WEBVTT - Crypto Comes to the Mainstream: What the FCA’s New Rules Mean for UK Investors

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news. Welcome to Merrin Talks

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<v Speaker 1>Your Money, the personal finance edition of Merin Talks Money

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<v Speaker 1>and these bonus podcasts we talk about the best strategies

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<v Speaker 1>for making the most of your money. I'm Merin Zumset,

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<v Speaker 1>Web Editor at Large for Bloomberg UK Wealth.

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<v Speaker 2>And I'm joint stepping author of the multi award winning

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<v Speaker 2>Money Distilled newsletter and also a senior porto of Bloomberg.

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<v Speaker 1>I would like to say that it's only two awards,

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<v Speaker 1>not multi.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, maybe I should be a double award.

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<v Speaker 1>Double award winning. I'll accept that. I'll accept that. Right. Listen, John,

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<v Speaker 1>you and I were not great fans of crypto. We

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<v Speaker 1>should be, but you know, we haven't quite got over

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<v Speaker 1>the over the hump yet into it. But listeners who

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<v Speaker 1>do watched this stuff very closely, who love crypto, who

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<v Speaker 1>want to own a lot of crypto, Obviously they have

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<v Speaker 1>been keeping a very close eye on the way it

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<v Speaker 1>is regulated in the UK. And you might remember that

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<v Speaker 1>a while back the FCA that Financial Conduct Authority band

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<v Speaker 1>retail investors from investing in crypto exchange traded notes or etns.

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<v Speaker 1>Back in twenty twenty one you could before that you

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<v Speaker 1>couldn't afterwards the time they said, oh, well, you know

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<v Speaker 1>it's volatile. There's lots of abuse, financial crime all over

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<v Speaker 1>the place. And the quote here inadequate understanding of crypto

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<v Speaker 1>assets by retail consumers and a lack of legitimate investment

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<v Speaker 1>need for retail consumers to invest in these products. Now

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<v Speaker 1>you may say those things still stand, but not everybody

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<v Speaker 1>would agree and something has changed, right, yes.

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<v Speaker 2>Indeed, but or octobally it's just last week the FC

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<v Speaker 2>lefted that mind. Seeing that retail investors can no access

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<v Speaker 2>crypto etns. T did on an FCA approved UK based

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<v Speaker 2>investment exchange, so you know, your typical UK platform. So

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<v Speaker 2>David Gayle, Executive Director of Payments and Digital Finance at

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<v Speaker 2>the FCA said, since we're restricted to retail access to

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<v Speaker 2>crypto atns, the market has evolved and products have become

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<v Speaker 2>more mainstream and better understood, and lightly this we're providing

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<v Speaker 2>consumers with more choice while ensuring there are protections in place.

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<v Speaker 2>This should mean people get the information they need to

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<v Speaker 2>assess whether the level of risk is right for them.

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<v Speaker 1>Right.

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<v Speaker 2>I think that's probably other reasons.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh, you think there are other reasons do you think

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<v Speaker 1>that other reasons might be bigcoin treasuries, for example.

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<v Speaker 2>I think they're the obvious reason on the investment side.

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<v Speaker 2>The other reason on the regulatory side is that Rachel

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<v Speaker 2>Reeves has been twisting the regulators arms to try and

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<v Speaker 2>get them to growth friendly things, and this was clearly

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<v Speaker 2>an obvious stop to chuck. I feel.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, this is growth friendly for crypto assets, but

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<v Speaker 1>whether that's good for UK GDP growth all n is

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<v Speaker 1>another question. But I kind of get that this is

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<v Speaker 1>about growth and competitiveness inside this space.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, if your voice is bugging you to loosen up,

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<v Speaker 2>then this is the sort of thing you can chuck

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<v Speaker 2>and see. Look, well, loosening up actually doing anything.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay. So that's one reason when I look at it,

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<v Speaker 1>I think, well, hang on, you know, they're just slightly

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<v Speaker 1>overtaken by the fact that there are so many other

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<v Speaker 1>ways into crypto these days, and the bitcoin treasury companies

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<v Speaker 1>or the crypto treasury companies in particularly when we've talked

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<v Speaker 1>about these on this podcast before. If you can buy

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<v Speaker 1>shares in a company that exists purely for the purpose

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<v Speaker 1>of leveraged exposure to bitcoin, isn't it better to find

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<v Speaker 1>a way to have a more straightforward asset class that

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<v Speaker 1>maybe is not leveraged and provides a different, more regulated

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<v Speaker 1>way for people to get exposure to crypto. It seems

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<v Speaker 1>to me that might have been the driver from the

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<v Speaker 1>FCA side, or you'd prefer people to hold something less

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<v Speaker 1>leveraged than a bitcoin treasury company.

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely agree, I mean that makes sense as well, whenever

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<v Speaker 2>the loose and the uploaded noisy directly to all your

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<v Speaker 2>support and could always buy being easier in this stuff.

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<v Speaker 2>So I think you can never discount the amount of

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<v Speaker 2>backsade covering that articulator will indulge in. But definitely not

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<v Speaker 2>meanly the big cooin traces that are a big thing,

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<v Speaker 2>and they have overtaken it means stupid to be in

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<v Speaker 2>the position. But then actually, yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Behind the cab like this, it really is okay, So

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<v Speaker 1>here we are. I think what we really need to

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<v Speaker 1>talk about is what an et N is, how you

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<v Speaker 1>can buy them, and whether this is really a more

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<v Speaker 1>straightforward way for you to get exposure to crypto than

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<v Speaker 1>just I mean, it's always a mystery to me when

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<v Speaker 1>everyone doesn't open an account at the likes of coinbase

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<v Speaker 1>and hold their bitcoin or whatever it else. It is

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<v Speaker 1>they want to hold directly but clearly not And at

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<v Speaker 1>the moment, FCA numbers tell us that around twelve percent

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<v Speaker 1>of adults in the UK hold crypto, which seems an

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<v Speaker 1>incredibly high number to me. I'm amazed by that number,

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<v Speaker 1>significantly higher than I think, which of course explains why

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<v Speaker 1>we've been so wrong on bitcoind of course, much more

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<v Speaker 1>popular than we thinking this stuff is demand driven. Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>so round twelve percent and another twenty thirty percent say

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<v Speaker 1>that if they could be if it was more regulated

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<v Speaker 1>and more secure, then they would be interested. Of course,

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<v Speaker 1>people make the mistake of thinking that regulated means safe

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<v Speaker 1>when it doesn't mean anything of the sort.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think a lot of time they're really talking

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<v Speaker 2>about hassle. If it was less hassle to buy from

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<v Speaker 2>a shop that I trust and that I know like

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<v Speaker 2>you know, hard grieves or interactive investor people who are

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<v Speaker 2>less comfortable with opening and up and messing about with that.

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<v Speaker 2>But I mean, you're right, see on that point, about

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<v Speaker 2>twelve percent of people that I've got a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>friends who work in you know, normal non finance jobs,

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<v Speaker 2>and they're far more actively engaged with kind of crypto portfolios.

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<v Speaker 2>With significant amounts of money and then they are with

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<v Speaker 2>their pension or with individual stocks or anything like that.

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<v Speaker 2>And I think it's just something to be said for

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<v Speaker 2>the argument that I mean, you've made this point. It's

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<v Speaker 2>the excitement in the fact you can make a lot.

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<v Speaker 1>Of money, make money with gold for example.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'm just.

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<v Speaker 1>Saying it is IG that this number came from. By

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<v Speaker 1>the way, thirty percent of UK adults would consider investing

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<v Speaker 1>in crypto etn's IG found that younger adults are particularly

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<v Speaker 1>entered in mine crypto etns, with fifty percent of eighteen

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<v Speaker 1>to twenty four year old and forty nine percent of

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<v Speaker 1>twenty five to thirty four year old expressing interest, so

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<v Speaker 1>it is still very much a younger thing. The idea

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<v Speaker 1>behind this is crypto suddenly becomes less of a fringe trade,

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<v Speaker 1>which clearly it isn't there for already twelve percent of

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<v Speaker 1>people who are into into it regulated tool for building

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<v Speaker 1>resilient portfolios. So then we have to ask, hey, what

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<v Speaker 1>is an ETN, John? Can you answer that one?

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<v Speaker 2>An ETN, as far as you can walkout in the

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<v Speaker 2>British cointext is basically like an ETF. It's slightly different,

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<v Speaker 2>but the differences are mainly technical. When they somewhat to do,

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<v Speaker 2>we can use its regulation and so it's a debt

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<v Speaker 2>instrument that basically tracks the value of the underlying asset.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>At the same time, in this case, the debt instrument

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<v Speaker 2>itself is usually backed by a holding of the underlying asset.

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<v Speaker 2>And obviously you'll need to look at the individual atn

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<v Speaker 2>but I think for the purposes of the theoretical ones

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<v Speaker 2>that are coming out, you can basically think of it

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<v Speaker 2>as an ETF. It's just an ETF for crypto.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, you can think of it an ETF, but it's

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<v Speaker 1>not an ETF. It's still a debt instrument, and that

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<v Speaker 1>comes with all the risks that a debt instrument comes with.

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<v Speaker 1>So you've got the risk of the underlying thing itself,

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<v Speaker 1>whatever crypto. It is, right that the risk of that

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<v Speaker 1>wibbling around in price, and then you've got all the

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<v Speaker 1>risk comes with holding something that is debt as opposed

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<v Speaker 1>to an actual asset. You've got your counter plant to risk,

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<v Speaker 1>et cetera, et cetera.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, no, I agree, And obviously this did become an

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<v Speaker 2>issue in two thousand and eight financial crisis, But in

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<v Speaker 2>my view, if you can in stay your money an ACCEPTO,

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<v Speaker 2>then this is it's yet another thing to think about

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<v Speaker 2>on top of all the other things you should ploably

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<v Speaker 2>be thinking of it. If you can stake your money

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<v Speaker 2>and to accept or CURTNCY.

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<v Speaker 1>I suppose you have to cry about theft as well,

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<v Speaker 1>don't you. I mean, it's really unlikely that someone's going

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<v Speaker 1>to get into hard groups Landsdown's stash of shell shares

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<v Speaker 1>and NIKEM but crypto has a slightly different vibe crime noise.

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<v Speaker 2>That's an interesting point. I thought that.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, I suppose my point is just that that there's

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of risk around something like an ETN. You're

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<v Speaker 1>not just buying a straightforward tracker. You know, you buy

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<v Speaker 1>a straightforward equity tracker. It holds the equities in the

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<v Speaker 1>main you know they're there, they're underlying. But you buy

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<v Speaker 1>an ETN that is supposed to return you the the

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<v Speaker 1>same capital return as they're supposedly underlying crypto, you can't

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<v Speaker 1>necessarily be sure that's going to happen. There's lots, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>TwixT and TwixT between the the act itself and the

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<v Speaker 1>return that you might or might not get. It's just

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<v Speaker 1>a little higher risk anyway. With that in mind, not

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<v Speaker 1>everyone will be able to buy them, So yes, if

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<v Speaker 1>you go, and you may remember some of you may

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<v Speaker 1>remember the episode in which I told John that I

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<v Speaker 1>had failed the coin based quiz to give me access

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<v Speaker 1>to my account. Remember that John, Yes, and I'm sure

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<v Speaker 1>lots of listeners will go. Well, she would, wouldn't she?

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<v Speaker 1>That woman knows nothing about crypto anyway, took me a

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<v Speaker 1>couple of goals. Turns out all the answers are online.

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<v Speaker 1>Not such big deal after all funding before, so crypto

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<v Speaker 1>etns will be similar. They're restricted mass market investments, so

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<v Speaker 1>are MMI's, and that means that not everyone can get them.

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<v Speaker 1>You have to pass a quiz or something that proves

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<v Speaker 1>that you are a sophisticated investor of the type that

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<v Speaker 1>is able to deal with this slightly higher risk type

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<v Speaker 1>of investment. The only one that in Hargoo's landsdown has

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<v Speaker 1>said that they thoroughly disapprove of the whole thing. Bitcoin

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<v Speaker 1>is not a portfolio ASID, it's not the kind of

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<v Speaker 1>thing that you should have an a portfolio to meet

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<v Speaker 1>your long term gains et cetera, et cetera. But nonetheless

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<v Speaker 1>they'll be having etns too, just not immediately.

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<v Speaker 2>I can see why half these lines don't specifically, is

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<v Speaker 2>been very careful because obviously they had the issue we

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<v Speaker 2>would for the while ago, which I think will have

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<v Speaker 2>made them ultrasensitive about how they talk to retail customers.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, at the same time, I don't necessarily disagree

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<v Speaker 2>with them. You know, I think there is probably a

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<v Speaker 2>place for crypto in your portfolio, but it's a very

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<v Speaker 2>small place and somewhere adjacent to your gold holding. I think, Sorry, John, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>I think if you're going to hold it, then that's

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<v Speaker 2>where you should think of it as as existing.

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<v Speaker 1>What is a bit like gold.

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<v Speaker 2>But I we set it in that same trying to

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<v Speaker 2>avoid currency devaluation box and also good for crossing the

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<v Speaker 2>border with if you actually need take out a dodge

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<v Speaker 2>really fast. But obviously it doesn't correlate with gold partially.

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<v Speaker 1>Now, now, as we've seen over the last the last

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<v Speaker 1>few weeks, a couple of other things just to say

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<v Speaker 1>before we finish on this. The first one is that

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<v Speaker 1>you can't just buy any old cryptocurrency ETN. It's bitcoin

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<v Speaker 1>and ethereum for now. Other things says that you can

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<v Speaker 1>put these etns into your SIP and your ISA, as

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<v Speaker 1>long as that's something that the issuer has arranged, so

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<v Speaker 1>you can do both those things. Should you put cryptocurrencies

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<v Speaker 1>in your or things that are linked to cryptocurrencies one

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<v Speaker 1>way or another into your SIP or? I said, that's

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<v Speaker 1>another question, but you can ISA.

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<v Speaker 2>There is one slight wrinkle in the ISIS but apparently

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<v Speaker 2>hm il see and I don't know. It looks as

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<v Speaker 2>if this might change. But for now you can put

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<v Speaker 2>in your stocks and shares ISA, but for some reason,

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<v Speaker 2>from the next tax here you'll have to put it

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<v Speaker 2>in an innovative finance is.

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<v Speaker 1>I reckon, I'm of that, don't you. I'm not.

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<v Speaker 2>Finance ISIS Well exactly, Yeah, that seems like something that

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<v Speaker 2>will change.

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<v Speaker 1>But although, to be honest, if there's one thing that

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<v Speaker 1>we could say about a crypto ETN is that it

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<v Speaker 1>is innovative finance.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, this is true, but maybe that is the leg

0:12:03.160 --> 0:12:03.880
<v Speaker 2>place to put it.

0:12:04.320 --> 0:12:06.520
<v Speaker 1>And John, this will give you a fabulous opportunity to

0:12:06.559 --> 0:12:08.079
<v Speaker 1>finally get some crypto exposure.

0:12:08.840 --> 0:12:12.040
<v Speaker 2>Excellent. I can buy in absolutely. I'm sure that it's

0:12:12.080 --> 0:12:13.080
<v Speaker 2>still going to the moon.

0:12:13.160 --> 0:12:14.800
<v Speaker 1>I no doubt about it. And does won't mean that

0:12:14.840 --> 0:12:16.440
<v Speaker 1>you won't have to do the admin to open a

0:12:16.440 --> 0:12:18.240
<v Speaker 1>coin base account, because I know you're never going to

0:12:18.320 --> 0:12:20.120
<v Speaker 1>do this this way. You can just take a chunky

0:12:20.160 --> 0:12:22.679
<v Speaker 1>attension and stick it straight into a Bitcoin ETM, no

0:12:22.800 --> 0:12:25.360
<v Speaker 1>admin required. We'll all look forward to hearing how that

0:12:25.480 --> 0:12:26.000
<v Speaker 1>goes for you.

0:12:27.160 --> 0:12:28.480
<v Speaker 2>I don't think i'll pass the test.

0:12:30.720 --> 0:12:32.400
<v Speaker 1>I was like to be looking the other day at

0:12:32.400 --> 0:12:36.120
<v Speaker 1>one of the sample tests. Quite hard, quite hard. Well,

0:12:36.280 --> 0:12:38.880
<v Speaker 1>but but but in good news, all the answers will

0:12:38.920 --> 0:12:40.240
<v Speaker 1>be on the Internet in the next week or so.

0:12:40.240 --> 0:12:42.840
<v Speaker 1>It's been a bother at all. That does put all

0:12:42.840 --> 0:12:45.240
<v Speaker 1>the platforms under some pressure to make sure they constantly

0:12:45.600 --> 0:12:47.920
<v Speaker 1>change the test. They have rolling questions, et cetera, et cetera,

0:12:48.000 --> 0:12:50.000
<v Speaker 1>try to make sure that they are fulfilling the brief

0:12:50.040 --> 0:12:52.920
<v Speaker 1>of making sure that only suitable investors get this. Obviously,

0:12:52.920 --> 0:12:54.719
<v Speaker 1>we're not going to help anybody pass the test, but

0:12:55.080 --> 0:12:57.760
<v Speaker 1>I'm sure that the internet will provide.

0:12:58.400 --> 0:13:02.839
<v Speaker 2>One last question from yeah, go on giving away this, like, realistically,

0:13:03.000 --> 0:13:06.240
<v Speaker 2>how big a difference do you think this is going

0:13:06.320 --> 0:13:10.520
<v Speaker 2>to make total There's still a lot of hoop jumping

0:13:10.760 --> 0:13:13.640
<v Speaker 2>to buy this stuff. There is an element of if

0:13:13.640 --> 0:13:17.120
<v Speaker 2>I'm already in a treasury company, why bother. And also

0:13:17.760 --> 0:13:20.480
<v Speaker 2>if I wasn't going to open a coin base account,

0:13:20.559 --> 0:13:23.920
<v Speaker 2>then why am I going to jump through the RMMI hoop?

0:13:24.440 --> 0:13:26.760
<v Speaker 2>Particularly whenever most of the people who are going to

0:13:26.760 --> 0:13:30.280
<v Speaker 2>be offering this a little bit tentative because they are

0:13:30.360 --> 0:13:34.200
<v Speaker 2>also aware that if it all blows up then they

0:13:34.200 --> 0:13:38.160
<v Speaker 2>will almost certainly get an absolute loaded people chance in

0:13:38.240 --> 0:13:41.520
<v Speaker 2>their armor, you know, claiming mis selling even a though

0:13:41.600 --> 0:13:45.360
<v Speaker 2>that that wouldn't be fair, you know, more que for

0:13:45.400 --> 0:13:48.000
<v Speaker 2>the people coming in like five years time something like that,

0:13:48.960 --> 0:13:49.280
<v Speaker 2>like the.

0:13:49.280 --> 0:13:51.920
<v Speaker 1>Cause I don't know. And it's a very good point,

0:13:52.320 --> 0:13:55.160
<v Speaker 1>and that people who are enthusiastic at back crypto already

0:13:55.200 --> 0:13:58.160
<v Speaker 1>on the admin the whole cryptop will people who are

0:13:58.200 --> 0:14:01.600
<v Speaker 1>not as enthusiastic these hoops stick out there? Well, we'll

0:14:01.640 --> 0:14:02.080
<v Speaker 1>find out.

0:14:02.360 --> 0:14:03.040
<v Speaker 2>We'll find out.

0:14:04.240 --> 0:14:09.480
<v Speaker 1>You're not going to be judging about it either, right never, Okay, good,

0:14:15.360 --> 0:14:17.640
<v Speaker 1>Thanks for listening to this week's Maren Drugs Your Money.

0:14:17.640 --> 0:14:20.320
<v Speaker 1>If you like us show, rate, review, and subscribe wherever

0:14:20.360 --> 0:14:22.720
<v Speaker 1>you listen to podcasts. Also, be shure to follow me

0:14:22.800 --> 0:14:25.160
<v Speaker 1>and John on ex or Twitter at marins w and

0:14:25.240 --> 0:14:28.800
<v Speaker 1>John Underscore Stapic. This episode was produced by Moses and

0:14:28.880 --> 0:14:31.840
<v Speaker 1>Aman SUMMERSIDI questions and comments on this show and all

0:14:31.880 --> 0:14:34.560
<v Speaker 1>our shows are always welcome. Our show email is Merrior

0:14:34.640 --> 0:14:36.600
<v Speaker 1>Money at Bloomberg dot net