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Speaker 1: This is me eat your podcast coming at you shirtless,

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Speaker 1: severely bug bitten and in my case, underwear listening podcast.

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Speaker 1: You can't predict anything, ye don't even before we started.

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Speaker 1: Can you read tell me what you were saying earlier

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Speaker 1: as a version of saying something's real big oh tron, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: i'd a fella tell me. He called he wished us

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Speaker 1: good lucky hunting, but we're gonna be turkey hunting with him. Yes,

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Speaker 1: he's excited, but he was in an earlier email not

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Speaker 1: that he's excited about with us, but he's excited about turkey. No,

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Speaker 1: he definitely wasn't excited about going with us because he's

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Speaker 1: serious about it and he don't want to be fiddle

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Speaker 1: farting with us when he's out there trying to kill

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Speaker 1: his Missouri bird. So you don't we're not gonna hunt

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Speaker 1: with him. We may or may not, but he might

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Speaker 1: already have one, you know, down by the time we

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Speaker 1: can get there, because we're coming in for day three

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Speaker 1: of the season, so these guys are gonna have two

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Speaker 1: days to start the season. Anyways, he was wishing his

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Speaker 1: good luck, and he was saying in an email, Hey,

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Speaker 1: if I can't you know, if this doesn't work out,

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Speaker 1: good luck killing a Missouri gobbletron. Yeah, but I hadn't

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Speaker 1: heard that. I don't like it, not to disparage, not

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Speaker 1: to smirch your disparage the guy, but like, I don't

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Speaker 1: like that because I just think of robots a tron

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Speaker 1: to add tron on the end, Yeah, big, like AI turkey.

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Speaker 1: So it's smarter than the regular turkey. Maybe that's what

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Speaker 1: he's getting at, right, like like robotics, like artificial intelligence.

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Speaker 1: Maybe even smarter than the average turkey. Because where I

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Speaker 1: don't where I stopped especially stopped liking it because when

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Speaker 1: you said, it's similar to saying something's mondo. Yeah, we

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Speaker 1: could go around the room someone said to you, Dan,

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Speaker 1: if they're like, hey, man, gobbol tron, would you be like,

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Speaker 1: what does that mean? Or you have an idea? I

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Speaker 1: would be like, what do you like? Do you mean

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Speaker 1: something that's mando or something that's real? Shy, Mondo isn't

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Speaker 1: even a word. We We're hanging out with a guy

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Speaker 1: who runs, who's a houndsman, and he had been doing

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Speaker 1: a lot of work down in Mexico on research projects.

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Speaker 1: So I thought that we would see a track and

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Speaker 1: he'd be like, that's a Mondo track, and I thought

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Speaker 1: it was a Spanish word, So I right away like that,

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Speaker 1: and I started picking up in my head everything as

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Speaker 1: big as mondo. But isn't that a system for shoe

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Speaker 1: sizes too? Though? Mando isn't it? Webster says, definition of

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Speaker 1: mondo adverb slang extremely That's what I thought, So I

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Speaker 1: thought that he was well, not that I thought he.

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Speaker 1: I thought, you speaking in Spanish, And I'm like, if

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Speaker 1: there's a Spanish word to means the giant freaking track,

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Speaker 1: I'm on that word. So I adopted before I even

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Speaker 1: really clear what he's saying. Then later I'm like, hey, man,

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Speaker 1: what does mando translate to? He looks at me, like

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Speaker 1: what do you mean? He goes, It's not mando, it's mango,

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Speaker 1: you know, humongous. So that's what of mondo track is. Ah,

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Speaker 1: you're right, So the whole time he was just saying mango. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but we like ran with it and we're like, mando

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Speaker 1: is the way to go because I used toad, pig,

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Speaker 1: big and big, huge, giant, great big great bigg and

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Speaker 1: pigg stomper. No, yes, I wanted to touch on that.

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Speaker 1: No one other quick order, but is Dirt up Smith

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Speaker 1: is joining us here in dirt you. You know, more

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Speaker 1: people have been writing about your your chewing tobacco problem.

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Speaker 1: Do you care to have me give your uh some

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Speaker 1: up of what their suggestions are? Yeah, just for other

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Speaker 1: listeners struggling with addiction to one guy said there is

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Speaker 1: one of everyone. Another guy came and said to us,

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Speaker 1: a guy rode in to say that, in fact, you're wrong,

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Speaker 1: and there is a chew that has no Oh, I

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Speaker 1: saw that. Yes, it's just nicotine, right, is that what

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Speaker 1: you're talking about, But it doesn't have the nicotine the

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Speaker 1: part that naked dawf all off and you die. So

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Speaker 1: that's a part of it. Yeah. And I have a

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Speaker 1: buddy who did that. And those things they're speaking of,

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Speaker 1: like AI or like technology, a thing that is just

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Speaker 1: nicotine that you put in your mouth just seem you

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Speaker 1: know what I mean, forget what they're called. Yeah, but

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Speaker 1: I tried them. That didn't help. No, I mean, you

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Speaker 1: catch your buzz, but you know old habits, you still

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Speaker 1: got you nice little buzz. Yeah. Yeah, but I did

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Speaker 1: see that. I think you shared that with me or

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Speaker 1: someone instagrammed it to me or something, you know, Bryce

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Speaker 1: and Joe, who weird this ice fishon with? Well, they

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Speaker 1: chew grizzly, And so you put me in an uncomfortable

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Speaker 1: situation because one day I was asking you what kind

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Speaker 1: of chew do you say? And you said, I have

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Speaker 1: a good job. I don't choose grizz. I chew Copenhagen.

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Speaker 1: So I saw that they had griz and so no

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Speaker 1: one that you had told me this, and I put

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Speaker 1: a lot of faith in what you tell me. I said, oh,

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Speaker 1: it's too bad you boys don't have good jobs. And

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Speaker 1: it didn't go over real. Well, well, no one wants

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Speaker 1: to hear the truth, you know sometimes, and then Steve

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Speaker 1: pointed out to them that all, do you have a

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Speaker 1: good job, you know, live out of your truck for

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Speaker 1: a little bit. Yeah, well that's what someone else point

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Speaker 1: out with, you can't have hecative a job. He lives

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Speaker 1: in his truck. Well, you know if he lives at trailheads,

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Speaker 1: if he's like a weird like when you go to

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Speaker 1: the trail and there's a weird guy be there, contact

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Speaker 1: or it's probably dirt. He's got a tin of cope

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Speaker 1: and you know what's him saving them? Saving the rent

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Speaker 1: for two and Adventures all right, before we move on

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Speaker 1: to what we're here to talk about, I want to

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Speaker 1: just get out. I want to find out how much

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Speaker 1: dirt's gonna get out of this conversation. So name for me,

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Speaker 1: if you can, the five species of Pacific salmon. Okay,

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Speaker 1: that we that that that that come to the inhabit

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Speaker 1: us waters, the layman's name or the common name silver chimp, sakip, pink,

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Speaker 1: biggin's bigg and yet yeah, now name the one in

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Speaker 1: the Atlantic. I gave you the answer when a big

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Speaker 1: in salmon. No, I gave the answer after that. It

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Speaker 1: was buried within the question. It was like their day

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Speaker 1: when my daughter said to me, what's one thousand and two?

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Speaker 1: Meaning what happens when you add one thousand and two?

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Speaker 1: And I was like, you just said it? What salmon

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Speaker 1: lives in the Atlantic? Is this the question you posted

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Speaker 1: to me in the start? Because I'm thinking to two

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Speaker 1: when you started the question. No, okay, I'm giving you

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Speaker 1: the answer, what salmon lives in the Atlantic? Oh Atlantic salmon?

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Speaker 1: So we got yeah, no, no, we're good. So Dan

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Speaker 1: so that that's dirt myth and and then um Janie

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Speaker 1: Poodles is here, and then we're all speaking to my

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Speaker 1: brother Danny, who I mentioned all the time whenever fish

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Speaker 1: comes up, because uh, fish biologists, fisheries what do you

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Speaker 1: like to say? Fish biologists? Fisheries biologists. But but that

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Speaker 1: involves a lot more than fish. Yeah, I know, I know.

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Speaker 1: Um yeah, my like the current job title I'm working

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Speaker 1: under is a fisheries biologist, but uma, my background is

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Speaker 1: pretty as well rounded in aquatic ecology and um, I've

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Speaker 1: done work with a lot of work with habitat and

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Speaker 1: aquatic insects and food webs and that sort of stuff.

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Speaker 1: So didn't it come up with you first? Like your

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Speaker 1: first kind of work was around aquatic invertebrates. Yeah, that

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Speaker 1: was kind of my path into fish. But yeah, I

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Speaker 1: got really interested in them as an undergrad working on

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Speaker 1: a fisher fisheries degree, and um, yeah, the first part

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Speaker 1: of my career was spent entirely on aquatic insects and

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Speaker 1: I'm still fascinated with them, but uh you know, yeah,

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Speaker 1: now it's mostly just through the avenue with them being

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Speaker 1: fish food. Yeah. If you were gonna like, what percentage

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Speaker 1: of your time do you spend thinking about and talking

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Speaker 1: about um issues having to do with salmon, it's most

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Speaker 1: of my time, most of my professional time. And why

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Speaker 1: is that? I mean, one you like, but because it's

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Speaker 1: because there's an industry around it and so there's money

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Speaker 1: to support it. I mean that that's that's certainly part

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Speaker 1: of it. But I mean you have to do work

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Speaker 1: that people care about, and you know, when you're when

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Speaker 1: you're working in Alaska and I'm a freshwater biologists, I

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Speaker 1: don't really you know, operate on the marine end of things. Um,

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Speaker 1: you know, in terms of Alaskan freshwaters. It's just you

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Speaker 1: can't overstate the importance of salmon, you know, culturally, economically, ecologically,

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Speaker 1: just incredible. They define Alaska. And you'd like to fish

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Speaker 1: them too? Oh I love to fish them. Yes, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's some one of my favorite things in the world.

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Speaker 1: And the as Dirt pointed out so eloquently, there are

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Speaker 1: um five species of salmon on the Pacific coast of

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Speaker 1: the US, and all five of Colonel Alaska. Yes, yeah,

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Speaker 1: run through real quick what the five Pacific salmon are

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Speaker 1: with like a kind of a basic sense of like

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Speaker 1: what their groove is, okay, yeah, just in terms of

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Speaker 1: how they and then what's up with the Atlantic salmon?

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Speaker 1: Why is there only one over there? Um, so the

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Speaker 1: the five Pacific salmon um, we have the pink or

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Speaker 1: the humpy salmon. Yeah, that's good too, because every salmon

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Speaker 1: has two names as which is totally it's like weird

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Speaker 1: that way, and they're one that has more because there

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Speaker 1: are all there are different names. You know, down in

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Speaker 1: the Northwest, I mean, you know, they're like Schinook salmon.

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Speaker 1: They have different names. In British, Columbia, Washington, they have

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Speaker 1: a million names. But so pinks and humpies within Alaska

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Speaker 1: each has two that are sort of in common usage. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so pinks and humpies and um they are the smallest

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Speaker 1: and most common of the salmon, and they have a

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Speaker 1: sort of a that's the most common salmon numerically, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: most numerically abundant of the salmon. Um. They're just everywhere

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Speaker 1: when the pink salmon run. You've been seeing them in

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Speaker 1: the you know, when you're around the small coastal streams,

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Speaker 1: like down around the fish shack or even up in here.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, when the when the humpies are in there

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Speaker 1: in thick you know, and there's just thousands of them

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Speaker 1: everywhere you go, and the whole place stinks like dead salmon. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they're just incredibly abundant UM, so they know they have

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Speaker 1: a short life history. Every pink salmon that that that

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Speaker 1: that is spawning in the creek is two years old.

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Speaker 1: It was laid as an egg two years prior to

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Speaker 1: that um and that's just that's set in stone pretty much. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's yeah. So so when you have a river that

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Speaker 1: has a pink salmon run that returns in odd years

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Speaker 1: and a pink salmon run that returns in even years,

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Speaker 1: those are two completely separate populations of pink salmon, both

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Speaker 1: with their own separate population dynamics, and so one of

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Speaker 1: those could plummet for whatever reason. Oh yeah, it's incredibly

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Speaker 1: lopsided in some places like that. And I can't remember

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Speaker 1: if it's odd or even like the Fraser ever down

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Speaker 1: and down in British Columbia, in one year it gets,

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Speaker 1: you know, millions and millions of pink salmon, and then

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Speaker 1: the next year it gets essentially none, and it just

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Speaker 1: alternates every year like that, so odd, you're even you're

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Speaker 1: you know, it's gonna be good or not good. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: And that's shifts depending on geography and and over long

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Speaker 1: time spans, it probably shifts. You know within an area,

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Speaker 1: an area might turn from a pink to it, or

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Speaker 1: from an odd to an even or whatever you know.

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Speaker 1: But some areas are pretty even. In some areas are

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Speaker 1: more lopsided. But really two separate populations. Okay, so that's

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Speaker 1: pinks and humpies. What's their Latin name? On karnis They're

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Speaker 1: all on kakus. That's how you pronounce it. Wh Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's how I pronounced the least yeah and uh and

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Speaker 1: hump and the humpy is is gorbushka. I think it's

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Speaker 1: how it's pronounced that rushes Russian. Yes, yeah, I believe so.

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Speaker 1: I believe so. Um. But but pinks are uh life

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Speaker 1: history wise they um, that's with all of the Pacific them.

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Speaker 1: And they are spawned in the sort of late summer

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Speaker 1: or fall, and eggs incubate sort of into the winter

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Speaker 1: and hatch kind of maybe late winter early spring and

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Speaker 1: pink salmon uh upon hatching, and they absorbed the yolk

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Speaker 1: and emerge from the gravel and they leave the river.

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Speaker 1: They just migrate to freshwater. Rent if they hatch, they

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Speaker 1: don't linger. They don't linger. No, And why do pinks

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Speaker 1: like pinks don't run long distances? No, they're there are

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Speaker 1: a lot of there as a lot of them spawned

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Speaker 1: sort of inner tidal areas and low in river systems.

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Speaker 1: They're just adapted using that part of the watershed. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, they might run a couple hundred yards. Oh yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you seem spawning in intertidal areas on that freshwater lens.

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Speaker 1: You know, they migrate into the lower into the estuary,

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Speaker 1: then drop back out as the tide ebbs and flows. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and when they come out of their egg, they're right

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Speaker 1: out in the ocean. Yeah. Well, they come out of

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Speaker 1: the egg and they s level little yolk attached, right,

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Speaker 1: and they once that yolk is absorbed and then at

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Speaker 1: that point their jaws fully developed and they start feeding

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Speaker 1: sort of on their own. And by that point, yeah,

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Speaker 1: those pinks are just following the current and they I think,

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Speaker 1: you know, they started a time they're hatching too. Are

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Speaker 1: there emergence to coincide with um sort of the spring

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Speaker 1: run off, and they just kind of follow that down

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Speaker 1: to the ocean. When those when the salmon's eggs are

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Speaker 1: laying there, like the salmon their eggs like take a

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Speaker 1: pink for instance, his eggs don't stick to the rock

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Speaker 1: they're just laying like in and sheltered areas out of

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Speaker 1: the current between rock. The they're actually buried. I mean,

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Speaker 1: the female excavates the nast the red and the and

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Speaker 1: she lays the eggs there and they're fertilized, and and

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Speaker 1: then she'll ba actually bury them under gravel. Yeah, you

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Speaker 1: see him digging out but I don't know this, so

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Speaker 1: they really cover them up. The ones that aren't covered.

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Speaker 1: She'll take a pocket and then you know, screwed up

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Speaker 1: stream a little bit and dig another one and that

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Speaker 1: kind of falls back on the previous pockets. She started

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Speaker 1: taking a series of these pockets and lays eggs and

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Speaker 1: them and then buries them as she It goes along,

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Speaker 1: So march long to the next So where does when

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Speaker 1: does the mail come in? As she those eggs are

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Speaker 1: fertilized as she's dropping them. Really yeah, I mean you

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Speaker 1: can see it, and you see them. They'll they'll sort

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Speaker 1: of they'll sort of uh sandwich upside by side and

258
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Speaker 1: they're there. You see that. They'll open their jaws and

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Speaker 1: even kind of quiver a little bit, you know, and

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Speaker 1: like that's the action right there. I didn't like. And

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Speaker 1: he's even see the milk drifting down the current. You

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Speaker 1: see a male like when you see a female laying,

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Speaker 1: you see her like the way. So that's digging. You're digging.

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Speaker 1: Because I was saying this here day, Like when we

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Speaker 1: used to fish steelhead, you'd be staring into a place,

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Speaker 1: you know, steelhead hang out. I couldn't tell they're anything there,

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Speaker 1: and you catch the female flash. That flashing is the digging.

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Speaker 1: She's like laying on her side. And picture like if

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Speaker 1: you put your hand on the bottom and the rocks,

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Speaker 1: you lifted it up, you'd create some suction, right and

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Speaker 1: that would kind of pull the rocks up. That's that's

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Speaker 1: what she's doing with her whole body. Okay, yeah, so

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Speaker 1: I have pictured it. I didn't. I didn't of this.

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Speaker 1: I had in my head my whole life here that

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Speaker 1: they lay the egg down and the mail comes in

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Speaker 1: somehow fertilized the sitting egg. But they need to do

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Speaker 1: it in tandem. Yeah yeah, yeah, it's happened all at once.

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Speaker 1: Can you real quick talk about before we get back

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Speaker 1: to the other ones. Can you talk about when when

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Speaker 1: you like the act of fertile when you're furt like

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Speaker 1: doing artificial and salmon in salmination of salmon eggs in

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Speaker 1: a bucket. Uh huh. I remember saying one time that

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Speaker 1: you saw were there's like a five gallon bucket of eggs. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and someone would put in like a table spoon. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: stuff shockingly potent. Yeah, tables a squirt right, like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: like a squirt of seamen. Stir that bucket up with

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Speaker 1: this ladle a spoon and be like that bucket is fertilize. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this was in some uh uh, some little hatchery experience

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Speaker 1: I had in my in my undergraduate days. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: they would take a a bucket of salmon eggs and

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Speaker 1: take a they would just squirt. I think that you

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Speaker 1: would use a few males to make sure that they

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Speaker 1: had you know, good viable one and a little maybe

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Speaker 1: little diversity. Um, but just a little squirt of sperm

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Speaker 1: from each of those fish and do a big bucket

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Speaker 1: of eggs, stir it up and they're good to go,

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Speaker 1: ready to roll? Yeah, Okay, march onto the next fish,

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Speaker 1: um up in the size. Let's go from Like, we

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Speaker 1: can't leave the humpy until we talk a little bit

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Speaker 1: about like why does he get that funny shape when

301
00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:36,159
Speaker 1: he comes back into Yeah, yeah, we can do that,

302
00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:37,960
Speaker 1: but I was planning on coming back with some other

303
00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:40,439
Speaker 1: other issues, But yeah, why not talk about why they

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Speaker 1: call them humpies while they come home? It's at humpy.

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Speaker 1: The humpy term refers to the big kind of pumped

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Speaker 1: back that the male or male pink salmon gets during spawning,

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Speaker 1: and it's crazy hook jaw yes, yes, um, And so yeah,

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Speaker 1: those are secondary sexual characteristics I guess analogous to the

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Speaker 1: ornamentation on a bird or something like that. And they're

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Speaker 1: just demonstrating their The hump makes them look bigger and

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Speaker 1: more opposing, and the hook jab makes them look rougher

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Speaker 1: and tougher, and they they use that to display and

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Speaker 1: for aggression, to compete for females, you know, with other males.

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Speaker 1: So that's him getting tricked out, getting pimped out and

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Speaker 1: ready to spond. Yeah. Do you know, like, are you

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Speaker 1: familiar with the late um geneticist Stephen Jay Gould? Yes,

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Speaker 1: a little. He had a point he made one time

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Speaker 1: and one of his books I was reading, We're He's

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Speaker 1: kind of getting that something I'm sure you deal with

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Speaker 1: and talk about all the time would be that, like

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Speaker 1: we don't know why things become the way they become

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Speaker 1: and he was using an example like someone might look

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Speaker 1: and be like, wow, bark, right, bark is brown? What's

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Speaker 1: the genetic what's the selective advantage of brown bark? Like

325
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Speaker 1: why is it brownie? What is the tree gaining from

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Speaker 1: having brown on bark? And he would say, maybe what

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00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:05,159
Speaker 1: the tree is doing is that there's an advantage to

328
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Speaker 1: having very thick bark, something structural in that, because it

329
00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:11,680
Speaker 1: can resist forest fire. So the advantage of the thickness

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Speaker 1: of bark um as over the years it's selected for

331
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Speaker 1: thicker and thicker bark. It just so happens for for

332
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Speaker 1: maybe perhaps no advantageous region reason at all, that it's

333
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Speaker 1: obtains a certain color. But we look and ponder over

334
00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:32,160
Speaker 1: the color, thinking like why is it that way, when

335
00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:35,000
Speaker 1: it's just there's no reason. It's that it's like green leaves.

336
00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:37,480
Speaker 1: There's nothing special about that color. It's just, yeah, the

337
00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:39,960
Speaker 1: tree isn't gaining from having green leaves, or the color

338
00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:43,879
Speaker 1: is a byproduct of some other but in this case

339
00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:47,040
Speaker 1: it does seem like so. But in this case, like who,

340
00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:50,159
Speaker 1: like maybe some other reason, like why they get a

341
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Speaker 1: big hump and a hook jaw, or is it so?

342
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Speaker 1: Like obviously it has to be that it has that

343
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Speaker 1: because it's like a competitive selective. It's so many other

344
00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:08,880
Speaker 1: species have you know, sort of well breeding, similar types

345
00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:14,879
Speaker 1: of secondary sexual traits that come out during breeding. Um.

346
00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:20,840
Speaker 1: And you know salmon lived for multiple years that those

347
00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:23,919
Speaker 1: traits don't appear until you know, right right at the

348
00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:26,879
Speaker 1: time spawning. Yeah. And it makes sense because it's a

349
00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:31,360
Speaker 1: competitive environment. Yeah, I think, like, yeah, jockeying for favor. Yeah, exactly,

350
00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:33,439
Speaker 1: and it fits with their mating structure. Yeah, I mean

351
00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:36,480
Speaker 1: it makes sense and it probably takes some amount of

352
00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:39,240
Speaker 1: energy to do it, oh for sure, for sure to

353
00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:44,119
Speaker 1: trade off. Yeah yeah, um our fish? Is it true?

354
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Speaker 1: Can you say generally like fisher like birds where the

355
00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:55,560
Speaker 1: males do a lot more ornamentation? There flash here man's

356
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Speaker 1: on the salmon world for why I But yeah, I

357
00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:01,200
Speaker 1: think so. I think so. And parental care tends to

358
00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:04,359
Speaker 1: be males and ornamentation tends to be males females in

359
00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:08,560
Speaker 1: that regards, unlike birds, because the parental care among the

360
00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:11,600
Speaker 1: fishes tends to be fall more in the males. Um.

361
00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:14,719
Speaker 1: But in terms of ornamentation, yeah, I think so. And

362
00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:17,239
Speaker 1: then with the salmon, are the males all bigger than

363
00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:24,639
Speaker 1: the females. No, that's a that's I don't think so,

364
00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:29,879
Speaker 1: that's a good question. I think it's the females on average,

365
00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:31,359
Speaker 1: tend to be a little bigger, tend to be a

366
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Speaker 1: little bit heavier than the males. I think. So, so

367
00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:37,439
Speaker 1: when you catch a big, huge king, it could be

368
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Speaker 1: either sex. Could be either sex. Yeah, yeah, are you

369
00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:47,800
Speaker 1: cool on that? I'm cool man. I think at the

370
00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:51,600
Speaker 1: top end, I can picture some big males. But on average,

371
00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:53,240
Speaker 1: the females might be a little bigger. They tend to

372
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Speaker 1: livel they tend to be a little older. On what species,

373
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Speaker 1: just salmon in general. Yeah, well, well pinks are always

374
00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:03,119
Speaker 1: coming back at two. Why shouldn't say that? Not pinks,

375
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Speaker 1: the others. Yeah, the other one, the ones we haven't

376
00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:06,840
Speaker 1: got too yet, the ones we'll get into. So what's

377
00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:13,760
Speaker 1: the next one? Um, let's just moving up the So

378
00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:16,199
Speaker 1: I mean you think a pink salmon is being you know,

379
00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:22,720
Speaker 1: quite marine right right, because they they um spend relatively

380
00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:27,000
Speaker 1: little time in freshwater. Um, and so chump salmon have

381
00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:29,800
Speaker 1: sort of a similar life history and that they oh,

382
00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:33,440
Speaker 1: that's a good observation. They don't spend like they have

383
00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:35,760
Speaker 1: to have the fresh water, but they just don't spend

384
00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:38,800
Speaker 1: any time. They're only user for breeding. Yeah, I mean

385
00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:44,000
Speaker 1: as soon as that um, as soon as the fry

386
00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:49,400
Speaker 1: emerges from the gravel, like they can handle saltwater right away. Um,

387
00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:51,639
Speaker 1: which you know, the other salmon started to have a

388
00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:55,000
Speaker 1: more bottled transformation and they yeah, they they're out of there. Yeah,

389
00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:58,879
Speaker 1: so he's dead. They all die when they're two. And

390
00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:05,359
Speaker 1: he could have spent eacon freshwater as a free swimming fish. Yeah.

391
00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:12,760
Speaker 1: Um so yeah. Chump salmon um have a somewhat similar

392
00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:16,679
Speaker 1: life history in that they go to see soon after

393
00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:22,600
Speaker 1: emerging from the gravel. Um. A lot of chump salmon

394
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:25,600
Speaker 1: are also spawned sort of coastally low in the watershed.

395
00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:29,200
Speaker 1: But there are, but there are some some chump salmon populations,

396
00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:32,400
Speaker 1: like the Yukon River in Alaska, for example, where chump

397
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:37,960
Speaker 1: salmon move a really long way up rivers. Um. You

398
00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:40,720
Speaker 1: didn't say the two names for chums, chump salmon and

399
00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:43,439
Speaker 1: dog salmon would be the two. I'm sure there are others,

400
00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:45,480
Speaker 1: but in those are the two that are common usage

401
00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:50,960
Speaker 1: in Alaska. UM where they deviate from pink salmon is

402
00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:55,680
Speaker 1: that chump salmon um will can spend multiple years rearing

403
00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:59,840
Speaker 1: and freshwater. UM, I think multiple years, I'm sorry, in

404
00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:04,720
Speaker 1: saltwater and saltwater, so they they leave fresh water soon

405
00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:08,320
Speaker 1: after emerging UM and the typically in the spring of

406
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:11,960
Speaker 1: the year, and they can spend multiple years at sea.

407
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:14,640
Speaker 1: I think two and three years is pretty common for them.

408
00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:16,720
Speaker 1: So with pinks, when you want to go to step

409
00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:19,280
Speaker 1: back with pinks from it, because when pinks, like if

410
00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:22,800
Speaker 1: you catch a big male or big whatever, you catch

411
00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:25,680
Speaker 1: a big specimen who's like obviously bigger than the other ones,

412
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:28,560
Speaker 1: there's nothing he's not he's he's older, he went to

413
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:30,880
Speaker 1: a better place in the ocean. Yeah, you know, there's

414
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:36,720
Speaker 1: a lot of variation and sort of aggressiveness, tolerance for risk,

415
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:38,840
Speaker 1: and those sorts of things over the span of two

416
00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:43,400
Speaker 1: years can result in fish of different sizes. Yeah. And

417
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:46,960
Speaker 1: and a chump can choose to stay another year. Yeah,

418
00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:49,280
Speaker 1: and they that's a that's a good way to put it,

419
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:52,000
Speaker 1: because it sort of is a decision that they make

420
00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:55,800
Speaker 1: UM every year when they're rearing in the ocean. Basically,

421
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:57,879
Speaker 1: they decide, while am I gonna spawn this year or

422
00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:01,320
Speaker 1: am I gonna wait another year? What is that like? UM?

423
00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:03,960
Speaker 1: I know we're using decision, but what does that look like?

424
00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:09,360
Speaker 1: You know, it seems to be related to the foraging

425
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:14,200
Speaker 1: conditions and how rapidly they're growing. Um, and if they

426
00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:19,080
Speaker 1: are when that decision window comes if they're if they're

427
00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:21,960
Speaker 1: if they're in good condition and growing rapidly, they're more

428
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:27,240
Speaker 1: inclined to spawn at the younger age. So so sort

429
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:30,359
Speaker 1: of paradoxically, like you know, for a given species, a

430
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:33,119
Speaker 1: bigger salmon tends to be an older salmon, and it

431
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:36,800
Speaker 1: was one that was sort of growing at a slower

432
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:38,880
Speaker 1: rate and it took longer to get big. When does

433
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:42,159
Speaker 1: that So when does that like, um, that trigger or

434
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:46,639
Speaker 1: decision happened for salmon? Oh, it's that? Is that not

435
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,879
Speaker 1: well understood? How? You know? It's not really my area.

436
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:54,159
Speaker 1: I mean, I but I can speculate that, you know,

437
00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 1: probably late winter springtime, you know, you know, they're they're

438
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:03,840
Speaker 1: out in the Pacific somewhere and and and it's it's

439
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:07,400
Speaker 1: either time to turn and start heading home or not,

440
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:10,320
Speaker 1: you know, and your body start like making the eggs,

441
00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:14,480
Speaker 1: yeah exactly, to mature sexually and yeah exactly, so you

442
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,680
Speaker 1: know they need to leave allow some time for that.

443
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:20,680
Speaker 1: So it's not a you know, not a last minute

444
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:23,360
Speaker 1: or a game time decision. Yeah, yeah, because you're you're

445
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:26,560
Speaker 1: like takes months to develop them. Yeah exactly. You know,

446
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:32,040
Speaker 1: in general, um with chums or whatever. How far out

447
00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:36,600
Speaker 1: into the ocean do they go way out, like all

448
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:39,200
Speaker 1: the way out, all of them. Yeah, I mean they're

449
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 1: overlapping and in their ocean distribution. North American um salmon

450
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:47,960
Speaker 1: in general, she noook tend to be a little more

451
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:52,119
Speaker 1: coastal king salmon, but you know the others, they're overlapping

452
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:54,960
Speaker 1: with Asian fish, and they're all intermingled out in the

453
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:56,639
Speaker 1: middle of the Gulf and out in the middle of

454
00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:00,520
Speaker 1: the North Pacific. And like a North ammon who might

455
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:03,400
Speaker 1: otherwise going to North Korea or is going to Siberia,

456
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:08,199
Speaker 1: is interacting at sea with our fish. Yes, yeah, wow, man,

457
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:11,840
Speaker 1: I didn't all that really. Yeah, but a king might

458
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:14,200
Speaker 1: be more of a homebody there there. Yeah, I mean

459
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:17,840
Speaker 1: there's yeah, they tend to stick closer. I mean, they

460
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:20,439
Speaker 1: tend to stick closer to the coast. Yeah. Yeah. And

461
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:23,120
Speaker 1: then then you just think about the fisheries, right, like

462
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:27,360
Speaker 1: people catch along the coast of Alaska, and presumably for theirselves,

463
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:30,680
Speaker 1: people catch king salmon year round winter kings they call Yeah,

464
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:33,879
Speaker 1: they called the black mouth. Yeah, yeah, but you know

465
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:38,480
Speaker 1: who there aren't any coho inshore that Yeah, there's no

466
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 1: winter cohole fisher, there's no you know, there's no chum

467
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:44,520
Speaker 1: salmon inshore or so um. But yeah, there are king

468
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:47,920
Speaker 1: salmon in coastal waters all the time. When you say

469
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:51,120
Speaker 1: interact with these other salmon out there, is it like

470
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:54,119
Speaker 1: one school passes by the other school or is it

471
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 1: like all of a sudden they're like, hey, let's all

472
00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:58,600
Speaker 1: get together and feed together. That's a good question. I

473
00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:01,479
Speaker 1: don't know. No one knows that yet. Yeah, I don't know.

474
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:05,240
Speaker 1: Maybe maybe judging by how some people that in sort

475
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:08,280
Speaker 1: of engage in that sort of research might see, you know,

476
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:13,160
Speaker 1: in a if they're hooking fish or gill netting or whatever,

477
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:16,280
Speaker 1: they may see that they're intermingled with fish of Asian

478
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:18,520
Speaker 1: origin or whatever. But I'm not that familiar with that.

479
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:22,040
Speaker 1: On that same note, do they ever bumping each other

480
00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:26,720
Speaker 1: and spawning the same spawning sources like or because at

481
00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:29,320
Speaker 1: that point they are going to their home stream and

482
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:32,359
Speaker 1: there won't be two species in the same home stream.

483
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 1: Oh for sure. Yeah, yeah, but different timing. But what

484
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:37,239
Speaker 1: he was saying is there is fish coming out of

485
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:40,880
Speaker 1: Asia and then coming out of North America, that when

486
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:43,880
Speaker 1: they're out there growing there, they might be swimming around together,

487
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:46,320
Speaker 1: but they go so far out from the ocean that

488
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:49,560
Speaker 1: they are competing with each other. But that doesn't happen

489
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:53,360
Speaker 1: with a oh I got you, I got you because

490
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 1: they split up. Think about if they came all back

491
00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:59,560
Speaker 1: to the same place, they would cease to be different

492
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:04,720
Speaker 1: of different origins. Yeah, I'm saying that each subspecies. There's

493
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:09,680
Speaker 1: never a case where species or not each species when

494
00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 1: it comes from the same you know, freshwater source, like

495
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:19,080
Speaker 1: they wouldn't be pinks and jump coming from the same

496
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 1: like freshwater spawning ground. Oh yeah, for sure they do.

497
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 1: And will they like run into each other at that?

498
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:31,400
Speaker 1: Oh yeah? Oh are you saying this dirt? Are you

499
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 1: saying that do pinks and chums intermingle out in the

500
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 1: high seas opposite in the spawning like back at there's

501
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 1: where they you know, they'll be in the river at

502
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 1: the same time. Yeah, Oh, definitely, they're choosing like different

503
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 1: types of habitat and stuff, but they can certainly overlap

504
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 1: during the at the timing of their spawning is there

505
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:51,760
Speaker 1: And what made me ask that is like do they ever?

506
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 1: Is there ever? I don't know if cross breedings hybridize it. Yeah, yeah,

507
00:29:56,640 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 1: you know, I think that's pretty rare in the native

508
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:04,760
Speaker 1: range of salmon. But in the Great Lakes, I know

509
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 1: that it's not it's it's not uncommon there. I've seen

510
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:13,720
Speaker 1: in the Great Lakes where Pacific several species of Pacific

511
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 1: salmon have been introduced. I have seen hybrids of king

512
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:25,120
Speaker 1: salmon and pink salmon. Okay, that's really It looks like

513
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 1: a great, big humpy doesn't. Yeah, it's goods the way

514
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:30,440
Speaker 1: that they are, you know, like you're saying that so

515
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:35,040
Speaker 1: much eggs and so much spermy, like big old fish orgy. Yeah.

516
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:37,600
Speaker 1: They're all spawning roughly at the same time a year. Yeah.

517
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:41,240
Speaker 1: But in the you know, in there in the native range,

518
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 1: it's maybe it happens I but not common. Yeah, not common, alright,

519
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 1: Dogs and chums they don't go they tend to not

520
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 1: go far into the rivers. But but some there was

521
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 1: some very serious exceptions. Yeah, like the ones that will

522
00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:00,520
Speaker 1: goal thousand, thousands of yeah kilometers leased up to Yukon. Yeah,

523
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:07,200
Speaker 1: other rivers and pinks are never found up there. No

524
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 1: pinks are going a little ways in you know, miles,

525
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:12,840
Speaker 1: tens of miles, maybe hundreds of miles, but not thousands.

526
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 1: I wouldn't invite the listener to go pull up a

527
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:17,520
Speaker 1: map of to pull up a map of North America

528
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:20,400
Speaker 1: and ponder for a moment, look at the Yukon. So

529
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:23,600
Speaker 1: like you can imagine, like like how big Alaska is

530
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 1: biggest state. If you center Alaska over a map with

531
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:32,080
Speaker 1: lower forty eight, you kind of like wind up centering Alaska,

532
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:39,800
Speaker 1: you know in the around Iowa or so, and um,

533
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:43,080
Speaker 1: southeast Alaska is way down into Texas. The I think

534
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:46,600
Speaker 1: the Allusians go out to the California coast southeast Alaska

535
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:50,520
Speaker 1: like Georgia and down in there. It's just huge. So so,

536
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:52,800
Speaker 1: but look at the map of North America and ponder

537
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 1: for a moment that fish entering the Yukon. So the

538
00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 1: Yukon kind of like cuts Alaska half east to west

539
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:06,720
Speaker 1: and flows out um in western Alaska. That salmon that

540
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:11,760
Speaker 1: are entering the Yukon at the coast are spawning in

541
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:16,240
Speaker 1: Canada and in the United States has a treaty with

542
00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:21,480
Speaker 1: Canada dictating how many salmon we're gonna let swim through

543
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:25,680
Speaker 1: the border. It's an enormous journey. Yeah, I don't know

544
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:27,360
Speaker 1: how many miles it is at that point, but it's

545
00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 1: a lot. Yeah. Um, And that's chums. And real quick backup,

546
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:35,880
Speaker 1: there's the thing one you touch on the sort of

547
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:40,240
Speaker 1: like economic value or the like the table fair value.

548
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:43,719
Speaker 1: Chums are low man on the totem pole of the

549
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 1: five salmon the least well regarded from a food from

550
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:54,200
Speaker 1: a food perspective, I guess, I guess so, and I'm yeah, um,

551
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:57,680
Speaker 1: I mean I can speak more as in Alaska and

552
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:00,440
Speaker 1: so someone who you know eats a lot salmon and

553
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 1: has a lot of conversations about salmon, and it's like

554
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 1: starts steep in salmon culture. But yeah, and I don't

555
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:09,840
Speaker 1: think there's a great market for them either. But I mean,

556
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:13,120
Speaker 1: I think the reason they have the nickname dog salmon

557
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:16,360
Speaker 1: is because it's you know, it's often dog food, even

558
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 1: even even still today. Um and yeah, pink salmon are

559
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:26,360
Speaker 1: pretty low regard in terms of food ue to at

560
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 1: least among the last and a lot of them wind

561
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:31,280
Speaker 1: can Yeah. Yeah, but there's an industry around can pink salmon,

562
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 1: and um, A lot of that goes to Europe and

563
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:38,080
Speaker 1: England in particular, in the color on the pink salmon.

564
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:40,200
Speaker 1: It might be why they call him pink salmon. That's

565
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:47,080
Speaker 1: what that refers to. Yeah, and like reds red Yeah,

566
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 1: very red appetizing flesh. Yeah. And yeah, tom salmon don't

567
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 1: have great color. Um, and they tend to have low

568
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:58,880
Speaker 1: fat content because they're not undergoing a long freshwater migration,

569
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:01,440
Speaker 1: and so it kind of keeps the demand down and

570
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:04,600
Speaker 1: the price down. They have big eggs though, and um

571
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:08,799
Speaker 1: there that's um. They're fish commercially. A lot of their

572
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:11,960
Speaker 1: commercial values in the row, most of which gets which

573
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:16,400
Speaker 1: probably goes to markets in Asia. Yeah, okay, what's the

574
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:24,400
Speaker 1: next salmon? Um, let's go to Sakai reds red, reds,

575
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:31,799
Speaker 1: reds or socks um. Yeah. So so similar type of

576
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:38,520
Speaker 1: life history pattern. They're anadromous and uh. They the adults

577
00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:42,920
Speaker 1: returned from the ocean to their natal river or in

578
00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:46,440
Speaker 1: the case of Saki lakes. Um. They are strongly associated

579
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:52,040
Speaker 1: with the lakes and spawning occurs um often in or

580
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:55,200
Speaker 1: near lakes. So they go upper river to get to

581
00:34:55,200 --> 00:35:05,080
Speaker 1: a lake. Yes, yes, exactly right, um and there on. So,

582
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:07,520
Speaker 1: like we talked about with pinks and chums, after they

583
00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:11,000
Speaker 1: emerge from the gravel. Those two had to see. Saki

584
00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:14,960
Speaker 1: for the most part, had to a lake, and so

585
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:18,839
Speaker 1: the spawning occurs like along the beaches and lakes in

586
00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:22,279
Speaker 1: some cases where it's upwelling or or or sort of

587
00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:27,440
Speaker 1: wind driven kind of currents um or the spawning feeder

588
00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:31,400
Speaker 1: streams or even outlet streams, and those vicious are genetically

589
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:33,160
Speaker 1: programs and know where that lake is and head for

590
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:35,239
Speaker 1: that lake once they had to be an upstream or

591
00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:39,880
Speaker 1: downstream from their particular location, and they spend a year

592
00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:43,160
Speaker 1: or two in most or a year or two rearing

593
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:46,360
Speaker 1: in that lake in a lake, in a lake, and

594
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:51,200
Speaker 1: they get how big in the lake? Oh? What was

595
00:35:55,400 --> 00:36:01,080
Speaker 1: I think? I'm just roughly yeah, a few inches. What's

596
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:03,520
Speaker 1: the advantage there? So then he spends a year or

597
00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:06,160
Speaker 1: two in a freshwater lake and then he's like, now

598
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 1: I will go to the ocean now, yeah, exactly, exactly, yeah,

599
00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:13,399
Speaker 1: And what's the advantage of that um Probably just it's

600
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:15,239
Speaker 1: just a niche they filled, you know, they're in that

601
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:19,000
Speaker 1: lake and they're in you know, instead of what we'll

602
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:23,720
Speaker 1: talk about how king salmon and soccer and coho salmon

603
00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:25,600
Speaker 1: sort of make living as juveniles in the river. But

604
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:27,640
Speaker 1: they've just served adapt this lifestyle where they're living in

605
00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:30,840
Speaker 1: a lake and they feed on plankton in the water column.

606
00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:35,399
Speaker 1: They're sort of a pelagic uh fish for a couple

607
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:37,600
Speaker 1: of years, but at some point their needs become too

608
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:43,680
Speaker 1: great and they go to see. Uh. It's at some

609
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:48,279
Speaker 1: point they sort of in an evolutionary sense, they've made

610
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:51,279
Speaker 1: the decision that they can grow a lot faster by

611
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:56,840
Speaker 1: migrating to the ocean. They're uh the marine environment is

612
00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:59,160
Speaker 1: much more productive. There's a lot more food out there,

613
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:05,319
Speaker 1: and they reach a size that is big enough that

614
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:11,640
Speaker 1: they're not gonna get eaten the moment they poke out there, right. Uh.

615
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:14,360
Speaker 1: So it's a bit of a balance how long do

616
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:15,920
Speaker 1: you stay in fresh water? But when they reach a

617
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 1: certain size the the head of the ocean, they're big

618
00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:23,439
Speaker 1: enough to survive. I mean, the survival rates very low

619
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:27,280
Speaker 1: regardless of how big these fish are when they're migrating.

620
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:28,840
Speaker 1: But yeah, they get to a certain size ahead of

621
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:31,239
Speaker 1: the ocean, and they take their chances there because the

622
00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:35,200
Speaker 1: return is potentially you know, huge in terms of the

623
00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:39,400
Speaker 1: potential for uh the forage base is much larger. And

624
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:41,520
Speaker 1: how long do they how long does the redd sak

625
00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:47,400
Speaker 1: go out to sea. For um, they're rather variable, but um,

626
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 1: I would tune to four years. I think it's pretty common.

627
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:53,120
Speaker 1: And they come back weighing about what like just from

628
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:58,080
Speaker 1: efficient perspective like pound wise, um, oh, like you know,

629
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:01,239
Speaker 1: maybe three to six pounds, it is pretty common, just

630
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:04,800
Speaker 1: guessing um. And then two quick things, can you explain

631
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:09,040
Speaker 1: like what a cokene he is? So yeah, cokeney is

632
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:13,040
Speaker 1: a landlocked Sakai salmon. So it's a population of Sakai

633
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:16,319
Speaker 1: salmon that lives in a lake. Um. But for whatever reason,

634
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:18,320
Speaker 1: they don't they don't. They don't go to the ocean

635
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 1: either they sort of you know, made that decision not

636
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:24,080
Speaker 1: to go, or they're somehow blocked. And there are natural

637
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:26,840
Speaker 1: populate because there's a lot of introduced populations of cocony,

638
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:31,680
Speaker 1: but they come from natural populations that somehow through some event.

639
00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:34,680
Speaker 1: Then no, I don't I don't think coke cocony are

640
00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:38,840
Speaker 1: necessarily um blocked from going to the ocean instead of

641
00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:41,600
Speaker 1: just life history. So there are cocony populations that could

642
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:43,879
Speaker 1: go to the ocean. Yeah, they say, unless they spin

643
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:48,320
Speaker 1: off from that lakes Saki population and just become cocony.

644
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:49,879
Speaker 1: Just I mean you can think of it the same

645
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:53,160
Speaker 1: way as some resident rainbow trout populations have spun off

646
00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:56,560
Speaker 1: the steelhead population and just stay played. So the opposite

647
00:38:56,560 --> 00:39:01,960
Speaker 1: happened there. Yeah, and then but Cokeny's dinky though. Yeah,

648
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:04,240
Speaker 1: they don't get big because they mean they reach sexual

649
00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:06,760
Speaker 1: maturity at a small size because they're in that lake environment.

650
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:10,640
Speaker 1: But compare that to how big an ocean saki is.

651
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:13,520
Speaker 1: That just shows you that the difference in growth potential

652
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:18,400
Speaker 1: between those two environments. And then they'll soccer will do

653
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:21,480
Speaker 1: some mega migrations or no they yeah, they used the

654
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:24,200
Speaker 1: whole North Pacific. Yeah, no, I mean when they go

655
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:27,239
Speaker 1: up a river, they'll shoot. Yeah. I mean they're really

656
00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:29,160
Speaker 1: attached to lake. So if you have a river system

657
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:32,040
Speaker 1: that has a lake, you know, way way way upstream.

658
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:38,120
Speaker 1: Uh oh, what's Redfish Lake in Idaho. That's an interesting example. Um,

659
00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:39,759
Speaker 1: I don't know how far inland that is, but it

660
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:42,360
Speaker 1: was a Saki population all the way in Idaho. They're

661
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:45,120
Speaker 1: going up the they're going up the Columbia and then

662
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:50,000
Speaker 1: into the clear water or whatever. Yeah, I can't yeah. Uh.

663
00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:53,640
Speaker 1: And then that fish. Talk about this for a minute,

664
00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:58,640
Speaker 1: because like that fish is a fatty fish. Right. Uh, yeah,

665
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:02,600
Speaker 1: you know, I'm not sure about up. Well, here's the question,

666
00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:06,439
Speaker 1: why do you see why do some people think there's

667
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:10,839
Speaker 1: a salmon called a Copper River salmon like as its

668
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:13,400
Speaker 1: own species. Sort of, well, it's it's more of a

669
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:17,719
Speaker 1: brand than a species. But yeah, um, but so you know,

670
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:21,080
Speaker 1: there's in lots of ways salmon adapt to their you know,

671
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:22,880
Speaker 1: they're really a product of the river and they adapt

672
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:25,920
Speaker 1: their specific river. And you know, so in the case

673
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:28,640
Speaker 1: of well I mentioned earlier, fat content, it's sort of

674
00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:32,280
Speaker 1: it's sort of an adaptive trait of salmon in it

675
00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:36,400
Speaker 1: relates to um. You know, when salmon begin their freshwater migration,

676
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:38,640
Speaker 1: they stop feeding and they live on their fat reserves

677
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:42,960
Speaker 1: and fished that um are destined for a spawning ground

678
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:45,360
Speaker 1: that's further up some river tend to put on a

679
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:48,120
Speaker 1: little more fat than fish that are spawning lower in

680
00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:52,240
Speaker 1: the watershed. Um. So, the Copper River being a large,

681
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:55,480
Speaker 1: relatively large watershed with some you know, in terms of

682
00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:58,800
Speaker 1: saki some somewhat long migrations, they tend to be a

683
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:06,040
Speaker 1: little fatter, and people certainly value that the fatty content. Yeah, yeah, um,

684
00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:08,040
Speaker 1: and the comparison that's often made you know, in south

685
00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:11,040
Speaker 1: central alaskas to that of the keena I salmon. That's another.

686
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:15,440
Speaker 1: The Kenai River is another really popular local Soakai salmon fishery,

687
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:19,279
Speaker 1: and the migration uh for the freshwater migration there isn't

688
00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:22,200
Speaker 1: quite as long, and people regard those some people at

689
00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:25,759
Speaker 1: least regard those fish as being less fatty and less flavorable.

690
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:27,920
Speaker 1: But there's probably some data on it. I don't. I'm

691
00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:29,960
Speaker 1: not familiar with it though. Can you real quick explain

692
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:35,560
Speaker 1: the dip net fishery that you engage in? Yeah? So uh.

693
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:39,719
Speaker 1: Alaska residents are allowed to participate in a number of

694
00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:44,759
Speaker 1: fisheries that are called personal use fisheries where um, yeah,

695
00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:46,400
Speaker 1: they let you do some things that would be considered

696
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:49,520
Speaker 1: poaching pretty much anywhere else. Uh. So, there are a

697
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:52,120
Speaker 1: few in south central Alaska, the Copper River, the Kenai River,

698
00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:56,520
Speaker 1: the Casillaf River, and sometimes with some others um during

699
00:41:56,600 --> 00:42:00,960
Speaker 1: US principally, yeah, these are mostly focused on sok salmon,

700
00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:04,120
Speaker 1: but the state opens it up to for locals to

701
00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:08,000
Speaker 1: fish with dip nets and um. A dip net is

702
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:11,239
Speaker 1: defined as basically a landing net with a hoop up

703
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:15,000
Speaker 1: to five feet in diameter, so they're potentially very large nets,

704
00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:18,319
Speaker 1: and people will line up on the along the beach

705
00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:20,440
Speaker 1: and waiters with these nets in the water or in

706
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:22,799
Speaker 1: some cases fish from a boat and sort of told

707
00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:24,879
Speaker 1: these nets down river, you gotta hold them in your hand,

708
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:29,560
Speaker 1: and you're allowed, um, you know, a generous supply of

709
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:33,280
Speaker 1: salmon for your family. Um, like it might be fifteen

710
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:36,279
Speaker 1: sock eyes for the head of household twenty five right now.

711
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:39,280
Speaker 1: So I think the Kenai and the copper of separate

712
00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:42,840
Speaker 1: are managed separately with separate limits. But you're allowed twenty

713
00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:45,320
Speaker 1: five for the head of the household and ten that

714
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:48,880
Speaker 1: this is an annual limit, and then ten fish for

715
00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:53,919
Speaker 1: each member of the household. Um so my family would

716
00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:56,520
Speaker 1: be allowed fifty five salmon from each of those rivers.

717
00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:59,879
Speaker 1: That's far more than we need. But yeah, we are

718
00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:03,520
Speaker 1: so often we head out dipping that in and get

719
00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:06,880
Speaker 1: some fish. Yeah, like up to your ankle deep in

720
00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:10,239
Speaker 1: the boat fish. Yeah yeah, But it's I mean, it's

721
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:12,399
Speaker 1: it's nice to be able to go out and one shot,

722
00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:14,719
Speaker 1: get a whole bunch of salmon and you know, take

723
00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:17,680
Speaker 1: taking care of them, get him in the freezer and

724
00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:20,960
Speaker 1: be done with it, you know, and then can them

725
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:23,680
Speaker 1: freeze him. Yeah, different people do different things with them.

726
00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:27,520
Speaker 1: But do you still mess around with your steel canner? No? No,

727
00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:29,040
Speaker 1: I haven't used that in years. I want to get

728
00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:31,280
Speaker 1: it out though. Yeah, you know, I'm telling about Johanni.

729
00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:34,120
Speaker 1: He bought like a thing to make a like a

730
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:37,520
Speaker 1: home job, to make steel cans instead of glass instead

731
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:41,600
Speaker 1: of glass jars. Yeah. It just it just crimps the

732
00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:43,560
Speaker 1: lid on the can, That's what it does. And then

733
00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:46,640
Speaker 1: you still process it in a canner. You know. That

734
00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:49,160
Speaker 1: thing's pretty sweet. It is cool. I remember you made

735
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:54,520
Speaker 1: me a teal duck in a can. Yeah. Alright, So

736
00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:57,520
Speaker 1: that's the sock I and the sock is the earliest.

737
00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:00,799
Speaker 1: He runs quicker than anybody right in the spring. In

738
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:03,640
Speaker 1: the summer, oh that that run timing all depends on

739
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:08,879
Speaker 1: where you're at. Um, but around here, yeah, the King

740
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:14,879
Speaker 1: Salmon and sock I tend to be the earliest. June, um, yeah,

741
00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:18,719
Speaker 1: even May for king salmon. In some places, Um, they're

742
00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:23,799
Speaker 1: they're starting yeah, um June July for ski around here.

743
00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:29,080
Speaker 1: And then yeah, later in June and July that um,

744
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:32,120
Speaker 1: pinks and chumps starts showing up. And then pretty much

745
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:36,760
Speaker 1: probably everywhere in Alaska that the Coho or the silvers

746
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:40,400
Speaker 1: are the tend to be the latest. Let's move on

747
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:45,760
Speaker 1: to the next one. So we've covered pinks, pink zompies, chums, dogs,

748
00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:52,759
Speaker 1: red sock eys. Uh, Coho silver that's the next one. Yeah,

749
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:55,880
Speaker 1: we'll save that. We'll save the king for last. Yeah.

750
00:44:56,120 --> 00:45:02,840
Speaker 1: Um so yeah, Coho or silver. Um, they're cool salmon.

751
00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:08,640
Speaker 1: The thing I like about them is that um there

752
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:12,160
Speaker 1: and a sort of an aggressive and a sporty salmon.

753
00:45:12,239 --> 00:45:14,080
Speaker 1: They like to chase f lies, and they like to

754
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:18,960
Speaker 1: hit lures, and they run every little trickle. There's just

755
00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:24,520
Speaker 1: co everywhere. Um, and yeah, you can fish them just

756
00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:28,040
Speaker 1: about anywhere. They're they're they're and they're you know, a

757
00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:30,919
Speaker 1: great eating salmon. Um. They're they're kind of like, yeah,

758
00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:33,200
Speaker 1: just like the every man sam. And you know they

759
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:39,960
Speaker 1: run all over the place. Um. In terms of life history, uh,

760
00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:44,520
Speaker 1: obviously an adromus spawn in so a little bit later

761
00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:46,680
Speaker 1: in the other they're more at least around here, they're

762
00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:51,760
Speaker 1: more of a fall spawner, uh September October. The eggs

763
00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:54,680
Speaker 1: over winning the gravel emerge in the spring. But unlike

764
00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:57,280
Speaker 1: all the others we've talked about up to this point,

765
00:45:57,680 --> 00:46:02,440
Speaker 1: the Coho than spends two two years typically in Alaska

766
00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:08,000
Speaker 1: two years um rearing in a stream. They don't go

767
00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:09,680
Speaker 1: to a lake like the soccer go to see like

768
00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:15,840
Speaker 1: the pinks. How big about two hundred millimeters or something? Yeah?

769
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:19,360
Speaker 1: Three three fish? Yeah yeah, And so in Alaska it

770
00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:21,640
Speaker 1: takes a couple of years to do that. Sometimes you'll

771
00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:23,440
Speaker 1: see him taking a little longer. A few of them

772
00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:25,080
Speaker 1: go out after one year, but most like you're looking

773
00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:27,360
Speaker 1: at a dinky little trout, but it's a co home yeah,

774
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:30,120
Speaker 1: I mean yeah, if to the casual observer it would

775
00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:33,040
Speaker 1: look like a small rainbow trout or something. Yeah. Yeah,

776
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:35,160
Speaker 1: and then goes out to the ocean and lives out

777
00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:39,000
Speaker 1: in the ocean for how long? One year? That's it? Yeah?

778
00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:42,720
Speaker 1: Oh really Yeah. So when you're catching twelve pounds silvers,

779
00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:46,520
Speaker 1: those are a year old? No, they're three years old? Yeah,

780
00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:51,920
Speaker 1: one year? One year? Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah. So he

781
00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:54,279
Speaker 1: spends way more of his life in fresh water than

782
00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:59,040
Speaker 1: he does in salt water. Yes, yeah, in Alaska, I

783
00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:03,800
Speaker 1: think further south, um, they they tend to more commonly

784
00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:07,919
Speaker 1: spend one year in freshwater. And that's a good eating fish,

785
00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:11,919
Speaker 1: but not everybody admits how good they are. You say,

786
00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:14,040
Speaker 1: not everybody. I feel like there's some guys that are

787
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:16,920
Speaker 1: like kind of down on silver's. Some guys will only

788
00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:22,240
Speaker 1: eat a king. Yeah, there's like sock i king guys. Yeah,

789
00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:24,800
Speaker 1: I was gonna ask the socks and the co host Roughly,

790
00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:28,480
Speaker 1: usually for for the average Alaskan that fishes, they considered

791
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:32,040
Speaker 1: to be equals. Yeah. I think people sometimes do different

792
00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:34,640
Speaker 1: things with them too, like like sake hold up the

793
00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:36,680
Speaker 1: canning really well, you know, so a lot of people

794
00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:40,360
Speaker 1: home can um. I think the color on that the

795
00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:43,080
Speaker 1: sock is really appealing to you know, that's a really

796
00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:45,080
Speaker 1: pretty filet when you take it out of the freezer too.

797
00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:48,520
Speaker 1: But there can't be as many um, there can't be

798
00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:55,080
Speaker 1: nearly as many tons of silver's harvested commercially. No as

799
00:47:55,120 --> 00:48:02,440
Speaker 1: saki no no and no soak i r um in in.

800
00:48:02,440 --> 00:48:09,040
Speaker 1: In areas where you have rivers with lakes on them,

801
00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:12,840
Speaker 1: these sort of lake systems and sakai are incredibly abundant.

802
00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:15,480
Speaker 1: And those are those are you know, the big dollar

803
00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:18,960
Speaker 1: salmon fisheries in Alaska, the big dollar commercial salmon fisheries.

804
00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:22,360
Speaker 1: Here are saki fisheries. Here's here's a quick one to

805
00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:24,880
Speaker 1: throw us off the sequence that we're going through. But

806
00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:29,080
Speaker 1: how many uh, how many years would you have to

807
00:48:29,120 --> 00:48:33,400
Speaker 1: go back to find a common ancestor and would you

808
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:41,720
Speaker 1: oh yeah, yeah, um oh, it's in the millions maybe,

809
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:47,520
Speaker 1: like I want say, six to maybe ten or fifteen

810
00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:53,880
Speaker 1: million years. I think like that those the five, the

811
00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:58,600
Speaker 1: five salmon that we're talking about had all differentiated by

812
00:48:58,640 --> 00:49:02,600
Speaker 1: about six million years ago. What the hell is that

813
00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:05,560
Speaker 1: fishes groove, man, I don't know. And then going further back,

814
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:09,839
Speaker 1: the the Atlantic salmon peeled off the Pacific salmon line

815
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:15,440
Speaker 1: at there's a common ancestor there too, uh yeah, like

816
00:49:15,520 --> 00:49:19,719
Speaker 1: all the different weather changes and stuff that. Yeah, so well,

817
00:49:20,160 --> 00:49:22,560
Speaker 1: I think you brought this up earlier. But you know,

818
00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:26,680
Speaker 1: there's uh, you know, a theory out there that you know,

819
00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:30,759
Speaker 1: all that speciation in you know, where you have one

820
00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:34,480
Speaker 1: species of Atlantic salmon but five different Pacific salmon. That

821
00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:38,239
Speaker 1: has to do with all the topographical diversity around the

822
00:49:38,239 --> 00:49:41,520
Speaker 1: Pacific rim and the you know, the uplift of mountain

823
00:49:41,600 --> 00:49:46,560
Speaker 1: ranges and things segregated habitats and created opportunities for divergent

824
00:49:46,600 --> 00:49:50,719
Speaker 1: evolution and ye like those fish can go and experience

825
00:49:50,760 --> 00:49:54,120
Speaker 1: so many different kinds of yeah, yeah, but then you

826
00:49:54,120 --> 00:49:56,439
Speaker 1: know around the sort of the Atlanta the Atlantic rim.

827
00:49:56,480 --> 00:49:59,560
Speaker 1: You never get that term, but um, yeah, just just

828
00:49:59,680 --> 00:50:02,360
Speaker 1: doesn't have the you know, the all the mount uplift

829
00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:06,399
Speaker 1: and the potential for habitat frank it's a little more homogeous. Yeah,

830
00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:10,080
Speaker 1: that's the thinking on that. Anyway. That's interesting. So the

831
00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:12,440
Speaker 1: last one, did we give the did we give the

832
00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:18,160
Speaker 1: silver cohorts? Due? Um? I think so. Yeah, you kind

833
00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:20,319
Speaker 1: of finished on just saying how we kind of got

834
00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:24,640
Speaker 1: all excited when we realized that he's he's only he's

835
00:50:24,640 --> 00:50:26,600
Speaker 1: going out on the ocean three inches and the year

836
00:50:26,680 --> 00:50:29,360
Speaker 1: later he comes back as a twelve fift. Yeah, they

837
00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:31,359
Speaker 1: grow fast and it's really interesting, like you know how

838
00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:34,200
Speaker 1: you know, we catch silvers around the cabin and the

839
00:50:34,200 --> 00:50:36,640
Speaker 1: salt water and that's like some of my favorite fishing ever.

840
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:40,920
Speaker 1: You know, I absolutely love it. Um. But those fish

841
00:50:40,920 --> 00:50:43,399
Speaker 1: are packing on like a pound a week when they're

842
00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:45,600
Speaker 1: sort of in the inshore, like on the last bit

843
00:50:45,640 --> 00:50:49,040
Speaker 1: of their sort of pret pre spawn migration as they're

844
00:50:49,040 --> 00:50:52,640
Speaker 1: moving to those channels in Southeast Alaska and presumably other places.

845
00:50:52,680 --> 00:50:55,160
Speaker 1: You know, as they're nearing maturity, they're feeding like crazy

846
00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:57,600
Speaker 1: and just packing on weight. You know, we haven't touched

847
00:50:57,600 --> 00:51:00,280
Speaker 1: on the different fish. Um. Do they tend to harget

848
00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:06,160
Speaker 1: different stuff out in the ocean. Yeah, there, Yeah, there's

849
00:51:06,160 --> 00:51:11,080
Speaker 1: a I know a little bit about that. Um. Chinooks

850
00:51:11,120 --> 00:51:13,319
Speaker 1: hammon tend tend to be a little higher on the

851
00:51:13,320 --> 00:51:18,760
Speaker 1: food web. They're eating more fish, fewer invertebrates. Um Saki

852
00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:26,000
Speaker 1: tend to be um consuming more invertebrates, less fish. Um.

853
00:51:26,040 --> 00:51:28,480
Speaker 1: I think I think pink and Chalmer are a little lower,

854
00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:32,120
Speaker 1: you know, a little more invertebrate in their diet, less fish,

855
00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:36,399
Speaker 1: and like kings will go out and eat squid and stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

856
00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:37,719
Speaker 1: I think I think all of them would eat a

857
00:51:37,760 --> 00:51:40,600
Speaker 1: squid given the opportunity. I mean, they're all generalists, but

858
00:51:40,680 --> 00:51:46,360
Speaker 1: they you know, they they have their own sort of preferences. Okay,

859
00:51:46,520 --> 00:51:49,200
Speaker 1: so kings chinooks? What the hell is the word chinook?

860
00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:52,080
Speaker 1: It's gonna be a native work? Oh yeah, from where?

861
00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:54,600
Speaker 1: I don't know. Is coho native word? You think? I

862
00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:57,600
Speaker 1: don't know. It's a good question. Silver, Like when you

863
00:51:57,600 --> 00:51:59,640
Speaker 1: talk about a coho or silver, the silver has to

864
00:51:59,680 --> 00:52:01,719
Speaker 1: refer or to the side of that fish. Yeah, I

865
00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:06,000
Speaker 1: can't imagine that. I mean, it looks like it's chrome. Yeah, yeah,

866
00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:10,720
Speaker 1: like made out of chrome, made out of stainless steel,

867
00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:16,240
Speaker 1: devil dip chrome um so chinook probably a native word

868
00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:19,560
Speaker 1: king being he is the big bad mofo of king salmon,

869
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:25,800
Speaker 1: the bad mofol the salmon world. So what's their basic rundown? Uh,

870
00:52:26,080 --> 00:52:30,000
Speaker 1: quite similar to that of the co hoo. They'll hang

871
00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:36,560
Speaker 1: out in the freshwater. Yeah here, Uh, most of the

872
00:52:36,640 --> 00:52:41,160
Speaker 1: king salmon in Alaska spend a year in fresh water

873
00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:45,279
Speaker 1: and then several years in salt water. Is how that goes.

874
00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:48,560
Speaker 1: That's why it gets so big. Yep, they'll go out

875
00:52:48,560 --> 00:52:52,440
Speaker 1: for several years. Three four is pretty common. Five uh,

876
00:52:52,680 --> 00:52:56,240
Speaker 1: certainly happens. So when someone catches a giant is it

877
00:52:55,960 --> 00:52:59,160
Speaker 1: is it likely that that just meant he was out longer,

878
00:52:59,480 --> 00:53:01,240
Speaker 1: he was doing the right thing and not make a mistake.

879
00:53:01,280 --> 00:53:03,680
Speaker 1: It's a little bit of both. But yeah, I think

880
00:53:03,800 --> 00:53:07,960
Speaker 1: like a really hog king salmon, it's has been out

881
00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:11,000
Speaker 1: there a while, four or five years. But then that's

882
00:53:11,000 --> 00:53:12,799
Speaker 1: what earlier you kind of mentioned this like the sort

883
00:53:12,800 --> 00:53:15,600
Speaker 1: of paradox. So that means that there was a handful

884
00:53:15,640 --> 00:53:23,160
Speaker 1: of times when his body felt that it wasn't quite ready,

885
00:53:23,360 --> 00:53:26,880
Speaker 1: it wasn't right. It wasn't getting it wasn't getting what

886
00:53:26,960 --> 00:53:29,759
Speaker 1: it needs, and so postpones that spawning run but then

887
00:53:29,800 --> 00:53:32,759
Speaker 1: turns into some fifty sixty pound fish. That's exactly right. Yeah,

888
00:53:32,760 --> 00:53:35,160
Speaker 1: if he was really kicking ass, he would have came back.

889
00:53:35,760 --> 00:53:38,480
Speaker 1: He would have went to see and came back that

890
00:53:38,520 --> 00:53:42,680
Speaker 1: summer as a jack. If they're really growing fast, sometimes

891
00:53:42,719 --> 00:53:45,120
Speaker 1: they don't even need a river. So does a jack

892
00:53:45,200 --> 00:53:48,520
Speaker 1: die when it spawns? Every sam we've talked about dies

893
00:53:48,520 --> 00:53:54,279
Speaker 1: when it spawns. Yes, yes, Pacific salmon. Well, it's a

894
00:53:54,320 --> 00:53:56,640
Speaker 1: little scrolling because of the steel head here, which is

895
00:53:57,160 --> 00:54:00,319
Speaker 1: sort of technically a Pacific salmon, but that that that

896
00:54:00,040 --> 00:54:03,839
Speaker 1: that's the only one that that that will live to

897
00:54:03,880 --> 00:54:07,400
Speaker 1: spawn again. And a steel head is a rainbow trout.

898
00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:10,560
Speaker 1: I mean this is a layman's it's a rainbow trout

899
00:54:10,600 --> 00:54:12,200
Speaker 1: that goes to the ocean for some of it's an

900
00:54:12,239 --> 00:54:16,520
Speaker 1: anadromous rainbow trout. Yeah, it's the same genus as the

901
00:54:16,520 --> 00:54:19,319
Speaker 1: Pacific salmon, but it rain But a steel head can

902
00:54:19,360 --> 00:54:24,800
Speaker 1: spawn multiple times, yes, yeah, but Pacific salmon always spawning

903
00:54:24,840 --> 00:54:29,120
Speaker 1: after they die. Atlantics can go back to the ocean. Yes, yes,

904
00:54:30,040 --> 00:54:32,840
Speaker 1: there's not a death sentence to spawn. No, No, I

905
00:54:32,840 --> 00:54:36,000
Speaker 1: mean a lot of do die. What is the advantage

906
00:54:36,040 --> 00:54:40,880
Speaker 1: of the dying? So the advantage of the dying is

907
00:54:41,680 --> 00:54:45,279
Speaker 1: it's it's a trade off. They're basically committing all of

908
00:54:45,320 --> 00:54:48,719
Speaker 1: their resources to one reproductive event so they can make

909
00:54:48,760 --> 00:54:51,759
Speaker 1: more eggs, bigger eggs, they can defend their nests. They're

910
00:54:51,800 --> 00:54:54,400
Speaker 1: just plowing it onto one event at the expense of

911
00:54:54,440 --> 00:54:59,000
Speaker 1: any future potential spawning. Going for broke. They're just going

912
00:54:59,040 --> 00:55:05,080
Speaker 1: for broke, exactly right in an evolutionary sense. Yeah, And

913
00:55:05,080 --> 00:55:07,680
Speaker 1: if like that works for them, why did it not work?

914
00:55:07,920 --> 00:55:09,399
Speaker 1: It's just like I wanted to be like, why did

915
00:55:09,400 --> 00:55:14,040
Speaker 1: it not work for steelhead? Yeah? I just yeah, they're

916
00:55:14,080 --> 00:55:18,040
Speaker 1: operating in a different A good time machine question would

917
00:55:18,080 --> 00:55:21,600
Speaker 1: be to go back more towards that, like the common

918
00:55:21,640 --> 00:55:24,960
Speaker 1: ancestor and what was that fish's groove? Yeah, what's the

919
00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:29,160
Speaker 1: ancestral trade there? Yeah? Was the whole dying thing later

920
00:55:29,400 --> 00:55:32,000
Speaker 1: like something that came around later or have they been

921
00:55:32,040 --> 00:55:35,640
Speaker 1: doing that the dying trick for a long time? That's

922
00:55:35,640 --> 00:55:40,319
Speaker 1: a good question. Are the Atlantic salmon do they have

923
00:55:40,360 --> 00:55:43,680
Speaker 1: traits more similar to that initial like before that the

924
00:55:43,760 --> 00:55:47,480
Speaker 1: split of the species in that that they can spawn

925
00:55:47,520 --> 00:55:50,640
Speaker 1: multiple times and that they didn't have the like you said, Yeah,

926
00:55:50,719 --> 00:55:53,440
Speaker 1: that's a good question, And I mean, like there are

927
00:55:54,200 --> 00:55:57,360
Speaker 1: I'm not sure something you can derive from the fossil record,

928
00:55:57,480 --> 00:56:00,800
Speaker 1: like you know, things about the new Mine is the baby,

929
00:56:01,120 --> 00:56:03,120
Speaker 1: you know, So there's not a lot of salmon fossils

930
00:56:03,120 --> 00:56:06,319
Speaker 1: to begin with. So um, yeah, somebody might know the

931
00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:11,000
Speaker 1: answer to that, but it's not me. Why do uh,

932
00:56:11,000 --> 00:56:16,080
Speaker 1: why do you damn? Why are damns so bad for fish? Uh?

933
00:56:16,320 --> 00:56:19,319
Speaker 1: Quite a the impact the habitat in a lot of ways,

934
00:56:19,360 --> 00:56:22,120
Speaker 1: But the most obvious is that they blocked migration that

935
00:56:22,200 --> 00:56:25,520
Speaker 1: is the most upstream and downstream, and they convert a

936
00:56:25,520 --> 00:56:28,480
Speaker 1: big chunk of river to a pond, you know, and

937
00:56:28,520 --> 00:56:34,160
Speaker 1: all the and um, and you get a whole set

938
00:56:34,160 --> 00:56:37,680
Speaker 1: of predators that tend to live in those ponds. Right.

939
00:56:37,719 --> 00:56:40,239
Speaker 1: And then when you when you have juvenile fish on

940
00:56:40,320 --> 00:56:43,520
Speaker 1: their seaward migration and they're used to sort of riding

941
00:56:43,520 --> 00:56:46,160
Speaker 1: the spring melt plume out to the ocean and they're

942
00:56:46,200 --> 00:56:49,400
Speaker 1: making that journey not trip. And also they hit a

943
00:56:49,480 --> 00:56:53,319
Speaker 1: lake you know that really slows things down. Yeah, yeah, exactly,

944
00:56:53,480 --> 00:56:55,400
Speaker 1: follow while line and pike, minnows and all kinds of

945
00:56:55,440 --> 00:56:58,360
Speaker 1: their fish that that weren't originally there that want to

946
00:56:58,400 --> 00:57:01,040
Speaker 1: eat you. Yeah, and then you got turbans to content

947
00:57:01,239 --> 00:57:04,400
Speaker 1: contend with, and you know, the impacts of which mechanically

948
00:57:04,480 --> 00:57:06,839
Speaker 1: killed the fish. I mean like meaning like smack them

949
00:57:06,840 --> 00:57:11,000
Speaker 1: in the head. Well it's you know, uh yeah, they're

950
00:57:11,040 --> 00:57:13,640
Speaker 1: not it's not plenty of fish pass room and live.

951
00:57:13,760 --> 00:57:17,240
Speaker 1: But but and this is more Pacific Northwest type stuff

952
00:57:17,240 --> 00:57:19,560
Speaker 1: and it's not really my you know, my area. But

953
00:57:20,360 --> 00:57:24,160
Speaker 1: um you guys don't have any major um, you don't

954
00:57:24,200 --> 00:57:26,720
Speaker 1: have any major No, we don't have big hydro projects here. No,

955
00:57:26,880 --> 00:57:28,680
Speaker 1: this one that's kicked around once in a while unless

956
00:57:28,680 --> 00:57:32,440
Speaker 1: you's sitting the river, but um no, it's not. Um yeah,

957
00:57:32,480 --> 00:57:37,640
Speaker 1: we're sort of lagging behind you guys. I'm hoping you

958
00:57:37,640 --> 00:57:44,240
Speaker 1: don't catch Yeah. But like, so, why are kings? Okay,

959
00:57:44,280 --> 00:57:50,320
Speaker 1: the is the future bright for pink salmon? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, yeah,

960
00:57:50,720 --> 00:57:52,720
Speaker 1: you know pink salmon being so short lived there, you know,

961
00:57:53,080 --> 00:57:56,280
Speaker 1: they're quite adaptable, they're look a little bit weedy, you know,

962
00:57:56,320 --> 00:58:00,320
Speaker 1: they're uh, I don't think anyone's numbers are really high

963
00:58:00,400 --> 00:58:03,080
Speaker 1: right now. But why are kings then, Like, why are

964
00:58:03,160 --> 00:58:07,760
Speaker 1: kings so screwed? Like what is their achilles? Heel. So, yeah,

965
00:58:07,840 --> 00:58:10,800
Speaker 1: like you never hear any good news about kings. Yeah,

966
00:58:11,120 --> 00:58:13,400
Speaker 1: it's like like river system. At the river system, it's

967
00:58:13,440 --> 00:58:17,240
Speaker 1: like there's fewer, they're not as big, fewer, they're not

968
00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:22,480
Speaker 1: as big. Yeah. Yeah, so the king Samon had been

969
00:58:22,520 --> 00:58:30,160
Speaker 1: trending downward in size for decades, decades, decades. Yeah, and

970
00:58:30,440 --> 00:58:39,200
Speaker 1: do you feel that it's human causes this size? Selective

971
00:58:39,240 --> 00:58:43,080
Speaker 1: harvest probably plays a role in that. Yeah, there the

972
00:58:43,320 --> 00:58:46,960
Speaker 1: there there's a fair bit of speculation about what's driving that.

973
00:58:47,080 --> 00:58:50,960
Speaker 1: It's probably not any one thing, um, but people have

974
00:58:51,000 --> 00:58:55,640
Speaker 1: been harvesting salmon for a long time and and it's

975
00:58:55,720 --> 00:59:00,360
Speaker 1: it's non random, um. And so yeah, selectively high resting

976
00:59:00,640 --> 00:59:05,800
Speaker 1: larger individuals is you know it's gonna drive down size. Yeah,

977
00:59:06,080 --> 00:59:10,280
Speaker 1: so that's probably part of it. Changes in ocean productivity, uh,

978
00:59:10,400 --> 00:59:13,200
Speaker 1: food resources at sea, that sort of things probably also

979
00:59:13,240 --> 00:59:16,600
Speaker 1: plays a role. So like general general overfishing in the

980
00:59:16,640 --> 00:59:20,360
Speaker 1: seas could be could could not not I mean not

981
00:59:20,520 --> 00:59:24,760
Speaker 1: overfing overfishing service separate issue. You know that's taking somebody

982
00:59:24,800 --> 00:59:27,919
Speaker 1: that they can't replace themselves, right or or but this

983
00:59:28,000 --> 00:59:32,560
Speaker 1: is this is sort of fishing in a non random way, right,

984
00:59:32,640 --> 00:59:38,720
Speaker 1: You're you're you're selectively harvesting the larger or faster growing individuals,

985
00:59:39,720 --> 00:59:44,120
Speaker 1: and you're sort of left with the but but what

986
00:59:44,160 --> 00:59:52,440
Speaker 1: about the food aspect if so? Um, yeah, king salmon.

987
00:59:53,040 --> 00:59:55,560
Speaker 1: I mentioned earlier that they feed a little bit more coastally.

988
00:59:56,120 --> 00:59:58,640
Speaker 1: They're a little bit more of a cold adapted salmon.

989
00:59:58,840 --> 01:00:03,760
Speaker 1: They're in deeper water, thre colder water. Um, they're speeding

990
01:00:03,760 --> 01:00:06,160
Speaker 1: in a sort of a different food web than the

991
01:00:06,200 --> 01:00:09,560
Speaker 1: other salmon. They tend to be more the surface, more offshore.

992
01:00:10,720 --> 01:00:16,680
Speaker 1: And yes, it's it's possible that, um, the changing climate

993
01:00:16,680 --> 01:00:20,480
Speaker 1: patterns and ocean circulation patterns have affected their food resources

994
01:00:20,480 --> 01:00:24,480
Speaker 1: in a way that hasn't impact of the resources of

995
01:00:24,560 --> 01:00:28,000
Speaker 1: the other species in my right, and saying that they're

996
01:00:28,040 --> 01:00:30,240
Speaker 1: just kind of screwed, is that not? Is that true

997
01:00:30,280 --> 01:00:32,520
Speaker 1: or not true? I don't know. I mean there's a

998
01:00:32,520 --> 01:00:36,440
Speaker 1: long history of salmon, you know, having problems and bouncing back,

999
01:00:36,520 --> 01:00:40,160
Speaker 1: you know, And um, what's an example of salmon the

1000
01:00:40,160 --> 01:00:42,240
Speaker 1: head of problem and bounce back? Oh there, you know,

1001
01:00:42,280 --> 01:00:46,000
Speaker 1: any look at any run within Alaska. There there are

1002
01:00:46,040 --> 01:00:48,880
Speaker 1: periods of low productivity and periods of high productivity. It

1003
01:00:49,200 --> 01:00:52,000
Speaker 1: happens in lots of places. Um, So you think that

1004
01:00:52,120 --> 01:00:54,560
Speaker 1: the problem with kings that like if you just sort

1005
01:00:54,560 --> 01:00:57,280
Speaker 1: of like I, I go beyond casual, but you know,

1006
01:00:57,440 --> 01:01:00,920
Speaker 1: I take in news about fish. I haven't selected for

1007
01:01:01,000 --> 01:01:04,920
Speaker 1: my personal news feed the fisheries. I'm always reading like

1008
01:01:05,200 --> 01:01:08,160
Speaker 1: really bad stuff about kings. Could it wind up being

1009
01:01:08,200 --> 01:01:09,880
Speaker 1: there in ten years? Were like, man, did we have

1010
01:01:09,920 --> 01:01:14,640
Speaker 1: a rough stretch? Yes? Really, it very well could. Yeah. Yeah,

1011
01:01:14,720 --> 01:01:18,080
Speaker 1: I mean it's probably related to ocean conditions. And you

1012
01:01:18,120 --> 01:01:22,120
Speaker 1: know that there are these regime shifts and things that

1013
01:01:22,120 --> 01:01:25,320
Speaker 1: occur that can't begin to understand the physics behind them.

1014
01:01:25,320 --> 01:01:27,560
Speaker 1: But there are these regime shift to change in the ocean,

1015
01:01:27,560 --> 01:01:29,120
Speaker 1: and it's like throwing a switch and all of a

1016
01:01:29,160 --> 01:01:32,520
Speaker 1: sudden things just turn around. It's it's possible that could happen,

1017
01:01:32,640 --> 01:01:35,480
Speaker 1: or it's possible that I mean like El Nino La

1018
01:01:35,600 --> 01:01:39,840
Speaker 1: Nina type activity exactly exactly, or or it's possible that's

1019
01:01:39,840 --> 01:01:43,440
Speaker 1: that somehow we've you know, affected the fish of their

1020
01:01:43,480 --> 01:01:46,880
Speaker 1: habitat in a way that it's not they're not compatible

1021
01:01:46,920 --> 01:01:51,280
Speaker 1: with it anymore. The only time will tell um. But

1022
01:01:52,240 --> 01:01:55,200
Speaker 1: go ahead, no, uh, finish up. I can say there

1023
01:01:55,200 --> 01:01:59,520
Speaker 1: there are you know, certain examples of fish having you know,

1024
01:02:00,280 --> 01:02:03,000
Speaker 1: potentially prolonged periods of low productivity that all of a

1025
01:02:03,040 --> 01:02:05,640
Speaker 1: sudden something changes and they turned it around. You know,

1026
01:02:05,640 --> 01:02:08,640
Speaker 1: Alaska has here, we have the benefit that are that

1027
01:02:08,720 --> 01:02:11,200
Speaker 1: are you know, are sort of freshwater river habitat is

1028
01:02:11,280 --> 01:02:14,560
Speaker 1: really intact. It's the most of it is is in

1029
01:02:14,600 --> 01:02:20,680
Speaker 1: a really good condition, and um that that gives them

1030
01:02:20,680 --> 01:02:23,360
Speaker 1: a lot of resilience, um that they don't have in

1031
01:02:23,400 --> 01:02:26,040
Speaker 1: other places. You mentioned something to me before that I've

1032
01:02:26,200 --> 01:02:27,840
Speaker 1: mentioned a couple of times that you're talking about it.

1033
01:02:27,880 --> 01:02:31,800
Speaker 1: We're talking about conservation, wildlife, conservation, and you were you

1034
01:02:31,840 --> 01:02:35,520
Speaker 1: were saying, how just speaking of general sense, not applied

1035
01:02:35,520 --> 01:02:38,400
Speaker 1: to any particular species. If you're saying the conservation is

1036
01:02:38,440 --> 01:02:41,080
Speaker 1: such a different thing in the Lower forty eight, where

1037
01:02:41,120 --> 01:02:45,960
Speaker 1: you guys have been a recovery mode for so long. Yeah,

1038
01:02:46,240 --> 01:02:48,960
Speaker 1: and Alaska it's more like like you're not really in

1039
01:02:49,000 --> 01:02:51,680
Speaker 1: a recovery mode. You're in almost in a descriptive mode

1040
01:02:51,760 --> 01:02:55,800
Speaker 1: up here, Yeah, and a conserving mode. We're trying to

1041
01:02:56,240 --> 01:03:00,640
Speaker 1: learn from the lessons of Lower forty eight, like what

1042
01:03:00,920 --> 01:03:04,800
Speaker 1: exactly did those guys do there to screw their salmon

1043
01:03:04,880 --> 01:03:06,600
Speaker 1: up so bad? And how can we avoid making the

1044
01:03:06,640 --> 01:03:11,040
Speaker 1: same mistakes? Yeah, Yeah, Um, it's interesting to a lot

1045
01:03:11,040 --> 01:03:13,600
Speaker 1: of conservation efforts here too, and I think it's I

1046
01:03:13,600 --> 01:03:16,600
Speaker 1: think it's a worthwhile endeavor. But they're trying to like

1047
01:03:17,680 --> 01:03:21,640
Speaker 1: foster a relationship between Alaskans and salmon, or or to

1048
01:03:21,720 --> 01:03:25,160
Speaker 1: strengthen that relationship, to make like salmon like a real

1049
01:03:25,680 --> 01:03:29,800
Speaker 1: sort of um, cultural touchstone here so that people are

1050
01:03:29,840 --> 01:03:36,880
Speaker 1: more inclined to want to protect everybody. Yeah, exactly, exactly, Yeah, Yeah,

1051
01:03:37,160 --> 01:03:39,920
Speaker 1: I think that's effort well spent, just to increase the

1052
01:03:39,920 --> 01:03:43,880
Speaker 1: cultural awareness, cultural value, yep, to make it be that

1053
01:03:43,960 --> 01:03:47,080
Speaker 1: this more valuable than everybody cares, more valuable than gold,

1054
01:03:47,200 --> 01:03:50,480
Speaker 1: or more valuable than yeah exactly. Yeah. And part of

1055
01:03:50,480 --> 01:03:53,920
Speaker 1: that just pointing out how economically and culturally they are important.

1056
01:03:53,920 --> 01:03:56,680
Speaker 1: And part of it is trying to you know, strengthen

1057
01:03:56,760 --> 01:04:00,160
Speaker 1: relationships that people have. And there's a lot of were

1058
01:04:00,200 --> 01:04:01,680
Speaker 1: moving in and out of the last all the time,

1059
01:04:01,920 --> 01:04:04,400
Speaker 1: and you know, huge part of our population somewhat transient,

1060
01:04:04,440 --> 01:04:08,200
Speaker 1: but getting those people connected to salmon. What was it

1061
01:04:08,240 --> 01:04:12,560
Speaker 1: that caused, um, what was the thinking that led people

1062
01:04:12,600 --> 01:04:15,760
Speaker 1: to want to start beginning to introduce salmon into the

1063
01:04:15,760 --> 01:04:21,720
Speaker 1: Great Lakes where we grew up. Oh so, in terms

1064
01:04:21,800 --> 01:04:24,560
Speaker 1: of the steel head. I think that was largely a

1065
01:04:24,960 --> 01:04:27,000
Speaker 1: sport fish. That was the first of the salmon to

1066
01:04:27,040 --> 01:04:30,160
Speaker 1: be introduced, and that was late eighteen hundreds. Well, they

1067
01:04:30,200 --> 01:04:34,520
Speaker 1: tried steel head first, to my knowledge, they may have

1068
01:04:34,520 --> 01:04:37,800
Speaker 1: tried other salmon that didn't take, but steel head head

1069
01:04:38,200 --> 01:04:40,880
Speaker 1: were introduced and they got him to go quickly from

1070
01:04:40,920 --> 01:04:43,320
Speaker 1: California steel head stock and they introduced him in the

1071
01:04:43,400 --> 01:04:46,280
Speaker 1: late eighteen hundreds. And yeah, and there was a lot

1072
01:04:46,280 --> 01:04:49,800
Speaker 1: of kind of hatch reproduction keeping that propped up. But

1073
01:04:49,840 --> 01:04:52,840
Speaker 1: I think that there are some self supporting populations there.

1074
01:04:52,880 --> 01:04:57,960
Speaker 1: But the Pacific salmon um chinook salmon were introduced what

1075
01:04:58,240 --> 01:05:02,400
Speaker 1: late sixties, Yeah, I don't Yeah, the chronology it was weird.

1076
01:05:02,440 --> 01:05:03,919
Speaker 1: It's that really the main point I wanted to ask

1077
01:05:03,960 --> 01:05:08,480
Speaker 1: you about. But uh, but yeah, the motivation was that, um,

1078
01:05:08,520 --> 01:05:10,320
Speaker 1: you know, the Great Lakes had been sort of taken

1079
01:05:10,360 --> 01:05:15,400
Speaker 1: over by one wave after another of invasive species, and um,

1080
01:05:16,160 --> 01:05:20,680
Speaker 1: the al wife was one that was introduced via the

1081
01:05:20,720 --> 01:05:22,480
Speaker 1: sort of one and shipping canal that came in from

1082
01:05:22,480 --> 01:05:25,680
Speaker 1: the Atlantic Coast into the Great Lakes, and its population

1083
01:05:25,720 --> 01:05:29,520
Speaker 1: that exploded by the I guess late sixties, maybe early seventies,

1084
01:05:30,440 --> 01:05:33,840
Speaker 1: and the state of Michigan. To my knowledge, stock that

1085
01:05:34,120 --> 01:05:36,760
Speaker 1: shinook salmon in an attempt to get something to eat

1086
01:05:36,800 --> 01:05:40,360
Speaker 1: all those ol wives up. Um do you remember that

1087
01:05:40,640 --> 01:05:42,400
Speaker 1: wives and weird kids? Oh yeah, I remember that. Like

1088
01:05:42,480 --> 01:05:47,520
Speaker 1: just carpeting the beaches was like national news stories. And

1089
01:05:47,560 --> 01:05:49,560
Speaker 1: I know that they tried multiple times to get various

1090
01:05:49,560 --> 01:05:52,520
Speaker 1: fish going. But but like, um, so they established a

1091
01:05:52,560 --> 01:05:57,040
Speaker 1: pink population the Great Lakes. Yeah, and that was accidental. Uh.

1092
01:05:57,440 --> 01:05:59,120
Speaker 1: All the pinks and the great salmon and the Great

1093
01:05:59,160 --> 01:06:02,120
Speaker 1: Lakes came from un accidental stocking at I think it

1094
01:06:02,200 --> 01:06:07,200
Speaker 1: was from an Ontario hatchery um on Lake the Lake

1095
01:06:07,280 --> 01:06:10,120
Speaker 1: Huron side. And I think they were holding pink salmon

1096
01:06:10,840 --> 01:06:14,040
Speaker 1: at a hatchery because they were trying to introduce introduce

1097
01:06:14,640 --> 01:06:16,440
Speaker 1: if I have this right, they were trying to introduce

1098
01:06:16,440 --> 01:06:21,440
Speaker 1: a population on the Canadian Atlantic somewhere and they were

1099
01:06:21,480 --> 01:06:24,360
Speaker 1: holding them on a hatchery in the Great Lakes. And

1100
01:06:24,680 --> 01:06:27,960
Speaker 1: some escape somehow, and that was all took. They just

1101
01:06:29,520 --> 01:06:33,720
Speaker 1: adapted very very quickly to in the northern waters more. Yeah,

1102
01:06:33,720 --> 01:06:36,160
Speaker 1: the northern maybe half of the Great Lakes. There a

1103
01:06:36,160 --> 01:06:39,000
Speaker 1: lot they you know, they moved, you know, from from

1104
01:06:39,040 --> 01:06:41,320
Speaker 1: their point of the least that they were establishing runs

1105
01:06:41,320 --> 01:06:43,560
Speaker 1: in nearby streams, you know, pretty quickly, and they spread

1106
01:06:43,560 --> 01:06:46,760
Speaker 1: around the upper Great Lakes. Does it make sense now

1107
01:06:47,040 --> 01:06:50,120
Speaker 1: that so so they have you know, they got chinooks

1108
01:06:50,800 --> 01:06:52,880
Speaker 1: or kings in the Great Lakes. There co hos in

1109
01:06:52,920 --> 01:06:57,320
Speaker 1: the Great Lakes. There's yeah, and there's rain or steel

1110
01:06:57,360 --> 01:06:59,280
Speaker 1: hitting the Great Lakes. Does it make sense that they

1111
01:06:59,280 --> 01:07:02,040
Speaker 1: were that? Would you look now knowing you know, no

1112
01:07:02,120 --> 01:07:05,080
Speaker 1: one's like, oh, yeah, of course sock ey's and chums

1113
01:07:05,120 --> 01:07:07,400
Speaker 1: aren't gonna work in the Great Lakes, you know, No,

1114
01:07:07,560 --> 01:07:10,160
Speaker 1: I think I think that's kind of hard to predict.

1115
01:07:10,520 --> 01:07:13,800
Speaker 1: It's sometimes they take and sometimes they don't, And there's

1116
01:07:13,800 --> 01:07:15,400
Speaker 1: just a bit of a history of people trying to

1117
01:07:15,440 --> 01:07:19,480
Speaker 1: move salmon around, you know. Um, But yeah, I don't

1118
01:07:19,520 --> 01:07:21,680
Speaker 1: know if anyone would be like guess as to whether

1119
01:07:21,760 --> 01:07:24,280
Speaker 1: or not they would take or not. But yeah, those

1120
01:07:24,320 --> 01:07:26,600
Speaker 1: are I know, sok I have been tried in the

1121
01:07:26,600 --> 01:07:29,680
Speaker 1: Great Lakes. They didn't take coho. I'm not even sure

1122
01:07:29,680 --> 01:07:34,840
Speaker 1: that they're self sustaining anywhere there, I think so, But man,

1123
01:07:34,880 --> 01:07:38,920
Speaker 1: that's the haven't that's another world. There's a book that

1124
01:07:39,000 --> 01:07:40,760
Speaker 1: I have called Fishing the Great Lakes, and it's an

1125
01:07:40,880 --> 01:07:43,520
Speaker 1: environmental history of the Great Lakes, and it gets into

1126
01:07:44,240 --> 01:07:48,240
Speaker 1: the collapse of the native fisheries and then just that

1127
01:07:48,400 --> 01:07:51,640
Speaker 1: long history of people trying to make up for it.

1128
01:07:52,200 --> 01:07:55,640
Speaker 1: But rather than fixing, you know, and sometimes the problems

1129
01:07:55,640 --> 01:07:59,320
Speaker 1: are unfixable, but like, rather than fixing the problem, let's

1130
01:07:59,320 --> 01:08:01,280
Speaker 1: just see if there's some other thing that might like

1131
01:08:01,400 --> 01:08:05,520
Speaker 1: it here as we do whatever, and like interesting things that,

1132
01:08:06,040 --> 01:08:09,800
Speaker 1: you know, the logging boom where they were, you know,

1133
01:08:09,880 --> 01:08:13,560
Speaker 1: logging off the Great Lake States and rafting all those

1134
01:08:13,640 --> 01:08:16,000
Speaker 1: logs out in the Great Lakes and the bays and

1135
01:08:16,320 --> 01:08:19,600
Speaker 1: estuary areas or it's not use it's not saltwater, but

1136
01:08:19,600 --> 01:08:23,839
Speaker 1: the river and all the bark when you're floating logs,

1137
01:08:24,800 --> 01:08:28,080
Speaker 1: the bark eventually falls away from the tree, and that

1138
01:08:28,320 --> 01:08:32,200
Speaker 1: you have spawning areas that were covered in twelve fifteen

1139
01:08:32,280 --> 01:08:37,519
Speaker 1: feet of bark, destroying fisheries, and then over fishing destroying fisheries,

1140
01:08:37,560 --> 01:08:40,680
Speaker 1: and later people being like, well, let's try maybe a

1141
01:08:40,760 --> 01:08:43,720
Speaker 1: salmon like it. I don't know, you know, and not

1142
01:08:43,840 --> 01:08:47,080
Speaker 1: to the point where they introduced the common carp l

1143
01:08:47,160 --> 01:08:53,839
Speaker 1: wives smell. Carp was intentional, the cart was intentional. Brown trout,

1144
01:08:55,120 --> 01:09:00,519
Speaker 1: rainbow trout almost like like in some ways, like some

1145
01:09:00,600 --> 01:09:03,240
Speaker 1: of the biggest like ticket fish items in the Great Lakes,

1146
01:09:04,800 --> 01:09:06,880
Speaker 1: And I don't know how widely understood it is by

1147
01:09:06,880 --> 01:09:11,200
Speaker 1: people that live in those areas, the extent to which

1148
01:09:11,240 --> 01:09:17,360
Speaker 1: their lakes have become sort of an experimental aquarium. Yeah,

1149
01:09:17,640 --> 01:09:19,679
Speaker 1: I don't know if people make like a value judgment

1150
01:09:19,720 --> 01:09:23,519
Speaker 1: about it. We sure didn't growing up. I mean, the

1151
01:09:23,560 --> 01:09:25,439
Speaker 1: coolest fish you could catch is a big king. Yeah.

1152
01:09:25,520 --> 01:09:27,240
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, it's when we when we talked

1153
01:09:27,240 --> 01:09:30,439
Speaker 1: to who do we talk to about that? About how Um,

1154
01:09:30,479 --> 01:09:34,120
Speaker 1: it's just like the baseline that you're used to, the shifting,

1155
01:09:35,479 --> 01:09:38,599
Speaker 1: shifting baselines. That's what you came into, and so it's fine.

1156
01:09:38,840 --> 01:09:40,880
Speaker 1: But yeah, but if you were out trolling for kings

1157
01:09:40,920 --> 01:09:44,879
Speaker 1: and he caught a Laker, people be like, oh Laker, greaseball. Yeah, greaseball.

1158
01:09:45,400 --> 01:09:47,519
Speaker 1: So that's like the native fish which kind of like

1159
01:09:47,560 --> 01:09:49,559
Speaker 1: built this state, man and there was like a thriving

1160
01:09:49,560 --> 01:09:52,120
Speaker 1: commercial industry around that fish and all this history and

1161
01:09:52,120 --> 01:09:55,000
Speaker 1: the Native Americans that lived here like lived off that

1162
01:09:55,000 --> 01:09:57,160
Speaker 1: fish and relied on it, and it becomes where it

1163
01:09:57,160 --> 01:09:59,200
Speaker 1: comes up. You're like, I was hoping for the one

1164
01:09:59,240 --> 01:10:01,680
Speaker 1: that came on a t okay and got dumped up.

1165
01:10:01,920 --> 01:10:03,439
Speaker 1: I was hoping for the one that got jumped out

1166
01:10:03,439 --> 01:10:05,880
Speaker 1: of a barrel. You know. I was talking to some

1167
01:10:05,960 --> 01:10:10,840
Speaker 1: biologists from the Great Lakes recently and it was I

1168
01:10:10,920 --> 01:10:14,880
Speaker 1: was I was pleasantly surprised learned that the stars have

1169
01:10:15,000 --> 01:10:17,479
Speaker 1: sort of realigned for Lake Trout and they're having a

1170
01:10:17,479 --> 01:10:20,080
Speaker 1: bit of a comeback now, the native Lake Trout and

1171
01:10:20,120 --> 01:10:24,840
Speaker 1: the Great Lakes. That was nice to hear. Perception wise,

1172
01:10:23,880 --> 01:10:27,080
Speaker 1: population wise. I think perception wise too, I think they're

1173
01:10:27,080 --> 01:10:29,080
Speaker 1: a little more valued now than they used to be.

1174
01:10:30,400 --> 01:10:33,760
Speaker 1: What others If kings are down right now, pinks are

1175
01:10:33,880 --> 01:10:39,200
Speaker 1: up right now? Everything everything? Yeah, yeah, yeah, numbers are great,

1176
01:10:39,320 --> 01:10:42,439
Speaker 1: like the populations are. So it might not be that

1177
01:10:42,479 --> 01:10:44,759
Speaker 1: we just broke something that we won't be able to fix.

1178
01:10:46,200 --> 01:10:48,600
Speaker 1: It might be like kings, I mean some rivers we

1179
01:10:48,680 --> 01:10:55,799
Speaker 1: just broke, right Oh yeah, like I mean yeah, a

1180
01:10:55,560 --> 01:10:59,639
Speaker 1: lot a lot of them, Columbia, Sacramento, just that this broke.

1181
01:11:00,600 --> 01:11:02,439
Speaker 1: Is there a way? I know this isn't your business,

1182
01:11:02,439 --> 01:11:04,240
Speaker 1: but like, do you think that there's a way that

1183
01:11:04,640 --> 01:11:09,720
Speaker 1: uh to turn around some of the broke systems, particularly

1184
01:11:09,960 --> 01:11:15,080
Speaker 1: like some of the rivers that are so busted in California? Man,

1185
01:11:15,920 --> 01:11:20,400
Speaker 1: I there's a whole lot of people working on that. Uh,

1186
01:11:20,479 --> 01:11:24,280
Speaker 1: he's talking to one of them, because up here, man,

1187
01:11:24,320 --> 01:11:25,519
Speaker 1: it's like there, like it seems to be like a

1188
01:11:25,560 --> 01:11:30,640
Speaker 1: general optimism about salmon. Well, I mean, yeah, they I

1189
01:11:30,640 --> 01:11:37,600
Speaker 1: mean they're they're there, they're at at historic sort of

1190
01:11:37,600 --> 01:11:41,160
Speaker 1: a high point, and they're abundance right now. Um, the

1191
01:11:41,240 --> 01:11:45,599
Speaker 1: last couple of decades have been great for salmon in general,

1192
01:11:45,720 --> 01:11:48,080
Speaker 1: with the exception of Chinook having sort of a ten

1193
01:11:48,160 --> 01:11:53,800
Speaker 1: year slump and productivity. Yeah, let's say something happened and

1194
01:11:53,880 --> 01:11:58,479
Speaker 1: the ocean's got a just whatever, the ocean's got a

1195
01:11:58,520 --> 01:12:03,280
Speaker 1: degree or too warmer. Would that shift open up a

1196
01:12:03,360 --> 01:12:06,439
Speaker 1: lot of habitat to salmon that they're not currently using

1197
01:12:06,439 --> 01:12:10,280
Speaker 1: because it's too cold, Like, would you take with the

1198
01:12:10,320 --> 01:12:14,040
Speaker 1: whole show just kind of move north or the reasons

1199
01:12:14,040 --> 01:12:19,040
Speaker 1: that it wouldn't work like that. That's an oceanographer. Um no,

1200
01:12:19,200 --> 01:12:26,280
Speaker 1: I I think there are fish running rivers further north now,

1201
01:12:26,439 --> 01:12:30,080
Speaker 1: like into art of Alaska and presumably art of Canada.

1202
01:12:30,640 --> 01:12:34,040
Speaker 1: Um that maybe didn't have runs in the past. Yep.

1203
01:12:34,479 --> 01:12:36,360
Speaker 1: But see that gets another question I want to ask you,

1204
01:12:36,400 --> 01:12:38,400
Speaker 1: but expound on that for a minute. And you know,

1205
01:12:38,720 --> 01:12:41,720
Speaker 1: fisher salmon are certainly you know, moving further north in

1206
01:12:41,840 --> 01:12:45,960
Speaker 1: the Bearing Sea and beyond. But um, yeah, I don't

1207
01:12:45,960 --> 01:12:49,559
Speaker 1: think you can assume that that that you know, just

1208
01:12:49,560 --> 01:12:52,120
Speaker 1: just giving the shape of that basin, right, you're losing.

1209
01:12:52,200 --> 01:12:54,160
Speaker 1: If you just shift the entire envelope of salmon for

1210
01:12:54,240 --> 01:12:57,840
Speaker 1: the north, you have a lot less habitat to work with. Oh,

1211
01:12:57,880 --> 01:13:01,080
Speaker 1: I mean because it shrinks as it gets north. Yeah yeah,

1212
01:13:01,280 --> 01:13:05,880
Speaker 1: um so I'm just yeah, but the idea that they shift,

1213
01:13:05,960 --> 01:13:09,280
Speaker 1: like like you could have a northern river that right

1214
01:13:09,320 --> 01:13:11,840
Speaker 1: now doesn't get fish and it's just too cold or whatever.

1215
01:13:13,280 --> 01:13:15,479
Speaker 1: So let's say there was this idea that like the

1216
01:13:15,600 --> 01:13:17,760
Speaker 1: river would have fish turn up in it. That brings

1217
01:13:17,840 --> 01:13:20,559
Speaker 1: up a really interesting question is that their fidelities at

1218
01:13:20,680 --> 01:13:24,600
Speaker 1: their homes stream must not be entirely strict. It's not absolute, no,

1219
01:13:25,280 --> 01:13:27,519
Speaker 1: because how would have fish ever find a new river

1220
01:13:27,960 --> 01:13:29,920
Speaker 1: if he has to go back to where he was born?

1221
01:13:30,520 --> 01:13:34,320
Speaker 1: I mean go back fifteen thousand years and you know

1222
01:13:34,640 --> 01:13:39,479
Speaker 1: most of Alaska salmon habitats under ice. Yeah, so what

1223
01:13:39,520 --> 01:13:41,519
Speaker 1: accounts for that? That's a good point. So during like

1224
01:13:42,520 --> 01:13:45,080
Speaker 1: you know, the all the different glacial periods, Yeah, there

1225
01:13:45,120 --> 01:13:47,680
Speaker 1: was no salmon run because it was just yeah, yeah, So,

1226
01:13:47,760 --> 01:13:53,280
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, built into their sort of life

1227
01:13:53,320 --> 01:13:57,160
Speaker 1: history is a certain propensity for a small number of

1228
01:13:57,200 --> 01:14:01,360
Speaker 1: individuals to go to the wrong river. What percent do

1229
01:14:01,439 --> 01:14:03,879
Speaker 1: they know? It's small. It's small, and it varies by species,

1230
01:14:03,880 --> 01:14:05,559
Speaker 1: and it varies by it's it's it's sort of it's

1231
01:14:05,560 --> 01:14:08,160
Speaker 1: an adaptive trade. It's sort of bread into the system.

1232
01:14:08,240 --> 01:14:09,960
Speaker 1: You know. Oh, it's great that some of them would

1233
01:14:10,000 --> 01:14:12,320
Speaker 1: make a mistake. Oh yeah, yeah, it makes perfect sense.

1234
01:14:12,439 --> 01:14:15,360
Speaker 1: It allows for a little genetic mixing among population and

1235
01:14:15,439 --> 01:14:18,360
Speaker 1: allows for colonization a new habitats. So yeah, it's built

1236
01:14:18,400 --> 01:14:24,080
Speaker 1: into their life history. Do you remember in Sioux Sat Marie. Um, So,

1237
01:14:24,360 --> 01:14:26,519
Speaker 1: I'm gonna paint this picture for for the listeners. In

1238
01:14:26,600 --> 01:14:32,960
Speaker 1: Sue Saint Marie, Michigan, you have a the St. Mary's

1239
01:14:33,080 --> 01:14:36,639
Speaker 1: River drains Lake Superior and it falls I think two

1240
01:14:37,680 --> 01:14:41,080
Speaker 1: or eighteen feet or something. Something follows some number of

1241
01:14:41,080 --> 01:14:44,200
Speaker 1: feet more than ten through the Sioux Rapids and in

1242
01:14:44,280 --> 01:14:47,280
Speaker 1: the St. Mary's River flows down. After drain, Lake Superior

1243
01:14:47,320 --> 01:14:50,360
Speaker 1: flows down the St. Mary's River and flows into Lake Huron.

1244
01:14:52,840 --> 01:14:55,240
Speaker 1: In Sue St. Read there's a there's a hydro electric

1245
01:14:55,320 --> 01:15:01,800
Speaker 1: project where they cut a channel to funnel. Some of

1246
01:15:01,800 --> 01:15:04,759
Speaker 1: that water that's coming down the St. Mary's to flow

1247
01:15:04,840 --> 01:15:09,240
Speaker 1: through a hydro electric canal that then goes out and

1248
01:15:09,240 --> 01:15:12,920
Speaker 1: and pushes a bunch of electric turbans. So it's like

1249
01:15:12,920 --> 01:15:16,880
Speaker 1: they chiseled off a branch of the stream to power

1250
01:15:16,920 --> 01:15:19,639
Speaker 1: and hydro electric dam. It goes from above, the falls,

1251
01:15:20,120 --> 01:15:23,000
Speaker 1: loops around, it dumps, and below they're capitalizing on that

1252
01:15:23,360 --> 01:15:27,400
Speaker 1: whatever it is, fourteen to eighteen twenty, whatever hell number

1253
01:15:27,400 --> 01:15:29,559
Speaker 1: feed is. It capitalizes on that fall to get a

1254
01:15:29,560 --> 01:15:31,479
Speaker 1: good head of water going to push to turn the

1255
01:15:31,479 --> 01:15:34,920
Speaker 1: turbans and a dam and this damn has a bunch

1256
01:15:34,920 --> 01:15:36,840
Speaker 1: of turbans. But some of the terms that were given

1257
01:15:36,840 --> 01:15:39,880
Speaker 1: over to a fish lab. You know where I'm going

1258
01:15:39,920 --> 01:15:44,880
Speaker 1: with this, And all the turbans or tunnels would have names,

1259
01:15:44,920 --> 01:15:48,519
Speaker 1: and there's one through whatever to hell, and they would

1260
01:15:49,000 --> 01:15:52,040
Speaker 1: rear atlantics as a part of this experimental project to

1261
01:15:52,080 --> 01:15:54,320
Speaker 1: like establish Atlantics in the Great Lakes. They would rear

1262
01:15:54,360 --> 01:15:58,599
Speaker 1: Atlantics in a certain in a certain tunnel, like it's

1263
01:15:58,720 --> 01:16:02,599
Speaker 1: number one. He's on the end of the building. Yeah,

1264
01:16:02,640 --> 01:16:04,080
Speaker 1: And you could go there and we would go there

1265
01:16:04,120 --> 01:16:06,559
Speaker 1: to fish whitefish, and you could go and look and

1266
01:16:06,600 --> 01:16:09,840
Speaker 1: you could just see the Atlantics that were returning, and

1267
01:16:09,880 --> 01:16:14,280
Speaker 1: they would return to the fish lab. Do you remember this, Yeah,

1268
01:16:14,280 --> 01:16:16,760
Speaker 1: they returned to that tunnel. I mean they go they

1269
01:16:16,840 --> 01:16:19,040
Speaker 1: nose into a lot of those tunnels, but they were

1270
01:16:19,160 --> 01:16:22,040
Speaker 1: like the one that they were coming from. You would

1271
01:16:22,040 --> 01:16:24,599
Speaker 1: look in the like wait that they'd be like ten

1272
01:16:24,680 --> 01:16:28,800
Speaker 1: and that one three in the next one. Yeah, and

1273
01:16:28,840 --> 01:16:32,519
Speaker 1: then maybe like one in the next one, and you

1274
01:16:32,560 --> 01:16:35,360
Speaker 1: can sort of see like how good they were hitting

1275
01:16:35,360 --> 01:16:39,519
Speaker 1: the right spot whatever they were smelling or keying it's scent. Yeah,

1276
01:16:39,640 --> 01:16:41,120
Speaker 1: and then there was some other ones who were like

1277
01:16:41,200 --> 01:16:46,360
Speaker 1: close but not quite yeah yeah, shifting around down there. Um. Yeah,

1278
01:16:46,479 --> 01:16:50,840
Speaker 1: these are separated by yards. Yeah, yeah, yeah, No, that

1279
01:16:50,840 --> 01:16:55,439
Speaker 1: that they Ah, there's a a window of time when

1280
01:16:55,479 --> 01:16:59,400
Speaker 1: those sam and or young were they sort of memorize

1281
01:16:59,479 --> 01:17:02,479
Speaker 1: or imprint the scent of their stream and that's all.

1282
01:17:02,520 --> 01:17:05,280
Speaker 1: That's the last, you know, bit of migrating they do.

1283
01:17:05,360 --> 01:17:07,840
Speaker 1: They're doing it by their nose. What's the first bit

1284
01:17:07,840 --> 01:17:10,960
Speaker 1: of migrating they do. I was sort of like, I

1285
01:17:11,000 --> 01:17:13,519
Speaker 1: don't understand biologically how it works, but it's sort of

1286
01:17:13,560 --> 01:17:22,040
Speaker 1: like a um they're triangulating their position based on like

1287
01:17:22,120 --> 01:17:24,599
Speaker 1: sun angle and magnetism and things like that. So they

1288
01:17:24,600 --> 01:17:26,880
Speaker 1: have sort of a I think of it was like

1289
01:17:26,880 --> 01:17:28,960
Speaker 1: a mental map, and they're using that to get in

1290
01:17:29,000 --> 01:17:32,120
Speaker 1: the rough vicinity and then at some point their nose

1291
01:17:32,160 --> 01:17:34,160
Speaker 1: more or less takes over. So if you went on

1292
01:17:34,320 --> 01:17:36,559
Speaker 1: the high is it believe that if you went on

1293
01:17:36,600 --> 01:17:39,280
Speaker 1: the high seas? Okay, you have a you have a

1294
01:17:39,320 --> 01:17:42,000
Speaker 1: salmon that came out of a specific river, So it

1295
01:17:42,040 --> 01:17:44,600
Speaker 1: came out of the Kenai River and he's out on

1296
01:17:44,600 --> 01:17:46,680
Speaker 1: the high season, and you wouldn't caught him in blindfolded

1297
01:17:46,760 --> 01:17:51,400
Speaker 1: him and then helly, helly lifted him two miles and

1298
01:17:51,439 --> 01:17:54,479
Speaker 1: put him back in the ocean. Do you feel like

1299
01:17:54,479 --> 01:17:57,920
Speaker 1: he'd turned up with the same river? Oh, because it

1300
01:17:57,960 --> 01:18:02,120
Speaker 1: can't be backtracking. Where did you catch him? I'm just saying,

1301
01:18:02,120 --> 01:18:03,760
Speaker 1: you pick him out of the high seas somewhere and

1302
01:18:03,800 --> 01:18:08,280
Speaker 1: blind in the middle of the ocean, and oh, but

1303
01:18:08,320 --> 01:18:12,200
Speaker 1: then you un blindfold them, you have no problem. So

1304
01:18:12,200 --> 01:18:15,320
Speaker 1: it's not like it's not like he remembers his route. No, No,

1305
01:18:15,320 --> 01:18:17,920
Speaker 1: it's something else. No, he has like he has some

1306
01:18:18,000 --> 01:18:22,559
Speaker 1: way of fixing his position on a mental map. Yeah. Man,

1307
01:18:22,640 --> 01:18:26,200
Speaker 1: we are we studying that right now. How they there's

1308
01:18:26,240 --> 01:18:28,120
Speaker 1: a lot of work has been done on this. Yeah,

1309
01:18:28,479 --> 01:18:35,240
Speaker 1: I read about the magnetism stuff and yeah, it's fascinating, man,

1310
01:18:35,840 --> 01:18:37,400
Speaker 1: you know. And then they work on it with turtles

1311
01:18:37,439 --> 01:18:40,400
Speaker 1: a lot. Okay, how do those turtles know to find

1312
01:18:40,400 --> 01:18:43,080
Speaker 1: that beach? You know? On the scent? And there were

1313
01:18:43,120 --> 01:18:46,040
Speaker 1: some cool studies done in the Great Lakes back I

1314
01:18:46,080 --> 01:18:48,800
Speaker 1: want to sixties or maybe seventies, probably when they were

1315
01:18:48,920 --> 01:18:54,280
Speaker 1: first introducing salmon there um. But they held these young

1316
01:18:54,400 --> 01:19:01,880
Speaker 1: salmon um in a they I think they held them

1317
01:19:01,880 --> 01:19:04,240
Speaker 1: in a stream and they dripped some certain chemical in

1318
01:19:04,320 --> 01:19:09,640
Speaker 1: that stream, and though salmon imprinted on that smell, and

1319
01:19:09,680 --> 01:19:12,760
Speaker 1: they released those salmon and then roam around the Great

1320
01:19:12,840 --> 01:19:14,519
Speaker 1: Lakes for a couple of years, and when they're salmon

1321
01:19:14,560 --> 01:19:17,679
Speaker 1: were maturing and coming back, they went like a few

1322
01:19:17,680 --> 01:19:20,679
Speaker 1: miles down the beach and dripped that same chemical into

1323
01:19:20,720 --> 01:19:24,840
Speaker 1: the wrong stream, and all of salmon went to the

1324
01:19:24,880 --> 01:19:27,760
Speaker 1: wrong stream where the chemicals being dripped. So when they're

1325
01:19:27,800 --> 01:19:30,360
Speaker 1: closing in, they're closing in, they just pick up that

1326
01:19:30,439 --> 01:19:37,800
Speaker 1: scent and follow it in. Yeah, blows your mind. Yeah,

1327
01:19:37,800 --> 01:19:41,200
Speaker 1: how it can be so unique each area, you know. Oh,

1328
01:19:41,240 --> 01:19:44,439
Speaker 1: but you figure all the different ions, you know, dissolved,

1329
01:19:44,439 --> 01:19:46,360
Speaker 1: all the different types of ions from all the different

1330
01:19:46,439 --> 01:19:48,240
Speaker 1: rocks and soil and everything in that water. It's like

1331
01:19:48,240 --> 01:19:51,200
Speaker 1: they had this whole portfolio of concentrations and like they

1332
01:19:51,280 --> 01:19:54,519
Speaker 1: just learned that smell. You know, Can you real quick

1333
01:19:54,560 --> 01:19:57,360
Speaker 1: talk about uh, this is the last thing I have

1334
01:19:57,439 --> 01:20:02,400
Speaker 1: you explained. Can you talk about the function of moving

1335
01:20:03,320 --> 01:20:10,360
Speaker 1: marine resources? How salmon is a is a mechanism that

1336
01:20:10,479 --> 01:20:19,519
Speaker 1: moves marine resources in land. Yeah. Yeah, they're um a

1337
01:20:19,640 --> 01:20:25,360
Speaker 1: sort of vector to move um energy and nutrients up

1338
01:20:25,840 --> 01:20:32,120
Speaker 1: rivers um. Like we said earlier, in in high latitudes,

1339
01:20:32,479 --> 01:20:36,840
Speaker 1: fresh waters are much less productive than ocean waters. And

1340
01:20:37,080 --> 01:20:38,880
Speaker 1: salmon did this cool trick where they go out to

1341
01:20:38,880 --> 01:20:40,680
Speaker 1: the sea and it's not intentional, it's just to buy

1342
01:20:40,760 --> 01:20:44,519
Speaker 1: product of their life history. But they go out to

1343
01:20:44,600 --> 01:20:46,719
Speaker 1: sea and they they put on a bunch of weight

1344
01:20:47,040 --> 01:20:51,880
Speaker 1: and then they swim you know, upstream and and and

1345
01:20:51,960 --> 01:20:55,120
Speaker 1: bring with them all of this fat and protein and

1346
01:20:55,240 --> 01:20:58,480
Speaker 1: phosphorus and nitrogen and all the different forms of fertilizer

1347
01:20:58,560 --> 01:21:02,919
Speaker 1: that the fish that rear in those streams and insects

1348
01:21:02,920 --> 01:21:06,040
Speaker 1: and the algae, and so they're sort of fertilizing that stream,

1349
01:21:06,040 --> 01:21:09,439
Speaker 1: feeding bears, feeding birds. Yeah yeah, and that that that

1350
01:21:09,600 --> 01:21:12,559
Speaker 1: river is you know, it's flowing is taking spending all

1351
01:21:12,640 --> 01:21:15,360
Speaker 1: this time taking nutrients from the landscape and bringing them

1352
01:21:15,360 --> 01:21:17,080
Speaker 1: out to the ocean and then salm and sort of

1353
01:21:17,120 --> 01:21:20,960
Speaker 1: reverse that flow once a year and and bring in

1354
01:21:21,040 --> 01:21:24,320
Speaker 1: you know, in cases with big runs, many many tons

1355
01:21:24,360 --> 01:21:28,160
Speaker 1: of nutrients back to the land. Um. Yeah. And it's

1356
01:21:28,320 --> 01:21:32,160
Speaker 1: definitely it's it has a lot of um sort of

1357
01:21:32,200 --> 01:21:35,400
Speaker 1: feedbacks within the within the ecosystem in terms of feeding.

1358
01:21:36,360 --> 01:21:38,479
Speaker 1: So do you feel like there's probably places where if

1359
01:21:38,479 --> 01:21:41,200
Speaker 1: you eliminated the salmon, you could you would you could

1360
01:21:41,240 --> 01:21:47,759
Speaker 1: feasibly trigger a sort of ecological collapse. Um, yeah, it would.

1361
01:21:48,080 --> 01:21:51,040
Speaker 1: You know, it would certainly be bad for you know,

1362
01:21:52,960 --> 01:21:57,200
Speaker 1: large mobile consumers that move around and eat salmon, like

1363
01:21:57,280 --> 01:22:02,320
Speaker 1: bears and you know, eagles another another scavin Jery Yeah. Um.

1364
01:22:02,360 --> 01:22:05,599
Speaker 1: And it's some of the work that I've been involved

1365
01:22:05,640 --> 01:22:10,640
Speaker 1: with the showing that um juvenile salmon that are exposed

1366
01:22:10,720 --> 01:22:16,160
Speaker 1: to um large volumes of salmon eggs and other types

1367
01:22:16,200 --> 01:22:18,880
Speaker 1: of resources will grow faster than those that don't have

1368
01:22:19,000 --> 01:22:21,679
Speaker 1: access to as much you know, salmon eggs and flesh

1369
01:22:21,680 --> 01:22:26,240
Speaker 1: and other marine resources. And there's a whole the juveniles

1370
01:22:26,240 --> 01:22:30,040
Speaker 1: are eating, the are directly feeding off the growing the

1371
01:22:30,040 --> 01:22:32,599
Speaker 1: carcasses of the growing Yeah, the carcasses and the eggs,

1372
01:22:32,680 --> 01:22:34,439
Speaker 1: you know. And yeah, there's been a whole lot of

1373
01:22:34,439 --> 01:22:37,519
Speaker 1: work in different places around Alaska looking at different aspects

1374
01:22:37,560 --> 01:22:40,920
Speaker 1: of this. But um, oh, like for instance, out in

1375
01:22:41,280 --> 01:22:44,559
Speaker 1: Bristol Bay and southwest Alaska, where you know, there are

1376
01:22:44,920 --> 01:22:49,040
Speaker 1: trophy rainbow populations out there that are um fished by

1377
01:22:49,040 --> 01:22:51,360
Speaker 1: anglers from all over the world, you know, from the

1378
01:22:51,360 --> 01:22:53,280
Speaker 1: state at high end lodges, and it's a it's one

1379
01:22:53,320 --> 01:22:58,280
Speaker 1: of Alaska's sort of premier trophy sport fisheries. But um

1380
01:22:58,320 --> 01:23:01,599
Speaker 1: those trophy rainbow trout out there get you know, a

1381
01:23:01,680 --> 01:23:07,400
Speaker 1: huge fraction of their their annual nutritional intake just by

1382
01:23:07,439 --> 01:23:13,200
Speaker 1: eating salmon eggs. It's a a huge diet item for them.

1383
01:23:13,240 --> 01:23:15,320
Speaker 1: And it comes to a pretty short period of time.

1384
01:23:15,360 --> 01:23:17,559
Speaker 1: You know, it's our late summer early falls are getting

1385
01:23:17,560 --> 01:23:20,440
Speaker 1: most of their caloric intake for the whole year. Yeah,

1386
01:23:20,960 --> 01:23:23,320
Speaker 1: just chill out. This chill out, water gets cold or

1387
01:23:23,360 --> 01:23:26,120
Speaker 1: metabolism slows down and they just kind of hang on

1388
01:23:26,160 --> 01:23:31,360
Speaker 1: to that wait, you know, until the next year. Get

1389
01:23:31,400 --> 01:23:35,200
Speaker 1: more questions when those salmon are out in the ocean.

1390
01:23:35,240 --> 01:23:37,400
Speaker 1: I believe there's a term for this for two different

1391
01:23:37,400 --> 01:23:39,559
Speaker 1: types of fish out in the ocean, ones that are

1392
01:23:39,600 --> 01:23:44,280
Speaker 1: just like constantly moving and constantly eating, versus one that

1393
01:23:44,400 --> 01:23:50,240
Speaker 1: actually has a resting time. Do you understand my question? Yeah,

1394
01:23:50,400 --> 01:23:54,800
Speaker 1: kind of changes the flesh too, right, the type of flesh. Yeah,

1395
01:23:55,000 --> 01:23:57,800
Speaker 1: but salmon are all on the same page with Yeah,

1396
01:23:58,160 --> 01:24:03,840
Speaker 1: what's that called like a I mean, yeah, I get

1397
01:24:03,920 --> 01:24:08,479
Speaker 1: cruising pelagic fish. They're mobile, they're always swimming. They never

1398
01:24:08,520 --> 01:24:11,000
Speaker 1: go down to the bottom and sit there. No, they're

1399
01:24:11,000 --> 01:24:13,200
Speaker 1: not gonna go down like a halibit or rock fish

1400
01:24:13,240 --> 01:24:15,360
Speaker 1: and hang out on the bottom. Yeah, but they're they're

1401
01:24:15,360 --> 01:24:20,679
Speaker 1: a roving epiplagic predator. He's just eating just constantly. I mean,

1402
01:24:20,680 --> 01:24:23,880
Speaker 1: it's just like that's just slack off at certain times.

1403
01:24:23,920 --> 01:24:26,639
Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean they're they're you know, they're they're

1404
01:24:26,640 --> 01:24:30,080
Speaker 1: a yeah, an actively swimming mobile fish. They never sleep

1405
01:24:30,160 --> 01:24:34,880
Speaker 1: like how we perceive of sleep. Huh. Mask Oh, I

1406
01:24:34,920 --> 01:24:36,960
Speaker 1: thought you were making a statement because this is something

1407
01:24:37,040 --> 01:24:39,519
Speaker 1: I've never really looked into. Yeah, but I mean they

1408
01:24:39,600 --> 01:24:42,559
Speaker 1: never go they can't go like lay down. I guess

1409
01:24:42,560 --> 01:24:44,280
Speaker 1: you're right. Yeah, you're like what we used to go

1410
01:24:44,280 --> 01:24:47,240
Speaker 1: as kids, gigging frogs. I shouldn't say this because now

1411
01:24:47,280 --> 01:24:48,360
Speaker 1: we didn't know what. You're not supposed to do it,

1412
01:24:48,400 --> 01:24:49,799
Speaker 1: but you can't do it the harder. You're not supposed

1413
01:24:49,840 --> 01:24:51,880
Speaker 1: to gig frogs and missig with artificial light. But we'll

1414
01:24:51,920 --> 01:24:54,520
Speaker 1: go out with artificial lights. Remember to look for bullfrogs

1415
01:24:54,520 --> 01:24:56,760
Speaker 1: and crayfish. That's perfect legal. We'd go out to do

1416
01:24:56,800 --> 01:24:58,960
Speaker 1: that and you'd catch bluegirls were like that blue is

1417
01:24:58,960 --> 01:25:03,040
Speaker 1: a sleepy you cast blueos just like completely zoned out.

1418
01:25:04,760 --> 01:25:07,000
Speaker 1: You almost like walk up and grabl Yeah, you know.

1419
01:25:07,080 --> 01:25:11,320
Speaker 1: I around the shack. I have seen salmon where they're

1420
01:25:11,400 --> 01:25:14,040
Speaker 1: sitting at the surface still with their fins out of

1421
01:25:14,040 --> 01:25:21,040
Speaker 1: the water. Sometimes I don't maybe that's sleeping, yeah, but

1422
01:25:21,160 --> 01:25:24,439
Speaker 1: they are. They tend to use the top of the water,

1423
01:25:24,640 --> 01:25:27,080
Speaker 1: the light, the lit version of the water. Oh yeah,

1424
01:25:27,080 --> 01:25:29,080
Speaker 1: even when they're out at in the middle of the ocean. Yeah,

1425
01:25:29,120 --> 01:25:31,639
Speaker 1: they're just using the top of the water column. Yeah,

1426
01:25:32,040 --> 01:25:36,400
Speaker 1: not down deep dirt. Final questions. I got a couple

1427
01:25:36,439 --> 01:25:40,400
Speaker 1: actually lay it on me man um so finn in

1428
01:25:40,520 --> 01:25:43,360
Speaker 1: I did. I did a little person in years ago,

1429
01:25:44,040 --> 01:25:47,559
Speaker 1: and we'd always set around in a finning group and jumpers,

1430
01:25:48,320 --> 01:25:50,840
Speaker 1: And what's the purpose of both of those when they're

1431
01:25:50,920 --> 01:25:53,320
Speaker 1: kind of like close to it. Oh, like, what are

1432
01:25:53,360 --> 01:25:56,240
Speaker 1: they accomplishing with that behavior when they're all pooled up

1433
01:25:56,280 --> 01:25:57,880
Speaker 1: with their fins out of the water, and what are

1434
01:25:57,880 --> 01:26:00,439
Speaker 1: they do when they jump? Yeah, Like I've heard various

1435
01:26:00,520 --> 01:26:03,000
Speaker 1: opinions of what they're trying to do. Yeah, I don't

1436
01:26:03,040 --> 01:26:05,920
Speaker 1: even have one. Yeah behavior, you know one of the

1437
01:26:05,920 --> 01:26:15,120
Speaker 1: things people says. I mean, how do you answer that question?

1438
01:26:15,240 --> 01:26:18,160
Speaker 1: I guess yeah, yeah, No, it's cool to be around

1439
01:26:18,160 --> 01:26:23,080
Speaker 1: at when like when you really know that there's it's

1440
01:26:23,080 --> 01:26:24,960
Speaker 1: cool to be around all that life. You know, you

1441
01:26:25,000 --> 01:26:26,719
Speaker 1: can just look out there and see salmon fen sticking

1442
01:26:26,760 --> 01:26:28,599
Speaker 1: up at the water and his jumpers everywhere, and there's

1443
01:26:28,720 --> 01:26:32,200
Speaker 1: you know, it's way larger below. Yeah. Yeah, that's a

1444
01:26:32,240 --> 01:26:38,960
Speaker 1: good point. But is that them just like the flow? Yeah,

1445
01:26:39,280 --> 01:26:41,960
Speaker 1: So there's not a good theory about why somebody might

1446
01:26:42,000 --> 01:26:44,400
Speaker 1: have one. I just don't. Yeah, it's not a test

1447
01:26:44,479 --> 01:26:47,160
Speaker 1: that theory. Yeah, it's I think it's a difficult one

1448
01:26:47,160 --> 01:26:51,280
Speaker 1: to test. And then the other one I really want

1449
01:26:51,280 --> 01:26:54,240
Speaker 1: to ask about the bourbon leech, but that when it

1450
01:26:54,360 --> 01:26:56,640
Speaker 1: makes sense, a bourbon with a parasite do look like

1451
01:26:56,640 --> 01:27:01,880
Speaker 1: a leech? Probably was okay? Cool? And then one more

1452
01:27:01,880 --> 01:27:04,400
Speaker 1: and this one's a little more philosophical. There may not

1453
01:27:04,439 --> 01:27:06,479
Speaker 1: be an answer to it. But just because you've had

1454
01:27:06,520 --> 01:27:09,360
Speaker 1: such a I mean as a fish biologists, that intimate

1455
01:27:09,880 --> 01:27:13,640
Speaker 1: relationship with each species, do you find yourself prone to

1456
01:27:13,760 --> 01:27:17,040
Speaker 1: be particular to one of those five that we talked

1457
01:27:17,040 --> 01:27:20,479
Speaker 1: about in your region of study? There's that not a

1458
01:27:20,520 --> 01:27:23,479
Speaker 1: fair question, no, I yeah, I mean professionally, I really

1459
01:27:23,520 --> 01:27:27,080
Speaker 1: like ho ho because they're just everywhere, and they're abundant,

1460
01:27:27,360 --> 01:27:29,160
Speaker 1: and they live in fresh water a long time and

1461
01:27:29,200 --> 01:27:32,280
Speaker 1: I work in fresh water, and um, yeah, I think

1462
01:27:32,280 --> 01:27:36,160
Speaker 1: they're super cool fish, but um cool, and and that's

1463
01:27:36,280 --> 01:27:39,479
Speaker 1: prioritized over like the angling of them or eating of them.

1464
01:27:39,479 --> 01:27:43,240
Speaker 1: It's like their activity as as all it all works together,

1465
01:27:43,360 --> 01:27:45,160
Speaker 1: you know. I got a thing for coh and part

1466
01:27:45,160 --> 01:27:49,600
Speaker 1: of yeah, exactly exactly, it's all it's all what I

1467
01:27:49,680 --> 01:27:52,960
Speaker 1: root for man, Yeah, Angland and my professional life. I'll

1468
01:27:53,120 --> 01:27:56,599
Speaker 1: sort of get intertwined, you know. Um. But yeah, I really,

1469
01:27:56,760 --> 01:27:59,719
Speaker 1: I really do have a thing for I really love

1470
01:27:59,800 --> 01:28:02,720
Speaker 1: cut and kings too. Um. I'm fascinated by them and

1471
01:28:03,000 --> 01:28:05,880
Speaker 1: it's just a huge accomplishment to me to catch on

1472
01:28:05,960 --> 01:28:11,400
Speaker 1: those thing, especially out in saltwater. I love it. Um,

1473
01:28:11,560 --> 01:28:13,479
Speaker 1: here's my hes that cool on you. Yeah, it's great,

1474
01:28:13,520 --> 01:28:15,160
Speaker 1: cause I got one last thing I forgot to ask about.

1475
01:28:15,200 --> 01:28:17,559
Speaker 1: This is gonna suffice as my concluder, and you can

1476
01:28:17,560 --> 01:28:20,160
Speaker 1: do a concluder if you want. You told me an

1477
01:28:20,160 --> 01:28:24,800
Speaker 1: interesting thing one time where you're saying that, um, it's

1478
01:28:24,880 --> 01:28:29,840
Speaker 1: possible to have or it's maybe possible. It's an idea

1479
01:28:29,920 --> 01:28:33,920
Speaker 1: that could be entertained. That's possible to have too many

1480
01:28:34,000 --> 01:28:38,840
Speaker 1: fish go up a river. Yeah, because you would think

1481
01:28:38,880 --> 01:28:41,599
Speaker 1: like the more fish the better, like bring them on,

1482
01:28:41,640 --> 01:28:43,320
Speaker 1: bring them on up the river. But there's a point

1483
01:28:43,360 --> 01:28:46,120
Speaker 1: at which you might get like, um, diminishing returns. Can

1484
01:28:46,160 --> 01:28:48,280
Speaker 1: you can talk about that for a minute. This is

1485
01:28:48,280 --> 01:28:50,639
Speaker 1: more of a theoretical concept or if it has like

1486
01:28:50,640 --> 01:28:53,800
Speaker 1: like no, no, it has some applicable, it has some application,

1487
01:28:53,920 --> 01:28:57,439
Speaker 1: and there's probably there some data behind it. Um. But

1488
01:28:57,640 --> 01:29:00,479
Speaker 1: you know in terms of the bears and the eagles,

1489
01:29:01,920 --> 01:29:06,960
Speaker 1: you know there can't be too many salmon. Um. But yeah,

1490
01:29:07,240 --> 01:29:13,760
Speaker 1: so that's actually a really big can of worms. He

1491
01:29:13,840 --> 01:29:17,679
Speaker 1: just opens on it. I start with this, but um,

1492
01:29:18,280 --> 01:29:23,439
Speaker 1: can I tell you what I understood you to be saying? No, no, yeah,

1493
01:29:23,520 --> 01:29:25,880
Speaker 1: go ahead, go ahead, Okay, we were out one time.

1494
01:29:26,000 --> 01:29:28,479
Speaker 1: I don't know you. I was just hanging around with

1495
01:29:28,479 --> 01:29:30,000
Speaker 1: you and we were doing some work and we were

1496
01:29:30,000 --> 01:29:34,400
Speaker 1: out checking mental traps. I think you were like we

1497
01:29:34,400 --> 01:29:36,400
Speaker 1: were out checking mento traps because you were out trapping

1498
01:29:36,400 --> 01:29:40,240
Speaker 1: baby co hos in the river, remember this, And you

1499
01:29:40,320 --> 01:29:43,960
Speaker 1: were looking at things of like how, how what's the

1500
01:29:44,040 --> 01:29:48,800
Speaker 1: density and what's the tolerance of competition of co host

1501
01:29:48,800 --> 01:29:50,880
Speaker 1: when we're spending all this time, when they're spending these

1502
01:29:50,920 --> 01:29:54,680
Speaker 1: two years in the stream where they were born. And

1503
01:29:54,720 --> 01:29:58,560
Speaker 1: you were saying that you're telling this idea that, um,

1504
01:29:58,600 --> 01:30:03,519
Speaker 1: it could be that you could have less cohoes, less

1505
01:30:03,520 --> 01:30:08,240
Speaker 1: cohole babies in the river, but they're all so much

1506
01:30:08,240 --> 01:30:12,920
Speaker 1: more healthier because they're not suffering from too much competition.

1507
01:30:13,320 --> 01:30:15,280
Speaker 1: And you could have just like trying an idea out

1508
01:30:16,320 --> 01:30:20,559
Speaker 1: and maybe like sending out fifty that are super fit

1509
01:30:22,479 --> 01:30:26,519
Speaker 1: and had like a great resource of food could in

1510
01:30:26,560 --> 01:30:35,240
Speaker 1: the end be better than emaciated. Weren't they weren't doing good? Yeah? Yeah, yeah,

1511
01:30:35,280 --> 01:30:43,679
Speaker 1: so yeah you'd want it with a better healthier return. Yes, yes, so, um,

1512
01:30:43,720 --> 01:30:48,640
Speaker 1: you know, a river of any size has a finite

1513
01:30:49,040 --> 01:30:58,880
Speaker 1: amount of spawning and rearing habitat um. And so when

1514
01:30:59,439 --> 01:31:05,280
Speaker 1: you get to a point where there are. If you

1515
01:31:05,280 --> 01:31:08,439
Speaker 1: have exceptionally large run and lots and lots and lots

1516
01:31:08,439 --> 01:31:11,640
Speaker 1: of spawners, you get a new position where you have

1517
01:31:11,680 --> 01:31:14,160
Speaker 1: a wave of fish come in, they start building dusts,

1518
01:31:14,200 --> 01:31:16,920
Speaker 1: they spawn there, and then the next wave of fish

1519
01:31:16,960 --> 01:31:19,680
Speaker 1: comes in, digsolo's nuts up, lays more nuts on top

1520
01:31:19,720 --> 01:31:22,760
Speaker 1: of them. Right, And so only the last batch of

1521
01:31:22,800 --> 01:31:25,800
Speaker 1: fish that spawn they're are gonna really have any output. Right,

1522
01:31:25,840 --> 01:31:28,360
Speaker 1: you had a lot of excess, I mean, so they

1523
01:31:28,360 --> 01:31:31,519
Speaker 1: could excavate and destroy each other's nests. Yeah. Yeah, And

1524
01:31:31,680 --> 01:31:34,640
Speaker 1: in the in the trade they call it nests superimposition.

1525
01:31:34,640 --> 01:31:37,880
Speaker 1: They're just building nuts on top of other nests. And

1526
01:31:38,120 --> 01:31:40,880
Speaker 1: the thought is that those you could have harvested a

1527
01:31:40,880 --> 01:31:43,800
Speaker 1: lot of those fish without having any negative impact on

1528
01:31:43,840 --> 01:31:47,240
Speaker 1: the return. But the same thing plays out too in

1529
01:31:47,479 --> 01:31:51,360
Speaker 1: the rearing habitat, especially for those fish, the species that

1530
01:31:51,439 --> 01:31:54,439
Speaker 1: rear in fresh water. Right. So so if you have

1531
01:31:54,600 --> 01:31:58,639
Speaker 1: way too many and they start with the word term

1532
01:31:58,720 --> 01:32:02,280
Speaker 1: too many, I'm already seeing how where I messed it up.

1533
01:32:02,840 --> 01:32:05,240
Speaker 1: So if you have a really really large sock I

1534
01:32:05,400 --> 01:32:07,200
Speaker 1: run and you have a lot of spawners that are

1535
01:32:07,240 --> 01:32:12,160
Speaker 1: all producing fry that then migrating to a rearing lake,

1536
01:32:12,600 --> 01:32:15,600
Speaker 1: and the lake has this sort of the scenario that

1537
01:32:15,600 --> 01:32:17,160
Speaker 1: you're describing with the code, and many go. You have

1538
01:32:17,200 --> 01:32:20,720
Speaker 1: a you know, a huge biomass, a huge number of

1539
01:32:20,800 --> 01:32:24,400
Speaker 1: juveniles there, and the per capita food resources that are low,

1540
01:32:24,439 --> 01:32:26,519
Speaker 1: and there's a lot of competition, and you know that

1541
01:32:26,760 --> 01:32:30,840
Speaker 1: those space can't all get big, right, So yeah, there's

1542
01:32:30,840 --> 01:32:33,720
Speaker 1: So that's kind of how salm and are managed in

1543
01:32:33,760 --> 01:32:38,000
Speaker 1: Alaska and elsewhere. They they take a lot of a

1544
01:32:38,120 --> 01:32:40,800
Speaker 1: long time series of data where for a given river

1545
01:32:41,479 --> 01:32:43,600
Speaker 1: um they observe how many salmon are going in the

1546
01:32:43,720 --> 01:32:47,400
Speaker 1: river to spawn, and then from that given brood year,

1547
01:32:47,720 --> 01:32:51,240
Speaker 1: in subsequent years, how many salmon come back. And they

1548
01:32:51,479 --> 01:32:55,320
Speaker 1: so over every spawning run they calculate how many subsequent

1549
01:32:55,360 --> 01:32:58,320
Speaker 1: returns were produced, and over a long period of time,

1550
01:32:58,360 --> 01:33:00,760
Speaker 1: you can sort of develop this empirical lationship between the

1551
01:33:00,800 --> 01:33:03,800
Speaker 1: number of spawners that you let into a river and

1552
01:33:03,840 --> 01:33:10,479
Speaker 1: the number of salmon to come back later from the spawners.

1553
01:33:10,680 --> 01:33:12,920
Speaker 1: At least in theory, you'll see sort of you know,

1554
01:33:12,960 --> 01:33:16,040
Speaker 1: that relationship. If you picture graph with you know, the

1555
01:33:16,080 --> 01:33:18,559
Speaker 1: number of spawners on the X axis. You know, had

1556
01:33:18,600 --> 01:33:20,519
Speaker 1: low numbers of spawners, you can get a lot of

1557
01:33:20,600 --> 01:33:23,680
Speaker 1: returns right, but that levels off eventually. You can at

1558
01:33:23,720 --> 01:33:25,920
Speaker 1: some point, you can put more spawners into the system,

1559
01:33:26,200 --> 01:33:28,519
Speaker 1: but you don't get back a lot of fish because

1560
01:33:28,520 --> 01:33:31,439
Speaker 1: of competition for nests and competition for food and that

1561
01:33:31,520 --> 01:33:33,080
Speaker 1: sort of thing. So you might be looking at a

1562
01:33:33,200 --> 01:33:37,719
Speaker 1: river thinking, we're gonna have let's just use simple numbers,

1563
01:33:38,520 --> 01:33:42,080
Speaker 1: a hundred fish are gonna um come back up here

1564
01:33:43,479 --> 01:33:48,799
Speaker 1: next year, and we might be able to harvest half

1565
01:33:48,800 --> 01:33:50,400
Speaker 1: of all the fish to come up, and you're still

1566
01:33:50,479 --> 01:33:54,160
Speaker 1: gonna have a hundred comeback or some such. Yeah, And

1567
01:33:54,200 --> 01:33:57,120
Speaker 1: that's that's a good rule of thumb actually, Like and

1568
01:33:58,360 --> 01:34:01,040
Speaker 1: most of Alaska's fish or east I think over the

1569
01:34:01,120 --> 01:34:07,439
Speaker 1: long term, um about you know, maybe forty six of

1570
01:34:07,520 --> 01:34:10,880
Speaker 1: the returning adults and these things only spawn one so

1571
01:34:10,880 --> 01:34:13,160
Speaker 1: they're they're being harvested before they ever have a chance

1572
01:34:13,200 --> 01:34:16,120
Speaker 1: to spawn. But every every single year, every single run

1573
01:34:16,200 --> 01:34:19,840
Speaker 1: you know about you know, roughly half give or take

1574
01:34:20,680 --> 01:34:24,879
Speaker 1: of the population is killed before as a chance to spawn. Um.

1575
01:34:24,920 --> 01:34:27,080
Speaker 1: But that's sort of a testament to the productivity of

1576
01:34:27,120 --> 01:34:28,920
Speaker 1: these fish because this has been going on, you know,

1577
01:34:28,960 --> 01:34:31,439
Speaker 1: in Alaska for over a hundred years in most places,

1578
01:34:31,479 --> 01:34:34,400
Speaker 1: and those fishes keep coming back and coming back and there.

1579
01:34:34,439 --> 01:34:38,720
Speaker 1: You know, they're at um. You know, populations are for

1580
01:34:38,760 --> 01:34:42,960
Speaker 1: the most part doing great, you know, so I'm so

1581
01:34:43,040 --> 01:34:48,560
Speaker 1: happy to hear the salmon are doing all right generally. Yeah. Yeah,

1582
01:34:48,760 --> 01:34:51,120
Speaker 1: Pacific Northwest is a bit of another story, but it's

1583
01:34:51,160 --> 01:34:54,439
Speaker 1: a totally different story. Wasn't there a closure on king

1584
01:34:54,880 --> 01:34:58,360
Speaker 1: fishing to retain the Oh, there's a lot of that

1585
01:34:58,400 --> 01:35:01,360
Speaker 1: going around. Yeah, I mean should remember specifically when we

1586
01:35:01,360 --> 01:35:03,400
Speaker 1: were out at you because they couldn't tell because there's

1587
01:35:03,479 --> 01:35:05,560
Speaker 1: kings up here that belonged down there. Yeah, it was

1588
01:35:05,640 --> 01:35:07,920
Speaker 1: something I don't want them getting there's so few down there.

1589
01:35:07,960 --> 01:35:10,120
Speaker 1: They didn't want whatever ones might happen to be running

1590
01:35:10,120 --> 01:35:12,599
Speaker 1: around up here getting killed when they might be turning

1591
01:35:12,640 --> 01:35:18,960
Speaker 1: up down there later. Getting that right, well, they The

1592
01:35:20,439 --> 01:35:23,080
Speaker 1: sport and commercial seasons were closed for king salmon in

1593
01:35:23,160 --> 01:35:29,880
Speaker 1: Southeast Alaska starting in August last year. UM. There are

1594
01:35:30,200 --> 01:35:34,280
Speaker 1: a handful of the trans boundary rivers in Southeast Alaska,

1595
01:35:34,360 --> 01:35:38,080
Speaker 1: like the Keene and the Taku. When the eunuch Um

1596
01:35:38,200 --> 01:35:42,120
Speaker 1: rivers that drain from British Columbia into mainland Southeast Alaska, UM,

1597
01:35:42,360 --> 01:35:44,960
Speaker 1: the king salmon runs and all those rivers are in

1598
01:35:45,080 --> 01:35:47,400
Speaker 1: pretty bad shape right now, and so they closed the

1599
01:35:47,400 --> 01:35:51,559
Speaker 1: fisheries in southeast maximize return. Yes, yes, and a lot

1600
01:35:51,600 --> 01:35:53,960
Speaker 1: of those a lot of fish feeds sort of locally.

1601
01:35:54,040 --> 01:35:56,519
Speaker 1: So you know, even by the time August came around

1602
01:35:56,560 --> 01:35:58,960
Speaker 1: last year, most of that year spawners were already or

1603
01:35:59,080 --> 01:36:01,040
Speaker 1: if not all of them already in the river. But

1604
01:36:01,080 --> 01:36:05,120
Speaker 1: I think that they were closing that to preserve you know,

1605
01:36:05,200 --> 01:36:10,920
Speaker 1: immature fish eating in that um sort of coastal southeast.

1606
01:36:11,120 --> 01:36:13,439
Speaker 1: And then that alludes to that sort of Canada US

1607
01:36:13,520 --> 01:36:16,920
Speaker 1: interplay of salmon management. Yeah, there are some there are

1608
01:36:16,960 --> 01:36:21,439
Speaker 1: some treaties on those rivers too. I believe like just

1609
01:36:21,479 --> 01:36:24,280
Speaker 1: because it flows out in your country doesn't mean that

1610
01:36:24,360 --> 01:36:26,479
Speaker 1: you can run the show. Yeah, you can run the

1611
01:36:26,479 --> 01:36:28,280
Speaker 1: show when we need to our fish, to have our

1612
01:36:28,320 --> 01:36:30,920
Speaker 1: fish across the border and come back. There's a lot

1613
01:36:30,920 --> 01:36:33,479
Speaker 1: of habitat in Canada. Yeah, all right. Do you have

1614
01:36:33,520 --> 01:36:35,360
Speaker 1: any lot of things that you wanted to wedge in

1615
01:36:35,400 --> 01:36:37,320
Speaker 1: that we didn't get to Um No, I had a

1616
01:36:37,439 --> 01:36:39,280
Speaker 1: had a list, but we got to them. Yeah. Really,

1617
01:36:39,880 --> 01:36:45,920
Speaker 1: where's your list on my head? And you guys are good? Yeah,

1618
01:36:46,160 --> 01:36:49,599
Speaker 1: I'm ready for a taco fish taco kind of tacos.

1619
01:36:49,600 --> 01:36:52,080
Speaker 1: We have uh moves. But we do have some a

1620
01:36:52,120 --> 01:36:53,720
Speaker 1: little bit of halibut and rock fish we can heat

1621
01:36:53,760 --> 01:36:56,200
Speaker 1: up though, left over from a couple of nights ago.

1622
01:36:56,760 --> 01:37:00,200
Speaker 1: No salmon, nope, man, I got very little I have

1623
01:37:00,360 --> 01:37:01,840
Speaker 1: left in the freezer. Man, I'd like to have that

1624
01:37:01,840 --> 01:37:04,400
Speaker 1: stuff gone. To get it gone. Man. Yeah, you can

1625
01:37:04,439 --> 01:37:05,920
Speaker 1: sit on a piece of deer meat for a couple

1626
01:37:05,960 --> 01:37:08,880
Speaker 1: of years, but same, I like to get in and out. Yes, yes,

1627
01:37:10,880 --> 01:37:12,320
Speaker 1: all right, thanks for joining.