WEBVTT - Bosnia and the Path to Genocide Part 1 0:00:05.559 --> 0:00:07.960 Blow and welcome to It could Happen Here a podcast 0:00:08.039 --> 0:00:12.360 about the continual state of bad things happening and how 0:00:12.920 --> 0:00:15.440 sometimes you can make them less bad or not happen. 0:00:16.160 --> 0:00:19.400 And today we're gonna I'm Christopher Wong, by the way, 0:00:19.480 --> 0:00:23.240 and today we're gonna be talking about Bosnia, a place 0:00:23.320 --> 0:00:27.360 where things went about as bad as they possibly can, 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:35.160 and about how they're heading in very scary directions now. 0:00:35.400 --> 0:00:38.400 And with us to talk about this is Arnessa Kustra. 0:00:38.960 --> 0:00:42.919 Arnessa is a genocide survivor and a academic expert on 0:00:43.960 --> 0:00:48.360 genocides in general. Arnessa, how how are you doing? You know, 0:00:48.520 --> 0:00:54.040 I'm doing okay. I think all things considered, you know, 0:00:54.560 --> 0:00:58.920 being sort of bombarded on a daily basis with you know, 0:01:00.200 --> 0:01:04.039 possible threat um and talks about you know, a new 0:01:04.120 --> 0:01:07.840 conflict war brewing in the Balkans is the thing. Not 0:01:07.920 --> 0:01:13.679 an easy thing to convent, definitely not. Yeah, But other 0:01:13.800 --> 0:01:18.920 than that, I'm doing great. Thanks for asking. I'm glad. 0:01:18.920 --> 0:01:20.959 I'm glad. I'm glad you could be here with me 0:01:21.040 --> 0:01:25.479 today because the Balkans extremely complicated place, which I guess 0:01:25.480 --> 0:01:28.000 the story of both places. But yeah, and so I 0:01:28.000 --> 0:01:29.560 guess that that's that's where I wanted to go with 0:01:29.600 --> 0:01:36.440 my first question, because reading about what's happening now, my 0:01:36.480 --> 0:01:39.680 first instinct was go back to the day and accords. 0:01:39.720 --> 0:01:42.720 But I'm actually not sure that that's that that's that's 0:01:42.760 --> 0:01:44.640 that's even the best place to start, And so I 0:01:44.720 --> 0:01:48.920 wanted I wanted to, I guess ask you if so, okay, 0:01:48.920 --> 0:01:51.400 so if if if you're coming into looking at the 0:01:51.400 --> 0:01:54.280 Balkans for the first time and you're trying to understand 0:01:54.320 --> 0:01:57.000 what's going on, now, where do you think is the 0:01:57.040 --> 0:02:00.720 best place to start on it? Because I think you 0:02:00.760 --> 0:02:06.400 know the best. God, it's not we're talking about so 0:02:06.520 --> 0:02:10.920 much history, honestly, But the thing is, let's you know, 0:02:11.000 --> 0:02:15.240 let's start with the death of Tito. That's always a 0:02:15.280 --> 0:02:19.880 good place, I think, because that's really when things started 0:02:19.919 --> 0:02:23.560 to kind of shift in the Balkans and the former 0:02:23.840 --> 0:02:28.760 you know, socialist udo Slavia was really once Tito died 0:02:28.960 --> 0:02:34.440 and his place became, you know empty as this sort 0:02:34.480 --> 0:02:39.880 of unifying factor of all the various ethnicities and nationalities 0:02:39.880 --> 0:02:43.280 within Yugoslavia. You know, once he was gone, that sort 0:02:43.280 --> 0:02:47.320 of left this vacuum that needed to be filled, and unfortunately, 0:02:47.360 --> 0:02:53.120 instead of being filled, by another socialist you know, pro equality, 0:02:53.280 --> 0:03:00.000 pro unity leader. It was filled with a nationalist uh, 0:03:00.320 --> 0:03:05.160 which is kind of where we still are unfortunately. Um. 0:03:05.240 --> 0:03:09.560 You know, it started obviously with with little things I think, 0:03:09.639 --> 0:03:16.520 with little sort of conversations and and little subtle I guess, 0:03:16.600 --> 0:03:20.840 you know, Ethno nationalist rhetorics, and it just kind of 0:03:20.880 --> 0:03:25.320 like grew and spiraled from there. And obviously, you know, 0:03:25.440 --> 0:03:29.600 that sort of thing led to Miloshevich and Kosovo giving 0:03:29.720 --> 0:03:36.320 his infamous speech, which kind of really gave that full 0:03:36.440 --> 0:03:42.120 fledged stamp on. Okay, yes, this is a ultra nationalists, 0:03:42.280 --> 0:03:46.400 you know, Ethno nationalist president that we now have, UM, 0:03:46.440 --> 0:03:51.600 who's threatening war across the other ethnicities. What do we 0:03:51.680 --> 0:03:55.440 do next? Um? And at that point, you know, that's 0:03:55.480 --> 0:03:59.120 when you sort of see the other countries start to secede, 0:03:59.360 --> 0:04:03.360 you know, Slova, India, Croatia, they're attacked by Serbia and 0:04:03.360 --> 0:04:09.440 then obviously eventually it goes down to Bosnia. UM. And yeah, 0:04:09.480 --> 0:04:12.680 I mean it starts with yethno nationalism, as it always does, 0:04:14.000 --> 0:04:18.679 I think. Um, you know, I don't think we're anything 0:04:18.800 --> 0:04:23.480 special in terms of having conflict with our neighbors. Look 0:04:23.520 --> 0:04:27.720 at France and England or in our or America and 0:04:27.839 --> 0:04:31.320 Mexico or anyone. Really it's just you know, I think 0:04:31.360 --> 0:04:34.240 people make it sound as if we're special or we 0:04:34.320 --> 0:04:37.599 have these ancient hatreds, but you know that's not really true. 0:04:37.760 --> 0:04:40.800 It all comes down to the freaking politics and the leaders. 0:04:40.960 --> 0:04:49.120 And unfortunately, you know, Middlitchevitch was removed, but is policy 0:04:49.800 --> 0:04:55.960 is um beliefs continue to kind of stick around. You know. 0:04:56.040 --> 0:05:01.680 I think, uh, you know, people thing people like Miloshevitch 0:05:01.839 --> 0:05:06.080 and Radovan Katach, who were you know, genocidal war criminals, 0:05:07.160 --> 0:05:09.640 as a thing of the past. But really you look 0:05:09.680 --> 0:05:15.120 at you know, the Serbian president um or the republic 0:05:15.279 --> 0:05:20.760 Subska president and they are really just the continuation of 0:05:21.320 --> 0:05:27.080 Katach and Miloshevitch UM. So nothing, you know, has fundamentally 0:05:27.200 --> 0:05:31.120 changed since Tito died, except you know, we got some 0:05:31.800 --> 0:05:35.840 new agreements, we got some new territories, some new ethnic 0:05:35.920 --> 0:05:39.760 lients drawn up, and not a new pretty buildings too. 0:05:39.800 --> 0:05:43.400 We have those now as well, but we don't really 0:05:43.480 --> 0:05:49.000 have that coexistence um, at least that on paper, not 0:05:49.120 --> 0:05:53.279 in politics. Certainly. I want to go back for a 0:05:53.680 --> 0:05:58.480 second too. I guess the moment of Chito dying because 0:05:58.480 --> 0:06:02.560 It's always been a sort of interesting thing looking at 0:06:02.600 --> 0:06:04.080 it for me because I remember, I mean, you know, 0:06:04.200 --> 0:06:06.560 so from from studying Chinese history, right there, there's a 0:06:06.560 --> 0:06:10.120 period where in the seventies where okay, like everyone's looking 0:06:10.160 --> 0:06:12.760 for reform in China, and you know what, what you 0:06:12.800 --> 0:06:15.440 would consider like the sort of the I guess you 0:06:15.440 --> 0:06:18.560 could call them the I don't know, left and right 0:06:18.600 --> 0:06:21.560 is complicated in China, but you know, they're like there 0:06:21.560 --> 0:06:23.000 there are a lot of sort of what you would 0:06:23.040 --> 0:06:27.240 call like the sort of left socialist like democratic reformers. 0:06:27.279 --> 0:06:28.880 Who are you know, I mean people people like they're 0:06:28.880 --> 0:06:30.640 looking at Yugoslavia as a model and they're going, oh, 0:06:30.680 --> 0:06:33.720 we can have like workers participation and we can have 0:06:34.000 --> 0:06:40.279 we can have these democratic enterprises. And then that just implodes, 0:06:40.400 --> 0:06:42.160 and and yeah, I wonder if we can talk a 0:06:42.200 --> 0:06:45.720 little bit about more about that, because my my very 0:06:45.720 --> 0:06:48.720 limited understanding of it was like there's an economic crisis 0:06:49.120 --> 0:06:55.120 from the oil shocks, and then once Tito dies, it's 0:06:55.160 --> 0:06:58.920 just like the wheels come off the whole system. I mean, 0:06:58.920 --> 0:07:01.720 that's a really good way of putting it. Um you know, 0:07:01.760 --> 0:07:04.640 like life in Yugoslavia. I don't think it was like 0:07:04.680 --> 0:07:07.560 ever perfect, and I definitely don't think it was a 0:07:07.560 --> 0:07:11.240 perfect system. I think you know, me being a Bosnian 0:07:11.680 --> 0:07:16.200 who was born to Vary, I think pro Yugoslav parents. Um. 0:07:16.280 --> 0:07:21.000 I just like many of my you know, fellow Yugoslavs 0:07:21.080 --> 0:07:24.680 or x Yugoslavs, have a tendency to look at Yugoslavia 0:07:24.840 --> 0:07:29.080 with like rose colored lenses. You know. We think about 0:07:29.360 --> 0:07:35.400 the coexistence, the unity, the multi ethnic part, the worker 0:07:35.640 --> 0:07:40.320 owned you know, socialist models, the fact that our parents, um, 0:07:40.360 --> 0:07:43.080 you know, we're able to provide for their families and 0:07:43.280 --> 0:07:47.600 take vacations and travel and um, you know, get together 0:07:47.640 --> 0:07:50.480 and all these sort of wonderful things. But in the background, 0:07:50.560 --> 0:07:53.880 really in the sort of depths of the you know, 0:07:54.000 --> 0:08:02.000 politics and the economic issues were kind of always there. Um. 0:08:02.040 --> 0:08:04.400 You know. The one thing that Tito did was obviously 0:08:04.480 --> 0:08:10.000 he relied unlike I think other socialist leaders of his 0:08:10.120 --> 0:08:14.360 time is you know, he basically worked with anyone, you know, 0:08:14.600 --> 0:08:19.800 the non align movement, but also with the West, with Europe, 0:08:20.280 --> 0:08:23.120 you know. So he was a very picky choosy I 0:08:23.160 --> 0:08:27.880 think was you know, the betterment of the country by 0:08:27.960 --> 0:08:35.480 kind of any means necessary. Um. But I think you know, 0:08:35.559 --> 0:08:40.600 he made mistakes just like um other leaders do. And 0:08:40.640 --> 0:08:45.000 I think obviously we had, you know, two issues. One 0:08:45.080 --> 0:08:49.640 he was sick, he was dying, um. And two there's 0:08:49.679 --> 0:08:53.000 an economic crisis happening. Um. And three then we had 0:08:53.160 --> 0:09:00.240 like the economic reforms, which really shifted the entire I mean, 0:09:00.320 --> 0:09:04.280 they just they very much shifted the the system that 0:09:05.040 --> 0:09:08.559 the Yugoslav people were very much used to. UM. It 0:09:08.640 --> 0:09:12.800 became more and more prior, you know, privatized after his death. UM. 0:09:13.280 --> 0:09:17.800 And and you know, Miloshevich, he was he was a banker, 0:09:17.960 --> 0:09:23.679 he was a businessman. He was he was who he was. UM. 0:09:23.920 --> 0:09:26.559 And I don't think that he ever really pretended to 0:09:26.640 --> 0:09:30.080 be a socialist, which is why I get so upset 0:09:30.240 --> 0:09:35.000 when American leftists call him a socialist or call him 0:09:35.000 --> 0:09:38.920 an anti imperialist, because those aren't even words that you know, 0:09:39.080 --> 0:09:43.400 he himself would have really used to describe himself. I think. 0:09:43.640 --> 0:09:49.880 But but I think, you know, there was just it 0:09:50.080 --> 0:09:54.440 was that sort of thing where there's an economic crisis brewing, 0:09:54.880 --> 0:09:59.200 they have no wise to really fix it. People are broke, 0:09:59.480 --> 0:10:04.079 people are starving. Suddenly the ownership, the worker you know 0:10:04.360 --> 0:10:06.920 owned sort of model is being shifted to a more 0:10:07.040 --> 0:10:11.719 privatized model. And people are just not happy. What's a 0:10:11.840 --> 0:10:17.800 good way to distract from that? You know, It's just 0:10:18.480 --> 0:10:22.280 we see it happen everywhere. It's not a new it's 0:10:22.320 --> 0:10:25.360 not like a new you know tactic. It's a tactic 0:10:25.480 --> 0:10:30.839 that everyone has utilized. Blame it on the other. Um. So, 0:10:31.000 --> 0:10:34.000 Yugoslavia didn't really have you know, immigrants that they could 0:10:34.040 --> 0:10:38.240 blame it on, but they had Muslims. So and they 0:10:38.320 --> 0:10:41.679 had the Kasabo you know, Albanians and the Bossians, and 0:10:42.640 --> 0:10:49.040 that was, you know enough, and suddenly the conversation really shifted. 0:10:49.800 --> 0:10:53.800 And obviously I'm simplifying all of this a lot, so 0:10:53.960 --> 0:10:57.880 much more complicated. Um. But you know, there there are 0:10:57.960 --> 0:11:02.000 books out there and and that obviously go into a 0:11:02.160 --> 0:11:06.440 great you know level of detail, um, into the actual 0:11:06.520 --> 0:11:10.160 sort of breakup. So I can give some recommendations later. 0:11:10.720 --> 0:11:14.360 But um yeah. But I think in in in that 0:11:14.520 --> 0:11:17.760 sort of very simplistic kind of sense, is there was 0:11:17.800 --> 0:11:20.319 an economic crisis happening. A good way to sort of 0:11:20.400 --> 0:11:24.240 distract that was the use of ethno nationalism, and it 0:11:24.440 --> 0:11:27.800 just kind of spiraled from there. I think, you know 0:11:28.000 --> 0:11:31.439 what Miloshevitch and what people like Miloshevitch always wants more 0:11:31.559 --> 0:11:37.160 power for themselves, and so his whole thing wasn't really 0:11:37.240 --> 0:11:42.880 ever about keeping Yugoslavia intact as Yugoslavia. It was keeping 0:11:43.000 --> 0:11:47.160 this vision of a greater Serbia alive. Because the thing is, 0:11:47.640 --> 0:11:53.040 you know, if we had not had a person like Miloshevitch, 0:11:53.040 --> 0:11:55.680 if we just had somebody who was you know, the second, 0:11:55.840 --> 0:12:00.480 you know, maybe more or less worse or better, who cares. 0:12:01.000 --> 0:12:03.040 I think people would have been fine. I think, you know, 0:12:03.720 --> 0:12:06.480 I don't see this like war breaking now. But instead 0:12:06.480 --> 0:12:09.199 we had Miloshevich who was like way more concerned about 0:12:09.280 --> 0:12:13.679 consolidating power, exerting that control. And when he realized that 0:12:13.760 --> 0:12:17.000 he could use ethno nationalism to get to his goals, 0:12:18.080 --> 0:12:20.040 of course he was going to use that. Of course, 0:12:20.200 --> 0:12:22.559 like who wouldn't you know, we see it today with 0:12:22.760 --> 0:12:26.480 like what Trump did. He utilized you know, Muslims and 0:12:26.559 --> 0:12:29.719 immigrants and refugees and black people, all his scapeboats to 0:12:29.800 --> 0:12:33.319 distract from all the other things that are wrong with him, 0:12:33.520 --> 0:12:37.480 his leadership and the overall country. And Miloshevich did the same. 0:12:37.559 --> 0:12:41.800 He just did what any other politician did. And you know, 0:12:41.960 --> 0:12:46.000 that's the thing I think, you know, in thinking about Bosnia, Croatia, 0:12:46.040 --> 0:12:48.679 Slovenia and all these countries that started to succeed, I 0:12:48.840 --> 0:12:55.760 think if they had felt comfortable with, you know, staying 0:12:55.840 --> 0:12:58.800 in a country that is multi ethnic, at least in 0:12:58.840 --> 0:13:00.599 the case of Bosnians, and not going to speak for 0:13:00.640 --> 0:13:02.719 the Slovania's or croations because they have their own I 0:13:02.800 --> 0:13:10.640 think complicated identity. But with Bosnians, are are saying collectively, 0:13:10.760 --> 0:13:13.880 I think while we're not a monologue, not monolith, but 0:13:14.000 --> 0:13:20.080 collectively was always where are united? We are multi ethnic, 0:13:20.320 --> 0:13:24.679 multi religious, multi cultural, and it's such a big part 0:13:24.840 --> 0:13:29.640 of like our entire history and identity. And so if 0:13:29.679 --> 0:13:37.720 the choices being you know, under served, control, being secondary citizens, 0:13:37.960 --> 0:13:42.559 not having that equality, not having that multi ethnicity, of 0:13:42.760 --> 0:13:44.679 course we're not going to take that choice. Of course 0:13:44.720 --> 0:13:47.040 people are gonna want to you know, when when you 0:13:47.120 --> 0:13:50.040 have like that, you know, that boot on your neck 0:13:50.120 --> 0:13:53.440 of saying like we're going to control you, We're gonna 0:13:53.480 --> 0:13:56.160 take your land and we're gonna basically rule over you. 0:13:56.320 --> 0:13:59.559 Nobody wants to deal with that. And you know, unlike 0:14:00.800 --> 0:14:05.600 a lot of the other countries in former Yugoslavia, Bosnia 0:14:05.720 --> 0:14:08.959 really was the most multi ethnic. It had one of 0:14:09.000 --> 0:14:13.160 the highest rates of you know, mixed ethnic marriages and 0:14:13.440 --> 0:14:17.880 multi religious marriages, and that kind of remains true even today. 0:14:19.280 --> 0:14:23.120 So especially in places like sary Evo, Mostadaniluka, you know, 0:14:23.200 --> 0:14:26.600 the bigger cities, it has this very proud history of 0:14:27.720 --> 0:14:31.560 you know, coexistence and multiethnic co existence. So I think 0:14:32.880 --> 0:14:36.920 what happened for so many people was just a huge 0:14:36.960 --> 0:14:41.240 amount of shock. Um, my own family, so many people 0:14:41.280 --> 0:14:44.560 in my own family just did not think it could happen. Now. 0:14:45.560 --> 0:14:51.080 They grew up with this idea of a united you know, 0:14:51.320 --> 0:14:57.320 multi ethnic Yugoslavia, brotherhood and unity. These are our neighbors, 0:14:57.440 --> 0:15:03.200 our friends, our teachers, are lovers, you know whatever. There 0:15:03.600 --> 0:15:05.600 they work with us, they live next to us. Of 0:15:05.680 --> 0:15:09.120 course they're not gonna you know, turn against us. And 0:15:09.440 --> 0:15:13.480 I think even while all the politicians were fearmongering, while 0:15:13.640 --> 0:15:16.520 you know, Miloshevitch and Kataguge were sort of leading their 0:15:16.640 --> 0:15:23.520 campaigns of you know, especially as lamophobic provacad propaganda, um, 0:15:24.120 --> 0:15:27.280 you know, in in newspapers, on the radio, on TV, 0:15:27.480 --> 0:15:30.800 any chance that any speech that they gave, they talked 0:15:30.800 --> 0:15:32.720 about how the Muslims were coming, we were going to 0:15:32.800 --> 0:15:35.920 make their daughters wear her jobs, we were gonna take over. 0:15:36.080 --> 0:15:39.000 We're going to kill them, you know before that's why 0:15:39.040 --> 0:15:41.000 they have to kill us, because they don't pill us. 0:15:41.000 --> 0:15:43.360 We're going to kill them. It was just whole, you know, 0:15:44.240 --> 0:15:49.040 really brilliant propaganda campaign in so many ways that has 0:15:49.120 --> 0:16:02.200 now been replicated in so many other countries. We can 0:16:02.280 --> 0:16:05.840 We've talked about that specifically for yes. Second, because I 0:16:05.880 --> 0:16:11.000 think there's something interesting in the way that, like the 0:16:11.560 --> 0:16:13.960 way that you get people to do with genocide always 0:16:14.000 --> 0:16:17.520 seems to be like you can't. It's extremely hard to 0:16:17.560 --> 0:16:21.240 get someone to like just murder their neighbor because they 0:16:21.280 --> 0:16:23.680 don't like them. You have to do this like they're 0:16:23.680 --> 0:16:25.400 about to exterminate us, and that's why we have to 0:16:25.520 --> 0:16:29.240 like strike first. And that Yeah, that that that aspect 0:16:29.280 --> 0:16:31.320 of it, I think is is something that I see 0:16:31.320 --> 0:16:34.000 a lot when when I do this and yeah, you 0:16:34.160 --> 0:16:37.720 you have you have done more genocide studies, I want 0:16:37.720 --> 0:16:42.000 to hear. Yeah. I mean, here's the thing. Um, it's 0:16:42.040 --> 0:16:44.560 so funny. I gave like an interview um on this 0:16:44.640 --> 0:16:47.840 specific topic I don't know, like two years ago, and 0:16:48.040 --> 0:16:50.800 I remember turning to the guy who has interviewing me 0:16:50.840 --> 0:16:53.840 because he was just like his look on his face 0:16:54.000 --> 0:16:57.160 was I just don't understand, Like I don't. I can't 0:16:57.160 --> 0:16:59.520 wrap my mind about how people could do that to 0:17:00.120 --> 0:17:04.639 their friends, neighbors, students, you know, people that were sworn 0:17:04.720 --> 0:17:08.479 to like protect and and people they lived with their 0:17:08.600 --> 0:17:11.399 entire lives. How could they do that? Well, you know, 0:17:11.480 --> 0:17:12.919 I turned to him and I said, yeah, I mean, 0:17:13.000 --> 0:17:16.280 if I told you right now go kill him, you 0:17:16.359 --> 0:17:19.440 know you probably wouldn't. But if I came to you 0:17:20.040 --> 0:17:23.639 day in and day out and I slowly started to 0:17:23.720 --> 0:17:26.920 kind of whisper in your ear, and I started to 0:17:27.000 --> 0:17:30.440 tell you, you know, he's been really really I don't know, 0:17:30.640 --> 0:17:32.960 he's been saying a lot of stuff about you. He's 0:17:32.960 --> 0:17:37.080 been quite negative or I don't know, you know, do 0:17:37.160 --> 0:17:38.960 you think he's kind of acting weird? I feel like 0:17:39.040 --> 0:17:42.000 he might be planning something. You might be planning to 0:17:42.080 --> 0:17:44.760 take over your house. You may be planning to I 0:17:44.760 --> 0:17:46.720 don't know, probably attack your sister. I think he's going 0:17:46.760 --> 0:17:48.639 to kill your sister. I think you might make your 0:17:48.680 --> 0:17:51.560 sister wear her job. So it's these very like slow, 0:17:51.760 --> 0:17:54.280 subtle things. And that's the thing that people don't understand. 0:17:54.880 --> 0:18:00.919 You know, violence never interrupts, like, never up out of nowhere, 0:18:01.920 --> 0:18:06.479 you know, it it's always planned. It brewis and it bruise, 0:18:06.520 --> 0:18:08.639 and it bruised, and then it explodes. You know, then 0:18:08.760 --> 0:18:12.040 there's the thing. But it comes slowly. And that's how 0:18:12.080 --> 0:18:16.080 it wasn't Yugoslavia. It wasn't this sudden. You know. Oh, yes, 0:18:16.200 --> 0:18:20.200 we're brothers and sisters. Forever, Go Tito, go Yugoslavia too. 0:18:20.840 --> 0:18:22.639 You know, Oh, I hate you because you're Muslim, and 0:18:22.680 --> 0:18:24.520 I hate you because your servant, I hate you because 0:18:24.560 --> 0:18:27.360 you're croact. No, that was not the case. The case 0:18:27.600 --> 0:18:31.800 was that this was a very slow campaign of propaganda 0:18:31.920 --> 0:18:36.280 that started in the eighties, almost immediately after Tito's death. 0:18:36.359 --> 0:18:40.680 Let's say it started very slow, started with the you know, 0:18:40.840 --> 0:18:44.080 with the sort of i think the disenfranchisement of the 0:18:44.119 --> 0:18:48.640 coast of all Albanians um and kind of the targeting 0:18:48.720 --> 0:18:52.760 of them um. And again, yes, there was this economic 0:18:52.840 --> 0:18:54.879 component on of it, but the way they wanted to 0:18:55.040 --> 0:18:59.120 kind of sidetrack that was, you know, well, you're you're 0:18:59.200 --> 0:19:03.240 hungry because thes of Albanians are not, you know, and 0:19:03.320 --> 0:19:08.119 they're taking your jobs again some more, uh, you know, 0:19:08.280 --> 0:19:12.120 tactics that we see evening. Yeah, so it's not it's 0:19:12.119 --> 0:19:14.520 not that much different, but yeah, you know, it starts 0:19:14.600 --> 0:19:18.560 slow and and the Militievitch and the cottage and the 0:19:18.640 --> 0:19:22.400 Maladich kind of campaigning was God, it was brutal. I mean, 0:19:22.680 --> 0:19:25.440 like I always say, it was kind of brilliantly executed 0:19:25.600 --> 0:19:29.720 in that it really got two people so much that 0:19:29.840 --> 0:19:33.119 then again, you know, they turned neighbor against neighbor. It 0:19:33.359 --> 0:19:37.280 was it was subtle in the beginning. It was that 0:19:37.480 --> 0:19:40.200 sort of what are the Muslims up to? Can we 0:19:40.320 --> 0:19:42.800 trust them? Can you trust your neighbor? Can you trust 0:19:42.840 --> 0:19:47.240 the Muslims? You know, talking about islam sization, talking about 0:19:47.920 --> 0:19:49.480 Alia is a big of which this book that he 0:19:49.560 --> 0:19:51.960 wrote when he was like I don't know, eighteen or 0:19:52.280 --> 0:19:56.760 or whatever, like, and you know, talking about World War two, 0:19:56.920 --> 0:20:00.480 this was another thing, like like everybody owns that there 0:20:00.560 --> 0:20:02.399 was a period in World War Two where you know 0:20:02.760 --> 0:20:05.600 a lot of Serbs were killed by Guster shaw Uh, 0:20:06.040 --> 0:20:10.560 by the Nazi collaborationists. And I think obviously that's a 0:20:10.680 --> 0:20:13.560 real fear for you know, for a certain group of 0:20:13.640 --> 0:20:16.239 people who went through that. So there was a lot 0:20:16.280 --> 0:20:18.120 of that as well, you know, that's going to happen again, 0:20:18.200 --> 0:20:22.800 That's going to happen again. Meanwhile, there was no grand plan. 0:20:23.040 --> 0:20:27.440 There was never even talks of you know, committing violence 0:20:28.040 --> 0:20:31.280 or even you know, talks of you know, seceding from 0:20:31.359 --> 0:20:37.440 Yugoslavia or anything. It was all it was all set 0:20:37.560 --> 0:20:41.520 in motion by the Serbian leadership, you know. And I 0:20:41.680 --> 0:20:47.040 think that's what people don't understand. The Bousian leadership, while 0:20:47.119 --> 0:20:51.240 not perfect, we're simply reacting to what the Serbian leadership 0:20:51.320 --> 0:20:55.480 was in many ways making them do. And and that's 0:20:55.560 --> 0:20:59.280 kind of where, you know, what happens in these situations. 0:20:59.359 --> 0:21:00.760 You know, they kind of push you and push you 0:21:00.800 --> 0:21:04.520 and push you until they're able to get you know, 0:21:04.960 --> 0:21:07.560 some sort of rise out of you or response out 0:21:07.600 --> 0:21:10.200 of you, or or get you on that sort of 0:21:10.280 --> 0:21:13.399 offensive where you have to defend yourself, You have to 0:21:13.480 --> 0:21:15.440 defend your identity, you have to defend who you are, 0:21:15.560 --> 0:21:20.280 you have to justify it also in many ways. So yeah, 0:21:21.400 --> 0:21:25.160 the you know, the sort of propaganda campaign, god, there 0:21:25.320 --> 0:21:29.080 was you know, obviously the funny things were like things 0:21:29.119 --> 0:21:30.640 like they're going to make you wear the hit job, 0:21:30.840 --> 0:21:35.280 but it was also very insiduous because they would target 0:21:36.440 --> 0:21:41.880 like these you know, villages where they were like Bosnians 0:21:42.000 --> 0:21:45.200 and Serbs, you know, living together and they're quite small, 0:21:46.320 --> 0:21:49.359 but they knew that like in the village obviously usually 0:21:49.400 --> 0:21:51.879 have a gun or you know shotgun because of the 0:21:51.960 --> 0:21:55.400 animals or you know, working or whatever. So they were 0:21:55.440 --> 0:21:58.600 like target them specifically with like the you know, the 0:21:58.720 --> 0:22:03.119 radioto and instead of like the big cities, Like they 0:22:03.200 --> 0:22:05.800 worked up to the big cities, but they really started 0:22:05.840 --> 0:22:09.520 in like specific sort of areas like in eastern Bosnia, 0:22:09.640 --> 0:22:12.440 especially because there was like a lot of um i 0:22:12.560 --> 0:22:16.800 think majority Muslim like villages in that area that would 0:22:16.800 --> 0:22:20.240 also have like nearby served villages. So yeah, I mean 0:22:20.280 --> 0:22:22.159 there was that. There was you know then sort of 0:22:22.240 --> 0:22:28.080 taking over all the radio stations and um kind of 0:22:28.200 --> 0:22:30.960 going full force. They think like in the sort of 0:22:31.080 --> 0:22:36.440 early days of the war, like we're talking April May, 0:22:38.960 --> 0:22:43.560 they you know, they would get people like pretending that 0:22:43.640 --> 0:22:46.560 they were Bosnians they were actually Serbs, and they would 0:22:46.600 --> 0:22:49.560 like talk about how they went to you know, kill 0:22:49.600 --> 0:22:53.000 all Serbs or something like that. Um. There was also 0:22:53.080 --> 0:22:56.160 when they were like having people in concentration camps where 0:22:56.160 --> 0:22:59.360 they like started kind of putting them in those concentration camps. Initially, 0:23:00.119 --> 0:23:05.560 they they would make the victims in the concentration camps 0:23:05.600 --> 0:23:09.760 the Muslims basically, you know, say that, oh, they're just 0:23:09.920 --> 0:23:14.960 there as a refugee and the Serbian army is like 0:23:15.119 --> 0:23:18.520 protecting them, and they're making me feel really welcome and 0:23:18.600 --> 0:23:22.160 stuff like that. So it was right at the beginning 0:23:23.160 --> 0:23:28.600 between especially eighty nine too, like the propaganda was so 0:23:29.160 --> 0:23:33.880 visible and it really escalated, and it was like suddenly 0:23:34.080 --> 0:23:39.160 everywhere and you would hear cartategic and Middle we Shovitch 0:23:39.280 --> 0:23:43.440 talk about, you know, the Muslims and the things that 0:23:43.600 --> 0:23:46.919 we wanted and you know, the things that the goals 0:23:47.000 --> 0:23:49.119 that we had, which after all, we're not you know, 0:23:49.960 --> 0:23:52.480 nobody was saying it. There wasn't like a single person 0:23:52.600 --> 0:23:55.159 that was saying these things that they were attributing to us. 0:23:55.640 --> 0:23:58.240 But that didn't matter. What they were just doing was 0:23:58.400 --> 0:24:03.040 instilling enough fear and enough doubt into population to eventually 0:24:03.160 --> 0:24:05.600 get them to take up arms when the time comes. 0:24:06.880 --> 0:24:10.080 And unfortunately, that's precisely what happened. When the time came. 0:24:11.200 --> 0:24:12.920 You know a lot of people did take up arms, 0:24:13.080 --> 0:24:15.960 whether or not they wanted to. They had enough of 0:24:16.080 --> 0:24:19.680 that doubt and fear stowed in their minds over the 0:24:19.760 --> 0:24:22.280 course of you know, several years that they ended up 0:24:23.200 --> 0:24:26.760 feeling like I have to protect myself. And I'm not 0:24:26.840 --> 0:24:29.240 saying that's the case for every certain person. I think 0:24:29.440 --> 0:24:35.159 some a lot of you know, especially in higher leadership posmissions, 0:24:35.200 --> 0:24:38.240 a lot of them were just sociopaths who wanted to kill. 0:24:38.359 --> 0:24:42.600 And I don't think it mattered why or how, because 0:24:42.680 --> 0:24:45.320 you're always going to get those kind of people. But 0:24:45.560 --> 0:24:50.959 I think when we're talking about how how that shift 0:24:51.080 --> 0:24:54.400 happened so last, we have to obviously discuss the propaganda, 0:24:55.000 --> 0:24:58.040 the huge amount of propaganda that I went into, uh, 0:24:58.200 --> 0:25:03.840 you know, implementing it. So I guess such a tangent. 0:25:04.600 --> 0:25:05.960 That's okay, No, no, that was that was that was 0:25:06.040 --> 0:25:09.399 really great? Yeah, I think you know, yeah, I mean, 0:25:09.440 --> 0:25:14.840 I guess, like I think it's incredibly important for everyone 0:25:14.880 --> 0:25:17.920 to understand that propaganda works, like if you just say 0:25:18.000 --> 0:25:20.280 something over and over and over again, like it does, 0:25:21.200 --> 0:25:24.680 you know of event eventually it pays off. And you know, 0:25:25.000 --> 0:25:30.880 the quote unquote payoff here is the genocide. And I guess, yeah, 0:25:30.920 --> 0:25:33.639 I'm not sure how far into detail you want to 0:25:34.160 --> 0:25:38.439 get into this here, but but I think one thing 0:25:38.520 --> 0:25:41.240 I want to kind of focus on because I think 0:25:41.480 --> 0:25:44.800 from from reading what you've been saying about this that 0:25:46.200 --> 0:25:47.960 this wound up being a big deal with like why 0:25:48.080 --> 0:25:51.760 things are sort of still fucked now, which is that 0:25:51.960 --> 0:25:54.439 like the international response to this, Like, I mean, one 0:25:54.480 --> 0:25:56.359 of the things I've always just like haunted by is 0:25:56.560 --> 0:26:00.640 there's this quote by mid irand who's the herm Mr 0:26:00.760 --> 0:26:02.560 France's like this, he wants to be the socialist. He's 0:26:02.600 --> 0:26:04.480 like the guy that like they finally put in power 0:26:04.560 --> 0:26:06.080 after like all of the stuff in the sixties, and 0:26:06.200 --> 0:26:10.280 he is this lying about like I'm sorry, I wish 0:26:10.320 --> 0:26:12.920 I wish I tould up the exact quote, but it's 0:26:12.920 --> 0:26:18.000 basically like I I know the quote, Yeah, do you 0:26:18.040 --> 0:26:21.960 want to say it over the exactly? Um, it's uh, 0:26:22.440 --> 0:26:30.200 it's what was it? A peaceful but necessary reconstruction of 0:26:30.240 --> 0:26:36.480 a Christian europe um and Bosnia does not belong. So 0:26:37.080 --> 0:26:41.000 I remember that differently. It's really stayed with me for 0:26:41.119 --> 0:26:43.280 such a long time because he said that at a 0:26:43.400 --> 0:26:48.920 time where the Bosnian Muslims were just completely defenseless. Um, 0:26:49.040 --> 0:26:51.919 they were being dragged the way to concentrate shim camps. 0:26:51.960 --> 0:26:55.680 The massacres were already well underway. We're not talking about stubborn, 0:26:57.000 --> 0:27:03.800 We're talking about sorry about flat um even Surbrins nine two. 0:27:03.960 --> 0:27:07.399 You know, this is all um, the things that happened 0:27:07.400 --> 0:27:11.080 in places like witchcoens running and all these places that 0:27:11.200 --> 0:27:13.920 you that I think the vast majority of people don't 0:27:13.960 --> 0:27:18.359 really know about any here about, like in a lot 0:27:18.400 --> 0:27:20.920 of my family is from there. Within a span of 0:27:21.000 --> 0:27:26.040 three months, that entire town, the entire town, which was 0:27:26.200 --> 0:27:34.119 once almost entirely Bosnia muslim Um, was ethnically cleansed. And 0:27:34.440 --> 0:27:39.200 that was done through forced deportations, concentration camps, mass rapes, 0:27:39.240 --> 0:27:42.600 and rape camps of women and obviously a lot of murders. 0:27:43.240 --> 0:27:45.680 You know. So we're talking about one small town that 0:27:46.080 --> 0:27:50.159 took you know, three three months. And my family when 0:27:50.200 --> 0:27:53.320 it comes to that town, on both my mother's and 0:27:53.480 --> 0:27:56.600 my father's side, interestingly enough, has like such a long history. 0:27:56.800 --> 0:27:59.200 My parents fell in love there when they were like kids, 0:28:00.600 --> 0:28:03.480 you know, they you know, my grandmother's house was there, 0:28:03.600 --> 0:28:07.679 my grandfather's house was there. Um on like both sides, 0:28:07.720 --> 0:28:10.840 and they you know, so is this beautiful little town 0:28:12.119 --> 0:28:15.680 where you know Bosnians then Bosniaks and serves and CoA 0:28:15.760 --> 0:28:19.720 hads lived in Jews Roma and you know, my parents 0:28:19.800 --> 0:28:22.320 talked about the beauty of it and this wonderful sort 0:28:22.359 --> 0:28:24.680 of experience that they had when they lived there. My 0:28:25.119 --> 0:28:28.679 mom is from Saraebo, UM and I saw my as 0:28:28.720 --> 0:28:31.240 well obviously, but the Chad was like the place that 0:28:31.359 --> 0:28:33.080 she would go kind of like for the weekend, just 0:28:33.160 --> 0:28:36.240 because of the family that we had there. UM so 0:28:36.840 --> 0:28:41.040 very special. I think in her heart my grandpa's heart 0:28:41.160 --> 0:28:45.960 as well, and you know, within it's just like so 0:28:46.640 --> 0:28:50.360 hard to like fathom that within just a few months 0:28:50.480 --> 0:28:54.200 that talent was completely ethnically climes and that the international 0:28:54.280 --> 0:28:58.080 community knew this and did nothing. You know, there is 0:28:59.240 --> 0:29:01.640 and I leave it's in the Clinton tapes as well, 0:29:01.800 --> 0:29:04.960 but there was this thing about how they had provided 0:29:05.000 --> 0:29:08.520 aerial footage of the massacres that were being that were 0:29:08.560 --> 0:29:13.120 being enacted in places like Pittugal and Vannique where, oh 0:29:13.200 --> 0:29:19.080 my god, depare military serve forces did some horrid, horrifying 0:29:19.400 --> 0:29:24.880 acts of like violence and torture against the civilians. UM. 0:29:26.120 --> 0:29:28.680 And they had you know, showed it to the Clintons, 0:29:28.760 --> 0:29:31.560 and they showed it to the French and the English, 0:29:31.680 --> 0:29:37.240 and they did nothing. You know, they knew that a 0:29:37.360 --> 0:29:41.920 genocide was unfolding. UM. And the Dayton Peace Agreement wasn't 0:29:41.960 --> 0:29:49.600 signed until so the international UM community I think as 0:29:49.880 --> 0:29:55.920 just as much of a responsibility in the you know, 0:29:56.040 --> 0:30:00.280 the genocide of the Bosniaks as Serbia does, because stay 0:30:00.360 --> 0:30:02.560 sat there and they watched when they had all the 0:30:02.640 --> 0:30:05.560 power to stop it. They always had the power to 0:30:05.600 --> 0:30:07.400 stop it. They had the power to stop it before 0:30:07.440 --> 0:30:11.400 it even before even one person got killed, um and 0:30:11.680 --> 0:30:16.440 and two they it's not even that they just watched, 0:30:16.840 --> 0:30:21.920 it's that they purposely left the Muslims defenseless because Serbia 0:30:22.040 --> 0:30:27.360 had all the Yugoslav army, all the weapons, all the 0:30:27.680 --> 0:30:29.920 you know, everything, all the tools that they needed to 0:30:30.000 --> 0:30:32.760 commit j others side. They already had it, all the 0:30:32.880 --> 0:30:38.640 arsenal everything, um And you do waslav army was like 0:30:38.760 --> 0:30:40.680 the most powerful in the region at the time, and 0:30:40.760 --> 0:30:45.920 I think the fourth, third, third or fourth most powerful 0:30:46.160 --> 0:30:51.520 in like the Europe Turkey areas, so we you know, 0:30:51.840 --> 0:30:56.240 quite a powerful army. And there was Bosnia which had 0:30:56.920 --> 0:31:01.200 no weapons, no military uh um. You know, you see 0:31:01.280 --> 0:31:06.840 these pictures of like civilians fighting against you know, tanks 0:31:07.000 --> 0:31:11.840 and mortar shells and snipers, and it's like these you 0:31:11.920 --> 0:31:15.720 know youths basically and like converse and jeans and like 0:31:15.840 --> 0:31:20.960 an army jacket playing soldier because that's all we had, 0:31:21.080 --> 0:31:24.440 you know, we had the homemade weapons, we had um, 0:31:24.680 --> 0:31:29.360 you know, how to make your own bomb books kind 0:31:29.400 --> 0:31:33.040 of thing, and trying to basically descend ourselves with anything 0:31:33.120 --> 0:31:38.960 that we could. Um. They specifically did not lift the 0:31:39.120 --> 0:31:43.640 arms embargo, knowing that they were leaving us defenseless. Like 0:31:43.800 --> 0:31:47.200 they just knew. There was no way. There's no doubt 0:31:47.480 --> 0:31:50.880 on everything that we have read about the international community response, 0:31:51.400 --> 0:31:57.960 everything that Clinton metedand John mayor major major um not 0:31:58.200 --> 0:32:02.120 mayor major have that you know about it during that 0:32:02.320 --> 0:32:06.600 period shows us that they absolutely knew that we were defenseless, 0:32:06.640 --> 0:32:09.600 you know. And this wasn't you know a lot of 0:32:09.640 --> 0:32:12.720 people say I didn't know about the Bosnian genocide, but 0:32:13.480 --> 0:32:18.200 it was discussed, you know, I've looked at the archived footage. UM, 0:32:18.360 --> 0:32:20.840 it was talked about it on television, it was brought 0:32:20.920 --> 0:32:23.920 up in parliament and incentive that was people at the 0:32:24.000 --> 0:32:28.440 time who were like, why are we leaving the Bosnians defenseless? 0:32:28.880 --> 0:32:32.520 Why are we you know, not helping them, Why are 0:32:32.560 --> 0:32:34.760 we allowing them to be allowed into slaughter? This is 0:32:34.880 --> 0:32:38.120 genocide blah blah blah. So even as early as there 0:32:38.200 --> 0:32:41.200 was still people who knew about this stuff. We're telling 0:32:41.280 --> 0:32:45.360 the leaders, but nothing. Yeah, I think I think like 0:32:45.480 --> 0:32:47.160 that part also, like it's it's not just that like 0:32:47.200 --> 0:32:50.200 they did nothing, like they like they did worse than 0:32:50.240 --> 0:32:54.040 do nothing, like Miterians actively cheering it on, Like you know, 0:32:54.160 --> 0:32:57.680 the arms in Bargo is just like the arms in Bargo. 0:32:58.040 --> 0:33:02.120 If you're applying in arms in Bargo on a conflict 0:33:02.240 --> 0:33:04.560 where one people one side has tanks and the other 0:33:04.600 --> 0:33:08.080 side has like molotovs, like you are actively supporting one 0:33:08.080 --> 0:33:10.360 of the sides. And I think that like that just 0:33:10.560 --> 0:33:15.280 like is completely lost in how like almost everyone seems 0:33:15.320 --> 0:33:19.120 to talk about this now because there's like, you know, 0:33:19.160 --> 0:33:21.680 because because when you sort of get like interventions later, 0:33:21.960 --> 0:33:24.480 like people are like, oh, look, the wester was like 0:33:24.520 --> 0:33:26.800 planning to intervene here the whole time, and it's like no, 0:33:27.120 --> 0:33:32.200 like they were literally cheering, was cheering. Like it's like 0:33:32.880 --> 0:33:36.640 it's so frustrating because you know, we you take what 0:33:36.840 --> 0:33:40.200 we know about. And here's the thing. I know that 0:33:40.280 --> 0:33:46.000 Islamophobia escalated after nine eleven, but is Islamophobia has existed 0:33:46.080 --> 0:33:49.160 for a very long time. And I think talked to 0:33:49.480 --> 0:33:53.080 the black Muslims of America, they will tell you more, 0:33:53.200 --> 0:33:55.120 you know, better than than I could ever tell you 0:33:55.200 --> 0:33:58.160 about the history of Islamophobia in in the United States. 0:33:59.080 --> 0:34:01.160 So it's a loam of phobia was always an aspect 0:34:01.440 --> 0:34:05.640 of life. And in Europe, Islamophobia just like anti Semitism. 0:34:05.760 --> 0:34:11.440 I mean, it is like the staple of European cultural cuisine. 0:34:11.719 --> 0:34:14.680 So to say it's like it's like, yeah, it's like 0:34:14.680 --> 0:34:16.480 there's there's a there's a there's they have. They have 0:34:16.560 --> 0:34:18.200 like they have like the like the the tri force 0:34:18.239 --> 0:34:23.080 of Europeans, of European civilization is anti Semitism, Islamophobia and 0:34:23.480 --> 0:34:29.080 hating the Roma are just like how for the force. 0:34:29.200 --> 0:34:32.440 And so I think the sort of thing about the 0:34:32.600 --> 0:34:37.840 explicitness of European leadership, especially at the time in in 0:34:39.440 --> 0:34:43.320 you know, effectively ensuring that we were killed off because 0:34:44.160 --> 0:34:49.560 in Muslim country in Europe could not exist, and that's 0:34:49.600 --> 0:34:52.080 the thing that they said, literally set a Muslim country 0:34:52.120 --> 0:34:57.960 in Europe cannot exist. Like the fact that that was 0:34:58.040 --> 0:35:01.759 so open and brazen like kind of takes me back. 0:35:01.920 --> 0:35:06.960 But it really like tells you how much is Lamophobia informed. 0:35:07.160 --> 0:35:10.239 I think the international community responds on this, and it's 0:35:10.280 --> 0:35:13.440 so interesting to me. Now I think I've seen it 0:35:13.600 --> 0:35:15.800 over the past, I would say, especially five years, the 0:35:15.880 --> 0:35:20.080 sort of leftist genocide and I sort of leftist, anti 0:35:20.200 --> 0:35:25.279 imperialist kind of defense of Miloshevich and oh they were 0:35:25.320 --> 0:35:27.399 the you know, the Serbs were the actual victims blah 0:35:27.440 --> 0:35:30.640 blah blah and NATO blah blah blah, Western intervention. And 0:35:30.719 --> 0:35:32.919 I'm just like, oh, my god, read a book, read 0:35:32.960 --> 0:35:36.480 an article from that, read their actual quotes. There's no 0:35:36.680 --> 0:35:41.640 way that you can actually convince me that Europe, fortress Europe, 0:35:42.320 --> 0:35:45.480 and the United States of America would do anything that 0:35:45.520 --> 0:35:57.880 would benefit you know, the Muslim What's this? What was 0:35:58.000 --> 0:35:59.840 one of the things. I think it's really interesting to 0:36:00.040 --> 0:36:02.399 me about some way that the sort of like left 0:36:02.440 --> 0:36:05.600 genocidees dialism works, like it always seems to be reginus lomophobia, 0:36:05.600 --> 0:36:08.680 like and I remember started seeing this with Bosnia to 0:36:08.760 --> 0:36:11.040 where they're like, oh, yeah, well it's it's it's because 0:36:11.160 --> 0:36:13.000 what's okay. They have two things. One it's like, well, 0:36:13.080 --> 0:36:15.080 the Bossians were Nazis been the second one was like, 0:36:15.160 --> 0:36:17.640 oh well the boss the Bossians were like allto hottists. 0:36:18.080 --> 0:36:19.600 And it's like like it's the exact same thing you 0:36:19.640 --> 0:36:21.960 see with China, and it's like, oh, it's because all 0:36:22.000 --> 0:36:26.480 the weakers are like Selafiji hottest iss c I A. 0:36:26.560 --> 0:36:32.919 And it's like no, yeah, I mean it's it's it's 0:36:32.920 --> 0:36:35.440 honestly laughable at this point. It really is. And it 0:36:35.560 --> 0:36:38.880 also just you know, obviously I'm a leftist. You know, 0:36:39.080 --> 0:36:42.160 I'm gonna cheer the left on to an extent, but 0:36:42.320 --> 0:36:45.360 that is my red line. The genocide anialism really is 0:36:45.440 --> 0:36:48.360 my red line. And the reason it's it's you know, 0:36:48.560 --> 0:36:51.080 my red line isn't just because I'm a genocide survivor, 0:36:51.239 --> 0:36:55.040 but because it's like, oh, for God's sake, the data, 0:36:55.120 --> 0:37:03.839 the statistics, the research, the forensic the analysis, the specific quotes, videos, articles, uh, 0:37:04.520 --> 0:37:06.680 you know, all of those things exist and are out there, 0:37:06.880 --> 0:37:08.600 and all you have to do is actually do your 0:37:08.640 --> 0:37:10.920 research and you will find out that actually know you're 0:37:11.000 --> 0:37:13.560 in the wrong. And the other thing is what you 0:37:13.719 --> 0:37:16.480 just said about the sort of thing of painting you know, 0:37:16.560 --> 0:37:19.320 the Muslims is like the Nazis and the you know, 0:37:19.480 --> 0:37:23.759 the extremists. Um, you know, the thing about like the 0:37:23.840 --> 0:37:27.479 Bazian and Muslims is like, we don't hide the fact 0:37:27.560 --> 0:37:30.880 that there were people of our community that participated in 0:37:31.040 --> 0:37:36.440 Nazi crimes. There isn't this goal of concealing those crimes, 0:37:36.800 --> 0:37:41.319 of minimizing the crimes or pretending that they were right. Um, 0:37:41.440 --> 0:37:44.240 there is I'm sure a French group of people who 0:37:44.320 --> 0:37:47.000 defend these kinds of people, like there is a French 0:37:47.040 --> 0:37:51.000 when I'm talking about the collective sort of Bosnian um, 0:37:51.640 --> 0:37:54.320 you know, state level response as well as like an 0:37:54.480 --> 0:37:59.200 individual response is that the you know, the the Nazi 0:37:59.280 --> 0:38:05.480 division had like seventeen thousand Bosnian soldiers and there's millions 0:38:05.520 --> 0:38:09.120 of Bosnians in the country. The vast majority ended up 0:38:09.200 --> 0:38:13.480 joining the Partisans and stood against the Nazis. And the 0:38:13.560 --> 0:38:17.239 thing is, you can't when it comes to Yugoslavia and 0:38:17.320 --> 0:38:20.000 World War Two and the Holocaust, you can't just say 0:38:20.080 --> 0:38:23.440 that the Bosnians were Nazi collaboration is because the thing is, 0:38:23.560 --> 0:38:26.480 so are the Serbians, So are the Serbs, so are 0:38:26.520 --> 0:38:29.880 the Croats. At that time, Let's be honest, who the 0:38:29.960 --> 0:38:34.480 hell wasn't a Nazi collaborationist. Now this doesn't excuse it, 0:38:35.200 --> 0:38:38.800 absolutely not, but what it does sort of show is 0:38:38.880 --> 0:38:43.200 that that history, that period um in Yugoslav history is 0:38:43.360 --> 0:38:47.440 really complicated because you know, you had the Gustia um. 0:38:47.719 --> 0:38:50.600 And then you had the Chechniques. And then there's a 0:38:50.680 --> 0:38:53.600 period where the Chechniks were against Ussia, right because like 0:38:54.120 --> 0:38:56.600 used to show we're killing Serbs and robots and drews. 0:38:56.920 --> 0:38:59.360 But then the Chechniques turned around and there are you know, 0:38:59.480 --> 0:39:02.919 these Serb nationalists. They start killing the Jews and the Roma, 0:39:03.600 --> 0:39:05.680 and then they start working with those shut to hand 0:39:05.719 --> 0:39:07.520 down the Jews in the Roma, and then they start 0:39:07.560 --> 0:39:11.480 working with them to stand against the you know, the 0:39:11.680 --> 0:39:17.960 Tito's Partisans. Um. Meanwhile, you know, Tito's Partisans had a 0:39:18.160 --> 0:39:28.320 multi ethnic coalition, like and we're talking about Serbs, Bosnians, Roma, Jews, Croats, Albanians, 0:39:28.360 --> 0:39:32.400 you know, all sorts of people who were very like, 0:39:33.040 --> 0:39:37.000 you know, anti Nazism. So you know, we're we're gonna 0:39:37.640 --> 0:39:40.799 we're gonna win, We're gonna rebuild our our country, We're gonna, 0:39:41.200 --> 0:39:44.880 you know, make this beautiful sort of you know, multi 0:39:45.000 --> 0:39:47.680 ethnic kind of state, which they did, which is amazing. 0:39:48.080 --> 0:39:50.399 But yeah, but it is a complicated sort of piece 0:39:50.480 --> 0:39:52.480 of history. So you can't really say, oh, yes, they're 0:39:52.600 --> 0:39:56.440 the Nazi collaborationists because, um, at some point or not, 0:39:56.760 --> 0:40:01.560 everybody was and at some point or not everybody was also. Yeah, yeah, 0:40:01.719 --> 0:40:03.480 it's like like it's when when when you when you 0:40:03.560 --> 0:40:08.520 start getting into like it becomes this like you know, 0:40:08.960 --> 0:40:13.800 it becomes a way of just getting people to I 0:40:13.840 --> 0:40:15.960 don't know how to describe it, like it you know, 0:40:16.320 --> 0:40:23.800 when when when it starts being like this specific ethnic 0:40:23.920 --> 0:40:27.640 group as a whole is responsible for all of these crimes. 0:40:27.719 --> 0:40:30.560 Just like no, they're not like that's that's not that's 0:40:30.560 --> 0:40:33.200 not how this works. Like it's not like like like 0:40:33.360 --> 0:40:35.440 they're like there are like they're yeah, there's gonna be 0:40:35.480 --> 0:40:37.400 people in the ethnic group who did things that were awful. 0:40:37.440 --> 0:40:40.200 There's also going to be people, especially especially in a 0:40:40.280 --> 0:40:42.080 citation like this, there's there's a lot like a lot 0:40:42.239 --> 0:40:46.919 of probably more people who fought them. Yeah, and that like, yeah, 0:40:47.160 --> 0:40:50.200 that's such an interesting statement because I'm going to compare 0:40:50.320 --> 0:40:53.080 to the bossy and response after the genocide, which has 0:40:53.120 --> 0:40:58.160 consistently been no, we don't believe that every single service bad, 0:40:58.960 --> 0:41:01.400 and we were only talked about those that took place, 0:41:01.640 --> 0:41:04.799 took part in these crimes and those that concealed them. 0:41:05.640 --> 0:41:09.600 And that has always been the collective and state level 0:41:09.680 --> 0:41:13.480 response of all Bosans. Now you have to think about 0:41:14.080 --> 0:41:20.680 I have a friend who's who who's nine members of 0:41:20.760 --> 0:41:27.759 her family were killed in Stubriniza in July. That's an 0:41:27.840 --> 0:41:32.719 absorbinate number of people. These were women, children, and men 0:41:32.920 --> 0:41:36.959 and elderly. There was no discrimination when it Kimp comes 0:41:37.000 --> 0:41:40.759 to her. I'm sat with her as she's read all 0:41:40.840 --> 0:41:43.840 the names of her you know, killed the family members. 0:41:44.239 --> 0:41:46.560 That woman, with all the pain that she survived with 0:41:46.760 --> 0:41:50.440 being there as a young girl in the midst of genocide, 0:41:50.480 --> 0:41:54.160 in the midst of these her horrifying crimes, has never 0:41:54.400 --> 0:41:58.280 once publicly or privately to me said, yes, old serbs 0:41:58.320 --> 0:42:00.600 are the same. Yes, all of them are work aminals. Yes, 0:42:00.640 --> 0:42:03.840 all of them hate us, absolutely not. And the thing is, 0:42:04.200 --> 0:42:07.320 I think about myself as well, Like, you know, my 0:42:07.640 --> 0:42:11.120 earliest childhood memories me being shot at by a sniper, 0:42:11.600 --> 0:42:15.200 knowing my father was in a concentration camp, knowing that 0:42:15.320 --> 0:42:18.640 my grandmother was just killed by a bomb. Um knowing that, 0:42:18.880 --> 0:42:22.000 you know, my biological dad was dying in a hospital 0:42:22.080 --> 0:42:24.839 from an attack, and my mother could also be killed 0:42:24.960 --> 0:42:26.839 because she was pregnant with my brother at the time. 0:42:26.880 --> 0:42:30.600 And so these are my earliest childhood memories. Um, they're 0:42:30.640 --> 0:42:35.240 not very happy memories. And I know why those things happened. 0:42:35.520 --> 0:42:37.319 You know, I know why I was being shot at 0:42:37.360 --> 0:42:39.280 by a sniper, and it was because I was bossy, 0:42:39.360 --> 0:42:41.919 and it it was because I was Muslin, and because 0:42:41.920 --> 0:42:43.880 I was seen as the enemy, even though I was 0:42:44.000 --> 0:42:46.520 you know, a little kid at you know, six seven 0:42:46.600 --> 0:42:49.600 years old, um and absolutely not a threat to anyone, 0:42:49.680 --> 0:42:52.720 and nobody should have been shooting at me. They did. Anyway, 0:42:53.239 --> 0:42:57.120 Even though that happened, I never had that feeling of 0:42:57.719 --> 0:43:00.279 all serbs are awful, All serbs are you know, I'm 0:43:00.280 --> 0:43:02.759 going to paint them all with a brush. But a 0:43:02.880 --> 0:43:05.560 lot of them, unfortunately, especially on the you know, the 0:43:06.239 --> 0:43:10.279 the ultra nationalists that continue to not just the night 0:43:10.520 --> 0:43:14.320 the geniside, but also glorified and celebrate it. They do 0:43:14.840 --> 0:43:18.880 paint everyone with the same brush, you know. And and 0:43:19.040 --> 0:43:21.479 the worst thing, the funniest thing, is that they paint 0:43:21.560 --> 0:43:24.520 themselves with the same brush. You know. They they think 0:43:24.560 --> 0:43:28.480 that they get to speak for every single serve person um. 0:43:28.800 --> 0:43:32.800 And that's the tragic path. Like I'm not, I'm not. 0:43:33.560 --> 0:43:36.120 I get accused of like constantly talking to about serves 0:43:36.120 --> 0:43:39.040 and I'm like, I absolutely am not. I'm talking about 0:43:39.120 --> 0:43:41.880 the nationalists, And I will call out all the nationalists, 0:43:41.920 --> 0:43:47.080 whether they're bausi in Serpient, Croatian, American, whatever, But we're 0:43:47.120 --> 0:43:50.600 talking about you know, what you're doing to me and 0:43:50.719 --> 0:43:54.759 your response to my criticism of nationalism is actually the 0:43:54.840 --> 0:43:57.759 thing that's ruining your reputation. Yeah, it's it's the it's 0:43:57.800 --> 0:44:00.040 that it's that's the nationalist camp. It it's it's you 0:44:00.080 --> 0:44:02.319 have you have to conflate all of the individual people, 0:44:02.640 --> 0:44:04.319 the ethnic group, and the state. They all they all 0:44:04.320 --> 0:44:05.480 have to be this like, you know, this must be 0:44:05.520 --> 0:44:08.320 this organic totality, and it's not true. It's just not. 0:44:08.480 --> 0:44:10.360 But that's you know, that's that's that's the sort of 0:44:11.200 --> 0:44:13.920 it's it's the motus apperanda behind their entire ideology, and 0:44:13.960 --> 0:44:17.600 it's what they deploy, you know, it's what they deploy 0:44:17.600 --> 0:44:19.480 when the genocides, is what they deploy when they have 0:44:19.600 --> 0:44:25.840 to sort of like you know, sort of promoted openly 0:44:25.960 --> 0:44:30.239 or less openly afterwards. Yeah, it's like that justification, it's 0:44:30.280 --> 0:44:35.279 how they justify it. Yeah, And like we all know 0:44:35.360 --> 0:44:40.680 about the ten stages of genocide. But my colleague um, 0:44:41.800 --> 0:44:50.080 who's brilliant actually has often talked about that the nihilism 0:44:50.239 --> 0:44:54.360 is not really the final stage of genocide. It is 0:44:54.480 --> 0:44:59.000 in fact triumphalism um. And that's what we're actually seeing 0:44:59.040 --> 0:45:03.200 in Bosnia. You know, we're not I get genocide denialism 0:45:03.320 --> 0:45:07.400 from American leftists and like British leftists who are on 0:45:07.520 --> 0:45:13.759 a certain spectrum. And obviously I don't get genocide denialism 0:45:14.080 --> 0:45:18.279 from et No nationalists sorbs. What I get from them 0:45:18.400 --> 0:45:24.359 actually is very openly celebrating and threatening another genocide. They 0:45:24.360 --> 0:45:28.000 are not in my mentions saying oh there was no genocide, 0:45:28.840 --> 0:45:31.920 uh Darren, my mentions saying no one shops a Steba 0:45:31.960 --> 0:45:34.720 and so, which is basically a slogan that says knife 0:45:35.200 --> 0:45:39.239 wire serbonida and it's like basically a threat that another 0:45:39.320 --> 0:45:42.040 Serebani that will occur. They're in my mentions, in my 0:45:42.239 --> 0:45:45.200 emails and in my d M s sending me threats 0:45:45.239 --> 0:45:47.480 about how they can't wait till I'm put in a 0:45:47.600 --> 0:45:50.920 rape camp again, How they can't wait untill they kill 0:45:51.000 --> 0:45:54.040 my family, until sorry ever gets bombed again, and how 0:45:54.719 --> 0:45:57.640 you know we're they're gonna finish the job. How Ram 0:45:58.200 --> 0:46:00.840 is a hero because he killed all those you know, 0:46:01.360 --> 0:46:05.360 people in Serbonizza and sugared Um kata juch is a 0:46:05.400 --> 0:46:07.600 hero because he's the same Milosha, which is a hero 0:46:07.800 --> 0:46:11.640 because he believes in a greater Serbian. These people don't 0:46:11.840 --> 0:46:15.719 hide it um and that's the thing. So it's it's 0:46:15.840 --> 0:46:19.440 very like just today, you know, the first thing in 0:46:19.480 --> 0:46:22.040 the morning, I opened my Twitter and the first thing 0:46:22.239 --> 0:46:27.880 that I see is a Bossian activist arrested for protesting 0:46:27.960 --> 0:46:31.240 the dot com La Ditch mural which the Serbian police 0:46:31.880 --> 0:46:38.200 were guarding. They were guarding a mural get like a 0:46:38.360 --> 0:46:42.440 mural of a war criminal who committed genocide, who who 0:46:42.640 --> 0:46:47.799 everybody knows committed genocide, a mural glorifying him. They were 0:46:48.160 --> 0:46:52.040 got the police were guarding, you know, the mural and 0:46:52.480 --> 0:46:56.759 inflicting damage on innocent civilians who were there too, you know, 0:46:56.880 --> 0:46:59.680 protest against the mural. And so I think that really 0:46:59.760 --> 0:47:05.040 tells too so much the issue in the Balkans. This 0:47:05.160 --> 0:47:07.759 has when it could happen here. Join us tomorrow for 0:47:07.840 --> 0:47:10.360 part two of this interview, in which we discuss the 0:47:10.480 --> 0:47:13.680 dangers of what's currently happening in Bosnia. In the meantime, 0:47:14.360 --> 0:47:17.840 find us on Twitter It Happened here pod, and you 0:47:17.880 --> 0:47:20.879 can find us on Twitter and Instagram for the rest 0:47:20.960 --> 0:47:27.879 of our shows at cool zone Medio. It could Happen 0:47:27.920 --> 0:47:30.239 Here is a production of cool zone Media. Or more 0:47:30.280 --> 0:47:33.040 podcasts from cool zone Media. Visit our website cool zone 0:47:33.080 --> 0:47:34.920 media dot com or check us out on the I 0:47:35.040 --> 0:47:38.279 Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 0:47:38.880 --> 0:47:40.960 You can find sources for it could Happen Here, updated 0:47:41.080 --> 0:47:44.520 monthly at cool zone Media dot com slash sources. Thanks 0:47:44.560 --> 0:47:45.040 for listening.