WEBVTT - Robo Sitters 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:07.200 Brought to you by Toyota. Let's go places. Welcome to 0:00:07.400 --> 0:00:15.800 Forward Thinking Heater, everyone, and welcome to Forward Thinking, the 0:00:16.000 --> 0:00:18.919 podcast that looks at the future and says, when the 0:00:18.960 --> 0:00:22.480 wind blows, the cradle will rock. I'm Joe McCormick and 0:00:22.520 --> 0:00:25.480 I'm Lauren Voglon and our host Jonathan Strickland is not 0:00:25.560 --> 0:00:29.400 with us today because he is out having a very 0:00:29.440 --> 0:00:34.600 futuristic procedure today. Yeah, he's getting his eyes lasered. Sounds 0:00:34.600 --> 0:00:37.839 pretty cool, pu pu. He reported in the surgery went 0:00:37.880 --> 0:00:41.240 well and he is in recovery doing fine so well. 0:00:41.600 --> 0:00:45.279 So while he is convalescing, we thought we would do 0:00:45.479 --> 0:00:51.120 a listener request podcast. So today's topic request comes from 0:00:51.159 --> 0:00:54.680 our listener Brian in Chattanooga, Tennessee, and Brian wanted to 0:00:54.720 --> 0:01:00.120 hear about what's the deal with robot childcare? Yeah, I mean, 0:01:00.160 --> 0:01:02.720 because we've got robots doing all kinds of things. I 0:01:02.720 --> 0:01:07.039 mean we kind of technically have They can weld car doors, yeah, yeah, 0:01:07.080 --> 0:01:11.479 which relates to childcare in many ways. They can they 0:01:11.480 --> 0:01:15.679 can wage war on humans. I guess it's usually have 0:01:16.040 --> 0:01:20.119 human controllers involved there. I mean, we already have baby monitors. 0:01:20.160 --> 0:01:26.399 We technically have limited robots watching your children. Maybe kind 0:01:26.440 --> 0:01:30.119 of you might call that a robot. Okay, that might 0:01:30.160 --> 0:01:32.520 sort of fit into a framework that we can put 0:01:32.600 --> 0:01:36.440 up and discuss in a bit here. Uh but okay, 0:01:36.640 --> 0:01:40.240 let's give a little disclaimer before we get into this discussion, 0:01:40.600 --> 0:01:43.840 which is that from my perspective and I'm someone, I'm 0:01:43.840 --> 0:01:46.720 not a parent myself, and neither of us our parents, 0:01:46.760 --> 0:01:48.880 So we should get that out on the table. We 0:01:48.920 --> 0:01:52.240 don't necessarily speak from experience. Um, but I at least 0:01:52.320 --> 0:01:57.960 observe that discussions about parenting are fraught with subtle judgments 0:01:58.040 --> 0:02:01.560 and sometimes not so subtle, so times really really out 0:02:01.600 --> 0:02:03.920 there in your face judgments. Yeah. So we just want 0:02:03.960 --> 0:02:06.800 to stay here at the beginning that we intend none 0:02:06.800 --> 0:02:09.640 of that whatsoever. We just want to have a discussion 0:02:10.240 --> 0:02:14.880 about technology, the possibilities, and not make any judgments about 0:02:14.919 --> 0:02:17.919 the way people parent or the choices they make, uh, 0:02:18.280 --> 0:02:21.560 raising their kids right, because everyone does it differently. It's 0:02:21.600 --> 0:02:23.920 certainly not an easy task for anybody. I think that 0:02:23.960 --> 0:02:26.200 everyone is doing the best that they can and we 0:02:26.240 --> 0:02:29.680 would not know. Yeah, and as a robot would not judge, 0:02:29.720 --> 0:02:32.119 we will not judge. We want to emulate that sort 0:02:32.160 --> 0:02:35.840 of like cold steely in difference and neutrality that are 0:02:35.840 --> 0:02:39.240 that our robot overlords have modeled for us. So well, Okay, 0:02:39.400 --> 0:02:41.720 I think that our first point actually goes with that 0:02:41.840 --> 0:02:45.160 pretty well. Yeah, I think it's a little bit cold, 0:02:45.480 --> 0:02:48.840 is it. Yeah. So, as much as we love our children, 0:02:48.919 --> 0:02:52.079 I do think it's worth saying that for lots of people, 0:02:52.440 --> 0:02:56.920 many aspects of childcare are not necessarily the most highly 0:02:57.040 --> 0:03:00.880 prized activities. And that's not necessarily something I think people 0:03:00.880 --> 0:03:04.640 should be ashamed to admit, Like, you can totally love 0:03:04.720 --> 0:03:08.520 your kid and still not be thrilled about changing his 0:03:08.639 --> 0:03:12.040 or her diapers, right, or having to make them eat 0:03:12.080 --> 0:03:15.399 food when they don't want to eat food, or take 0:03:15.440 --> 0:03:18.200 them screaming through various public spaces, right. And in a 0:03:18.200 --> 0:03:21.640 lot of cases, I'd say that the idea that I 0:03:21.720 --> 0:03:24.040 really wish I could have some machine to help me 0:03:24.080 --> 0:03:27.360 do this, it's not even necessarily a question of preference. 0:03:27.400 --> 0:03:31.760 It might be something about necessity, like you have limited 0:03:31.800 --> 0:03:35.480 time resources, right. Sure. A thing that's pretty frequently talked 0:03:35.480 --> 0:03:38.400 about is the expense of raising kids um in terms 0:03:38.400 --> 0:03:43.600 of actual monetary dollar values, and as of twelve in 0:03:43.680 --> 0:03:46.240 the US, from birth to the age seventeen, it's an 0:03:46.280 --> 0:03:51.280 average of two forty one thousand and eighty dollars um 0:03:51.360 --> 0:03:56.200 to raise a child nothing and that's that's a kid 0:03:56.200 --> 0:04:00.800 born in But the time expense involved raising a child 0:04:00.920 --> 0:04:04.040 is a lot more difficult to calculate. Um And that's 0:04:04.320 --> 0:04:07.640 putting it a little bit coldly, but it's definitely a 0:04:07.640 --> 0:04:09.680 thing to think about. I mean, it's it's certainly a 0:04:09.720 --> 0:04:12.600 factor in whether or not people decide to have children 0:04:12.640 --> 0:04:15.400 at all. Right, Well, there are a whole lot of 0:04:15.480 --> 0:04:19.560 really important decisions that come into play once you've had 0:04:19.600 --> 0:04:23.640 a child. Um, Like the question about whether one parent 0:04:23.720 --> 0:04:26.640 will stay home with the child to help raise the child, 0:04:27.040 --> 0:04:29.080 or whether both parents are going to work. That's a 0:04:29.960 --> 0:04:32.760 thing that's a lot of people worry about. Now, that's 0:04:32.800 --> 0:04:35.000 one of those areas where you see people making judgments 0:04:35.040 --> 0:04:38.760 at each other and oh, certainly, um, I find that 0:04:38.839 --> 0:04:41.880 kind of strange, but I do certainly recognize that it's 0:04:41.880 --> 0:04:44.080 a serious question. Oh yeah, you know, and it's not 0:04:44.120 --> 0:04:47.920 always feasible for to have any parents stay home in 0:04:48.400 --> 0:04:52.040 these are modern economic times. Um As in the US, 0:04:52.160 --> 0:04:54.839 of the families that included a married a married couple 0:04:54.880 --> 0:04:59.719 and children under the age of eighteen had both parents working, 0:05:00.120 --> 0:05:03.520 and of all mothers UM seventy point five percent we're 0:05:03.560 --> 0:05:06.560 looking for work or we're we're working or looking for work, 0:05:06.880 --> 0:05:10.159 And in some other countries it's it's different, right well, 0:05:10.200 --> 0:05:12.080 you know, here here in the US UM, I think 0:05:12.080 --> 0:05:15.560 it's partially due to the lack of of national paid 0:05:15.640 --> 0:05:19.400 family leave UM. American women are guaranteed twelve weeks of 0:05:19.520 --> 0:05:21.920 unpaid leave, but the US is one of the very 0:05:21.960 --> 0:05:25.479 few nations in the world that offers no paid maternal 0:05:25.600 --> 0:05:29.840 leave guaranteed to its citizens. Canada, for example, offers fifty weeks, 0:05:29.920 --> 0:05:34.360 Pakistan offers twelve weeks, Papua New Guinea and Swaziland are 0:05:34.480 --> 0:05:37.520 right there with US at zero UM and and some 0:05:37.600 --> 0:05:41.159 countries offer paternal leave to Iceland and Norway lead that 0:05:41.320 --> 0:05:45.440 worldwide with about ten to twelve weeks. Yeah, So if 0:05:45.520 --> 0:05:50.160 you don't have parental leave and you're in a situation 0:05:50.200 --> 0:05:52.359 where you need to return to work in order to 0:05:52.400 --> 0:05:56.120 have enough money to support your family, UM, you're probably 0:05:56.120 --> 0:05:58.720 going to have to turn to something like daycare. I mean, 0:05:58.760 --> 0:06:00.680 if you don't have to have a close family member 0:06:00.760 --> 0:06:03.640 who can provide that kind of support, then absolutely, and 0:06:03.720 --> 0:06:06.040 it's not always easy to procure that kind of daycare 0:06:06.080 --> 0:06:08.880 in Japan, for example, some parents have to wait like 0:06:08.920 --> 0:06:11.400 two years on a list before getting a spot. It's 0:06:11.400 --> 0:06:14.960 such a problem that as of fall, the Prime Minister 0:06:15.360 --> 0:06:19.480 Shinzo Abbe promised to create four hundred thousand more daycare spots. 0:06:19.480 --> 0:06:22.840 By seen it's one of those politician promises that and 0:06:22.960 --> 0:06:25.040 it's such a huge number. I'm like, oh, no, this 0:06:25.120 --> 0:06:27.320 is a this is a problem, y'all. I don't know 0:06:27.360 --> 0:06:30.560 why I laughed. That's that's not that funny, but it 0:06:30.680 --> 0:06:33.919 just seems so. It seems literally right right the fact 0:06:33.960 --> 0:06:35.760 that I mean, you know, it's I think it's that 0:06:35.880 --> 0:06:37.960 part of the equation is a lot easier. Here in 0:06:38.000 --> 0:06:42.039 the United States, we have pretty plentiful child care services, 0:06:42.279 --> 0:06:45.000 but but they're expensive. I think that I think that 0:06:45.040 --> 0:06:46.800 I saw it listed. I don't have the fact in 0:06:46.839 --> 0:06:48.960 front of me, but as as one of the top 0:06:49.560 --> 0:06:52.760 household expenditures outside of the physical house that you are 0:06:52.800 --> 0:06:55.640 living in, yeah, I can believe it. So with all 0:06:55.680 --> 0:06:59.920 these logistical and economic pressures on parents today, I can 0:07:00.080 --> 0:07:03.800 really see why somebody would start to think, Man, if 0:07:03.880 --> 0:07:08.400 only I had a machine that could provide really good 0:07:08.440 --> 0:07:11.000 care for my child when I really need to be 0:07:11.080 --> 0:07:15.600 doing something else, you know, that becomes sort of understandable 0:07:15.640 --> 0:07:18.840 why somebody might earn for that. Um So, okay, So 0:07:18.880 --> 0:07:21.160 I want to kind of put together a framework for 0:07:21.280 --> 0:07:24.520 thinking about the different kinds of things that a childcare 0:07:24.640 --> 0:07:28.720 robot might do. Um. So, the first one, and what 0:07:28.840 --> 0:07:33.560 seemed like the easiest thing to me, would be basically entertainment. 0:07:34.440 --> 0:07:36.040 This is the thing I think a lot of parents 0:07:36.200 --> 0:07:39.120 used to sort of buy themselves sometime, Like, you know, 0:07:39.240 --> 0:07:42.280 I really need to wash the dishes, so I can 0:07:42.320 --> 0:07:44.480 put the child in front of the computer or in 0:07:44.520 --> 0:07:47.480 front of the TV, or give the child some kind 0:07:47.480 --> 0:07:50.200 of activity to do, right, so that, for the love 0:07:50.240 --> 0:07:52.320 of everything Holy, I can go take a shower, right. 0:07:53.120 --> 0:07:56.160 Um Yeah, So that one doesn't seem like that much 0:07:56.160 --> 0:07:58.480 of a stretch, actually, And you can imagine some very 0:07:58.560 --> 0:08:02.840 rudimentary robots that maybe wouldn't even necessarily meet the definition 0:08:02.880 --> 0:08:05.640 of a robot. But there's some kind of machine that's 0:08:05.680 --> 0:08:08.520 at least engaging enough for the child that it really 0:08:08.560 --> 0:08:12.720 holds the child's attention, and there's um not a lot 0:08:12.800 --> 0:08:15.960 of risk of the child constantly becoming distracted and wandering 0:08:15.960 --> 0:08:19.880 over towards the knife block. Now you might ask in 0:08:20.000 --> 0:08:22.760 what sense, if you're just talking about entertainment, would a 0:08:22.840 --> 0:08:26.400 robot be better than just like say, a computer game 0:08:26.560 --> 0:08:30.680 or a TV show. Yeah, And I guess one advantage 0:08:30.680 --> 0:08:34.440 is you could say that an interactive robot playmate, if 0:08:34.480 --> 0:08:39.400 it was sufficiently realistic in mimicking human behavior, that might 0:08:39.480 --> 0:08:41.360 be and I'm not necessarily sure it would be, but 0:08:41.480 --> 0:08:45.480 it might be more pro social and more engaging to 0:08:45.520 --> 0:08:51.080 the child, more kind of modeling behavior. Sure, And because 0:08:51.160 --> 0:08:53.960 you know what, one of the one of the rejections 0:08:54.000 --> 0:08:57.080 of television and computer games and stuff like that, for 0:08:57.080 --> 0:09:00.000 for especially very young children, is that they're not learned 0:09:00.000 --> 0:09:02.719 in any kind of socialization skills and that they're kind 0:09:02.760 --> 0:09:05.040 of you know, rotting their brain I think is the 0:09:05.080 --> 0:09:08.600 highly scientific term that gets tossed around a lot. Yeah, well, 0:09:08.880 --> 0:09:12.440 it's passive, and and that they don't learn any skills 0:09:12.480 --> 0:09:15.440 on how to interact. Um. Okay, So the first one 0:09:15.440 --> 0:09:17.680 would be that sort of entertainment thing, But the second, 0:09:17.720 --> 0:09:21.960 I guess would be the sort of child maintenance tasks 0:09:22.000 --> 0:09:25.280 like the you are in some sense when you're a parent, 0:09:25.320 --> 0:09:28.400 you're sort of a child custodian, So you have to 0:09:28.559 --> 0:09:32.800 change diapers, feed the child, wash the child. I'm sure 0:09:32.800 --> 0:09:36.440 there's lots of other things I don't even know about. Um. 0:09:36.760 --> 0:09:40.960 It's sort of like the physical mechanical activities of taking 0:09:41.000 --> 0:09:48.080 care of the child to help keep him or her healthy, clean, comfortable, happy, um. 0:09:48.120 --> 0:09:52.480 And this seems like more of a stretch than the entertainment, 0:09:52.960 --> 0:09:55.920 but at the same time not necessarily outside the realm 0:09:55.920 --> 0:09:59.120 of possibility, right, because we do have robotics that are 0:09:59.240 --> 0:10:02.240 capable of are acting very delicately with things, although we 0:10:02.280 --> 0:10:04.800 are just starting to develop those. Really, I think that 0:10:05.080 --> 0:10:08.160 safety concerns would be at the top of the maybe 0:10:08.200 --> 0:10:11.840 not so much list for this category exactly. So you 0:10:11.920 --> 0:10:14.439 can put a lot of trust in a robotic arm 0:10:14.640 --> 0:10:17.600 that is, you know, welding a car door thousands of 0:10:17.640 --> 0:10:20.920 times a day. I mean, obviously, car companies that use 0:10:20.960 --> 0:10:24.800 these invest in them and trust them enough to risk 0:10:25.240 --> 0:10:27.520 messing up all this equipment if they don't work right. 0:10:28.200 --> 0:10:31.440 But still you feel like more is at risk if 0:10:31.600 --> 0:10:35.199 your your baby is there. And if the diaper changing robot, 0:10:35.480 --> 0:10:38.800 you know, accidentally, even just nudges your baby too hard, 0:10:39.000 --> 0:10:41.640 that's something you really really don't want, of course. And 0:10:41.679 --> 0:10:45.120 also babies, I imagine squiggle around a whole lot more 0:10:45.120 --> 0:10:48.240 than that car door that's that's being welded. There's probably 0:10:48.280 --> 0:10:50.679 a lot more variables to worry about in terms of 0:10:50.760 --> 0:10:53.679 children than there are in terms of cars. Yeah, and 0:10:53.760 --> 0:10:58.880 I actually imagine that it's a harder robot programming problem 0:10:59.000 --> 0:11:03.280 to do that look at touch that is just precisely 0:11:03.400 --> 0:11:06.520 well something. Yeah. Well, well there's there's all that conversation 0:11:06.559 --> 0:11:09.559 about how difficult it is to get sensory feedback in 0:11:09.600 --> 0:11:12.360 a robot. Correct, so that so that you can pick up, 0:11:12.400 --> 0:11:15.040 for example, a styrofoam cup without crushing it. It's something 0:11:15.040 --> 0:11:17.200 that we as humans take for granted because we've got 0:11:17.200 --> 0:11:20.720 a really complex feedback system in our brains and sensory 0:11:20.840 --> 0:11:26.560 apparati haptic feedback. Yeah. Um, okay, so those are sort 0:11:26.600 --> 0:11:31.160 of items one to entertainment, and then child maintenance three 0:11:31.400 --> 0:11:34.520 is where we start getting into the Wow, this would 0:11:34.559 --> 0:11:36.800 be amazing, but I don't know. And this is keeping 0:11:36.880 --> 0:11:40.840 children safe, right, So that's the that's the keeping them 0:11:41.240 --> 0:11:44.959 like physically preventing them from running over to that knife block, Yeah, 0:11:45.040 --> 0:11:47.640 running into the street, crawling onto the stove. I mean, 0:11:47.880 --> 0:11:50.880 you never realize how many deadly things are in your 0:11:50.880 --> 0:11:54.760 house until there's a baby there. Uh. Actually, you know, 0:11:55.640 --> 0:11:58.720 my wife and I had a friend who brought his 0:11:58.920 --> 0:12:01.720 child over to our house, and suddenly our house, which 0:12:01.800 --> 0:12:05.640 normally seems so comfortable, seems so dangerous to me. I 0:12:05.720 --> 0:12:08.720 was like everything that has a corner on it, and 0:12:08.720 --> 0:12:13.680 you're just like, oh crap. Yeah. Um. And so taking 0:12:13.720 --> 0:12:16.360 care of a child and keeping that child safe obviously 0:12:17.480 --> 0:12:21.400 is something that's a very sensitive task and requires attention. 0:12:21.600 --> 0:12:25.640 Like a lot of what this parenting investment probably is 0:12:25.760 --> 0:12:28.800 a lot of times you're not even necessarily doing anything directly, 0:12:29.200 --> 0:12:32.440 you're just keeping a really close eye on things to 0:12:32.559 --> 0:12:35.679 make sure nothing dangerous happens, all right, allowing the child 0:12:35.720 --> 0:12:38.679 to to explore and play and interacting with it, but 0:12:38.679 --> 0:12:42.560 but also yeah, making sure it doesn't kill itself. Yeah. Now, 0:12:42.840 --> 0:12:48.360 this is where the robotics starts getting really difficult for me. Um, 0:12:48.400 --> 0:12:52.400 because unless you're in a very controlled environment, say like 0:12:52.440 --> 0:12:56.280 a safe room of some kind, you would need incredibly 0:12:56.400 --> 0:13:00.000 advanced AI on a robot that was designed to keep 0:13:00.080 --> 0:13:03.280 children safe. It would have to have something way beyond 0:13:03.440 --> 0:13:06.760 any kind of AI that that robots are capable of today, 0:13:06.880 --> 0:13:10.080 and very advanced motorization as well. It's really difficult at 0:13:10.440 --> 0:13:13.400 this juncture and robot express to create something that moves 0:13:13.440 --> 0:13:16.000 around with that kind of ease. Yeah, so just imagine 0:13:16.000 --> 0:13:18.600 the scenario is the child is running out into the 0:13:18.640 --> 0:13:21.040 street in a car is coming. So now you have 0:13:21.160 --> 0:13:26.360 to combine not only a robot with enough good sensory 0:13:26.400 --> 0:13:29.120 input to see that the danger is arriving, but good 0:13:29.240 --> 0:13:33.000 enough AI to realize that this is a danger. Um 0:13:33.400 --> 0:13:36.240 the delicate touch we were talking about in the you know, 0:13:36.280 --> 0:13:38.280 the diaper changing robot, because it would have to be 0:13:38.280 --> 0:13:41.000 able to scoop the child out of harm's way in 0:13:41.000 --> 0:13:43.400 a way that wouldn't hurt the child, right, because if 0:13:43.400 --> 0:13:46.040 you just hit the child with a speeding robot instead 0:13:46.040 --> 0:13:48.400 of a speeding car, you're not helping the situation. Right. 0:13:48.800 --> 0:13:51.440 Once you get to this stage, you're really starting to 0:13:51.480 --> 0:13:54.640 get into the i think, the kind of sci fi 0:13:54.880 --> 0:13:58.760 area of robotics where this is way way out there 0:13:58.840 --> 0:14:02.480 if it's ever possible. So, so, what's the most what's 0:14:02.520 --> 0:14:05.080 the most ridiculous thing that you've thought of? Okay, yeah, 0:14:05.080 --> 0:14:07.240 those are levels one through three. I would say that 0:14:07.679 --> 0:14:12.200 probably the hardest one is the idea of nurture, and 0:14:12.280 --> 0:14:15.640 that's sort of an abstract concept, but basically I'd say 0:14:15.640 --> 0:14:21.240 it's a synthesis of education, encouragement, and emotional bonding. It's 0:14:21.320 --> 0:14:24.320 that other thing parents do for their kids that's not 0:14:24.520 --> 0:14:27.800 sort of a mechanical task or involved in physical safety, 0:14:27.840 --> 0:14:32.000 but it's what parents do when they're having a relationship 0:14:32.080 --> 0:14:35.160 with their child. And and that's also maybe one of 0:14:35.160 --> 0:14:38.960 the things that that people pass the most judgment on 0:14:39.080 --> 0:14:41.720 of of whether or not a human being is ever 0:14:41.800 --> 0:14:45.000 doing a good enough job teaching their child and loving 0:14:45.000 --> 0:14:47.920 their child and paying attention to their child. Oh yeah, 0:14:47.960 --> 0:14:52.360 I mean, it's this incredibly deep, human nuanced kind of 0:14:52.400 --> 0:14:55.640 task that I don't know if we even really understand 0:14:55.680 --> 0:14:59.200 it well enough to codify what humans should be doing. Oh, 0:14:59.240 --> 0:15:03.240 we don't much less to have a robot do it 0:15:03.280 --> 0:15:05.880 for us. There's a lot of you know, psycho behavioral 0:15:05.920 --> 0:15:07.920 kind of studies out there about this sort of thing, 0:15:07.960 --> 0:15:11.320 and we're we're learning more about how brains develop, but 0:15:11.400 --> 0:15:15.280 it's it's all it's all very research based right now. Yeah, 0:15:15.360 --> 0:15:18.080 and then there's the other question of once you get 0:15:18.080 --> 0:15:21.760 to that level, you're probably talking about tasks where I'd 0:15:21.760 --> 0:15:26.160 imagine most parents wouldn't want a robot to replace them 0:15:26.200 --> 0:15:29.480 in this sort of nurturing category, even if it would 0:15:29.480 --> 0:15:31.640 free them up some time, Like that's the kind of 0:15:31.720 --> 0:15:34.040 sort of like the core of being a parent. That's 0:15:34.040 --> 0:15:38.920 why they became a parent. Yeah. Um, okay, so we've 0:15:38.960 --> 0:15:43.880 talked about this framework now, but what's actually out there, Like, 0:15:44.160 --> 0:15:47.800 are there any robots that are anywhere close to being 0:15:47.840 --> 0:15:51.720 a childcare robot? Well, there's already some robots for older 0:15:51.760 --> 0:15:56.160 adult companionship. Um and I and I say companionship because 0:15:56.360 --> 0:16:00.040 it's it's not caregiving kind of thing really. Um. You 0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:03.960 know you've got that that peroh the oh yeah, the 0:16:04.000 --> 0:16:11.640 seal Pepper robot. It is so cute, umunster fuzzy little 0:16:11.640 --> 0:16:15.320 electronic monster. Absolutely. Um. And there's others in testing that 0:16:15.360 --> 0:16:17.640 are that are more humanoid shaped. There's one called the 0:16:17.680 --> 0:16:20.360 Moby serve um that's being tested in Europe right now. 0:16:20.800 --> 0:16:24.720 But um, but you know, the tasks involved in childcare 0:16:24.960 --> 0:16:28.560 and and companionship for the elderly are so incredibly different, 0:16:28.680 --> 0:16:33.680 you know, but both involve monitoring and sympathetic interactions. But 0:16:33.680 --> 0:16:37.760 but companion robots are more like safety and remind your 0:16:37.800 --> 0:16:40.000 kind of based things. But what they're talking about, there's 0:16:40.040 --> 0:16:42.240 something that's going to go like oh, Hey, you left 0:16:42.240 --> 0:16:45.160 the stove on, Please turn that off? Or oh, hey 0:16:45.160 --> 0:16:48.600 did you take your medications today? Or hey, you seem 0:16:48.800 --> 0:16:51.520 like you're making that face that I have learned as sad. 0:16:51.760 --> 0:16:53.960 Would you like to call somebody and talk to them 0:16:54.000 --> 0:16:56.200 about how sad you are? You know that that kind 0:16:56.200 --> 0:16:58.920 of stuff, and that's not the kind of an interaction 0:16:58.960 --> 0:17:01.720 that you can have with a baby. Some experts think 0:17:01.720 --> 0:17:04.119 that it might be twenty years before we see reliable 0:17:04.440 --> 0:17:07.280 senior care robots on the market and the kind of 0:17:07.280 --> 0:17:09.280 care that that you were talking about in in your 0:17:09.320 --> 0:17:14.560 list of possible robot tasks there, what's required for for 0:17:14.600 --> 0:17:17.439 all of those is going to vary widely based on 0:17:17.480 --> 0:17:22.520 any given child's age, moods, and in particular needs. Yeah, okay, 0:17:22.920 --> 0:17:27.359 what about the soft touch. That's something I'm pretty curious about. Uh, 0:17:27.600 --> 0:17:32.040 the kind of very delicate handling that any robot dealing 0:17:32.240 --> 0:17:36.760 with a child whose bones are still forming and all that, 0:17:37.119 --> 0:17:39.480 or even if the fully formed bones, you still probably 0:17:39.480 --> 0:17:43.800 need to be delicate. I guess right, Um, material science 0:17:43.840 --> 0:17:46.200 is going to start helping out with this, and we're 0:17:47.320 --> 0:17:49.960 we are just brushing the surface of that kind of thing. 0:17:50.000 --> 0:17:54.280 Researchers are working on soft robots and flexible electronics, you know, 0:17:54.520 --> 0:17:57.280 things that move more like muscle and skin and don't 0:17:57.359 --> 0:17:59.639 have hard edges for baby to fall on. You know, 0:17:59.680 --> 0:18:02.000 it's thinking about how terrified I would be if something 0:18:02.040 --> 0:18:04.320 like R two D two showed up for my child 0:18:04.359 --> 0:18:06.240 to play with. That thing is just I mean, it's 0:18:06.280 --> 0:18:08.639 mostly smooth, but how many surfaces could it smack its 0:18:08.680 --> 0:18:11.639 head into? That's awful. Um, what I'm saying is that 0:18:11.720 --> 0:18:14.960 R two D two would be a terrible babysitter. Um, 0:18:15.000 --> 0:18:18.359 I'm sorry, or too, I love you, Um, but yeah, 0:18:18.440 --> 0:18:22.479 it's it's robotic engineering has so traditionally focused on rigid 0:18:22.520 --> 0:18:26.280 materials that there aren't even really soft material simulation tools 0:18:26.320 --> 0:18:29.680 available to robotic developers right now. And um, and and 0:18:29.800 --> 0:18:32.840 even power sources would have to be totally rethought for 0:18:32.880 --> 0:18:35.440 that kind of thing, because a traditional rotary motor would 0:18:35.440 --> 0:18:38.720 be really restrictive to something that's trying to be kind 0:18:38.720 --> 0:18:43.680 of amorphous and and movable and soft. Oh yeah, well, 0:18:44.000 --> 0:18:46.800 power is obviously one of the big issues, especially if 0:18:46.800 --> 0:18:49.720 you want a robot that's gonna follow your child around 0:18:49.720 --> 0:18:52.040 in the park. And again, like we said, make sure 0:18:52.080 --> 0:18:54.200 it doesn't go out in the street all right, All 0:18:54.240 --> 0:18:56.960 of that physical capacity stuff like like we were saying earlier, 0:18:57.000 --> 0:19:00.360 sensing and moving around sound like they're easy to do, 0:19:00.480 --> 0:19:03.560 but for robots they're very, very complicated, as we have 0:19:03.600 --> 0:19:06.960 talked about before on the show. Yeah. Uh, then kind 0:19:07.000 --> 0:19:09.800 of kind of following down your list, you've got emotion 0:19:09.840 --> 0:19:14.159 recognition and simulation of emotion to worry about, um, because 0:19:14.200 --> 0:19:16.360 you know, in order that would play in in sort 0:19:16.400 --> 0:19:19.320 of one and four right, like in the like social 0:19:19.359 --> 0:19:23.320 interaction and in the nurturing. Sure, and all of that 0:19:23.440 --> 0:19:26.560 is being studied and developed, but it's it's so complex. 0:19:26.600 --> 0:19:30.439 You know, input from humans is really nuanced and varied. Um, 0:19:30.680 --> 0:19:33.480 all of that stuff with with semantics and pattern recognition 0:19:33.680 --> 0:19:37.960 is so basic right now, and we have so much 0:19:37.960 --> 0:19:40.720 of it to learn about ourselves before we can teach 0:19:40.760 --> 0:19:42.840 a robot how to do it. Yeah. Well, I read 0:19:42.840 --> 0:19:46.400 a couple of studies actually saying that um, a sufficiently 0:19:47.000 --> 0:19:51.159 you know, convincing humanoid robot can get a child to 0:19:51.280 --> 0:19:53.960 want to interact with it and sort of ascribe some 0:19:54.040 --> 0:19:57.679 human emotions to it and at least be curious about it. Right, 0:19:57.880 --> 0:20:00.040 it might it might be harder to work back the 0:20:00.080 --> 0:20:03.760 other way to get the robot to recognize like the 0:20:03.800 --> 0:20:06.960 emotions of the child and and sort of understand its 0:20:07.000 --> 0:20:10.640 needs to be totally honest. Whenever, whenever I read stuff 0:20:10.680 --> 0:20:12.560 about this, I'm like, there are many days when I'm 0:20:12.640 --> 0:20:14.560 not sure what's going on with other people based on 0:20:14.560 --> 0:20:17.359 their facial expressions. So therefore, I'm not sure how I 0:20:17.440 --> 0:20:20.200 could expect a robot to do the same thing. Yeah, 0:20:20.320 --> 0:20:23.600 so how far away is just like Rosie the Jetsons, 0:20:24.200 --> 0:20:26.679 you know, you know, I don't think that we're ever 0:20:26.720 --> 0:20:28.880 going to have a Rosie. Honestly, I think that that's 0:20:28.920 --> 0:20:31.280 one of those things like like it would be nice, 0:20:31.480 --> 0:20:35.000 like the Singularity. That sounds terrific, But you know, I 0:20:35.440 --> 0:20:38.080 think part of what we need in order to have 0:20:38.240 --> 0:20:40.800 robot child care is is a basic change in the 0:20:40.840 --> 0:20:43.520 way that we think about human robot interaction. You know, 0:20:44.080 --> 0:20:46.200 if if we have this concept that we're going to 0:20:46.280 --> 0:20:49.600 have this this robot, this kind of better than human, 0:20:49.800 --> 0:20:55.320 perfect thing that is more capable than we are, doing 0:20:55.400 --> 0:20:57.520 tasks for us that we just don't want to do. 0:20:58.160 --> 0:21:02.679 That's that science fiction, folks, At least it certainly is 0:21:02.880 --> 0:21:05.240 for the foreseeable future. And I think that a lot 0:21:05.240 --> 0:21:08.000 of our concepts about all that is really rooted in 0:21:08.040 --> 0:21:10.840 science fiction, which is a terrific model for for thinking 0:21:10.840 --> 0:21:13.199 about the future. Obviously, I mean, I mean we talk 0:21:13.280 --> 0:21:15.000 about it so much on the show. Oh yeah, I 0:21:15.040 --> 0:21:18.359 mean when you whenever you talk about interacting with robots, 0:21:18.359 --> 0:21:20.560 you have to think about Asimov. Oh yeah, and and 0:21:20.600 --> 0:21:24.439 his and his rules. Those those three rules of robotics. Right, 0:21:24.600 --> 0:21:27.600 robots can't harm humans, right, number one. Number two is 0:21:27.680 --> 0:21:30.679 they have to obey humans, right. And then three is 0:21:30.720 --> 0:21:35.160 they can't self destruct, right, but they're prioritized like that exactly. Yeah, 0:21:35.200 --> 0:21:37.600 and then two and three are each based on right 0:21:37.720 --> 0:21:40.919 the previous rules. Um. But but the thing is is 0:21:40.960 --> 0:21:44.760 that these these rules were written to be interestingly flawed. 0:21:44.800 --> 0:21:47.680 I mean that the story that he wrote happens because 0:21:47.880 --> 0:21:51.720 of the flaws, and so you can't really base reality 0:21:51.960 --> 0:21:55.800 on inherently flawed rules. A couple of engineers, David Woods 0:21:55.800 --> 0:21:59.000 and Robin Murphy, have done some interesting writing about that, 0:21:59.119 --> 0:22:02.000 and and they say that better rules would focus on 0:22:02.000 --> 0:22:05.359 a realistic view of human responsibility for for safety and 0:22:05.400 --> 0:22:08.960 ethics in robot deployment. It's true, once you get into 0:22:09.000 --> 0:22:12.480 the idea of a more complex robot interacting with the child, 0:22:12.560 --> 0:22:16.080 say anything beyond maybe one or two of the list, 0:22:16.240 --> 0:22:20.800 Like once you're getting into full on interaction, robust interaction 0:22:20.960 --> 0:22:24.760 that you know is uh, sort of free ranging and 0:22:24.800 --> 0:22:28.399 that the child's safety is dependent upon. Right. Once you 0:22:28.440 --> 0:22:31.760 get into that realm, you're really talking about machine ethics, 0:22:31.920 --> 0:22:35.880 which is a whole other topic, um, and and one 0:22:35.920 --> 0:22:38.480 that we could do tons of shows about and probably 0:22:38.480 --> 0:22:40.639 will in the future. I'm sure that this will come 0:22:40.720 --> 0:22:42.480 up again, yes, but I want to bring it back 0:22:42.520 --> 0:22:46.560 to examples because I'm sure you know, uh, like Brian 0:22:46.960 --> 0:22:50.760 was asking about this, I mean everybody's wondering, like, is 0:22:51.240 --> 0:22:54.159 anybody trying to sell a childcare robot today? I mean, 0:22:54.200 --> 0:22:59.320