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Speaker 1: We are on Mayonatonomi Hill, which is the location of

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Speaker 1: where Thomas Cornell Junior was hanged.

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Speaker 2: So they would hang people where.

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Speaker 1: They would hang people at a place where everybody could

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Speaker 1: see them as a warning, and they did that in

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Speaker 1: England as well as in the Colonial America's.

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Speaker 2: Rebecca Cornell's relative Carrie Nolty, has taken me to the

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Speaker 2: spot in Newport, Rhode Island, where public executions used to

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Speaker 2: take place.

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Speaker 1: And you'll see that also in Salem in about twenty

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Speaker 1: years they did the same thing and hung them at

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Speaker 1: the bottom of a hill, not on top of a hill,

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Speaker 1: usually because the convicted would be in a cart and

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Speaker 1: it just wouldn't make sense to haul everybody up there.

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Speaker 2: So who had a clear view here to.

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Speaker 1: One of Newport would have had the clearest view. And

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Speaker 1: that time they had just decided to make Newport the

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Speaker 1: center of jurisdiction for the island. It had been Portsmouth previously,

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Speaker 1: but they had just built a new jail and actually

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Speaker 1: tried Thomas Junior in Newport at what later became the

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Speaker 1: White Horse Tavern.

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Speaker 2: In May of sixteen seventy three, workers were building the

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Speaker 2: gallows at the top of the hill Thomas Cornell Junior

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Speaker 2: had been convicted by a jury in the murder of

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Speaker 2: his mother, Rebecca Cornell, and he faced execution for it.

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Speaker 2: But if you've closely read some of the testimony that

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Speaker 2: convicted him, it seemed like perhaps Rebecca wasn't as scared

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Speaker 2: of Thomas as she was of his second wife, Sarah Earl.

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Speaker 2: A friend named Patience Cargashall said this in her deposition

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Speaker 2: about Rebecca. She was afraid there would be mischief done.

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Speaker 2: Her daughter in law was of such a desperate spirit

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Speaker 2: for not long since, said she she ran after one

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Speaker 2: of the children of his first wife with an axe,

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Speaker 2: but she Rebecca had prevented her from striking the child,

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Speaker 2: and then Patience Cagashaw told investigators what the crux of

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Speaker 2: this story is. Both Thomas and his mother felt trapped.

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Speaker 2: Thomas because his finances were tethered to his mother, and

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Speaker 2: Rebecca because she had made a grave mistake. Patience said

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Speaker 2: in her deposition she did not live with any of

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Speaker 2: her other children because she had made over her estate

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Speaker 2: to her son, Thomas. If she had thought her son,

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Speaker 2: Thomas's first wife would have died before her, she would

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Speaker 2: not have made it over to him. So many mistakes

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Speaker 2: were made in this story, and now forty five year

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Speaker 2: old Thomas Cornell Junior was scheduled to hang on May

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Speaker 2: twenty third, sixteen seventy three.

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Speaker 3: The local authorities were making a point of this death,

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Speaker 3: of this hanging. They were feeding the crowds, they were

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Speaker 3: feeding the desires of the people because supposedly a thousand

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Speaker 3: people came to watch him and get hung.

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Speaker 4: So he is hanged, and tell me about the hanging.

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Speaker 4: Is it well attended?

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Speaker 1: Of assuming so the whole town would have probably gone

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Speaker 1: and seen this because it was not just a social event. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was a social event.

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Speaker 2: Thomas wouldn't be alone on the gallows. A Native American

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Speaker 2: man who had also been convicted of murder was scheduled

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Speaker 2: to die on the same day. Executing multiple people at

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Speaker 2: the same time was unusual and colonial times, it definitely

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Speaker 2: made for more of a public spectacle.

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Speaker 5: You know, a thousand peeble by boat and by horpsock.

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Speaker 5: It's not that they were hopping on a trainer in

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Speaker 5: a car. They had to really go out of their

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Speaker 5: way to so that they gave a week's notice. I

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Speaker 5: think it was Friday of the following week, and everybody

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Speaker 5: came and it was like in England, you know, when

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Speaker 5: you think about it, you know, the quartering and dismemberment

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Speaker 5: and heads on pikes and all of that. There was

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Speaker 5: still that bloodthirsty let me see vengeance, let me get justice.

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Speaker 2: Thomas Cornell was executed that day and he never admitted guilt.

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Speaker 2: He refused to turn on anyone else, and he declared

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Speaker 2: his innocence up until the end. He may have been

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Speaker 2: a bad son, but he refused to say that he

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Speaker 2: was a murderer. Portsmouth historian Gloria Schmidt says that this

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Speaker 2: story has been written into the area's history books for

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Speaker 2: more than three hundred years.

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Speaker 6: There are a lot of interesting people that are related

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Speaker 6: to this family, and all over Portsmouth you talk to

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Speaker 6: people and they say, that's my family.

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Speaker 2: The Cornells were influential and respected, and perhaps the Colony

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Speaker 2: of Rhode Island actually showed that respect by honoring the

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Speaker 2: family's reputation in an unusual way. After Thomas was hanged.

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Speaker 6: It's a hanging, and it would have been on Mayantonomi,

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Speaker 6: which is a very high point in Newport, and usually

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Speaker 6: they would have just left the body there to rut.

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Speaker 6: And the fact that they did take it down, and

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Speaker 6: they did bury it in the family plot. It kind

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Speaker 6: of proves that somebody was at least a little sympathetic

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Speaker 6: towards him and his family. The normal thing would have

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Speaker 6: just let you know, the birds pecathem or whatever, but

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Speaker 6: they did not do that in his case.

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Speaker 2: We're assuming that was the fate of the Native Americans body,

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Speaker 2: but I'm not sure. After his execution, Thomas Cornell was

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Speaker 2: buried in a grave with no ceremony, no real recognition.

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Speaker 6: We in fact know that they buried him as far

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Speaker 6: away from the rest of the family, but they did

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Speaker 6: honor his request to still be buried on that land,

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Speaker 6: and that doesn't sound like he's all that bitter if

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Speaker 6: he's still concerned about being with the family.

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Speaker 2: Let's talk more about that now. We mentioned it before,

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Speaker 2: but Rebecca Cornell and most of her contemporary family members

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Speaker 2: are buried in a little cemetery on their old property

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Speaker 2: out behind Joe Ochie's present day restaurant, The Valley Inn. Today.

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Speaker 2: Though Carrie Malty and I were curious about what happened

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Speaker 2: to Thomas Junior's body, the most important question I have

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Speaker 2: is is this place haunted?

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Speaker 4: Is it has to be bad stuff?

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Speaker 2: Happened here.

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Speaker 7: Bad stuff did happen here.

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Speaker 2: We've had ghost hunters in here, right.

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Speaker 7: Yes, we have, Yes, we have a lot of the

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Speaker 7: shows had approached us, and we had always said no.

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Speaker 7: And I grew up in this house. My family lived

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Speaker 7: here for my son's Two of my sons live here

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Speaker 7: now still. But anyway, my mom always used to say

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Speaker 7: that if there's anybody here, they like us, but we

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Speaker 7: had always declined them. And then when COVID came and

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Speaker 7: we were doing very little business for months on end,

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Speaker 7: Kindred Spirits happened to call. So it was opportune, so

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Speaker 7: I said, come on down.

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Speaker 2: Remember this building is built around the actual home where

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Speaker 2: Rebecca Cornell was tragically burned to death, and it was

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Speaker 2: believed that Thomas's body was buried somewhere on this property.

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Speaker 7: And so they came and they spent a week here,

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Speaker 7: and they hired a local guy with the ground piercing

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Speaker 7: radar to find Thomas's great and I saw it with

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Speaker 7: my own eyes, you know, So where is it? Oh,

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Speaker 7: he's right over here in the corner of the property,

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Speaker 7: under the driveway. Oh you didn't know that.

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Speaker 8: The way out.

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Speaker 7: He always maintained his innocence and his last request was

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Speaker 7: to be buried in the family cemetery. That was denied

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Speaker 7: by the judge because if I convicted you of killing

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Speaker 7: a family member, I can't very well put you in

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Speaker 7: hallowed ground next to them. Problem being, these were settlers.

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Speaker 7: There weren't very many people on the island. They all

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Speaker 7: had big chunks of land, and they all buried their

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Speaker 7: people in their own property, so there was no such

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Speaker 7: thing as a community cemetery to put him. So there

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Speaker 7: was no place else to put him, if not on

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Speaker 7: his own land. So the judge decided that he'd be

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Speaker 7: placed in an unmarked grave because he'd been convicted of

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Speaker 7: a crime at the furthest point on his own property

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Speaker 7: from the family cemetery.

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Speaker 2: The property was one hundred acres back then, which is

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Speaker 2: a large piece of land, so they would have been

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Speaker 2: able to keep Thomas Junior far away from his family.

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Speaker 2: And now he's under a driveway.

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Speaker 7: The furthest point on the property is that corner of

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Speaker 7: the property. He's ten feet from West Main Road and

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Speaker 7: he's been there ever since. And I saw it on

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Speaker 7: the guy's screen.

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Speaker 2: What did it look like?

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Speaker 7: So he could see basically the outline of what yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 4: That's amazing.

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Speaker 2: We show us, I know you're and an exterior door

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Speaker 2: as well. Is the basement original or now?

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Speaker 7: Wow, it's still got the stone foundation because they they

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Speaker 7: didn't build like they do now. They just rebuild and reuse.

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Speaker 7: You know. The crew from the show put that little

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Speaker 7: cross there and he's he's right here.

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Speaker 6: Wow and they put the little cross.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that must have been weird to see that.

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Speaker 7: Yeah. So yeah, this is where he is. And if

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Speaker 7: you can actually see that, like the condos, that's where

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Speaker 7: the cemetery was down there?

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Speaker 2: Wow? Or is yeah, that cemetery was rough.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, well thank you? Oh say yeah, this was great.

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Speaker 7: This is really great to meet you, my pleasure.

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Speaker 2: Thomas Cornell Junior was gone buried not far from his

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Speaker 2: family's home, but the suspicion centered on his family had

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Speaker 2: not been buried with him.

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Speaker 6: So I don't know if you do know that that

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Speaker 6: Thomas Junior is rather sought to have Sarah tried for

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Speaker 6: the murder.

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Speaker 2: That's the story. I've heard too, that Thomas's brother pointed

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Speaker 2: the finger at Sarah Earl, But because she never went

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Speaker 2: to trial and there aren't any records, I'm not sure

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Speaker 2: how reliable it is. The Cornells were likely very angry

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Speaker 2: with Sarah Earl who would come in and treated their

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Speaker 2: mother poorly, So the rumor that William Cornell had her

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Speaker 2: arrested seems pretty likely to me. Interestingly, Sarah wasn't the

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Speaker 2: only person in that house drawn into the conspiracy.

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Speaker 1: Later on, I want to say, in sixteen seventy five

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Speaker 1: or sixteen seventy six, she is charged, but there's no

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Speaker 1: real record of it. There's just a record that she

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Speaker 1: was charged and then she was let go. Okay, But

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Speaker 1: they also charged at the same time a Native American named,

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Speaker 1: I want to say, Wickopash.

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Speaker 2: I asked Carrie Moore about the Native American servant, Wickopash.

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Speaker 2: It sounds like he had a history with the Cornells.

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Speaker 1: One thing I should say is that Wickopash was charged

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Speaker 1: and found guilty of stealing from Thomas Cornell the year

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Speaker 1: prior to all of this.

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Speaker 2: Okay, okay. And then remember that the night of Rebecca's death,

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Speaker 2: when Thomas and Sarah discovered his mother's body, Henry Strait

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Speaker 2: assumed that perhaps the body was that of a Native American.

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Speaker 2: Thomas soon corrected him and identified Rebecca's body by her boots.

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Speaker 2: But now it's reasonable to wonder if Henry Strait thought

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Speaker 2: at first that it was Wickipash breaking into the home

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Speaker 2: and seeking revenge or just stealing something. He would have

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Speaker 2: been familiar with the house after all, and he may

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Speaker 2: have carried a grudge from being convicted.

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Speaker 1: So one of the reasons that he may have immediately

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Speaker 1: jumped to the conclusion that it was a quote unquote

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Speaker 1: drunk Indian is that he had been stolen from before

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Speaker 1: and Wickopash was a servant of his prior.

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Speaker 2: That doesn't feel like proof of anything, but it is intriguing.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't seem likely he was there to steal.

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Speaker 1: We don't think there's anything that's been missing in this case, right, No,

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Speaker 1: But in the sense that both Wikipash, the floor and

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Speaker 1: Sarah were arrested, was there conspiracy?

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Speaker 4: What she paid him to?

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Speaker 1: She paid him. She and Thomas paid him.

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Speaker 2: So that's a theory. William Cornell demanded that the pair

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Speaker 2: be arrested and tried because he thought perhaps Thomas and

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Speaker 2: Sarah had hired their former servant to break in and

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Speaker 2: murder Rebecca.

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Speaker 6: Now what they accuse her of is a betting, and

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Speaker 6: I don't know how she could have done that. And

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Speaker 6: they found later on, the door was still locked, So

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Speaker 6: somebody couldn't have come from the outside and come in

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Speaker 6: because the door in her room was locked. Do you

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Speaker 6: mean the inner door, Well, there was a different door

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Speaker 6: it was. It would have been a door to the outside,

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Speaker 6: no strangers, And somebody testifies later on that they tried

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Speaker 6: the door and it was locked.

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Speaker 2: Of course, if they had hired Wikipash to kill Rebecca,

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Speaker 2: couldn't it have happened before dinner? And couldn't Thomas have

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Speaker 2: locked the door behind him after he left. We'll never know,

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Speaker 2: but I don't really believe that theory. According to the

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Speaker 2: servants in the farm hands, no one but the family

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Speaker 2: was in the house when Rebecca died, and I would

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Speaker 2: expect that it would have been easy to hear or

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Speaker 2: see strange visitors approaching or leaving a creaky, wooden house.

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Speaker 2: So how much do we believe the Cornells and how

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Speaker 2: much of our thinking is tainted by all the hearsay

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Speaker 2: associated with the case, especially one unfounded rumor that we've

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Speaker 2: already talked about. That cryptic comment supposedly overheard between Thomas

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Speaker 2: and Sarah as he sat in jail.

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Speaker 5: You know it, basically, I'll keep your sect if you

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Speaker 5: keep mine.

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Speaker 2: You know, I'll keep your secret if you keep mine.

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Speaker 2: So was this a murder for higher plot? Who knows anything?

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Speaker 2: As possible, especially because really only Sarah and Thomas actually

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Speaker 2: knew what happened either it was impossible to prove and

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Speaker 2: Sarah Earle and Wikipash were ultimately released.

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Speaker 1: People were talking, people had stories, people had seen things,

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Speaker 1: people had heard things, and they were sharing that information.

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Speaker 1: And so maybe Sarah had shared what actually happened with

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Speaker 1: someone who told someone else who told someone else, but

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Speaker 1: they just didn't have the proof that they needed, or

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Speaker 1: that the people that said something wouldn't be willing to testify,

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Speaker 1: or perhaps even it was down to Sarah's father, Ralph Earle,

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Speaker 1: being too powerful and too wealthy, and so they wouldn't

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Speaker 1: go after her.

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Speaker 5: They tried their servant, and then two years later they

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Speaker 5: tried her and found her innocent. Like what was their

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Speaker 5: obsession with punishing this family to the extent that they

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Speaker 5: already hung Tonnis Junior? Now they go after their servant,

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Speaker 5: he gets found innocent, Then they go after Sarah, she

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Speaker 5: gets found innocent. Who had it in for them?

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Speaker 6: Like?

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Speaker 5: What are they trying to prove with all of that?

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Speaker 5: Like they didn't just let it go. With the death

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Speaker 5: of Thomas Junior.

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Speaker 2: The whole experience must have been horribly embarrassing for Sarah. Remember,

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Speaker 2: she came from a prominent family, and we know that

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Speaker 2: Sarah's life with Thomas was likely not what she had

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Speaker 2: hoped for when they married.

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Speaker 6: It came from a very good family. She would have

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Speaker 6: been used to having servants, and it's you know, I

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Speaker 6: don't think she would have been used to that.

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Speaker 2: So finally, with Sarah's release, the community had decided to

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Speaker 2: move on from the murder. But what happened to that property?

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Speaker 2: Gloria Schmidt and I both want to know that who

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Speaker 2: ended up with Thomas Cornell's one hundred acres.

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Speaker 6: Well, I'm not quite sure who inherited it. I'm sure

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Speaker 6: that it was a very thorny issue because the wills

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Speaker 6: would have been not in place, the wishes of the

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Speaker 6: family would not have been in place, because if he

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Speaker 6: was considered a murderer, that should have gone to the town.

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Speaker 6: It should have been the town's land. It didn't. And

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Speaker 6: you know, even in the eighteen nineties and so forth,

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Speaker 6: it still labeled the Cornell estate, so it passed down

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Speaker 6: in the Cornell family in some way, but I'm not

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Speaker 6: quite sure what that path would have been, but it

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Speaker 6: stayed in the Cornell family for quite a long time.

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Speaker 2: Luckily, Carrie Nolty had some answers. It sounds like because

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Speaker 2: her husband was a convicted murderer, Sarah Earle didn't end

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Speaker 2: up inheriting the land or the house.

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Speaker 1: She didn't get it. There were provisions made for her children.

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Speaker 1: It went to Thomas Cornell the third, and at one

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Speaker 1: point there was some legal maneuvering done by his uncles

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Speaker 1: for the property, but that was all resolved, so he

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Speaker 1: went on to stay and farm and live and was

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Speaker 1: the progenitor of the Cornells in Portsmouth.

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Speaker 2: Thomas Cornell the Third, Thomas Junior's oldest son from his

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Speaker 2: first wife, was twenty when his father was executed. In

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Speaker 2: a way, it feels like with Thomas the Third taking over,

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Speaker 2: Rebecca Cornell's original wishes for her grandchildren might actually have

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Speaker 2: been fulfilled. Soon we'll talk more about what happened with

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Speaker 2: Sarah Earle because it will continue to have tremendous effects

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Speaker 2: on so many people. Stick around until the end because

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Speaker 2: this PostScript is big and it leads us into our

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Speaker 2: next season story. Here's a hint. There are another hundred

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Speaker 2: years of murders in this family, but in this case,

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Speaker 2: it's really difficult for me not to think that this

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Speaker 2: was a wrongful conviction and even worse, I think it

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Speaker 2: was a wrongful execution. Local historian Anne Burn agrees, and

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Speaker 2: she says that there's a lesson to be learned with

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Speaker 2: the story of Thomas Cornell.

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Speaker 5: You know, it's kind of frightening. So I think that, Yeah,

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Speaker 5: Argie just s that's fly. DNA evidence. Forensic science has

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Speaker 5: come such a long way, even in just recent years,

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Speaker 5: especially the DNA. It's fascinating. But it was like a

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Speaker 5: gossip longering festival against this guy, you know. They wanted

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Speaker 5: to find somebody guilty.

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Speaker 2: And says that when there was no concrete evidence, the

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Speaker 2: colony of Rhode Island relied instead on rumors and a

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Speaker 2: ghost to convict a potentially innocent man, all because he

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Speaker 2: treated his mother poorly.

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Speaker 5: But they just jumped at the conclusion, like, you know,

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Speaker 5: they didn't like him. They obviously didn't like him. Some

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Speaker 5: people did, but I mean they just rounded up all

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Speaker 5: the people who had bad things to say. You know,

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Speaker 5: how many people have bad enough, don't batten On your

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Speaker 5: mother in law. Yeah, I don't think that would hold

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Speaker 5: up in the court of right now.

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Speaker 2: But you know, this is what the Innocence Project in

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Speaker 2: New York says. To date, we have helped free or

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Speaker 2: exonerate more than two hundred individuals, most of whom are

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Speaker 2: from communities of color that tend to be more heavily policed,

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Speaker 2: face persistent discrimination, experience poverty at higher rates, and are

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Speaker 2: confronted with many more challenges in the criminal legal system.

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Speaker 2: Reporter Maurice Chama with the Marshall Project says that Americans

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Speaker 2: are now more aware of these sorts of instances of

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Speaker 2: wrongful convictions. Witnesses can be wrong, Forensic science is fallible,

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Speaker 2: and sometimes innocent people confess absolutely.

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Speaker 8: I think that an awareness of wrongful convictions has penetrated society.

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Speaker 8: It's been a sea change in the last twenty thirty years.

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Speaker 8: DNA started to emerge in the nineties, and then to me,

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Speaker 8: there's these big capstones, like the movie Just Mercy gets

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Speaker 8: released and it's in theaters across the country, and here's

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Speaker 8: a story of an innocent man going to prison, going

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Speaker 8: to death row despite not doing it.

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Speaker 2: Maurice says that sometimes when Hollywood catches onto a theme

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Speaker 2: of injustice, Americans will finally listen.

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Speaker 8: In the conversations I have with people across the political spectrum,

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Speaker 8: we've reached a tipping point where there is an awareness

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Speaker 8: of innocent people being in prison and that this is

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Speaker 8: a tragedy and that this is not something we as

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Speaker 8: a society want. But then the second question that immediately

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Speaker 8: follows is well, what are we going to do about it?

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Speaker 8: And often the answers involve some real trade offs. You know,

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Speaker 8: it's tough to stomach the idea that restricting what law

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Speaker 8: enforcement and prosecutors can do, or creating more layers of

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Speaker 8: court review would possibly let a guilty person out. I mean,

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Speaker 8: that is something that is terrible.

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Speaker 2: My father used to say that he would rather see

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Speaker 2: one hundred guilty people go free than one innocent person

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Speaker 2: be imprisoned. Hopefully the solution isn't so dramatic.

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Speaker 8: It may be a risk we have to take as

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Speaker 8: we find tu in the system to make sure fewer

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Speaker 8: innocent people go to prison. And so sometimes I get

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Speaker 8: into this almost philosophical headspace with people where it's almost

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Speaker 8: it's a little bit unsatisfying, and it's hard. I mean,

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Speaker 8: these are really hard questions that we have to ask,

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Speaker 8: So I don't want to pretend that it's like, oh,

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Speaker 8: we can fix a handful of things, and then all

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Speaker 8: the innocent people won't go to prison anymore, and we'll

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Speaker 8: only get the guilty people. Like It's going to be

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Speaker 8: a messy, hard process to get there, but it's one

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Speaker 8: that I don't think we can safely ignore anymore, because

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Speaker 8: the evidence of these tragedies of wrongful convictions is just

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Speaker 8: so in front of us all the time.

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Speaker 2: But the question at the beginning of this season was

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Speaker 2: why was a potentially innocent seventeenth century man railroaded for

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Speaker 2: his mother's murder. If Rebecca Briggs Cornell had died today,

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Speaker 2: a pathologist could have likely resolved Rebecca's cause of death quickly.

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Speaker 2: The spindle needle, suspected murder weapon, could have been tested

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Speaker 2: for DNA or for Prince hopefully, just as could have

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Speaker 2: been more clear. So was Thomas innocent? I personally think

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Speaker 2: there's a good chance of it, but I'd like to

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Speaker 2: check back in with people we've talked about throughout the

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Speaker 2: season for their thoughts. Rebecca's descendant, Carrie Nolty thinks no,

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Speaker 2: Thomas might not have been the killer, but he was

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Speaker 2: certainly culpable.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm just gonna go into what I think,

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Speaker 1: what you think. I think Thomas set her on fire.

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Speaker 1: I think he set her on fire to cover up

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Speaker 1: the wound.

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Speaker 2: So you think that he stabbed her. She's flailing around.

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Speaker 1: And he takes like a shovel and puts the embers

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Speaker 1: on her. I didn't say I thought he stabbed her.

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Speaker 1: I think that she was stabbed, but I think that

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Speaker 1: Thomas is probably the one who tried to cover it up.

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Speaker 2: Here's the twist in Carrie's theory.

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Speaker 4: Who do you think did it?

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Speaker 2: Sarah Earl?

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Speaker 1: I think it might have been the wife, the pregnant wife.

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Speaker 1: Pregnant wife, Well, I didn't.

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Speaker 8: Think it was her versus Toles.

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Speaker 1: I think that when we have the report of her

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Speaker 1: chasing with an axe, okay, her step kids. She is

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Speaker 1: reported to treat Rebecca terribly. She came from a very

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Speaker 1: for the time period, well to do well off family.

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Speaker 1: She would have had servants to help her do things.

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Speaker 1: She didn't have that in the Cornell household. She had

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Speaker 1: to do pretty much everything herself. So she thought that

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Speaker 1: she was going to be marrying someone who was coming

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Speaker 1: into his own. He was going to be this great landholder,

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Speaker 1: he was going to be the inheritor of all these things, and.

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Speaker 2: Nothing.

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Speaker 1: She got the life of the servants that she once had. Essentially,

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Speaker 1: she didn't even have her own room with her husband.

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Speaker 1: She was living in a loft with her children and

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Speaker 1: the servants. So I think that there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: resentment going on there.

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Speaker 2: Carrie suspects that all of Sarah's resentment eventually became focused

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Speaker 2: on her mother in law, and the hormones that come

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Speaker 2: along with being very pregnant might not have helped.

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Speaker 1: That's not her mother, it's an old woman that just

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Speaker 1: won't die, and this old woman that's in the way

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Speaker 1: of what she thinks is hers.

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Speaker 2: Back at the Valley in restaurant, Carrie and I debate

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Speaker 2: with Joe about what exactly happened that Friday night in

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Speaker 2: sixteen seventy three right here in this house.

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Speaker 1: I'm a descendant of Rebecca Carnell from her daughter through

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Speaker 1: her daughter's line, so not Thomas Junior. But I think

431
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Speaker 1: that there's probably a good chance that there was a

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Speaker 1: murder and then a cover up. I think that they

433
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Speaker 1: burned her to cover the wound because it was so

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Speaker 1: acrimonious in that household. Thomas owed her one hundred pounds

435
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Speaker 1: that he was refusing to pay, and he was withholding

436
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Speaker 1: withholding the rent. So it was very acrimonious. And the

437
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Speaker 1: new wife, the second wife, said some pretty wild stuff

438
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Speaker 1: at the trial about a dog leaping out and that

439
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Speaker 1: it was marvelous that most of her clothing wasn't burned.

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Speaker 7: I have read that, and I actually have the transcript

441
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:47,080
Speaker 7: of the trial somewhere, and the way I read that,

442
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 7: I think her exact words were a great black dog

443
00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:53,760
Speaker 7: leaped out of the doorway at them. Yeah. I interpreted

444
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:56,080
Speaker 7: that as in going back to some of the things

445
00:26:56,080 --> 00:27:00,320
Speaker 7: from the Salem witch trials that I know a lot

446
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:04,120
Speaker 7: of people believed that which is with shape shifters so

447
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:06,720
Speaker 7: and that they revert to their true animal form when

448
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:10,760
Speaker 7: they die. So I interpreted that as her trying to

449
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:13,159
Speaker 7: claim in court that her mother in law was a witch.

450
00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:14,080
Speaker 6: I agree with that.

451
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:16,680
Speaker 1: I think she was trying to frame it in such

452
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:20,680
Speaker 1: a way that no one could really looked further.

453
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:23,639
Speaker 2: We asked Joe what he thought, do you think it

454
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 2: was a tragic accident?

455
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:31,320
Speaker 7: Well, I would tend to lean that way, and I

456
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:40,720
Speaker 7: think Thomas was got screwed. Yeah, that's just from what

457
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:45,399
Speaker 7: I understand of it. I may be totally wrong, but

458
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:48,760
Speaker 7: to me it points to it.

459
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:53,240
Speaker 2: But there were other possibilities. According to Anne Burns.

460
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:56,680
Speaker 5: It crossed my mind that one of the kids could

461
00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 5: have done it, or Sarah could have done it, you know,

462
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:02,560
Speaker 5: and that the parents were covering for the kid, or

463
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:06,640
Speaker 5: Thomas took the fall for Sarah like Ida has absolutely

464
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:07,359
Speaker 5: crossed my mind.

465
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:09,960
Speaker 2: I've thought of that too. At least one of the

466
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:13,919
Speaker 2: kids from Thomas's previous marriage was a teenager, thirteen year

467
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:17,000
Speaker 2: old Edward, and he's the one who initially found Rebecca

468
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:21,119
Speaker 2: in her room. But Gloria Schmidt still believes that this

469
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:22,720
Speaker 2: was a horrible accident.

470
00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:26,199
Speaker 6: I think I air on the side of there was

471
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:30,880
Speaker 6: some accident involved. It was just so common for their

472
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 6: clothes to catch on fire. There are too many things

473
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 6: that jn't adda.

474
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:40,960
Speaker 2: What if Sarah Earle were guilty. Historian and TV presenter

475
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:44,840
Speaker 2: Neil Darby says that she wouldn't be surprised. The acrimony

476
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:47,920
Speaker 2: between Sarah and Rebecca would have been a very strong

477
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 2: motive for Sarah to murder her mother in law.

478
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,120
Speaker 4: I think for both men and women. There is a

479
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:56,320
Speaker 4: variety of most patis, but you do tend to find

480
00:28:56,560 --> 00:29:00,960
Speaker 4: formal women committing these kind of emotional murders. You know,

481
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 4: it's to do with relationships with other people. So jealousy

482
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:07,480
Speaker 4: is often cited as a common motive.

483
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:11,280
Speaker 2: And there's the financial motive also. Nell says that maybe

484
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 2: Sarah was jealous that Rebecca had so much control over

485
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:15,680
Speaker 2: their money.

486
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:19,880
Speaker 4: So I've always seen lots of cases of jealousy and

487
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:25,440
Speaker 4: sort of women killing, say their lover's wife or other girlfriend,

488
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 4: jealousy towards their husband's lovers children. It all gets very

489
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:35,640
Speaker 4: very complicated, but there tend to be sort of family reasons, jealousy, passion,

490
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:39,080
Speaker 4: that kind of thing. Whereas men tend to be different

491
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 4: in terms of their motives, they don't tend to kill

492
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:42,240
Speaker 4: for the same reason.

493
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:45,560
Speaker 2: According to Nell, men and women also tend to use

494
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:47,040
Speaker 2: different kinds of weapons.

495
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:49,440
Speaker 4: You know, we've seen that they tend to kill with

496
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:51,479
Speaker 4: different means as well. You know, there's a lot of

497
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:56,400
Speaker 4: more explicit violence, you know, kind of fists, you know, bodies,

498
00:29:57,240 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 4: you know, you don't even need a weapon. But where

499
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 4: they do kill, it's kind of more likely to involve

500
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:06,360
Speaker 4: kind of that more explicit violence than women who traditionally

501
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:08,600
Speaker 4: have poisoned. But you know, they do commit murders, but

502
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:11,960
Speaker 4: for different reasons and using different methods. And of course

503
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:16,360
Speaker 4: women still tend to be far less represented as perpetrators

504
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 4: of murder than men do.

505
00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:30,440
Speaker 2: But none of that matters now, because regardless of what

506
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:34,720
Speaker 2: happened to Rebecca Cornell, her son paid the price for it.

507
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:37,240
Speaker 2: Now his family.

508
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:43,760
Speaker 1: What happened to Sarah Earl, so she remarries.

509
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:48,040
Speaker 6: Sarah went on and married someone else and had more

510
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:49,080
Speaker 6: children afterwards.

511
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:52,640
Speaker 2: But let's briefly go back. You'll remember that Sarah was

512
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:56,760
Speaker 2: pregnant when Thomas died. After the girl's birth, Sarah thought

513
00:30:56,800 --> 00:31:00,120
Speaker 2: about her new daughter's name. Women often name their daughter

514
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:04,520
Speaker 2: after themselves. Rebecca Cornell had named her own daughter Rebecca.

515
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,200
Speaker 2: Sarah had already done that for her five year old

516
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:10,200
Speaker 2: girl with Thomas, but she made a decision about the

517
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:14,120
Speaker 2: newborn's name that would resonate throughout their family history.

518
00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:18,520
Speaker 5: Yes, Innocent, she named her Innocent.

519
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:22,560
Speaker 2: That's a bold statement from Sarah, and Innocent might have

520
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 2: faded into history along with the story of her father,

521
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 2: except that Innocent went on to marry into a very

522
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:35,320
Speaker 2: prominent New England family, the Bordons. Lizzie Borden was Sarah

523
00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:39,880
Speaker 2: Earle's direct descendant, the same Lizzie Borden who more than

524
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:43,720
Speaker 2: two centuries later would be suspected of taking an axe

525
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:46,040
Speaker 2: and murdering her father and his wife.

526
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:49,680
Speaker 5: And that is the direct great great great grandmother of

527
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:50,479
Speaker 5: Lizzie Borden.

528
00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:54,680
Speaker 2: Okay, big revelation for some of you. This might be

529
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 2: a little bit more evidence that murderous intent can sometimes

530
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:02,680
Speaker 2: run in the family. Is it a coincidence that Sarah

531
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:06,480
Speaker 2: Earl supposedly chased her steps on with an axe and

532
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:10,600
Speaker 2: then her descendant used an axe to murder her parents allegedly?

533
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:15,600
Speaker 2: Maybe Luckily we're able to trace a direct line from

534
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:19,600
Speaker 2: Sarah to Lizzie, So innocents had boys.

535
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:26,600
Speaker 6: Right, Yeah, well Lizzie is in Innocent's line. So it's

536
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 6: a very interesting family. You know, you have people that

537
00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:34,040
Speaker 6: the founder of Cornell University is in that line too,

538
00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:37,760
Speaker 6: so you haven't you know, an awful lot of people.

539
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:41,680
Speaker 6: But there are other interesting and I've come across Sarah

540
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:47,000
Speaker 6: in her second marriage to David Lake, and all these

541
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:52,560
Speaker 6: families are all interconnected. It's an interweaving story. So you know,

542
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 6: you find in other situations where you know somebody that

543
00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 6: was a son our daughter of Thomas Cornell comes into

544
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:05,600
Speaker 6: other stories of Portsmouth history.

545
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:15,800
Speaker 2: The story of Thomas Cornell and Sarah Earl is still

546
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:17,880
Speaker 2: debated in New England today.

547
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:20,200
Speaker 1: So you really feel like Sarah is the one.

548
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:20,560
Speaker 4: Who did this.

549
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,240
Speaker 1: I think that Sarah was the impetus. I don't think

550
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,880
Speaker 1: that Thomas would have I don't think it would have

551
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 1: come to death.

552
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:31,200
Speaker 2: Gloria Schmidt was involved in a theatrical play about the

553
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:34,280
Speaker 2: case in Portsmouth, and she says that the audience was

554
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:36,720
Speaker 2: always torn over what really happened.

555
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:42,400
Speaker 6: When we did this play. We presented this and then

556
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:47,400
Speaker 6: we asked the playgoers to be the jury, and you know,

557
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:51,800
Speaker 6: quite often. I think we presented it about six times,

558
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:56,000
Speaker 6: and I think that in four the situations of the

559
00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:59,520
Speaker 6: people voted that it was an accident. And we had

560
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:02,600
Speaker 6: once situation where they thought that it was something paranormal

561
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:06,640
Speaker 6: that happened, that that hound from Hell or whatever was

562
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:11,399
Speaker 6: involved in it. And only in like two cases did

563
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:18,200
Speaker 6: they say that they thought that that Thomas was guilty.

564
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:20,919
Speaker 2: At the end, when we review the story, it all

565
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:25,400
Speaker 2: comes back to Rebecca Briggs Cornell She was a pioneer,

566
00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:29,080
Speaker 2: a driven, family minded woman who wanted to embrace her

567
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:32,879
Speaker 2: religion on her own terms. Gloria Schmidt says that when

568
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:36,759
Speaker 2: Rebecca first moved to New York, there was virtually nothing there.

569
00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:41,480
Speaker 6: It's just a plot of land. There's nothing around it.

570
00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:46,680
Speaker 6: But they were granted land, so they had to start

571
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:50,759
Speaker 6: from scratch again, just like they had in Portsmouth. When

572
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:54,520
Speaker 6: the original colonists came into Portsmouth, there was nothing there.

573
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:59,880
Speaker 6: They first spring. They were in huts that were, you know,

574
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:03,879
Speaker 6: dug out with branches over them until they could cut

575
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:08,040
Speaker 6: down logs and things like that. And these were a

576
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:13,160
Speaker 6: lot of wealthy merchants. They had positions, and all of

577
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:17,120
Speaker 6: a sudden they were back and they had nothing, and

578
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:21,200
Speaker 6: they were starting over from scratch. So for her to

579
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:23,960
Speaker 6: be again starting over for scratch was tough.

580
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 2: But Rebecca survived it, only to tragically die in her

581
00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:32,560
Speaker 2: own home, feeling unloved and unappreciated by her own son.

582
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:37,080
Speaker 2: As Rebecca had grown older, her outlook had become darker.

583
00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:45,560
Speaker 1: It's a tragedy about how little we did and for

584
00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:49,160
Speaker 1: the most part, still do in terms of mental health

585
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:50,320
Speaker 1: and mental health for women.

586
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:54,359
Speaker 2: I asked Laura Schmidt and Carrie Nolty what they think

587
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:56,560
Speaker 2: this story represents in history.

588
00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:02,759
Speaker 6: I think the lesson for this for me is that

589
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:08,160
Speaker 6: it is very easy when we judge, to take a

590
00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 6: lot of other extraneous things like comments that the person

591
00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:18,040
Speaker 6: who died might have made to other people, and blown

592
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:21,960
Speaker 6: I just see those blown out of proportion because the

593
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:27,759
Speaker 6: actual evidence that's not what he was tried on. The

594
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:31,719
Speaker 6: actual thing that he was tried on was people's interpretation

595
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:36,640
Speaker 6: and what she said about him as a son. And

596
00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:41,279
Speaker 6: I think that he was found guilty of being a

597
00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:46,560
Speaker 6: poor son. He really wasn't found guilty of the murder,

598
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:51,600
Speaker 6: but people are trying him for things other than that crime.

599
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:58,360
Speaker 1: I think it represents a woman, like you said, who

600
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:02,960
Speaker 1: was trying to do right by her family, who was

601
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:08,320
Speaker 1: being the grandmother and the grand dame of her family

602
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:12,000
Speaker 1: the best way that she knew how, and by personality

603
00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:17,680
Speaker 1: and circumstance, found herself at odds with her son, and

604
00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:25,600
Speaker 1: into that mix, I think you threw someone who was

605
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:26,319
Speaker 1: a psychopath.

606
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:33,360
Speaker 2: Oh boy, Carrie Nolty's back next season because she's related

607
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:37,120
Speaker 2: to more killers and we'll be talking a lot about them.

608
00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:39,880
Speaker 2: And one of those killers was married to one of

609
00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:43,600
Speaker 2: Sarah Earle's descendants. The woman lived right next door to

610
00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:46,640
Speaker 2: the Borden home. Her house is said to be haunted,

611
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:48,640
Speaker 2: and her story was.

612
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:56,960
Speaker 1: Tragic, okay, And everybody's probably heard of Lizzie Borden, But

613
00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:04,760
Speaker 1: there's another in a generation before her who descends from

614
00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:10,400
Speaker 1: Thomas Junior and Sarah Earl Cornell, and that is this

615
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:16,680
Speaker 1: very tragic story of Eliza Hathaway Darling Cornell.

616
00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:22,680
Speaker 2: Her married last name was Bordon. Eliza Borden was Lizzie's

617
00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:39,799
Speaker 2: great aunt. See you next season. Thanks for listening to

618
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:43,520
Speaker 2: this season of tenfold More Wicked on Exactly Right. Check

619
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:46,000
Speaker 2: back in one week to hear the trailer for our

620
00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:50,640
Speaker 2: new season, which premieres on Monday, May thirteenth. As always,

621
00:38:50,719 --> 00:39:01,640
Speaker 2: thanks for coming back each week. We love our listeners.

622
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:07,480
Speaker 2: If you love true crime, check out my books American

623
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:10,400
Speaker 2: Sherlock and All That Is Wicked. I also have an

624
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Speaker 2: audio book called The Ghost Club. I can't wait to

625
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:16,920
Speaker 2: tell you the real story about the world's most famous

626
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Speaker 2: ghost hunter, who was the head of the world's most

627
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Speaker 2: famous ghost club and how he investigated England's most famous

628
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:45,239
Speaker 2: haunted house. This has been an exactly right tenfold more

629
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:50,520
Speaker 2: media production producer Jason Whaling, Senior producer Alexis and Morosi,

630
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:56,880
Speaker 2: Consulting producer Kyle Ryan, researcher Nicole Brown, sound designer Eric Friend,

631
00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:02,520
Speaker 2: additional sound design by Nicholas Mooney, composer Curtis Heath, artwork

632
00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:08,600
Speaker 2: Nick Toga. Executive producers Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgarriff, and Danielle Kramer.

633
00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:13,560
Speaker 2: Follow us on Instagram and Facebook at tenfold More Wicked