1 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:08,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to It Could Happen here, a podcast about things 2 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:12,080 Speaker 1: falling apart um and and some other stuff from time 3 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:16,239 Speaker 1: to time. I'm Robert Evans UM and today we are 4 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:21,040 Speaker 1: going to chat once again with Romeo Kokoatski. Um. Romeo, 5 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:25,280 Speaker 1: you are a Ukrainian journalist and an anarchist. We chatted 6 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:31,160 Speaker 1: with you right before the Russian expanded invasion of Ukraine. UM, 7 00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:33,920 Speaker 1: and now we're we're talking with you again now that 8 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:38,159 Speaker 1: the war has entered UM certainly a different phase as 9 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:40,800 Speaker 1: as Russian troops pull out of the north of the country, 10 00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:44,839 Speaker 1: pull out from around Kiev and focus their remaining on 11 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 1: blowed up forces to the fight around the dawn Bass. Um. 12 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 1: How are you doing, Romeo? Yeah, thanks for having me 13 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:58,960 Speaker 1: on UM. It's been it's been tough. We'll get into 14 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:03,040 Speaker 1: this a little later on. But obviously learning that Um, 15 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:06,960 Speaker 1: a town not far from your own as undergone a 16 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 1: genocide is not the easiest thing to live through. Yeah, 17 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 1: and knowing that that is not even the worst of 18 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:17,280 Speaker 1: the atrocities that we're going to discover in the coming 19 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:20,839 Speaker 1: weeks and months is is put the put the mental strain. 20 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:24,479 Speaker 1: Let me tell you, Yeah, I don't think I think thankfully. 21 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:29,039 Speaker 1: Very few people understand the experience of learning that a 22 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 1: genocide has occurred next door essentially, um. And yeah, what 23 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:36,480 Speaker 1: you wanted to talk about specifically, obviously, when when we 24 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:38,480 Speaker 1: talk about the act of genocide, we're talking about the 25 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:42,959 Speaker 1: massacre in Bucca UM. An exact count butcha, sorry, an 26 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:46,760 Speaker 1: exact death count is not available right now. But I 27 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:51,279 Speaker 1: think at least two civilians killed is the last number 28 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 1: I've gotten. Yeah, that's the last, like confirmed number. But 29 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:58,400 Speaker 1: obviously a lot of these people UM have been tossed 30 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:02,600 Speaker 1: into mass graves. They're lying around in various residencies. It's 31 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 1: it's gonna, it's gonna be a long time before, yeah, 32 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:08,840 Speaker 1: able to to come to any kind of accurate account 33 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:14,240 Speaker 1: of how many residents were killed. Yeah, And for a 34 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 1: brief overview of just kind of like what has been 35 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:21,400 Speaker 1: seen in the executions there. We have civilians often hands 36 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:26,400 Speaker 1: tied behind their backs, so they were clearly restrained, executed 37 00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:29,000 Speaker 1: after having been restrained. Some of them were just left 38 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:31,800 Speaker 1: in the streets, some of them dumped into mass graves. 39 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:36,080 Speaker 1: UH Satellite imagery from before the town was liberated by 40 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:39,240 Speaker 1: Ukrainian forces shows corpses lying in the street in the 41 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:42,920 Speaker 1: same position they were discovered in when the Ukrainian military 42 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:47,919 Speaker 1: moved in, which is as solid open source confirmation of 43 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 1: the genocide as you're going to get with any kind 44 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:55,960 Speaker 1: of genocide. Um. So that's that's the situation. Obviously, the 45 00:02:56,160 --> 00:03:00,800 Speaker 1: usual crew of bad actors and u USHI defenders have 46 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:05,240 Speaker 1: kind of slid into the most common allegation I'm seeing 47 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 1: at least online as people saying it must have been 48 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 1: as Off battalion that did it, even though their four 49 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 1: hundred and forty miles away um encircled by the Russian army. Um. Yeah, yeah, 50 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:18,560 Speaker 1: but you know it's the it's the you're seeing like 51 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 1: a lot of kind of bad open source responses to 52 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:24,600 Speaker 1: with people being like, well, why would the bodies if 53 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 1: you look at the satellite imagery, why are the body 54 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:30,079 Speaker 1: so evenly spaced, which is just like they're not. It's 55 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:33,520 Speaker 1: it's it's just like people people recognizing that if you 56 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 1: like circle ship on a grainy image and and tweet 57 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 1: about how it's suspicious, you'll provide enough plausible deniability for 58 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:42,720 Speaker 1: other people to to doubt a genocide. You know, it's 59 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 1: it's it's the same ship we saw with Syria. There 60 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:50,600 Speaker 1: was some disgusting denial where someone was claiming that they 61 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 1: could see bodies being carted away um by the Ukrainians 62 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 1: for you know, investigation and reburial. Um, that the corpses 63 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:02,119 Speaker 1: were quote unquote moving. You can see you can see 64 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 1: this guy's hand move. Yeah, you're looking at dead bodies. 65 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 1: Buggy there. And by the way, when you move dead bodies, 66 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 1: they move like pieces of the shock. It's you're driving 67 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:16,960 Speaker 1: over a street that has been churned over by tank 68 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 1: treads and you're you're transporting human corpses. Those corpses are 69 00:04:21,760 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 1: gonna get jostled around. Yeah, it's uh, definitely. I don't know. 70 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:29,440 Speaker 1: You know, I don't want to be labor on this 71 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:31,120 Speaker 1: too much because I think we've talked a lot about 72 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 1: how this this distant foe works. I think what you 73 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:36,000 Speaker 1: came on specifically to talk about and what's really worth 74 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:42,000 Speaker 1: getting into in some detail, is, um, this manifesto that 75 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:44,400 Speaker 1: was published on r i A, which is a large 76 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 1: Russian government controlled UH news agency. Um, it's this I 77 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 1: don't know how manifesto. It's fascist. You can find it 78 00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 1: if you if you just google uh r i A 79 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 1: published is Russian fascist manifesto The New Voice of Ukraine 80 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:06,560 Speaker 1: has a translation of it up um if you want 81 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:10,479 Speaker 1: to read this thing, but it's it's pretty pretty striking, 82 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:15,919 Speaker 1: um and um. The kind of focus of this is 83 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:24,000 Speaker 1: on justifying the denazification campaign um and it opens one 84 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 1: of the opening lines is when the theory that people 85 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:29,559 Speaker 1: are good the government is bad no longer holds true. 86 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:33,040 Speaker 1: Admitting this fact is the basis of the Denazification party 87 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 1: all of its associated measures, and the fact itself is 88 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:38,600 Speaker 1: the subject matter of the policy. And that this came 89 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:41,680 Speaker 1: out within a day or two of the discovering of 90 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 1: the elements of genocide and and um, which is yeah, 91 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 1: is pretty predominant, I would say, like pretty noteworthy. Yeah. 92 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 1: So I had to translate this and let me tell 93 00:05:57,520 --> 00:06:01,360 Speaker 1: you it took um a pretty big, pretty big tone 94 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 1: in my sanity for a couple of days here um. 95 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 1: And I'm gonna be honest as Ukrainian reading this, this 96 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:13,320 Speaker 1: was If you have ever I don't know if some 97 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 1: of your listeners may have like been at protests UM 98 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:21,120 Speaker 1: counter protests against UM fascist or far right demonstrators where 99 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 1: they're chanting that they will murder you. This is exactly 100 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:25,840 Speaker 1: how I felt. This is this is nothing less than 101 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 1: someone reaching through the screen and telling me that they 102 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:33,039 Speaker 1: want to kill me and everyone I love personally, Um, 103 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 1: because I am, because I want their independence. So there's 104 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:43,160 Speaker 1: this the kind of theme of this article. The tern 105 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:47,839 Speaker 1: that they use most often is denossification, and I think 106 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:53,720 Speaker 1: it really um, it is incredibly vital to explain just 107 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:59,040 Speaker 1: what this denotification means, because normally, like you and I, Robert, 108 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 1: I think we both call our else anti fascists and 109 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:06,719 Speaker 1: we are pretty anti Nazi. Um that I think that's 110 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 1: a that's a pretty mainstream position to do not like 111 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:13,680 Speaker 1: Nazis and be anti Nazi. So the Russians use this 112 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:17,520 Speaker 1: term denazification to someone that has no context, no idea 113 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 1: of what it refers to beyond the obvious meaning. Get 114 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:24,679 Speaker 1: rid of Nazis sounds like something even laudable. The problem 115 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 1: is what the Russians mean by Nazis is not what 116 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 1: you and I or any other normal, same rational human 117 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 1: being would consider a Nazi. This article does not justify uh, 118 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:41,040 Speaker 1: it's it's thesis that Ukrainians are Nazis at all. In fact, um, 119 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:45,880 Speaker 1: there are there is a whole series of paragraphs um 120 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:50,800 Speaker 1: that states that Ukraine does not meet like any critidia 121 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 1: of being Nazi. UM too. To quote a bit from 122 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 1: this um, as horrible as it is, UM, it reads, 123 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:01,760 Speaker 1: there isn't, after all, a single important Nazi party, no fewer, 124 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 1: no fully racist laws, only their curl tailed variance in 125 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:08,600 Speaker 1: the form of oppressions against forms language. As a result, 126 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 1: there's no opposition in resistance to the regime. A particular 127 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 1: feature of Nazified Ukraine is it's a morphosis eminent and 128 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 1: ambivalentness which allows for the masking of Nazism as a 129 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 1: desire to move towards a quote unquote independent and quote 130 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 1: unquote European, uh Western and pro American path of development, 131 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 1: in reality towards degradation, while insisting that quote unquote Ukraine 132 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 1: doesn't have any Nazism, only private and singular excesses. So 133 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:43,560 Speaker 1: the micle itself an it's that Ukraine is not Nazi 134 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:48,040 Speaker 1: in any way that we would recognize the term. Yeah, 135 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:52,200 Speaker 1: and it's it's basically saying that like it's Nazi, it's not. 136 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:57,960 Speaker 1: There's no fewer and there's no race like racialist laws. UM. 137 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:00,319 Speaker 1: But the thing that makes it a Nazi is want 138 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:03,600 Speaker 1: in closer union with Europe as opposed to Russia. UM. 139 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:05,840 Speaker 1: And of course it it notes like the so called 140 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:09,360 Speaker 1: laws against the Russian language, which I'm not aware of 141 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:12,480 Speaker 1: anything happening. I think what they're referring to is like 142 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:17,040 Speaker 1: attempts to encourage the Ukrainian language in Ukraine. Yeah, there 143 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:21,080 Speaker 1: are no laws or sanctions language in Ukraine. There never 144 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:23,520 Speaker 1: have been. And in fact, when I was there, one 145 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:26,120 Speaker 1: of the difficulties I had with my interpreter is he 146 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 1: he only spoke Ukrainian. And so you can, obviously you 147 00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:33,439 Speaker 1: can speak with people who speak Russian if you speak Ukrainian, 148 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:37,200 Speaker 1: but it's a little bit like confusing, and most people 149 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:40,760 Speaker 1: we were talking to spoke Russian natively. Like it's the 150 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:44,080 Speaker 1: the idea that it's somehow like been that the Russian 151 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:49,040 Speaker 1: language has been somehow like attacked in Ukraine. Um feels 152 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 1: very silly as someone who like repeatedly encountered the Russian 153 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 1: language while in Ukraine. Yeah, it's it's it's simply propaganda, um. 154 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:05,960 Speaker 1: And the fact is that the Russians define Ukrainian Nazism 155 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:10,160 Speaker 1: not as having Nazi values or a Nazi party or 156 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 1: anything that we would associate with with Nazism, but in 157 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:17,400 Speaker 1: fact simply the simply that Ukraine wants to be independent 158 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:21,040 Speaker 1: of Russia. That in itself is proof positive to the 159 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 1: Russians of our Nazism and nothing else. So when when 160 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:31,960 Speaker 1: people hear this word denossification, what they don't mean getting 161 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 1: rid of like far right elements in Ukraine. No, they 162 00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 1: mean being anti Russian or being or simply wanting to 163 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 1: be separate from Russia. Is itself a far right position 164 00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 1: in Russia's eyes, and that is enough to call for our, 165 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:53,840 Speaker 1: um pretty much complete extermination. Yeah, and you know, to 166 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:56,320 Speaker 1: kind of go into this article a little more. One 167 00:10:56,400 --> 00:11:00,040 Speaker 1: of the things that I find m interesting about it 168 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:03,320 Speaker 1: is this line here, The fact that the Ukrainian electorate 169 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:06,640 Speaker 1: shows Poroshenko's piece Porshenko is the president before Zelinski and 170 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 1: Zelinski's piece should not be misled. Um, I think they 171 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:13,680 Speaker 1: probably meant misread. Maybe Ukrainians are quite satisfied with the 172 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:16,640 Speaker 1: shortest path to piece through blitzkrieg, which the last two 173 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:20,120 Speaker 1: Ukrainian presidents transparently hinted at when they were elected. I 174 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:24,480 Speaker 1: how I don't understand how anything Ukraine has done could 175 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:29,240 Speaker 1: be considered a blitzkrieg um since they never invaded Russian 176 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 1: territory and in fact lost territory to Russia in two 177 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:36,400 Speaker 1: thousand and fourteen. Um, that's a weird definition of a blitzkrieg. 178 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:38,120 Speaker 1: I'm wondering if you can shed some light on what 179 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:40,200 Speaker 1: they might even mean on that, or is it just 180 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:48,160 Speaker 1: just complete fallacy. What they mean is basically that Ukraine 181 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 1: in so within Russian probably and you have to understand, 182 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 1: we're talking about a completely separate universe, a different reality. 183 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:01,200 Speaker 1: So the way every every single aspect of what you 184 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:03,960 Speaker 1: and I know does does not apply, like they don't 185 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:08,440 Speaker 1: live in our consensus whatsoever. So what they mean is 186 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:13,040 Speaker 1: that Ukraine blitz creaked the elimination of Russian speakers and 187 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 1: um pro Russian culture and pro Russian sentiments in Ukraine 188 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:21,599 Speaker 1: during the year of my don Um in Russia's in 189 00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 1: Russia's reality, Ukraine carried out of genocide against these people 190 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:30,960 Speaker 1: in Ukraine in everywhere except the puppet authorities of the 191 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:37,320 Speaker 1: Luhanskan Danetsk People's republics. So basically Ukraine carried out this 192 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:41,000 Speaker 1: blitz creed. The reason Ukraine is so quote unquote nazified 193 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:47,199 Speaker 1: is because in the this Russian alternative reality, Ukraine genocide 194 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:49,599 Speaker 1: at all of the Russians, all the ethnic Russians, the 195 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:53,199 Speaker 1: writing speakers and even with pro Russian sentiments. And this 196 00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:56,520 Speaker 1: is what they mean when they refer to this uh, 197 00:12:56,600 --> 00:13:02,240 Speaker 1: this blitz creed that they that well um Ukraine went through. 198 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:06,280 Speaker 1: They quickly killed everyone who was pro Us and now 199 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:11,000 Speaker 1: uh and now everyone else, everyone who has left is 200 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:14,960 Speaker 1: a Nazi um like the The latter part of this 201 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:17,680 Speaker 1: paragraph really makes that clear. They say it was this 202 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:21,880 Speaker 1: method of quote unquote appeasement of internal anti fascists through 203 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:24,439 Speaker 1: total terror that was used in Odessa, hark evening for 204 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 1: tost Mariable and other Russian cities. So not only are 205 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:31,560 Speaker 1: are these Ukrainian cities Russian, this quote unquote appeasement that 206 00:13:31,559 --> 00:13:35,000 Speaker 1: they're referring to is a sarcastic way of referring to 207 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:39,800 Speaker 1: their um supposed genocide of these people, of of Russian speakers, 208 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 1: of um ethnic Russians in Ukraine. Again, that is not 209 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:49,360 Speaker 1: only untrue, it's also ludicrous because everyone in Ukraine is 210 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:55,640 Speaker 1: has some Russian ancestry, because it's a mixed country. Everyone 211 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:58,839 Speaker 1: is everything, Like the entire Eastern European region is not 212 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:03,199 Speaker 1: some make enclave. It is in fact a melting pot 213 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:06,559 Speaker 1: um which the Soviet Union worked very hard to change. 214 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:09,160 Speaker 1: One of the things I kept encountering in f Difka, 215 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:12,480 Speaker 1: which was still under fire today and was under fire 216 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:14,960 Speaker 1: in two thousand fourteen, for an idea of like how 217 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:17,720 Speaker 1: long chunks of the country have been in Like now 218 00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:21,040 Speaker 1: it's spread all over Ukraine, but parts of Ukraine have 219 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:25,040 Speaker 1: been under continuous artillery fire for nearly a decade. UM. 220 00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 1: But I kept encountering these old ladies who had grown 221 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:30,720 Speaker 1: up in the Soviet Union, and we're saying, like, Um, 222 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 1: I don't understand why they're doing this. They they like 223 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:37,280 Speaker 1: I've always considered myself Russian, and and now this is happening, 224 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 1: like I don't understand it. I don't understand it. It It 225 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:52,360 Speaker 1: doesn't make any sense. And in terms of like the 226 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 1: denialism that we've been seeing lately. UM. One of the 227 00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 1: reasons I I argued for because we had a debate 228 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 1: in the UM in the editor's room at Envy when 229 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 1: we were UM, when we were looking at this piece, 230 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:07,160 Speaker 1: we had a debate over where whether we're going to 231 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:10,840 Speaker 1: translate end UM publish it, and I pushed really hard 232 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:14,560 Speaker 1: UM to do so because I think there is no 233 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 1: greater way to push back these UM claims of genocide 234 00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 1: denial that we we are seeing popping up um across 235 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:28,520 Speaker 1: various parts of UM of the Western laughter and the 236 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:32,280 Speaker 1: anti imperialist left or whatever you call it UM. And 237 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:35,280 Speaker 1: I think there's no better way to push back against 238 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:40,400 Speaker 1: the arguments than to present the Russians own words to them. Yeah, 239 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 1: like this is such an openly genocidal fascist peace um 240 00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 1: using pure the pure logic of of quite like of 241 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 1: just fascism. That is impossible. I think to really um 242 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:03,080 Speaker 1: say that they is like a fabrication or the like. 243 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:05,920 Speaker 1: The Russians aren't like this. Well, they're telling you in 244 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:09,720 Speaker 1: their own words, this is what they're like. Yeah, And 245 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:13,680 Speaker 1: I think the like putting focus on this isn't This 246 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:17,720 Speaker 1: wasn't written by you know, some um like far right 247 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:22,240 Speaker 1: extremists for some minor like online site that has like 248 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 1: an audience of two thousand, like Russian fascist whatever. No, 249 00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:29,040 Speaker 1: this was a major article published in one of the 250 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:35,800 Speaker 1: Russian main media outlets by a respected political scientist within Russia. Yeah. 251 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:39,720 Speaker 1: And that's that's the thing that I think really needs 252 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:43,120 Speaker 1: to be gotten across is the degree to which I 253 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 1: think there's a desire to believe that the Putin regime 254 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:51,240 Speaker 1: is like on its last legs and that most people 255 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 1: recognize how fucked up the political status quo is there, 256 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:02,640 Speaker 1: and that's support for the regime is like pretty minimal 257 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:07,720 Speaker 1: as a result. Um. And I I'm not I'm not 258 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:10,399 Speaker 1: seeing the evidence of that. And when I talked to 259 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 1: I just we just did an interview with the Russian 260 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:15,280 Speaker 1: anarchist who his attitude was very much that like, yeah, 261 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:19,600 Speaker 1: most people broadly by the propaganda. Um. It is not 262 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:24,320 Speaker 1: like the it's possible that's going to change over time, 263 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:28,159 Speaker 1: because again, the severe casualties Russia has taken have not 264 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:33,119 Speaker 1: really had a chance to totally filter out socially into Russia. 265 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:35,600 Speaker 1: I think people are still becoming aware of the scale 266 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 1: of losses, and it's going to take some time for 267 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:43,200 Speaker 1: that knowledge to to release circulate. UM. But I think 268 00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:47,080 Speaker 1: this article represents how a very large chunk of the 269 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:52,280 Speaker 1: Russian populace are are seeing what's going on in Ukraine. Um. 270 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:56,840 Speaker 1: And that's problematic for a number of reasons. For one thing, 271 00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:00,919 Speaker 1: with this kind of logic that we see in this article, 272 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:04,160 Speaker 1: there's not much you can't justify, right, Like, there's very 273 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 1: little that uh, if you if people believe what's being 274 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 1: said in this article, there's very little you couldn't do. 275 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:14,600 Speaker 1: There's very few weapons you couldn't deploy. Right. That's one 276 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:17,040 Speaker 1: of the arguments this is making is that you have 277 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 1: to exact soldiers who have been notified, Um, have to 278 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:26,639 Speaker 1: be wiped out completely. Um, there's there's no soldiers that 279 00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:30,600 Speaker 1: who have been notified. Anyone who has ever taken arms 280 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 1: against Russia and anyone who has ever supported anyone who 281 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:39,399 Speaker 1: has taken arms against Russia, which at the current moment 282 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:46,240 Speaker 1: is over of the Ukrainian population must and I quote 283 00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:51,199 Speaker 1: from this must be liquidated. Yeah, not not. Um. It 284 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:53,679 Speaker 1: makes an argument a little higher up that these people 285 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:56,640 Speaker 1: can't be re educated, so they can't even be sent 286 00:18:56,680 --> 00:19:00,080 Speaker 1: to camps two goologs. Um, they can't be made to 287 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:04,080 Speaker 1: do forced labor. They must be liquidated, eliminated. Uh. And 288 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:08,040 Speaker 1: this is nothing less than simply saying, well, we are 289 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:11,720 Speaker 1: going to have to kill the grand majority of Ukrainians. Yeah, 290 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:19,520 Speaker 1: and I don't I don't know what more like you 291 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:23,080 Speaker 1: can for the folks who are kind of on the 292 00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:29,760 Speaker 1: because there's there's this tendency I think within the chunks 293 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:33,200 Speaker 1: of the left that are not they haven't lost their minds, 294 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:35,679 Speaker 1: They're not they don't buy the Russian propaganda. They do 295 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:37,879 Speaker 1: see what's happening in Ukraine is terrible, they see the 296 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:41,480 Speaker 1: war is terrible, but they still have this attitude of, well, 297 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:44,080 Speaker 1: the best thing is to end it quickly, and like, 298 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:46,840 Speaker 1: you know, we should, we should push for some sort 299 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:50,400 Speaker 1: of negotiation. And first off, I'm saying, like, whatever the 300 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:54,480 Speaker 1: Ukraine as a country decides is acceptable to them in 301 00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:57,040 Speaker 1: terms of peace. I'm not going to argue against one 302 00:19:57,040 --> 00:20:00,960 Speaker 1: way or the other because that's not my place. But um, 303 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:05,840 Speaker 1: I don't I don't see how you can negotiate with 304 00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:09,639 Speaker 1: people who have this attitude towards you, um and and 305 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:12,840 Speaker 1: towards the existence of your people. Like, I really don't 306 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:17,320 Speaker 1: see long term where there's kind of an option for 307 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:20,240 Speaker 1: peace for Ukraine with this kind of rhetoric existing in 308 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:24,080 Speaker 1: Russia outside of smashing the Russian military to the greatest 309 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:31,680 Speaker 1: extent possible. Yeah, I mean I feel the same way, 310 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:34,479 Speaker 1: And that is a very terrifying thoughts. It's not crazy, 311 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:38,000 Speaker 1: like yeah, because my general latitude towards wars is that 312 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:41,760 Speaker 1: it's best when they're over. Yeah, exactly right. I have 313 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:45,960 Speaker 1: no I have no strong desire to see to like 314 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 1: bomb Russian cities. Well, I mean, okay, that's that's that's 315 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:52,840 Speaker 1: a little bit of lie. But no one, no one, 316 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:55,960 Speaker 1: no one can blame someone living in Ukraine right now 317 00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:59,040 Speaker 1: for feeling a bit of a desire for for vengeance, 318 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:04,480 Speaker 1: even though I don't think that's particularly likely to help matters. Yeah, 319 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:10,480 Speaker 1: probably not. And I generally don't want to um see 320 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:14,600 Speaker 1: like a world war in Europe or anything like that. 321 00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:17,919 Speaker 1: But I I really when I racked my brains of 322 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:22,720 Speaker 1: what can be done, like how you can live with 323 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 1: like the these people aren't you know, thousands of climbers 324 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 1: away or on the other side of the continent. They're 325 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:34,760 Speaker 1: literally the neighboring state. Um And I I just I 326 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:37,920 Speaker 1: don't have any answers of how Ukraine is supposed to 327 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:41,600 Speaker 1: move forward while Russia remains in its current configuration. Like 328 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:45,720 Speaker 1: I don't see a future, um a coexistence of any 329 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:50,200 Speaker 1: kind that's possible when they are literally calling for our extermination. 330 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:04,320 Speaker 1: I think that's also kind of the question of how 331 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:08,320 Speaker 1: do we have There's this this phrase that you heard 332 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:11,080 Speaker 1: a lot, particularly kind of in the in the post 333 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:14,240 Speaker 1: World War two period of like the need for rules 334 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:17,640 Speaker 1: based international order, and the United States was as much 335 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:20,480 Speaker 1: apart as anyone of making sure that that was never 336 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:23,679 Speaker 1: anything more than a than a friendly lie. Right, you 337 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:26,120 Speaker 1: had a couple of brief moments here and there where 338 00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:30,960 Speaker 1: it was attempted to be imposed, um, Yugoslavia or well, 339 00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:34,439 Speaker 1: you know, Bosnia being kind of a clear example, but 340 00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 1: it was always you know, in between a bunch of 341 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:40,040 Speaker 1: illegal wars on behalf of a bunch of different states, 342 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:43,160 Speaker 1: and illegal fundings of of insurgent groups and all sorts 343 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:47,440 Speaker 1: of sketchy stuff and kind of culminated. And I think 344 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:49,679 Speaker 1: you can we keep going back to Syria, which is 345 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:52,600 Speaker 1: an important part of like what allowed what's happening in 346 00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:55,399 Speaker 1: Ukraine to happen. But the invasion of Iraq by the 347 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:57,879 Speaker 1: United States was another one. Right, This idea that like 348 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:00,959 Speaker 1: and and the things that like torture and stuff by 349 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:04,120 Speaker 1: US force, is this this the fact? I mean, that's 350 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:08,520 Speaker 1: what the Russian diplomats. Yeah, that's what Russian diplomats always 351 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:11,399 Speaker 1: bring up in UM, in the U N and in 352 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:14,280 Speaker 1: other like international bodies whenever they're pressed on this question 353 00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:18,400 Speaker 1: human rights. They always invariably pointed the US and say, well, 354 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:21,800 Speaker 1: the US did this, this and this and the rock. Um, 355 00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:24,280 Speaker 1: how come the US gets to do whatever it wants 356 00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:27,800 Speaker 1: with no pushback, and the implication being that Russia also 357 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:30,120 Speaker 1: believes it should be able to do whatever it wants 358 00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:34,080 Speaker 1: with no pushback. And obviously like the fact that the 359 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:36,879 Speaker 1: United States committed war crimes does not mean that Russia 360 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:39,560 Speaker 1: should get to commit war crimes. But from like a 361 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:42,840 Speaker 1: point of view of like, if we're looking at things 362 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:46,479 Speaker 1: from an international perspective, yeah, if the United States is 363 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 1: going to do ship like that, well other countries are 364 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:52,359 Speaker 1: going to do ship like that, and see it as like, 365 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:55,000 Speaker 1: well there there isn't like why why are we bound 366 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:58,760 Speaker 1: by an international order but not you and I. One 367 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:01,520 Speaker 1: of the things that so fright about the kind of 368 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:04,800 Speaker 1: rhetoric coming out of Russia is that it it shows 369 00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:08,400 Speaker 1: those kind of dreams that people had in the wake 370 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:11,119 Speaker 1: of World War Two, which again there was no like 371 00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 1: Golden Age after World War Two. The United States went 372 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:16,639 Speaker 1: right to regime change in Africa and Latin America, all 373 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:19,920 Speaker 1: sorts of fucked up ship. But it shows that like 374 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:25,760 Speaker 1: any kind of international hope of something like that ever existing, 375 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:30,720 Speaker 1: has has fallen apart. We are we are if people 376 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:33,960 Speaker 1: want something like that. And I do believe that some 377 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:37,080 Speaker 1: sort of rules based international order. And I'm not talking 378 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:41,200 Speaker 1: about like you and global government. I'm talking about broad 379 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:44,399 Speaker 1: ranging international agreements that, for example, you don't get to 380 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:48,560 Speaker 1: fire chemical weapons at civilians, you know, Like, um, I 381 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:51,080 Speaker 1: think that would be nice, a nice thing to exist, 382 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:54,040 Speaker 1: And I think part of what we're seeing here is 383 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:56,520 Speaker 1: that any chance of having that has kind of been 384 00:24:56,560 --> 00:25:01,040 Speaker 1: reset to zero. Um. Not that it was ever a reality, 385 00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:05,800 Speaker 1: but I think the kind of I think the rhetoric 386 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:11,200 Speaker 1: around the fact that ever existed has completely dissolved now. Um. 387 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:16,000 Speaker 1: And maybe that's not like particularly bad, because it's bad 388 00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:18,920 Speaker 1: for people to believe something exists when it doesn't, because 389 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:23,440 Speaker 1: that that international order never did really exist, But um, 390 00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:27,119 Speaker 1: I think what we're seeing here is kind of the 391 00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:32,920 Speaker 1: final collapse of any belief that, uh, there's an inner 392 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:39,719 Speaker 1: there are international standards of morality and behavior for states. Yeah. Absolutely. 393 00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:44,480 Speaker 1: I mean there's a lot of reasons why. UM. Ukraine's 394 00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:46,600 Speaker 1: President Lanski gets a lot of props from from a 395 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:48,800 Speaker 1: lot of people right now. But one of the things 396 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:51,920 Speaker 1: that has absolutely I personally rate as absolutely as the 397 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:55,960 Speaker 1: kids say based in recent days was the Lensky's addressed 398 00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:58,360 Speaker 1: um in from the u N where he called them 399 00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:02,040 Speaker 1: basically cowards. If they don't kick Russia out and they 400 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:06,200 Speaker 1: can't even enforce their main um, their main goal, which 401 00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:11,439 Speaker 1: is peace, um, then they should dissolve. And honestly, I 402 00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:16,000 Speaker 1: don't see any any issues with that argument. That seemed yeah, 403 00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:19,560 Speaker 1: completely rational. What what is the point of this organization 404 00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:24,480 Speaker 1: if it cannot even do something as simple or not simple, 405 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:27,960 Speaker 1: but if it cannot do something as straightforward as punish 406 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:31,440 Speaker 1: the perpetrators of John side, what exactly is the point 407 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:33,800 Speaker 1: of it? That's exactly kind of where I am, which 408 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:35,720 Speaker 1: is like, why are we like right now we have 409 00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:39,919 Speaker 1: this issue where like after Russian evidence of Russian genocide 410 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:43,280 Speaker 1: was uncovered, Russia is set to the the UN, the 411 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:46,320 Speaker 1: Human rights uh what you call it? Um that they 412 00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:50,200 Speaker 1: are yeah, herman rights canceled, that they're a permanent member 413 00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:54,840 Speaker 1: of and like like basically filed a complaint against Ukraine 414 00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:59,159 Speaker 1: for doing the genocide that they did. Um. And uh, 415 00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:02,639 Speaker 1: you know there's talk about we could dissolve and reform 416 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:05,639 Speaker 1: the Council without Russia, we could kick like there's there's options, 417 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:10,240 Speaker 1: I guess in a parliamentary sense, but broadly speaking, when 418 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:14,399 Speaker 1: one of the people sitting on that Council has is 419 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:17,080 Speaker 1: in the process of carrying out a genocide, which they 420 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:20,520 Speaker 1: are justifying in this way through their through their media organs. 421 00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:24,600 Speaker 1: What is the fucking point of having that. It's just 422 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:27,240 Speaker 1: like it was like the night of the invasion. I 423 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:30,439 Speaker 1: sat and I watched everything happening in the U n 424 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:35,520 Speaker 1: UM and my my thought the whole time, as like 425 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:39,600 Speaker 1: every all of these international representatives were like, you can't 426 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:41,280 Speaker 1: do this right, you have to stop. You have to 427 00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:44,080 Speaker 1: stop like try like begging for there to be some 428 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:46,720 Speaker 1: sort of peace in Russia. Just going ahead and doing it. 429 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:49,920 Speaker 1: It was like, you know what we what we saw? UM. 430 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:52,280 Speaker 1: It not dissimilar to some of the ship that happened 431 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:54,479 Speaker 1: and then leading to the Iraq War, where it was like, okay, 432 00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:56,679 Speaker 1: well a lot of people agreed, this is fucked up. 433 00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:59,960 Speaker 1: I guess that doesn't mean anything. Um. And it did 434 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 1: mean anything. Uh. And uh that's why have it? Like 435 00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:10,160 Speaker 1: why why pretend that it means anything? UM? I guess 436 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:14,679 Speaker 1: that's where I am. I mean, it's it's the same 437 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:18,800 Speaker 1: um to draw parallel to to US politics. It's it's 438 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:23,760 Speaker 1: the same as UM like the Democratic Party during the 439 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:27,800 Speaker 1: Trump era saying oh, Mr President, you can't do all 440 00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:30,639 Speaker 1: of these obviously legal things you're doing that's bad. You 441 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:34,720 Speaker 1: should stop, Like here's here investigations that prove that you're 442 00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:37,479 Speaker 1: doing the bad things. Please stop, Mr President, with all 443 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:42,360 Speaker 1: the violated the Emoluments Clause, okay, like okay, are you 444 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:46,600 Speaker 1: going to enforce it? Enforce any of this? Like without enforcement, 445 00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:51,840 Speaker 1: all of this condemnation is literally just noise. It doesn't react, 446 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:55,040 Speaker 1: It doesn't result in anything in the material world that 447 00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:59,400 Speaker 1: will have an effect in curtailing or restricting this behavior 448 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:02,760 Speaker 1: now or the future. And if you cannot do that, 449 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:05,920 Speaker 1: then what I like to call it, what you have 450 00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:11,240 Speaker 1: the job program for yuppies. Yeah, yes, international rules based order. 451 00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 1: I when I was in Iraq during the war against 452 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:19,640 Speaker 1: Dices and hanging out primarily with not just Kurds, but 453 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:23,960 Speaker 1: like Kurds who were natives of mosle Um when we 454 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:26,480 Speaker 1: were kind of back in her bill away from the front. 455 00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:30,760 Speaker 1: The number one organization, the number one group that they 456 00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:34,080 Speaker 1: complained about, was not the United States, nor was said isis. 457 00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:36,960 Speaker 1: It was the United Nations, who were generally viewed to 458 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:38,960 Speaker 1: be a bunch of you like they saw them the 459 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:41,520 Speaker 1: way like people see like trust fund kids. They were 460 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:45,040 Speaker 1: a bunch of rich assholes tooling around in land rovers, 461 00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:49,760 Speaker 1: staying in nice hotels and burning money on fucking bullshit. UM. 462 00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:53,840 Speaker 1: And and that's I don't know. It's so the idea 463 00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:56,520 Speaker 1: of the United Nations as what it was supposed to be, 464 00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:59,960 Speaker 1: which is like, yeah, we should things like what then 465 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,800 Speaker 1: Bazis did shouldn't be allowed to get nearly as far 466 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:04,880 Speaker 1: as they did. And perhaps if all of the Nations 467 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:07,280 Speaker 1: were sitting together and saying, well, that's bad, right, we 468 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:10,200 Speaker 1: don't want people doing that, um, maybe some of these 469 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:13,800 Speaker 1: bad things would stop happening. UM. And what it has 470 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:17,440 Speaker 1: turned into is, yeah, it's a jobs program for fucking yuppies. 471 00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:20,520 Speaker 1: It's it's not that there aren't individual things within the 472 00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:22,560 Speaker 1: U n I've certainly been to a lot of places, 473 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:26,200 Speaker 1: particularly refugee camps, that had infrastructure because of u n 474 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:29,720 Speaker 1: h c R, even though that's a very flawed organization. UM. 475 00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:32,280 Speaker 1: I can't deny that a lot of people got access 476 00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:35,840 Speaker 1: to basic survival gear that was necessary because of u 477 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:42,280 Speaker 1: n h c R UM United Nations Humanitarian Crisis Relief. UM. 478 00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:47,400 Speaker 1: But overall it's just it's nothing. You know, there was 479 00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:50,480 Speaker 1: there's a really I think my favorite piece of graffiti ever, um, 480 00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:56,920 Speaker 1: which was spotted in um Sarajevo during the Serbian encirclement 481 00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:01,920 Speaker 1: and and shelling of that city. Um. And it's uh 482 00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:04,120 Speaker 1: spray painting of you in in the style of the 483 00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:09,000 Speaker 1: UN's logo, and then underneath it united nothing um. And 484 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:11,120 Speaker 1: And that was the attitude of a lot of people 485 00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:13,760 Speaker 1: in the city as they like watched the UN bicker 486 00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:17,200 Speaker 1: over what was to be done about the fact that 487 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:20,280 Speaker 1: an army had surrounded a city full of civilians and 488 00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:23,760 Speaker 1: was pounding the high rise apartment buildings with artillery and 489 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:29,000 Speaker 1: tank cannons all day long. Man, that sure sounds real familiar. 490 00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:31,280 Speaker 1: It's a good thing that never happened. Again, I don't 491 00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:38,160 Speaker 1: know what that sounds, um, but I mean, yeah, it's 492 00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:41,520 Speaker 1: it's anyway, Um, Romeo, has anything else you wanted to 493 00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:46,440 Speaker 1: get through today as we stare at this thing, this 494 00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:51,240 Speaker 1: bad thing. Honestly, I just as much as normally I 495 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:55,080 Speaker 1: would encourage people to not pollute their brains with with 496 00:31:55,160 --> 00:32:00,400 Speaker 1: thatcher stage prop in this case, I would recommend people 497 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:04,959 Speaker 1: read through um my translation at the New Voice. If 498 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:07,960 Speaker 1: you don't trust me for whatever reason, you can pull 499 00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:11,640 Speaker 1: up the original and google translated machine translate it yourself. 500 00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:16,560 Speaker 1: It'll be a serviceable translation, and just read it for yourself, UM, 501 00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:21,840 Speaker 1: because I want to make it very clear that Russia 502 00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:28,840 Speaker 1: is no longer simply like some hyper capitalist, kleptocratic oligarch state. 503 00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:33,800 Speaker 1: It is literally fascist. It is using fascist rhetoric and 504 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:37,920 Speaker 1: fascist techniques to eliminate an ethnic group it considers to 505 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:42,040 Speaker 1: be inferior to its own, um, in order to take 506 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:45,680 Speaker 1: its land and resources for itself. It is. There is 507 00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:51,160 Speaker 1: no greater distillation of fascism on this planet right now 508 00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:55,880 Speaker 1: than the Russian Federation. Yeah, they're doing and I really 509 00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:59,120 Speaker 1: would like people to understand, especially if you consider yourself 510 00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:03,640 Speaker 1: anti imperialist or anti fascist or anything, the Russian Federation 511 00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:08,040 Speaker 1: is a fascist government um, on the level of Nazi Germany, 512 00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:12,920 Speaker 1: and it is attempting to uh to literally this article 513 00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:18,840 Speaker 1: is called is called what shall we do with the Ukrainians? Yeah, um, 514 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:27,920 Speaker 1: the Ukrainian question, you know, um. And this article is 515 00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:35,520 Speaker 1: proposing a solution to the Ukrainian question. So again UM. 516 00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:38,400 Speaker 1: Mostly that's what I would like to leave your listeners, 517 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:42,800 Speaker 1: Robert with an understanding. UM. And again you don't have 518 00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:46,440 Speaker 1: to trust me, you can go and read this for yourself. Um, 519 00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:50,520 Speaker 1: that the the greatest fascist threat on this planet right 520 00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:53,160 Speaker 1: now is not the United States of America, as shocking 521 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:56,239 Speaker 1: as that may sound, um, and as hard as that 522 00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:59,880 Speaker 1: maybe to buy. Uh, it is the Russian Federation and 523 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:04,480 Speaker 1: it is right now trying to genocide the country and 524 00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:09,400 Speaker 1: the people that I belong to. Yeah. Um, so I 525 00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:13,560 Speaker 1: don't know, maybe make a note of that, folks, put 526 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:19,080 Speaker 1: that in here in your mental rolodex. Um. It's uh, 527 00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:21,480 Speaker 1: I don't know. I I I hope you continue to 528 00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:25,719 Speaker 1: stay safe. I'm glad your area of Ukraine is at 529 00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:29,520 Speaker 1: least less under under the gun than it was earlier 530 00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:35,160 Speaker 1: in this war. Um. I'm glad broadly speaking, that the 531 00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:38,279 Speaker 1: Russian Federation has bitten off a hell of a lot 532 00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:41,239 Speaker 1: more than they were able to chew um, and now 533 00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:45,200 Speaker 1: are doing their chewing without nearly as many teeth. Um. 534 00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:49,080 Speaker 1: And yeah, I hope that process continues, and I hope 535 00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:53,279 Speaker 1: the siege of Mariopolis lifted. Yeah, thanks a lot. I 536 00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:57,239 Speaker 1: really appreciate um letting letting me make an appearance, and 537 00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:02,040 Speaker 1: um going through us with me, and uh, yeah, I 538 00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:05,240 Speaker 1: think we share the same hopes here. Yeah, all right, everybody, 539 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:12,719 Speaker 1: that's the episode, Go go away. It Could Happen Here 540 00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:15,400 Speaker 1: as a production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts 541 00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:18,040 Speaker 1: from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone media 542 00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:19,879 Speaker 1: dot com or check us out on the I Heart 543 00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:23,000 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 544 00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:25,680 Speaker 1: You can find sources for It could Happen Here, updated 545 00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:29,200 Speaker 1: monthly at cool zone Media dot com slash sources. Thanks 546 00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:29,760 Speaker 1: for listening.