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Speaker 1: Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg Podcast.

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Speaker 1: Today's episode is powered by tdum or Trade. Every stroke

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Speaker 1: Visit tedomiror trade dot com slash Frida Egg member SIPC.

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Speaker 1: We are back with another edition of the Friday Egg Podcast,

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Speaker 1: and I am joined with Garrett Morrison Man, the editor

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Speaker 1: of The Friday Egg. Hey, hey you're back.

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Speaker 2: I'm back.

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Speaker 1: Successful podcast debut with Bob Crosby got a lot of

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Speaker 1: great feedback. I was, I don't know where I was

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Speaker 1: a lot of people are telling me they loved it though.

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Speaker 2: That's great to hear. Bob was an awesome guest, and

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Speaker 2: so it's all downhill from here.

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Speaker 1: Hey, you know a least see you'll have those the

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Speaker 1: glory of your first time, that's right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So today we've got Kevin More coming on. He is

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Speaker 1: a University of Georgia mathematics professor also runs a business

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Speaker 1: doing golf course strategy. So I think this was inspired

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Speaker 1: by Rory's comments about setup and strategy this weekend from

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Speaker 1: the Dunhill Links. So Garrett, you've got more on Kevin

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Speaker 1: and kind of the basis for this conversation.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, sure. I mean, Kevin is just a really good

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Speaker 2: and unique thinker about golf in general. He sort of

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Speaker 2: has a foot in both camps where he's a competitive

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Speaker 2: golfer with a real pedigree and he advises competitive golfers

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Speaker 2: on how to manage their games. But at the same

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Speaker 2: time he's a lover of golf course architecture, so he

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Speaker 2: should be a really interesting person to talk to. So,

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Speaker 2: you know, in addition to being a professor of mathematics

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Speaker 2: education at at Georgia, the founder of the course management

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Speaker 2: company you talked about, Squares to Circles, he's also involved

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Speaker 2: with a new club and finally he'll be a participate

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Speaker 2: a participant in our roundtable at the Thoroughbred, which takes

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Speaker 2: place on Saturday, October twelfth at Ach and Golf Clubs.

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Speaker 2: So that should be a really interesting discussion as well. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: that should be fun.

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Speaker 1: We'll have Kai Goldby there too, so an architect, so

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Speaker 1: that should be it'll be an interesting discussion about design

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Speaker 1: and strategy with those two. And Kai was a great

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Speaker 1: player in his own regard. He played in college, he's

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Speaker 1: cousins with the Hosses, and his father won the Masters. Yes,

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Speaker 1: so he knows a little pretty decent competitive golf.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, so here we go. Here's our conversation

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Speaker 2: with Kevin Moore.

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Speaker 3: The Frida egg requires a different technique. What you need

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Speaker 3: to do is actually square the face so they'll down

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Speaker 3: underneath that bad lie and propell that ball right out

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Speaker 3: onto the green. Here's the take.

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Speaker 1: Playing out of a buried lion of bunker is completely

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Speaker 1: different than playing out of a nice clean lion of

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Speaker 1: green side bunker. You need to be aggressive on any show,

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Speaker 1: whether it's sitting cleanly or it's a Friday egg.

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Speaker 2: Well, we've all faked the dreaded Friday. Not to be

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Speaker 2: feared though.

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Speaker 3: It's actually a pretty easy shot to hit. Kevin, how

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Speaker 3: are you Andy? I'm doing good. How are you? Oh?

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Speaker 1: Just swell, you know, just a swell, wonderful day here

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Speaker 1: in Chicago. What's the new? What's the down in Georgia?

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Speaker 1: How's the how's the golf season going?

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Speaker 3: The golf season is ninety five and hot. We haven't

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Speaker 3: got that fall break yet, but that still means we

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Speaker 3: can play a lot of golf. Uh, Unlike you all,

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Speaker 3: we don't have to worry about our season running out.

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Speaker 3: So I'll keep on playing through the entire year while

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Speaker 3: you suffer through that Chicago winter.

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Speaker 2: That seemed like an unnecessary swipe there, you know.

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Speaker 3: I mean, we got to take it where we can

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Speaker 3: get it. You know, we struggle all summer, so we

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Speaker 3: have to we have to bask in the glory of

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Speaker 3: our November, December and January.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, luckily my golf game is uh is making me

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Speaker 1: long for a hiatus playing lovesy golf, So it's about

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Speaker 1: time to hang him up for a while.

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Speaker 3: I'll get to see it in person on Thursday.

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Speaker 1: It's true. Right around the corner.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not going to get to hang it up

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Speaker 2: that that's soon. Right, we're all woods.

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Speaker 3: He's just walking me into a hustle. Right there is

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Speaker 3: what he's doing.

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Speaker 1: I got, I got two way mess gone, so I'm

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Speaker 1: not hustling anyway.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to the Then you're not you're not my you're

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Speaker 3: not my teammate. Then if you have that going, yeah,

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Speaker 3: it's uh so Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Anyways, this weekend, big comments from Rory McElroy when he talks,

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Speaker 1: everybody listens. And he went after the European Tour for

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Speaker 1: set up and saying, is SAT separating the good players,

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Speaker 1: you know, SATs separating good and bad shots or good

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Speaker 1: and bad shots enough, and then went into some strategy piece.

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Speaker 1: So we figured he'd be better to talk to you

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Speaker 1: than Kevin Moore.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you're right when he talks, I typically listened with

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Speaker 3: just nodding along. But these ones are a little perplexing

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Speaker 3: in some points, a whole lot to unpack with some

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Speaker 3: of the things that he said.

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Speaker 2: What did you find perplexing?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, Rory what he's been one of the

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Speaker 3: biggest I guess in terms of professional golfers, proponents of

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Speaker 3: you know, those of us that are are hearkening back

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Speaker 3: to some of the older days and like to just

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Speaker 3: play with the thought experiments of what what older technology

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Speaker 3: look like. And he's spoken, you know, his message off

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Speaker 3: and reverberates with that. But you know, this one he

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Speaker 3: went in on course set up and he sort of

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Speaker 3: conflated two things he doesn't typically conflate in terms of

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Speaker 3: mixing strategy and shot making along with course setup, which

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Speaker 3: has really made it a sort of a jumbled mess.

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Speaker 3: If I'm being honest, I think a lot of it

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Speaker 3: was in reaction to unhappiness with display and everything. Obviously

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Speaker 3: is a very articulate and very intelligent golfer. But yeah,

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Speaker 3: just in terms of the comments that were there, there's

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Speaker 3: just a whole lot that was meshed together, right.

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Speaker 2: And he said at one point that you play with

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Speaker 2: more strategy at PGA Tour courses, or that the soft

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Speaker 2: setups on the European Tour demand less in the way

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Speaker 2: of strategy than American courses on the PGA Tour do.

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Speaker 2: I'm wondering what do you think he means by strategy?

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Speaker 2: There as somebody who works with, you know, elite golfers,

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Speaker 2: really good golfers, on how to approach a course tactically.

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Speaker 2: What do you think he means by that?

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Speaker 3: Honestly, that's a hard question to answer because there's a

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Speaker 3: lot of different directions we could go with that. You know,

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Speaker 3: we could look at the different setups across the European Tour,

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Speaker 3: which I see a wide variety of golf courses, probably

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Speaker 3: arguably much wider than the PGA Tour sees, right, but

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Speaker 3: they have a lot of courses more in line with

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Speaker 3: the Trinity Forest than we have one trinity for us

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Speaker 3: where they also range into their tree line, dog leg,

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Speaker 3: bunkered courses as well on the European tour that we

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Speaker 3: see all across the PGA Tour. So maybe, I mean,

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Speaker 3: he definitely could have been speaking just relative to his

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Speaker 3: recent experiences what he spoke to with Renaissance in the

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Speaker 3: Old Course in Carnoustie as well as Kings Barns. They

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Speaker 3: didn't see the toughest conditions. So you run into those

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Speaker 3: courses and it's not a very penalizing game. There's not,

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Speaker 3: honestly for a pro tour player on those courses under

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Speaker 3: those conditions, there's not a whole lot of thinking going

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Speaker 3: on in a lot of cases, so you just hit

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Speaker 3: it out there. You know where line you're taken, hit it,

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Speaker 3: find it, hit it again. We're certainly on a more

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Speaker 3: penal style golf course, like the typical PGA Tour course

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Speaker 3: where they're bunker at two seventy two ninety three ten

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Speaker 3: playing into greens that are decently bunkerd possible water hazards.

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Speaker 3: There's some thinking going on where okay, there's a if

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Speaker 3: I missed this shot by five to ten yards, there's

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Speaker 3: a decent penalty to be paid paid. And it's also

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Speaker 3: an aerial game, so there's a little bit more control,

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Speaker 3: where on his most recent experiences, where it's a little

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Speaker 3: bit more of a ground game, you have a lot

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Speaker 3: less control, so you know where you're hitting it in.

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Speaker 3: From there, it's just take the rubbit of green and

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Speaker 3: go from there. So maybe you know, maybe he was

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Speaker 3: tainted a little bit by his recent experiences and not

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Speaker 3: really thinking about the whole landscape of the European Tour

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Speaker 3: could be one case, but it's certainly the case in

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Speaker 3: the PGA Tour. There is thinking that goes involved just

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Speaker 3: because of or along and a round, just because of

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Speaker 3: the penalties that exists across most golf courses there.

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Speaker 2: What do you think that thinking consists of typically on

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Speaker 2: a PGA Tour course, because it doesn't seem like it's

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Speaker 2: thinking in the sense that golf course architecture nuts are

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Speaker 2: accustomed to thinking about it. What type of thinking goes

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Speaker 2: into it? Is it? Is it club selection? Primarily?

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Speaker 3: Certainly club selection? I mean teeing decisions is a huge one, right,

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Speaker 3: what do I take off the tea and what's the

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Speaker 3: thinking that goes into that? And there are a lot

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Speaker 3: of the decisions. Okay, how much is if I push

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Speaker 3: up a driver because I'm always going to start there.

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Speaker 3: That's start with driver off the tee and think about that.

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Speaker 3: Is there a penalty in play? If there's not a

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Speaker 3: penalty in play, the decision's done. All right, we're sending

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Speaker 3: driver and we're going to play off that. Now, if

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Speaker 3: there is a penalty on in play, well housing that penalty.

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Speaker 3: How much of a corridor do I have where the

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Speaker 3: penalty area exists? And if there's enough there, then it's like, okay,

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Speaker 3: let me step back a club and say what where

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Speaker 3: does that club put me? And go from there? Right,

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Speaker 3: The objective is with today's game, with the way the

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Speaker 3: rough is, the aerial in the and supporting an aerial

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Speaker 3: game in the greens, get it up as far as

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Speaker 3: possible as much as possible, you know, And that's ninety

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Speaker 3: percent of the golf courses they play. And then obviously

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Speaker 3: playing into the green. It depends on the length playing

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Speaker 3: into it, but typically these players are hitting mid irons

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Speaker 3: to short irons in so it's a it's a pretty

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Speaker 3: aggressive game even from there with the softness of the greens,

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Speaker 3: which again that was perplexing when he talks about firmness

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Speaker 3: where a lot of the a lot a decent amount

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Speaker 3: of the court course condition on the PGA tour is soft.

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Speaker 3: Now you do have your exceptions. Murfield gets pretty firm

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Speaker 3: as one example, when they can get it there. This

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Speaker 3: past year was definitely not that with the rain, but

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Speaker 3: you know, Jack likes to firm that up. I'm sure

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Speaker 3: a lot of his renovation that's going to happen. It's

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Speaker 3: going to be geared towards always having that the conditions.

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Speaker 3: But a lot of the courses, the greens are soft

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Speaker 3: enough that you know, pins are pretty accessible even when

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Speaker 3: they're tough, and that worse, you're just going a couple

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Speaker 3: feet inside of them, you know, five to ten feet

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Speaker 3: inside of a pin towards the bat side of the

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Speaker 3: green and playing from there. So a little bit of

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Speaker 3: thinking on that, but not a ton yeah.

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Speaker 1: That to me, it seems like the one of the

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Speaker 1: courses I hear the most talk about strategy on is

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Speaker 1: the YOUGC Mexico course Chapoltepec, which is all kind of

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Speaker 1: do you hit driver And to me, just from my observation,

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Speaker 1: it seems like that for the professional golfers is when

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Speaker 1: it when it impacts the t shot. That's how they

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Speaker 1: what they feel like strategy really is. That's kind of

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Speaker 1: the way they think about strategy versus an architecture nut

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Speaker 1: who thinks about angles and different things.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's completely accurate. And you know, I

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Speaker 3: have that architect nut as well as strategy and math

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Speaker 3: nut inside of me, and it drives the architect nut

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Speaker 3: inside of me crazy. Right that the best way to

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Speaker 3: challenge a tour player thinking off the tee is to

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Speaker 3: have penalty areas you know, call it trees, call it

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Speaker 3: bunkers or whatever, all the way up and down the

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Speaker 3: hole to force them to make a decision of how

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Speaker 3: aggressive they want to play. And Chapolo Peck is a

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Speaker 3: great example of that, where you know, we know from

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Speaker 3: dispersion driver three wood, two iron, it does doesn't matter

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Speaker 3: that much left the right, you're still getting pretty wide

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Speaker 3: with all three of those clubs that say, so, now

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Speaker 3: you have the situation where, well, all three of them

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Speaker 3: are going to bring in trees. So what do I

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Speaker 3: decide to do? How much do I take into that account?

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Speaker 3: And we saw a very different play down at Mexico

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Speaker 3: into to be supportive of that, we saw a nice

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Speaker 3: variance in leaderboard in terms of how people played the course,

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Speaker 3: you know, maybe a little better than we'd see in

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Speaker 3: other tournaments. So obviously still still privileges pushing up a

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Speaker 3: lot of cases, but we saw some nice variety there,

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Speaker 3: more so than maybe other tournaments.

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Speaker 2: And yet at CHAPULTAPEC the winners have generally been bombers,

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Speaker 2: but you saw variants in the kind of top tier.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think. I mean everybody, I mean everybody that

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Speaker 3: works in the strategy business will admit this, right, It's

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Speaker 3: you're never going to get around it being a bomber's paradise, right.

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Speaker 3: Bombers are all that's going to be a skill set

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Speaker 3: that's always well, especially with today's technology, is just going

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Speaker 3: to be rewarded and maybe someone will crack the code

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Speaker 3: of how to really break against that. But you're going

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Speaker 3: to see that. So you know, that's just where we're

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Speaker 3: at in terms of a game, and you're gonna expect

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Speaker 3: to see a bomber as a winner probably more often

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Speaker 3: than not. But yeah, really what's important is looking at

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Speaker 3: the top ten, the top twenty, right, because let's face it,

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Speaker 3: like the guys winning tournaments, they're all around great players, right,

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Speaker 3: most weekend week out. Yeah, we get a couple of

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Speaker 3: crap shots that come out and they just win a tournament, disappear,

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Speaker 3: or they get hot. You know, this point's been made

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Speaker 3: with Cameron Champa, and Andy's made this point several times

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Speaker 3: that he's that type of player that will probably get

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Speaker 3: hot for a couple of weeks, and if he does

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Speaker 3: that every year, he'll probably get a victory as well, right,

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Speaker 3: because he's got enough of a game and the distance

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Speaker 3: is privilege that he'll get there. But by and large,

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Speaker 3: the winners are just great golfers, you know, and the

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Speaker 3: week they win, yes, distance helps put them in position,

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Speaker 3: but they also are maybe outliers in the putting or

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Speaker 3: outliers and approach relative to their normal game, so they're

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Speaker 3: at least making it up in other areas and then

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Speaker 3: across the top ten or top twenty and see variance there.

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Speaker 3: I mean, that's just more compelling pro golf. Right if

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Speaker 3: at least we're seeing everybody up on the leaderboard be

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Speaker 3: a little different, it's a little bit more watchable, at

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Speaker 3: least to some of us that pay attention to that stuff.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's a misconception of is like the

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Speaker 1: you know, Hey, like this guy won because he hit

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Speaker 1: it far. But like, one of the things with distance

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Speaker 1: is that it's a constant skill, Like almost every other

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Speaker 1: skill on golf is variable. Like you might put bad today,

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Speaker 1: put well tomorrow. You know, you might be really accurate

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Speaker 1: with your driver today not tomorrow. Same with your irons.

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Speaker 1: But with the distance you have that every single day

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Speaker 1: you go to the golf course, which is something that

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Speaker 1: I think some people like tend to and that's always

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Speaker 1: going to be a huge advantage if you're long, But

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Speaker 1: it seems to me that it's become more and more

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Speaker 1: advantageous as you know, as players have gotten longer. In accuracy,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's to keep it on the plan. There's

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Speaker 1: less downside to hitting it far today than there used

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Speaker 1: to be or hitting it hard, So to.

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Speaker 3: Say, oh, yeah, I mean the hitting it far is

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Speaker 3: one comment we could expand on. But then just hitting

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Speaker 3: it hard as another one. Right, that brings into technology

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Speaker 3: issues and what the technology enables us to do in

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Speaker 3: terms of maximizing and optimizing the way we hit the

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Speaker 3: ball and what the ball spin ray does. Right, that's

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Speaker 3: the big question. Well, if we went back to say

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Speaker 3: per Simmon and a wound ball, Well, what would hitting

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Speaker 3: it hard look like? Could you act? What would optimizing

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Speaker 3: everything look like? And would it be manageable in a

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Speaker 3: way that you could still play the game at a

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Speaker 3: very competitive level. Because to your point, like in terms

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Speaker 3: of hitting it far, you know, when we look at

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Speaker 3: the strokes gained it and I don't know what it's

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Speaker 3: say over the last two years, but you know it's

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Speaker 3: basically approach where it's basically trended to where like to

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Speaker 3: be a top player, it's almost forty percent approach and

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Speaker 3: forty percent driving. You know, maybe you could argue thirty

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Speaker 3: five percent thirty five percent just in a sort of

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Speaker 3: upper echelon area, And question is is that good for

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Speaker 3: the game? Right? Like is you know, if I just said, okay,

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Speaker 3: from a mathematical standpoint, what would be Like Rory's comment

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Speaker 3: was what a complete player? I think, well, what would

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Speaker 3: be a complete player? Be the best players in the

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Speaker 3: world we or the like their trends would be okay,

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Speaker 3: twenty five percent strokes gain attributed to putting, twenty five

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Speaker 3: percent strokes gain attributed to around the green, twenty five

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Speaker 3: percent approach, twenty five percent driving, or you can match

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Speaker 3: the percent just to the number of strokes played from

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Speaker 3: those positions, right, So like if you play thirty percent

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Speaker 3: of your shots from around the green or on it, well,

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Speaker 3: thirty percent of a winner's category should come from those areas.

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Speaker 3: You know. Maybe that's something you know, that's fun to

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Speaker 3: think about in terms of what would we want a

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Speaker 3: complete player to be and what we how would we

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Speaker 3: want that privilege.

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Speaker 1: It's it's Rory's comments too when you talk when you

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Speaker 1: talk about complete player, and I think this gets lost

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Speaker 1: sometimes when everybody talks about Rory is like he is

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Speaker 1: one of the you know, albeit sometimes he struggles on

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Speaker 1: the green, he is as complete of a player as

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Speaker 1: you get. On the PGA Tour last year he ranked

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Speaker 1: in the top twenty five in every strokes game category,

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Speaker 1: and I think he's the only player that did that.

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Speaker 1: Adam Scott was close, but nobody else, you know, nobody

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Speaker 1: else really was close outside of Adam Scott to doing that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean going back to Rory's comments, right, It's

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Speaker 3: good that he's speaking out, and I would love to

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Speaker 3: know how much of it comes from a place of

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Speaker 3: him acknowledging and understanding that if there was ever such

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Speaker 3: a cal rollback, we're just stopping where we're at like

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Speaker 3: that only benefits him, benefits a player of his caliber

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Speaker 3: or someone like Adam Scott, the Tiger Woods of people

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Speaker 3: right that have the complete games, and I mean Ricky

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Speaker 3: I think Ricky Fowler is a great example as well.

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Speaker 3: That's someone that all around is a good player, does

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Speaker 3: a lot of things really well, can hit a lot

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Speaker 3: of golf shots, and sees a lot of golf shots. Right.

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Speaker 3: Those guys seagull shots more than other guys in terms

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Speaker 3: of just feeling comfortable in a golf course and seeing

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Speaker 3: a shape and how much they would benefit from something

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Speaker 3: that brought back more shape into the game and what

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Speaker 3: we would how would we see that correlay or associate

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Speaker 3: with different strokes, gained data in the statistics behind things.

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Speaker 2: So one of the things that became pretty clear from

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Speaker 2: Rory's comments is that he is thinking of strategy primarily

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Speaker 2: in terms of what we talked about earlier, what club

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Speaker 2: you play off the tee? Should you hit driver every time?

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Speaker 2: He seems to think that on European tour course setups

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Speaker 2: that there's not much of a question on the tee

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Speaker 2: as to what you're going to do, and that means

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Speaker 2: that he's thinking of strategy primarily along the vertical axis, right,

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Speaker 2: the why axis of a hole. How deep into the

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Speaker 2: hole should I push the ball in order to get

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Speaker 2: the best results. Architecture geeks, on the other hand, tend

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Speaker 2: to think of strategy more laterally along the X axis.

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Speaker 2: What side of the fairway do I want to be

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Speaker 2: on in order to open up a view of or

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Speaker 2: an angle into the green. Now, as somebody who has

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Speaker 2: a foot in both camps and the analytics camp as

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Speaker 2: well as in the golf architecture geekery camp, I'm curious

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Speaker 2: what you think about the claim that a lot of

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Speaker 2: analytics driven course management folks make about hunting angles and

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Speaker 2: the fact that that's not something that anybody should do

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Speaker 2: on a golf course, right, That you shouldn't be trying

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Speaker 2: to get to a particular side of the fairway, that

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Speaker 2: you should just sort of pick a target that makes

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Speaker 2: it least likely that you're going to find yourself in

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Speaker 2: a penalty hazard, and that essentially lateral strategy as architecture

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Speaker 2: folks have thought about it for over a century is irrelevant.

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Speaker 2: Do you agree with that? And could you explain that position?

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Speaker 3: Man, I'll put my best academic hat On and say

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Speaker 3: I don't agree or disagree with that, right that there's

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Speaker 3: it's sort of the position that we that we take

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Speaker 3: of all the different things we can go here, like

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Speaker 3: what do we want golf to be? How do we

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Speaker 3: perceive playing golf at what level? Is a sport raging

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Speaker 3: from a game? Like I thought your interview with Robert Crosby,

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Speaker 3: Bob Crosby's phenomenal, and you got into the sense of

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Speaker 3: like golf is a sport versus golf as an adventure,

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Speaker 3: and we could go down all those rabbit holes as

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Speaker 3: much as possible, But I'll start with just to think about, like, okay,

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Speaker 3: in terms of the pro game on the typical TPC

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Speaker 3: golf course, angles and that sort of stuff, even on

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Speaker 3: a even on a soft trinity for us, that's say

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Speaker 3: some of that's not super firm and the ball's not

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Speaker 3: getting away. Angles don't matter. I mean, it's an aerial game.

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Speaker 3: They they're playing along the y access they know how

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Speaker 3: far their ball carries. Picking up, you know, trying to

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Speaker 3: move over to an angle, but then having some of

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Speaker 3: your shot dispersion play into a bunker. That's just that's

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Speaker 3: not smart, right, You're better keeping that entire shot dispers

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Speaker 3: an out of the bunker and playing to the lowest

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Speaker 3: basically your lowest expected value. I saw that conversation with

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Speaker 3: Scott and some other people, you know, the idea of

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Speaker 3: blackjack was brought up, and it's a probability model, is

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Speaker 3: what it is, especially when there's no variable of a

405
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Speaker 3: ground game, right, and that your angle coming into a green.

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Speaker 3: I mean, how often do we see on the pro

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Speaker 3: game where there's a pin cut beside behind some slope

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Speaker 3: where coming from that angle over the slope, you can't

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Speaker 3: stop the ball at the pin. You just don't see

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Speaker 3: that out there, right, And that's the beauty of links

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Speaker 3: golf where you do have that, and you also have

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Speaker 3: playing corridors that allow that. Right, you can have an

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Speaker 3: eighty to ninety yard corridor where an average shot dispersion

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Speaker 3: for a driver is anywhere from you know, sixty to

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Speaker 3: seventy five yards. So you need that playing corridor to

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Speaker 3: move that around. If you're thinking just strictly from the

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Speaker 3: analytical probability model, you need a huge corridor and you

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Speaker 3: need to angle to actually matter. So you need to

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Speaker 3: turf conditions or to playing conditions to matter, or at

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Speaker 3: least yardage in just the matter too. You know, some

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Speaker 3: dog wags could get into it like a dog leg.

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Speaker 3: With a center line bunker combined with it, you might

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Speaker 3: be able to make up some differences there.

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Speaker 2: So should I guess there are two different questions here.

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Speaker 2: Should a player It sounds like it depends on the

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Speaker 2: course for you, and it depends on the conditions. But uh,

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Speaker 2: the one question is should a player ever find himself

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Speaker 2: or herself in the position of preferring a side of

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Speaker 2: the fairway in order to find a good angle into

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Speaker 2: into the green? Is that ever a tactically sound approach

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Speaker 2: to a golf hole? And then the other question, implied

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Speaker 2: on the other side of it is should architects be

433
00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:47,960
Speaker 2: designing courses that supposedly summon these decisions?

434
00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:51,160
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, so yeah, should you do that? It's rare

435
00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:53,240
Speaker 3: that you should actually be hunting angles. I mean, I'll

436
00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:55,439
Speaker 3: let go Scott Fawcett on that, right, Like, it's just

437
00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:58,000
Speaker 3: there's typically just not enough with where it actually matters.

438
00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:01,919
Speaker 3: You can't control your ballflight that well, So don't be like, oh,

439
00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:04,159
Speaker 3: I'm going to hug this bunker over here, because now

440
00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:06,520
Speaker 3: you're just bringing in the bunker where I mean aim

441
00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:08,359
Speaker 3: down the spair way and just play to that, and

442
00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:09,959
Speaker 3: then half your shots are going to end up over

443
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:11,520
Speaker 3: there and you'll get the good angle the other half

444
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:13,639
Speaker 3: or not the good angle. But guess what likely the

445
00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:16,040
Speaker 3: conditions are going to afford you playing a direct shot

446
00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:18,399
Speaker 3: to the whole. Anyways, if you're a high level player

447
00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:20,719
Speaker 3: on a typical course on what in terms of what

448
00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:26,639
Speaker 3: they play right now? I mean, should how to design

449
00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:29,240
Speaker 3: against that? It's I mean one aspect of it. It's

450
00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:32,280
Speaker 3: really hard because playable with right like in terms of

451
00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:36,119
Speaker 3: a player's dispersion, the designing for that, how wide a

452
00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:38,320
Speaker 3: hole would have to be. That's a really hard thing

453
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:42,000
Speaker 3: to design towards. But you can do it like what

454
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:44,720
Speaker 3: you're looking for. And this relates to a point Garrett,

455
00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:47,679
Speaker 3: that you made in the sort of driveable part four

456
00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:51,880
Speaker 3: article that you made. Okay, like, what would a good

457
00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:55,879
Speaker 3: like mathematical hole be that includes decision making? And this

458
00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:58,800
Speaker 3: could because of angles or it could be because of

459
00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:02,200
Speaker 3: distance the yax's how far do I push up them back?

460
00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:02,480
Speaker 1: Right?

461
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:05,399
Speaker 3: Like? I'll use a very simplistic version where there's just

462
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:09,320
Speaker 3: two options. Right, The really cool mathematical hole design that

463
00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:12,199
Speaker 3: would actually make people think that follow you know, some

464
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:14,480
Speaker 3: of the stuff I teach, and obviously Scott was Scott

465
00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:19,520
Speaker 3: teaches and some other people. In those two options, they

466
00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:21,560
Speaker 3: need to come out to the same average, so we'll

467
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:23,560
Speaker 3: just make up they come out to a four average.

468
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:26,600
Speaker 3: And for simplicity's sake, you say, well, one option, every

469
00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:29,760
Speaker 3: player would make a four from. In the other option,

470
00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:33,399
Speaker 3: every player would make a three or five from. So

471
00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:35,879
Speaker 3: you'd see the same average between the two options, but

472
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,680
Speaker 3: you'd see bigger variants in one of the options. First,

473
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:41,600
Speaker 3: the other one being a safe option where hey, not

474
00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:43,320
Speaker 3: much variance in you're scoring, you kind of know what

475
00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:45,960
Speaker 3: you're going to score from there, and then huge variants

476
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:48,280
Speaker 3: in the other option. And we could extrapolate that across

477
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:50,439
Speaker 3: you know, three or four different options of playing a

478
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:53,800
Speaker 3: hole and a different variance that you would see. So

479
00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:56,760
Speaker 3: in terms of strategy and mathematics, that would be an

480
00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:59,360
Speaker 3: ideal hold of design, which you could do by taking

481
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:02,399
Speaker 3: a look at stroke gain and positioning hazards. Think of

482
00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:05,720
Speaker 3: like where your ball lands, you haven't expected value from it,

483
00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:08,320
Speaker 3: and what kind of hazards could we put around those

484
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:11,119
Speaker 3: to change that to some number? And then if we

485
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:13,320
Speaker 3: pull back, okay, what can we do from there to

486
00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:15,919
Speaker 3: make it so it plays the same average as that

487
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:18,879
Speaker 3: other area, and you could go through and design of

488
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:20,639
Speaker 3: course like that. I have no idea how interesting that

489
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:23,840
Speaker 3: would come out or what. And again, we're designing for

490
00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:27,159
Speaker 3: the top point one percent of golfers. Is that something

491
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:29,480
Speaker 3: we really want to go down? Like, I don't care

492
00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:33,040
Speaker 3: what people say when they say, oh, change happens or whatever.

493
00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:35,760
Speaker 3: It's like, No, the top level game matters. It influences

494
00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:38,320
Speaker 3: the entire rest of the game. People watch it, people

495
00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:40,800
Speaker 3: pay attention to it. Golf clubs strive to be what

496
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:45,879
Speaker 3: tour courses are. I mean, they're the they're for better

497
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:48,040
Speaker 3: or worse, a big vocal part of our game, the

498
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:50,240
Speaker 3: top level players and what they do. So we can't

499
00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:54,399
Speaker 3: ignore that. So I hesitate to ever put down on

500
00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:56,800
Speaker 3: paper what you know, what it could be, because I mean,

501
00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:59,479
Speaker 3: that's the Pandora's box. If we put it down as

502
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:02,720
Speaker 3: soon as we are going down that level or that road,

503
00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:04,239
Speaker 3: I don't know if we end up in somewhere. We

504
00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:07,639
Speaker 3: want to be those of us that think about golf

505
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:09,720
Speaker 3: also as the game, as the adventure as you like

506
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,359
Speaker 3: to talk about, which which I really really care to

507
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:14,960
Speaker 3: do and I really value and think that's a that's

508
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:17,600
Speaker 3: what ultimately is healthy for the game, is that aspect

509
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,359
Speaker 3: of it because we're not we're not tour players. My

510
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:23,159
Speaker 3: game looks nothing like a lot of college coaches, a

511
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:25,320
Speaker 3: lot of college coach kids I work with, and it

512
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:28,120
Speaker 3: definitely looks nothing like a tour players game. And I'm

513
00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:32,680
Speaker 3: an okay golfer, so I hesitate to ever to ever, Yeah,

514
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:35,760
Speaker 3: push towards something that really just privileges the pro game.

515
00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:42,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, talk about how strategy is different for say, the

516
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:47,280
Speaker 1: lower trajectory, lower spend players, And do you have any experience, say,

517
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:52,600
Speaker 1: like contrast, have you ever advised on like an LPGA player,

518
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:58,280
Speaker 1: semester tour player, or even a women's college team, and

519
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:02,439
Speaker 1: comparing contrast that with the elite men's game, whether it

520
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:04,000
Speaker 1: be college or professional.

521
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:07,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, you see a couple of different things. The most

522
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 3: striking is honestly dispersion a little bit lower spin, lower

523
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:15,840
Speaker 3: trajectory player. And I'm thinking primarily an LPGA game, a

524
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:20,080
Speaker 3: college female game here that the dispersion is tighter, especially

525
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:22,480
Speaker 3: playing in the greens with irons and even off the tees,

526
00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:26,760
Speaker 3: because I mean, I'm not super well versed in terms

527
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,159
Speaker 3: of engineering and physics. I did a physics background. This

528
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 3: is my batcher's degree, but that doesn't make me an expert,

529
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:33,760
Speaker 3: so I can't. Everything I'm doing is kind of spit

530
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:34,760
Speaker 3: ball a little bit from just.

531
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:38,560
Speaker 2: Talking yeah we need to Yeah, yeah.

532
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:43,000
Speaker 3: I should, I should know. If I adopted his attitude,

533
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:45,040
Speaker 3: I would just sit here and just pull the chalkboard

534
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:47,720
Speaker 3: and start talking about I don't know, optimal spin rates

535
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:51,879
Speaker 3: or something. Uh, but yeah, they're they're a lot tighter.

536
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:56,480
Speaker 3: So in that way, there's a little bit, honestly, less

537
00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:59,760
Speaker 3: strategy involved in that. It's easier to just say like, hey,

538
00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:02,640
Speaker 3: you can it really really straight? And now playing into

539
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:04,600
Speaker 3: the green, there's a little bit more thinking to be

540
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:08,480
Speaker 3: done because the positions matter a little bit more. Conditioning

541
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:10,560
Speaker 3: matters a little bit more, slopes matter a little bit

542
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:12,840
Speaker 3: more when you're play into the green at a lower

543
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 3: trajectory in the ball is going to be on the

544
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:17,000
Speaker 3: ground and running a little bit. Where the ball lands

545
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:20,280
Speaker 3: matters a little bit more. And understanding that, Okay, the

546
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:23,479
Speaker 3: short shot in my dispersion pattern, here's the consequences of it.

547
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:26,440
Speaker 3: The long shot in my dispersion pattern, here's the consequences

548
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:28,240
Speaker 3: of it. What does this mean for playing into this

549
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:30,679
Speaker 3: green and how I need to play into say a

550
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:33,800
Speaker 3: front pin, back pin, left, right, and so on. And

551
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 3: you compare that versus a tour player that's stopping things

552
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 3: primarily with trajectory, and those questions aren't playing into green

553
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:42,920
Speaker 3: or the longer is are no longer as much of

554
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:45,560
Speaker 3: a concern because if we're stopping it with trajectory and

555
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:48,040
Speaker 3: the conditions are allowing that when the ball comes in,

556
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:51,480
Speaker 3: it's kind of selling down where it is, right, even

557
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:53,920
Speaker 3: in terms of my own game like that, that's the

558
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:56,480
Speaker 3: transition I've seen a lot in it that playing into

559
00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:58,600
Speaker 3: a green is just I don't have to think too much,

560
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:00,400
Speaker 3: like I don't worry about the ball getting away from

561
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,080
Speaker 3: me once it gets on the ground, which is, you know,

562
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,720
Speaker 3: very different from experience that, say, overseas. I think that's

563
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 3: a little bit more a kin you know, if you

564
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 3: think of a PGA tour player playing overseas on really

565
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:14,440
Speaker 3: really firm conditions, that may be more kin to an

566
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:19,080
Speaker 3: LPGA player and how they're playing into the greens. But again,

567
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:21,880
Speaker 3: it's a great example of how technology has helped the

568
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:24,120
Speaker 3: highest wing speeds. Right, That's where you see the biggest

569
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:27,520
Speaker 3: dividends in ms in terms of what we see.

570
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:31,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I mean in terms of like the Since

571
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:36,240
Speaker 1: two thousand and three, LPGA Tour players have only gained

572
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 1: three yards of distance compared to eighteen on the web,

573
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:44,960
Speaker 1: which would point towards you know this it in a

574
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:50,560
Speaker 1: way is from what I'm gathering, it's becoming the distance

575
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:54,120
Speaker 1: is creating more interest from the pro game off the

576
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 1: t and less into the green, whereas the women's game

577
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:04,360
Speaker 1: would have less interest off the team, more interest into

578
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 1: the green and than not.

579
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:10,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely more strategy thinking in the green, just more variability,

580
00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:10,720
Speaker 3: that's there.

581
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:16,360
Speaker 1: So it with with regards to like the normal person,

582
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:20,480
Speaker 1: Let's just would you say, obviously dispersions get wider with

583
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 1: handicap levels, but also swing speeds create lower trajectories, you know,

584
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:31,040
Speaker 1: like lower swing speeds, lower trajectories, less spin. Is strategy

585
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:39,440
Speaker 1: for your regular golfer more or less important than the

586
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:40,440
Speaker 1: the tour pro?

587
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:45,040
Speaker 3: Now? Do more or less important? Is the question?

588
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:49,760
Speaker 1: I'm saying strategy have more impact on the high level

589
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:55,600
Speaker 1: pro or the you know, ten fifteen handicap at the club.

590
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:01,480
Speaker 3: I mean in terms of that, well, yes, just mathematically

591
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:03,720
Speaker 3: it has to write there's more to be gained at

592
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 3: a fifteen handicapper in terms of improving their game. And

593
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 3: there's a lot of things you can do to see

594
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:12,560
Speaker 3: pretty significant dividends right away, right just sitting down and

595
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 3: playing around with them and looking at the decisions they make.

596
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 3: It's all with a fifteen handicapper, you can almost guarantee

597
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:21,120
Speaker 3: saving them one to two shots just strictly on what

598
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:23,760
Speaker 3: they're trying to accomplish when they're hitting a golf shot. Right.

599
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:26,840
Speaker 3: Use my dad as example. You know he's getting older,

600
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:28,720
Speaker 3: and you know two twenty two to ten used to

601
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:30,440
Speaker 3: be a shot he would get to the green every time,

602
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 3: and now he tries to pull out the three wood

603
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:35,760
Speaker 3: and hit it and it just doesn't do anything positive.

604
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 3: So when I or whatever I'm playing with him in

605
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:40,200
Speaker 3: like a best ball, then it's like that, just hit

606
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 3: it up there one hundred and eighty yards and play

607
00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:43,880
Speaker 3: from there, right, and the scoring average comes down. It's

608
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:47,800
Speaker 3: pretty natural. And also just every player good or bad

609
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:50,000
Speaker 3: things there, they hit tighter golf shots than they do

610
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 3: so definitely just in terms of a dispersion pattern for

611
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 3: any handicapper to understand, like, okay, on your best day,

612
00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:01,480
Speaker 3: the quote I always uses on your best day, you're

613
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:04,720
Speaker 3: worse than you think you are because your dispersion pattern

614
00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:07,040
Speaker 3: is always in play. Like even on our best rounds

615
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:08,920
Speaker 3: in our life, we typically hit a foul ball somewhere.

616
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:11,160
Speaker 3: We just often forget about it because we hit it

617
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 3: from the trees and made a birdie. So that's something

618
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:16,400
Speaker 3: they can always take into play. On the flip side

619
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:19,320
Speaker 3: of that, at the top level, everything exists on the margins.

620
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:22,200
Speaker 3: It's essentially f one racing at the pro level or

621
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:26,240
Speaker 3: high level college, at the top level of college, because

622
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:29,479
Speaker 3: you can't gain a shot. You just can't. You're already

623
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 3: you know, the top level college players already shooting sixty nine, seventy,

624
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 3: sixty eight, sixty six, sixty five, sixty seven. It's just

625
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:39,200
Speaker 3: you're not going to pick up a full shot somewhere.

626
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:40,480
Speaker 3: But you have to pick up a tenth of a

627
00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 3: shot or a fifth of a shot, or a half

628
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:44,880
Speaker 3: of a shot over the course of one round or

629
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:49,120
Speaker 3: two rounds. So just in terms of an absolute difference,

630
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 3: I mean, it definitely can make more progress at the

631
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:54,720
Speaker 3: top or at the higher handicap level than the lower

632
00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 3: handicap level, but it's still making a difference.

633
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:03,560
Speaker 2: So taking a step back from the kind of business

634
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:11,160
Speaker 2: of applying analytics to course management. I think your relationship

635
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 2: to golf is really interesting. You know, obviously we've talked

636
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 2: a lot about these issues, and you are maybe more

637
00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:25,520
Speaker 2: romantic about golf than anybody I know. You just love it.

638
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:29,320
Speaker 2: You believe in the spirit of the game, You love

639
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:33,760
Speaker 2: the walk, you love the adventure, and that comes through

640
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 2: in everything you do and say. But at the same time,

641
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:44,840
Speaker 2: you are very well qualified in mathematics, in analytics, and

642
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 2: you are on a venture right now to demystify the

643
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:57,840
Speaker 2: strategy of the game, right which is essentially a rationalist enterprise.

644
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:02,520
Speaker 2: Do you have or feel those two parts of yourself

645
00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:03,560
Speaker 2: coming into conflict?

646
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 3: The short answer is yes in a lot of ways though, Yeah,

647
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:13,800
Speaker 3: So like this is what romanticism versus rationalism in a

648
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:16,360
Speaker 3: lot of ways. And what's cool is, you know, we

649
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:19,480
Speaker 3: create these dichotomies as if they're opposed. A lot of

650
00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:24,160
Speaker 3: times they work together or in fact coexists. So golf

651
00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:25,600
Speaker 3: is one of the I think golf, I mean, golf

652
00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:27,240
Speaker 3: is a great example of that for so many reasons,

653
00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:29,399
Speaker 3: especially the personal venture of it. But if we think

654
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:32,359
Speaker 3: of like the romanticism rationalism sort of ideas on it.

655
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:36,520
Speaker 3: So in terms of the romantic aspect, yes, we have

656
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:39,160
Speaker 3: this huge emotional attachment. Golf is an adventure and it

657
00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 3: takes us on this sort of spiritual, soulful walk that

658
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:45,919
Speaker 3: makes us challenge ourselves and really pulls out the worst

659
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:47,759
Speaker 3: of us and the best of us all at once, right,

660
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:52,719
Speaker 3: really exposes our ego, our moral character, everything that we

661
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:55,520
Speaker 3: do in it. Right, we're always facing difficulties, having successes

662
00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:58,399
Speaker 3: and having to respond to those. But at the same time,

663
00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:01,360
Speaker 3: like when we think about it, especially a lot of

664
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 3: the conversations you know, the three of us have and

665
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:08,520
Speaker 3: amongst our friends and ourselves, you can't just rely on

666
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:11,799
Speaker 3: those responses to dictate, well, what's good for the game,

667
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:15,160
Speaker 3: what's good for me as a person? You know, what's healthy? Right,

668
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:17,479
Speaker 3: Because addiction is a great example of if you don't

669
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:20,320
Speaker 3: question things, it's easy to become addicted to something because

670
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:22,080
Speaker 3: you just yeah, this is great, this is great, this

671
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:24,839
Speaker 3: is great. Stimulus, stimulus, stimulus, and all of a sudden

672
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:27,080
Speaker 3: you're addicted to whatever it is that you're getting involved with.

673
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:29,359
Speaker 3: In golf's the same way where we have to think about, okay, well,

674
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:31,719
Speaker 3: what is in terms of the tent in the game

675
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:34,440
Speaker 3: and the things that enable it to have this character

676
00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 3: in this soul, like what enables that? And now that

677
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:40,280
Speaker 3: moves into more of a rationalist, you know, rationalism type

678
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:42,840
Speaker 3: of mindset where I need to break down my own thinking,

679
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:45,799
Speaker 3: my own experiences and what contributes to us. And so

680
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:48,040
Speaker 3: I can take the same aspect with the strategy side

681
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:50,640
Speaker 3: of it, where yes, there's some days where it's like, man,

682
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:53,560
Speaker 3: especially as I'm doing like a Reese Jones course or something,

683
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:55,279
Speaker 3: where it's just like what I'm like, what am I

684
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:57,839
Speaker 3: doing here? This is this is boring, and this is

685
00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 3: not enjoyable for me. Yes, this is challenging for the

686
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 3: players and creates the good par score or whatever it

687
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:06,759
Speaker 3: is you want to say it does, but what's going

688
00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:08,800
Speaker 3: on here? And that gives me an opportunity to inject

689
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:11,920
Speaker 3: some of the romanticism of the game into it. When

690
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:15,359
Speaker 3: I'm working with especially individual players, to help help them

691
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:18,480
Speaker 3: understand the architecture that's there, what they're seeing on the

692
00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:20,920
Speaker 3: golf hole, what makes it, what makes really a compelling

693
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:23,839
Speaker 3: golf hole versus what makes something that's just very formulating,

694
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:27,160
Speaker 3: and help clarifying their own think you know, these like

695
00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:31,440
Speaker 3: even these top level players, they'll build play say a

696
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:36,880
Speaker 3: core Crunshaw, a Pinehurst, a pine Valley, A name your

697
00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:40,000
Speaker 3: pasta Tampo that say, they'll play those and just think, man,

698
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:43,200
Speaker 3: what an awesome experience that was. That was that was amazing.

699
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:45,400
Speaker 3: But then I'll go play all their tournament golf courses

700
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:47,840
Speaker 3: and to them that's also a great experience or whatever.

701
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:51,960
Speaker 3: So helping them be reflective and thinking about, like, what

702
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:54,719
Speaker 3: was so amazing about pasa tempo posita tampa? You said

703
00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:56,880
Speaker 3: you love that? Why did you love that so much?

704
00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:00,640
Speaker 3: So I enjoy the sort of teaching us side of

705
00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:03,439
Speaker 3: the strategy management where I can take it a little

706
00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:05,360
Speaker 3: deeper than just how to play a golf course, but

707
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:08,120
Speaker 3: also thinking about the design of a golf course, what

708
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:11,480
Speaker 3: goes into it and what really piques their interests the most,

709
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:15,280
Speaker 3: you know, So that moves from that kind of blends

710
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:17,920
Speaker 3: the two together to maybe help them become more romantic

711
00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:19,560
Speaker 3: with the game in terms of the course design and

712
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:23,919
Speaker 3: understanding why why architecture is important even if it doesn't

713
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:26,719
Speaker 3: challenge their game. Right, if they go play a Corey

714
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:29,319
Speaker 3: Creutshaw that's not set up very difficult, it's not going

715
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:32,800
Speaker 3: to challenge that much, but they can still hopefully appreciate

716
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:35,160
Speaker 3: the golf course for why it's there outside of their

717
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:38,640
Speaker 3: own own golf game plane and even experience the experience

718
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:42,480
Speaker 3: or even enjoy the experiences that they had and say, hey,

719
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:46,080
Speaker 3: I shot sixty two there, but the andyes, adjusted par point,

720
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:48,760
Speaker 3: maybe sixty two was my adjusted park for that golf

721
00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:51,600
Speaker 3: course because of the playing conditions that were there. And yeah,

722
00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:53,560
Speaker 3: that webshot that I had to take off a backboard

723
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:55,160
Speaker 3: and suck back, Yeah, it was easy to get the

724
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:58,000
Speaker 3: five feet. That was awesome to do. And I should

725
00:37:58,000 --> 00:37:59,480
Speaker 3: get that the five feet. But if I would have

726
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:02,480
Speaker 3: messed up, have sucked it back off the green, and

727
00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:04,480
Speaker 3: I would have not made Bertie, So you know, get

728
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:07,520
Speaker 3: him to appreciate those sorts of things. It is something

729
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:10,759
Speaker 3: that I enjoyed doing as part of the the analytics

730
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:11,480
Speaker 3: side of things.

731
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:18,640
Speaker 1: So on the Shock, something about making Dunhill Part sixty

732
00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 1: seven for the pros and if they had done that,

733
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:25,600
Speaker 1: the winning score would have been I think two under.

734
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:30,040
Speaker 1: Would Rory have had the same comments if the winning

735
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:31,400
Speaker 1: score was two under.

736
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:35,920
Speaker 3: Rory, I don't know if he would have, because I

737
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:37,600
Speaker 3: do believe a lot of his reaction was in the

738
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:40,200
Speaker 3: moment being frustrated with his own finishes. I do think

739
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:43,480
Speaker 3: he's also smart enough to be like, yeah, part doesn't matter.

740
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:47,640
Speaker 3: So I'm sure he probably wouldn't have had the same reaction,

741
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:52,320
Speaker 3: but I know a lot of a lot of people

742
00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:53,879
Speaker 3: it would, and a lot of tour players it would

743
00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:56,560
Speaker 3: influence that reaction. What part was right if you changed

744
00:38:56,560 --> 00:38:58,960
Speaker 3: part to on them all of a sudden, all of

745
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:01,680
Speaker 3: a sudden, a hard hole becomes easy or an easy

746
00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:05,960
Speaker 3: hole becomes hard. It was that I forget what tournament

747
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:07,919
Speaker 3: was last year, and I was sitting there and there's

748
00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:10,400
Speaker 3: a college team talking about it and they changed the

749
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:12,840
Speaker 3: par five to part four and one of the players

750
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:15,640
Speaker 3: was like, man, that hole is so hard and it

751
00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:17,960
Speaker 3: used to be an easy Part five and like it's like, no,

752
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:20,839
Speaker 3: it's the same hole. It's literally the same hole that's there.

753
00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:25,799
Speaker 3: So so yeah, definitely part And I mean even on

754
00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:28,680
Speaker 3: the psychology side, right, the loss of verse sort of

755
00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:31,800
Speaker 3: nature of people changes how they play. Even though it shouldn't,

756
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:32,520
Speaker 3: it still does.

757
00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:37,480
Speaker 2: So what are some of your thoughts about how professional

758
00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:42,239
Speaker 2: golf could be more interesting than it is now, or

759
00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:46,000
Speaker 2: maybe you think the professional golf still still is interesting

760
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:49,759
Speaker 2: in a sense. But in what you're saying before about

761
00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:55,719
Speaker 2: the differences between competitive and recreational golf and the places

762
00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:59,839
Speaker 2: of a rationalist approach and a romantic approach in one

763
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:03,880
Speaker 2: or the other, it struck me that in competitive golf

764
00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:10,120
Speaker 2: there is a distinct lack of mystery and romance about it.

765
00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:14,520
Speaker 2: That so much is known now about the golf swing

766
00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:19,719
Speaker 2: and about course management, for instance, that players are very

767
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:23,279
Speaker 2: rarely at a loss, players are very rarely dealing with

768
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:28,200
Speaker 2: ambiguity and mystery, and there is a kind of business

769
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:34,360
Speaker 2: like efficiency in the way that the best players approach golf.

770
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:38,400
Speaker 2: And to me, it reads very clearly through the television

771
00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:41,640
Speaker 2: that that's happening, and it makes me lose a little

772
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:44,480
Speaker 2: bit of interest. Does it make you lose interest in

773
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:50,399
Speaker 2: the same way? And if not, why, and then? And

774
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:54,319
Speaker 2: what are some of your thoughts about how some intrigue

775
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:56,920
Speaker 2: and mystery could return to the game.

776
00:40:57,600 --> 00:40:59,080
Speaker 3: I mean, we've got to start talking more about air

777
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:00,400
Speaker 3: density and what that does to.

778
00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:07,600
Speaker 2: That's what the people want, right, No, oh.

779
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:11,400
Speaker 3: Man, this is so. I mean, a lot of personal

780
00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:13,920
Speaker 3: preference is going to come out here in terms of

781
00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:17,920
Speaker 3: yes to all of those points. But I'm not I'm

782
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:22,160
Speaker 3: in terms of explain my personal preference. It's not like, oh,

783
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:24,120
Speaker 3: this is going to solve all the problem. It's more like,

784
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:28,080
Speaker 3: I think it actually would support this more exploration or

785
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:31,080
Speaker 3: re exploration of the game and what it means to

786
00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:35,480
Speaker 3: optimize it. Right where, Okay, I'll start with this is

787
00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:38,239
Speaker 3: one of the pieces of evidence in the premise for it.

788
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:43,080
Speaker 3: So with distance gains, distance gains aren't absolute, they're relative, right,

789
00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:44,920
Speaker 3: So it's not like, oh, all of us shifted up

790
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:47,600
Speaker 3: ten yards. No, that's not how it worked. That's how

791
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:49,399
Speaker 3: it worked. You know, that wouldn't be such a big deal.

792
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:51,520
Speaker 3: But it's like, no, you have you know, maybe I

793
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:54,200
Speaker 3: gained five, but someone ahead of me gain eight yards

794
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:56,600
Speaker 3: and someone maybe had that because of ball speed, gained

795
00:41:56,640 --> 00:41:59,960
Speaker 3: twelve yards. Right, So like the absolute difference is between

796
00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:05,440
Speaker 3: the distance change. The distance differences have grown an increase, right,

797
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:09,000
Speaker 3: which in terms of like the spirit of yeah, I believe, yes,

798
00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:11,640
Speaker 3: pros play a different game, but it's much cooler when

799
00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:13,959
Speaker 3: we kind of it kind of resembles what the game

800
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:17,319
Speaker 3: we play, right, So we lose that there on one

801
00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:18,959
Speaker 3: piece of the argument. So I would like to see

802
00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:21,080
Speaker 3: that shrunk down. So that obviously brings in the idea

803
00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:23,960
Speaker 3: of rollback in some sort of form, regardless if it's

804
00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:28,520
Speaker 3: shrunken driver, heads, wound and ball for Simon, Ballata Hickorys.

805
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:30,439
Speaker 3: But we could sit here and argue all day about

806
00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:33,160
Speaker 3: what we want to go back to. But I do

807
00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:36,640
Speaker 3: I do think there's some viability in that, in that argument,

808
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:39,239
Speaker 3: in terms of rolling back to something and changing in

809
00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:43,920
Speaker 3: technology somehow, if if some of the principles that are

810
00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:46,040
Speaker 3: wrapped up in the game or something we really value

811
00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:47,560
Speaker 3: and want to see in the pro game as well.

812
00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:49,840
Speaker 3: And now on the flip side of that, this idea

813
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:55,080
Speaker 3: of expiration and optimization and just making the game inquisitive again,

814
00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:58,000
Speaker 3: I would I could see that as a significant strength

815
00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:00,640
Speaker 3: that movement and actually doing it, because it would even

816
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:05,160
Speaker 3: for the OEMs, open up a whole new revenue in pursuit. Right, Oh, shoot,

817
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:07,759
Speaker 3: we're going back to this technology. Well, frankly, let's say

818
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:10,000
Speaker 3: it's persimmon. Let's just go there. We'll say it's Persimmon

819
00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:13,240
Speaker 3: with a lot of balls. And that's not a personal

820
00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:15,080
Speaker 3: preference in mind to go to that version of it,

821
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:17,280
Speaker 3: but let's say that's what it is. All of a sudden,

822
00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:19,520
Speaker 3: everybody in the game of golf at a high level

823
00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:22,759
Speaker 3: is to think how do I optimize that technology? Right?

824
00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:25,880
Speaker 3: What does my swing speed need to be? Like? Can

825
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:29,560
Speaker 3: I actually have this huge swing speed with you know,

826
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:32,080
Speaker 3: hitting up on the ball trying to launch at this angle?

827
00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:35,160
Speaker 3: All that has to be figured out again? And what

828
00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:37,120
Speaker 3: does that mean in terms of how the game's played?

829
00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:39,440
Speaker 3: How does course conditioning now play a role in that?

830
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:42,319
Speaker 3: It would just sort of open up a new you know,

831
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:44,399
Speaker 3: path to go down and have to figure out, which

832
00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:46,600
Speaker 3: I think could be could be exciting. You know a

833
00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:49,200
Speaker 3: lot of people talk about it, we'll turn people from

834
00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:51,200
Speaker 3: away from the game, And I don't know if I

835
00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:53,080
Speaker 3: buy that argument. I think Bob spook to this a

836
00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:56,680
Speaker 3: little bit on the on his his podcast that maybe

837
00:43:56,719 --> 00:43:58,600
Speaker 3: in a short term you'd have a few people leave,

838
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:01,960
Speaker 3: but really would they? I mean, is if all of

839
00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:04,319
Speaker 3: a sudden you put for Simon in the fifteen handicappers' hands,

840
00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:07,680
Speaker 3: is it really going to change their one just their

841
00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:10,120
Speaker 3: scoring and how they play the game, but also their enjoyment?

842
00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:12,040
Speaker 3: Is that are they really playing the game because they

843
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:14,160
Speaker 3: have a four hundred and sixty cc tailor made in

844
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:17,680
Speaker 3: their hands? Where they playing it for other reasons? You know,

845
00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:21,080
Speaker 3: would and that's and also for Simon has great self

846
00:44:21,080 --> 00:44:24,080
Speaker 3: correction off the face. People people think like, oh, the

847
00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:26,480
Speaker 3: argument for rolling back stuff means like, oh, you're going

848
00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:28,239
Speaker 3: to hit it one hundred and fifty yards off line.

849
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:31,360
Speaker 3: That's not the case. It actually brings more variability in

850
00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:33,560
Speaker 3: the y axis if anything. Right, that's where we see

851
00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:37,239
Speaker 3: huge variability where with the current drivers. Right, it's like, well,

852
00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:39,080
Speaker 3: I hit the heel, I hit the toe, I hit

853
00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:40,400
Speaker 3: off the top of the face, I hit off the

854
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:42,040
Speaker 3: bob in the face. Oh, I hit on the toe

855
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:44,319
Speaker 3: on the hot spot. I mean, the balls flying pretty

856
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:45,080
Speaker 3: similar distance.

857
00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:49,399
Speaker 1: It's I've got so many buddies that are relatively new

858
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:51,680
Speaker 1: to the game but young, and they you know, some

859
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:55,200
Speaker 1: of them swing a pretty pretty like well in terms

860
00:44:55,200 --> 00:45:00,319
Speaker 1: of speed, and the distance that they launched the ball

861
00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:05,160
Speaker 1: offline is astounding to me. I've never seen the ball

862
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:09,520
Speaker 1: go so far offline. Then with one of my buddies

863
00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:13,880
Speaker 1: and it's like, and I gave him my per Simon

864
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:17,200
Speaker 1: driver the last time we played, and he hit like

865
00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:20,080
Speaker 1: three shots with it, and the worst one was only

866
00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:23,560
Speaker 1: like thirty yards off line, because like it can't go

867
00:45:23,719 --> 00:45:25,680
Speaker 1: as far off line, I.

868
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:28,120
Speaker 3: Mean per Simmon, like in terms of the result and

869
00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:30,880
Speaker 3: the what we're looking for per Simon, were the original

870
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:35,480
Speaker 3: twist face right like they like they self corrected balls

871
00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:37,600
Speaker 3: off of them because of the way the face was

872
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:40,040
Speaker 3: curved with the way the ball performed like it worked

873
00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:41,960
Speaker 3: together that when you hit a toad for Simmon right,

874
00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:44,359
Speaker 3: it starts right kurves left. If you hit the heeled

875
00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:47,680
Speaker 3: for Simon, it starts left and curves right. It was

876
00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:51,000
Speaker 3: just may like just for whatever reason, the materials did that.

877
00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:54,480
Speaker 2: So, yeah, that doesn't go very far, but it kind

878
00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:56,839
Speaker 2: of it stays in play. Whenever I think of this,

879
00:45:56,920 --> 00:45:59,279
Speaker 2: I think of this guy that I played with a

880
00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:02,920
Speaker 2: pasim but not somebody that I knew beforehand, and he

881
00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:10,440
Speaker 2: honestly launched fifteen balls into the middle of neighborhoods. He

882
00:46:10,520 --> 00:46:13,800
Speaker 2: was swinging so hard, had no idea where it was going,

883
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:16,520
Speaker 2: and the ball went enormously high up into the air

884
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:20,960
Speaker 2: and was just dropping bombs in the middle of the

885
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:25,040
Speaker 2: surrounding neighborhoods at Pasa Tiempo over and over and over again.

886
00:46:25,120 --> 00:46:28,760
Speaker 2: I was just watching this guys. He needs a driver

887
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:31,919
Speaker 2: that doesn't go as far. He would score so much

888
00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:34,759
Speaker 2: better and also there would be less death and property

889
00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:38,040
Speaker 2: damage in the wake of his playing this golf course.

890
00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:42,399
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, it's I mean, how many people even talk

891
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:45,239
Speaker 3: about that senior golfer in their league that's seventy and

892
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:47,760
Speaker 3: just hits it dead down the middle one point eighty,

893
00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:50,080
Speaker 3: hits it up by the green and just whips them

894
00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:51,880
Speaker 3: to no end even though they're trying to blast it

895
00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:54,520
Speaker 3: to seventy. Right, it's well, you could kind of have

896
00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:56,520
Speaker 3: that a little bit more than you do if we

897
00:46:56,840 --> 00:46:59,040
Speaker 3: made some changes to technology and what it does.

898
00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:02,799
Speaker 1: I feel like that golfer is like the envy of

899
00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:06,520
Speaker 1: all golfers too, which is so ironic that like, everybody's

900
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:09,000
Speaker 1: in this pursuit for hitting it far, but really the

901
00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:11,759
Speaker 1: golfer they envy the most is the guy that's like

902
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:13,600
Speaker 1: the steady grinder at their club.

903
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:17,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's actually absolutely comical.

904
00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:20,560
Speaker 2: It seems like a fun way to play the game

905
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:23,840
Speaker 2: when you see it in action, And that sort of

906
00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:27,160
Speaker 2: leads me to something I wanted to get your thoughts on. Recently,

907
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:31,560
Speaker 2: you participated, maybe even organized, I don't know, you seem

908
00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:34,279
Speaker 2: to be organizing a lot of things these days. The

909
00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:38,760
Speaker 2: oil hardened Classic run under the auspices of the Eternal

910
00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:42,680
Speaker 2: Summer Golf Society, I believe at Sweeten's Cove, and the

911
00:47:42,719 --> 00:47:48,160
Speaker 2: notion was to have everybody play with persimmon woods and

912
00:47:48,480 --> 00:47:52,560
Speaker 2: bladed irons and see what would happen. You were involved

913
00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:56,879
Speaker 2: in this, right, and how was that experience? What did

914
00:47:56,880 --> 00:47:57,560
Speaker 2: you learn from it?

915
00:47:58,239 --> 00:48:00,839
Speaker 3: Yeah? I can't take credit for organizing, that's uh. Peter

916
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:03,880
Speaker 3: Schmidt is a good friend of mine, writer for w

917
00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:07,360
Speaker 3: r X, now going to graduate school, get into turf business,

918
00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:10,200
Speaker 3: just to just I mean, another just soulful guy that

919
00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:12,880
Speaker 3: just loves golf for all the right reasons across the

920
00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:16,440
Speaker 3: board to an equipment junkie as well. Right, he is

921
00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:19,400
Speaker 3: a huge equipment junkie. So yeah, he and I did

922
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:22,080
Speaker 3: a little bit of background soundboard for him in terms

923
00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:25,080
Speaker 3: of putting it together, but definitely his his venture. Yeah,

924
00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:27,520
Speaker 3: we brought together a bunch of guys. Just it's exactly

925
00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:29,640
Speaker 3: what you said. We're gonna play for simmon, We're gonna

926
00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:33,239
Speaker 3: play blades. Uh, those are the rules. Whatever ball you want,

927
00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:36,440
Speaker 3: modern or not, that's fine. Every other you know, rules

928
00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:39,440
Speaker 3: on board, modern putter, old putter, however you want to

929
00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:41,359
Speaker 3: do that, that's fine. You know. Jeremy is Louis Little

930
00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:45,439
Speaker 3: Golf helped us out participate in it as well. Uh.

931
00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:47,480
Speaker 3: And we just brought a guys with two teams sort

932
00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:49,960
Speaker 3: of Ryder Cup style where we did going back to

933
00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:52,400
Speaker 3: the spirit of the game, four ball, alternate shut and

934
00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:55,120
Speaker 3: foursomes in the morning and we played singles matches in

935
00:48:55,160 --> 00:48:57,480
Speaker 3: the afternoon and just and just had a blast. And

936
00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:00,200
Speaker 3: I think sweet a place like Sweeten's Code. If you

937
00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:02,200
Speaker 3: talk to me, I talked too much about the place,

938
00:49:02,719 --> 00:49:04,960
Speaker 3: you know, It's one of my spirit courses in love

939
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:08,319
Speaker 3: with it. Just appreciate what Rob Patrick and Tadd and

940
00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:11,080
Speaker 3: everybody created there. But playing a place like that, I

941
00:49:11,120 --> 00:49:15,240
Speaker 3: think really helps accentuate the benefits of plane the golf

942
00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:18,040
Speaker 3: that style, with the trajectory, they'll they'll run out the

943
00:49:18,080 --> 00:49:20,640
Speaker 3: ground game a little bit more. Just how much? How

944
00:49:20,719 --> 00:49:23,520
Speaker 3: much more you notice? You know, I've played I don't

945
00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:26,239
Speaker 3: know how many times I've gone around Sweeten's probably one

946
00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:29,440
Speaker 3: hundred at this point or so. And that was. Honestly,

947
00:49:29,640 --> 00:49:32,520
Speaker 3: I've never seen it in that way. I've played Hickory's

948
00:49:32,520 --> 00:49:34,720
Speaker 3: on it. I'm not a great Hickory golfer, so I can't.

949
00:49:34,920 --> 00:49:37,680
Speaker 3: I'm sure Tad King has already seen Sweetens the way

950
00:49:37,680 --> 00:49:40,000
Speaker 3: I saw it with for Simmons. But it was just

951
00:49:40,040 --> 00:49:42,319
Speaker 3: fascinating how much more of the ground you saw with

952
00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:44,160
Speaker 3: the ball rolling, how much more thinking you had to

953
00:49:44,160 --> 00:49:48,439
Speaker 3: do playing into greens, playing just set up shots there,

954
00:49:48,520 --> 00:49:50,799
Speaker 3: that sort of stuff. It was absolutely fascinating.

955
00:49:51,640 --> 00:49:52,959
Speaker 2: And I heard you played pretty well.

956
00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:56,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, I broke the thirty barrier for my first time

957
00:49:56,440 --> 00:49:57,760
Speaker 3: ever on Sweetens.

958
00:49:58,239 --> 00:50:00,560
Speaker 2: What I didn't know you played that well.

959
00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:05,120
Speaker 3: Sure, I shot twenty nine and I missed two ten footers.

960
00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:08,439
Speaker 3: Shout out to Dan Nelson, won my opponent in that match,

961
00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:11,520
Speaker 3: and fellow new club guy. He came out and he

962
00:50:11,719 --> 00:50:14,839
Speaker 3: was going nuts too early, the both of us, and

963
00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:17,719
Speaker 3: for whatever reason, he just sparked a fire under me

964
00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:19,120
Speaker 3: and he just had a blast.

965
00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:21,960
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, it's amazing that you shot your your

966
00:50:22,040 --> 00:50:26,360
Speaker 1: lowest nine ever and you felt yourself having You know,

967
00:50:26,719 --> 00:50:30,320
Speaker 1: part of me sometimes feels I play with old equipment

968
00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:34,359
Speaker 1: half sets. I actually didn't play with like a conventional

969
00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:39,920
Speaker 1: set from March till was it August this year? And

970
00:50:39,960 --> 00:50:43,760
Speaker 1: what I find is I'm so much more mentally stimulated

971
00:50:44,080 --> 00:50:48,920
Speaker 1: in the round when I play with non just straight

972
00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:52,880
Speaker 1: modern and what that does is that it keeps me

973
00:50:53,160 --> 00:50:56,040
Speaker 1: in the round more did you feel that way?

974
00:50:57,120 --> 00:51:02,040
Speaker 3: Absolutely like yourself. I mean huge half set player for

975
00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:04,160
Speaker 3: the exact reason that you're speaking of, where I just

976
00:51:04,239 --> 00:51:06,680
Speaker 3: take out half of half the clubs in my bag

977
00:51:06,719 --> 00:51:10,239
Speaker 3: and play other things in this And I learned this

978
00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:12,000
Speaker 3: from like Vision fifty four is a good group they

979
00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:14,320
Speaker 3: talk about in terms of training. To be a good golfer,

980
00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:17,520
Speaker 3: you have to learn to hit golf shots right. And

981
00:51:17,600 --> 00:51:19,359
Speaker 3: part of learning to hit golf shots, and I mean

982
00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:22,200
Speaker 3: shots at shape that play that played to a distance

983
00:51:22,280 --> 00:51:24,719
Speaker 3: that's not natural for that club. You have to think

984
00:51:24,719 --> 00:51:26,839
Speaker 3: about the implications of that. Where is this going to land,

985
00:51:26,880 --> 00:51:28,600
Speaker 3: how is this going to run out? What's my miss

986
00:51:28,680 --> 00:51:31,640
Speaker 3: going to be? All those things come into into the

987
00:51:31,640 --> 00:51:33,799
Speaker 3: mind where now it's like I have to control the trajectory.

988
00:51:33,880 --> 00:51:36,279
Speaker 3: What trajectory do I wanted to come in at? And

989
00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:38,799
Speaker 3: when you're playing a course like a Sweeten's Cove or

990
00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:41,960
Speaker 3: you know, think of your favorite firm and past golf course.

991
00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:45,239
Speaker 3: I probably plays like Shinacock, right, those questions actually matter

992
00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:48,680
Speaker 3: or the old course, and you have to think about those.

993
00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:50,840
Speaker 3: I mean, one of the things I was just talking

994
00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:53,480
Speaker 3: with the college coach recently that's both a friend and

995
00:51:53,840 --> 00:51:56,120
Speaker 3: a colleague of mine, and we were just talking about

996
00:51:56,120 --> 00:51:58,280
Speaker 3: how college a lot of college kids, even your best kids,

997
00:51:58,480 --> 00:52:00,799
Speaker 3: don't know how to hit golf shots right. They can

998
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:02,319
Speaker 3: have a wedge in their hand, and if it's not

999
00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:06,280
Speaker 3: the exact yard to just they need, they's somewhat stabbing

1000
00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:08,640
Speaker 3: in the dark, or they're just going full bore at everything.

1001
00:52:08,719 --> 00:52:11,839
Speaker 3: So even something as simple as like hey, go play

1002
00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:14,040
Speaker 3: with the half set, because now when you're one sixty

1003
00:52:14,400 --> 00:52:16,200
Speaker 3: in your nine irons not in your bag, you have

1004
00:52:16,320 --> 00:52:17,960
Speaker 3: to think, well, do I do something in the wedge?

1005
00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:19,880
Speaker 3: Do I do something with the eight iron? What do

1006
00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:21,640
Speaker 3: I have to do with this club to make it

1007
00:52:21,840 --> 00:52:24,080
Speaker 3: go the distance, land where I wanted to be and

1008
00:52:24,640 --> 00:52:26,480
Speaker 3: do what I wanted to do when it hits the ground.

1009
00:52:27,200 --> 00:52:30,160
Speaker 3: And to me, that is just it's just more interesting golf.

1010
00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:32,920
Speaker 3: I just find out to be more pure form of

1011
00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:35,520
Speaker 3: golf because it just engages the mind so much more,

1012
00:52:36,239 --> 00:52:38,759
Speaker 3: because it engages both my analytical and just sort of

1013
00:52:39,560 --> 00:52:41,879
Speaker 3: creative multiple options mine.

1014
00:52:43,320 --> 00:52:45,560
Speaker 2: So to get more specific about that, if you were

1015
00:52:45,640 --> 00:52:49,840
Speaker 2: to put on your analytics hat, if you were to say,

1016
00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:55,160
Speaker 2: prepare a course guide for Sweeten's gut Cove for yourself

1017
00:52:55,360 --> 00:52:59,759
Speaker 2: using modern equipment versus one where you were using the

1018
00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:02,319
Speaker 2: equipment that you used at the oil hardened Classic per

1019
00:53:02,320 --> 00:53:07,040
Speaker 2: Simon and bladed irons. What would be the differences between

1020
00:53:07,080 --> 00:53:10,719
Speaker 2: those those course guides from a statistical perspective.

1021
00:53:12,120 --> 00:53:13,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, so one thing, I'll never do a course guide

1022
00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:16,359
Speaker 3: for Sweeten's Cove. That is my escape. So I will

1023
00:53:16,360 --> 00:53:18,960
Speaker 3: never have anybody that wants me to do one thing.

1024
00:53:18,960 --> 00:53:20,480
Speaker 2: You're not going to violate it in that way.

1025
00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:23,279
Speaker 3: I will not violate it that I even feel bad

1026
00:53:23,280 --> 00:53:24,680
Speaker 3: when I do the little videos of it.

1027
00:53:24,719 --> 00:53:26,680
Speaker 2: I'm like, Okay, well let's call it. Let's call it

1028
00:53:26,760 --> 00:53:29,840
Speaker 2: Athens Country Club or something like that. Let's let me

1029
00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:31,760
Speaker 2: another course any other course.

1030
00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:36,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, so all right, So I will say this with irons,

1031
00:53:36,760 --> 00:53:39,360
Speaker 3: like even blade irons, not much is different, right. The

1032
00:53:39,440 --> 00:53:42,320
Speaker 3: current irons are really very similar to the old irons.

1033
00:53:42,320 --> 00:53:44,560
Speaker 3: There's not a huge change in those when you're talking

1034
00:53:44,640 --> 00:53:47,239
Speaker 3: taking into account the modern ball. Now, if we're talking

1035
00:53:47,320 --> 00:53:49,000
Speaker 3: if we wound the ball back a little bit, with

1036
00:53:49,040 --> 00:53:51,839
Speaker 3: a ball with more curvature on it, things do have

1037
00:53:51,880 --> 00:53:54,440
Speaker 3: to be thought about a little bit differently because and

1038
00:53:54,480 --> 00:53:56,000
Speaker 3: this is actually one of the open questions why I

1039
00:53:56,000 --> 00:53:58,080
Speaker 3: always say I don't have an answer, because I honestly

1040
00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:00,600
Speaker 3: wonder what does a dispersion pattern look like if we

1041
00:54:00,600 --> 00:54:03,520
Speaker 3: were had a seven iron with a wound golf ball right,

1042
00:54:03,680 --> 00:54:07,560
Speaker 3: does our left the right dispersion change significantly? And more importantly,

1043
00:54:07,600 --> 00:54:10,600
Speaker 3: does our dispersion within it change? Do our percentages change

1044
00:54:10,600 --> 00:54:13,360
Speaker 3: where like our fifty percent of balls are a little wider,

1045
00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:15,600
Speaker 3: a little more narrow Like those questions would have to

1046
00:54:15,640 --> 00:54:17,319
Speaker 3: be thought out, and I don't have an answer to

1047
00:54:17,440 --> 00:54:19,960
Speaker 3: those because honestly, I've just never sat down with one

1048
00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:21,840
Speaker 3: hundred wound balls and hit seven irons to see what

1049
00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:24,800
Speaker 3: would happen versus my seven iron, And we grabbed a

1050
00:54:25,239 --> 00:54:28,600
Speaker 3: you know, a b toad or something like that and said, hey,

1051
00:54:28,640 --> 00:54:30,120
Speaker 3: hit these seven irons for me and I'll hit your

1052
00:54:30,120 --> 00:54:32,520
Speaker 3: seven iron. That's see the differences and in the same

1053
00:54:32,600 --> 00:54:36,239
Speaker 3: level like persimmon to like the modern driver, I think

1054
00:54:36,280 --> 00:54:39,120
Speaker 3: what changes there is a little bit of how the

1055
00:54:39,160 --> 00:54:41,200
Speaker 3: ball flies. It's not going to have as much carry

1056
00:54:42,239 --> 00:54:43,919
Speaker 3: and for me personally, it's going to have a little

1057
00:54:43,920 --> 00:54:45,480
Speaker 3: bit more run out. So I'm gonna have to think

1058
00:54:45,520 --> 00:54:47,680
Speaker 3: about that now, like, Okay, this ball is going to

1059
00:54:47,719 --> 00:54:49,399
Speaker 3: be on the ground a little bit more. It's gonna

1060
00:54:49,440 --> 00:54:51,640
Speaker 3: have some curvature on it. When my ball gets on

1061
00:54:51,640 --> 00:54:54,160
Speaker 3: the ground running, if this thing's firm and passed, where's

1062
00:54:54,200 --> 00:54:55,680
Speaker 3: that ball going to run to? And what are my

1063
00:54:55,719 --> 00:54:58,319
Speaker 3: consequences of that? Now, if we're on a soft course,

1064
00:54:58,360 --> 00:55:00,719
Speaker 3: I'm going to be honest, the balls not running much,

1065
00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:03,320
Speaker 3: there's not too much to think about. You just where's

1066
00:55:03,320 --> 00:55:05,359
Speaker 3: this ball gonna land? And that's all I need to know,

1067
00:55:05,440 --> 00:55:08,120
Speaker 3: And I'll design everything based on that. And my distance

1068
00:55:08,200 --> 00:55:10,480
Speaker 3: might be a little less with the persimmon, but guess what, like,

1069
00:55:10,840 --> 00:55:13,120
Speaker 3: my dispersion is probably gonna still be pretty similar, and

1070
00:55:13,160 --> 00:55:15,200
Speaker 3: the way the holes are played are going to be

1071
00:55:15,280 --> 00:55:18,120
Speaker 3: pretty similar other than adjusting for distances. But you start

1072
00:55:18,120 --> 00:55:20,840
Speaker 3: putting it firm and fast and the ball's curving, Now

1073
00:55:21,239 --> 00:55:23,759
Speaker 3: you know it's the whole point that's made. Once that

1074
00:55:23,800 --> 00:55:25,279
Speaker 3: ball's out of the on the ground and out of

1075
00:55:25,280 --> 00:55:27,880
Speaker 3: your control, that's that's where things can get scary. So

1076
00:55:27,920 --> 00:55:30,759
Speaker 3: you have to think about that a bit more so.

1077
00:55:31,239 --> 00:55:34,640
Speaker 2: As we mentioned earlier in the podcast, Kevin is going

1078
00:55:34,719 --> 00:55:38,080
Speaker 2: to be joining us at the Thoroughbred Friday Egg event

1079
00:55:38,280 --> 00:55:42,520
Speaker 2: held at Aching Golf Club. Kevin, you're a resident of

1080
00:55:42,560 --> 00:55:45,040
Speaker 2: the of the South. You've been to Aching Golf Club.

1081
00:55:45,680 --> 00:55:47,600
Speaker 2: What are your what are your thoughts on that course?

1082
00:55:47,840 --> 00:55:50,600
Speaker 2: And uh, you know, are you gonna are you gonna

1083
00:55:50,600 --> 00:55:52,320
Speaker 2: come up with a course guide before you arrive?

1084
00:55:53,800 --> 00:55:55,680
Speaker 3: I think so I've only been to Aching once, you know,

1085
00:55:55,680 --> 00:55:57,240
Speaker 3: I think we went on two loops. I was actually

1086
00:55:57,239 --> 00:56:00,040
Speaker 3: over there with a mutual friend of Jason Way and

1087
00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:03,440
Speaker 3: his son and then Dave I think his last name

1088
00:56:03,440 --> 00:56:08,759
Speaker 3: sink Guard. I think that's right. Thinking, Yes, just an

1089
00:56:08,840 --> 00:56:11,799
Speaker 3: absolute pleasurable day. But you know, I had the role

1090
00:56:11,840 --> 00:56:15,000
Speaker 3: of Tony Plane at once. I still haven't unlocked its secrets,

1091
00:56:15,000 --> 00:56:16,319
Speaker 3: so I don't want to say a whole lot about

1092
00:56:16,360 --> 00:56:18,000
Speaker 3: it until I played a couple more times. But I

1093
00:56:18,040 --> 00:56:23,440
Speaker 3: got admit it was. It was special. It had It

1094
00:56:23,480 --> 00:56:25,480
Speaker 3: was almost like walking back in time in a lot

1095
00:56:25,520 --> 00:56:27,680
Speaker 3: of ways. I felt like I was back in Pinehurst,

1096
00:56:27,760 --> 00:56:30,359
Speaker 3: like in the nineteen fifties, or how pine Hurst would

1097
00:56:30,360 --> 00:56:33,200
Speaker 3: have felt in the fifties, with just this sand sort

1098
00:56:33,239 --> 00:56:36,319
Speaker 3: of sand hills sand belt style golf course weaving through

1099
00:56:36,320 --> 00:56:42,160
Speaker 3: a neighborhood, which is aggressively cool contours throughout the entire course,

1100
00:56:42,280 --> 00:56:44,920
Speaker 3: especially playing into the greens. I mean, I'll never forget

1101
00:56:44,920 --> 00:56:47,200
Speaker 3: the fifteenth green. It reminded me of this Walter Travel

1102
00:56:47,400 --> 00:56:50,040
Speaker 3: Travis green up at kate Arundel that was just had

1103
00:56:50,040 --> 00:56:53,280
Speaker 3: this huge tier kind of cutting right through the middle

1104
00:56:53,280 --> 00:56:54,600
Speaker 3: of it where you walk up and you're like, that's

1105
00:56:54,600 --> 00:56:57,439
Speaker 3: just the coolest green site to put that there and

1106
00:56:57,480 --> 00:57:01,120
Speaker 3: place that down and just made you think about like, Okay, again,

1107
00:57:01,200 --> 00:57:02,880
Speaker 3: I can't control my angle, but if I'm on this

1108
00:57:02,960 --> 00:57:04,680
Speaker 3: side of the fairway, like how I'm gonna have to

1109
00:57:04,680 --> 00:57:06,440
Speaker 3: play into that green versus I end up on that

1110
00:57:06,480 --> 00:57:08,080
Speaker 3: side of the fairway, what I'm gonna have to do

1111
00:57:08,160 --> 00:57:11,279
Speaker 3: and how can I use the ground to help it out?

1112
00:57:11,440 --> 00:57:14,160
Speaker 3: So I'm just, yeah, really looking forward to getting back

1113
00:57:14,160 --> 00:57:16,520
Speaker 3: to it and getting experience it again and just having

1114
00:57:16,560 --> 00:57:17,360
Speaker 3: it come alive.

1115
00:57:18,360 --> 00:57:21,800
Speaker 1: I'm actually curious about this, with that whole being like

1116
00:57:21,880 --> 00:57:27,560
Speaker 1: two hundred and seventy yard to sixty, could you technically

1117
00:57:27,880 --> 00:57:30,440
Speaker 1: actually control your angle into that green with like a

1118
00:57:30,480 --> 00:57:34,800
Speaker 1: forty yard wide fairway knowing that you could go wedge wedge.

1119
00:57:35,960 --> 00:57:38,040
Speaker 3: If you could go wedge wedge, So at a wedge

1120
00:57:38,040 --> 00:57:41,520
Speaker 3: you're looking at, I mean, you're still getting up pretty good.

1121
00:57:41,520 --> 00:57:43,280
Speaker 3: I don't remember the specific numbers off my head, but

1122
00:57:43,280 --> 00:57:46,720
Speaker 3: it's like a twenty five yard window that you're still

1123
00:57:46,720 --> 00:57:50,680
Speaker 3: operating at, so a little bit, yeah, you control it

1124
00:57:50,960 --> 00:57:54,400
Speaker 3: right now? Yes, Okay. The cool thing about the wedge

1125
00:57:54,440 --> 00:57:56,280
Speaker 3: is like seventy five percent of your balls are going

1126
00:57:56,280 --> 00:57:59,959
Speaker 3: to end up on a pretty tight window, So yeah,

1127
00:58:00,120 --> 00:58:01,880
Speaker 3: a little bit with a wedge wedge, you can control

1128
00:58:01,920 --> 00:58:04,880
Speaker 3: it a bit more now. But yeah, my analytics hat

1129
00:58:04,920 --> 00:58:08,439
Speaker 3: on is I'll echo I guess Scott Fosse. It would

1130
00:58:08,480 --> 00:58:10,560
Speaker 3: be like, yeah, but you're playing through a worst score.

1131
00:58:11,880 --> 00:58:14,120
Speaker 3: To me, that's still golf, right. I go around Sweetens

1132
00:58:14,160 --> 00:58:16,760
Speaker 3: a lot of times when I'm playing there and I'm

1133
00:58:16,760 --> 00:58:19,080
Speaker 3: not playing to my best overall score. I'm playing to

1134
00:58:19,120 --> 00:58:22,200
Speaker 3: my best score along a certain path. I'm trying to

1135
00:58:22,200 --> 00:58:24,479
Speaker 3: execute every shot as best I can along a certain path,

1136
00:58:24,520 --> 00:58:27,720
Speaker 3: and that's to me, that's still golf. But yeah, I'm

1137
00:58:27,760 --> 00:58:30,000
Speaker 3: not gonna doing.

1138
00:58:29,840 --> 00:58:35,840
Speaker 1: That when there's aggressive contours and FERB conditions and all

1139
00:58:35,840 --> 00:58:40,479
Speaker 1: of a sudden, then angles matter a lot more. How

1140
00:58:40,520 --> 00:58:44,360
Speaker 1: does that relate to like the general formula? Does it

1141
00:58:44,400 --> 00:58:47,120
Speaker 1: throw it out of wax? Is this one of the

1142
00:58:47,120 --> 00:58:50,440
Speaker 1: reasons we see in like open championships, you know, a

1143
00:58:50,520 --> 00:58:54,120
Speaker 1: leaderboard that's distinctly different than a PGA Tour setup.

1144
00:58:54,880 --> 00:58:58,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, the two biggest variables are winding firmness. Right, because

1145
00:58:58,280 --> 00:59:01,400
Speaker 3: once the ball is on the ground, you unless you

1146
00:59:01,440 --> 00:59:03,760
Speaker 3: have a nice topographical map of what's going to do

1147
00:59:03,840 --> 00:59:05,360
Speaker 3: and you have a system that would tell you where

1148
00:59:05,360 --> 00:59:07,120
Speaker 3: the ball is going to land, it's almost impossible to

1149
00:59:07,200 --> 00:59:12,280
Speaker 3: design for low it's expected score perfectly right to say, yes,

1150
00:59:12,320 --> 00:59:13,880
Speaker 3: this is definitely where you want to play because when

1151
00:59:13,880 --> 00:59:16,640
Speaker 3: the ball hits here, here's all the possible runouts. You know,

1152
00:59:16,760 --> 00:59:19,320
Speaker 3: that's what matters now. I think what this really speaks

1153
00:59:19,360 --> 00:59:23,120
Speaker 3: to is also what I believe is a true the

1154
00:59:23,160 --> 00:59:25,200
Speaker 3: true spirit of the game and aspect of it too.

1155
00:59:25,320 --> 00:59:27,800
Speaker 3: And and you know, my fifth time I mentioned Bob

1156
00:59:27,840 --> 00:59:32,000
Speaker 3: Crosby's podcast with Garrett that he spoke on this too.

1157
00:59:32,040 --> 00:59:35,240
Speaker 3: Golf is not about fairness, right, variability, chance rubbed the

1158
00:59:35,280 --> 00:59:37,560
Speaker 3: green and luck should be part of it. And that's

1159
00:59:37,600 --> 00:59:41,360
Speaker 3: if you look up how a game is defined. I

1160
00:59:41,400 --> 00:59:45,720
Speaker 3: think under the definition you even have chance or luck

1161
00:59:45,840 --> 00:59:49,000
Speaker 3: as part of defining a game wor sport in its outcome. Right,

1162
00:59:49,040 --> 00:59:53,120
Speaker 3: it's an or it's skill like athleticism or luck. So

1163
00:59:53,200 --> 00:59:56,800
Speaker 3: you should have all aspects involved with it because part

1164
00:59:56,800 --> 01:00:00,160
Speaker 3: of golf is also it's egocentrism, right, it's feeling with

1165
01:00:00,200 --> 01:00:03,360
Speaker 3: your own ego to accept, Hey, yes, I hit the

1166
01:00:03,400 --> 01:00:05,680
Speaker 3: perfect shot there, I got a bounce that put me

1167
01:00:05,680 --> 01:00:07,520
Speaker 3: in the road hole in the monker, and that's just

1168
01:00:07,560 --> 01:00:08,640
Speaker 3: what it is, and I have to deal with that.

1169
01:00:08,720 --> 01:00:10,280
Speaker 3: I have to get over that to move on hit

1170
01:00:10,320 --> 01:00:12,680
Speaker 3: the next shot, realizing that was a one in a

1171
01:00:12,720 --> 01:00:14,800
Speaker 3: million break. That was bad. But I need to bounce

1172
01:00:14,840 --> 01:00:18,000
Speaker 3: backward and still try to score the best I can

1173
01:00:18,080 --> 01:00:20,320
Speaker 3: from the next shot. And I think that's a critical

1174
01:00:20,360 --> 01:00:22,520
Speaker 3: important element of the game that makes it more interesting

1175
01:00:22,520 --> 01:00:25,439
Speaker 3: than that. Go hit a great one day, shoot thirty eight,

1176
01:00:25,480 --> 01:00:27,400
Speaker 3: Go hit it great the next day and shoot twenty nine.

1177
01:00:27,520 --> 01:00:30,040
Speaker 3: That's just I think that's beautiful.

1178
01:00:30,400 --> 01:00:34,080
Speaker 1: Isn't that crazy? Though, Like we have when there's a

1179
01:00:34,120 --> 01:00:35,560
Speaker 1: center line bunker.

1180
01:00:35,960 --> 01:00:41,760
Speaker 4: Or a green that might be difficult, players now complain about,

1181
01:00:42,200 --> 01:00:44,760
Speaker 4: you know, getting it removed. But in football, a punter

1182
01:00:44,880 --> 01:00:47,560
Speaker 4: that get hits a perfect punt that gets a bad

1183
01:00:47,600 --> 01:00:50,080
Speaker 4: bounce and goes into the end zone for a touchback

1184
01:00:50,520 --> 01:00:54,920
Speaker 4: doesn't ever complain after the game about the oblong shape

1185
01:00:54,920 --> 01:00:57,240
Speaker 4: of a football and ask for it to be perfectly round.

1186
01:00:58,560 --> 01:01:02,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, it's fascinating right in terms of always

1187
01:01:02,640 --> 01:01:07,640
Speaker 3: always think about just what golf exposes in terms of

1188
01:01:08,760 --> 01:01:11,080
Speaker 3: our personal preferences in the way we're able to deal

1189
01:01:11,080 --> 01:01:14,400
Speaker 3: with adversity, right, and golf just really, I think, especially

1190
01:01:14,400 --> 01:01:16,520
Speaker 3: golf at the high level game exposes that. And it's

1191
01:01:16,520 --> 01:01:20,920
Speaker 3: easy to coddle to a top level player, right, I mean,

1192
01:01:20,960 --> 01:01:22,600
Speaker 3: it's easy to buy into that mindset. I'm sure I

1193
01:01:22,600 --> 01:01:24,360
Speaker 3: bought in that mindset when I was a college golfer

1194
01:01:24,400 --> 01:01:26,640
Speaker 3: of like, yes, this should be fair, Like this should

1195
01:01:26,680 --> 01:01:28,920
Speaker 3: be straightforward. When I hit a good shot, I should

1196
01:01:28,920 --> 01:01:31,960
Speaker 3: be rewarded. But over the time I've come to realize, like, no,

1197
01:01:32,040 --> 01:01:34,560
Speaker 3: that's you know, part of the game does reward good shots,

1198
01:01:34,600 --> 01:01:37,320
Speaker 3: but it's okay when those aren't always rewarded. But still

1199
01:01:37,720 --> 01:01:39,920
Speaker 3: your ability to rebound after that. And why do we

1200
01:01:39,920 --> 01:01:43,800
Speaker 3: think places like Shinnacock and Augusta, especially when Augusta's firm,

1201
01:01:43,880 --> 01:01:46,200
Speaker 3: Like why is that the most compelling golf to watch?

1202
01:01:46,360 --> 01:01:49,560
Speaker 3: I think it's because, both as a player as well

1203
01:01:49,560 --> 01:01:52,160
Speaker 3: as a spectator, we get that element. We get that

1204
01:01:52,280 --> 01:01:54,560
Speaker 3: luck element when Tiger hits it in the middle of

1205
01:01:54,560 --> 01:01:56,200
Speaker 3: the trees but then plays it off a bounce and

1206
01:01:56,280 --> 01:01:58,320
Speaker 3: one time on eleven it bounces perfectly down in the

1207
01:01:58,320 --> 01:02:00,560
Speaker 3: middle of the green and the other time bounces off

1208
01:02:00,560 --> 01:02:02,360
Speaker 3: to the right of eleven. Now he's faced with a

1209
01:02:02,400 --> 01:02:05,960
Speaker 3: tough up and down like that. Variability makes golf much

1210
01:02:06,000 --> 01:02:10,040
Speaker 3: more compelling than a point and shoot model in my

1211
01:02:10,120 --> 01:02:10,880
Speaker 3: personal opinion.

1212
01:02:12,000 --> 01:02:15,640
Speaker 2: All right, great, thank you so much, Kevin. We'll see

1213
01:02:15,720 --> 01:02:19,680
Speaker 2: you very very soon the event's coming up, and really

1214
01:02:19,720 --> 01:02:20,480
Speaker 2: looking forward to that.

1215
01:02:21,040 --> 01:02:22,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, of course, look forward to seeing you all there

1216
01:02:22,760 --> 01:02:24,200
Speaker 3: and everybody else coming naked.

1217
01:02:24,720 --> 01:02:27,280
Speaker 1: You've been listening to the fried Egg podcast.

1218
01:02:27,720 --> 01:02:29,280
Speaker 2: We do the digging for you.