1 00:00:05,559 --> 00:00:07,960 Speaker 1: Blow and welcome to It could Happen Here a podcast 2 00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:12,360 Speaker 1: about the continual state of bad things happening and how 3 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:15,440 Speaker 1: sometimes you can make them less bad or not happen. 4 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:19,400 Speaker 1: And today we're gonna I'm Christopher Wong, by the way, 5 00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:23,240 Speaker 1: and today we're gonna be talking about Bosnia, a place 6 00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 1: where things went about as bad as they possibly can, 7 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:35,160 Speaker 1: and about how they're heading in very scary directions now. 8 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:38,400 Speaker 1: And with us to talk about this is Arnessa Kustra. 9 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:42,919 Speaker 1: Arnessa is a genocide survivor and a academic expert on 10 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 1: genocides in general. Arnessa, how how are you doing? You know, 11 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 1: I'm doing okay. I think all things considered, you know, 12 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 1: being sort of bombarded on a daily basis with you know, 13 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:04,039 Speaker 1: possible threat um and talks about you know, a new 14 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:07,840 Speaker 1: conflict war brewing in the Balkans is the thing. Not 15 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:13,679 Speaker 1: an easy thing to convent, definitely not. Yeah, But other 16 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 1: than that, I'm doing great. Thanks for asking. I'm glad. 17 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:20,959 Speaker 1: I'm glad. I'm glad you could be here with me 18 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:25,479 Speaker 1: today because the Balkans extremely complicated place, which I guess 19 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:28,000 Speaker 1: the story of both places. But yeah, and so I 20 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:29,560 Speaker 1: guess that that's that's where I wanted to go with 21 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:36,440 Speaker 1: my first question, because reading about what's happening now, my 22 00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:39,680 Speaker 1: first instinct was go back to the day and accords. 23 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:42,720 Speaker 1: But I'm actually not sure that that's that that's that's 24 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:44,640 Speaker 1: that's even the best place to start, And so I 25 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:48,920 Speaker 1: wanted I wanted to, I guess ask you if so, okay, 26 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:51,400 Speaker 1: so if if if you're coming into looking at the 27 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 1: Balkans for the first time and you're trying to understand 28 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 1: what's going on, now, where do you think is the 29 00:01:57,040 --> 00:02:00,720 Speaker 1: best place to start on it? Because I think you 30 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 1: know the best. God, it's not we're talking about so 31 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:10,920 Speaker 1: much history, honestly, But the thing is, let's you know, 32 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:15,240 Speaker 1: let's start with the death of Tito. That's always a 33 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 1: good place, I think, because that's really when things started 34 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:23,560 Speaker 1: to kind of shift in the Balkans and the former 35 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 1: you know, socialist udo Slavia was really once Tito died 36 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:34,440 Speaker 1: and his place became, you know empty as this sort 37 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 1: of unifying factor of all the various ethnicities and nationalities 38 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 1: within Yugoslavia. You know, once he was gone, that sort 39 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 1: of left this vacuum that needed to be filled, and unfortunately, 40 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 1: instead of being filled, by another socialist you know, pro equality, 41 00:02:53,280 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 1: pro unity leader. It was filled with a nationalist uh, 42 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 1: which is kind of where we still are unfortunately. Um. 43 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:09,560 Speaker 1: You know, it started obviously with with little things I think, 44 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:16,520 Speaker 1: with little sort of conversations and and little subtle I guess, 45 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:20,840 Speaker 1: you know, Ethno nationalist rhetorics, and it just kind of 46 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 1: like grew and spiraled from there. And obviously, you know, 47 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 1: that sort of thing led to Miloshevich and Kosovo giving 48 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 1: his infamous speech, which kind of really gave that full 49 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:42,120 Speaker 1: fledged stamp on. Okay, yes, this is a ultra nationalists, 50 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:46,400 Speaker 1: you know, Ethno nationalist president that we now have, UM, 51 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 1: who's threatening war across the other ethnicities. What do we 52 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 1: do next? Um? And at that point, you know, that's 53 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:59,120 Speaker 1: when you sort of see the other countries start to secede, 54 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:03,360 Speaker 1: you know, Slova, India, Croatia, they're attacked by Serbia and 55 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 1: then obviously eventually it goes down to Bosnia. UM. And yeah, 56 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:12,680 Speaker 1: I mean it starts with yethno nationalism, as it always does, 57 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:18,679 Speaker 1: I think. Um, you know, I don't think we're anything 58 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:23,480 Speaker 1: special in terms of having conflict with our neighbors. Look 59 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:27,720 Speaker 1: at France and England or in our or America and 60 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:31,320 Speaker 1: Mexico or anyone. Really it's just you know, I think 61 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:34,240 Speaker 1: people make it sound as if we're special or we 62 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:37,599 Speaker 1: have these ancient hatreds, but you know that's not really true. 63 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:40,800 Speaker 1: It all comes down to the freaking politics and the leaders. 64 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 1: And unfortunately, you know, Middlitchevitch was removed, but is policy 65 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 1: is um beliefs continue to kind of stick around. You know. 66 00:04:56,040 --> 00:05:01,680 Speaker 1: I think, uh, you know, people thing people like Miloshevitch 67 00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 1: and Radovan Katach, who were you know, genocidal war criminals, 68 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:09,640 Speaker 1: as a thing of the past. But really you look 69 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:15,120 Speaker 1: at you know, the Serbian president um or the republic 70 00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 1: Subska president and they are really just the continuation of 71 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:27,080 Speaker 1: Katach and Miloshevitch UM. So nothing, you know, has fundamentally 72 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:31,120 Speaker 1: changed since Tito died, except you know, we got some 73 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:35,840 Speaker 1: new agreements, we got some new territories, some new ethnic 74 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 1: lients drawn up, and not a new pretty buildings too. 75 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 1: We have those now as well, but we don't really 76 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:49,000 Speaker 1: have that coexistence um, at least that on paper, not 77 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:53,279 Speaker 1: in politics. Certainly. I want to go back for a 78 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:58,480 Speaker 1: second too. I guess the moment of Chito dying because 79 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:02,560 Speaker 1: It's always been a sort of interesting thing looking at 80 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 1: it for me because I remember, I mean, you know, 81 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 1: so from from studying Chinese history, right there, there's a 82 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 1: period where in the seventies where okay, like everyone's looking 83 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 1: for reform in China, and you know what, what you 84 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 1: would consider like the sort of the I guess you 85 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:18,560 Speaker 1: could call them the I don't know, left and right 86 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 1: is complicated in China, but you know, they're like there 87 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 1: there are a lot of sort of what you would 88 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:27,240 Speaker 1: call like the sort of left socialist like democratic reformers. 89 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 1: Who are you know, I mean people people like they're 90 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 1: looking at Yugoslavia as a model and they're going, oh, 91 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:33,720 Speaker 1: we can have like workers participation and we can have 92 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:40,279 Speaker 1: we can have these democratic enterprises. And then that just implodes, 93 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:42,160 Speaker 1: and and yeah, I wonder if we can talk a 94 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:45,720 Speaker 1: little bit about more about that, because my my very 95 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:48,720 Speaker 1: limited understanding of it was like there's an economic crisis 96 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 1: from the oil shocks, and then once Tito dies, it's 97 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:58,920 Speaker 1: just like the wheels come off the whole system. I mean, 98 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:01,720 Speaker 1: that's a really good way of putting it. Um you know, 99 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 1: like life in Yugoslavia. I don't think it was like 100 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 1: ever perfect, and I definitely don't think it was a 101 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:11,240 Speaker 1: perfect system. I think you know, me being a Bosnian 102 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:16,200 Speaker 1: who was born to Vary, I think pro Yugoslav parents. Um. 103 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:21,000 Speaker 1: I just like many of my you know, fellow Yugoslavs 104 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:24,680 Speaker 1: or x Yugoslavs, have a tendency to look at Yugoslavia 105 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 1: with like rose colored lenses. You know. We think about 106 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:35,400 Speaker 1: the coexistence, the unity, the multi ethnic part, the worker 107 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:40,320 Speaker 1: owned you know, socialist models, the fact that our parents, um, 108 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:43,080 Speaker 1: you know, we're able to provide for their families and 109 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:47,600 Speaker 1: take vacations and travel and um, you know, get together 110 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:50,480 Speaker 1: and all these sort of wonderful things. But in the background, 111 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:53,880 Speaker 1: really in the sort of depths of the you know, 112 00:07:54,000 --> 00:08:02,000 Speaker 1: politics and the economic issues were kind of always there. Um. 113 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 1: You know. The one thing that Tito did was obviously 114 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 1: he relied unlike I think other socialist leaders of his 115 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 1: time is you know, he basically worked with anyone, you know, 116 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:19,800 Speaker 1: the non align movement, but also with the West, with Europe, 117 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:23,120 Speaker 1: you know. So he was a very picky choosy I 118 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:27,880 Speaker 1: think was you know, the betterment of the country by 119 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 1: kind of any means necessary. Um. But I think you know, 120 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:40,600 Speaker 1: he made mistakes just like um other leaders do. And 121 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 1: I think obviously we had, you know, two issues. One 122 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 1: he was sick, he was dying, um. And two there's 123 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 1: an economic crisis happening. Um. And three then we had 124 00:08:53,160 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 1: like the economic reforms, which really shifted the entire I mean, 125 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 1: they just they very much shifted the the system that 126 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:08,559 Speaker 1: the Yugoslav people were very much used to. UM. It 127 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:12,800 Speaker 1: became more and more prior, you know, privatized after his death. UM. 128 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:17,800 Speaker 1: And and you know, Miloshevich, he was he was a banker, 129 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:23,679 Speaker 1: he was a businessman. He was he was who he was. UM. 130 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:26,559 Speaker 1: And I don't think that he ever really pretended to 131 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:30,080 Speaker 1: be a socialist, which is why I get so upset 132 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 1: when American leftists call him a socialist or call him 133 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:38,920 Speaker 1: an anti imperialist, because those aren't even words that you know, 134 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:43,400 Speaker 1: he himself would have really used to describe himself. I think. 135 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:49,880 Speaker 1: But but I think, you know, there was just it 136 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:54,440 Speaker 1: was that sort of thing where there's an economic crisis brewing, 137 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:59,200 Speaker 1: they have no wise to really fix it. People are broke, 138 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:04,079 Speaker 1: people are starving. Suddenly the ownership, the worker you know 139 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:06,920 Speaker 1: owned sort of model is being shifted to a more 140 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:11,719 Speaker 1: privatized model. And people are just not happy. What's a 141 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:17,800 Speaker 1: good way to distract from that? You know, It's just 142 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:22,280 Speaker 1: we see it happen everywhere. It's not a new it's 143 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:25,360 Speaker 1: not like a new you know tactic. It's a tactic 144 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:30,839 Speaker 1: that everyone has utilized. Blame it on the other. Um. So, 145 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:34,000 Speaker 1: Yugoslavia didn't really have you know, immigrants that they could 146 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:38,240 Speaker 1: blame it on, but they had Muslims. So and they 147 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:41,679 Speaker 1: had the Kasabo you know, Albanians and the Bossians, and 148 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:49,040 Speaker 1: that was, you know enough, and suddenly the conversation really shifted. 149 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:53,800 Speaker 1: And obviously I'm simplifying all of this a lot, so 150 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 1: much more complicated. Um. But you know, there there are 151 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:02,000 Speaker 1: books out there and and that obviously go into a 152 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:06,440 Speaker 1: great you know level of detail, um, into the actual 153 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 1: sort of breakup. So I can give some recommendations later. 154 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:14,360 Speaker 1: But um yeah. But I think in in in that 155 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 1: sort of very simplistic kind of sense, is there was 156 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:20,319 Speaker 1: an economic crisis happening. A good way to sort of 157 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:24,240 Speaker 1: distract that was the use of ethno nationalism, and it 158 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:27,800 Speaker 1: just kind of spiraled from there. I think, you know 159 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:31,439 Speaker 1: what Miloshevitch and what people like Miloshevitch always wants more 160 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:37,160 Speaker 1: power for themselves, and so his whole thing wasn't really 161 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:42,880 Speaker 1: ever about keeping Yugoslavia intact as Yugoslavia. It was keeping 162 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 1: this vision of a greater Serbia alive. Because the thing is, 163 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:53,040 Speaker 1: you know, if we had not had a person like Miloshevitch, 164 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:55,680 Speaker 1: if we just had somebody who was you know, the second, 165 00:11:55,840 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 1: you know, maybe more or less worse or better, who cares. 166 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:03,040 Speaker 1: I think people would have been fine. I think, you know, 167 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:06,480 Speaker 1: I don't see this like war breaking now. But instead 168 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:09,199 Speaker 1: we had Miloshevich who was like way more concerned about 169 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:13,679 Speaker 1: consolidating power, exerting that control. And when he realized that 170 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:17,000 Speaker 1: he could use ethno nationalism to get to his goals, 171 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 1: of course he was going to use that. Of course, 172 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:22,559 Speaker 1: like who wouldn't you know, we see it today with 173 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:26,480 Speaker 1: like what Trump did. He utilized you know, Muslims and 174 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:29,719 Speaker 1: immigrants and refugees and black people, all his scapeboats to 175 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:33,319 Speaker 1: distract from all the other things that are wrong with him, 176 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:37,480 Speaker 1: his leadership and the overall country. And Miloshevich did the same. 177 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 1: He just did what any other politician did. And you know, 178 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 1: that's the thing I think, you know, in thinking about Bosnia, Croatia, 179 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:48,679 Speaker 1: Slovenia and all these countries that started to succeed, I 180 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:55,760 Speaker 1: think if they had felt comfortable with, you know, staying 181 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 1: in a country that is multi ethnic, at least in 182 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:00,599 Speaker 1: the case of Bosnians, and not going to speak for 183 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:02,719 Speaker 1: the Slovania's or croations because they have their own I 184 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:10,640 Speaker 1: think complicated identity. But with Bosnians, are are saying collectively, 185 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:13,880 Speaker 1: I think while we're not a monologue, not monolith, but 186 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:20,080 Speaker 1: collectively was always where are united? We are multi ethnic, 187 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:24,679 Speaker 1: multi religious, multi cultural, and it's such a big part 188 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 1: of like our entire history and identity. And so if 189 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:37,720 Speaker 1: the choices being you know, under served, control, being secondary citizens, 190 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:42,559 Speaker 1: not having that equality, not having that multi ethnicity, of 191 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:44,679 Speaker 1: course we're not going to take that choice. Of course 192 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:47,040 Speaker 1: people are gonna want to you know, when when you 193 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:50,040 Speaker 1: have like that, you know, that boot on your neck 194 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:53,440 Speaker 1: of saying like we're going to control you, We're gonna 195 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:56,160 Speaker 1: take your land and we're gonna basically rule over you. 196 00:13:56,320 --> 00:13:59,559 Speaker 1: Nobody wants to deal with that. And you know, unlike 197 00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:05,600 Speaker 1: a lot of the other countries in former Yugoslavia, Bosnia 198 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:08,959 Speaker 1: really was the most multi ethnic. It had one of 199 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 1: the highest rates of you know, mixed ethnic marriages and 200 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:17,880 Speaker 1: multi religious marriages, and that kind of remains true even today. 201 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 1: So especially in places like sary Evo, Mostadaniluka, you know, 202 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:26,600 Speaker 1: the bigger cities, it has this very proud history of 203 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:31,560 Speaker 1: you know, coexistence and multiethnic co existence. So I think 204 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:36,920 Speaker 1: what happened for so many people was just a huge 205 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:41,240 Speaker 1: amount of shock. Um, my own family, so many people 206 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:44,560 Speaker 1: in my own family just did not think it could happen. Now. 207 00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 1: They grew up with this idea of a united you know, 208 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:57,320 Speaker 1: multi ethnic Yugoslavia, brotherhood and unity. These are our neighbors, 209 00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:03,200 Speaker 1: our friends, our teachers, are lovers, you know whatever. There 210 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:05,600 Speaker 1: they work with us, they live next to us. Of 211 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 1: course they're not gonna you know, turn against us. And 212 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 1: I think even while all the politicians were fearmongering, while 213 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:16,520 Speaker 1: you know, Miloshevitch and Kataguge were sort of leading their 214 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:23,520 Speaker 1: campaigns of you know, especially as lamophobic provacad propaganda, um, 215 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:27,280 Speaker 1: you know, in in newspapers, on the radio, on TV, 216 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:30,800 Speaker 1: any chance that any speech that they gave, they talked 217 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:32,720 Speaker 1: about how the Muslims were coming, we were going to 218 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 1: make their daughters wear her jobs, we were gonna take over. 219 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 1: We're going to kill them, you know before that's why 220 00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 1: they have to kill us, because they don't pill us. 221 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:43,360 Speaker 1: We're going to kill them. It was just whole, you know, 222 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 1: really brilliant propaganda campaign in so many ways that has 223 00:15:49,120 --> 00:16:02,200 Speaker 1: now been replicated in so many other countries. We can 224 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:05,840 Speaker 1: We've talked about that specifically for yes. Second, because I 225 00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 1: think there's something interesting in the way that, like the 226 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:13,960 Speaker 1: way that you get people to do with genocide always 227 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:17,520 Speaker 1: seems to be like you can't. It's extremely hard to 228 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:21,240 Speaker 1: get someone to like just murder their neighbor because they 229 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:23,680 Speaker 1: don't like them. You have to do this like they're 230 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:25,400 Speaker 1: about to exterminate us, and that's why we have to 231 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:29,240 Speaker 1: like strike first. And that Yeah, that that that aspect 232 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:31,320 Speaker 1: of it, I think is is something that I see 233 00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:34,000 Speaker 1: a lot when when I do this and yeah, you 234 00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:37,720 Speaker 1: you have you have done more genocide studies, I want 235 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:42,000 Speaker 1: to hear. Yeah. I mean, here's the thing. Um, it's 236 00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:44,560 Speaker 1: so funny. I gave like an interview um on this 237 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 1: specific topic I don't know, like two years ago, and 238 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 1: I remember turning to the guy who has interviewing me 239 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:53,840 Speaker 1: because he was just like his look on his face 240 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:57,160 Speaker 1: was I just don't understand, Like I don't. I can't 241 00:16:57,160 --> 00:16:59,520 Speaker 1: wrap my mind about how people could do that to 242 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:04,639 Speaker 1: their friends, neighbors, students, you know, people that were sworn 243 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:08,479 Speaker 1: to like protect and and people they lived with their 244 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:11,399 Speaker 1: entire lives. How could they do that? Well, you know, 245 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:12,919 Speaker 1: I turned to him and I said, yeah, I mean, 246 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:16,280 Speaker 1: if I told you right now go kill him, you 247 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:19,440 Speaker 1: know you probably wouldn't. But if I came to you 248 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:23,639 Speaker 1: day in and day out and I slowly started to 249 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:26,920 Speaker 1: kind of whisper in your ear, and I started to 250 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:30,440 Speaker 1: tell you, you know, he's been really really I don't know, 251 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:32,960 Speaker 1: he's been saying a lot of stuff about you. He's 252 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:37,080 Speaker 1: been quite negative or I don't know, you know, do 253 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:38,960 Speaker 1: you think he's kind of acting weird? I feel like 254 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:42,000 Speaker 1: he might be planning something. You might be planning to 255 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:44,760 Speaker 1: take over your house. You may be planning to I 256 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:46,720 Speaker 1: don't know, probably attack your sister. I think he's going 257 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:48,639 Speaker 1: to kill your sister. I think you might make your 258 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:51,560 Speaker 1: sister wear her job. So it's these very like slow, 259 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:54,280 Speaker 1: subtle things. And that's the thing that people don't understand. 260 00:17:54,880 --> 00:18:00,919 Speaker 1: You know, violence never interrupts, like, never up out of nowhere, 261 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:06,479 Speaker 1: you know, it it's always planned. It brewis and it bruise, 262 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:08,639 Speaker 1: and it bruised, and then it explodes. You know, then 263 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:12,040 Speaker 1: there's the thing. But it comes slowly. And that's how 264 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:16,080 Speaker 1: it wasn't Yugoslavia. It wasn't this sudden. You know. Oh, yes, 265 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:20,200 Speaker 1: we're brothers and sisters. Forever, Go Tito, go Yugoslavia too. 266 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:22,639 Speaker 1: You know, Oh, I hate you because you're Muslim, and 267 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:24,520 Speaker 1: I hate you because your servant, I hate you because 268 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:27,360 Speaker 1: you're croact. No, that was not the case. The case 269 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:31,800 Speaker 1: was that this was a very slow campaign of propaganda 270 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 1: that started in the eighties, almost immediately after Tito's death. 271 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:40,680 Speaker 1: Let's say it started very slow, started with the you know, 272 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:44,080 Speaker 1: with the sort of i think the disenfranchisement of the 273 00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:48,640 Speaker 1: coast of all Albanians um and kind of the targeting 274 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:52,760 Speaker 1: of them um. And again, yes, there was this economic 275 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:54,879 Speaker 1: component on of it, but the way they wanted to 276 00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:59,120 Speaker 1: kind of sidetrack that was, you know, well, you're you're 277 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:03,240 Speaker 1: hungry because thes of Albanians are not, you know, and 278 00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:08,119 Speaker 1: they're taking your jobs again some more, uh, you know, 279 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:12,120 Speaker 1: tactics that we see evening. Yeah, so it's not it's 280 00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:14,520 Speaker 1: not that much different, but yeah, you know, it starts 281 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:18,560 Speaker 1: slow and and the Militievitch and the cottage and the 282 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:22,400 Speaker 1: Maladich kind of campaigning was God, it was brutal. I mean, 283 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:25,440 Speaker 1: like I always say, it was kind of brilliantly executed 284 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:29,720 Speaker 1: in that it really got two people so much that 285 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:33,119 Speaker 1: then again, you know, they turned neighbor against neighbor. It 286 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:37,280 Speaker 1: was it was subtle in the beginning. It was that 287 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:40,200 Speaker 1: sort of what are the Muslims up to? Can we 288 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:42,800 Speaker 1: trust them? Can you trust your neighbor? Can you trust 289 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:47,240 Speaker 1: the Muslims? You know, talking about islam sization, talking about 290 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:49,480 Speaker 1: Alia is a big of which this book that he 291 00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:51,960 Speaker 1: wrote when he was like I don't know, eighteen or 292 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:56,760 Speaker 1: or whatever, like, and you know, talking about World War two, 293 00:19:56,920 --> 00:20:00,480 Speaker 1: this was another thing, like like everybody owns that there 294 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:02,399 Speaker 1: was a period in World War Two where you know 295 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:05,600 Speaker 1: a lot of Serbs were killed by Guster shaw Uh, 296 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:10,560 Speaker 1: by the Nazi collaborationists. And I think obviously that's a 297 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 1: real fear for you know, for a certain group of 298 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:16,239 Speaker 1: people who went through that. So there was a lot 299 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:18,120 Speaker 1: of that as well, you know, that's going to happen again, 300 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:22,800 Speaker 1: That's going to happen again. Meanwhile, there was no grand plan. 301 00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:27,440 Speaker 1: There was never even talks of you know, committing violence 302 00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:31,280 Speaker 1: or even you know, talks of you know, seceding from 303 00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:37,440 Speaker 1: Yugoslavia or anything. It was all it was all set 304 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:41,520 Speaker 1: in motion by the Serbian leadership, you know. And I 305 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:47,040 Speaker 1: think that's what people don't understand. The Bousian leadership, while 306 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 1: not perfect, we're simply reacting to what the Serbian leadership 307 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:55,480 Speaker 1: was in many ways making them do. And and that's 308 00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:59,280 Speaker 1: kind of where, you know, what happens in these situations. 309 00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:00,760 Speaker 1: You know, they kind of push you and push you 310 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:04,520 Speaker 1: and push you until they're able to get you know, 311 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:07,560 Speaker 1: some sort of rise out of you or response out 312 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:10,200 Speaker 1: of you, or or get you on that sort of 313 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:13,399 Speaker 1: offensive where you have to defend yourself, You have to 314 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:15,440 Speaker 1: defend your identity, you have to defend who you are, 315 00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 1: you have to justify it also in many ways. So yeah, 316 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:25,160 Speaker 1: the you know, the sort of propaganda campaign, god, there 317 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:29,080 Speaker 1: was you know, obviously the funny things were like things 318 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:30,640 Speaker 1: like they're going to make you wear the hit job, 319 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 1: but it was also very insiduous because they would target 320 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:41,880 Speaker 1: like these you know, villages where they were like Bosnians 321 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:45,200 Speaker 1: and Serbs, you know, living together and they're quite small, 322 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:49,359 Speaker 1: but they knew that like in the village obviously usually 323 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:51,879 Speaker 1: have a gun or you know shotgun because of the 324 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:55,400 Speaker 1: animals or you know, working or whatever. So they were 325 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:58,600 Speaker 1: like target them specifically with like the you know, the 326 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:03,119 Speaker 1: radioto and instead of like the big cities, Like they 327 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:05,800 Speaker 1: worked up to the big cities, but they really started 328 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 1: in like specific sort of areas like in eastern Bosnia, 329 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:12,440 Speaker 1: especially because there was like a lot of um i 330 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:16,800 Speaker 1: think majority Muslim like villages in that area that would 331 00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:20,240 Speaker 1: also have like nearby served villages. So yeah, I mean 332 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:22,159 Speaker 1: there was that. There was you know then sort of 333 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 1: taking over all the radio stations and um kind of 334 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:30,960 Speaker 1: going full force. They think like in the sort of 335 00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:36,440 Speaker 1: early days of the war, like we're talking April May, 336 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:43,560 Speaker 1: they you know, they would get people like pretending that 337 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:46,560 Speaker 1: they were Bosnians they were actually Serbs, and they would 338 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:49,560 Speaker 1: like talk about how they went to you know, kill 339 00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 1: all Serbs or something like that. Um. There was also 340 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:56,160 Speaker 1: when they were like having people in concentration camps where 341 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:59,360 Speaker 1: they like started kind of putting them in those concentration camps. Initially, 342 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:05,560 Speaker 1: they they would make the victims in the concentration camps 343 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:09,760 Speaker 1: the Muslims basically, you know, say that, oh, they're just 344 00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:14,960 Speaker 1: there as a refugee and the Serbian army is like 345 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:18,520 Speaker 1: protecting them, and they're making me feel really welcome and 346 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:22,160 Speaker 1: stuff like that. So it was right at the beginning 347 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:28,600 Speaker 1: between especially eighty nine too, like the propaganda was so 348 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:33,880 Speaker 1: visible and it really escalated, and it was like suddenly 349 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:39,160 Speaker 1: everywhere and you would hear cartategic and Middle we Shovitch 350 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:43,440 Speaker 1: talk about, you know, the Muslims and the things that 351 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:46,919 Speaker 1: we wanted and you know, the things that the goals 352 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:49,119 Speaker 1: that we had, which after all, we're not you know, 353 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:52,480 Speaker 1: nobody was saying it. There wasn't like a single person 354 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:55,159 Speaker 1: that was saying these things that they were attributing to us. 355 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:58,240 Speaker 1: But that didn't matter. What they were just doing was 356 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:03,040 Speaker 1: instilling enough fear and enough doubt into population to eventually 357 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:05,600 Speaker 1: get them to take up arms when the time comes. 358 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:10,080 Speaker 1: And unfortunately, that's precisely what happened. When the time came. 359 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:12,920 Speaker 1: You know a lot of people did take up arms, 360 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:15,960 Speaker 1: whether or not they wanted to. They had enough of 361 00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:19,680 Speaker 1: that doubt and fear stowed in their minds over the 362 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:22,280 Speaker 1: course of you know, several years that they ended up 363 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:26,760 Speaker 1: feeling like I have to protect myself. And I'm not 364 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:29,240 Speaker 1: saying that's the case for every certain person. I think 365 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:35,159 Speaker 1: some a lot of you know, especially in higher leadership posmissions, 366 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:38,240 Speaker 1: a lot of them were just sociopaths who wanted to kill. 367 00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:42,600 Speaker 1: And I don't think it mattered why or how, because 368 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:45,320 Speaker 1: you're always going to get those kind of people. But 369 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:50,959 Speaker 1: I think when we're talking about how how that shift 370 00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:54,400 Speaker 1: happened so last, we have to obviously discuss the propaganda, 371 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:58,040 Speaker 1: the huge amount of propaganda that I went into, uh, 372 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 1: you know, implementing it. So I guess such a tangent. 373 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:05,960 Speaker 1: That's okay, No, no, that was that was that was 374 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:09,399 Speaker 1: really great? Yeah, I think you know, yeah, I mean, 375 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:14,840 Speaker 1: I guess, like I think it's incredibly important for everyone 376 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,920 Speaker 1: to understand that propaganda works, like if you just say 377 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:20,280 Speaker 1: something over and over and over again, like it does, 378 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:24,680 Speaker 1: you know of event eventually it pays off. And you know, 379 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:30,880 Speaker 1: the quote unquote payoff here is the genocide. And I guess, yeah, 380 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:33,639 Speaker 1: I'm not sure how far into detail you want to 381 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:38,439 Speaker 1: get into this here, but but I think one thing 382 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:41,240 Speaker 1: I want to kind of focus on because I think 383 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:44,800 Speaker 1: from from reading what you've been saying about this that 384 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:47,960 Speaker 1: this wound up being a big deal with like why 385 00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:51,760 Speaker 1: things are sort of still fucked now, which is that 386 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:54,439 Speaker 1: like the international response to this, Like, I mean, one 387 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:56,359 Speaker 1: of the things I've always just like haunted by is 388 00:25:56,560 --> 00:26:00,640 Speaker 1: there's this quote by mid irand who's the herm Mr 389 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:02,560 Speaker 1: France's like this, he wants to be the socialist. He's 390 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:04,480 Speaker 1: like the guy that like they finally put in power 391 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:06,080 Speaker 1: after like all of the stuff in the sixties, and 392 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:10,280 Speaker 1: he is this lying about like I'm sorry, I wish 393 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:12,920 Speaker 1: I wish I tould up the exact quote, but it's 394 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:18,000 Speaker 1: basically like I I know the quote, Yeah, do you 395 00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:21,960 Speaker 1: want to say it over the exactly? Um, it's uh, 396 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:30,200 Speaker 1: it's what was it? A peaceful but necessary reconstruction of 397 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:36,480 Speaker 1: a Christian europe um and Bosnia does not belong. So 398 00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:41,000 Speaker 1: I remember that differently. It's really stayed with me for 399 00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:43,280 Speaker 1: such a long time because he said that at a 400 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:48,920 Speaker 1: time where the Bosnian Muslims were just completely defenseless. Um, 401 00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:51,919 Speaker 1: they were being dragged the way to concentrate shim camps. 402 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:55,680 Speaker 1: The massacres were already well underway. We're not talking about stubborn, 403 00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:03,800 Speaker 1: We're talking about sorry about flat um even Surbrins nine two. 404 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:07,399 Speaker 1: You know, this is all um, the things that happened 405 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:11,080 Speaker 1: in places like witchcoens running and all these places that 406 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:13,920 Speaker 1: you that I think the vast majority of people don't 407 00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:18,359 Speaker 1: really know about any here about, like in a lot 408 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:20,920 Speaker 1: of my family is from there. Within a span of 409 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:26,040 Speaker 1: three months, that entire town, the entire town, which was 410 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:34,119 Speaker 1: once almost entirely Bosnia muslim Um, was ethnically cleansed. And 411 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:39,200 Speaker 1: that was done through forced deportations, concentration camps, mass rapes, 412 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:42,600 Speaker 1: and rape camps of women and obviously a lot of murders. 413 00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:45,680 Speaker 1: You know. So we're talking about one small town that 414 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:50,159 Speaker 1: took you know, three three months. And my family when 415 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:53,320 Speaker 1: it comes to that town, on both my mother's and 416 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 1: my father's side, interestingly enough, has like such a long history. 417 00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:59,200 Speaker 1: My parents fell in love there when they were like kids, 418 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:03,480 Speaker 1: you know, they you know, my grandmother's house was there, 419 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:07,679 Speaker 1: my grandfather's house was there. Um on like both sides, 420 00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:10,840 Speaker 1: and they you know, so is this beautiful little town 421 00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:15,680 Speaker 1: where you know Bosnians then Bosniaks and serves and CoA 422 00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:19,720 Speaker 1: hads lived in Jews Roma and you know, my parents 423 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:22,320 Speaker 1: talked about the beauty of it and this wonderful sort 424 00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:24,680 Speaker 1: of experience that they had when they lived there. My 425 00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:28,679 Speaker 1: mom is from Saraebo, UM and I saw my as 426 00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:31,240 Speaker 1: well obviously, but the Chad was like the place that 427 00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:33,080 Speaker 1: she would go kind of like for the weekend, just 428 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:36,240 Speaker 1: because of the family that we had there. UM so 429 00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 1: very special. I think in her heart my grandpa's heart 430 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:45,960 Speaker 1: as well, and you know, within it's just like so 431 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:50,360 Speaker 1: hard to like fathom that within just a few months 432 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:54,200 Speaker 1: that talent was completely ethnically climes and that the international 433 00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:58,080 Speaker 1: community knew this and did nothing. You know, there is 434 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:01,640 Speaker 1: and I leave it's in the Clinton tapes as well, 435 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:04,960 Speaker 1: but there was this thing about how they had provided 436 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:08,520 Speaker 1: aerial footage of the massacres that were being that were 437 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:13,120 Speaker 1: being enacted in places like Pittugal and Vannique where, oh 438 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:19,080 Speaker 1: my god, depare military serve forces did some horrid, horrifying 439 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:24,880 Speaker 1: acts of like violence and torture against the civilians. UM. 440 00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:28,680 Speaker 1: And they had you know, showed it to the Clintons, 441 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:31,560 Speaker 1: and they showed it to the French and the English, 442 00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:37,240 Speaker 1: and they did nothing. You know, they knew that a 443 00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:41,920 Speaker 1: genocide was unfolding. UM. And the Dayton Peace Agreement wasn't 444 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:49,600 Speaker 1: signed until so the international UM community I think as 445 00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 1: just as much of a responsibility in the you know, 446 00:29:56,040 --> 00:30:00,280 Speaker 1: the genocide of the Bosniaks as Serbia does, because stay 447 00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:02,560 Speaker 1: sat there and they watched when they had all the 448 00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:05,560 Speaker 1: power to stop it. They always had the power to 449 00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:07,400 Speaker 1: stop it. They had the power to stop it before 450 00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:11,400 Speaker 1: it even before even one person got killed, um and 451 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:16,440 Speaker 1: and two they it's not even that they just watched, 452 00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:21,920 Speaker 1: it's that they purposely left the Muslims defenseless because Serbia 453 00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:27,360 Speaker 1: had all the Yugoslav army, all the weapons, all the 454 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:29,920 Speaker 1: you know, everything, all the tools that they needed to 455 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:32,760 Speaker 1: commit j others side. They already had it, all the 456 00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:38,640 Speaker 1: arsenal everything, um And you do waslav army was like 457 00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:40,680 Speaker 1: the most powerful in the region at the time, and 458 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:45,920 Speaker 1: I think the fourth, third, third or fourth most powerful 459 00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:51,520 Speaker 1: in like the Europe Turkey areas, so we you know, 460 00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:56,240 Speaker 1: quite a powerful army. And there was Bosnia which had 461 00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:01,200 Speaker 1: no weapons, no military uh um. You know, you see 462 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:06,840 Speaker 1: these pictures of like civilians fighting against you know, tanks 463 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:11,840 Speaker 1: and mortar shells and snipers, and it's like these you 464 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:15,720 Speaker 1: know youths basically and like converse and jeans and like 465 00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:20,960 Speaker 1: an army jacket playing soldier because that's all we had, 466 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:24,440 Speaker 1: you know, we had the homemade weapons, we had um, 467 00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:29,360 Speaker 1: you know, how to make your own bomb books kind 468 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:33,040 Speaker 1: of thing, and trying to basically descend ourselves with anything 469 00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:38,960 Speaker 1: that we could. Um. They specifically did not lift the 470 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:43,640 Speaker 1: arms embargo, knowing that they were leaving us defenseless. Like 471 00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:47,200 Speaker 1: they just knew. There was no way. There's no doubt 472 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:50,880 Speaker 1: on everything that we have read about the international community response, 473 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:57,960 Speaker 1: everything that Clinton metedand John mayor major major um not 474 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:02,120 Speaker 1: mayor major have that you know about it during that 475 00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:06,600 Speaker 1: period shows us that they absolutely knew that we were defenseless, 476 00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:09,600 Speaker 1: you know. And this wasn't you know a lot of 477 00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:12,720 Speaker 1: people say I didn't know about the Bosnian genocide, but 478 00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:18,200 Speaker 1: it was discussed, you know, I've looked at the archived footage. UM, 479 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:20,840 Speaker 1: it was talked about it on television, it was brought 480 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:23,920 Speaker 1: up in parliament and incentive that was people at the 481 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:28,440 Speaker 1: time who were like, why are we leaving the Bosnians defenseless? 482 00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:32,520 Speaker 1: Why are we you know, not helping them, Why are 483 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:34,760 Speaker 1: we allowing them to be allowed into slaughter? This is 484 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:38,120 Speaker 1: genocide blah blah blah. So even as early as there 485 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:41,200 Speaker 1: was still people who knew about this stuff. We're telling 486 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:45,360 Speaker 1: the leaders, but nothing. Yeah, I think I think like 487 00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:47,160 Speaker 1: that part also, like it's it's not just that like 488 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:50,200 Speaker 1: they did nothing, like they like they did worse than 489 00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:54,040 Speaker 1: do nothing, like Miterians actively cheering it on, Like you know, 490 00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:57,680 Speaker 1: the arms in Bargo is just like the arms in Bargo. 491 00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:02,120 Speaker 1: If you're applying in arms in Bargo on a conflict 492 00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:04,560 Speaker 1: where one people one side has tanks and the other 493 00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:08,080 Speaker 1: side has like molotovs, like you are actively supporting one 494 00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:10,360 Speaker 1: of the sides. And I think that like that just 495 00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:15,280 Speaker 1: like is completely lost in how like almost everyone seems 496 00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:19,120 Speaker 1: to talk about this now because there's like, you know, 497 00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:21,680 Speaker 1: because because when you sort of get like interventions later, 498 00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:24,480 Speaker 1: like people are like, oh, look, the wester was like 499 00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:26,800 Speaker 1: planning to intervene here the whole time, and it's like no, 500 00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:32,200 Speaker 1: like they were literally cheering, was cheering. Like it's like 501 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:36,640 Speaker 1: it's so frustrating because you know, we you take what 502 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:40,200 Speaker 1: we know about. And here's the thing. I know that 503 00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:46,000 Speaker 1: Islamophobia escalated after nine eleven, but is Islamophobia has existed 504 00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:49,160 Speaker 1: for a very long time. And I think talked to 505 00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:53,080 Speaker 1: the black Muslims of America, they will tell you more, 506 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:55,120 Speaker 1: you know, better than than I could ever tell you 507 00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:58,160 Speaker 1: about the history of Islamophobia in in the United States. 508 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:01,160 Speaker 1: So it's a loam of phobia was always an aspect 509 00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:05,640 Speaker 1: of life. And in Europe, Islamophobia just like anti Semitism. 510 00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:11,440 Speaker 1: I mean, it is like the staple of European cultural cuisine. 511 00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:14,680 Speaker 1: So to say it's like it's like, yeah, it's like 512 00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:16,480 Speaker 1: there's there's a there's a there's they have. They have 513 00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:18,200 Speaker 1: like they have like the like the the tri force 514 00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:23,080 Speaker 1: of Europeans, of European civilization is anti Semitism, Islamophobia and 515 00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:29,080 Speaker 1: hating the Roma are just like how for the force. 516 00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:32,440 Speaker 1: And so I think the sort of thing about the 517 00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:37,840 Speaker 1: explicitness of European leadership, especially at the time in in 518 00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:43,320 Speaker 1: you know, effectively ensuring that we were killed off because 519 00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:49,560 Speaker 1: in Muslim country in Europe could not exist, and that's 520 00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:52,080 Speaker 1: the thing that they said, literally set a Muslim country 521 00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:57,960 Speaker 1: in Europe cannot exist. Like the fact that that was 522 00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:01,759 Speaker 1: so open and brazen like kind of takes me back. 523 00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:06,960 Speaker 1: But it really like tells you how much is Lamophobia informed. 524 00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:10,239 Speaker 1: I think the international community responds on this, and it's 525 00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:13,440 Speaker 1: so interesting to me. Now I think I've seen it 526 00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:15,800 Speaker 1: over the past, I would say, especially five years, the 527 00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:20,080 Speaker 1: sort of leftist genocide and I sort of leftist, anti 528 00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:25,279 Speaker 1: imperialist kind of defense of Miloshevich and oh they were 529 00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:27,399 Speaker 1: the you know, the Serbs were the actual victims blah 530 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:30,640 Speaker 1: blah blah and NATO blah blah blah, Western intervention. And 531 00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:32,919 Speaker 1: I'm just like, oh, my god, read a book, read 532 00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:36,480 Speaker 1: an article from that, read their actual quotes. There's no 533 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:41,640 Speaker 1: way that you can actually convince me that Europe, fortress Europe, 534 00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:45,480 Speaker 1: and the United States of America would do anything that 535 00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:57,880 Speaker 1: would benefit you know, the Muslim What's this? What was 536 00:35:58,000 --> 00:35:59,840 Speaker 1: one of the things. I think it's really interesting to 537 00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:02,399 Speaker 1: me about some way that the sort of like left 538 00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:05,600 Speaker 1: genocidees dialism works, like it always seems to be reginus lomophobia, 539 00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:08,680 Speaker 1: like and I remember started seeing this with Bosnia to 540 00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:11,040 Speaker 1: where they're like, oh, yeah, well it's it's it's because 541 00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:13,000 Speaker 1: what's okay. They have two things. One it's like, well, 542 00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:15,080 Speaker 1: the Bossians were Nazis been the second one was like, 543 00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:17,640 Speaker 1: oh well the boss the Bossians were like allto hottists. 544 00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:19,600 Speaker 1: And it's like like it's the exact same thing you 545 00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:21,960 Speaker 1: see with China, and it's like, oh, it's because all 546 00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:26,480 Speaker 1: the weakers are like Selafiji hottest iss c I A. 547 00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:32,919 Speaker 1: And it's like no, yeah, I mean it's it's it's 548 00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:35,440 Speaker 1: honestly laughable at this point. It really is. And it 549 00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:38,880 Speaker 1: also just you know, obviously I'm a leftist. You know, 550 00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:42,160 Speaker 1: I'm gonna cheer the left on to an extent, but 551 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:45,360 Speaker 1: that is my red line. The genocide anialism really is 552 00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:48,360 Speaker 1: my red line. And the reason it's it's you know, 553 00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:51,080 Speaker 1: my red line isn't just because I'm a genocide survivor, 554 00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:55,040 Speaker 1: but because it's like, oh, for God's sake, the data, 555 00:36:55,120 --> 00:37:03,839 Speaker 1: the statistics, the research, the forensic the analysis, the specific quotes, videos, articles, uh, 556 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:06,680 Speaker 1: you know, all of those things exist and are out there, 557 00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:08,600 Speaker 1: and all you have to do is actually do your 558 00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:10,920 Speaker 1: research and you will find out that actually know you're 559 00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:13,560 Speaker 1: in the wrong. And the other thing is what you 560 00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:16,480 Speaker 1: just said about the sort of thing of painting you know, 561 00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:19,320 Speaker 1: the Muslims is like the Nazis and the you know, 562 00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:23,759 Speaker 1: the extremists. Um, you know, the thing about like the 563 00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:27,479 Speaker 1: Bazian and Muslims is like, we don't hide the fact 564 00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:30,880 Speaker 1: that there were people of our community that participated in 565 00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:36,440 Speaker 1: Nazi crimes. There isn't this goal of concealing those crimes, 566 00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:41,319 Speaker 1: of minimizing the crimes or pretending that they were right. Um, 567 00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:44,240 Speaker 1: there is I'm sure a French group of people who 568 00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:47,000 Speaker 1: defend these kinds of people, like there is a French 569 00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:51,000 Speaker 1: when I'm talking about the collective sort of Bosnian um, 570 00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:54,320 Speaker 1: you know, state level response as well as like an 571 00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:59,200 Speaker 1: individual response is that the you know, the the Nazi 572 00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:05,480 Speaker 1: division had like seventeen thousand Bosnian soldiers and there's millions 573 00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:09,120 Speaker 1: of Bosnians in the country. The vast majority ended up 574 00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:13,480 Speaker 1: joining the Partisans and stood against the Nazis. And the 575 00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:17,239 Speaker 1: thing is, you can't when it comes to Yugoslavia and 576 00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:20,000 Speaker 1: World War Two and the Holocaust, you can't just say 577 00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:23,440 Speaker 1: that the Bosnians were Nazi collaboration is because the thing is, 578 00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:26,480 Speaker 1: so are the Serbians, So are the Serbs, so are 579 00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:29,880 Speaker 1: the Croats. At that time, Let's be honest, who the 580 00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:34,480 Speaker 1: hell wasn't a Nazi collaborationist. Now this doesn't excuse it, 581 00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:38,800 Speaker 1: absolutely not, but what it does sort of show is 582 00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:43,200 Speaker 1: that that history, that period um in Yugoslav history is 583 00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:47,440 Speaker 1: really complicated because you know, you had the Gustia um. 584 00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:50,600 Speaker 1: And then you had the Chechniques. And then there's a 585 00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:53,600 Speaker 1: period where the Chechniks were against Ussia, right because like 586 00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:56,600 Speaker 1: used to show we're killing Serbs and robots and drews. 587 00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:59,360 Speaker 1: But then the Chechniques turned around and there are you know, 588 00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:02,919 Speaker 1: these Serb nationalists. They start killing the Jews and the Roma, 589 00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:05,680 Speaker 1: and then they start working with those shut to hand 590 00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:07,520 Speaker 1: down the Jews in the Roma, and then they start 591 00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:11,480 Speaker 1: working with them to stand against the you know, the 592 00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:17,960 Speaker 1: Tito's Partisans. Um. Meanwhile, you know, Tito's Partisans had a 593 00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:28,320 Speaker 1: multi ethnic coalition, like and we're talking about Serbs, Bosnians, Roma, Jews, Croats, Albanians, 594 00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:32,400 Speaker 1: you know, all sorts of people who were very like, 595 00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:37,000 Speaker 1: you know, anti Nazism. So you know, we're we're gonna 596 00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:40,799 Speaker 1: we're gonna win, We're gonna rebuild our our country, We're gonna, 597 00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:44,880 Speaker 1: you know, make this beautiful sort of you know, multi 598 00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:47,680 Speaker 1: ethnic kind of state, which they did, which is amazing. 599 00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:50,399 Speaker 1: But yeah, but it is a complicated sort of piece 600 00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:52,480 Speaker 1: of history. So you can't really say, oh, yes, they're 601 00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:56,440 Speaker 1: the Nazi collaborationists because, um, at some point or not, 602 00:39:56,760 --> 00:40:01,560 Speaker 1: everybody was and at some point or not everybody was also. Yeah, yeah, 603 00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:03,480 Speaker 1: it's like like it's when when when you when you 604 00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:08,520 Speaker 1: start getting into like it becomes this like you know, 605 00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:13,800 Speaker 1: it becomes a way of just getting people to I 606 00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:15,960 Speaker 1: don't know how to describe it, like it you know, 607 00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:23,800 Speaker 1: when when when it starts being like this specific ethnic 608 00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:27,640 Speaker 1: group as a whole is responsible for all of these crimes. 609 00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:30,560 Speaker 1: Just like no, they're not like that's that's not that's 610 00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:33,200 Speaker 1: not how this works. Like it's not like like like 611 00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:35,440 Speaker 1: they're like there are like they're yeah, there's gonna be 612 00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:37,400 Speaker 1: people in the ethnic group who did things that were awful. 613 00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:40,200 Speaker 1: There's also going to be people, especially especially in a 614 00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:42,080 Speaker 1: citation like this, there's there's a lot like a lot 615 00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:46,919 Speaker 1: of probably more people who fought them. Yeah, and that like, yeah, 616 00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:50,200 Speaker 1: that's such an interesting statement because I'm going to compare 617 00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:53,080 Speaker 1: to the bossy and response after the genocide, which has 618 00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:58,160 Speaker 1: consistently been no, we don't believe that every single service bad, 619 00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:01,400 Speaker 1: and we were only talked about those that took place, 620 00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:04,799 Speaker 1: took part in these crimes and those that concealed them. 621 00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:09,600 Speaker 1: And that has always been the collective and state level 622 00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:13,480 Speaker 1: response of all Bosans. Now you have to think about 623 00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:20,680 Speaker 1: I have a friend who's who who's nine members of 624 00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:27,759 Speaker 1: her family were killed in Stubriniza in July. That's an 625 00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:32,719 Speaker 1: absorbinate number of people. These were women, children, and men 626 00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:36,959 Speaker 1: and elderly. There was no discrimination when it Kimp comes 627 00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:40,759 Speaker 1: to her. I'm sat with her as she's read all 628 00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:43,840 Speaker 1: the names of her you know, killed the family members. 629 00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:46,560 Speaker 1: That woman, with all the pain that she survived with 630 00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:50,440 Speaker 1: being there as a young girl in the midst of genocide, 631 00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:54,160 Speaker 1: in the midst of these her horrifying crimes, has never 632 00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:58,280 Speaker 1: once publicly or privately to me said, yes, old serbs 633 00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:00,600 Speaker 1: are the same. Yes, all of them are work aminals. Yes, 634 00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:03,840 Speaker 1: all of them hate us, absolutely not. And the thing is, 635 00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:07,320 Speaker 1: I think about myself as well, Like, you know, my 636 00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:11,120 Speaker 1: earliest childhood memories me being shot at by a sniper, 637 00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:15,200 Speaker 1: knowing my father was in a concentration camp, knowing that 638 00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:18,640 Speaker 1: my grandmother was just killed by a bomb. Um knowing that, 639 00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:22,000 Speaker 1: you know, my biological dad was dying in a hospital 640 00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:24,839 Speaker 1: from an attack, and my mother could also be killed 641 00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:26,839 Speaker 1: because she was pregnant with my brother at the time. 642 00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:30,600 Speaker 1: And so these are my earliest childhood memories. Um, they're 643 00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:35,240 Speaker 1: not very happy memories. And I know why those things happened. 644 00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:37,319 Speaker 1: You know, I know why I was being shot at 645 00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:39,280 Speaker 1: by a sniper, and it was because I was bossy, 646 00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:41,919 Speaker 1: and it it was because I was Muslin, and because 647 00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:43,880 Speaker 1: I was seen as the enemy, even though I was 648 00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:46,520 Speaker 1: you know, a little kid at you know, six seven 649 00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:49,600 Speaker 1: years old, um and absolutely not a threat to anyone, 650 00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:52,720 Speaker 1: and nobody should have been shooting at me. They did. Anyway, 651 00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:57,120 Speaker 1: Even though that happened, I never had that feeling of 652 00:42:57,719 --> 00:43:00,279 Speaker 1: all serbs are awful, All serbs are you know, I'm 653 00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:02,759 Speaker 1: going to paint them all with a brush. But a 654 00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:05,560 Speaker 1: lot of them, unfortunately, especially on the you know, the 655 00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:10,279 Speaker 1: the ultra nationalists that continue to not just the night 656 00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:14,320 Speaker 1: the geniside, but also glorified and celebrate it. They do 657 00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:18,880 Speaker 1: paint everyone with the same brush, you know. And and 658 00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:21,479 Speaker 1: the worst thing, the funniest thing, is that they paint 659 00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:24,520 Speaker 1: themselves with the same brush. You know. They they think 660 00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:28,480 Speaker 1: that they get to speak for every single serve person um. 661 00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:32,800 Speaker 1: And that's the tragic path. Like I'm not, I'm not. 662 00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:36,120 Speaker 1: I get accused of like constantly talking to about serves 663 00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:39,040 Speaker 1: and I'm like, I absolutely am not. I'm talking about 664 00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:41,880 Speaker 1: the nationalists, And I will call out all the nationalists, 665 00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:47,080 Speaker 1: whether they're bausi in Serpient, Croatian, American, whatever, But we're 666 00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:50,600 Speaker 1: talking about you know, what you're doing to me and 667 00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:54,759 Speaker 1: your response to my criticism of nationalism is actually the 668 00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:57,759 Speaker 1: thing that's ruining your reputation. Yeah, it's it's the it's 669 00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:00,040 Speaker 1: that it's that's the nationalist camp. It it's it's you 670 00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:02,319 Speaker 1: have you have to conflate all of the individual people, 671 00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:04,319 Speaker 1: the ethnic group, and the state. They all they all 672 00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:05,480 Speaker 1: have to be this like, you know, this must be 673 00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:08,320 Speaker 1: this organic totality, and it's not true. It's just not. 674 00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:10,360 Speaker 1: But that's you know, that's that's that's the sort of 675 00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:13,920 Speaker 1: it's it's the motus apperanda behind their entire ideology, and 676 00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:17,600 Speaker 1: it's what they deploy, you know, it's what they deploy 677 00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:19,480 Speaker 1: when the genocides, is what they deploy when they have 678 00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:25,840 Speaker 1: to sort of like you know, sort of promoted openly 679 00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:30,239 Speaker 1: or less openly afterwards. Yeah, it's like that justification, it's 680 00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:35,279 Speaker 1: how they justify it. Yeah, And like we all know 681 00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:40,680 Speaker 1: about the ten stages of genocide. But my colleague um, 682 00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:50,080 Speaker 1: who's brilliant actually has often talked about that the nihilism 683 00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:54,360 Speaker 1: is not really the final stage of genocide. It is 684 00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:59,000 Speaker 1: in fact triumphalism um. And that's what we're actually seeing 685 00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:03,200 Speaker 1: in Bosnia. You know, we're not I get genocide denialism 686 00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:07,400 Speaker 1: from American leftists and like British leftists who are on 687 00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:13,759 Speaker 1: a certain spectrum. And obviously I don't get genocide denialism 688 00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:18,279 Speaker 1: from et No nationalists sorbs. What I get from them 689 00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:24,359 Speaker 1: actually is very openly celebrating and threatening another genocide. They 690 00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:28,000 Speaker 1: are not in my mentions saying oh there was no genocide, 691 00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:31,920 Speaker 1: uh Darren, my mentions saying no one shops a Steba 692 00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:34,720 Speaker 1: and so, which is basically a slogan that says knife 693 00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:39,239 Speaker 1: wire serbonida and it's like basically a threat that another 694 00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:42,040 Speaker 1: Serebani that will occur. They're in my mentions, in my 695 00:45:42,239 --> 00:45:45,200 Speaker 1: emails and in my d M s sending me threats 696 00:45:45,239 --> 00:45:47,480 Speaker 1: about how they can't wait till I'm put in a 697 00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:50,920 Speaker 1: rape camp again, How they can't wait untill they kill 698 00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:54,040 Speaker 1: my family, until sorry ever gets bombed again, and how 699 00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:57,640 Speaker 1: you know we're they're gonna finish the job. How Ram 700 00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:00,840 Speaker 1: is a hero because he killed all those you know, 701 00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:05,360 Speaker 1: people in Serbonizza and sugared Um kata juch is a 702 00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:07,600 Speaker 1: hero because he's the same Milosha, which is a hero 703 00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:11,640 Speaker 1: because he believes in a greater Serbian. These people don't 704 00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:15,719 Speaker 1: hide it um and that's the thing. So it's it's 705 00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:19,440 Speaker 1: very like just today, you know, the first thing in 706 00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:22,040 Speaker 1: the morning, I opened my Twitter and the first thing 707 00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:27,880 Speaker 1: that I see is a Bossian activist arrested for protesting 708 00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:31,240 Speaker 1: the dot com La Ditch mural which the Serbian police 709 00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:38,200 Speaker 1: were guarding. They were guarding a mural get like a 710 00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:42,440 Speaker 1: mural of a war criminal who committed genocide, who who 711 00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:47,799 Speaker 1: everybody knows committed genocide, a mural glorifying him. They were 712 00:46:48,160 --> 00:46:52,040 Speaker 1: got the police were guarding, you know, the mural and 713 00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:56,759 Speaker 1: inflicting damage on innocent civilians who were there too, you know, 714 00:46:56,880 --> 00:46:59,680 Speaker 1: protest against the mural. And so I think that really 715 00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:05,040 Speaker 1: tells too so much the issue in the Balkans. This 716 00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:07,759 Speaker 1: has when it could happen here. Join us tomorrow for 717 00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:10,360 Speaker 1: part two of this interview, in which we discuss the 718 00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:13,680 Speaker 1: dangers of what's currently happening in Bosnia. In the meantime, 719 00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:17,840 Speaker 1: find us on Twitter It Happened here pod, and you 720 00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:20,879 Speaker 1: can find us on Twitter and Instagram for the rest 721 00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:27,879 Speaker 1: of our shows at cool zone Medio. It could Happen 722 00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:30,239 Speaker 1: Here is a production of cool zone Media. Or more 723 00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:33,040 Speaker 1: podcasts from cool zone Media. Visit our website cool zone 724 00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:34,920 Speaker 1: media dot com or check us out on the I 725 00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:38,279 Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 726 00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:40,960 Speaker 1: You can find sources for it could Happen Here, updated 727 00:47:41,080 --> 00:47:44,520 Speaker 1: monthly at cool zone Media dot com slash sources. Thanks 728 00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:45,040 Speaker 1: for listening.