WEBVTT - I Know This Much Is True (Part 2) 0:00:04.559 --> 0:00:08.360 Last week we brought you mental Illness, grievous, bodily harm, 0:00:08.360 --> 0:00:13.160 broken families, and double mark Ruffalos. This is Popcorn Book 0:00:13.160 --> 0:00:16.720 Club from My Heart Radio, and we're continuing our conversations 0:00:16.840 --> 0:00:19.599 about I Know This Much is True by Wally Lamb, 0:00:20.040 --> 0:00:23.400 now a series on HBO with the story this Bleak, 0:00:23.560 --> 0:00:28.080 we found ourselves imagining better futures for our characters. She marries. 0:00:28.160 --> 0:00:30.960 She marries the actor who place Prince Charming. They're cute. 0:00:31.000 --> 0:00:36.000 They have a joint Instagram account. The nice thing about 0:00:36.040 --> 0:00:38.920 this book being so comprehensive is that there's so much. 0:00:41.600 --> 0:00:43.800 This is part two of our discussions, So if you 0:00:43.840 --> 0:00:46.360 haven't listened to part one yet, I promised things will 0:00:46.400 --> 0:00:49.600 make a lot more sense if you start there. Cool, okay, 0:00:49.680 --> 0:00:53.159 let's jump in. Hi there, I'm Danishwartz and welcome to 0:00:53.240 --> 0:00:56.120 Popcorn Book Club. I'm joined as always by my beautiful 0:00:56.160 --> 0:01:04.160 co hosts Jennifer Right, Tan Tran Cramadogua and Melissa Hunter. Everyone. Uh, 0:01:04.200 --> 0:01:07.080 this was This is a lot of content to get through. 0:01:07.720 --> 0:01:09.720 I just want to remind you that at the end 0:01:09.760 --> 0:01:13.120 of last time we were like, oh, he's talking to 0:01:13.280 --> 0:01:16.720 Dr Ptel Domina actually feels like he's on the upswing. 0:01:17.160 --> 0:01:22.760 This feels like progress. Noe. So I feel like I 0:01:22.760 --> 0:01:25.759 feel like there's like a few major events to go 0:01:25.880 --> 0:01:28.280 through that I want to talk to. Um. Does at 0:01:28.319 --> 0:01:31.640 even have very strong feelings about a thing to start with? Well, 0:01:31.760 --> 0:01:39.440 I mean so many atrocities, yes, and that doesn't even 0:01:39.520 --> 0:01:43.480 feel like the worst part of it was just like 0:01:44.200 --> 0:01:48.520 offhand oopsie. Yeah. I felt like when I was reading 0:01:48.800 --> 0:01:51.640 I forgot about horrible things, and then in the drip 0:01:51.720 --> 0:01:54.120 chat when we were like talk about them and like, 0:01:54.160 --> 0:01:58.840 oh right, that also happened. It feels like we've reached 0:01:59.320 --> 0:02:05.480 like human atrocity bingo of like this covered every atrocity 0:02:05.560 --> 0:02:08.400 that can happen to a person or groups of people 0:02:08.600 --> 0:02:14.920 in this book. We have rape, molestation, UM, pedophilia, pedophil 0:02:17.760 --> 0:02:27.400 under the bus, to the police, suicide. Yeah, yeah, I forget, 0:02:27.440 --> 0:02:33.120 infant sudden infant death. Sorry, but I know we covered 0:02:33.240 --> 0:02:39.679 that infest and we say incest, no, no, incest and 0:02:39.800 --> 0:02:42.160 incest to You're so right, Melissa, It does feel like 0:02:42.639 --> 0:02:45.840 human atrocity bingo. It felt like Wally was like, how 0:02:45.840 --> 0:02:48.640 do we make this even more fucked up? Let me 0:02:48.880 --> 0:02:51.760 keep adding more and more. I mean, we talked about 0:02:51.800 --> 0:02:53.200 it in the chat, but it feels like a soap 0:02:53.240 --> 0:02:58.440 opera at this point, this little fucking grin picture. I 0:02:58.600 --> 0:03:01.399 don't like seeing the picture the authors because every time 0:03:01.440 --> 0:03:05.920 something bad HAPs, I just see him going, what do 0:03:06.000 --> 0:03:08.440 we what do we think the prize is? What do 0:03:08.520 --> 0:03:14.200 we think the prizes for human atrocity? Bingo nap? I 0:03:14.240 --> 0:03:20.200 think a long daytime nap. Yeah. I kept thinking about 0:03:20.200 --> 0:03:23.920 how if this had been a female author, people would 0:03:23.960 --> 0:03:26.880 talk about how she hated men, How the men and 0:03:26.919 --> 0:03:32.480 this people are so consistently vileed, just vile beyond any imagination, 0:03:32.720 --> 0:03:36.480 and the women are all pretty good people like the 0:03:36.480 --> 0:03:40.080 wodn't have done anything too terrible. Yet Joy not actively 0:03:40.160 --> 0:03:45.400 bad Joy, but I feel is a victim. Joy is 0:03:45.440 --> 0:03:48.640 a Yeah, you know, she makes mistakes, but I don't 0:03:48.640 --> 0:03:52.760 feel like she's actively bad. Yeah. I feel like Joy 0:03:52.880 --> 0:03:55.880 was raped at thirteen and she's tried to deal. There's 0:03:55.880 --> 0:03:59.440 no woman that's like a cartoon villain twirling their mustache 0:03:59.520 --> 0:04:02.880 or anything. Yeah, she's been under the like the abuse 0:04:03.000 --> 0:04:07.640 of her uncle since age twelve, like over her thirteen years. 0:04:07.680 --> 0:04:12.360 So it's a danger of grooming, isn't it. You know? Yeah? Um, well, 0:04:12.400 --> 0:04:15.480 let's start, because we have been discussing who the good 0:04:15.520 --> 0:04:18.080 guys were, like, are there any good guys? And we 0:04:18.080 --> 0:04:22.359 were like, yeah, her her gay friend dad, and that 0:04:22.600 --> 0:04:26.400 that backfired in her face. Ever wrong about that? I 0:04:26.440 --> 0:04:31.880 only imagined, like after the last section of like Joy 0:04:31.920 --> 0:04:35.760 should just go live with that and his husband and 0:04:35.839 --> 0:04:38.240 lived like a very happy life. And little did we 0:04:38.360 --> 0:04:40.719 know that was exactly what was happening. And it was 0:04:40.760 --> 0:04:43.720 the worst thing that could ever happen to Joy. So 0:04:43.960 --> 0:04:46.440 she stuck with him forever. She has a baby, So 0:04:46.520 --> 0:04:50.320 let's talk about Joy. What we learned in these chapters 0:04:50.880 --> 0:04:54.800 is that Joy is pregnant. Joy the twenty three Remember 0:04:54.800 --> 0:04:58.040 she's twenty three. She worked to Jim uh Dominic does 0:04:58.080 --> 0:05:00.480 not seem to like her at all or I think 0:05:00.560 --> 0:05:04.080 she's pretty. She like acknowledges that other people think she's pretty, 0:05:04.120 --> 0:05:06.680 but he does not care about that. Everyone comments on 0:05:06.760 --> 0:05:09.560 how hot she is yeah, and he's like, I'm talking 0:05:09.560 --> 0:05:13.040 about and he gets jealous and he's like, oh, what 0:05:13.080 --> 0:05:15.799 do you mean you know? Joy? So it's like, yeah, 0:05:16.320 --> 0:05:19.440 you can't have it both ways, my dude. You cannot 0:05:18.960 --> 0:05:21.520 be that people think she's hot but also not think 0:05:21.600 --> 0:05:25.920 she's hot. And then also just and also he doesn't 0:05:25.920 --> 0:05:28.360 be obvious, but he's like twice her age. Shouldn't he 0:05:28.440 --> 0:05:31.760 feel at least somewhat lucky to have a very beautiful, 0:05:31.880 --> 0:05:34.760 much younger girlfriend. No, not like he has a lot 0:05:34.800 --> 0:05:36.960 going on for him. I feel like it's one of 0:05:36.960 --> 0:05:38.960 those things where he just wants to have her, to 0:05:39.040 --> 0:05:41.880 have her where he doesn't like her as a person 0:05:42.000 --> 0:05:46.080 or who she is. He just likes having a young, pretty, 0:05:46.200 --> 0:05:49.800 living girlfriend for the things that that kind of takes well. 0:05:49.839 --> 0:05:52.680 And it's like he went from his mother Todessa to joy. 0:05:52.800 --> 0:05:55.200 He's never been about a woman in his life, and 0:05:55.240 --> 0:05:58.160 I'm curious to see how long that lasts. As we 0:05:58.200 --> 0:06:01.000 move on to the next section, that that should be 0:06:01.040 --> 0:06:04.320 our advice to Dominic. Dominic, you gotta be single, you 0:06:04.400 --> 0:06:07.680 gotta find you gotta find yourself. You gotta sit with 0:06:07.720 --> 0:06:11.279 your singleness. Don't just jump from woman to woman. He 0:06:11.360 --> 0:06:14.599 needs to go to Greece like Desa and have an experience, 0:06:14.680 --> 0:06:17.240 or Italy. He can go to Sicily and he can 0:06:17.279 --> 0:06:21.680 go see where Domenico is from. Oh god, he could 0:06:21.720 --> 0:06:25.400 do in five days a week. It is my only 0:06:25.480 --> 0:06:28.359 plan for Dominic to whatever from Anna think going on 0:06:28.440 --> 0:06:30.760 in his life. So, in terms of plot, what we 0:06:30.839 --> 0:06:34.000 figure out with Joy just a brief recap, is that 0:06:34.720 --> 0:06:39.040 she tells Dominic she's pregnant. Dominic had gotten a vasectomy 0:06:39.040 --> 0:06:42.200 back when he was married to Tessa. Doesn't tell Joy 0:06:42.240 --> 0:06:46.640 this immediately. Surprise confront Surprise confronts her when she comes 0:06:46.680 --> 0:06:49.120 to visit him in the hospital after his second of 0:06:49.160 --> 0:06:53.240 two major accidents um and then she leaves him. She 0:06:53.360 --> 0:06:56.520 brings him a recording in which she confesses that that 0:06:57.960 --> 0:07:01.760 does my apologies. That thinks with the recording, isn't I 0:07:01.760 --> 0:07:04.200 think it's bad. I always thought it was bad. I 0:07:04.279 --> 0:07:07.800 thought I knew with that once. So I'm just assuming 0:07:07.839 --> 0:07:11.400 that this guy is like that guy. There's a there's 0:07:11.400 --> 0:07:14.840 an age in there. I don't know, an asshole. We 0:07:14.840 --> 0:07:18.680 don't have to get his name right now. But so 0:07:18.800 --> 0:07:24.400 he spoiler alert, was not gay. He was bisexual. And 0:07:24.480 --> 0:07:28.520 he was the uncle that had been molesting her since 0:07:28.520 --> 0:07:32.000 she was twelve, had sort of stayed in touch, kept 0:07:32.040 --> 0:07:36.240 grooming her in a really, really troubling way, ruined her 0:07:36.280 --> 0:07:39.360 first two marriages. I don't even think we got to 0:07:39.400 --> 0:07:43.160 this manipulated Joy into letting him watch them have sex. 0:07:44.920 --> 0:07:48.000 That's why, that's why I was like, Joy is not 0:07:48.240 --> 0:07:52.040 great because like, even though she is under duressed, I'm 0:07:52.080 --> 0:07:54.440 not saying that she's just like, oh yeah, hunky Dorry, 0:07:54.480 --> 0:07:57.720 sure watch us. But still I feel like there's a 0:07:57.840 --> 0:08:03.520 violation at that point of dominant consent that I'm like 0:08:06.840 --> 0:08:13.880 sual situation across that across the board she gaslet him, 0:08:14.080 --> 0:08:21.400 you know, like he he channeled his jealousy into angry homophobia, 0:08:21.480 --> 0:08:24.600 which was not correct, but he was he didn't like 0:08:24.760 --> 0:08:28.080 their relationship. There was something I feel like underlying that 0:08:28.080 --> 0:08:33.120 that he was just missing as him being hating gay people. 0:08:33.600 --> 0:08:36.040 But she was like, oh, you're so homophobic, when it's 0:08:36.040 --> 0:08:39.720 really like he was angry about it, and she was 0:08:39.760 --> 0:08:42.040 trying to make him be like it's because he's gay, 0:08:42.160 --> 0:08:45.280 that's why you're mad about him, Like because he's all 0:08:45.320 --> 0:08:53.760 of the duchess, Like I'm saying he's homophobic. However, I 0:08:53.800 --> 0:08:57.280 feel like what I looking back on the chapters, Joy 0:08:57.600 --> 0:09:01.480 used that as like, this is why you're upset with him. 0:09:01.640 --> 0:09:04.560 It's just because you're afraid of gay people, not because 0:09:04.559 --> 0:09:07.920 you see that there's something else going on between us. 0:09:08.080 --> 0:09:12.520 You know. We'd also love to flag that Wally's depiction 0:09:12.600 --> 0:09:15.720 of the only queer people in this book are are 0:09:15.880 --> 0:09:22.319 It's like intertwined with pedophilia. So good job the architects 0:09:23.240 --> 0:09:29.719 at least we think the architect is Okay, you're right, Yes, 0:09:29.840 --> 0:09:33.000 the architect is the one married to Thad. I don't know. 0:09:33.240 --> 0:09:35.960 I feel like he'd complicit. He kicks out when he 0:09:36.000 --> 0:09:38.440 finds out, he kicks him out. When was that? I 0:09:38.520 --> 0:09:42.000 might miss that. There was a lot happening. I'm surprised 0:09:42.080 --> 0:09:44.880 you got literally anything. But actually I wanted to talk 0:09:44.920 --> 0:09:50.680 about said and the negative depictions of queer people because 0:09:50.880 --> 0:09:53.120 there's also a moment that's like a blank if you 0:09:53.200 --> 0:09:57.200 miss it moment where in this section where Dominic talks 0:09:57.240 --> 0:10:00.320 about the fact that he was a molest sit by 0:10:00.320 --> 0:10:04.920 a guy while he was hitch hiking. Yes, and he 0:10:04.960 --> 0:10:08.640 was using his brother as like, well this happened to 0:10:08.679 --> 0:10:15.800 my brother. Yeah, and uh there was the Leo's teacher 0:10:16.840 --> 0:10:24.640 was like, so it's all these like and and yes, 0:10:24.679 --> 0:10:28.839 that's the worst part. All of every queer character in 0:10:28.920 --> 0:10:36.000 a book are predators. Yes, yeah, I believe that Dr 0:10:36.080 --> 0:10:42.920 Patel is a wise lesbian. I just oh, yeah, she 0:10:42.920 --> 0:10:46.720 showed up. She showed up in overalls. I mean, come on, yeah, Yeah, 0:10:47.120 --> 0:10:52.880 she's lesbian. Yeah, awesome social. She's definitely the Christie of 0:10:52.920 --> 0:11:00.360 that babysitters club. I mean, yeah, so many predators you 0:11:00.640 --> 0:11:02.559 could fill out a bingo. We're getting five in a 0:11:02.679 --> 0:11:06.120 row right there. I guess we could try to rank 0:11:06.160 --> 0:11:10.120 these people from worst to best, but that feels I 0:11:10.120 --> 0:11:13.080 don't even know how to begin doing that. The thing 0:11:13.160 --> 0:11:16.640 that I do want to talk about Ralph in a 0:11:16.800 --> 0:11:19.040 in a in a way that I feel like in 0:11:19.080 --> 0:11:22.600 this section we get a lot of Ralph in different ways, 0:11:22.640 --> 0:11:24.720 and I think it's important to sort of trace that 0:11:25.280 --> 0:11:30.240 we start uh talking about. It's interesting because we're getting 0:11:30.240 --> 0:11:34.199 the story from Dominic. Dominic thinks it's thinks he's telling 0:11:34.240 --> 0:11:37.240 Thomas's story. So he's telling about the summer that they 0:11:37.240 --> 0:11:42.079 worked at the public works, you know, campsites, and that 0:11:42.200 --> 0:11:45.480 was the summer that Thomas sort of had his break. 0:11:45.520 --> 0:11:48.280 But that's also the summer that you know, they spent 0:11:48.360 --> 0:11:51.360 a long time with Ralph. Jennifer, do you want to 0:11:51.360 --> 0:11:55.640 sort of recap how we knew Ralph up to this point? Oh? Yeah, 0:11:56.120 --> 0:11:59.000 they were all working together at the public Works. Um 0:11:59.720 --> 0:12:04.360 Raw was their co worker. They were friendly, um, they 0:12:04.480 --> 0:12:09.440 had a very racist boss. Whom treated Ralph terribly. That 0:12:09.600 --> 0:12:13.840 was del I'm gonna yeah, his name was del Um, 0:12:14.640 --> 0:12:18.960 and Ralph provided them with marijuana at one point. Um. 0:12:19.360 --> 0:12:23.080 But it was nicely, it was friendly that he was 0:12:23.120 --> 0:12:25.760 sharing with him. It wasn't It took him them a 0:12:25.760 --> 0:12:28.839 while to open up to him. He was very isolated 0:12:28.920 --> 0:12:31.880 from them, and then like you know, he played baseball 0:12:31.920 --> 0:12:33.640 with them and he was really good at it, and 0:12:33.679 --> 0:12:36.280 then he's just slowly he opened up and began to 0:12:36.360 --> 0:12:41.319 trust him. Yeah. Um, so it felt like a positive 0:12:41.400 --> 0:12:46.880 experience until Dell said that he could sell Dominic his 0:12:46.920 --> 0:12:50.640 old car that belonged to his life, and they went 0:12:50.679 --> 0:12:56.400 over to Dell's house. Um, they found um homosexual magazines 0:12:56.480 --> 0:12:58.920 and they also found out that Ralph was living there, 0:12:59.040 --> 0:13:03.840 which they didn't no. Um, so do we want to 0:13:03.880 --> 0:13:06.800 talk about that? Well? I think it was interesting that 0:13:06.840 --> 0:13:09.440 revealed that Ralph was living there because there had been 0:13:09.440 --> 0:13:12.600 sort of sprinkled hints at it because they I thought 0:13:12.640 --> 0:13:15.640 that they were hinting at Ralph maybe being homeless because 0:13:15.640 --> 0:13:17.840 he was always wearing the same clothes. He was like, 0:13:17.880 --> 0:13:20.680 you can't come pick me up where I live And 0:13:21.000 --> 0:13:23.400 I was like, oh, if that makes me sad, that 0:13:23.440 --> 0:13:25.800 one of the only characters of color is homeless. But 0:13:25.840 --> 0:13:30.960 then I got sadder. So yeah, and you know, I 0:13:31.160 --> 0:13:35.480 felt it coming because they were driving to go fishing. 0:13:35.679 --> 0:13:38.240 I remember it very distinctly. They were driving to go fishing. 0:13:38.320 --> 0:13:42.319 Leo and Dominic and Dell had said call before you 0:13:42.400 --> 0:13:46.040 come over about seeing the car, and obviously this takes 0:13:46.080 --> 0:13:48.440 place in nineteen nine and there are no cell phones, 0:13:48.880 --> 0:13:51.480 so he just hops in the car. He's like, oh, right, 0:13:51.520 --> 0:13:53.680 I was supposed to go see Dell. Let me just 0:13:53.760 --> 0:13:56.880 pop over without calling, like I promised, because it's too 0:13:56.920 --> 0:13:59.640 late to call now. And then Ralph opens the door, 0:13:59.679 --> 0:14:01.319 and I was like, I knew something was going to 0:14:01.400 --> 0:14:03.440 be bad because he said, called before you come over. 0:14:03.880 --> 0:14:06.280 We don't know where Ralph lives. And they had just 0:14:06.400 --> 0:14:10.520 talked about buying a bunch of marijuana from Ralph to 0:14:10.600 --> 0:14:14.640 go then sell in college. So Ralph has been generously 0:14:14.760 --> 0:14:21.480 sharing his marijuana with them all summer, and the situation, yeah, 0:14:21.600 --> 0:14:26.720 it was Leo's idea. Probably did not even know they 0:14:26.760 --> 0:14:29.440 are planning to become drug dealers. He's like, what if 0:14:29.480 --> 0:14:32.120 we buy a lot? And he's like, does does Ralph 0:14:32.160 --> 0:14:35.080 even have a lot? And he's like he'll figure it out. 0:14:35.120 --> 0:14:41.360 Like of course Ralph did not offer, he's not involved. Um. 0:14:41.400 --> 0:14:44.520 And then uh, and I want to just recap briefly 0:14:44.600 --> 0:14:50.880 from last time. Ralph's sister was murdered at the Falls 0:14:51.040 --> 0:14:54.320 when she was in elementary school. So his sister was 0:14:54.320 --> 0:15:00.160 was violently like raped and murdered, uh in their childhood, 0:14:59.800 --> 0:15:03.880 right after Dominic lied to the teacher about her stealing 0:15:04.200 --> 0:15:09.640 even though she sometimes sometimes always two sisters spoils for 0:15:09.880 --> 0:15:14.440 Dominic and Thomas because they're the only other twins in town. Yeah, 0:15:15.080 --> 0:15:17.800 and then the only time that we see Ralph later 0:15:18.000 --> 0:15:21.360 is him confronting a racist teacher and being like cool 0:15:21.400 --> 0:15:24.800 as hell, and the teacher is absolutely racist and Ralph 0:15:24.880 --> 0:15:27.760 is absolutely right, but you're like, this system is not 0:15:27.880 --> 0:15:31.760 working for him. M m. And then Leo exploits it 0:15:31.840 --> 0:15:34.200 again by like when they get pulled over by the 0:15:34.240 --> 0:15:40.880 cops for smoking weed, Leo and Dominic throw Ralph under 0:15:40.880 --> 0:15:43.720 the bus, knowing that they can do that, that they 0:15:43.760 --> 0:15:46.720 can like and you see the insidiousness of like cops, 0:15:46.760 --> 0:15:48.960 which is like what we're talking about what's going on 0:15:49.080 --> 0:15:52.200 right now that they actually just like push Dominic to 0:15:52.280 --> 0:15:55.680 make this lie, like they're like you can leave if 0:15:55.720 --> 0:15:57.880 you tell us that, yes, Ralph is going to sell 0:15:57.880 --> 0:16:00.840 you drugs to deal. Yeah, and if you say no, 0:16:01.480 --> 0:16:05.400 then we'll keep you here. And he kept trying, in 0:16:05.520 --> 0:16:08.680 his like cowardly way to just be like, well, maybe 0:16:08.680 --> 0:16:12.120 I'll say like, well maybe it happened without me, instead 0:16:12.120 --> 0:16:14.720 of just saying like no, Leo's a liar. And that 0:16:14.800 --> 0:16:17.240 wasn't even good enough for the cops. It was like, no, 0:16:17.480 --> 0:16:19.880 I need you to say you heard it too, because 0:16:19.920 --> 0:16:24.600 they wanted even though they know like that it's all 0:16:24.640 --> 0:16:28.560 a lie, it's just a lot easier for them. It's 0:16:28.560 --> 0:16:30.960 like that Central Park lady who knows that the system 0:16:31.040 --> 0:16:34.800 is biased in favor of white people, Yes, Amy Cooper, 0:16:34.800 --> 0:16:38.560 where it's like both Leo knew it more consciously, I 0:16:38.600 --> 0:16:41.440 feel like, and then you know Dominic Shark picks up 0:16:41.440 --> 0:16:43.000 on it, where it's like, no, the cops just want 0:16:43.040 --> 0:16:46.320 to find an excuse to arrest the one person of 0:16:46.360 --> 0:16:49.760 color in this town. Yeah, but Dominic weaponized that as 0:16:49.800 --> 0:16:53.600 a kid, and then seeing it being used again and 0:16:53.640 --> 0:16:57.280 we're seeing Dominic be just a shitty person. He just 0:16:57.280 --> 0:17:02.720 sucked over that entire family. Yeah, just destroyed the drink waters. Yeah, 0:17:03.000 --> 0:17:05.399 who do you guys think in this instance of the 0:17:05.440 --> 0:17:11.000 police station is worse Leo, who is actively bullshitting and 0:17:11.200 --> 0:17:14.199 coming up with stuff like he implicated his own cousin 0:17:14.240 --> 0:17:17.720 who lived in New Rochelle in the whole situation. He's like, oh, 0:17:17.720 --> 0:17:19.480 I just threw in that to set him on the 0:17:19.480 --> 0:17:23.480 wrong trail. Or do we think that Dominic, who then 0:17:23.600 --> 0:17:27.119 realizes what Leo has done and has the opportunity to 0:17:27.280 --> 0:17:30.480 reverse it, to take responsibility for the thing that he 0:17:30.560 --> 0:17:33.280 did do. It's not like he got innocently No, I 0:17:33.320 --> 0:17:35.120 don't want to say, it's not like he was asking 0:17:35.240 --> 0:17:38.000 for it or anything like that, but he was caught 0:17:38.119 --> 0:17:41.080 red handed with an a legal substance in his vehicle, 0:17:41.760 --> 0:17:45.840 and he had an opportunity to say, yeah, man, I 0:17:45.880 --> 0:17:49.320 did that, and not throw Ralph under the bus like 0:17:49.359 --> 0:17:52.280 he threw his sister penny An under the bus. And 0:17:52.280 --> 0:17:54.760 it's like he did he learn Like which one of 0:17:54.800 --> 0:17:57.080 them is worse in that instance? I honestly don't know. 0:17:57.160 --> 0:18:01.960 I think the cops are worse, but I do think 0:18:02.080 --> 0:18:07.080 I do think that's interesting, Like I think Dominic because 0:18:07.160 --> 0:18:10.400 he's smarter and knows exactly what's happened, Like I think 0:18:10.600 --> 0:18:13.119 Leo is a bad person. Like we know he's a 0:18:13.160 --> 0:18:17.080 bad person, but he's a bad person just erratically, you know, 0:18:17.200 --> 0:18:19.080 Like he's like, all right, i'm gonna do this, I'm 0:18:19.080 --> 0:18:21.680 gonna say this. I'm gonna say this. But Dominic, like 0:18:22.000 --> 0:18:25.880 he knows what happened before, he knows exactly what will 0:18:25.920 --> 0:18:30.680 happen if he corroborates the story and knows what would 0:18:30.680 --> 0:18:35.080 happen to him if he doesn't, and he chooses to 0:18:35.200 --> 0:18:40.240 save himself of a slap on the wrist versus Ralph, 0:18:40.320 --> 0:18:44.640 who could likely be killed. Yeah, Like he's still a 0:18:44.640 --> 0:18:48.160 white guy who got arrested for marijuana. Like he's gonna 0:18:48.160 --> 0:18:52.480 be signed, he can be president, Like it's five. He 0:18:52.560 --> 0:18:56.400 got arrested for smoking marijuan in nineteen nine. It's uh, 0:18:56.480 --> 0:18:58.920 it's not going to be that shocking to anyone down 0:18:59.000 --> 0:19:02.080 the road. What that affect the draft. I don't know 0:19:02.160 --> 0:19:05.040 a ton about the draft, but I am curious if 0:19:05.080 --> 0:19:08.239 that was also a factor. It didn't seem like it 0:19:08.320 --> 0:19:10.200 was in his head. It seemed like his main factor 0:19:10.280 --> 0:19:12.880 was Ray. He was scared of getting in trouble with Red. 0:19:13.000 --> 0:19:15.320 I think what's interesting about these chapters, and I know 0:19:15.359 --> 0:19:19.320 we're going to get to the rape scene. Um, but 0:19:19.440 --> 0:19:25.400 it's like you're in this man's shoes who is a 0:19:25.840 --> 0:19:31.960 bad person, and like, I've never like read a rape 0:19:32.000 --> 0:19:35.160 scene from the point of view of a rapist before 0:19:37.080 --> 0:19:39.680 this was that was at least in my memory. And 0:19:40.960 --> 0:19:44.880 it was so shocking because you're like you're with him 0:19:44.920 --> 0:19:47.959 on this ride, You're you're you're not for him, but 0:19:48.080 --> 0:19:52.520 you you see his reasoning and like that is so 0:19:53.080 --> 0:19:56.720 scary to like he read, like be reading and be 0:19:56.880 --> 0:19:59.280 with that person as much as you don't want to be. 0:20:00.400 --> 0:20:03.639 It's like, you know exactly why he sold out Ralph 0:20:03.760 --> 0:20:07.240 because he was afraid of his father. He wanted to 0:20:07.280 --> 0:20:10.720 go back to school. He like he wanted he decided 0:20:10.760 --> 0:20:12.960 he was for to protect his brother. He found his 0:20:13.119 --> 0:20:16.719 rationales just like you found his rationales to rape Dasa, 0:20:17.800 --> 0:20:22.480 and it's it's really it was just really jarring to 0:20:22.640 --> 0:20:26.840 be in that perspective of a person that is doing 0:20:26.960 --> 0:20:31.000 such egregious wrong over and over again. To build on that, 0:20:31.200 --> 0:20:33.440 Melissa too, it's like it's so interesting that he has 0:20:33.680 --> 0:20:38.080 issues with anger and then in moments where he feels 0:20:38.119 --> 0:20:40.760 like he can't control the fact that he has to 0:20:40.840 --> 0:20:43.439 like speak up and speak out and get angry. In 0:20:43.520 --> 0:20:47.240 every instance that he should speak up, he doesn't. So 0:20:47.280 --> 0:20:53.240 it's like this bizarre, not bizarre, but upsetting shitty person 0:20:53.600 --> 0:20:55.719 who like can't keep a lid on it when he 0:20:55.760 --> 0:20:59.359 feels like righteously wronged and like it is so angry 0:20:59.440 --> 0:21:01.960 and is so fucked up. But then when he should 0:21:02.000 --> 0:21:05.680 speak up, he just he got his huge He can't. 0:21:05.760 --> 0:21:08.360 He can't say anything. Mark Gruffalo, that's your secret. You're 0:21:08.400 --> 0:21:15.879 always angry. That is the reason that he was casting 0:21:15.880 --> 0:21:28.159 this role. He's always angry. He said that in that movie. 0:21:29.440 --> 0:21:32.040 You're listening to Popcorn book Club for My Heart Radio 0:21:32.119 --> 0:21:40.160 and we'll be back right after the break. Okay, we're 0:21:40.200 --> 0:21:45.280 back with Popcorn book Club. Melissa Awker point that it 0:21:45.400 --> 0:21:50.199 is from uh Tom Dominic's perspective is so fascinating that 0:21:50.280 --> 0:21:52.720 like we have to read between the lines to get 0:21:52.720 --> 0:21:55.399 the real story sometimes where it's like ms of Ralph, 0:21:56.200 --> 0:21:59.600 Ralph drink water. When we find out later Um that 0:21:59.720 --> 0:22:03.320 Wall the police were staking out the home that he 0:22:03.400 --> 0:22:06.280 was living in, that they found that he had been 0:22:06.320 --> 0:22:09.560 a victim of like child pornography since he was at 0:22:09.600 --> 0:22:13.399 ten by Dell and Del's wife, Um that he was 0:22:13.480 --> 0:22:16.080 living there and he was being exploited. They're just like 0:22:16.280 --> 0:22:19.520 Dominic Uh and Leo are just like, wow, we're sort 0:22:19.520 --> 0:22:23.879 of heroes. That's crazy. But there's not the adequate level 0:22:23.960 --> 0:22:28.320 of like empathy and understanding of this trauma, because like 0:22:28.640 --> 0:22:32.560 Dominic is fundamentally narcissistic in his own tragedy, Like he 0:22:32.640 --> 0:22:36.200 has such a tragic life that he has like horse 0:22:36.240 --> 0:22:39.440 blinders on. The same could be said for that moment 0:22:39.440 --> 0:22:41.840 when he finds out about joy and sad, like he 0:22:41.960 --> 0:22:47.080 kind of just glosses over that reveal as well that 0:22:47.080 --> 0:22:50.760 that's not an upsetting thing that like her uncle has 0:22:50.840 --> 0:22:55.320 groomed her, and he's just like, oh, well, that's one 0:22:55.359 --> 0:22:59.520 problem out of my life right now. Right She was like, 0:22:59.600 --> 0:23:02.200 he does don't want to have that baby, so it's 0:23:02.240 --> 0:23:06.679 super convenient. I know, it's unfortunately it kind of worked 0:23:06.680 --> 0:23:09.760 out for him. He doesn't have to have this baby 0:23:09.760 --> 0:23:11.919 with this woman who he has made it very clear 0:23:12.320 --> 0:23:15.919 he doesn't even really seem to like very much now um, 0:23:15.960 --> 0:23:18.520 and she just disappeared and he doesn't have to worry 0:23:18.520 --> 0:23:20.960 about it. He doesn't even have to, Like, basically, I 0:23:21.480 --> 0:23:24.919 don't think that Dominic has like any kind of handle 0:23:25.000 --> 0:23:28.000 on what it means for a woman to consent. Um. 0:23:28.440 --> 0:23:31.520 I I do not think that is something that really 0:23:32.200 --> 0:23:36.800 factors into his understanding of the female experience. UM. It 0:23:36.920 --> 0:23:41.000 does not married him after he raped her. I think, UM, 0:23:41.040 --> 0:23:43.960 at the very least, if if your boyfriend rates you, 0:23:43.960 --> 0:23:47.879 you should break up with him. At the very least least. 0:23:48.720 --> 0:23:51.399 I had texted Karama about this, but I found it 0:23:51.560 --> 0:23:56.159 very upsetting that rape of doesn't happened, and Dominic is 0:23:56.240 --> 0:23:59.399 only upset insofar as he's like, oh no, I've ruined 0:23:59.440 --> 0:24:02.320 that relation, and yeah, he does not feel guilty at all. 0:24:02.560 --> 0:24:06.240 And then the next chapter, in like two two sentences, 0:24:06.280 --> 0:24:08.280 they're like, yeah, doesn't I made up and we went 0:24:08.359 --> 0:24:13.280 for a drive. We talked about what already that just 0:24:13.400 --> 0:24:16.240 destroyed me about that was Jessa talks about how safety 0:24:16.359 --> 0:24:20.000 feels with them, how she felt really safe with and 0:24:20.920 --> 0:24:25.920 I clearly they gone over it in a mysterious car ride, 0:24:26.040 --> 0:24:29.520 but that must have just sattered that for her. Yeah, 0:24:29.640 --> 0:24:32.880 because up until that moment to the description of their 0:24:32.880 --> 0:24:36.000 relationship when they first started dating. First started dating is 0:24:36.080 --> 0:24:38.679 like my ideal high school college dream, which is like 0:24:39.359 --> 0:24:41.560 the person that you're dating is home alone in their 0:24:41.560 --> 0:24:44.600 beautiful house and you're just like going over to sleep 0:24:44.640 --> 0:24:47.040 with them and like swim in their pool. I was like, 0:24:47.080 --> 0:24:49.480 this is oh my god, Yes, Dominic, I can have 0:24:49.560 --> 0:24:53.240 related to this, like dream dating sequence. Yeah, it felt 0:24:53.280 --> 0:24:57.480 like the first third of a romantic comedy like wonderful. 0:24:57.720 --> 0:25:01.199 And then they had been me cute at the bar. Yeah, 0:25:01.240 --> 0:25:07.160 that was very that was really annoyingly sweet, like and 0:25:07.160 --> 0:25:08.879 and then he fell in love with her there on 0:25:08.960 --> 0:25:14.640 the um lifeguard station. It did feel like Wally did 0:25:14.640 --> 0:25:18.520 a good job. I think of dropping hints though quickly, 0:25:18.960 --> 0:25:22.400 of how possessive and dangerous he was going to be 0:25:22.440 --> 0:25:25.840 in that relationship, of like being mad that she wanted 0:25:25.880 --> 0:25:30.320 a job and refusing to understand that because all he 0:25:30.359 --> 0:25:33.880 wanted was time with her and not wanting other men 0:25:34.040 --> 0:25:38.200