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Speaker 1: Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where we're enjoying

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Speaker 1: a little lull between weekends of sports watching to give

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Speaker 1: the dent in our couch and break catch up on

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Speaker 1: some nonsports errands and life stuff.

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Speaker 2: And what's that?

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Speaker 1: There are five NWSL games tonight and the pwahel takeover

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Speaker 1: to her game in Chicago.

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Speaker 3: That's it, y'all breaks over.

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Speaker 1: It's Wednesday, March twenty fifth, and on today's show, we're

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Speaker 1: skipping the need to know and getting straight to my

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Speaker 1: conversation with author, advice columnist and the host of the

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Speaker 1: new iheartwomen's sports podcast Mind Over Mountain.

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Speaker 3: Cheryl Strait.

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Speaker 1: Yes, that Cheryl Strad, who's one thousand mile hike on

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Speaker 1: the Pacific Press Trail resulted in the international best selling

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Speaker 1: book Wild that was later adapted into the twenty fourteen

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Speaker 1: Academy Award nominated film of the same name. We had

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Speaker 1: a lovely, wide ranging conversation about everything from how her

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Speaker 1: experiences in high school track and cross country were what

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Speaker 1: allowed her to express herself as a teenager, to the

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Speaker 1: way she continues to be inspired by women doing hard

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Speaker 1: things with their bodies.

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Speaker 3: To the story she hopes to tell on her new show.

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Speaker 1: We also talked about some of the best and worst

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Speaker 1: advice she's given under her alias Sugar.

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Speaker 2: That interview is coming up right after this. Joining us now.

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Speaker 1: She's an author, advice columnist, lecturer, essayist, wise woman with

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Speaker 1: two capital w's, and the host of the new iHeart

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Speaker 1: women's sports podcast Mind Over Mountain. She's written four books,

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Speaker 1: the novel Torch and nonfiction works Tiny Beautiful Things, Brave Enough,

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Speaker 1: and Wild From Lost to Found on the Pacific Crest Trail,

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Speaker 1: which was an international bestseller later adapted into the twenty

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Speaker 1: fourteen Academy Award nominated film Wild starring Reese Witherspoon. Tiny

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Speaker 1: Beautiful Things inspired a play starring Nina Bardolas, a TV

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Speaker 1: show starring Katherine Hahn, two different podcasts for The New

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Speaker 1: York Times, and is a go to source for advice

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Speaker 1: given by Yours Truly using copy pasted quotes and screen

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Speaker 1: grabs texted to friends. There is a ten foot bronze

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Speaker 1: statue of her in New York State. It's Cheryl Strade Hi.

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Speaker 3: Cheryl, Oh my gosh, okay. The only thing I'm going

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Speaker 3: equival with is wise and in capital letters? Can we

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Speaker 3: put them lower case? I? Mean, I'm a writer. I'm

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Speaker 3: so sorry I have to writing its revision.

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Speaker 2: So no, I'm so sorry.

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Speaker 1: You will forever be a wise woman and you continue

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Speaker 1: to prove it daily, so until we remove that title

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Speaker 1: for you, which, as it turns out, some very popular

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Speaker 1: people have had their titles removed in the last few

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Speaker 1: years when they revealed themselves to be dumbasses and assholes,

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Speaker 1: so that might happen, But for now, I'm so sorry

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Speaker 1: you will.

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Speaker 3: Have to have two capital I just I want to

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Speaker 3: note the dispute, but I but I will, I'll try

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Speaker 3: to live up to it, just for this episode of

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Speaker 3: this parture. Sarah, I'm so thrilled to be with you

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Speaker 3: because you know, you are just a hero to me

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Speaker 3: and such a delight, and you have forged a pass

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Speaker 3: nice for so many of us in this in this

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Speaker 3: area of women's sports and in general. So thank you

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Speaker 3: for inviting me to be really nice.

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Speaker 1: Well, this is going to be a mutual admiration society then,

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Speaker 1: because I'm so excited to have you on the show.

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Speaker 1: I'm so excited to invite you to the IRT Women's

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Speaker 1: Sports family.

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Speaker 2: Welcome aboard.

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Speaker 3: Thank you.

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Speaker 2: I want to hear about mind over Mountain.

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Speaker 1: A couple episodes in me about the stories that you

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Speaker 1: want to highlight with this show.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, the reason that I wanted to do this

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Speaker 3: is that all my life I have been informed and

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Speaker 3: transformed and changed and inspired and emboldened and empowered by

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Speaker 3: women doing hard things with their bodies. And you know,

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Speaker 3: obviously in my book Wild, when I wrote about my

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Speaker 3: hike on the Pacific Crest Trail, it's very much a

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Speaker 3: story about a physically challenging thing. It's also a story

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Speaker 3: about an emotionally challenging thing, about grief and the inner

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Speaker 3: struggle that happens when you do something difficult like carry

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Speaker 3: a heavy pack or walk a trail. And I think

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Speaker 3: that I could do that, and I because I had

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Speaker 3: seen so many women athletes of all varieties modeling that

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Speaker 3: kind of endurance and persistence, and so I really wanted

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Speaker 3: to kind of bring those two things together in Mind

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Speaker 3: Over Mountain, this new podcast where I do have conversations

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Speaker 3: with women athletes about their sport and about the hard

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Speaker 3: things they do physically and how they train and what

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Speaker 3: it's like to step up to that bar or run

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Speaker 3: that race, or swim that mile or five hundred miles

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Speaker 3: or whatever it is. But then I also want to

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Speaker 3: know the inner journeys they've been on to get there,

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Speaker 3: the barriers they've faced in both sport and life. And

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Speaker 3: because I don't think those things are separate, you know,

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Speaker 3: I have a kind of ancient perspective. I think of

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Speaker 3: athleticism and sport and it is always it is always

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Speaker 3: both an interior and an exterior struggle.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm fascinated to listen because I think, particularly if

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Speaker 1: you end up talking to a lot of those who

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Speaker 1: pursue individual feats, whether that's marathon running or distance running,

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Speaker 1: whether that's mountain climbing, whether you know it's weightlifting, like

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Speaker 1: your first guest, there is something very particular to those

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Speaker 1: things that I feel like is internal in a different

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Speaker 1: way than people who thrive in something like a team

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Speaker 1: sport of basketball. When I talk to my friend who

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Speaker 1: does the ultra marathons, like there's something in there that

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Speaker 1: you're trying to get to when you're out there.

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Speaker 2: She just did one.

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Speaker 1: Hundred mile race or something, and that ran the first

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Speaker 1: eighty miles without even headphones or music or talking to anyone.

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Speaker 2: Right, I'm like, something's going on.

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Speaker 1: In there that you're shaking out of you when you

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Speaker 1: do that, So I trust you to be the person

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Speaker 1: who dives in and finds out some of that stuff.

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Speaker 1: You're also going to do a little bit of Deer Sugar,

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Speaker 1: inviting guests to help you answer a letter.

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Speaker 2: We'll get to Deer Sugar later because I'm such a huge.

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Speaker 1: Fan, but I want to ask in your life what

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Speaker 1: your relationship to sports has been. Were you ever an

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Speaker 1: athlete or were you always sort of admiring from afar?

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Speaker 3: I was always an athlete, and yet I was always

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Speaker 3: an athlete in that way that I think doesn't get

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Speaker 3: a lot of, you know, external credit. I was never

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Speaker 3: a competitive athlete who could say like and then I was,

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Speaker 3: you know, I run, I won the regionals, you know,

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Speaker 3: and then I went to State and then I you know,

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Speaker 3: went on scholarship to college, like you have that kind

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Speaker 3: of past. And but I think, like so many of us,

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Speaker 3: and this is also something I really want to speak

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Speaker 3: to on Mind of a Mountain, because I do think

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Speaker 3: that obviously, you know, there are the champions among us,

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Speaker 3: and I will them on the show, and I'm fascinated

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Speaker 3: by those people who who are are working at that

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Speaker 3: top level. But I think what most of us relate

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Speaker 3: to is you know, those struggles that we have. I

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Speaker 3: was a runner in high school. I was on the

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Speaker 3: track and cross country team, and I would say that

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Speaker 3: it it It's the one thing in my teen years

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Speaker 3: that actually sort of saved me. It was probably the

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Speaker 3: only way, the only arena in which I felt I

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Speaker 3: was truly expressing the truth of who I was inside. I,

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Speaker 3: like a lot of teenagers, you know, I was obsessed.

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Speaker 3: I was obsessed with being loved and accepted. And for

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Speaker 3: me and my generation, I mean, let's face it, probably

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Speaker 3: for all the generations of girls and women that meant

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Speaker 3: you know, being like, you know, affirmed, like being considered

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Speaker 3: pretty or skinny, or all of those things that I

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Speaker 3: all for my teen years really flirted with an eating disorder.

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Speaker 3: I wouldn't say I had an eating disorder. I had

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Speaker 3: a dysfunctional eating because I was, you know, I wanted

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Speaker 3: to be pretty. And with running, I think it really

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Speaker 3: saved me from it because I wanted to be a

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Speaker 3: good long distance runner and I needed to feed myself.

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Speaker 3: And that was really a time when I think I

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Speaker 3: kind of turned a corner psychologically where I was like, Okay,

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Speaker 3: what is more important to me being strong, or having

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Speaker 3: the body that whatever ridiculous society, you know, the society

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Speaker 3: we live in, the patriarchy, says I need to have.

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Speaker 3: And then all through my life, you know, in my

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Speaker 3: adult life, I've continued to run and of course hike

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Speaker 3: very central part of my life. And I also have

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Speaker 3: been a weight lifter off and on, but the last

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Speaker 3: couple of years in a more serious way, a more

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Speaker 3: dedicated way, and so yeah, I've always been doing something Sarah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Well it's interesting too that I think there's certain advice

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Speaker 1: that we hear throughout life, and it becomes almost so

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Speaker 1: regular and vague ish that we don't listen to it.

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Speaker 1: And one of them is the actual health benefits of

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Speaker 1: moving your body in a way that isn't about losing

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Speaker 1: weight or even cardiovascular it's literally allowing your systems to

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Speaker 1: reset your stress regulation, your of course, like all those things,

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Speaker 1: and you went through a lot. We're going to get

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Speaker 1: to you later in your life, and I imagine maybe

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Speaker 1: you aren't even fully aware of how much healing it

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Speaker 1: was doing to move your body and to run. It

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Speaker 1: was resetting you every time you went out to move

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Speaker 1: from whatever was going on back home or whatever you

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Speaker 1: were struggling with and I wish we could do a

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Speaker 1: better job of telling young people about that benefit. I

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Speaker 1: think we sometimes hear exercise is good for you, and

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Speaker 1: it's like, okay, keep it moving, But there's so much

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Speaker 1: to it. I'm obsessed with the body keeps the score.

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Speaker 1: I think if everybody read it, it would just change the world.

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Speaker 1: There's so much in there about that.

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Speaker 3: Well, now I want to say this. I mean, I

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Speaker 3: think that exercise, you know, really needs a rebranding because

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Speaker 3: I feel like we completely have misunderstood what exercise is.

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Speaker 3: For one thing, you know, it's so tied it's so

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Speaker 3: linked to weight loss, and if you just go do

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Speaker 3: like a minute of research about this, you will find

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Speaker 3: is exercise is actually not a significant driver of weight loss.

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Speaker 3: I hate to break it to you, folks. It's an

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Speaker 3: important factor of a healthy life, and it's an important

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Speaker 3: factor in you know, metabolic health, don't get me wrong.

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Speaker 3: And it's incredibly important for our mental health as well.

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Speaker 3: You know, exercise is like the magic pill. If if

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Speaker 3: it could be prescribed as a pill, every doctor would

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Speaker 3: have all of us on it. And but you know,

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Speaker 3: we have tied it so much to this ridiculous weight

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Speaker 3: loss bullshit? Am I allowed to say that bullshit on

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Speaker 3: your show? That it's just you know, I think that

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Speaker 3: it's really been sort of misunderstood in a profound way.

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Speaker 3: And you're right. When I was a teenager, I didn't

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Speaker 3: know how much running was good for me, and just psychologically,

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Speaker 3: we know now that it decreases you know, it's a

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Speaker 3: great medication for depression and anxiety and anything that ails you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's so true.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I wonder if you considered yourself an athlete

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Speaker 1: when you first embarked on the hike that inspired why

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Speaker 1: you were by yourself over a thousand miles.

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Speaker 2: On this trail.

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Speaker 1: Did you think, like, well, I'm an athlete, I can

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Speaker 1: do this, or was it so necessary to go somewhere

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Speaker 1: that you didn't even really think about whether you were capable.

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Speaker 3: I definitely did not meet the profile I'm an athlete.

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Speaker 3: I mean, you know, in addition to just basically, you know,

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Speaker 3: being pretty out of shape. You know, at that moment

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Speaker 3: that I set out on the trail, the year or

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Speaker 3: two that preceded that were some of the most difficult

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Speaker 3: years of my life. My mother had died suddenly of cancer,

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Speaker 3: and I had gotten involved with drugs I had. I mean,

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Speaker 3: the last time I used heroin was a few days

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Speaker 3: before I set out on the Pacific Crest Trail, which

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Speaker 3: is a shocking and unfortunate fact, but it is a fact.

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Speaker 3: And I just knew to trust. I mean, I did

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Speaker 3: trust my body when I decided to hike the trail,

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Speaker 3: because I knew I was lost. I knew I was

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Speaker 3: in a dark place, and I knew that the thing

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Speaker 3: that the two things that made me feel whole where

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Speaker 3: the wilderness. You know, I'd grown up in the woods

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Speaker 3: of northern Minnesota. I knew that felt like a place

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Speaker 3: that restored me to myself and engaging with something physical

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Speaker 3: that was hard, and I didn't know how profound that

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Speaker 3: would be actually, because to be honest with you, really,

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Speaker 3: the body was kind of like the athleticism of the

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Speaker 3: hike was secondary to me. I was shocked when I

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Speaker 3: went out there by how hard it was, because I

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Speaker 3: was like, I can walk, no problem all, It's just

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Speaker 3: walking now, Yeah, no big deal. And then you know,

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Speaker 3: it's a different thing to be carrying an incredibly heavy

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Speaker 3: pack and to be in the wilderness, in that mountainous terrain,

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Speaker 3: and it was so much harder than I thought it

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Speaker 3: would be, And you know, I went out there thinking,

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Speaker 3: this is going to be an emotional processing journey. This

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Speaker 3: is going to be I'll be inside my mind, I'll

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Speaker 3: be crying, I'll be you know, all of that stuff.

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Speaker 3: And in fact, what I forgot about all those feelings,

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Speaker 3: didn't realize that's exactly what I needed, And it was

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Speaker 3: all about the body. It was how do I keep

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Speaker 3: going because this really hurts and I'm really tired, and

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Speaker 3: I don't think I'm strong enough to take another step

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Speaker 3: or lift this path. And I was wrong about that.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting how for those who are in their heads,

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Speaker 1: it pulls you to the present of what am I

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Speaker 1: feeling in my body right now and feeling embodied in

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Speaker 1: that moment instead of wherever your mind is trying to

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Speaker 1: take you in the past or anxiety about the future.

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Speaker 1: You've inspired a lot of people to embark on similar journeys.

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Speaker 1: I don't have proof of a direct line between Cheryl

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Speaker 1: straight and wild to the hikes that have become sort

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Speaker 1: of particularly popular for self discovery on TikTok, like the

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Speaker 1: Camino de Santiago trail in Spain.

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Speaker 2: There's a lot of tiktoks. I have a friend who's done.

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Speaker 1: A couple of these where people really want to go

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Speaker 1: because they're told this is a place to have a

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Speaker 1: solitary journey and to move your body well while thinking

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Speaker 1: through what you want.

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Speaker 2: Out of your life.

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Speaker 1: Do you still hear from readers, even a dozen plus

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Speaker 1: years later, that have decided to turn themselves into explorers

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Speaker 1: because of you?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there is not a day. There is not a

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Speaker 3: day that passes that I don't hear from people all

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Speaker 3: over the world and all these different languages. Wild is

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Speaker 3: in forty some languages, and it is profound and beautiful,

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Speaker 3: and Sarah, I want to tell you you use that

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Speaker 3: word explorer, and I want to cast that net really

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Speaker 3: wide because some of the most moving emails and letters

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Speaker 3: I've received in messages are from people who didn't go

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Speaker 3: on some wilderness trail. They said things like, I was

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Speaker 3: always afraid to go for a walk by myself in

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Speaker 3: the town where I live, and because of you, I

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Speaker 3: started doing that and I first just went for like

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Speaker 3: fifteen minutes, and then now every day I walk five

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Speaker 3: miles by myself and it has restored me to myself

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Speaker 3: and I feel so much stronger and braver. And it's

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Speaker 3: because I read your book and I thought you were

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Speaker 3: crazy to go do that by yourself. And I thought

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Speaker 3: if you could do that, I could too. And you know,

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Speaker 3: that is to me the highest honor ever because I

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Speaker 3: think that is you know, people always like what's the

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Speaker 3: message of I'm like, there's no message, Like I wrote

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Speaker 3: the book and you take the message. But I do

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Speaker 3: think that that's like, I think that's the message for

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Speaker 3: me too, of like what I love about sports. You know,

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Speaker 3: I don't think that I am like you know, Serena

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Speaker 3: Williams or fill in the blank, all these champions, but

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Speaker 3: there's the essence of like what they are expressing and

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Speaker 3: the things they do in their athletic endeavors. Like I

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Speaker 3: do see some resonance with the ordinary people who say, like, Okay,

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Speaker 3: well it's really hard for me to run a mile

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Speaker 3: because I'm out of shape, but I'm going to do it.

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Speaker 3: And that is that is such a victory. I'm so

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Speaker 3: inspired by that.

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Speaker 1: We're going to take a break more with Cheryl's trade

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Speaker 1: right after this. You know, I want to talk about

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Speaker 1: a week or so before Wilde was named to Oprah's

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Speaker 1: Book Club, and what did you dream of or imagine

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Speaker 1: for yourself.

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Speaker 2: How did your life change in the weeks that followed.

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Speaker 1: And I'm particularly interested in this because I talked to

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Speaker 1: a lot of very successful women, and especially in their

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Speaker 1: fifties and sixties and even later. They all say, I

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Speaker 1: should have taken bigger swings. I should have dreamed bigger,

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Speaker 1: I should have thought of myself as being able to

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Speaker 1: do bigger things. It took me longer than it should

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Speaker 1: have because I was limiting myself. And so I try

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Speaker 1: to project that onto younger women. And I wonder for

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Speaker 1: you what you thought was possible before Oprah gave you

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Speaker 1: a call.

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Speaker 3: Well, listen, I always took big swings, that is, you

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Speaker 3: know I have been. I was born ambitious. I've been

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Speaker 3: a feminist since I learned the definition of the word

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Speaker 3: when I was like five. If you asked me when

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Speaker 3: I was five what I wanted to be when I

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Speaker 3: grew up, I would answer with an absolutely straight face.

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Speaker 3: I was going to be the first woman president of

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Speaker 3: the United States. Me too, I know, me too.

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Speaker 1: I thought, I don't really want to do it, but

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Speaker 1: it's necessary, Like if there hasn't been one, I'll do it.

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Speaker 2: I'll take a.

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Speaker 3: Bullet for that. For the country Sarah, I listened to

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Speaker 3: your podcast, and I know this about you, and you

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Speaker 3: know you and I are are sisters in that way.

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Speaker 3: I have always been wildly ambitious and also condemned for it,

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Speaker 3: because you're not allowed to be that if you're a

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Speaker 3: girl or a woman, and certainly you weren't in my generation.

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Speaker 3: So as a young writer, I mean I grew up

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Speaker 3: in poverty. I grew up without you know, any sort

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Speaker 3: of anyone's talking to me about college or being like,

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Speaker 3: you know, you could be great things. Never once had

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Speaker 3: any lessons in my life, you know, all of my youth,

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Speaker 3: the only thing I could join were the sports at

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Speaker 3: my public school. But I was ambitious. I wanted to

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Speaker 3: be a great writer. And all through my twenties I

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Speaker 3: worked as a waitress, I worked all these different jobs,

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Speaker 3: and I wrote very seriously. And you know, by the

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Speaker 3: time Wild came out, Well was my second book, I

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Speaker 3: was actually a successful writer. Now, what successful writer means

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Speaker 3: in America is different than what most people not in

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Speaker 3: the literary world. That doesn't mean he was a famous

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Speaker 3: and rich writer. I was somebody who was known in

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Speaker 3: my literary orbit. I was somebody who had achieved, you know,

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Speaker 3: I had been published and published well, and you know,

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Speaker 3: my dreams had what I'm trying to say to you is,

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Speaker 3: by the time Wild came out, my dreams had come true.

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Speaker 3: So Wild comes out and the first week it's out,

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Speaker 3: now Oprah hasn't called yet. The first week it's out,

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Speaker 3: it's number seven on the New York Times bestseller list,

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Speaker 3: so amazing. Right there, I was like, nothing good ever

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Speaker 3: has to happen to be professionally again, I'm like set right,

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Speaker 3: I mean, I was just like really, and I'm not joking,

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Speaker 3: like I'm serious. That was like, wow, that is a lot.

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Speaker 3: That is enough. And then about three weeks Wild had

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Speaker 3: been out for three weeks it had fulfilled every dream

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Speaker 3: I'd ever had came true. And then myself on rang

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Speaker 3: and it was Oprah. Now that was like the book

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Speaker 3: got served like a triple shot of espressso and then

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Speaker 3: it went to number one. And you know, by then,

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Speaker 3: already before the book came out, Reese had optioned it

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Speaker 3: for film, and you know, just all the good things happened.

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Speaker 3: And I think that what was really so good for

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Speaker 3: me is that that I already had a really solid

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Speaker 3: sense of who I was. I already knew I had

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Speaker 3: taken every big swing, and I took the swings where

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Speaker 3: the swings counted, which wasn't in the Can I please

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Speaker 3: be rich and famous and get everyone to love me

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Speaker 3: and affirm me. It was in the work. It was

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Speaker 3: in the work, and Wild would be the same book

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Speaker 3: whether it became an international bestseller or not, and I

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Speaker 3: could be proud of the work I did. And that

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Speaker 3: is the only mark of excellence. And I think that's

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Speaker 3: true in sport, or in art, or in life.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, as someone who wrote a book that was not

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Speaker 1: on the New York Times bestseller list, yet, I have

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Speaker 1: had to tell myself that it's about the work that

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Speaker 1: I did in the book that came out, and not

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Speaker 1: whether or not everybody in their mom read it.

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Speaker 2: Yet.

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Speaker 1: You know you mentioned having gone through poverty and struggles

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Speaker 1: early in life. Honestly, it feels like you have lived

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Speaker 1: many lives, an outsized amount of pain and heartbreak and

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Speaker 1: unusually a large dose of struggle, going through sexual abuse,

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Speaker 1: drug use, the sudden death of your mom at such

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Speaker 1: a young age. All of these things sort of forged

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Speaker 1: a sort of strength and wisdom goes to that WW

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Speaker 1: capital W wise woman that.

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Speaker 2: I talked about.

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Speaker 1: It was very hard earned, though, and you've spun a

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Speaker 1: lot of gold out of the tough things you've been handed.

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Speaker 1: And I one of your dear sugar pieces of advice

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Speaker 1: that I've shared a lot was you were writing back

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Speaker 1: to a man whose son was killed by a drunk driver,

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Speaker 1: and you setting, in part quote the strange and painful

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Speaker 1: truth is that I'm a better person because I lost

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Speaker 1: my mom young. You also said your son was your

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Speaker 1: greatest gift in his life, and he is your greatest

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Speaker 1: gift in his death too.

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Speaker 2: Receive it.

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Speaker 1: Let your dead boy be your most profound revelation, create

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Speaker 1: something of him, make it beautiful. And I wonder if

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Speaker 1: that's sort of always been your approach to dealing with

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Speaker 1: the pain of life, is find a way to make

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Speaker 1: it beautiful so it's not just painful.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, I mean, I think that that is that is

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Speaker 3: our mission here, because you know, as you listed off

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Speaker 3: those bad luck things, and and there have been plenty

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Speaker 3: of them, and even some that you haven't that you

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Speaker 3: didn't list. The whole time, what I was thinking is,

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Speaker 3: and oh my goodness, I have had so many unbelievably

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Speaker 3: wonderful and good things happen to me. I have had

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Speaker 3: the great fortune of so much luck and love and

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Speaker 3: opportunity and kindness and generosity. And I think that the

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Speaker 3: greatest thing we can do in terms of evolving ourselves

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Speaker 3: emotionally is to see to see the whole picture, to

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Speaker 3: see the hard things and the suffering, and embrace them

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Speaker 3: to the extent that we can bear, to embrace them,

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Speaker 3: and and to never forget how lucky we are in

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Speaker 3: so many ways too, and that life, you know, life

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Speaker 3: is beauty and life is suffering, and life is love

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Speaker 3: and life is lost. And we all get that. And

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Speaker 3: some people get more of one or the other over

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Speaker 3: the long haul, but most of us get a bit

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Speaker 3: of both. And the decisions we make about how to,

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Speaker 3: you know, how to handle both of those things, you know,

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Speaker 3: basically define us. And you know, I really think about,

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Speaker 3: especially with grief, and what I was saying to that

437
00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:06,040
Speaker 3: man who lost his son, is the way we can

438
00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:08,399
Speaker 3: honor the people we love and who loved us the

439
00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:11,120
Speaker 3: most is to be the people who they loved into being.

440
00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:14,960
Speaker 3: You know, if I ruined my life because I lost

441
00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:17,800
Speaker 3: my mom, would that be an honor or a dishonor

442
00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:22,000
Speaker 3: to my mother? And you know I have gone about

443
00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:27,119
Speaker 3: it wildly, ambitiously, you know. And what's crazy to me now, Sarah,

444
00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:31,040
Speaker 3: is you know, wild people around the world know my

445
00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:34,280
Speaker 3: mother's name. They say my mother's name to me, they

446
00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:37,359
Speaker 3: say Bobby to me. It's also my daughter's name. And

447
00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:39,920
Speaker 3: you know, I can't bring her back, but I can

448
00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:42,240
Speaker 3: bring her into being through the light of my life

449
00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:44,960
Speaker 3: and the light of my work. And I've done that.

450
00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:47,800
Speaker 3: And I think that in as many ways as we

451
00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:52,640
Speaker 3: can do that with our losses, we can shine more

452
00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:54,120
Speaker 3: brightly than we would otherwise.

453
00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:56,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think part of your wisdom is

454
00:21:57,280 --> 00:21:59,080
Speaker 1: and I think it's a gift. I think it's very

455
00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:01,320
Speaker 1: natural for many of us to have a natural gratitude

456
00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:04,639
Speaker 1: and an attitude about how to be as obsessed with

457
00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:06,439
Speaker 1: the good things that have happened to us as we

458
00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:08,960
Speaker 1: are concerned with the bad things. But I think that's

459
00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:12,680
Speaker 1: part of your wisdom. My friend Glennan Doyle calls life brutiful.

460
00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:14,840
Speaker 1: It's brutal and it's beautiful, and you have to figure

461
00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:17,560
Speaker 1: out how to hold both. I think being wise is

462
00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:19,680
Speaker 1: sort of a funny thing. You and glennin fall into

463
00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:22,480
Speaker 1: the category of the capital w's. It's sort of something

464
00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:24,800
Speaker 1: I think you can know about yourself, but others need

465
00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:27,080
Speaker 1: to tell you that you're wise in order to make

466
00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:27,920
Speaker 1: it really.

467
00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:30,000
Speaker 2: So, Like I think it's like being funny.

468
00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:31,840
Speaker 1: I think it's fine if people say I'm really good

469
00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:33,719
Speaker 1: at math or I'm great at history. But as soon

470
00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:36,159
Speaker 1: as you're like, I'm very funny or I'm very wise,

471
00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:37,960
Speaker 1: people are sort of like, well, hold on.

472
00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:40,200
Speaker 2: It's kind of like giving yourself a nickname, like that's

473
00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:40,760
Speaker 2: not allowed.

474
00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:43,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I wonder when you knew that you were

475
00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:46,120
Speaker 1: wise and when the world told.

476
00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:46,760
Speaker 2: You that they agreed.

477
00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:51,679
Speaker 3: I think it's interesting because I was even as a

478
00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:53,639
Speaker 3: young woman, I was always people would say, you know,

479
00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:56,960
Speaker 3: you're mature for your age and not just like skaggy

480
00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:58,320
Speaker 3: guys who are trying to date me, which is what

481
00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:00,960
Speaker 3: they always But no, I mean.

482
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:03,159
Speaker 2: It meant you had big tips. I got it too.

483
00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:06,800
Speaker 3: No, she seems older than you this and I'm like, no,

484
00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:10,960
Speaker 3: she looks nineteen to me. But but I you know,

485
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:14,600
Speaker 3: people would friends would say that, just you know, in conversations.

486
00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:18,000
Speaker 3: And I think part of it is the writer in me.

487
00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:21,199
Speaker 3: You know, the writer's job is to to pay attention

488
00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:25,320
Speaker 3: and to understand the human condition. And I was always

489
00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:29,359
Speaker 3: the most curious about our emotional inner lives, the lives

490
00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:33,399
Speaker 3: that we don't necessarily say out loud or show, the

491
00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:35,639
Speaker 3: lives in fact that we try to conceal. And that

492
00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:38,840
Speaker 3: has been my lifelong study. And so I think that

493
00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:41,480
Speaker 3: that helps in the wisdom department. But I also want

494
00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:43,880
Speaker 3: to just say I agree with you, like I can

495
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:46,800
Speaker 3: say to you genuinely, like I do not think I'm

496
00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:49,639
Speaker 3: I'm wiser than anyone else. I think that I have

497
00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:55,040
Speaker 3: spent a lot of time cultivating, listening to those deep, dark,

498
00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:58,960
Speaker 3: truest voices inside myself and in the things I see

499
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:01,760
Speaker 3: and perceive in other people. And I mean, I would

500
00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:04,680
Speaker 3: say when Deer Sugar became it had this cult following

501
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,480
Speaker 3: online before the Book of Tiny Beautiful Things was published,

502
00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:10,160
Speaker 3: and you know, people really were starting to come at

503
00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:11,679
Speaker 3: me like I was some kind of guru, and I

504
00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:15,400
Speaker 3: was like, absolutely not. There were so many opportunities that

505
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:19,080
Speaker 3: I turned down because they tried to establish me as

506
00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:22,679
Speaker 3: some kind of like higher being or and you know,

507
00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:25,399
Speaker 3: like that I would tell people what to do because

508
00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:28,560
Speaker 3: I was, you know, wiser than them, and I reject

509
00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:32,879
Speaker 3: that entirely. And the whole magic for me of doing

510
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:35,399
Speaker 3: my work as dear Sugar, is you know I call

511
00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:38,560
Speaker 3: it horizontal advice. I am down there with you, you

512
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:41,000
Speaker 3: and I, Sarah. If we went on a long walk,

513
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:43,320
Speaker 3: which I would love to do someday, you know, we

514
00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:45,879
Speaker 3: would talk and you would tell me all the stuff

515
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:48,600
Speaker 3: things in your life, and I would tell you all

516
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:51,160
Speaker 3: the things in my life, and we would help each

517
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:56,240
Speaker 3: other through the wisdom and also the bewilderment of those situations.

518
00:24:56,560 --> 00:25:00,240
Speaker 3: And that's where I think real real power life in

519
00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:03,000
Speaker 3: terms of like figuring out like the next step for

520
00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:04,120
Speaker 3: each of us.

521
00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:06,560
Speaker 1: Right and wisdom is like as much about knowing what

522
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:08,560
Speaker 1: you don't know as it is about what you do. Yeah,

523
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:12,400
Speaker 1: because that also informs the most curious approach to giving

524
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:14,520
Speaker 1: other people advice and understanding them is what do I

525
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:16,920
Speaker 1: not know about what you're going through? And how can

526
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:18,800
Speaker 1: that be a part of how I help you through it,

527
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:20,800
Speaker 1: as opposed to I know best all the time.

528
00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:23,639
Speaker 3: Well, And it's about asking questions, it really is. And

529
00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:26,919
Speaker 3: one thing I always say is, Sugar, is you know

530
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:29,720
Speaker 3: in my advice, I'm very often not telling you what

531
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:31,639
Speaker 3: to do. I'm telling you what you told me you

532
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:34,320
Speaker 3: wanted to do, But you're afraid to know that you

533
00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:38,080
Speaker 3: want it, so I'm listening. It's about listening and asking questions.

534
00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:41,240
Speaker 1: And you're often telling people ask yourself this. Yeah, you're

535
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:42,560
Speaker 1: not telling them what the answer is going to be.

536
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:44,959
Speaker 1: Just hey, what happens when you ask yourself this? And

537
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:47,200
Speaker 1: how might that lead you into the answers you're looking for.

538
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:50,080
Speaker 1: I'm wondering what the most common thing you're often asked

539
00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:52,800
Speaker 1: to offer advice about, like a topic that keeps coming back?

540
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:55,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, you know it is. That's a great question,

541
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:58,480
Speaker 3: because I mean, honestly, there are only about six or

542
00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:01,840
Speaker 3: seven questions in the whole universe. We only we only

543
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:04,520
Speaker 3: have a few problems. They could be, they can be

544
00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:07,879
Speaker 3: put into like buckets. And you know, one really common

545
00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:10,400
Speaker 3: one that I don't end up answering a lot because

546
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:13,320
Speaker 3: it's just it's almost an impossible thing to answer, you know.

547
00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:16,160
Speaker 3: And it boils down to will I ever find love?

548
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 3: A lot of people who are saying, you know, my

549
00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:21,760
Speaker 3: heart is broken so and so, and they go on

550
00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:23,920
Speaker 3: these long tangents of telling me that all the ins

551
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:26,199
Speaker 3: and outs of what happened, and they've been broken up

552
00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:28,680
Speaker 3: with and then now they're convinced that they'll never find

553
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:30,960
Speaker 3: love and they're unlovable or they've been single for a

554
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:33,639
Speaker 3: while and that hurts and they're lonely, and you know,

555
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:36,280
Speaker 3: how do I how do I find love? How do

556
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 3: I recover from a broken heart? And you know, essentially

557
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:41,920
Speaker 3: the answer is you just have to wait it out

558
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 3: and trust the process and you will be loved, you know.

559
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:49,800
Speaker 3: And but that that's definitely a very common one. And

560
00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:52,000
Speaker 3: the other one, I think what it really boils down to,

561
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:54,480
Speaker 3: And this one is one that I answer in a

562
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:57,880
Speaker 3: variety of ways. You know, on surface level, they seem

563
00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:02,359
Speaker 3: like they're different subjects, but they're always at core. Can

564
00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:07,720
Speaker 3: I want what I want? Can I trust myself? Can

565
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:11,640
Speaker 3: I can I decide to actually do what I want

566
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:14,240
Speaker 3: rather than what my parents want or my spouse once

567
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:16,359
Speaker 3: or I think society wants, or what would be the

568
00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:21,040
Speaker 3: you know, the expectations, expectations, And the answer is redded expectations.

569
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 3: The answer is always yes, yes, yeah, yeah.

570
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:27,240
Speaker 1: I always say I'm so grateful that my parents had

571
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:30,440
Speaker 1: big expectations for me, and they were non specific. Yeah,

572
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:32,960
Speaker 1: they were like, you're awesome, You're gonna do something great,

573
00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:34,119
Speaker 1: figure it out, what is it?

574
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 2: Go do it? Yeah, that's it.

575
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:37,800
Speaker 1: And I tell every parent that the worst thing you

576
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,719
Speaker 1: can do is to have extremely limited idea of what

577
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:44,320
Speaker 1: your child should be or want, because they will wrestle

578
00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:46,639
Speaker 1: with whether they're meeting that at every turn, even if

579
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:47,960
Speaker 1: you don't know it. You might not even know that

580
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,399
Speaker 1: you put that on them, and they might internalize it.

581
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:52,640
Speaker 1: But you got to be so careful about the path

582
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:54,960
Speaker 1: that you help them build and letting them find it

583
00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:55,639
Speaker 1: for themselves.

584
00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:58,080
Speaker 2: What do you think is the worst advice you've ever given.

585
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:04,679
Speaker 3: That's a great question. Hmm. You know, I think that

586
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:07,720
Speaker 3: back in the back in the days when I was

587
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:10,840
Speaker 3: just writing the Dear Sugar column online on the Rumpus,

588
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:15,040
Speaker 3: there were a couple of letters that maybe were from

589
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:19,199
Speaker 3: people who like were parenting teens or young adults. And

590
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:21,320
Speaker 3: at the time that I was writing those, my kids

591
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:24,440
Speaker 3: were in the like young and and oh my god, Mom,

592
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:26,879
Speaker 3: we just adore you and everything you do is the

593
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:29,240
Speaker 3: best thing in the world phase, And so I was

594
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:31,440
Speaker 3: maybe a little a little more on my high horse

595
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:35,960
Speaker 3: than I would be now. Like it's hard, Like my

596
00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:38,240
Speaker 3: kids are now twenty and twenty one, and I'm I

597
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 3: have been humbled by the process of raising teenagers and

598
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:46,760
Speaker 3: it's a little trickier than than maybe, you know, I

599
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:49,479
Speaker 3: thought it would be. And yeah, I would have been

600
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 3: a little bit more like, oh, oh, dear heart, I

601
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:53,800
Speaker 3: know this is hard. Let us let's try.

602
00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 1: You know.

603
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:56,320
Speaker 3: I'd be like, you just have to, you know, talk

604
00:28:56,440 --> 00:29:01,720
Speaker 3: openly and you know, communicate your failings. And I'm like, okay, yeah,

605
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:04,320
Speaker 3: just zip them out the shide, you know. Yeah, if

606
00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:07,360
Speaker 3: you haven't parented a team, maybe maybe just sit in

607
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:10,680
Speaker 3: the corner and and call a friend, you know, bake it.

608
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:11,840
Speaker 2: Let me call a friend for this one.

609
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, like deliver some cookies, you know, and uh yeah,

610
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:15,760
Speaker 3: leave it at that.

611
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:19,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, is there something big You've changed your mind about

612
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:23,680
Speaker 1: some big moment or opinion or topic that's controversial and

613
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:26,800
Speaker 1: you realize looking back, like, wow, that's something I really

614
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:28,400
Speaker 1: felt differently about earlier in life.

615
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 3: Gosh, you know, I do think I'm a very I've

616
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:37,560
Speaker 3: always been a very curious person, and I'm I'm I'm

617
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 3: obsessed with like evidence based things. You know. I'm always like, well,

618
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:43,200
Speaker 3: what's the science of that? Or what are the like

619
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:47,440
Speaker 3: what is this? Actually? I guess what I'm I like facts, like,

620
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 3: you know, I do, and I seek them out. And

621
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:52,800
Speaker 3: so if I make an assumption about something like I

622
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:56,480
Speaker 3: will usually investigate it and really research it and and

623
00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:58,600
Speaker 3: I will change my mind. I can't think of anything

624
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:02,600
Speaker 3: where I've really like taken a shift. I've certainly been informed,

625
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:05,480
Speaker 3: but like there are a lot of things I didn't

626
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 3: know about that I know about now. But I will say,

627
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 3: you know, I have always been It's it's pretty interesting

628
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:13,240
Speaker 3: to me when I think about who I was as

629
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:16,600
Speaker 3: a young woman. As an undergraduate at the University of Minnesota,

630
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 3: I double majored in creative writing and women's studies. The

631
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:24,800
Speaker 3: two things, the two descriptors I would use for myself today, writer, feminist,

632
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:29,840
Speaker 3: you know. And so I have really been very much

633
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 3: a you know, on course, like I've stayed on that track.

634
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:37,040
Speaker 3: I will say, politically, I'm still an activist and I

635
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:38,680
Speaker 3: go out and hold signs in the street, and that

636
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:41,600
Speaker 3: feels good to me. I think, I think I do

637
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:47,160
Speaker 3: feel sadly like a little less idealistic, like, you know,

638
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 3: I'm like, I'm going to change the world, you know.

639
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:53,520
Speaker 3: And and what I guess the thing I would say

640
00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:57,000
Speaker 3: that's changed the most is I feel like changing the

641
00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 3: world looks maybe slightly differently than I thought it would.

642
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:00,640
Speaker 1: You know that.

643
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 3: To me, I do feel like I've made an impact.

644
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:05,240
Speaker 3: But where have I made the impact? In what arena?

645
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:07,720
Speaker 3: Have I made the biggest impact? I would say through

646
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:10,840
Speaker 3: my art and through my writing right, not through my activists.

647
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:14,280
Speaker 1: Right in everyday lives, not systems change, which turns out

648
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 1: to be perhaps more unwieldy than we ever could have

649
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 1: imagined based on recent revelations. Yeah, you know, one thing

650
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:22,520
Speaker 1: I will say I've changed my mind about that you

651
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:24,240
Speaker 1: made me think of is I'm also very much into

652
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:26,800
Speaker 1: facts and I come from a family of lawyers also,

653
00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:28,720
Speaker 1: so it's sort of like approve it, or like, let's

654
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 1: talk it through until we get to the logic of

655
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:32,240
Speaker 1: it all. And the older I get, I get more

656
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 1: woo woo. I'm just a little bit more like, how

657
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:37,560
Speaker 1: the hell do we know? Maybe maybe astrology is a thing,

658
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:40,920
Speaker 1: Maybe there is an energy share. Yeah, maybe people are psychic,

659
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 1: Maybe there are aliens. Maybe like every turn, I'm like,

660
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 1: I don't know, let's talk about it, let's dive into it.

661
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:48,600
Speaker 1: It could be fun, it could be interesting. So I'm

662
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:50,000
Speaker 1: way more woo wo than I used to be. I

663
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:51,960
Speaker 1: used to roll my eyes at that, but I think

664
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 1: also just women in general, we get older and more

665
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 1: feminist and more witchy. They always say everybody gets more

666
00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:00,680
Speaker 1: conservative as they get older, except for any women. We

667
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:04,320
Speaker 1: just get more and more totally true, offended by the

668
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:07,880
Speaker 1: idea of it all. You mentioned earlier you were a waitress.

669
00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:11,440
Speaker 1: You were also a youth advocate, a political organizer, in office,

670
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:14,520
Speaker 1: temp and emergency medical technician. You've had a lot of jobs,

671
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 1: and I'm wondering what your advice to someone out there

672
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:20,200
Speaker 1: who thinks that they're wise or talented or full of

673
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:22,600
Speaker 1: art that they need to share, but they're stuck in

674
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 1: that temp job, or they're stuck behind a diner counter

675
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:26,240
Speaker 1: and they're not sure how to get from one to

676
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 1: the other. What's your broadest advice to how to finally

677
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:30,680
Speaker 1: take that step.

678
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:34,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's such a great question, and I would say,

679
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:36,800
Speaker 3: you know, first of all, change your mindset from this

680
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:39,760
Speaker 3: idea that you're stuck. And I know that feeling because

681
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:43,320
Speaker 3: I have had really sometimes shitty jobs or some of

682
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:45,880
Speaker 3: those jobs you listed I loved and cared a lot about,

683
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 3: but I knew it wasn't like really my true calling,

684
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:51,240
Speaker 3: which which is writing. And I think that you know,

685
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:54,560
Speaker 3: what I always came back to is I am doing

686
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:58,520
Speaker 3: what I need to do to support myself. Now that

687
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:00,880
Speaker 3: that means both financially, you know, I took those jobs

688
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 3: because I had to pay the bills, but also what

689
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:06,360
Speaker 3: I was doing is supporting this endeavor that did mean

690
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:09,280
Speaker 3: something to me. So if I was waiting tables, but

691
00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:12,120
Speaker 3: my real work quote unquote was writing my first novel,

692
00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 3: which was the case for many years, make damn sure

693
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:18,200
Speaker 3: that I'm doing that real work too, so you know,

694
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 3: follow through on that commitment to yourself. So you're going

695
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:24,480
Speaker 3: to feel a lot better on that job that you're

696
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:27,000
Speaker 3: only working to pay the rent. If also you can

697
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:29,320
Speaker 3: look back on the week before and say, and did

698
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:32,360
Speaker 3: I say I was going to write six hours last week? Yes?

699
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:34,680
Speaker 3: And did I write six hours last week? I did?

700
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 3: And that is the way you make your dreams come

701
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:42,200
Speaker 3: true is you make good on your intentions period. End

702
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:46,280
Speaker 3: of story. You don't necessarily write six hours brilliantly. You

703
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:48,200
Speaker 3: don't write six hours that you feel like are going

704
00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:51,560
Speaker 3: to win the Pulitzer Prize. You write, or you do

705
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:53,800
Speaker 3: the thing fill in the blank, whatever it is that

706
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:56,680
Speaker 3: is feeding your soul or making you feel like you

707
00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:59,480
Speaker 3: are answering the call within you, or or maybe it's

708
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:01,680
Speaker 3: not even that deep. It's like something else that gives

709
00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 3: you life, and that's really important to do. And also

710
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:08,680
Speaker 3: in retrospect, you know, I mentioned I grew up poor.

711
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:11,920
Speaker 3: I worked. I've had a job since I was like

712
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 3: thirteen or fourteen. As a teenager, I worked at the

713
00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:17,120
Speaker 3: Dairy Queen and McGregor, Minnesota. I worked as a janitor's

714
00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:19,760
Speaker 3: assistant at the Little Podunk School where I went to school.

715
00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:22,279
Speaker 3: And when I went to college and met all these

716
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:25,879
Speaker 3: people who had more economic privilege than me, and found out, oh,

717
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:28,120
Speaker 3: they'd been going to summer camp and they'd you know,

718
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:31,520
Speaker 3: go went to France and like private TUTA and they

719
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 3: had so many opportunities, saying, well, like studying abroad. I

720
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:36,640
Speaker 3: couldn't study abroad as a college and like, they had

721
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:38,799
Speaker 3: so many opportunities. And for a long time I had

722
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:41,879
Speaker 3: a chip on my shoulder because I thought they were

723
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:45,320
Speaker 3: better educated than me. And now what I know, maybe

724
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:47,239
Speaker 3: this is an answer to your question, what I changed

725
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:51,160
Speaker 3: my mind about how lucky I am because guess what,

726
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:55,480
Speaker 3: I got an incredible education. I got an incredible education.

727
00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:59,480
Speaker 3: You work for Dairy Queen for four summers and trust

728
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:02,239
Speaker 3: me to learn something about the human condition. Yeah, and

729
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:04,440
Speaker 3: also soft serve ice cream. You know, I can make

730
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:07,160
Speaker 3: one of those loopy dope things, you know. But yeah,

731
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:09,200
Speaker 3: what I mean, I mean that in a really sincere

732
00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:13,799
Speaker 3: way to think about these jobs, these jobs that don't

733
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:17,239
Speaker 3: feel like they're giving you something, you know much, they're

734
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:20,440
Speaker 3: actually teaching you a lot, and it's about and it's about,

735
00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:22,520
Speaker 3: you know, learning the lessons that are offered to you

736
00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:24,799
Speaker 3: and making something out done in the end.

737
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:27,759
Speaker 1: I actually think a lot of kids would do really

738
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:29,680
Speaker 1: well by having a gap year before they go to

739
00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:31,319
Speaker 1: college and trying to just get a job in the

740
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:34,160
Speaker 1: real world, so that they applied themselves at college understanding

741
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:36,160
Speaker 1: what they're going to be entering when they're done, instead

742
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:38,440
Speaker 1: of sort of freedom of just going straight from high

743
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:40,240
Speaker 1: school to college and never having to pay the bills

744
00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 1: and figure it out. I also think what was the

745
00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:44,920
Speaker 1: name of your first guest on Mind over Mountain Remind

746
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:46,880
Speaker 1: me Tomorrow Walcott power Lept.

747
00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:47,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, Tomorrow Walcott.

748
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:50,400
Speaker 1: She was talking about You asked her about the motivation

749
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:52,360
Speaker 1: to go in and work every day toward her craft,

750
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:55,040
Speaker 1: and she said, don't get it twisted. You call it motivation,

751
00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:57,680
Speaker 1: It's actually dedication and they're very different, and I was

752
00:35:57,840 --> 00:35:59,680
Speaker 1: thinking about the semantics of that, but I think what

753
00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:01,520
Speaker 1: you just said kind of ties into that, which is

754
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:04,319
Speaker 1: you can tell yourself there's a different meaning between I

755
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:07,080
Speaker 1: need to be motivated by wanting to do more or

756
00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:09,600
Speaker 1: win this or earn this versus I need to be

757
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:12,680
Speaker 1: dedicated to this thing regardless of whether it serves me

758
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:14,560
Speaker 1: and feeds me, because it's the thing that gets me

759
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:16,960
Speaker 1: the other thing I want. Yeah, So being dedicated to

760
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:20,000
Speaker 1: your job so that you can write afterwards, Being dedicated

761
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:21,920
Speaker 1: to your work, whatever it is in the moment so

762
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:24,120
Speaker 1: that you can get eventually to the place where you

763
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:27,080
Speaker 1: can do another job you care more about. I think

764
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:30,840
Speaker 1: reframing it as dedication instead of needing to feel a

765
00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:34,439
Speaker 1: motivation first might get you through some shit that I'm

766
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:36,840
Speaker 1: not motivated to go to dairy queen. I am dedicated

767
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:38,799
Speaker 1: to show up every day because I'm going to get

768
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:42,040
Speaker 1: something else out of it, which I thought that was interesting.

769
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:44,640
Speaker 3: And I think too, you know, I absolutely agree with

770
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:47,880
Speaker 3: that dedication and tension. You know, that kind of commitment

771
00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:50,520
Speaker 3: is everything. But also I think it's so important to

772
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:52,920
Speaker 3: remember these these are, you know, one step at a

773
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 3: time deals, you know, again here we go back to

774
00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:58,680
Speaker 3: a while, like how do you walk along trail one

775
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:00,520
Speaker 3: step at a time? How do you do anything that

776
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:02,719
Speaker 3: when Tomorrow talked about going to the bar, it's like

777
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:06,279
Speaker 3: going every day and some days you can lift the

778
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 3: bar to let that way, and sometimes the bar the

779
00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:12,800
Speaker 3: bar to live exactly and sometimes it's it's harder than others,

780
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:15,719
Speaker 3: but those days accumulate. Same with like any kind of

781
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:18,360
Speaker 3: artistic endeavor. If you write one page every day for

782
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:21,480
Speaker 3: a year, that's not on that daily scale, that's not

783
00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:23,560
Speaker 3: much one page, but at the end of the year,

784
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:25,560
Speaker 3: that's three hundred and sixty five pages. That's a book,

785
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:29,680
Speaker 3: you know. So I think that trusting in the power

786
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:32,879
Speaker 3: we have on the on the sort of like at

787
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 3: foot speed, if you will, on the micro level, and

788
00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:38,600
Speaker 3: those things add up, and so you know, you can

789
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:40,640
Speaker 3: live a life where you look back and think I

790
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:42,640
Speaker 3: should have done this, I should have done that, or

791
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:45,160
Speaker 3: you can look back and say I'm so glad I

792
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:47,600
Speaker 3: did these things because look where they got me. Now.

793
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:48,240
Speaker 2: Yeah.

794
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:50,040
Speaker 1: I always think if you're like, what do I want

795
00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:51,560
Speaker 1: to be in ten years, then you got to go, Okay,

796
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:53,279
Speaker 1: what does that look like in five years? Okay, what

797
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:54,719
Speaker 1: does that mean I have to do in three years?

798
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:56,200
Speaker 2: Okay? What does that mean has to happen in the

799
00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:57,040
Speaker 2: next year? Okay?

800
00:37:57,040 --> 00:37:59,400
Speaker 1: What can I start tomorrow instead of always so in

801
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:00,960
Speaker 1: ten years I will for this? And what are you

802
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:03,439
Speaker 1: doing every day to get to that? And you also

803
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:05,439
Speaker 1: just mentioned regrets, which brings me to my last question.

804
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:07,520
Speaker 1: One of the advice columns that I've sent a few

805
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:09,799
Speaker 1: folks that you wrote was a response to a man

806
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:12,000
Speaker 1: who was wondering if he and his wife should have children,

807
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:14,520
Speaker 1: and in it you wrote quote you say that you

808
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:16,279
Speaker 1: and your partner don't want to make the choice to

809
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:19,200
Speaker 1: become parents simply because you're afraid you will regret.

810
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:19,920
Speaker 2: Not having one later.

811
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:23,120
Speaker 1: But I encourage you to re examine that not regretting

812
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:24,799
Speaker 1: it later is the reason I've done at least three

813
00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:27,719
Speaker 1: quarters of the best things in my life. So I'm

814
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:29,520
Speaker 1: wondering now, looking back, if you can think of a

815
00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:33,080
Speaker 1: time that that approach failed you, like, oops, probably should

816
00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:35,480
Speaker 1: have thought about that differently, or if there's a regret

817
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:36,160
Speaker 1: that you do have.

818
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:40,000
Speaker 3: Ah, you know, it's interesting because that is true. I mean,

819
00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:41,960
Speaker 3: what I was writing about is that that choice to

820
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:44,239
Speaker 3: have kids, you know, when I had when I got

821
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:47,480
Speaker 3: pregnant with my first child. I wasn't like I deserately

822
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:49,520
Speaker 3: am ready to have a baby take over my life.

823
00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:52,560
Speaker 3: I was like, oh, geez, I guess it's time. You know,

824
00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:55,680
Speaker 3: we better do that, bes TikTok. And I no regrets.

825
00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:59,759
Speaker 3: You know, I was thrilled to have my baby. But

826
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:02,600
Speaker 3: I wou'd say where my mind went first when you

827
00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:05,800
Speaker 3: asked that question, is you know, like sort of on paper,

828
00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:08,239
Speaker 3: you could look at my life and say, well, you know,

829
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:11,320
Speaker 3: you probably shouldn't have gotten married, like at the insanely

830
00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:13,759
Speaker 3: young age that you did. You know, I married my

831
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:16,120
Speaker 3: first husband, Like I don't. I blush to even say it,

832
00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:19,200
Speaker 3: because I simply cannot believe that I got married a

833
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:23,920
Speaker 3: month before my twentieth birthday. It's shocking to me, it's

834
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:26,239
Speaker 3: shocking to met. But and yet it's you know, I

835
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:28,520
Speaker 3: loved him, he loved me. Had we had a really

836
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:32,720
Speaker 3: wonderful relationship. In retrospect, we should have just been boyfriend

837
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:35,920
Speaker 3: and girlfriend, you know, each other's big serious first relationships

838
00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:38,400
Speaker 3: as adults, and we got married instead, which meant we

839
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:40,720
Speaker 3: had to get divorced, and you know, that was painful,

840
00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:42,480
Speaker 3: and that brought on a lot of turmoil and pain

841
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:45,480
Speaker 3: in my life. But you know, I also hesitate to

842
00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:50,160
Speaker 3: honestly say it as a regret because because obviously, you know,

843
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:54,160
Speaker 3: I needed to make those choices at the time, and

844
00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:57,160
Speaker 3: they taught me something. Yeah, and I love this quote

845
00:39:57,200 --> 00:39:59,920
Speaker 3: that I heard Breezy Johnson say. I think just recently

846
00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:03,600
Speaker 3: at the Olympics, you either win or you learn, you know,

847
00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 3: so even when something quote unquote fails, like you could

848
00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:09,600
Speaker 3: say that first marriage failed, but you know, I learned

849
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:13,279
Speaker 3: a lot and that has served me. Yeah.

850
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:15,560
Speaker 1: I think that's back to the attitude thing too. If

851
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:18,319
Speaker 1: you're able to see how all the things that either

852
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:20,680
Speaker 1: went wrong or weren't quite right got you to where

853
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:22,480
Speaker 1: you are now, and you're grateful for that, then you

854
00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:24,680
Speaker 1: don't want to change them. To quote another Olympia and

855
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:26,480
Speaker 1: Alissa lu said, I wouldn't go back and tell my

856
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:28,200
Speaker 1: younger self anything. She's going to figure it out and

857
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:30,239
Speaker 1: she needs to go through that for me to get here.

858
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:34,320
Speaker 3: So that's right. Lies women with capital w's right there.

859
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:37,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, and she's only twenty and on marriage, she's got

860
00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:41,359
Speaker 1: it all figured out. Joe was so great to talk

861
00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:43,160
Speaker 1: to you. I'm so excited to hear more of mind

862
00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:44,960
Speaker 1: over Mountain. I'm so grateful that you're a part of

863
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:48,280
Speaker 1: our new iheartwomen's sports family. And as our producer Alex

864
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:50,520
Speaker 1: pointed out, it's not too late for either of us

865
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:54,120
Speaker 1: to become the first female president. Unfortunately, so if we

866
00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:56,560
Speaker 1: want to take another big swing before we're gone, we're

867
00:40:56,880 --> 00:41:00,479
Speaker 1: way too young apparently to even think of about running

868
00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:01,080
Speaker 1: for president.

869
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:04,560
Speaker 3: But how about this, Sarah, And since we're both kind

870
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:06,160
Speaker 3: of you know, we sort of change, you're sort of

871
00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:09,279
Speaker 3: reticent about this, Like we could have about co co presidents, like.

872
00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:12,600
Speaker 2: Perfect, the first ever co leadership.

873
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:14,719
Speaker 3: Presidence since America, you know, hates women so much, and

874
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:17,200
Speaker 3: we can't manage to elect one female president who's way

875
00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:20,160
Speaker 3: way into qualified. Maybe if we present two of us,

876
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:20,480
Speaker 3: you know.

877
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:22,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, because our brains are so small, but if

878
00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:24,560
Speaker 1: we put two of our brains together, it'd.

879
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:24,920
Speaker 2: Be like a man.

880
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:28,840
Speaker 3: Well and also, technically we're both underqualified to actually be president.

881
00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:30,800
Speaker 3: I mean, we're qualified in a lot of other ways,

882
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:31,719
Speaker 3: but like you know.

883
00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:34,200
Speaker 1: That's actually not a thing anymore. I don't know if

884
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:36,600
Speaker 1: you've noticed, but not a thing anymore.

885
00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:38,960
Speaker 3: Literally, Well that's what I'm saying. It might be the

886
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:41,839
Speaker 3: winning ticket, you know, the two women on one here

887
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:45,879
Speaker 3: like the people categories of people we hate women and yes,

888
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:48,840
Speaker 3: categories of people we love, you know, vastly underqualified for

889
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:49,279
Speaker 3: the job.

890
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:54,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, perfect, all right, straight spain spain straight.

891
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:56,480
Speaker 3: It's a word about which one all the Cheryl all

892
00:41:56,520 --> 00:42:01,520
Speaker 3: the Cheryl spray spraids straights. It's strange. We can run

893
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:03,720
Speaker 3: and strained strange.

894
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:10,799
Speaker 1: Or yeah, the power.

895
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:12,760
Speaker 3: So I'm like, you know, I'm basically spade.

896
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:14,840
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh my gosh, and I didn't have kids,

897
00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:15,719
Speaker 2: so between.

898
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:18,800
Speaker 3: You we're literally worth. We're just like the old witch Crowns.

899
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:21,600
Speaker 3: I call myself a prone. I'm like, once I hit menopause,

900
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:23,320
Speaker 3: I was like, call me a crown capital C.

901
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:28,480
Speaker 1: There we go, two capital w's and one capital C. Cheryl,

902
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:29,600
Speaker 1: thanks so much for coming on.

903
00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:31,920
Speaker 3: It's wonderful to talk to Sarah.

904
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:32,279
Speaker 2: Thank you.

905
00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:37,279
Speaker 1: Thanks again to Cheryl for taking the time. We have

906
00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:40,360
Speaker 1: to take another break coming up, the folks, you shouldn't

907
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:52,160
Speaker 1: listen to Welcome back slices. We love that you're listening,

908
00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:53,399
Speaker 1: but we want you to get in the game every

909
00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:55,800
Speaker 1: day too. So here's our good game play of the day.

910
00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:59,480
Speaker 1: Check out Cheryl's new podcast, Mind Over Mountain The newest

911
00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:03,399
Speaker 1: edition to our Iheartwomen's sports lineup of great shows will

912
00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:05,040
Speaker 1: link to the feed in the show notes.

913
00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:06,720
Speaker 2: We always love to hear from.

914
00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:08,239
Speaker 1: You, so hit us up on email good game at

915
00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:11,399
Speaker 1: Wondermedia network dot com, or leave us a voicemail at

916
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:15,440
Speaker 1: eight seven two two four fifty seventy, and don't forget

917
00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:19,560
Speaker 1: to subscribe, Rate and review. It's easy watch people who

918
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:23,840
Speaker 1: confidently give unsolicited bad advice despite not having any experience

919
00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:26,640
Speaker 1: in the space or true knowledge of the topic. Rating

920
00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:31,399
Speaker 1: zero out of five stars. Nobody asked you review. Paul

921
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:34,480
Speaker 1: Cheryl is over here thoughtfully writing advice based on her

922
00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:37,759
Speaker 1: own life experiences and even sometimes reflecting on the times

923
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:38,919
Speaker 1: she maybe didn't have as.

924
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:40,240
Speaker 2: Much experience as she needed.

925
00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:43,520
Speaker 1: There are still far too many people, most of them

926
00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:48,400
Speaker 1: on Facebook and LinkedIn, but also in every barbershop, coffee shop, jim,

927
00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:53,239
Speaker 1: and corner office, confidently offering unsolicited advice on topics they

928
00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:56,359
Speaker 1: know nothing about. You know, the one they hear from

929
00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:58,720
Speaker 1: a friend who's in the final interviews for a new job.

930
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:01,400
Speaker 1: Great time to mention and how cold calling the CEO

931
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:04,240
Speaker 1: is the best way to get noticed. Or they're talking

932
00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 1: to someone who just got some tough Health News, Well,

933
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:09,960
Speaker 1: their uncle overcame a bad diagnosis by just praying the

934
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:13,760
Speaker 1: cancer away. And of course this person is obviously still

935
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:17,680
Speaker 1: in the comments on every WNBA post citing that Adam

936
00:44:17,719 --> 00:44:20,440
Speaker 1: silver ten million dollar loss per year figure from over

937
00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:23,880
Speaker 1: a decade ago, with zero interest in ever learning anything

938
00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:26,799
Speaker 1: new about the league. As my friend Matt Quinn of

939
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:30,160
Speaker 1: Mount joy O pines in the song silver Lining, teach

940
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:34,399
Speaker 1: only what you know you know, y'all. Sometimes the best

941
00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:37,919
Speaker 1: quote unquote advice is just listening. Now, it's your turn,

942
00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:42,440
Speaker 1: rate and review. Thanks for listening, See you tomorrow. Good Game, Cheryl,

943
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:47,680
Speaker 1: Good Game, Strayed Spain twenty twenty eight, You Unearned confidence.

944
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:53,040
Speaker 1: Good Game with Sarah Spain is an iHeart women's sports

945
00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:56,239
Speaker 1: production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. You

946
00:44:56,239 --> 00:44:59,200
Speaker 1: can find us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or

947
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:02,560
Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. Production by Wonder Media Network,

948
00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:06,160
Speaker 1: our producers are Alex Azzi and Bianca Hillier. Our executive

949
00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:09,760
Speaker 1: producers are Christina Everett, Jesse Katz, Jenny Kaplan, and Emily Rudder.

950
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:12,880
Speaker 1: Our editors are Emily Rutterer, Lucy Jones, Britney Martinez, and

951
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:16,480
Speaker 1: Gianna Palmer, Production assistants from Avery LOFTUS and I'm Your

952
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:17,560
Speaker 1: Host Sarah Spain.