1 00:00:14,956 --> 00:00:24,036 Speaker 1: Pushkin Hey, Slight Change listeners, it's maya. New episodes of 2 00:00:24,076 --> 00:00:26,236 Speaker 1: A Slight Change of Plans are coming to your feed 3 00:00:26,276 --> 00:00:29,556 Speaker 1: this October. In the meantime, I wanted to share my 4 00:00:29,596 --> 00:00:33,916 Speaker 1: conversation with rock climber Tommy Caldwell. We talk about his 5 00:00:34,076 --> 00:00:37,196 Speaker 1: near death experience and how it helped unlock a new 6 00:00:37,236 --> 00:00:40,756 Speaker 1: state of mind. That mindset propelled him to become one 7 00:00:40,796 --> 00:00:43,596 Speaker 1: of the greatest rock climbers in the world. I hope 8 00:00:43,596 --> 00:00:44,236 Speaker 1: you enjoy it. 9 00:00:54,956 --> 00:00:58,356 Speaker 2: I definitely always felt like adversity is what brings us 10 00:00:58,356 --> 00:01:01,396 Speaker 2: to life, but this turned up the volume on that 11 00:01:01,676 --> 00:01:03,196 Speaker 2: in a pretty incredible way. 12 00:01:03,876 --> 00:01:06,796 Speaker 1: That's Tommy Caldwell, who's considered one of the best rock 13 00:01:06,836 --> 00:01:10,196 Speaker 1: climbers in the world. When he was on a climbing expedition, 14 00:01:10,356 --> 00:01:12,636 Speaker 1: he had a near death experience where he was held 15 00:01:12,716 --> 00:01:15,916 Speaker 1: hostage for six days, and he says what he endured 16 00:01:15,956 --> 00:01:19,236 Speaker 1: on that mountain unlocked a completely new state of mind, 17 00:01:19,756 --> 00:01:21,636 Speaker 1: one he describes as a flow state. 18 00:01:22,396 --> 00:01:25,356 Speaker 2: To me, that flow state in its most pure form 19 00:01:25,596 --> 00:01:31,156 Speaker 2: is like this moment where it's almost like everything slows down. 20 00:01:31,556 --> 00:01:35,196 Speaker 2: You feel weightless, you feel like your vision is a cue. 21 00:01:35,196 --> 00:01:39,356 Speaker 2: You notice detail in this incredible way. It's like in 22 00:01:39,396 --> 00:01:44,116 Speaker 2: the moment where all odds are against you, suddenly it's 23 00:01:44,236 --> 00:01:45,636 Speaker 2: like the clarity comes. 24 00:01:46,836 --> 00:01:50,636 Speaker 1: Tommy tapped into this elusive, intoxicating mental state more than 25 00:01:50,676 --> 00:01:54,836 Speaker 1: twenty years ago, and he's been relentlessly chasing it ever since. 26 00:01:55,876 --> 00:01:58,676 Speaker 1: I'm maya Shunker and this is a slight change of plans, 27 00:01:59,116 --> 00:02:01,436 Speaker 1: a show that dives deep into the world of change 28 00:02:01,636 --> 00:02:04,476 Speaker 1: and hopefully gets us to think differently about change in 29 00:02:04,516 --> 00:02:28,956 Speaker 1: our own lives. So to jump in, I would love 30 00:02:29,036 --> 00:02:32,156 Speaker 1: to just hear a bit more about how it is 31 00:02:32,156 --> 00:02:33,196 Speaker 1: that you got into climbing. 32 00:02:33,436 --> 00:02:35,276 Speaker 2: I mean I got into climbing because of my father. 33 00:02:35,356 --> 00:02:38,636 Speaker 2: He was a mountain god, pretty extraordinary human being. He 34 00:02:38,676 --> 00:02:42,796 Speaker 2: was a bodybuilder in the like eighties and early nineties, 35 00:02:42,916 --> 00:02:48,236 Speaker 2: like big, super macho man. He had this incredible love 36 00:02:48,236 --> 00:02:52,076 Speaker 2: of adventure, and he was a middle school teacher, and 37 00:02:52,156 --> 00:02:55,316 Speaker 2: so he blended all those things together and used me 38 00:02:55,436 --> 00:02:57,836 Speaker 2: kind of as his test subject. Like I was actually, 39 00:02:58,796 --> 00:03:05,436 Speaker 2: at least socially and probably mentally, a pretty meek, delayed 40 00:03:05,516 --> 00:03:07,436 Speaker 2: child in a lot of ways. You know, I'm not 41 00:03:07,476 --> 00:03:10,356 Speaker 2: good at the mental things. You know, I'm socially really 42 00:03:10,396 --> 00:03:12,436 Speaker 2: shy and having a really macho dout He's like, we 43 00:03:12,516 --> 00:03:14,716 Speaker 2: got to figure out ways to like toughen this kid 44 00:03:14,796 --> 00:03:16,876 Speaker 2: up so that he can deal with the world. And 45 00:03:16,916 --> 00:03:18,876 Speaker 2: he might have overcompensated a little bit. 46 00:03:18,916 --> 00:03:22,316 Speaker 1: But I did not have a cool or adventurous childhood, 47 00:03:22,316 --> 00:03:24,596 Speaker 1: So I'm curious to know what that's like, Like, what's 48 00:03:24,596 --> 00:03:26,356 Speaker 1: an example of something you would do with your dad. 49 00:03:26,676 --> 00:03:28,996 Speaker 2: I mean to a lot of people, my childhood seemed 50 00:03:28,996 --> 00:03:33,156 Speaker 2: pretty insane, especially back then. I Mean, one example is, 51 00:03:33,236 --> 00:03:35,756 Speaker 2: we hiked to the Lost Arrow Spire, which is the 52 00:03:35,876 --> 00:03:40,396 Speaker 2: spire that sits two thousand feet above the valley floor 53 00:03:40,276 --> 00:03:43,156 Speaker 2: and you seventy National Park, and we repelled down four 54 00:03:43,236 --> 00:03:45,836 Speaker 2: hundred feet off the rim of Usemni Valley with you know, 55 00:03:45,876 --> 00:03:47,876 Speaker 2: two thousand feet of exposure below us. 56 00:03:48,156 --> 00:03:48,476 Speaker 1: Wow. 57 00:03:48,516 --> 00:03:51,276 Speaker 2: I did this as like maybe six or seven years old. 58 00:03:51,796 --> 00:03:54,116 Speaker 1: Were you scared? Like did this stuff come naturally to you? 59 00:03:54,276 --> 00:03:55,436 Speaker 1: Or was it really hard? 60 00:03:56,516 --> 00:03:58,716 Speaker 2: I think there were there's a couple moments from my 61 00:03:58,796 --> 00:04:02,596 Speaker 2: childhood where I remember feeling pretty scared, like this was 62 00:04:02,636 --> 00:04:05,916 Speaker 2: a bit much. But those were definitely the exceptions. Like 63 00:04:06,636 --> 00:04:12,116 Speaker 2: I developed a sort of fear tolerance that is probably 64 00:04:12,596 --> 00:04:15,236 Speaker 2: part of the reason I've been able to excel the 65 00:04:15,236 --> 00:04:17,276 Speaker 2: way I do now, but there's certainly been times in 66 00:04:17,316 --> 00:04:19,476 Speaker 2: my life where I wonder if it's unhealthy, Like I 67 00:04:19,516 --> 00:04:21,156 Speaker 2: don't get scared when I should. 68 00:04:23,116 --> 00:04:24,476 Speaker 1: But can you say a little more about that. 69 00:04:25,076 --> 00:04:28,676 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean the types of climbing that I do 70 00:04:28,756 --> 00:04:31,676 Speaker 2: in the higher mountains, like when I go to Patagonia, 71 00:04:31,676 --> 00:04:35,116 Speaker 2: for instance, there's a lot of objective hazard. Like there's 72 00:04:35,236 --> 00:04:38,676 Speaker 2: instances where you're climbing up a mountain and you know, 73 00:04:38,836 --> 00:04:41,596 Speaker 2: some rock fall event happens, and like a big rock 74 00:04:41,636 --> 00:04:44,076 Speaker 2: will fall and land on a ledge twenty feet away 75 00:04:44,116 --> 00:04:47,396 Speaker 2: from you, and most people get freaked out by that 76 00:04:47,516 --> 00:04:49,636 Speaker 2: kind of thing, like they have this emotional kind of 77 00:04:49,636 --> 00:04:53,236 Speaker 2: adrenal reaction, and I don't have that so much, And 78 00:04:53,236 --> 00:04:54,996 Speaker 2: I wonder if that's unhealthy. 79 00:04:55,676 --> 00:04:57,996 Speaker 1: Was this just a natural trait that you had or 80 00:04:58,036 --> 00:04:59,756 Speaker 1: did you did you feel like you were building it 81 00:04:59,796 --> 00:05:01,036 Speaker 1: over time as a kid? 82 00:05:01,476 --> 00:05:03,516 Speaker 2: I feel like for me, I was building it over time. 83 00:05:03,676 --> 00:05:06,276 Speaker 2: Like there are certain climbs that I go and do, 84 00:05:06,716 --> 00:05:10,196 Speaker 2: climbs where I might fall twenty thirty FI defeat at 85 00:05:10,196 --> 00:05:11,996 Speaker 2: a time before I get caught from the rope. That 86 00:05:12,036 --> 00:05:15,796 Speaker 2: feels incredibly terrifying at first, early on in the season, 87 00:05:15,836 --> 00:05:18,196 Speaker 2: but I get more and more used to it over time. 88 00:05:18,196 --> 00:05:20,436 Speaker 2: So I think that can happen within a season or 89 00:05:20,476 --> 00:05:22,116 Speaker 2: on a certain climb, but I think it can also 90 00:05:22,196 --> 00:05:25,396 Speaker 2: happen in a way over the length of your life. 91 00:05:25,476 --> 00:05:28,436 Speaker 2: And so since I started really young doing this stuff, 92 00:05:28,676 --> 00:05:31,476 Speaker 2: I believe that that's why I am the way I am. 93 00:05:31,516 --> 00:05:31,916 Speaker 2: I guess. 94 00:05:32,796 --> 00:05:36,196 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so interesting, as you were simply describing that, 95 00:05:36,356 --> 00:05:38,676 Speaker 1: I felt tingles in my fingers and a pit in 96 00:05:38,676 --> 00:05:42,836 Speaker 1: my stomach imagining being at that height, so sadly, Yeah, 97 00:05:42,836 --> 00:05:45,516 Speaker 1: I think my brain architecture is slightly different from yours. 98 00:05:45,796 --> 00:05:48,236 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's probably more healthy your way. Honestly. 99 00:05:49,556 --> 00:05:51,996 Speaker 1: When Tommy's twenty two, he gets invited to go on 100 00:05:52,036 --> 00:05:55,276 Speaker 1: a climbing trip with three other climbers to Kyrghyzstan, this 101 00:05:55,476 --> 00:05:59,916 Speaker 1: beautiful mountainous country in Central Asia. Tommy being Tommy, is 102 00:05:59,916 --> 00:06:02,876 Speaker 1: of course excited for the challenge, but the real reason 103 00:06:02,916 --> 00:06:05,196 Speaker 1: he wants to go is because of another climber on 104 00:06:05,236 --> 00:06:06,596 Speaker 1: the trip, Death Rodden. 105 00:06:07,036 --> 00:06:10,076 Speaker 2: Yeah, that was certainly my main motivation behind the trip. 106 00:06:10,116 --> 00:06:12,476 Speaker 2: I would say we were really really kind of early 107 00:06:12,556 --> 00:06:14,356 Speaker 2: on in our dating period at that time. 108 00:06:14,236 --> 00:06:16,996 Speaker 1: So this was during the like still wooing her stage. 109 00:06:17,036 --> 00:06:20,476 Speaker 1: Is that why you were so excited to go absolutely yeah, okay, 110 00:06:20,756 --> 00:06:24,676 Speaker 1: got it. So can you paint a little bit of 111 00:06:24,796 --> 00:06:28,196 Speaker 1: a scene for me about when you first arrived in Kyrgusan, Like, 112 00:06:28,236 --> 00:06:30,636 Speaker 1: what is it like and what climbing lies ahead of you. 113 00:06:31,076 --> 00:06:34,156 Speaker 2: Yeah, so we flew in, come around this corner and 114 00:06:34,196 --> 00:06:38,476 Speaker 2: we see these magnificent snow covered peaks. If you've ever 115 00:06:38,516 --> 00:06:42,236 Speaker 2: been in a region like the Himalayas or something, the mountains, 116 00:06:42,236 --> 00:06:45,876 Speaker 2: they are just so big and so beautiful that it's surreal. 117 00:06:45,916 --> 00:06:47,716 Speaker 2: I mean, it looks like you're looking at a painting. 118 00:06:47,756 --> 00:06:50,996 Speaker 2: It looks completely unreal. And so those big snow covered 119 00:06:50,996 --> 00:06:53,996 Speaker 2: mountains are in the background, and then these big rock spires, 120 00:06:54,036 --> 00:06:56,596 Speaker 2: these incredible rock spires with perfect rock, the kind of 121 00:06:56,596 --> 00:06:59,476 Speaker 2: thing that climbers dream of, were kind of in the foreground. 122 00:06:59,596 --> 00:07:02,076 Speaker 2: So we flew and there was a bit of a 123 00:07:02,156 --> 00:07:05,676 Speaker 2: valley kind of below all of the rock spires, and 124 00:07:05,756 --> 00:07:09,396 Speaker 2: so that's where we made our base camp. And of 125 00:07:09,436 --> 00:07:12,236 Speaker 2: the people that live in the valley came and visited 126 00:07:12,276 --> 00:07:15,556 Speaker 2: with us and brought us, you know, yak milk and 127 00:07:15,636 --> 00:07:20,236 Speaker 2: butter and fresh baked bread, and it was like, yeah, yeah, 128 00:07:20,276 --> 00:07:22,956 Speaker 2: it was pretty idealistic, like they hadn't they had they 129 00:07:22,956 --> 00:07:26,156 Speaker 2: had encountered climbing teams like us in the past, because 130 00:07:26,156 --> 00:07:27,756 Speaker 2: this is the place that people had been coming and 131 00:07:27,796 --> 00:07:31,356 Speaker 2: climbing for ten or fifteen years, so we knew that 132 00:07:31,396 --> 00:07:34,276 Speaker 2: we would encounter them, so we brought toys to play 133 00:07:34,276 --> 00:07:39,396 Speaker 2: with the kids and bits of candy and stuff. Yeah, 134 00:07:39,396 --> 00:07:42,356 Speaker 2: it was. It was absolutely beautiful, certainly sort of a 135 00:07:42,436 --> 00:07:45,396 Speaker 2: dream trip. Everything I kind of expected and hoped for 136 00:07:45,556 --> 00:07:46,436 Speaker 2: at first. 137 00:07:47,636 --> 00:07:50,236 Speaker 1: Can you describe the moment when you realized that you 138 00:07:50,276 --> 00:07:50,956 Speaker 1: were in danger? 139 00:07:52,956 --> 00:07:57,156 Speaker 2: Yeah, so it was very distinct. We had been in 140 00:07:57,156 --> 00:08:00,996 Speaker 2: the valley for five or six days. We had sort 141 00:08:00,996 --> 00:08:03,916 Speaker 2: of walked around and scoped the rocks and decided that 142 00:08:03,956 --> 00:08:05,556 Speaker 2: we were going to do our warm up climb on 143 00:08:05,596 --> 00:08:08,436 Speaker 2: this mountain, which is about a two thousand foot nearly 144 00:08:08,516 --> 00:08:11,196 Speaker 2: vertical rock cliff. And then we had spent the first 145 00:08:11,236 --> 00:08:13,876 Speaker 2: day climbing about halfway up that wall, so a thousand 146 00:08:13,956 --> 00:08:16,836 Speaker 2: feet up. We you know, the style of climbing we're doing. 147 00:08:16,876 --> 00:08:19,236 Speaker 2: You climb one hundred or two hundred feet up, and 148 00:08:19,276 --> 00:08:22,756 Speaker 2: then you haul all of your equipment up, which is food, water, 149 00:08:23,356 --> 00:08:26,676 Speaker 2: portal ledges. There's no horizontal places to sleep, so you 150 00:08:26,716 --> 00:08:28,676 Speaker 2: set up your porta ledges and we had this hanging 151 00:08:28,796 --> 00:08:32,036 Speaker 2: camp a thousand feet up this wall, and that was 152 00:08:32,076 --> 00:08:35,076 Speaker 2: actually the night of my birthday. Beth presents me with 153 00:08:35,116 --> 00:08:38,516 Speaker 2: this candle we seeing Happy birthday. It's like there's no 154 00:08:38,676 --> 00:08:41,636 Speaker 2: light pollution at all in this place because you're literally 155 00:08:41,676 --> 00:08:47,276 Speaker 2: fifty miles from the nearest source of electricity, and the 156 00:08:47,356 --> 00:08:50,116 Speaker 2: stars are brilliant and these, you know, the moonlight is 157 00:08:50,156 --> 00:08:54,236 Speaker 2: illuminating these these snow covered peaks up valley, and it's yeah, 158 00:08:54,276 --> 00:08:57,636 Speaker 2: it's a pretty incredible scene. So we go to beds 159 00:08:57,756 --> 00:09:01,836 Speaker 2: feeling like everything's great, and then at very first light 160 00:09:01,876 --> 00:09:05,476 Speaker 2: the next morning, we awake to gunshots, like just startled 161 00:09:05,476 --> 00:09:08,876 Speaker 2: awake to gunshots. And first we thought that it was 162 00:09:09,796 --> 00:09:12,956 Speaker 2: just some hunters in the valley, probably, but then bullets 163 00:09:12,956 --> 00:09:14,916 Speaker 2: started to hit this roof of rock that was right 164 00:09:14,916 --> 00:09:16,956 Speaker 2: above us, and so we realized they were they were 165 00:09:16,956 --> 00:09:20,396 Speaker 2: actually shooting at us. They were close by. We had 166 00:09:20,636 --> 00:09:23,876 Speaker 2: a big camera with us with a long telephoto lens, 167 00:09:24,276 --> 00:09:26,316 Speaker 2: and so we pulled out that camera and we could 168 00:09:26,356 --> 00:09:30,076 Speaker 2: look down to the ground almost like looking through you know, binoculars, 169 00:09:30,116 --> 00:09:35,316 Speaker 2: and we could see these heavily armed militants on the ground. 170 00:09:35,636 --> 00:09:38,516 Speaker 2: We felt very vulnerable, Like we're expecting bullets to just 171 00:09:38,596 --> 00:09:40,716 Speaker 2: rip through the bottom of the portal edge at any moment. 172 00:09:41,556 --> 00:09:46,076 Speaker 1: Wow. So in that moment, are you thinking, Okay, they 173 00:09:46,156 --> 00:09:49,796 Speaker 1: might have missed slightly with the first few shots, but 174 00:09:50,236 --> 00:09:51,236 Speaker 1: you know we're going to die. 175 00:09:51,556 --> 00:09:54,036 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's exactly what we're worried about. There's no way 176 00:09:54,036 --> 00:09:56,556 Speaker 2: to run away. I mean, it's just complete vulnerability. It's 177 00:09:56,556 --> 00:09:59,956 Speaker 2: like somebody's shooting at you and you can't hide behind anything. 178 00:10:01,156 --> 00:10:03,956 Speaker 1: Yeah. You're literally a fix to a vertical wall in 179 00:10:04,076 --> 00:10:06,796 Speaker 1: a tent right there. There's literally no escape route. 180 00:10:06,756 --> 00:10:09,396 Speaker 2: Right yeah, I mean moving out of the way. It 181 00:10:09,396 --> 00:10:11,596 Speaker 2: would have been you know, a several hour process to 182 00:10:12,396 --> 00:10:14,996 Speaker 2: just get up and around the corner or something. 183 00:10:15,796 --> 00:10:18,876 Speaker 1: Okay. So then so you hear these gun shots. What 184 00:10:18,956 --> 00:10:20,836 Speaker 1: happens next. 185 00:10:21,076 --> 00:10:23,876 Speaker 2: Through our telephoto camera lens, we see them sort of 186 00:10:23,956 --> 00:10:28,036 Speaker 2: waving at us to come down, and we know that 187 00:10:28,756 --> 00:10:31,436 Speaker 2: we have no other option. Basically, they've got these big guns. 188 00:10:31,476 --> 00:10:35,076 Speaker 2: They've proved that that they're good shots with these guns, 189 00:10:35,116 --> 00:10:37,196 Speaker 2: and so we're like, we have to go down. So 190 00:10:37,236 --> 00:10:40,316 Speaker 2: we have a discussion and we decide that John Dickey, 191 00:10:40,316 --> 00:10:43,556 Speaker 2: who is the oldest member of our expedition, will go 192 00:10:43,636 --> 00:10:45,916 Speaker 2: down and try and talk to them. We're just trying 193 00:10:45,916 --> 00:10:47,996 Speaker 2: to be super optimistic at this point. Maybe they just 194 00:10:48,036 --> 00:10:52,196 Speaker 2: want information, we don't really know. And so John starts 195 00:10:52,316 --> 00:10:55,996 Speaker 2: descending down the wall. Takes him probably nearly an hour, 196 00:10:56,596 --> 00:10:59,276 Speaker 2: and he gets down there, and we have these two 197 00:10:59,276 --> 00:11:01,676 Speaker 2: way radios and he had taken one of them. When 198 00:11:01,716 --> 00:11:04,596 Speaker 2: he gets down there, he just he just sounds very serious. 199 00:11:04,676 --> 00:11:07,996 Speaker 2: He radios back to us and he's like, you guys 200 00:11:08,036 --> 00:11:11,156 Speaker 2: are just gonna have to come down. So the other 201 00:11:11,196 --> 00:11:14,116 Speaker 2: three of us just start descending down the wall, and 202 00:11:14,156 --> 00:11:16,716 Speaker 2: when we get to the ground, we're confronted with a 203 00:11:16,756 --> 00:11:20,476 Speaker 2: pretty scary scene. I would say. There's two heavily armed 204 00:11:21,276 --> 00:11:26,636 Speaker 2: men that are wearing this combination of like army fatigues, 205 00:11:27,236 --> 00:11:29,916 Speaker 2: so they look pretty scary, but their demeanor is actually 206 00:11:30,076 --> 00:11:33,356 Speaker 2: pretty chill. They wait for us. We get to the 207 00:11:33,356 --> 00:11:36,316 Speaker 2: ground and they're just kind of sitting around, not really 208 00:11:36,396 --> 00:11:39,036 Speaker 2: saying that much, and then they just kind of wave 209 00:11:39,156 --> 00:11:41,156 Speaker 2: us on to follow them back to base camp. 210 00:11:41,996 --> 00:11:44,076 Speaker 1: A conflict had broken out in the country between the 211 00:11:44,156 --> 00:11:47,836 Speaker 1: Kregeese Army and the Islamic Movement of Zbekistan. Up on 212 00:11:47,876 --> 00:11:50,556 Speaker 1: the mountain, a small group of the militants had captured 213 00:11:50,556 --> 00:11:53,316 Speaker 1: a Krgee soldier, and when Tommy and the rest of 214 00:11:53,316 --> 00:11:55,756 Speaker 1: his climbing crew were forced down the mountain, they were 215 00:11:55,796 --> 00:11:57,636 Speaker 1: able to get a closer look at the soldier. 216 00:11:58,156 --> 00:12:01,796 Speaker 2: He just looked very stern, you know, he looked kind 217 00:12:01,836 --> 00:12:04,356 Speaker 2: of scared and very stern, and he had blood all 218 00:12:04,356 --> 00:12:06,836 Speaker 2: over his pants. And I think there was at one 219 00:12:06,876 --> 00:12:08,796 Speaker 2: moment in there where John looked over at us and 220 00:12:08,796 --> 00:12:11,996 Speaker 2: he's like, were hostages. I think were hostages, And so 221 00:12:12,556 --> 00:12:13,796 Speaker 2: that's kind of when it struck us. 222 00:12:14,716 --> 00:12:17,676 Speaker 1: The militants waste no time. They lead Tommy and Beth 223 00:12:17,716 --> 00:12:20,196 Speaker 1: and the other climbers into the mountain side at gunpoint, 224 00:12:20,756 --> 00:12:22,836 Speaker 1: and as they start to cross the river, a group 225 00:12:22,876 --> 00:12:25,316 Speaker 1: of Kirki soldiers appear at the top of the hill 226 00:12:25,796 --> 00:12:27,276 Speaker 1: and start shooting at them. 227 00:12:27,596 --> 00:12:30,916 Speaker 2: This battle breaks out, essentially, and we hide in this bush, 228 00:12:31,036 --> 00:12:35,556 Speaker 2: and Beth and myself and this Kurky soldier end up 229 00:12:35,556 --> 00:12:38,556 Speaker 2: in this bush together. The next thing that happened is 230 00:12:38,636 --> 00:12:42,556 Speaker 2: the rebels told us one by one to run up 231 00:12:42,596 --> 00:12:47,676 Speaker 2: behind this boulder, and the Kirky soldier went first, and 232 00:12:47,876 --> 00:12:49,796 Speaker 2: as soon as he got up behind the boulder, we 233 00:12:49,876 --> 00:12:53,836 Speaker 2: heard these handgun shots which were different than the rifle shots, 234 00:12:53,836 --> 00:12:56,196 Speaker 2: and they had just shot him in the shot him 235 00:12:56,196 --> 00:12:58,476 Speaker 2: in the head right there, and then the rest of 236 00:12:58,556 --> 00:13:00,276 Speaker 2: us had to go up and hide behind that boulder 237 00:13:00,316 --> 00:13:03,116 Speaker 2: as this battle sort of erupted around us. It was 238 00:13:03,156 --> 00:13:06,156 Speaker 2: a full on like war scene. We're hiding behind this boulder. 239 00:13:06,356 --> 00:13:08,916 Speaker 2: The boulder was getting you know, bullets were ricocheting off 240 00:13:08,916 --> 00:13:12,236 Speaker 2: the We were behind it, sitting on the dead body 241 00:13:12,516 --> 00:13:16,276 Speaker 2: of this other Kurgey soldier, and they were shooting these 242 00:13:16,516 --> 00:13:20,116 Speaker 2: mortars across at us. I mean, we were kind of 243 00:13:20,116 --> 00:13:21,716 Speaker 2: certain that we were going to die at any moment. 244 00:13:23,676 --> 00:13:28,076 Speaker 1: I'm just imagining the juxtaposition of going from these immensely 245 00:13:28,716 --> 00:13:34,636 Speaker 1: peaceful climbs in this expansive valley to absolute life or 246 00:13:34,636 --> 00:13:37,036 Speaker 1: death insanity. What do you remember feeling? 247 00:13:37,876 --> 00:13:41,316 Speaker 2: Definitely running on adrenaline, totally surreal. I feel like that 248 00:13:41,476 --> 00:13:45,196 Speaker 2: is not like the rest of life at all. And 249 00:13:45,356 --> 00:13:49,476 Speaker 2: I think it was fear that was more intense and 250 00:13:49,596 --> 00:13:51,836 Speaker 2: far different than anything I had noticed. Like in some 251 00:13:51,916 --> 00:13:54,916 Speaker 2: ways I was used to dealing with fear because of 252 00:13:54,956 --> 00:13:57,476 Speaker 2: my climbing life, but this was just way different. 253 00:13:58,476 --> 00:14:00,796 Speaker 1: Tommy, Beth and their crew managed to make it out 254 00:14:00,796 --> 00:14:04,156 Speaker 1: of this skirmish alive, but they're still being held captive 255 00:14:04,196 --> 00:14:07,756 Speaker 1: by two militant rebels. They can't communicate with their captors 256 00:14:07,796 --> 00:14:10,436 Speaker 1: because they don't speak the same lifeuage, but from what 257 00:14:10,476 --> 00:14:12,996 Speaker 1: they can glean, there's an older guy who seems to 258 00:14:12,996 --> 00:14:17,036 Speaker 1: be in charge, and then a teenager named Scherapov. During 259 00:14:17,076 --> 00:14:19,876 Speaker 1: the day, the militants lead them around and what ultimately 260 00:14:19,956 --> 00:14:23,316 Speaker 1: ends up being a big circle looking for hiding places. 261 00:14:23,676 --> 00:14:25,636 Speaker 2: And we don't have any food. We had we had 262 00:14:25,636 --> 00:14:27,756 Speaker 2: to abandon all of our food except I had managed 263 00:14:27,756 --> 00:14:30,956 Speaker 2: to shove like five or six energy bars into my pocket. 264 00:14:31,116 --> 00:14:33,956 Speaker 2: So each day we would in the evening, we would 265 00:14:33,996 --> 00:14:36,916 Speaker 2: split one of those energy bars between the six of us, 266 00:14:37,196 --> 00:14:39,556 Speaker 2: and that's the only food we had, and we do 267 00:14:40,316 --> 00:14:41,996 Speaker 2: kind of feel like we're all in it together, like 268 00:14:42,076 --> 00:14:44,356 Speaker 2: we share our food with them. They didn't just take 269 00:14:44,356 --> 00:14:46,756 Speaker 2: all of our food. They shared it with us, those 270 00:14:46,836 --> 00:14:50,636 Speaker 2: six you know, energy bars that we had, and the 271 00:14:50,716 --> 00:14:54,756 Speaker 2: demeanor became pretty friendly a lot at the time, and 272 00:14:54,836 --> 00:14:59,356 Speaker 2: then during the daylight hours we would hide in usually 273 00:14:59,476 --> 00:15:03,676 Speaker 2: just absolutely miserable hiding spots, like you know, by rivers, 274 00:15:03,836 --> 00:15:07,676 Speaker 2: under boulders. It was always super cold, you know, our 275 00:15:07,716 --> 00:15:10,996 Speaker 2: teeth were chattering all day live every day to the 276 00:15:10,996 --> 00:15:14,076 Speaker 2: point where our jaws and our mouths got really sort 277 00:15:14,476 --> 00:15:17,996 Speaker 2: We'd be sitting there hiding for fourteen hours of daylight 278 00:15:18,076 --> 00:15:19,676 Speaker 2: or whatever, and it would feel like a week. 279 00:15:20,356 --> 00:15:22,276 Speaker 1: Did you ever worry that you were going to die 280 00:15:22,316 --> 00:15:25,796 Speaker 1: of hypothermia, so it's not just the potential of being killed, 281 00:15:25,836 --> 00:15:28,196 Speaker 1: but also you just might die from extreme conditions. 282 00:15:28,516 --> 00:15:31,196 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, that was definitely a worry of ours. We 283 00:15:31,196 --> 00:15:34,116 Speaker 2: were probably on the verge most of the time, and 284 00:15:34,396 --> 00:15:38,396 Speaker 2: we're at a point where we can't really just sit 285 00:15:38,436 --> 00:15:41,916 Speaker 2: through these conditions anymore. But then, weirdly, at times, I 286 00:15:41,916 --> 00:15:44,436 Speaker 2: think this is sort of a proven thing that happens 287 00:15:44,676 --> 00:15:47,796 Speaker 2: when you go through this severe hunger, is you have 288 00:15:47,876 --> 00:15:50,756 Speaker 2: these moments of like mental clarity, like you feel like 289 00:15:50,876 --> 00:15:54,636 Speaker 2: you are almost more alive than ever. As you're starving 290 00:15:54,636 --> 00:15:56,556 Speaker 2: to death, your body just sort of starts to kick 291 00:15:56,596 --> 00:16:01,036 Speaker 2: into this like survival mode, and so you sort of 292 00:16:01,116 --> 00:16:05,236 Speaker 2: alternate alternate between that and then other times just feeling 293 00:16:05,316 --> 00:16:08,956 Speaker 2: really lethargic and really slow and you know, really hungry. 294 00:16:09,676 --> 00:16:11,956 Speaker 2: So we just traveled around like that for six nights, 295 00:16:11,996 --> 00:16:16,516 Speaker 2: getting progressively weaker, and then finally on that last night, 296 00:16:16,796 --> 00:16:19,516 Speaker 2: things are pretty desperate and so we were left on 297 00:16:19,556 --> 00:16:24,916 Speaker 2: this night with just the young scared soldier Sharpov and 298 00:16:25,036 --> 00:16:27,716 Speaker 2: told to climb up this incredibly steep mountain. It was, 299 00:16:28,276 --> 00:16:30,516 Speaker 2: you know, true rock climbing, Like it was kind of 300 00:16:30,596 --> 00:16:32,596 Speaker 2: terrain that if you fell on it didn't seem like 301 00:16:32,676 --> 00:16:35,396 Speaker 2: you would stop. You would just continue falling until you 302 00:16:35,476 --> 00:16:37,556 Speaker 2: got you know, bouncing down the mountain until you got 303 00:16:37,556 --> 00:16:42,276 Speaker 2: to the bottom. And sherif Pov was really scared, we 304 00:16:42,276 --> 00:16:45,356 Speaker 2: were actually having to lead the way because we were climbers. 305 00:16:46,716 --> 00:16:48,636 Speaker 2: We would you know, grab his hand and pull him 306 00:16:48,756 --> 00:16:52,756 Speaker 2: up over rock steps. We would point out footholds for 307 00:16:52,876 --> 00:16:54,836 Speaker 2: him to step on. We would sort of spot him 308 00:16:54,836 --> 00:16:56,716 Speaker 2: in case he stumbled, we could catch him so he 309 00:16:56,796 --> 00:17:00,316 Speaker 2: didn't just fall down the mountain. And so in all 310 00:17:00,356 --> 00:17:03,516 Speaker 2: of our minds like if there was a time to escape, 311 00:17:03,556 --> 00:17:04,036 Speaker 2: this was it. 312 00:17:05,396 --> 00:17:08,596 Speaker 1: So I'm true, and it seems like the very natural 313 00:17:08,636 --> 00:17:11,796 Speaker 1: instinct to help others was kicking in for you. Right, 314 00:17:11,836 --> 00:17:15,676 Speaker 1: you're spotting this guy, you're leading the way, you're helping him. 315 00:17:15,956 --> 00:17:19,676 Speaker 1: Who were these competing feelings towards him and the situation 316 00:17:20,636 --> 00:17:24,076 Speaker 1: leading to kind of bizarre behaviors in you. It's so fascinating, 317 00:17:24,156 --> 00:17:27,436 Speaker 1: right that you can build this kind of camaraderie with 318 00:17:27,516 --> 00:17:30,236 Speaker 1: a person who might ultimately lead to your death if 319 00:17:30,236 --> 00:17:32,556 Speaker 1: you have that kind of empathy towards their circumstance and 320 00:17:32,596 --> 00:17:33,276 Speaker 1: their situation. 321 00:17:34,556 --> 00:17:37,396 Speaker 2: I mean, I think it felt different at different times. 322 00:17:37,436 --> 00:17:39,436 Speaker 2: Like at times I was like, we should outlast this, 323 00:17:39,516 --> 00:17:41,956 Speaker 2: We should be good human beings as long as we can. 324 00:17:42,236 --> 00:17:44,196 Speaker 2: In a way, of these rebels, I didn't see them 325 00:17:44,236 --> 00:17:47,716 Speaker 2: as super evil people, especially Cherpov who were with Like 326 00:17:47,756 --> 00:17:49,636 Speaker 2: he was just he was younger, or he was probably 327 00:17:49,676 --> 00:17:51,476 Speaker 2: about my age or maybe even younger. I think he 328 00:17:51,556 --> 00:17:53,716 Speaker 2: was eighteen years old at the time. He was a 329 00:17:53,796 --> 00:17:57,676 Speaker 2: hired mercenary. He was obviously super frightened himself, you know. 330 00:17:58,116 --> 00:17:59,796 Speaker 2: He like, who's to say if I didn't grow up 331 00:17:59,836 --> 00:18:01,916 Speaker 2: in a circumstance, I wouldn't have been right there with him. 332 00:18:02,356 --> 00:18:04,676 Speaker 2: So I thought it was sort of morally wrong to 333 00:18:04,716 --> 00:18:07,276 Speaker 2: try and take these guys' lives. But I think on 334 00:18:07,316 --> 00:18:10,356 Speaker 2: this last night, cloud started to roll in, I started 335 00:18:10,356 --> 00:18:12,916 Speaker 2: to rain a tiny bit, and all of us were like, 336 00:18:12,916 --> 00:18:15,276 Speaker 2: if we don't escape this scene pretty soon, we are 337 00:18:15,316 --> 00:18:18,276 Speaker 2: going to succumb to hypothermia. Yeah, So as we were 338 00:18:18,276 --> 00:18:20,796 Speaker 2: getting to the top of the mountain, I knew that 339 00:18:20,916 --> 00:18:26,036 Speaker 2: our opportunity to push him was going to be gone soon. 340 00:18:26,596 --> 00:18:31,236 Speaker 2: And Beth had been adamantly against killing somebody this whole time, 341 00:18:31,276 --> 00:18:34,196 Speaker 2: but it was getting pretty dire. So I looked over 342 00:18:34,236 --> 00:18:37,036 Speaker 2: her when we're at her, when we were maybe fifty 343 00:18:37,156 --> 00:18:38,956 Speaker 2: or one hundred feet below the top of this mountain, 344 00:18:38,956 --> 00:18:41,196 Speaker 2: and I was like, do you think I should? And 345 00:18:41,236 --> 00:18:43,676 Speaker 2: she didn't say anything, which to me that meant that 346 00:18:43,716 --> 00:18:45,716 Speaker 2: she thought she'd come around, like she thought that this 347 00:18:45,876 --> 00:18:49,716 Speaker 2: was probably the right thing to do. And so when 348 00:18:49,756 --> 00:18:53,356 Speaker 2: he saw the top of the mountain kind of close, 349 00:18:53,436 --> 00:18:55,836 Speaker 2: he got a little bit excited. He started to sort 350 00:18:55,876 --> 00:18:59,236 Speaker 2: of rush up ahead of all of us. He is 351 00:18:59,276 --> 00:19:05,036 Speaker 2: in Sharapov and I then started to sort of sneak 352 00:19:05,116 --> 00:19:09,516 Speaker 2: up behind him, and he was so focused on like 353 00:19:09,756 --> 00:19:11,716 Speaker 2: staying attached to the mountain, you know, like grabbing the 354 00:19:11,756 --> 00:19:13,596 Speaker 2: right hand holds and stuff, that he really didn't even 355 00:19:13,636 --> 00:19:15,756 Speaker 2: notice me. And I ran up behind him, and I 356 00:19:15,836 --> 00:19:19,276 Speaker 2: just grabbed his gun strap and just tugged backwards on it, 357 00:19:19,316 --> 00:19:21,596 Speaker 2: and he started to fly off the mountain side. He 358 00:19:21,636 --> 00:19:25,236 Speaker 2: fell about twenty feet hit this ledge that was below us, 359 00:19:25,276 --> 00:19:27,276 Speaker 2: bounced off of it like the sloping ledge, and then 360 00:19:27,876 --> 00:19:30,036 Speaker 2: out of sight, just in the blackness. 361 00:19:33,036 --> 00:19:35,556 Speaker 1: We'll be right back with a slight change of plans. 362 00:19:39,436 --> 00:19:42,396 Speaker 1: I'm maya Shunker, and this is a slight change of plans. 363 00:19:43,076 --> 00:19:45,796 Speaker 1: Tommy Caldwells made the bold decision to push one of 364 00:19:45,796 --> 00:19:49,436 Speaker 1: his captors off the cliff. Years later, a journalist working 365 00:19:49,476 --> 00:19:52,556 Speaker 1: on the story discovers that Cherapov did not actually die 366 00:19:52,596 --> 00:19:55,716 Speaker 1: from the fall, but at the time, Tommy assumes he's 367 00:19:55,796 --> 00:19:59,156 Speaker 1: killed Schherapov, and for Tommy, the reality of what he 368 00:19:59,276 --> 00:20:01,316 Speaker 1: just did comes crashing down on him. 369 00:20:01,796 --> 00:20:04,716 Speaker 2: It's just like this flood of emotion is going through me. 370 00:20:04,756 --> 00:20:07,836 Speaker 2: I like can't believe what I've just done. I remember 371 00:20:07,916 --> 00:20:13,036 Speaker 2: like closing my eye is incredibly tight, and like seeing 372 00:20:13,116 --> 00:20:15,356 Speaker 2: like weird starry visions. I mean, it was just like 373 00:20:16,996 --> 00:20:19,836 Speaker 2: it's almost hard to explain it. It was just like 374 00:20:20,036 --> 00:20:23,316 Speaker 2: emotionally overwhelming that I've never experienced. 375 00:20:23,356 --> 00:20:23,556 Speaker 1: You know. 376 00:20:24,316 --> 00:20:27,876 Speaker 2: Beth was really comforting me. I mean she'd like, I 377 00:20:27,956 --> 00:20:29,556 Speaker 2: like I said, I was deeply in love with this woman, 378 00:20:29,596 --> 00:20:31,876 Speaker 2: and she was and I didn't know she suddenly think 379 00:20:31,916 --> 00:20:33,836 Speaker 2: that I was like this evil person because we hadn't 380 00:20:33,876 --> 00:20:35,476 Speaker 2: really been able to talk it out what I was 381 00:20:35,516 --> 00:20:37,476 Speaker 2: about to do. So she was the one was like, 382 00:20:37,556 --> 00:20:41,236 Speaker 2: you're You're my hero. We're gonna be okay because of you, 383 00:20:41,316 --> 00:20:43,516 Speaker 2: and trying to say the right things to help me 384 00:20:43,636 --> 00:20:44,316 Speaker 2: in that moment. 385 00:20:45,276 --> 00:20:47,876 Speaker 1: The moment doesn't last long, though, with one of their 386 00:20:47,916 --> 00:20:50,156 Speaker 1: captors pushed off the mountain and the other one out 387 00:20:50,156 --> 00:20:52,596 Speaker 1: of sight. Tommy and his team know they need to 388 00:20:52,636 --> 00:20:54,676 Speaker 1: seize the moment and get out of there as quickly 389 00:20:54,716 --> 00:20:57,356 Speaker 1: as possible, so they run down the mountain and find 390 00:20:57,396 --> 00:21:00,756 Speaker 1: safety at a military outpost, and eventually they all make 391 00:21:00,796 --> 00:21:05,116 Speaker 1: it back to the US. Almost immediately, Tommy's dad notices 392 00:21:05,196 --> 00:21:06,396 Speaker 1: a change in him. 393 00:21:07,076 --> 00:21:10,436 Speaker 2: I mean, I felt like for a time I sort 394 00:21:10,436 --> 00:21:14,676 Speaker 2: of receded into a ball. I didn't talk to anybody 395 00:21:14,676 --> 00:21:19,116 Speaker 2: except for Beth about personal things. But Beth and a 396 00:21:19,156 --> 00:21:22,236 Speaker 2: few other close friends. I didn't talk to my parents 397 00:21:22,236 --> 00:21:24,076 Speaker 2: that much about it, So I think he probably had 398 00:21:24,076 --> 00:21:26,716 Speaker 2: that take more than most because he knew me a lot, 399 00:21:26,756 --> 00:21:30,876 Speaker 2: and then I just didn't want to discuss this with him. 400 00:21:30,916 --> 00:21:34,636 Speaker 1: What aspect of the experience made you most uncomfortable talking 401 00:21:34,636 --> 00:21:35,556 Speaker 1: about with your dad? 402 00:21:37,276 --> 00:21:39,796 Speaker 2: I think I was just I just didn't know how 403 00:21:39,876 --> 00:21:44,756 Speaker 2: to think about the experience, Like I didn't know for 404 00:21:44,796 --> 00:21:47,356 Speaker 2: a while whether whether I, you know, was kind of 405 00:21:47,356 --> 00:21:49,676 Speaker 2: an evil person for having done this thing, or whether 406 00:21:49,716 --> 00:21:51,596 Speaker 2: I was kind of a hero for saving us. I 407 00:21:51,676 --> 00:21:54,676 Speaker 2: was both, but I'd also learned. I think very few 408 00:21:54,676 --> 00:21:59,276 Speaker 2: people get to find out how they will react in 409 00:21:59,556 --> 00:22:02,716 Speaker 2: super intense experiences like that. Everybody sort of wonders, and 410 00:22:03,516 --> 00:22:06,716 Speaker 2: I now knew that when when things are really bad, 411 00:22:06,956 --> 00:22:08,636 Speaker 2: I was able to kind of like rise to the 412 00:22:08,676 --> 00:22:11,716 Speaker 2: occasion and do something that was really hard for me 413 00:22:12,396 --> 00:22:15,516 Speaker 2: and really fight for survival in this way that I 414 00:22:15,516 --> 00:22:17,876 Speaker 2: think I was a bit proud of at the time. 415 00:22:17,956 --> 00:22:21,596 Speaker 2: But I didn't want to seem proud. I didn't want 416 00:22:21,596 --> 00:22:23,356 Speaker 2: to feel I didn't want to feel proud in a 417 00:22:23,396 --> 00:22:26,076 Speaker 2: lot of ways, but I think kind of deep down 418 00:22:26,276 --> 00:22:28,436 Speaker 2: I was a little bit proud, like I felt empowered. 419 00:22:29,116 --> 00:22:34,636 Speaker 1: Interesting, So did the adversity you faced in Kyrgyzstan change 420 00:22:34,636 --> 00:22:38,276 Speaker 1: your understanding of yourself or actually just reinforce what you 421 00:22:38,316 --> 00:22:40,796 Speaker 1: had believed all along about what you were capable of. 422 00:22:41,756 --> 00:22:45,236 Speaker 2: I think it it reinforced more than changed, But it 423 00:22:45,276 --> 00:22:49,036 Speaker 2: also revealed a lot. It opened up a ton of curiosity, 424 00:22:49,116 --> 00:22:52,156 Speaker 2: like I wanted to learn more. I wanted to in 425 00:22:52,196 --> 00:22:55,796 Speaker 2: some ways get back to that place of being in 426 00:22:55,876 --> 00:23:00,756 Speaker 2: this incredibly meditative like flow state that I felt like 427 00:23:00,836 --> 00:23:03,996 Speaker 2: I had experienced it at times in Kyrgyzstan. I think 428 00:23:04,356 --> 00:23:07,076 Speaker 2: in some ways my climbing ever since then has been 429 00:23:07,436 --> 00:23:10,356 Speaker 2: an effort to almost get back there in a way 430 00:23:10,356 --> 00:23:15,476 Speaker 2: and learn more. Yeah, almost like an addiction potentially. I 431 00:23:15,516 --> 00:23:20,876 Speaker 2: think I saw Kyrgyzstan as this like fuel to put 432 00:23:20,956 --> 00:23:24,396 Speaker 2: me on this higher plane where I could like use 433 00:23:24,476 --> 00:23:29,996 Speaker 2: that adversity to fuel my life in a lot of 434 00:23:29,996 --> 00:23:33,956 Speaker 2: ways and and sort of my pursuit of of my craft, 435 00:23:33,996 --> 00:23:36,916 Speaker 2: which continues to be climbing to this day. 436 00:23:38,236 --> 00:23:40,476 Speaker 1: Yeah. Man, you are such a climber at heart. Like 437 00:23:40,516 --> 00:23:43,756 Speaker 1: the fact that you're you're describing Kurgason as being a 438 00:23:43,796 --> 00:23:46,876 Speaker 1: flow state in which you had like you know, deep 439 00:23:46,956 --> 00:23:51,756 Speaker 1: mental acuity, and you're that's as a lay person, right, 440 00:23:51,876 --> 00:23:56,436 Speaker 1: That is a truly astonishing way of interpreting those events. Yeah. 441 00:23:56,436 --> 00:23:59,316 Speaker 2: Well I didn't go there first. I probably win a 442 00:23:59,316 --> 00:24:00,716 Speaker 2: lot of places in that year. 443 00:24:00,796 --> 00:24:01,276 Speaker 1: Yeah. 444 00:24:01,396 --> 00:24:03,716 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's the place that I ended up finding 445 00:24:04,476 --> 00:24:06,556 Speaker 2: to be the one that suited me. But if you 446 00:24:06,556 --> 00:24:08,756 Speaker 2: think about it, like you know, I can, I can 447 00:24:08,796 --> 00:24:10,956 Speaker 2: equate it to situations as a child where I was 448 00:24:11,076 --> 00:24:13,436 Speaker 2: up on some big wall with my dad and you know, 449 00:24:13,476 --> 00:24:17,836 Speaker 2: surrounded by some incredible thunderstorm and things get really real, 450 00:24:17,836 --> 00:24:19,316 Speaker 2: and my dad would look at me and these kind 451 00:24:19,316 --> 00:24:21,156 Speaker 2: of moments with these wild eyes and be like, this 452 00:24:21,196 --> 00:24:23,676 Speaker 2: is what brings us to life. So that was built 453 00:24:23,676 --> 00:24:25,276 Speaker 2: into me from a really young age. 454 00:24:25,716 --> 00:24:28,556 Speaker 1: Interesting. Okay, yeah, I think my parents were like, why 455 00:24:28,556 --> 00:24:32,036 Speaker 1: don't we go inside? Now there's thunder you would prefer 456 00:24:32,116 --> 00:24:32,916 Speaker 1: not to die? 457 00:24:33,436 --> 00:24:33,796 Speaker 2: Okay? 458 00:24:33,836 --> 00:24:38,236 Speaker 1: Anyway, anyway, can you describe more? I think for a 459 00:24:38,236 --> 00:24:40,716 Speaker 1: lot of listeners we'll be curious what you mean by 460 00:24:41,796 --> 00:24:44,516 Speaker 1: this flow state that you experienced in Kyrgyzstan, Like, what, 461 00:24:44,916 --> 00:24:47,116 Speaker 1: what does it feel like? What were you what were 462 00:24:47,116 --> 00:24:50,156 Speaker 1: you trying to reach psychologically when you came back and 463 00:24:50,196 --> 00:24:51,156 Speaker 1: started climbing again. 464 00:24:52,996 --> 00:24:55,956 Speaker 2: To me, that flow state in its most pure form 465 00:24:56,196 --> 00:25:01,836 Speaker 2: is like this moment where it's almost like everything slows down. 466 00:25:02,356 --> 00:25:06,196 Speaker 2: You feel weightless, you feel like your vision is a cue, 467 00:25:06,236 --> 00:25:09,996 Speaker 2: you notice detail in this incredible way. It's like a 468 00:25:10,076 --> 00:25:16,836 Speaker 2: physiological change that is incredibly easy to notice when it happens. 469 00:25:16,916 --> 00:25:20,916 Speaker 2: You know, It's like in the moment where all odds 470 00:25:20,916 --> 00:25:25,236 Speaker 2: are against you, suddenly it's like the clarity comes and 471 00:25:25,316 --> 00:25:28,836 Speaker 2: it's completely surreal and completely magical. I feel like I 472 00:25:28,876 --> 00:25:31,276 Speaker 2: had experienced that in Kyrgyzstan, and so I was trying 473 00:25:31,276 --> 00:25:34,276 Speaker 2: to get back there in climbing. But I wasn't. I 474 00:25:34,276 --> 00:25:36,116 Speaker 2: wasn't finding that flow state in that way. So I 475 00:25:36,156 --> 00:25:38,236 Speaker 2: did start to shift some of my climbing to like 476 00:25:38,316 --> 00:25:42,316 Speaker 2: this mega endurance days where you're out, you know, sleep 477 00:25:42,356 --> 00:25:44,756 Speaker 2: deprived for you know, fifty hours in a row, and 478 00:25:45,116 --> 00:25:46,876 Speaker 2: a lot of times these climbs would take four or 479 00:25:46,916 --> 00:25:49,436 Speaker 2: five days, and I started to do them in one day, 480 00:25:49,556 --> 00:25:50,916 Speaker 2: like twenty four hour pushes. 481 00:25:51,996 --> 00:25:56,516 Speaker 1: Okay, I'm pausing only because if I were an alien 482 00:25:56,556 --> 00:25:59,876 Speaker 1: descending on this planet and I heard that there's this 483 00:25:59,916 --> 00:26:03,196 Speaker 1: guy named Tommy Caldwell who went through a harrowing experience 484 00:26:03,196 --> 00:26:07,356 Speaker 1: in Kyrgyzstan who's now trying to replicate aspects of that 485 00:26:07,516 --> 00:26:11,276 Speaker 1: trip on his own volition and normal life, I think 486 00:26:12,036 --> 00:26:14,956 Speaker 1: I think the alien would bat Andy. That's all. It's 487 00:26:15,116 --> 00:26:18,716 Speaker 1: It's why I admire climber so much. It's the relentless 488 00:26:18,756 --> 00:26:23,396 Speaker 1: focus and resolve. And again, I flirted as a musician 489 00:26:23,516 --> 00:26:29,036 Speaker 1: with flow right in my childhood, and I in my 490 00:26:29,116 --> 00:26:33,076 Speaker 1: own way, I crave that too. There's something about engaging 491 00:26:33,116 --> 00:26:34,876 Speaker 1: with art and I guess I see climbing as an 492 00:26:34,956 --> 00:26:37,196 Speaker 1: art form too that can put you in a certain 493 00:26:37,196 --> 00:26:39,996 Speaker 1: mental state that's really hard to you can't you can't 494 00:26:39,996 --> 00:26:42,196 Speaker 1: recruit it in daily life at will. Right, it's not. 495 00:26:42,516 --> 00:26:45,596 Speaker 1: It's one of these elusive things that happens when all 496 00:26:45,636 --> 00:26:48,036 Speaker 1: the stars align right, or at least that's how it's 497 00:26:48,036 --> 00:26:49,036 Speaker 1: been in my own experience. 498 00:26:49,876 --> 00:26:51,596 Speaker 2: Yeah, now I can tell you have like you have 499 00:26:51,636 --> 00:26:54,356 Speaker 2: the craving and the thirst for it, and yeah, I 500 00:26:54,436 --> 00:26:56,596 Speaker 2: felt like I need to pursue that a lot in 501 00:26:56,596 --> 00:26:59,356 Speaker 2: my life since then. But in some ways, I never 502 00:26:59,436 --> 00:27:01,676 Speaker 2: got back to that place that I was in Kyrgyzstan, 503 00:27:01,836 --> 00:27:04,916 Speaker 2: like that flow state that I experienced that really comes 504 00:27:05,556 --> 00:27:09,036 Speaker 2: from this that you can really only access when you 505 00:27:09,556 --> 00:27:11,676 Speaker 2: when your life really is on the line. Even though 506 00:27:11,676 --> 00:27:14,076 Speaker 2: I was pushing way harder than I was before, I wasn't. 507 00:27:14,636 --> 00:27:19,436 Speaker 2: I wasn't ever getting back to that place, to that 508 00:27:19,556 --> 00:27:20,516 Speaker 2: incredible flow state. 509 00:27:21,596 --> 00:27:24,516 Speaker 1: Tommy spent the next year after his return from Kyrgyzstan 510 00:27:24,876 --> 00:27:28,316 Speaker 1: trying to access that high, that flow state in his clients. 511 00:27:28,876 --> 00:27:31,876 Speaker 1: Whatever downtime he had, he spent with Beth in this 512 00:27:31,916 --> 00:27:35,756 Speaker 1: little fixer upper cabin they bought in the mountains of Colorado, and. 513 00:27:35,836 --> 00:27:37,836 Speaker 2: One day I was working on the house. I was 514 00:27:37,836 --> 00:27:39,476 Speaker 2: trying to use the tools and not knowing how to 515 00:27:39,556 --> 00:27:42,156 Speaker 2: use them properly. I ended up chopping off my index 516 00:27:42,236 --> 00:27:46,596 Speaker 2: finger on my left hand with a table saw. So 517 00:27:46,716 --> 00:27:49,156 Speaker 2: this is kind of like worst case scenario. 518 00:27:50,036 --> 00:27:52,196 Speaker 1: Can you describe the moment where you realize that your 519 00:27:52,196 --> 00:27:54,196 Speaker 1: index finger is no longer on your hand. 520 00:27:55,316 --> 00:27:58,596 Speaker 2: I felt this numbness and I looked down at my 521 00:27:58,676 --> 00:28:01,956 Speaker 2: left hand and saw that the finger was completely severed, 522 00:28:02,036 --> 00:28:04,196 Speaker 2: like I didn't know where the other part of it was. 523 00:28:04,876 --> 00:28:07,236 Speaker 2: So I think I immediately panicked. I yelled to Beth. 524 00:28:07,276 --> 00:28:08,956 Speaker 2: I was just like, oh, I just cut off my finger, 525 00:28:09,436 --> 00:28:13,756 Speaker 2: And she came over and we found it like laying 526 00:28:13,796 --> 00:28:16,716 Speaker 2: on the ground, ran into the house, put it on ice, 527 00:28:16,756 --> 00:28:17,876 Speaker 2: and drove to the hospital. 528 00:28:18,956 --> 00:28:20,836 Speaker 1: What is going through your head on the drive to 529 00:28:20,876 --> 00:28:21,916 Speaker 1: the hospital. 530 00:28:22,716 --> 00:28:25,276 Speaker 2: I mean I was. I was certainly panicking. I mean 531 00:28:25,476 --> 00:28:27,356 Speaker 2: all I could think about was climbing. Like I had 532 00:28:27,356 --> 00:28:29,996 Speaker 2: gotten to this place where I was, I was a 533 00:28:30,036 --> 00:28:32,836 Speaker 2: professional climber. I was living kind of my ultimate life 534 00:28:32,876 --> 00:28:35,036 Speaker 2: I had, but all this curiosity about where I could 535 00:28:35,076 --> 00:28:37,876 Speaker 2: take it. It was sort of my coping mechanism for 536 00:28:37,956 --> 00:28:40,716 Speaker 2: Kyrgyzstan in some ways, like this was the thing that 537 00:28:40,756 --> 00:28:43,636 Speaker 2: I could focus on that could both distract me and 538 00:28:43,756 --> 00:28:47,516 Speaker 2: empower me, and that was what was keeping me happy 539 00:28:47,556 --> 00:28:50,916 Speaker 2: and stable in life. And then suddenly maybe that is 540 00:28:50,956 --> 00:28:55,036 Speaker 2: gone too. So I was panicking. I mean, at first, 541 00:28:55,036 --> 00:28:57,076 Speaker 2: we're just we're just holding on to hope. I'd heard 542 00:28:57,116 --> 00:29:00,356 Speaker 2: stories about people chopping off fingers and then reattaching them 543 00:29:00,356 --> 00:29:03,756 Speaker 2: and everything being just fine. You know, like finger reattachment 544 00:29:03,836 --> 00:29:07,476 Speaker 2: surgery is usually relatively successful thing, at least it was 545 00:29:07,516 --> 00:29:11,436 Speaker 2: in my mind. The doc came into the room and he, 546 00:29:11,676 --> 00:29:13,796 Speaker 2: you know, sat Beth and me down and he's like, 547 00:29:13,996 --> 00:29:16,916 Speaker 2: we've done everything we can. Your finger is dead. We're 548 00:29:16,956 --> 00:29:19,636 Speaker 2: going to do one final surgery and remove it. And 549 00:29:19,996 --> 00:29:22,916 Speaker 2: you know, I'm sorry. And he was a climber. Actually 550 00:29:23,556 --> 00:29:25,836 Speaker 2: our doctor ended up being a climber as well, and 551 00:29:25,876 --> 00:29:28,196 Speaker 2: he and so he along with that, he said that 552 00:29:29,036 --> 00:29:31,036 Speaker 2: he told us that he's like, you should start thinking 553 00:29:31,036 --> 00:29:32,676 Speaker 2: about what else you want to do in life, because 554 00:29:32,716 --> 00:29:34,196 Speaker 2: you're not going to you're not going to be able 555 00:29:34,196 --> 00:29:36,236 Speaker 2: to like be a professional climber anymore. 556 00:29:37,116 --> 00:29:39,836 Speaker 1: And when you first heard that, do you agree with him? 557 00:29:39,956 --> 00:29:41,436 Speaker 1: I mean, did you believe that was going to be 558 00:29:41,436 --> 00:29:41,836 Speaker 1: the case. 559 00:29:42,116 --> 00:29:43,876 Speaker 2: Well, I mean I think I heard that, and I 560 00:29:43,956 --> 00:29:48,476 Speaker 2: was just like incredibly sad and trying to absorb that. 561 00:29:48,796 --> 00:29:50,836 Speaker 2: I mean, once again, I feel like this has been 562 00:29:50,876 --> 00:29:52,476 Speaker 2: a theme in my life. I have these things that 563 00:29:52,556 --> 00:29:54,236 Speaker 2: are said or things that happened to me that are 564 00:29:54,276 --> 00:29:57,076 Speaker 2: almost like too grand for me to comprehend in the moment, 565 00:29:57,156 --> 00:29:59,076 Speaker 2: and it takes a long time to really figure it out. 566 00:29:59,636 --> 00:30:02,956 Speaker 2: But he left the room and then Beth looked over 567 00:30:03,076 --> 00:30:05,076 Speaker 2: at me and she's like, fuck that guy, he has 568 00:30:05,076 --> 00:30:07,476 Speaker 2: an idea, what well you're capable of it? That was 569 00:30:07,516 --> 00:30:09,316 Speaker 2: like the perfect thing to say, you know. I think 570 00:30:09,316 --> 00:30:11,716 Speaker 2: I came out of that hospital with like kind of 571 00:30:11,756 --> 00:30:15,996 Speaker 2: this conviction that was driven partially from like this idea 572 00:30:16,036 --> 00:30:17,556 Speaker 2: that I might be able to overc him, but also 573 00:30:17,636 --> 00:30:19,476 Speaker 2: driven a lot by the fear that I've that I 574 00:30:19,636 --> 00:30:21,876 Speaker 2: just lost this thing that was incredibly important to me, 575 00:30:22,236 --> 00:30:23,956 Speaker 2: and I wanted to do everything I could, like I 576 00:30:24,036 --> 00:30:25,996 Speaker 2: might as well do everything I can at that point 577 00:30:26,036 --> 00:30:28,116 Speaker 2: to try and prove him wrong. 578 00:30:28,596 --> 00:30:32,076 Speaker 1: Do you think you're experiencing Kyrgyzstan increased your resolve to 579 00:30:32,076 --> 00:30:34,196 Speaker 1: give climbing another go, Like, do you think you would 580 00:30:34,196 --> 00:30:36,716 Speaker 1: have actually tried if that experience hadn't happened and you 581 00:30:36,756 --> 00:30:38,236 Speaker 1: hadn't seen your limits. 582 00:30:40,196 --> 00:30:42,476 Speaker 2: I think what it did for me is that it 583 00:30:42,676 --> 00:30:47,036 Speaker 2: made me not fear failure in a weird way, Like 584 00:30:47,636 --> 00:30:50,516 Speaker 2: I'd had to confront the worst things that I can 585 00:30:50,596 --> 00:30:53,116 Speaker 2: imagine in my life in a lot of ways, and 586 00:30:53,156 --> 00:30:55,116 Speaker 2: in some ways it like wasn't so bad, you know. 587 00:30:55,196 --> 00:30:57,516 Speaker 2: I mean it was really bad in some ways, but 588 00:30:57,596 --> 00:30:59,836 Speaker 2: in other ways, I'm like, I lived through it. I 589 00:30:59,876 --> 00:31:04,156 Speaker 2: can find strength through this. And that drive, that drive 590 00:31:04,196 --> 00:31:08,316 Speaker 2: that you can feel only in those moments is is 591 00:31:08,356 --> 00:31:10,836 Speaker 2: like this moment that you have to seize, you know. 592 00:31:10,876 --> 00:31:13,396 Speaker 2: It's like that only lasts for so long, and so 593 00:31:13,516 --> 00:31:16,036 Speaker 2: you have to capture it, absorb it and let it, 594 00:31:16,356 --> 00:31:18,756 Speaker 2: let it like push you forward. 595 00:31:19,156 --> 00:31:21,036 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, a big change can do that. 596 00:31:21,316 --> 00:31:21,516 Speaker 2: Wow. 597 00:31:23,516 --> 00:31:26,036 Speaker 1: What were those early first few climbing days? 598 00:31:26,116 --> 00:31:29,036 Speaker 2: Like, so I went straight to the climbing gym, I 599 00:31:29,076 --> 00:31:30,716 Speaker 2: think from the hospital, Like I don't only think we 600 00:31:30,756 --> 00:31:32,876 Speaker 2: went home inane. 601 00:31:34,956 --> 00:31:36,996 Speaker 1: I love that though you're so passionate about it, you 602 00:31:36,996 --> 00:31:38,316 Speaker 1: couldn't wait to get back on. 603 00:31:38,796 --> 00:31:40,556 Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean I'd been laying in a hospital bed 604 00:31:40,596 --> 00:31:43,716 Speaker 2: for two weeks, so I was pretty excited to move 605 00:31:43,756 --> 00:31:45,436 Speaker 2: and then the doctor had told me that since the 606 00:31:45,436 --> 00:31:47,556 Speaker 2: figure was gone, I couldn't really do any more harm, 607 00:31:47,596 --> 00:31:49,956 Speaker 2: and so I was really curious to see how my 608 00:31:50,276 --> 00:31:53,476 Speaker 2: you know, newly remodeled hand was going to work. And 609 00:31:54,276 --> 00:31:56,716 Speaker 2: we went straight to the gym and it was. It 610 00:31:56,796 --> 00:31:59,196 Speaker 2: was really hard at first, and I was like, okay, 611 00:31:59,236 --> 00:32:01,156 Speaker 2: this is a starting point. I can I can take 612 00:32:01,236 --> 00:32:05,676 Speaker 2: this and improve on it. And then, you know, I 613 00:32:05,716 --> 00:32:08,636 Speaker 2: went back to the climbing gym at first, like basically 614 00:32:08,716 --> 00:32:11,116 Speaker 2: every day, and each day I would feel a little 615 00:32:11,156 --> 00:32:12,876 Speaker 2: bit stronger and a little bit stronger, and before I 616 00:32:12,956 --> 00:32:15,556 Speaker 2: knew it, I was sort of exceeding my own expectations 617 00:32:15,556 --> 00:32:18,636 Speaker 2: and that started this pretty incredible flywheel where I was like, Wow, 618 00:32:18,676 --> 00:32:21,876 Speaker 2: this is actually working. My strength is coming back. And 619 00:32:21,956 --> 00:32:24,316 Speaker 2: within a couple of months, I actually was back at 620 00:32:24,316 --> 00:32:27,116 Speaker 2: the level of climbing that I had been before I 621 00:32:27,196 --> 00:32:29,516 Speaker 2: chopped off my finger. Like I went back to other 622 00:32:29,556 --> 00:32:32,396 Speaker 2: climbs that I had had as climbing project, and I 623 00:32:32,436 --> 00:32:34,996 Speaker 2: was able to do them again, and I was like, Wow, 624 00:32:35,036 --> 00:32:37,116 Speaker 2: this is working. I can't believe I'm overcoming. This is 625 00:32:37,196 --> 00:32:40,196 Speaker 2: so exciting. And then I didn't stop there. I just 626 00:32:40,356 --> 00:32:44,356 Speaker 2: kept on getting better and better and you know, in 627 00:32:44,396 --> 00:32:47,996 Speaker 2: some ways it was like a super magical time for me. 628 00:32:48,836 --> 00:32:51,996 Speaker 1: There's no manual for how to climb with nine fingers, 629 00:32:51,996 --> 00:32:58,476 Speaker 1: so you're also having to relearn key form elements of climbing, right, 630 00:32:59,116 --> 00:33:00,916 Speaker 1: how does that happen? Like do you have to fully 631 00:33:00,916 --> 00:33:06,036 Speaker 1: adjust your strategy like the way that you climb a wall? 632 00:33:06,236 --> 00:33:09,276 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's experimental. Climbing is always experiment so 633 00:33:09,356 --> 00:33:12,316 Speaker 2: like you're always playing with how to do moves differently. 634 00:33:12,396 --> 00:33:15,596 Speaker 2: And so I was just doing that but without a finger, 635 00:33:15,716 --> 00:33:18,716 Speaker 2: you know, I sort of cherished that experimenting. Like my 636 00:33:18,836 --> 00:33:22,316 Speaker 2: dad actually welded me up this specific finger strength like 637 00:33:22,436 --> 00:33:25,436 Speaker 2: weightlifting machine just for your fingers though, and so I 638 00:33:25,476 --> 00:33:27,876 Speaker 2: started using that a bunch and I got more and 639 00:33:28,276 --> 00:33:30,916 Speaker 2: more scientific about building finger strength. 640 00:33:31,796 --> 00:33:35,236 Speaker 1: Okay, so you decide to climb one of the most 641 00:33:35,316 --> 00:33:39,356 Speaker 1: impossible rock faces I think in the world, is that right? 642 00:33:39,396 --> 00:33:42,996 Speaker 1: I mean, the don Wall. Most people deemed it impossible. 643 00:33:44,036 --> 00:33:46,396 Speaker 1: And I want to know what was your motivation for that? 644 00:33:46,436 --> 00:33:47,756 Speaker 1: What were you hoping to achieve? 645 00:33:48,836 --> 00:33:51,076 Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean, so this was after my you know, 646 00:33:51,116 --> 00:33:54,196 Speaker 2: after I came back from chopping off my finger. You know, 647 00:33:54,236 --> 00:33:56,156 Speaker 2: that was sort of when I kept just doing harder 648 00:33:56,196 --> 00:33:59,036 Speaker 2: and harder roots, and I became the person that knew 649 00:33:59,076 --> 00:34:02,356 Speaker 2: more about big wall free climbing on l Capaitten than 650 00:34:02,356 --> 00:34:04,076 Speaker 2: any You know, I'd spent more time up there, I'd 651 00:34:04,076 --> 00:34:09,076 Speaker 2: done more roots than anybody. The Don Wall it is 652 00:34:09,516 --> 00:34:12,116 Speaker 2: by far the hardest big wall free climb in the 653 00:34:12,116 --> 00:34:15,676 Speaker 2: world to anybody except for me at the time, just 654 00:34:15,796 --> 00:34:17,516 Speaker 2: looked like a pane of glass. Like you look up 655 00:34:17,556 --> 00:34:19,196 Speaker 2: at the wall and you're like, there's nothing to hold 656 00:34:19,236 --> 00:34:21,236 Speaker 2: on to. There's no way you could ever climb this thing. 657 00:34:22,196 --> 00:34:23,636 Speaker 2: Like I said, I had spent so much time up 658 00:34:23,636 --> 00:34:25,956 Speaker 2: there that I knew that sometimes these little edges formed 659 00:34:25,996 --> 00:34:29,636 Speaker 2: on these faces that looked totally blank from below. But 660 00:34:29,716 --> 00:34:31,556 Speaker 2: this is just it was such a big scale that 661 00:34:31,636 --> 00:34:36,436 Speaker 2: piecing it together was this incredible puzzle, which ended up 662 00:34:36,436 --> 00:34:39,316 Speaker 2: taking me a year just to figure out the root, 663 00:34:39,476 --> 00:34:43,596 Speaker 2: and then another like seven years to build the strength 664 00:34:43,636 --> 00:34:47,036 Speaker 2: and everything to pull it together. I guess I saw 665 00:34:47,636 --> 00:34:50,116 Speaker 2: pushing that venue to be the one place in the 666 00:34:50,156 --> 00:34:53,956 Speaker 2: world where I could really explore something that nobody else had. 667 00:34:54,516 --> 00:34:58,476 Speaker 1: At any point, did you experience the intensity of the 668 00:34:58,596 --> 00:35:02,036 Speaker 1: Kyrgyzstan flow state when you were climbing the Dawn Wall. 669 00:35:02,476 --> 00:35:04,636 Speaker 2: I feel like I did actually on the final on 670 00:35:04,716 --> 00:35:09,276 Speaker 2: the final go, like when we successfully climbed the thing. 671 00:35:09,316 --> 00:35:11,036 Speaker 2: So me and my partner Kevin Jorgan said, you know, 672 00:35:11,076 --> 00:35:15,116 Speaker 2: we spent seven years. We would fix ropes to the wall, 673 00:35:15,156 --> 00:35:16,836 Speaker 2: and we would descend up and down the ropes, and 674 00:35:16,876 --> 00:35:19,116 Speaker 2: we would try all the different sections and we would 675 00:35:19,196 --> 00:35:21,996 Speaker 2: learn it all. And then when we finally went up 676 00:35:22,396 --> 00:35:25,116 Speaker 2: and successfully climbed the route, I think when I climbed 677 00:35:25,156 --> 00:35:28,396 Speaker 2: those pitches, it was this moment of incredible flow. Like 678 00:35:28,396 --> 00:35:32,036 Speaker 2: I said, there was so much pressure and anxiety and 679 00:35:32,116 --> 00:35:36,836 Speaker 2: excitement wrapped up in the seven years of preparing for 680 00:35:36,876 --> 00:35:41,596 Speaker 2: this that when it happened it felt magical, like that 681 00:35:41,716 --> 00:35:45,596 Speaker 2: clarity emerged. I felt weightless. There was this incredible flow. 682 00:35:45,676 --> 00:35:47,676 Speaker 2: It was yeah, very magical. 683 00:36:09,796 --> 00:36:12,636 Speaker 1: Hey, thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed my 684 00:36:12,676 --> 00:36:16,076 Speaker 1: conversation with Tommy Caldwell, you might enjoy our episode with 685 00:36:16,116 --> 00:36:19,516 Speaker 1: doctor Richard Harris. He's one of the divers who saved 686 00:36:19,556 --> 00:36:21,996 Speaker 1: a boy's soccer team that was trapped deep inside a 687 00:36:22,036 --> 00:36:25,916 Speaker 1: cave in Thailand. The episode is called the Thai Cave Rescue, 688 00:36:26,236 --> 00:36:37,516 Speaker 1: and we'll link to it in the show notes. A 689 00:36:37,556 --> 00:36:40,676 Speaker 1: slight change of Plans is created and executive produce by 690 00:36:40,716 --> 00:36:44,516 Speaker 1: me Maya Schunker. Big thanks to everyone at Pushkin Industries, 691 00:36:44,956 --> 00:36:49,156 Speaker 1: including our producer Mola Board, associate producers David Jaw and 692 00:36:49,236 --> 00:36:54,116 Speaker 1: Julia Goodman, executive producers Mea Lavelle and Justin Lange, senior 693 00:36:54,236 --> 00:36:57,996 Speaker 1: editor Jen Guera, and sound design and mixed engineers Ben 694 00:36:58,076 --> 00:37:02,396 Speaker 1: Holliday and Jason Gambrell. Thanks also to Luis Gara who 695 00:37:02,396 --> 00:37:04,956 Speaker 1: wrote our theme song, and Ginger Smith who helped arrange 696 00:37:04,996 --> 00:37:09,596 Speaker 1: the vocals, incidental music from Epidemic Sound, and of course 697 00:37:09,796 --> 00:37:13,236 Speaker 1: a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow 698 00:37:13,276 --> 00:37:16,636 Speaker 1: a slight change of plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker. 699 00:37:25,556 --> 00:37:27,156 Speaker 1: I have to say I'm a little bit I was 700 00:37:27,156 --> 00:37:30,116 Speaker 1: a little bit sheepish about doing this interview because I 701 00:37:30,156 --> 00:37:32,436 Speaker 1: was like a budding concert violinist as a kid, and 702 00:37:32,476 --> 00:37:35,316 Speaker 1: then when I was fifteen, I had a hand injury 703 00:37:35,316 --> 00:37:38,916 Speaker 1: in which I tore tendons in my hand and doctors 704 00:37:38,916 --> 00:37:40,756 Speaker 1: told me that I could never play again. So my 705 00:37:40,796 --> 00:37:42,916 Speaker 1: life had to take a totally different route from that 706 00:37:42,916 --> 00:37:45,716 Speaker 1: point forward. But I feel like you would have been 707 00:37:45,716 --> 00:37:48,036 Speaker 1: the dude to play the violin with like four fingers 708 00:37:48,356 --> 00:37:51,796 Speaker 1: and like crush it, so I just feel like, Yeah, 709 00:37:51,876 --> 00:37:53,916 Speaker 1: didn't really step up. I was like, oh, the doctor 710 00:37:53,916 --> 00:37:57,796 Speaker 1: said I can't play. I guess I won't play. But anyway, 711 00:37:58,036 --> 00:37:59,316 Speaker 1: some of us are than others. 712 00:37:59,316 --> 00:38:03,196 Speaker 2: I'm glad we could start the interview by me one