speaker 1: different situations. And it's also just not a very empathetic
Speaker 1: or kind place to come from considering that all of
Speaker 1: us have some form of trauma. If you're going to
Speaker 1: judge everyone for their trauma response instead of stepping in
Speaker 1: and saying like, hey, are you having a trauma response?
Speaker 1: Do you need a minute? What do you need? How
Speaker 1: can I help you? How can I support you in this,
Speaker 1: there's going to be a lot more conflict, judgment, and
Speaker 1: refusal to make space. And I think it's very ablest
Speaker 1: and like, what is this perfect, untouched population of people anyway,
Speaker 1: honestly that they've never gone through anything hard?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think it's like that common default
Speaker 2: that everybody is pretending to be okay when We're not okay,
Speaker 2: which is basically like the entire reason for my work
Speaker 2: and this show is to start talking about how hard
Speaker 2: it is to be human and the stuff we go through,
Speaker 2: and that we adapt to the things that we go through.
Speaker 2: And that's not the same as resilienced or overcoming, but
Speaker 2: it's more like shit happens to you, and some of
Speaker 2: the ways that you survive that and deal with that
Speaker 2: are awesome in the right context, and some of those
Speaker 2: ways are really difficult, but they're not wrong.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it's the judgment of that that makes it
Speaker 1: impossible to live with, not the challenge itself.
Speaker 2: Right, Stephanie, can you give us a description of complex
Speaker 2: PTSD and how that's different than I don't know, like
Speaker 2: the post traumatic stress disorder that people might know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so PTSD you can get quote unquote traditional PTSD
Speaker 1: from a singular traumatic event. So let's say you're hit
Speaker 1: by a car that can give you PTSD. Complex PTSD
Speaker 1: is kind of like if you were hit by that
Speaker 1: car every week for three years. It's when the trauma
Speaker 1: happens over and over and over, and unless you are
Speaker 1: like a tremendously unlucky individual, the only way that you're
Speaker 1: probably getting complex PTSD is from a difficult relationship with
Speaker 1: other people. So having an abuser, suffering from child abuse,
Speaker 1: domestic violence, or living in a war zone. So complex
Speaker 1: PTSD in particular tends to really erode people's trust of
Speaker 1: other human beings and make relationships a little bit different.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, when that is what you absorb, right, Our
Speaker 2: relationships tell us about the world, and when your relationships
Speaker 2: to you that the world is an unsafe place, then
Speaker 2: the world is an unsafe place, and we learn lots
Speaker 2: of different ways to survive that place. When I am
Speaker 2: having a conversation with an author who has a book out,
Speaker 2: like I don't want to give the book away because
Speaker 2: I really really want people to read the book. We
Speaker 2: were talking earlier that like my perfectionist overwork tendencies. I'm like,
Speaker 2: I'm basically going to develop a book report on your
Speaker 2: book for everybody, but like, no, stop it, right. A
Speaker 2: book is a sort of a one way conversation and
Speaker 2: the sparks that we gather from that, like, that's that's
Speaker 2: where that's really interesting to me. There was actually a
Speaker 2: tweet that you had out about what My Bones Know
Speaker 2: is now going into its six printing in five months.
Speaker 2: Thank you to the therapists and teachers who have been
Speaker 2: assigning it, the caretakers who have been studying it, and
Speaker 2: most of all the survivors for opening your hearts to it.
Speaker 2: This is like the dream, right, the dream here of
Speaker 2: taking something deeply personal, deeply painful. It's not easy to
Speaker 2: write about these really intense personal experiences put them out
Speaker 2: into the world for public display, inter section. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: that knowing that doing that means something to people. Yeah, yeah, right,
Speaker 2: Can we talk about that a little bit, that that
Speaker 2: interesting zone of here's this really intimate personal stuff that
Speaker 2: was probably not very easy to write either, certainly wasn't
Speaker 2: easy to live and putting it out in the world
Speaker 2: and seeing the impact of that. What's that been like
Speaker 2: for you? To see the impact of your story in
Speaker 2: the world.
Speaker 1: It's been tremendously meaningful, because well, when I was first diagnosed,
Speaker 1: there was nothing like my book out there. Everything that
Speaker 1: I read was very clinical. Most of it was not
Speaker 1: meant for people like me to read. It was clear
Speaker 1: that it wasn't. A lot of it was not made
Speaker 1: for people actually with complex PTSD to read, because they
Speaker 1: would talk shit about us. They'd be like complex people
Speaker 1: with complex PTSD are so difficult to treat. They are
Speaker 1: you know, they are burdens, they are pain in the ass,
Speaker 1: they are whatever. They would say all of these things,
Speaker 1: and I was like, did you think that I'd be
Speaker 1: too stupid to read this? Like what? I don't understand?
Speaker 1: A lot of it was very pathologizing, a lot of
Speaker 1: it was very dry, just not very fun to write. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And you know, I was a person who was coming
Speaker 1: from a storytelling background. Obviously, it told stories for ten years,
Speaker 1: first person stories, other people's first person stories. And I
Speaker 1: realized the impact that had for empathy, for a narrative,
Speaker 1: for feeling less alone. You know, I'd helped so many
Speaker 1: other groups feel less alone by showcasing these important stories,
Speaker 1: but never really my own. And so when I was
Speaker 1: reading all of these books and recognizing that, you know,
Speaker 1: that first person story just did not exist, and it
Speaker 1: made me feel so isolated and freakish and damaged, I
Speaker 1: guess and I knew that if I healed from this
Speaker 1: in any kind of way, I would need to write
Speaker 1: about it, because that story was just needed. I didn't
Speaker 1: want anybody else to feel as completely isolated as I
Speaker 1: did after diagnosis, And I always told myself in this
Speaker 1: process that like, my story did not represent everyone with
Speaker 1: complex PTSD. I mean, it's obviously a spectrum. We all
Speaker 1: have different symptoms and experiences. And I told myself that
Speaker 1: if one person benefited from the book, then the four
Speaker 1: years of creating it would be worth it, It'd be okay.
Speaker 1: So to have the response be so overwhelmingly positive, to
Speaker 1: get like dozens of messages every day saying like you
Speaker 1: got it, that's exactly what it's like, it's been really wonderful.
Speaker 1: And it's made me realize how truly needed this was
Speaker 1: and to be able to give words to people for this. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's been great on a couple
Speaker 1: different levels. I think first of all, it's made me
Speaker 1: feel less alone because I didn't really have many people
Speaker 1: in my life with complex PTSD, and now I see
Speaker 1: people with all different backgrounds and careers, from herbalists to
Speaker 1: doctors to like, you know, farmers, all messaging me saying like,
Speaker 1: your experience is my experience. Certainly it makes me feel
Speaker 1: a lot less freakish myself and apparently have helped other
Speaker 1: people do that. And yeah, it also give some sort
Speaker 1: of meaning and power to like the true anguish that
Speaker 1: I've had to experience, and it gives some affirmation to
Speaker 1: that self loathing that I've suffered from for so long.
Speaker 1: That I don't deserve to be here. You know, that
Speaker 1: I'm too broken to be here, that I don't fit
Speaker 1: in with everyone else. I guess those feelings and more important,
Speaker 1: like learning how to corral those feelings has actually made
Speaker 1: me sort of able to shine a light for those
Speaker 1: who come behind me and has shown me that I
Speaker 1: really do have a place of importance here, that we
Speaker 1: all have a place of importance of being the healers
Speaker 1: who can lead the way.
Speaker 2: It's so counterintuitive or counter to the ways that we
Speaker 2: talk about quote unquote mental health in this culture. Right
Speaker 2: that if you say or if you're feeling alone in something,
Speaker 2: or you're feeling like a freak, you're feeling like the
Speaker 2: only one who's experiencing these things, then your call to
Speaker 2: perform harder, right, perform like everyone else a little bit
Speaker 2: harder to fit in. If you're feeling lonely, you have
Speaker 2: to be more like everybody else. And the reverse of
Speaker 2: that is actually what's accurate. The willingness to tell the
Speaker 2: truth about who you are and where you are and
Speaker 2: what you're feeling and what you're experiencing that stripped down,
Speaker 2: not bright, shiny package truth like that is how not
Speaker 2: only you feel less alone, but others feel lesson. It's
Speaker 2: like how we find each other.
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, let's get back to the.
Speaker 2: Writer, an all around awesome person, Stephanie Fuh. There's a
Speaker 2: site called Glow in the Woods that was started by
Speaker 2: I'm going to space on her last name, but her
Speaker 2: first name is Kate and one of the descriptions it's
Speaker 2: a like a crowdsourced blog community platform for people who
Speaker 2: have experienced baby death, and she says, I envisioned a
Speaker 2: glow in the Woods, a place where all of the
Speaker 2: medusas could come and take their hats off, this place
Speaker 2: where nobody's afraid of your snakes because they have their own. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and I really see that power of storytelling, and not
Speaker 2: just the power of story, but the power of telling
Speaker 2: the truth.
Speaker 1: I think it got too difficult, really for me to
Speaker 1: pretend to be normal. I just couldn't do it anymore.
Speaker 1: Part of me wish as I could have just pretended
Speaker 1: like everything was okay and I could be the high
Speaker 1: performing badass that everyone thought I was and I just
Speaker 1: could not. And once I admitted that to myself and said,
Speaker 1: you know, I might not be that person, but here's
Speaker 1: who I am instead, that's when life got a lot easier,
Speaker 1: more comfortable. And yeah, that's when my tribe came along
Speaker 1: and everyone was like, oh, us too, and prove that
Speaker 1: there is a different way to live this life that
Speaker 1: is just as valuable and just as viable.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And how much easier it gets when you stop
Speaker 2: pretending to be something you're not feeling. Yeah, and also
Speaker 2: understanding that it has to be safe enough to do that, right, Like,
Speaker 2: I think there's a lot of sort of like what's
Speaker 2: the pop psychology headline version of that is, like, speak
Speaker 2: your truth, claim your power. Well, it's not always safe
Speaker 2: to do that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I had to burn down my whole
Speaker 1: life to be able to do it. Yeah, basically I
Speaker 1: lost everything, and I was like, well, I've nothing left
Speaker 1: to lose, so I might as well do this. People
Speaker 1: are always like, yeah, the bravery thing. People are like, oh,
Speaker 1: you're so brave to have like shared your story, and
Speaker 1: I was like, there was nothing to lose anymore, so
Speaker 1: there was nothing brave about it.
Speaker 2: I have literally tried everything else possible, and now there
Speaker 2: is nothing and this is the only option left for me.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, this whole like like, let's turn it into
Speaker 2: a hero story. Well no, no, And I think also like,
Speaker 2: as somebody who has also put a deeply terrible personal
Speaker 2: story out in the world wrote a book that I
Speaker 2: needed when that happened, that didn't exist at that time.
Speaker 2: It's like, look at all the good you've done in
Speaker 2: the world, and this this conflation with yeah, sorry, I'll
Speaker 2: love that happened to you, but you were so brave
Speaker 2: and now you've done so much good in the world,
Speaker 2: and in a way, I'm really glad that happened to you.
Speaker 1: Right, oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: Has that horrendous narrative shown up on your doorstep?
Speaker 1: Honestly, not too much, but I did hear it. The
Speaker 1: other day. I heard somebody else say to someone with
Speaker 1: complex PTSD like that's what forged Like you're forged in fire,
Speaker 1: you know, Like, now you really need to be a
Speaker 1: great writer.
Speaker 2: I was like, no, yeah. Within a couple of days
Speaker 2: of my partner drowning, I was a psychotherapist before that happened,
Speaker 2: and people were literally coming up to me being you're
Speaker 2: going to be such a great therapist. After this, You're
Speaker 2: gonna help so many people. And I'm like, Okay, one,
Speaker 2: you're actually saying that I wasn't a good therapist before,
Speaker 2: and I actually needed a person to die in order
Speaker 2: to get better at it, and that his life is
Speaker 2: a fair tree for any people I might help later.
Speaker 2: And I just like, we have such a weird response
Speaker 2: to human pain and suffering that we really want it
Speaker 2: to be tidy. If we can't pretend it didn't happen,
Speaker 2: then we need there to be a night and shining armor,
Speaker 2: heroic moment where somebody is all healed and they've been
Speaker 2: of service to others in the world. And it's almost
Speaker 2: no wonder that people are hesitant to tell the truth
Speaker 2: about their own lives.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: We're confused about what trauma means, what surviving and living
Speaker 2: with trauma or traumatic events means, and we're confused about
Speaker 2: the role of hardship and becoming sort of like better
Speaker 2: versions of ourselves.
Speaker 1: Like why there needs to be a quick transformation into
Speaker 1: positivity yep, when it's like no, this is fucked up
Speaker 1: and sad, and like, yeah, I mean it is a
Speaker 1: great thing that I've done this and I can and
Speaker 1: I can help people, and I'm proud of myself. But
Speaker 1: if like a magic fairy could show up tomorrow and
Speaker 1: actually I could have had a great childhood and not
Speaker 1: had any of this, Like, I would trade it all
Speaker 1: in a second. Great, I would take the magicary.
Speaker 2: Yep, I would take the magic fairy. Right. It's like, well,
Speaker 2: you wouldn't have all of these beautiful things in your life,
Speaker 2: but like, what beautiful things would I have instead?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Right? Like stop reducing this stuff to like your little
Speaker 2: formula to make everything work out, okay. And one of
Speaker 2: the things that I really love about the way that
Speaker 2: you consistently show up in all of the ways that
Speaker 2: I've seen you show up is like you're not healed right,
Speaker 2: Like you are not without coping mechanisms are not like right,
Speaker 2: But there's this. I think we've got the folks who
Speaker 2: read your words and read your story and see themselves
Speaker 2: and get it that finding ways to live alongside this
Speaker 2: in ways that reduce the friction in your heart and
Speaker 2: your mind and relationships are like yes. And other folks
Speaker 2: who maybe don't see themselves haven't yet seen themselves reflected
Speaker 2: in that story. They're like, but you're all better now, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know if anyone is like you're all
Speaker 1: better now, anyone who knows me certainly is it. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I try to be very clear in the especially in
Speaker 1: the last pages of the book, like it's a happy ending,
Speaker 1: like I've learned to live with this in a way
Speaker 1: where I can feel real joy and make a lot
Speaker 1: that I'm alive, and I there's ways that I can
Speaker 1: use what I've gotten out of this in productive like
Speaker 1: ways to help people. But every day there's still at
Speaker 1: least one thing that really sucks about having complex PTSD,
Speaker 1: So I don't know what are you gonna do? And
Speaker 1: there's still days where you know, I mean I have
Speaker 1: I have, like written in this book, all these great
Speaker 1: coping mechanisms, but doesn't mean that I use the coping
Speaker 1: mechanisms every day. Like sure, I like like I'm much
Speaker 1: better whether they and I know they're there, and like
Speaker 1: knowing that they're there gives me hope. And still there's
Speaker 1: days when I just yell at myself, like stop being crazy,
Speaker 1: you're being crazy, stop it, And that's super healthy.
Speaker 2: Is so healthy. As I said in the beginning, when
Speaker 2: we were when we were talking, like I noticed recognize
Speaker 2: what I was doing when I was preparing for our
Speaker 2: conversation and literally yelling at myself stop being fucking crazy.
Speaker 2: And you know, those days, Those days are what happens.
Speaker 2: It's not that you suddenly reach this finish line and
Speaker 2: you find a purpose for your story and your words
Speaker 2: and then everything is fine, Like, Nope, still still in
Speaker 2: the trenches over here, still in the trenches with everybody else.
Speaker 1: But also, what kind of like psychopath? Yeah, what kind
Speaker 1: of psychopath is just happy all the time? You're definitely
Speaker 1: not wrong with you if that is the case.
Speaker 2: I love, like, like, let's do the midrash on the
Speaker 2: redefinition of what health means. Like health to me means
Speaker 2: when you are having a shit day, You were having
Speaker 2: a shit day, and you don't have to pretend to
Speaker 2: be doing anything else. Yeah, that performative positivity is pathology,
Speaker 2: which should totally be a bumper sticker if that was
Speaker 2: not an ecological terror to make bumper stickers.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, like, I think it's like a diet, right,
Speaker 1: you need a little bit of fat and sugar and
Speaker 1: carbs and meat and veggies. If you're only eating like
Speaker 1: one thing, you die. So I think that's kind of
Speaker 1: how I see. Mental health is like you have to
Speaker 1: make sure that you have a lot of you're experiencing
Speaker 1: the full range of human emotion. Yeah, you know, if
Speaker 1: your anger is so big that it's blocking out the joy,
Speaker 1: then yeah, you should get that in check. If your
Speaker 1: joy is so big that it's blocking out the ability
Speaker 1: to feel sad also a problem.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the timeshare of the emotional psyche, right, Like
Speaker 2: we want all of the circuits able to fire, and
Speaker 2: that one doesn't cancel the other out. I think we
Speaker 2: do that weird math of like you can't be grateful
Speaker 2: and sad at the same time.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, humans are weird. Humans are weird. I mean we're
Speaker 2: terrified of emotion, right, Like we are a culture that
Speaker 2: is terrified of big emotion and so like, of course
Speaker 2: we have all of these weird little rituals to make
Speaker 2: sure that happiness is the only thing that people see,
Speaker 2: and it's just it's not helping anything. And I think
Speaker 2: one of the big three lines I see not just
Speaker 2: in your book, but like you're writing and writing on
Speaker 2: journalism and racism and climate emergencies, like all of these
Speaker 2: really difficult things. The through line that I see in
Speaker 2: all of that stuff is the power of acknowledgement, right,
Speaker 2: just being able to tell the truth about the situation
Speaker 2: at hand and not even necessarily having a solution. But
Speaker 2: that that acknowledgment of the truth in all of these
Speaker 2: really deep, complex, difficult things like that is not nothing.
Speaker 1: I would agree with you, but I would say that,
Speaker 1: like the through line with all of these things actually
Speaker 1: is agency. I think with the climate stuff, with the
Speaker 1: racism stuff, with the mental health stuff, and with everything.
Speaker 1: And it stems from my PTSD honestly, because you know,
Speaker 1: growing up, I always needed to have some sort of
Speaker 1: control over the situation, Like the situation could very easily
Speaker 1: get out of control and endanger my life and the
Speaker 1: lives around me. So I always needed to like be
Speaker 1: the mom and keep everything peaceful and keep everything unlock.
Speaker 1: But I also think it's a deeply human desire that
Speaker 1: like having some form of agency gives us so much
Speaker 1: peace and a feeling of control and a feeling of
Speaker 1: well well being. And I think it's really difficult to
Speaker 1: have those when you know the world is falling apart
Speaker 1: and looking at the news, are looking at the climate,
Speaker 1: and so I try to find small ways in which
Speaker 1: people can claim that agency. For themselves to help themselves
Speaker 1: and the people around them. And I think that that
Speaker 1: is a really significant way to feel those that broad
Speaker 1: spectrum of emotions and go from feeling just anger to
Speaker 1: feeling anger and joy or just fear, to fear and
Speaker 1: satisfaction and grief. You know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm pausing because, like, I'm such a big fan
Speaker 2: of agency and sovereignty. I feel like that's something that
Speaker 2: I bring up all the time, that people have the
Speaker 2: right to be who they are and feel how they
Speaker 2: feel and need what they need and to be able
Speaker 2: to have some say in how their own lives unfold,
Speaker 2: and that loss of agency, that loss of sovereignty is
Speaker 2: a source of so much suffering.
Speaker 1: Yeah, dehumanization. And I think agency is the heart of hope, right,
Speaker 1: once you feel like you have some element of control,
Speaker 1: it allows you to feel that things can get better,
Speaker 1: It keeps you energized, and it is the antidote to despair.
Speaker 2: So that's I love that.
Speaker 1: Okay, So that's a Robin Wallkimer quote. That's not me.
Speaker 2: Her book is actually propping up my laptop, right, So
Speaker 2: I love that you went there because season two of
Speaker 2: the show for me is actually like where are people
Speaker 2: finding hope because I am definitely having some moments of
Speaker 2: like we are screwed or I'm screwed because I'm not
Speaker 2: able to find any like hope or agency in anything.
Speaker 2: And so I love that this, like naturally, this is
Speaker 2: where you go. Like we didn't get into it in
Speaker 2: our conversation. I can I'll leave that for folks to
Speaker 2: read in the book. But you you wrote into your parents'
Speaker 2: histories and your family's histories and that whole history of
Speaker 2: violence and oppression and colonialism and war and what that
Speaker 2: does to a family system and how that trauma and
Speaker 2: pain and violence gets passed down. And you've also written
Speaker 2: about racism and racism and journalism and how people of
Speaker 2: color experience a lot more saturation of violence than white folks, right.
Speaker 2: And this knowledge of violence upon violence upon violence, it's like,
Speaker 2: once you start to look for it, it's easy to
Speaker 2: see it everywhere. It's easy to see the tendrils of historical,
Speaker 2: intergenerational cultural violence showing up in so many places. You
Speaker 2: do this so beautifully and so skillfully in your book,
Speaker 2: like you look at what made your parents behave and
Speaker 2: act in the way that they did. You look at
Speaker 2: that without collapsing into oh I get it now, and
Speaker 2: so the sort of like sentimental music swelling absolution you
Speaker 2: don't even touch Like I literally cheered when I read
Speaker 2: that part of your book, So thank you. I think
Speaker 2: two things here. One understanding why something a person, a family, system,
Speaker 2: a culture, an organization, whatever. Understanding why they are the violent,
Speaker 2: oppressive creatures they are does not absolve them of the
Speaker 2: responsibility to not act out of their histories in the
Speaker 2: violent ways that they're doing. Right, we can hold both
Speaker 2: things at the same time. I think that we get
Speaker 2: caught in this like, oh, I understand them, so I
Speaker 2: have to excuse them, like I'm just gonna roll over
Speaker 2: and PM myself. No, Hello, you can understand what created
Speaker 2: a person and still hold them accountable for their actions.
Speaker 2: I think that's a really tricky point that not a
Speaker 2: lot of people pick up. And the other thing, coming
Speaker 2: back to what you just described about where you find hope.
Speaker 2: It's like when you start looking for the roots of violence,
Speaker 2: like there's no end to that. You start seeing it everywhere,
Speaker 2: and that can be really really overwhelming and pressing.
Speaker 1: There's no end to goodness either, Yes, you look for it, Yay,
Speaker 1: that is true, There's no end to kindness and love
Speaker 1: if you're looking for it, and like healing, and like
Speaker 1: if you look at the long arc of history, I mean,
Speaker 1: it's generally been getting a lot better than it wasn't
Speaker 1: like the fifteen hundreds. Gotta say, so, you know, whereas
Speaker 1: that's true, I mean, all I have to do is
Speaker 1: like look at the Zoomers, honestly, and the empathy and
Speaker 1: like the respect that they have for their feelings and
Speaker 1: like the respect that they have for others who are
Speaker 1: different from them. And I'm like, you know, things aren't
Speaker 1: getting better, I think, And yeah, I feel angry at
Speaker 1: Boomers a whole lot. But you know, history isn't over.
Speaker 1: History is not done. Culture is not done. Culture isn't static.
Speaker 1: It's constantly changing and evolving. And I think there will
Speaker 1: always be violence. Look, I'm not like naive enough to
Speaker 1: think that there is not going to be violence, that
Speaker 1: there's not going to be grief and death and loss.
Speaker 1: But I certainly think that I can support others in
Speaker 1: their quest for happiness and be supported better and yeah,
Speaker 1: trying to end the cycles as best as we can.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that sounds hopeful. There's great to be hopeful, hopeful, hopeful,
Speaker 2: but not Pollyanna, We're not naive. I guess is the
Speaker 2: word that you use there's allowed to be helpful about honestly, Like.
Speaker 1: I think there is that. You know, the zoom the Zoomers,
Speaker 1: they have this thing, you know, Okay Boomer, they have
Speaker 1: Okay Doomer Like okay Doomer, Like you're gonna say that
Speaker 1: like the world is on fire and everything's dying and whatever,
Speaker 1: like the whole world is going to end. Well, fuck you,
Speaker 1: because you know they're fifteen and they have to write
Speaker 1: to a full and thriving life, and so yeah, it's
Speaker 1: kind of shitty for us to be like, yeah, the
Speaker 1: world's on fire, everything's gonna die within thirty years without
Speaker 1: giving them an out or another option. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So I feel like this is a good Like I
Speaker 2: can keep talking about hope and despair, an agency and
Speaker 2: action forever and ever and ever and ever, but I
Speaker 2: feel like this is probably a good place to wrap
Speaker 2: us up. Do you want to tell the people where
Speaker 2: they can find you and anything else you want them
Speaker 2: to know about you or about trees?
Speaker 1: Sure? I am on Instagram at foufoufu, I'm on Twitter
Speaker 1: at I'm on the radio. My book is wherever find
Speaker 1: books are sold, Call what my Bones Know and come
Speaker 1: during the community where it is safe to have complex BTSD.
Speaker 1: And in this world that I am envisioning and dreaming
Speaker 1: up and I'm hopeful for, we can learn to take
Speaker 1: care of each other and be more accepting of our
Speaker 1: traumas and learn how to repair really thoughtfully when we
Speaker 1: have ruptures that come from this violence. I don't know
Speaker 1: if that was the best, like most meaningful, profound thing
Speaker 1: to end on. That's I think I came to.
Speaker 2: I think that's a beautiful thing to end on. Right,
Speaker 2: we didn't get a chance to talk about repair and
Speaker 2: rupture that All of that stuff is in your book.
Speaker 2: If we treated complex PTSD like a disability, this would
Speaker 2: mean advocating for the things that we need, learning how
Speaker 2: to do repair after a rupture. I think those are
Speaker 2: actually good cliffhangers for us, because those are all in
Speaker 2: the book. And your vision of a kinder, more honest,
Speaker 2: more hopeful world is a really clear and beautiful and
Speaker 2: powerful storytelling place to end and I appreciate it, and
Speaker 2: I'm sure other folks will too, So well, thank you
Speaker 2: so much.
Speaker 1: This has been a really optimistic, pleasant little romp. It's
Speaker 1: so nice to exit a conversation about trauma, not failing,
Speaker 1: like you just had to go through and recall all
Speaker 1: the crappy things about your life and instead be like, ah, flowers, flowers, trees, agency,
Speaker 1: and hope woo for everyone.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, no, you already wrote the whole book. You
Speaker 2: don't need to relive it every time you talk to somebody. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's what's reading is for. All right, I'm going to
Speaker 2: sign us off, folks. We will be right back after
Speaker 2: this break back in a second. Each week, I leave
Speaker 2: you with some questions to carry with you until we
Speaker 2: meet again. This season is all about hope, real like
Speaker 2: functional hope rooted in what are honestly some pretty difficult things.
Speaker 2: Now you'll notice that Stephanie and I referenced trees and
Speaker 2: flowers as we wrapped up our conversation on complex PTSD
Speaker 2: and on hope. We had this whole side conversation on
Speaker 2: how she made it is her own climate despair, how
Speaker 2: she finds hope inside daily action in the service of trees.
Speaker 2: It was a really awesome conversation, but it didn't quite
Speaker 2: fit with the things that we've been talking about previously,
Speaker 2: So that whole bonus conversation is going to come out
Speaker 2: later this week. It is really sweet and has its
Speaker 2: own hope inside it, So watch for that one. Although
Speaker 2: better yet, just follow the show wherever you listen to podcasts.
Speaker 2: That way, you will not miss anything. Now, what I
Speaker 2: am personally taking with me from this week's episode is
Speaker 2: a bit more kindness to myself about the ways I've
Speaker 2: learned to survive the difficult things in my own life.
Speaker 2: And it's so easy to be annoyed, especially as a
Speaker 2: therapist and a like obsessively self reflective person, Like, it's
Speaker 2: so easy to be annoyed with the weird ways I
Speaker 2: act sometimes or the weird ways I think sometimes, And
Speaker 2: I'm like, ah, after all this time, like you still
Speaker 2: are using those old coping skills that really aren't applicable.
Speaker 2: I mean, I have great coping skills, I just don't
Speaker 2: use them all the time. And I think I can
Speaker 2: be a little bit kinder to myself on those days
Speaker 2: that I'm not exactly using the very best tools in
Speaker 2: my collection. That's what I'm going to take from this
Speaker 2: conversation today. What parts of the conversation stuck with you today?
Speaker 2: What parts made you think about something in a new
Speaker 2: way or see something differently in your life or in
Speaker 2: somebody else's. Were there parts of Stephanie's story, especially those
Speaker 2: parts about letting herself be seen? Were there parts of
Speaker 2: that story that helped you feel seen. Everybody's going to
Speaker 2: take something different from today's show, but I do hope
Speaker 2: you find something to hold on too. I'd love to
Speaker 2: hear what you've taken from this episode, what insights you
Speaker 2: might have had, what curiosity got peeued. I don't know.
Speaker 2: I just really like to hear from you. Check out
Speaker 2: Refuge Grief on Instagram or here after Pod on TikTok
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Speaker 2: The whole team really loves to see where this show
Speaker 2: takes you. If you want to tell us how today's
Speaker 2: show felt for you, or you have a request or
Speaker 2: a question for upcoming explorations of difficult things, give us
Speaker 2: a call at three two three six four three three
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Speaker 2: you can find the number in the show notes or
Speaker 2: visit Megandivine dot co. If you'd rather send an email,
Speaker 2: you can do that too, right on the website Megandivine
Speaker 2: dot Co. We want to hear from you. I want
Speaker 2: to hear from you. This show, this world needs your voice. Together,
Speaker 2: we can make things better even when they can't be
Speaker 2: made right. You know how most people are going to
Speaker 2: scan through their podcast app looking for a new thing
Speaker 2: to listen to. They're going to see the show description
Speaker 2: for Hereafter and think, I don't want to listen to
Speaker 2: difficult things, even if super cool people are talking about them. Well,
Speaker 2: that's where you come in your reviews of the show.
Speaker 2: Let people know it really isn't all that bad in here.
Speaker 2: We talk about heavy stuff, yes, but it's in the
Speaker 2: service of making things better for everyone. So everyone needs
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Speaker 2: on listening. Friends want more Hereafter. Grief education doesn't just
Speaker 2: belong to end of life issues. As my dad says,
Speaker 2: Daily Life is full of everyday grief that we don't
Speaker 2: call grief, from daily disappointments right up through those losses
Speaker 2: that rearrange the world. Grief is everywhere. Learning how to
Speaker 2: talk about all that without cliches or platitudes or dismissive,
Speaker 2: accidentally on purpose rude statements, Well, that's an important skill
Speaker 2: for everybody. Find tip sheets, trainings, professional resources, and my
Speaker 2: best selling book, It's Okay that You're Not Okay, plus
Speaker 2: the Guided Journal for Grief at Megandivine dot Co. Hereafter
Speaker 2: with Megan Divine as written and produced by me You
Speaker 2: Guessed It Megan Divine. Executive producer is Amy Brown, co
Speaker 2: produced by Elizabeth Fozio, logistical and social media support from Micah,
Speaker 2: and edited by Houston Tilley. Music provided by Wave Crush
Speaker 2: and occasional background noise from the air conditioning that I
Speaker 2: almost always forget to turn off