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Speaker 1: Hey guys, welcome to I've never said this before with

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Speaker 1: me Tommy di Dario. Today's guest is actress and New

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Speaker 1: York Times best selling author Hillary Burton Morgan. Hillary is

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Speaker 1: best known for playing Peyton Sawyer on One Tree Hill

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Speaker 1: and Sarah Ellis in White Collar. She's also a former

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Speaker 1: VJ of MTV's Total Request Live aka TRL. Yes, my

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Speaker 1: millennials listening, I know you know TRL very well. But

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Speaker 1: something that Hillary is most proud of, and rightfully so,

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Speaker 1: because ah it is absolutely fantastic. It's her second book,

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Speaker 1: called Grimoire Girl, a Memoir of Magic and Mischief. This

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Speaker 1: is a book for anyone who wants to create a

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Speaker 1: more meaningful existence. Now. Since childhood, Hillary has felt a

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Speaker 1: calling to record and keep and catalog life in all

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Speaker 1: all of its strange wonder Yeah, it was a whimsical

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Speaker 1: habit with really no clear goal at the time. But

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Speaker 1: then she became a mother and the importance of all

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Speaker 1: of that collecting, well, it just snapped into focus. She

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Speaker 1: realized that over all of those years she was crafting

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Speaker 1: a grimoire. Now, this is Hillary's most intimate book yet,

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Speaker 1: where she shows us how we too can look at

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Speaker 1: the elements of our lives and collect the pieces into

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Speaker 1: a tangible collection of a lifetime of learning. How beautiful

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Speaker 1: is that? There is so much heart and soul in

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Speaker 1: this book, and of course so much magic. Oh I

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Speaker 1: could have talked to Hillary for five more hours. You

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Speaker 1: know when you meet someone and you just connect right,

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Speaker 1: almost as though you've known each other forever. Well, that's

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Speaker 1: how this felt. So get a warm beverage, cozy up

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Speaker 1: with the blanket, and let's see if today we can

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Speaker 1: get Hillary to say something that she's never said before. Hill,

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Speaker 1: How are you my friend?

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Speaker 2: I mean, I'm trying to behave myself, which is always

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Speaker 2: an adventure.

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Speaker 1: Well do we have to behave ourselves? You know?

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Speaker 2: It's back to school, which always makes me feel kind

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Speaker 2: of frisky because it's like, I don't know, it's a

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Speaker 2: new beginning. It's like who am I going to be

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Speaker 2: this year? I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Oh, I like that a new beginning. Are you happy

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Speaker 1: it's back to school? Does mama need a little break?

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Speaker 2: Well? No, But I was that kid that like loved

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Speaker 2: back to school like I loved it, And I think

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Speaker 2: that the bio rhythm of my life has always maintained

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Speaker 2: back to school energy because it was what we would

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Speaker 2: go back to work on on the TV shows I

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Speaker 2: worked on, and you'd film through like the school year

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Speaker 2: and then have summers off. So as an adult, I

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Speaker 2: still feel like I'm in tenth grade and I'm just like,

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Speaker 2: all right, here, we go to school shopping, get some

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Speaker 2: cool cardigans.

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Speaker 1: Is anything better than that? I was the geek who's like, Mom,

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Speaker 1: take me to Staples and let's get fun binders.

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Speaker 2: Like putting together binders with all the dividers and that

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Speaker 2: shittle pencil bags. I live for it.

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Speaker 1: You live for it. This I'm telling you. So when

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Speaker 1: I read your book, which we're about to get into,

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Speaker 1: I finished it and I said to my husband, I

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Speaker 1: feel like Hillary and I are like solely connected because

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Speaker 1: we view life in so many of the same ways.

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Speaker 1: And I have so many I'm going to call them

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Speaker 1: little quirks about life that we're going to talk about.

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Speaker 1: And I just I love how you view, you know,

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Speaker 1: everyday life. I think it's a magical thing. So ugh

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Speaker 1: your book, Grimore Girl, creating an Inheritance of Magic and Mischief.

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Speaker 1: You saw my tweet about it, and I.

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Speaker 2: Meant that was so nice, thank you well.

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Speaker 1: I meant every word it really brought me back to

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Speaker 1: a place of my youth and childhood and things that

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Speaker 1: I haven't thought about in quite some time, or smells

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Speaker 1: I haven't smelled in some time. I mean, it was

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Speaker 1: such a visual and reactive book for me, and it

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Speaker 1: reminds you to appreciate the simple things on life. There

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Speaker 1: so many beautiful themes in this book, and it really

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Speaker 1: grounded me after reading it, and it was it was

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Speaker 1: a transformative experience. And I'm not kidding it was it wasn't.

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Speaker 1: I know. That sounds so maybe silly for people listening

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Speaker 1: thinking like, oh, how can a book be so that transformative?

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Speaker 1: But listen to this interview and you will understand. So

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Speaker 1: what is a grim war Let's kick off by talking

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Speaker 1: about that, and what is this book about?

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Speaker 2: I mean, so, a grimoire is a book of knowledge

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Speaker 2: that was historically kept, usually by women who would put

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Speaker 2: their recipes in there, any plant knowledge they had, any

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Speaker 2: kind of religious knowledge that they wanted to accumulate. It

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Speaker 2: was really a place to keep the tidbits of information

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Speaker 2: that would keep you alive. And as we know, through

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Speaker 2: some of our darker history, a lot of women were

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Speaker 2: persecuted for keeping things like this because it was indicative

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Speaker 2: of witchcraft. You know, women who retained knowledge were vilified

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Speaker 2: in a lot of situations. And so to keep a

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Speaker 2: grimoire today and to be kind of out in the

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Speaker 2: open about it is a bit of a rebellion and

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Speaker 2: a testament to never going backwards to those dark ages.

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Speaker 2: And for me, I didn't even realize that I was

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Speaker 2: keeping grimoires my entire life. I started journaling as a

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Speaker 2: child just because it's like an activity they make you

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Speaker 2: do in second grade, right where you're like my favorite

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Speaker 2: color is And I found probably the first grimoire I

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Speaker 2: ever ever worked on in first grade, and it was

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Speaker 2: just a book of things that I like, And in it,

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Speaker 2: I wrote that my favorite color was black, that I

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Speaker 2: loved the doors, and that I loved witches in October.

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Speaker 2: And it was startling for me to see that as

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Speaker 2: an adult because I was like, yeah, that all holds up.

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Speaker 2: I have not changed since I was six years old. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: this book was really just about encouraging other people to

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Speaker 2: speak their truths and record their truths so that they

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Speaker 2: can celebrate their own evolution.

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Speaker 1: Wow, and you certainly do that throughout this book. I

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Speaker 1: also love how you say the word I'm so Jersey Italian.

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Speaker 1: I'm like Grimoire, like, yeah, but you're so elegant. And

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Speaker 1: how you say it, no, baby, we say it. It's

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Speaker 1: way prettier than how I say it. You have so

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Speaker 1: many quotes in this book that I love. I wrote

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Speaker 1: a few down and right in the beginning you say

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Speaker 1: that this is a book about living so hard and

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Speaker 1: with so much intention that your people see the shooting

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Speaker 1: star in you let's burn bright.

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Speaker 2: Oh thanks, Yeah, I mean that was specifically in regard

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Speaker 2: to uh. I saw shooting stars for the first time

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Speaker 2: ever in my life and then lost a couple people

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Speaker 2: rapidly back to back, and and you know, there's a

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Speaker 2: lot of talk about how we are all made of stardust,

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Speaker 2: about like what makes up a human body and is

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Speaker 2: it cosmic and is it the product of stars? And

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Speaker 2: I like this idea that energy is everlasting. I like

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Speaker 2: this idea that matter is ever evolving. And so the

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Speaker 2: marriage of science and mythology and just sensitivity, just like

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Speaker 2: human emotion. I think factoring that in makes all the

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Speaker 2: other disciplines much more palatable and enjoyable.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I couldn't agree more. And I think that this

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Speaker 1: is a book that's very much about creating a meaningful existence,

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Speaker 1: and that's a lesson that I think is often lost

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Speaker 1: along the way because we get so wrapped up in

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Speaker 1: everyday things and sometimes admittedly material things, and you know,

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Speaker 1: we lose that focus. And I think that you bringing

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Speaker 1: that message to the forefront is so important.

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Speaker 2: Well thanks. I mean, look, I think working at TRL

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Speaker 2: was probably a very formative experience for me because as

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Speaker 2: a young person, as a teenager, I got to see

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Speaker 2: every single person who is at the top of their game,

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Speaker 2: right whether it was athletes or musicians or actors or

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Speaker 2: olympians like whatever, they all came through that funnel. And

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Speaker 2: when the cameras are not rolling, you get a much

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Speaker 2: better sense of what's real and seeing like behind great Oz,

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Speaker 2: you know, I got to see the man behind the curtain,

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Speaker 2: and the idea that any accomplishment was going to make

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Speaker 2: you feel fulfilled was immediately dashed. You know, my childhood

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Speaker 2: hopes were destroyed on the rocks of TRL, because I

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Speaker 2: knew that happiness and fulfillment really had to come from

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Speaker 2: something different, that success was not going to be the

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Speaker 2: be all, end all.

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Speaker 1: And this is such a size tangent, but I work

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Speaker 1: on Extra the entertainment news show, and I interview a

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Speaker 1: lot of people like you did that TRL, and I

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Speaker 1: see the same theme and it makes you step back

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Speaker 1: and think, wow, like I love what I do, but

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Speaker 1: I can't let that solely define me. There has to

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Speaker 1: be other things that fuel me and spark me and

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Speaker 1: interest me and excite me. And I'm all about the connection,

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Speaker 1: real connection, and I gather you very much are too.

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Speaker 2: The other thing is that it becomes kind of humiliating

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Speaker 2: that the thing you place so much importance on, you know,

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Speaker 2: like TRL, which was the biggest show in the world

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Speaker 2: for a minute there. My son's friends have no idea

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Speaker 2: what that is. They have no idea what MTV is.

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Speaker 2: They've never heard the term VJ before. And so these

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Speaker 2: things that we build our identities on are ephemeral. They're

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Speaker 2: not forever. And so finding the things in yourself that

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Speaker 2: will go on, the mischief in you, that's something you

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Speaker 2: can retain as like one hundred year old person sitting

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Speaker 2: in a rocking chair. When you keep your mischief, you

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Speaker 2: keep your identity.

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Speaker 1: Yes, oh my god, say that again.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, when you keep your mischief, you keep your identity.

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Speaker 2: To hold on to that.

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Speaker 1: I love that so much. All right, so let's get

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Speaker 1: back to creating a grim ware. How do we go

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Speaker 1: about that? For those listening who said, all right, I

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Speaker 1: want to start getting my feet wet with this, what

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Speaker 1: do we do?

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Speaker 2: Okay? So you can start off really, really small. You

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Speaker 2: can start off with a spiral notebook if that's what

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Speaker 2: you have at your disposal. You can grab steal some

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Speaker 2: printer paper from work, you know, keep it really simple.

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Speaker 2: Try to write down a couple interesting tidbits that happen

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Speaker 2: each day, whether it's something funny or something totally weird.

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Speaker 2: And then as you read other books, as you hear songs,

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Speaker 2: as you experience poetry, or experience any kind of beauty

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Speaker 2: in the world, record those things, because we all know

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Speaker 2: inevitably in this life cycle we will go through lows.

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Speaker 2: And when you have this little nostalgic tool with you,

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Speaker 2: this little grimoire, you're able to revisit the highs in

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Speaker 2: the midst of the dark lows, and it becomes a

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Speaker 2: really important tool just for your headspace. You know, we

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Speaker 2: all did it during the pandemic we were locked in.

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Speaker 2: There was a lot of depression, there was a lot

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Speaker 2: of isolation, and people resorted to going back through old

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Speaker 2: photo albums or watching the old TV shows that were

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Speaker 2: comfort TV shows, and so providing yourself with a tool

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Speaker 2: like that's really important. And then if you want to

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Speaker 2: get fancy an artsy fartsy, I like using sketch books

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Speaker 2: because they don't have any lines and you can just

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Speaker 2: doodle all around the things that you're writing. If you

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Speaker 2: don't know the name of a plant that you see

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Speaker 2: that you like, just draw a picture of it and

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Speaker 2: you can figure it out later. The lack of lines

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Speaker 2: gives you more freedom to explore and express yourself. And

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Speaker 2: then as you gradually grow as a Grimoire keeper, you

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Speaker 2: can get the leather bound notebooks. Oh honey, listen, if

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Speaker 2: you want to go to a renaissance fair, that's happening

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Speaker 2: right now in New York. It's in Duxedo. They have

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Speaker 2: boos and boots and boost full of bejeweled grimoire. You know,

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Speaker 2: depending on how much you want to commit to it,

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Speaker 2: there are resources for every commitment level.

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Speaker 1: And you say use pen not pencil.

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Speaker 2: Right totally. Something I found as a teenage Grimore keeper

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Speaker 2: is that I used to go back and erase stuff

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Speaker 2: because you know, you'd change your mind about who you

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Speaker 2: had to crush on, or you would change your mind

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Speaker 2: about a feeling and then go back two years later

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Speaker 2: and try to rewrite history. And I think it's very

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Speaker 2: important to honor where you are at any given time

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Speaker 2: and keep it. And you can certainly grow out of

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Speaker 2: those faces, but keep it as a memory, because your

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Speaker 2: journey is something you should be proud of, not something

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Speaker 2: that you should be trying to erase.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and we have to celebrate all those moments of

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Speaker 1: our lives, even.

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Speaker 2: If it weren't the best, wacky ones. Yeah, we've all

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Speaker 2: had them, the tacky ones.

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Speaker 1: Ooh. I mean there are things I wish I could erase,

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Speaker 1: but they're there, They're there forever. Yes, they are well.

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Speaker 1: And I love that you celebrate all of the moments

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Speaker 1: to good in the bad and something else you celebrate

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Speaker 1: which I so connected with. And I just think this

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Speaker 1: is a really fun thing to bring up, is this

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Speaker 1: idea of creating your own personal holidays, And I love

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Speaker 1: that I've been doing that my whole life. Yesterday, my

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Speaker 1: husband and I we celebrated our eight year proposal versary.

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Speaker 1: All celebrate to well. So we got engaged in Paris

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Speaker 1: eight years ago and yesterday. We ended up going for

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Speaker 1: like a nice dinner with some friends and making it

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Speaker 1: a fun little thing. But during the pandemic, when we

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Speaker 1: were all under lockdown, I turned our little dining area

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Speaker 1: into a Parisian cafe. Ah See, you have to do

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Speaker 1: things like that to celebrate. So why do you love

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Speaker 1: celebrating these little personal holidays And what's one for you

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Speaker 1: that you love to celebrate.

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Speaker 2: We're your instruction followers right from the time that we're

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Speaker 2: in elementary school. You go into school and you're there

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Speaker 2: when the bell rings, and you say the pledge of allegiance,

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Speaker 2: and you do your homework, and you follow all the rules,

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Speaker 2: and you celebrate the holidays that you're told to celebrate,

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Speaker 2: and you celebrate them how you are told to celebrate.

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Speaker 2: You know, you make the little pine own turkey for Thanksgiving,

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Speaker 2: and you know you do the stocking stuffers for Christmas.

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Speaker 2: Inventing your own holiday gives you ownership of the things

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Speaker 2: that bring you joy personally, and it allows you to

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Speaker 2: really make a decision about what is celebratory in your life.

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Speaker 2: So I feel like a lot of people have gotten

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Speaker 2: frustrated with Christmas and the holidays in the winter because

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Speaker 2: they've become so like financially oriented. You're buying presents, you're

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Speaker 2: spending money on decorations, you're having to outdo travel every year.

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Speaker 2: A celebration that you invent yourself can be devoid of

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Speaker 2: all of that. You know, my husband and I celebrate

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Speaker 2: Timmy Nolan Day because we were introduced on a blind

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Speaker 2: date at a Irish pub called Timmy Nolan's, which is

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Speaker 2: in California. And I wasn't necessarily someone that hung out

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Speaker 2: in a lot of Irish pubs, but this dude in

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Speaker 2: all leather who's very like intimidating. It was like, are

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Speaker 2: we doing Irish car bombs? I don't think we're allowed

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Speaker 2: to call them that anymore, but you know what.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about, Well, you.

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Speaker 2: Drop like Bailey's into a pint of guinness and then

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Speaker 2: you drink the whole thing in like two seconds. They're horrible.

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Speaker 2: It's like eating a loaf of bread. I was not

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Speaker 2: going to let this man outdo me, and it turned

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Speaker 2: into our personal holiday where we don't celebrate Saint Patrick's Day.

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Speaker 2: We decorate with shamrocks and Irish apparel and things for

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Speaker 2: Timmy Nolan Day, which is May nights and Yeah, I

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Speaker 2: value that holiday. I like that my children know what

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Speaker 2: Timmy Nolan Day is and it doesn't cost any money,

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Speaker 2: It isn't on anyone else's calendar. It's become an intimate

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Speaker 2: family story that we get to tell over and over

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Speaker 2: again every year, so that it holds its value.

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Speaker 1: I love that, because you know what, we need to

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Speaker 1: celebrate more of the fun moments in life.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean more are our friend aversaries, you know, yeah,

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Speaker 2: what day did you meet your best friend? What day

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Speaker 2: did you move into your house? That's your sanctuary. Those

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Speaker 2: are the kinds of things that we need to personally

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Speaker 2: celebrate so that it's not a competition with other people

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Speaker 2: as to who had the best Fourth of July fireworks.

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Speaker 2: I think having these intimate things is really important.

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Speaker 1: I couldn't agree more with you on that. And another

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Speaker 1: thing that I felt so connected to you on is

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Speaker 1: your idea and the meaning behind home and home seems

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Speaker 1: to be a very big theme throughout your life and

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Speaker 1: throughout this book. And I know you wrote that you

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Speaker 1: were longing for your home for Ithaca for such a

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Speaker 1: long time, and you write about going back there and

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Speaker 1: seeing that again and what's changed, what hasn't changed? And

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Speaker 1: I know that's something that's come up for you a lot,

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Speaker 1: and in my thirty seven years on this earth, I'm

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Speaker 1: discovering that it's come up for me a lot. So

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Speaker 1: why is there such a focus on that word, on

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Speaker 1: that theme in your life? Life Home?

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Speaker 2: Well, the book is split up into three different sections.

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Speaker 2: There's the Home of my childhood, where I was born

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Speaker 2: and I was raised, and then there is the Home

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Speaker 2: of my young adulthood, which deals a lot with Wilmington,

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Speaker 2: North Carolina. And then there is the home that I

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Speaker 2: have found for myself and my husband and our children

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Speaker 2: here in the Hudson Valley. You know, it's worth noting

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Speaker 2: that for many, many, many generations, you just live where

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Speaker 2: you were born. And it's not until recent history that

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Speaker 2: people have branched out and moved on, and the idea

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Speaker 2: of reinvention has become very popularized. You know, you leave

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Speaker 2: to go away for college, and then after college, you

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Speaker 2: leave to go away and you find your first job,

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Speaker 2: and then when you find your partner, you two go

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Speaker 2: and you move away together. And I have a glamorized

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Speaker 2: idea of what it means to live in the town

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Speaker 2: you were born in. I find the people that grew

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Speaker 2: up here and went to the schools that my son

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Speaker 2: and his friends go to, and I'm like, tell me everything.

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Speaker 2: I want to know what shitty bowling nelly you guys

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Speaker 2: hung out at. I want to know, like where the

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Speaker 2: Kissing Hill is. I want to know, like where the

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Speaker 2: kids went to like go drink without their parents. Like

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Speaker 2: I want to know all the folklore of this place,

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Speaker 2: because when I was growing up, I thought those places

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Speaker 2: would live forever. And when I was in high school,

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Speaker 2: AOL moved its headquarters to my little tiny town of

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Speaker 2: like nine thousand people, and all of a sudden, there

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Speaker 2: was a population boom, there was a building boom, and

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Speaker 2: the small town that I thought would exist forever was gone.

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Speaker 2: And so I've spent the rest of my life trying

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Speaker 2: to either recreate it or patch together bits and pieces

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Speaker 2: of it so that I don't feel adrift. You know,

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Speaker 2: I think it's really important that you have those touchstones

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Speaker 2: to remind you of who you are, so again you

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Speaker 2: can honor the journey.

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Speaker 1: And today do you feel like you've created the ideal

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Speaker 1: and perfect home for you and your family.

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Speaker 2: So last winter, my son was having trouble the seventh

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Speaker 2: grade blues we're gonna call them that. We're like, your

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Speaker 2: body's changing and your hormones are changing, and your teachers

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Speaker 2: can be kind of mean, and there are bullies at school,

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Speaker 2: and it was just a perfect storm of awful things.

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Speaker 2: And so I asked another parent. I was like, Hey,

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Speaker 2: what's going on at the school. And they were like,

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Speaker 2: funny you should ask. We need a PTSO rep for

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Speaker 2: the middle school and it's you. And I was like,

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Speaker 2: oh god, you know, I'm pretty busy busy. They're like,

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Speaker 2: it's you, babe. We're going to have an election next week.

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Speaker 2: It's you. And so, rather than make snide jokes about it,

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Speaker 2: you know, like PTA PTSO moms are usually the butt

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Speaker 2: of a lot of jokes, I decided to just commit

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Speaker 2: a whole hog to this idea that to be the

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Speaker 2: PTA Lady. And so just on Thursday and Friday, we

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Speaker 2: head back to school night Thursday night, which was a

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Speaker 2: huge success, and then we had this town picnic on

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Speaker 2: Friday where all three grade levels, it was like, the

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Speaker 2: high school, the middle school, and the elementary school all

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Speaker 2: came together at this playground in our town. And my

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Speaker 2: husband showed up and manned the grill and cooked five

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Speaker 2: hundred burgers and three hundred hot dogs for the entire town.

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Speaker 2: And I got to give out candy from our candy

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Speaker 2: store to all the kids. And it felt so deliciously dorky,

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Speaker 2: right like if you saw it in a movie, you'd

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Speaker 2: be like little heavy handed guys, like the your Nerds.

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Speaker 2: But just seeing all these kids like run around and

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Speaker 2: squeal and have fun, and the big kids taking care

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Speaker 2: of the little kids, and the little kids just like

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Speaker 2: adoring the big kids, and all the parents interacting. That's

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Speaker 2: what I got to grow up with, and I was

379
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Speaker 2: very afraid I couldn't recreate it for my kids, and

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Speaker 2: so having that happen just on Friday was so awesome.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, those are the magical moments. They're not dorky. You

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Speaker 1: look around and you think, wow, I created this life

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Speaker 1: for myself and my family, and that's amazing. And you

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Speaker 1: seem to do that quite a bit based off your book.

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Speaker 1: Throughout your life, I love when you talked about your

386
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Speaker 1: beach house aka the Goth beach House. The Goth beach House.

387
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Speaker 1: I grew up at the Jersey Shore. I grew up

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Speaker 1: at the Jersey Shore. I love the beach. And there's

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Speaker 1: this one house on the boardwalk where you're walking by

390
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Speaker 1: and you know, there are all these beautiful beach homs

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Speaker 1: and whites and creams and Beiga's, and then you get

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Speaker 1: to this house and there's like dinosaurs in front of it,

393
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Speaker 1: and it looks like a jungle and it's dark, and

394
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Speaker 1: I'm always like, what is that story? And I thought

395
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Speaker 1: of you when you talk about the goth beach house.

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Speaker 2: I see it, man, Yeah, you just I like to

397
00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:53,160
Speaker 2: be a sneak attack, you know, goth beach house. I've

398
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Speaker 2: gotten a lot of grief for. But my kids love it.

399
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Speaker 2: I think it's so fun. And anytime we have people

400
00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:02,040
Speaker 2: that have to come in there and work, they're like,

401
00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:04,359
Speaker 2: you know, it's not as bad as I thought it

402
00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:08,879
Speaker 2: would be, Like, it's actually kind of chic. So yeah,

403
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Speaker 2: we've got a goth farmhouse and a goth beach house,

404
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Speaker 2: and what more could a girl want?

405
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Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm here for all of it. And

406
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Speaker 1: I know you're also burning lots of candles in all

407
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Speaker 1: of these houses. You talk about candle magic being your favorite.

408
00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:25,440
Speaker 1: I'm a big candle guy. What is it about candles

409
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Speaker 1: that you find so magical and whimsical?

410
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Speaker 2: I think because they're tangible. I talk about how like

411
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Speaker 2: fire magic and candle magic is the thing I'm most

412
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Speaker 2: drawn to because I like a physical action to take

413
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Speaker 2: place with my intention setting, or with my prayers or

414
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Speaker 2: with my spells. You know, you can call it whatever

415
00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:47,760
Speaker 2: you want to call it, but it's all the same thing.

416
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:51,280
Speaker 2: If you are putting a desire out into the ether,

417
00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:55,679
Speaker 2: and you are putting gratitude out into the universe, and

418
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Speaker 2: you choose a deity to direct that at, having a

419
00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:04,359
Speaker 2: tangible thing just really helps you focus your energy. We

420
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Speaker 2: do it in church. We kneel when we pray in church.

421
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Speaker 2: I go to the Episcopal Church.

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Speaker 1: It's your ritual.

423
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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's your ritual. And I like being able to

424
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Speaker 2: be done with something. So if you're burning a candle

425
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Speaker 2: down to nothing, then you can put the intention out

426
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Speaker 2: there and be done with it. You know. Talk about

427
00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:27,320
Speaker 2: like pin magic with candles, putting a pin in as

428
00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:29,840
Speaker 2: you make your intention and letting the flame burn down

429
00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:32,439
Speaker 2: to that pin to see if it drops, if it

430
00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:35,920
Speaker 2: falls out, or if it gets stuck. And that's a

431
00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:37,879
Speaker 2: good indication of whether or not your intention is going

432
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Speaker 2: to work out for you. So little things like that,

433
00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:44,600
Speaker 2: I think I've seen them work in real life. I

434
00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:46,520
Speaker 2: had a girlfriend come over and we wrote a bunch

435
00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:49,280
Speaker 2: of intentions on bay Leaves. I talk about that in

436
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:51,640
Speaker 2: the book. And at the time none of her children

437
00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:55,160
Speaker 2: were in relationships, but all she wanted was for her

438
00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:59,240
Speaker 2: family to grow. And within eighteen months two over children

439
00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:01,960
Speaker 2: were married and both had children on the way.

440
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:02,440
Speaker 1: Wow.

441
00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:05,480
Speaker 2: And so she came like a double grandma super fast.

442
00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:08,359
Speaker 2: And maybe it is just putting that energy out there,

443
00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:11,119
Speaker 2: you know. I don't like to try to figure it out,

444
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:14,080
Speaker 2: because that's part of the magic. Once you know how

445
00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:17,080
Speaker 2: the magic works, the show is not as entertaining anymore.

446
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:19,840
Speaker 2: So surprise me. I like surprises.

447
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:23,040
Speaker 1: That is so true. And for people listening, they might

448
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:28,119
Speaker 1: be thinking, so is this manifesting? Is this gratitude? Is

449
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:32,800
Speaker 1: this witchcraft? I mean, how would you describe your overall

450
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:34,879
Speaker 1: beliefs and practices.

451
00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:38,439
Speaker 2: Honestly without any labels on it. I grew up in

452
00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:41,320
Speaker 2: the church. I grew up in an Evangelical Lutheran church,

453
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:45,119
Speaker 2: and then we switched over to the Methodist church and

454
00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:47,400
Speaker 2: I was the girl that was there at least two,

455
00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:50,000
Speaker 2: if not three days a week. I mean, I'm real

456
00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:54,800
Speaker 2: good at Bible jeopardy. And studying Biblical history was something

457
00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:58,399
Speaker 2: that I did for fun as a kid because I

458
00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:00,480
Speaker 2: feel like there was a piece missing, And as I

459
00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:02,760
Speaker 2: got older, I was finally able to articulate that the

460
00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:07,120
Speaker 2: piece that was missing was the feminine right. So much

461
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:09,400
Speaker 2: of what I was being taught was really male oriented

462
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:12,680
Speaker 2: and male skewed and through a male lens, because the

463
00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:16,040
Speaker 2: King James version of the Bible was absolutely written to

464
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:21,760
Speaker 2: control people, particularly women. King James had a notoriously horrible

465
00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:25,520
Speaker 2: relationship with his mother, and he is the person who

466
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:28,320
Speaker 2: really kind of kicked off those witch hunts that we

467
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:33,040
Speaker 2: like to judge from the safety of today's perspective. So

468
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:37,080
Speaker 2: once I learned that there were parts of Biblical history

469
00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:39,879
Speaker 2: that I hadn't been taught, and there very much was

470
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:44,679
Speaker 2: a divine feminine element to Christianity and faith, all these

471
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:47,280
Speaker 2: other doors opened. You know. Then all of a sudden

472
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:51,639
Speaker 2: it wasn't sacrilegious to question things or be curious. It

473
00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:56,880
Speaker 2: was actually an act of devotion to engage in one's curiosity.

474
00:25:57,320 --> 00:25:59,159
Speaker 1: Were you made to feel badly growing up if you

475
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:00,280
Speaker 1: questioned some thing?

476
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:04,120
Speaker 2: Dude? I remember there were certain movies that came out,

477
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:06,879
Speaker 2: like remember when the Craft came out, of course, and

478
00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:09,560
Speaker 2: it was like, if you see that movie, then you're

479
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:12,720
Speaker 2: a sinner, you know, Or like even when we were

480
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:15,800
Speaker 2: on One Tree Hill, I remember when the Da Vinci

481
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:19,200
Speaker 2: Code came out and there was this beautiful Catholic church

482
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:20,959
Speaker 2: by my house and I was like, I'm gonna go

483
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:25,040
Speaker 2: try it out one Sunday, and the entire sermon was

484
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:26,960
Speaker 2: about how you were a sinner if you went and

485
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:31,240
Speaker 2: you saw this movie. And that kind of control was

486
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:33,800
Speaker 2: something that I was raised with. And so to throw

487
00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:39,359
Speaker 2: off those shackles and really engage in a pursuit of

488
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:44,800
Speaker 2: curiosity and knowledge and history and just mythology. I think

489
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:48,760
Speaker 2: mythology is so important because there are universal truths that

490
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:52,520
Speaker 2: are hard for humans to accept, like death, like loss,

491
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:56,280
Speaker 2: like betrayal, and if we can tell a story that

492
00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,120
Speaker 2: helps you understand that it happens to everyone and you're

493
00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:03,040
Speaker 2: not alone, I think that that's a really important quality

494
00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:06,440
Speaker 2: that humans have that maybe other species don't have. We

495
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:08,480
Speaker 2: have been gifted with the art of storytelling.

496
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:10,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I like how you touched upon the importance

497
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:16,720
Speaker 1: of having women's voices being heard and accurately depicted throughout history,

498
00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:20,040
Speaker 1: which we all know that just wasn't the case, sadly,

499
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:22,560
Speaker 1: and though God sometimes that has not changed, I guess

500
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 1: in today's day and age. But I like that you're

501
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:28,800
Speaker 1: pulled to wanting to share and connect with women and

502
00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:32,640
Speaker 1: you talk about your coven. Right, And here's another quote

503
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:34,880
Speaker 1: you wrote that I love so much. You wrote that,

504
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:39,879
Speaker 1: throughout my life, I've been drawn to groups of magnetic, complicated,

505
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 1: bright creatures. They are my rider dies, my army, my squad.

506
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:48,000
Speaker 1: You could also say they are my coven. So when

507
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:50,480
Speaker 1: was the first time you realized you had a coven?

508
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:53,800
Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean I grew up with a group where

509
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:58,400
Speaker 2: we had named ourselves the Squatches, right, and we didn't

510
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:01,000
Speaker 2: even realize it was a coven. It was our pack

511
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:07,320
Speaker 2: of like fiercely female friends and we had been watching

512
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 2: like Miss America pageants. We were all like on the

513
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:14,080
Speaker 2: cheerleading squad. I don't know. That whole ceremony was so

514
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:16,720
Speaker 2: baffling to us, And so there was a mix of

515
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:22,080
Speaker 2: awe but also like shitty teenage humor. And there was

516
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:25,080
Speaker 2: just one girl that could not walk in those high

517
00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:29,680
Speaker 2: heels and they had her stomping across the stage for

518
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:33,479
Speaker 2: Allsworth and we were rooting for her because she was

519
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:36,600
Speaker 2: clearly the underdog, but she walked like Sasquatch and that

520
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:41,280
Speaker 2: very famous video of him like sautering through woods and

521
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:45,080
Speaker 2: we're like, yes, that's us. We're the Squatches. We're the

522
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 2: awkward girl trying to move across the stage. And so

523
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:52,280
Speaker 2: that was my first coven. But it wasn't until I

524
00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:55,680
Speaker 2: worked on One Tree Hill that I made friends with

525
00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:59,360
Speaker 2: a couple older women who very much took me under

526
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:02,640
Speaker 2: their wing a very toxic time in my life and

527
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:08,840
Speaker 2: provided me with different perspectives and outlets for serenity and

528
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:12,440
Speaker 2: just the wisdom that they'd accumulated. And they were the

529
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:16,440
Speaker 2: first people to say out loud, this is our coven.

530
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:19,239
Speaker 2: And I remember being very uncomfortable with it, you know,

531
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:24,160
Speaker 2: my Christian upbringing was just still still there. Yeah, And

532
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:26,520
Speaker 2: it took a minute for me to relax into it

533
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 2: and realize that this isn't dangerous, this isn't taboo, This

534
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 2: is actually probably the safest I've been in a very

535
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:34,680
Speaker 2: long time.

536
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:37,160
Speaker 1: What a nice feeling that must have been, right.

537
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, the second I would step into their homes, I

538
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:43,960
Speaker 2: knew I was totally safe, and that was a very

539
00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:46,000
Speaker 2: rare feeling for me during that time.

540
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:48,920
Speaker 1: Wow, that's that's something I think we should all be

541
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:51,760
Speaker 1: so lucky in life to find and to hold on

542
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:55,240
Speaker 1: to it and treasure those relationships and those covens. I

543
00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:58,360
Speaker 1: think is truly magical. But you are somebody who creates

544
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:00,960
Speaker 1: magic daily. It's very obvious from reading your book. You

545
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:04,360
Speaker 1: find the moments and you create those moments. So how

546
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:07,120
Speaker 1: do you find the magical moments in everyday life, even

547
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 1: during the toughest, grimmest times.

548
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think having a sense of humor

549
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:16,120
Speaker 2: is really important. I think growing up in a theater

550
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 2: community is probably pretty helpful. Even when I bought my

551
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:23,360
Speaker 2: first house, I remember people being like, you're not decorating

552
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 2: a house like a house. You're making sets, you know,

553
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:29,280
Speaker 2: like this is your Victorian set, this is your Wild

554
00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:32,080
Speaker 2: West set, this is your you know, it's your Annegreen

555
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 2: Tables set. And the idea that we don't have to

556
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:41,240
Speaker 2: adhere to the rules, right whether you're decorating your home

557
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 2: or you're making lunch for your kids. You know, I

558
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:48,520
Speaker 2: put creepy things on the napkins that might go in

559
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:50,880
Speaker 2: my kid's lunchboxes, just so at some point in the

560
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:53,720
Speaker 2: day there's a little bit of laughter, even if maybe

561
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:57,160
Speaker 2: the school day has been hard, maintaining your sense of

562
00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:01,640
Speaker 2: humor and your sense of the theatrical is what makes

563
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:05,480
Speaker 2: life fun. I'm not sure how I would be able

564
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:11,000
Speaker 2: to handle the day to day monotony of get up,

565
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 2: go to school, go to work, pick up from school,

566
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:16,240
Speaker 2: make dinner, do the grocery shopping, you know, like do

567
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:20,480
Speaker 2: all the things if there wasn't an element of play involved.

568
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 2: And that's groomed out of us at some point, and

569
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 2: so it's our adult responsibility, especially if you're a parent,

570
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 2: to bring that element of play back in.

571
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 1: You even talk about that in the book when you

572
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:37,160
Speaker 1: bring up the concept of death, and it's a very

573
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:40,080
Speaker 1: uncomfortable topic for a lot of people to think about.

574
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 1: I know my dad and my stepmom they hate talking

575
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:47,040
Speaker 1: about it. There. My dad's late sixties. He says every

576
00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:49,080
Speaker 1: day I'm closer to dying, and it's a very tough

577
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:51,440
Speaker 1: relationship he has with death. And I look at him

578
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 1: and I think, oh my god, this is so sad,

579
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:56,600
Speaker 1: because you're you're wasting your alive years, your vibrant years,

580
00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 1: your semi retire like live your best life, and your

581
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 1: think thinking about death every day, and it breaks my heart.

582
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:06,040
Speaker 1: But you have this outlook where you say we should

583
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 1: even go write our own obituaries.

584
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:11,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I talk in the book about writing

585
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:14,760
Speaker 2: your own eulogy. And it's hard for me to say this,

586
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:19,239
Speaker 2: but that is the single most important thing that I

587
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 2: have done, is keep this list of all of the

588
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 2: things that I've done in my life that are kind

589
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:31,040
Speaker 2: of weird, or that were transformative, or that were really

590
00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:34,400
Speaker 2: silly that like my kids will never know about. My

591
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 2: kids will never know about, like a weird night I

592
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:39,720
Speaker 2: had in Paris, dancing in a nightclub with a snake

593
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:42,960
Speaker 2: around my neck, They'll never know. Like, those are things

594
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:45,960
Speaker 2: that you don't experience about your parent, Those are things

595
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 2: that you don't necessarily experience about your spouse or your

596
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:54,800
Speaker 2: best friends. Like, everybody has their own personal well of experience.

597
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:58,240
Speaker 2: And so rather than let someone else write this list

598
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:01,920
Speaker 2: for you when you die of like what mattered to you,

599
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:06,000
Speaker 2: write it for yourself. And then even when you're alive

600
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:12,040
Speaker 2: and you are in moments of despair or uncertainty, being

601
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:14,000
Speaker 2: able to look at that list of things that I've

602
00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 2: done and realize, like, Okay, I did that at my lowest.

603
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 2: I did that when I was really insecure. I did

604
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:26,880
Speaker 2: that when you know I was in a terrible relationship.

605
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:29,840
Speaker 2: You're able to see that you were able to accomplish

606
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:33,320
Speaker 2: things even in dark days, and it gives a lot

607
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:36,560
Speaker 2: of hope and perspective. I revisit it all the time.

608
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 2: I love my eulogy list. My kids are going to

609
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:41,800
Speaker 2: be so mortified when that gets read out loud.

610
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:45,320
Speaker 1: Har But you know what I love about that. It's

611
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 1: something for you too, like you're going to live a

612
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:50,440
Speaker 1: long and fruitful life ahead still, but when that day

613
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 1: does come, you're going to feel like, Okay, I'm putting

614
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:54,480
Speaker 1: out what I want. And you share a story about

615
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:58,360
Speaker 1: the grandmother who had Ouiji bords passed out as all right,

616
00:33:58,400 --> 00:33:59,440
Speaker 1: and that was for her.

617
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:03,680
Speaker 2: The grandmother that put it like at her funeral gave

618
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 2: out the little ouiji boards and said keep in touch

619
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 2: on the back of them. She she loved it. But

620
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:14,320
Speaker 2: that's that sense of humor, that's that sense of mischief

621
00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:19,040
Speaker 2: that she retained her whole life. And so I think

622
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 2: the end is less scary if there's a joke that

623
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 2: you're in on, And that's certainly my perspective. You know,

624
00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:29,280
Speaker 2: I hold my kids, I'm like I could go tomorrow,

625
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:32,799
Speaker 2: and I've had the best time ever. Not because shit

626
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:35,920
Speaker 2: was easy for me, but because I understood how to

627
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:38,480
Speaker 2: make it funny. Just make it funny.

628
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 1: It's a beautiful perspective to have. There's so many themes

629
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:50,160
Speaker 1: of spirituality in this book and diving deeper into those

630
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 1: sorts of things, but there's also themes about synchronous cities

631
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:57,160
Speaker 1: and ugh, there are so many in life if you

632
00:34:57,200 --> 00:34:59,360
Speaker 1: pay attention to them. And you had one that happened

633
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 1: in twenty I believe when you launched your podcast, and

634
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:05,280
Speaker 1: I loved this story if you could share it real quick.

635
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:09,560
Speaker 2: So the entire time I lived in Wilmington working on

636
00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:12,759
Speaker 2: One Tree Hill, I lived in a haunted house. It

637
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 2: was a Victorian house from the eighteen nineties. I bought

638
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:20,200
Speaker 2: it impulsively in season one when everyone was like, we're

639
00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:22,920
Speaker 2: getting canceled, and I was like, eh, no, we're not.

640
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 2: And what I learned was that the woman who lived

641
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:30,080
Speaker 2: in this house her entire life had been a very

642
00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:35,200
Speaker 2: well respected artist in the community. She was a painting teacher,

643
00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:38,480
Speaker 2: but she also was heavily involved with the theater, and

644
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:43,120
Speaker 2: so that house was a hub of activity where all

645
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:46,439
Speaker 2: the artists gathered in the community and she would throw

646
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:49,799
Speaker 2: these parties and it was all really fantastic. And so

647
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:54,640
Speaker 2: I hadn't necessarily revisited that chapter of my life, particularly

648
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:58,200
Speaker 2: since the Me Too movement, because having everyone understand your

649
00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:03,400
Speaker 2: trauma makes it hard to talk about anything else. But

650
00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:06,200
Speaker 2: maybe is lighthearted, right, because it just becomes all about

651
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:09,880
Speaker 2: the trauma. As we're launching the podcast, and I was

652
00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:15,279
Speaker 2: pretty insecure about the Drama Queen's podcast because we were

653
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:18,600
Speaker 2: just talking all things. One Tree Hill and I had

654
00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:21,520
Speaker 2: been in touch with an art dealer over the course

655
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 2: of six months, and he was like, I have a

656
00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:29,680
Speaker 2: Hester Donnelly painting. Do you want it? I was like, yes, please,

657
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:34,720
Speaker 2: and he was busy. I was busy, he was busy.

658
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:37,719
Speaker 2: I was out of town. Just the shipping of this

659
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:43,200
Speaker 2: painting became a process, and so the day that Drama

660
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:46,680
Speaker 2: Queens was premiering, I was horrified because I did not

661
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:49,680
Speaker 2: know how people were going to take it. And I

662
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:52,600
Speaker 2: get this package in the mail and it is my

663
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:57,919
Speaker 2: Hester Donnelly painting, and I had the ghost that took

664
00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:00,560
Speaker 2: care of me and kept me company all those years

665
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:05,280
Speaker 2: down there finally like in my possession here in New York,

666
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:07,399
Speaker 2: and it was so good to have her artwork there

667
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:10,560
Speaker 2: and you can see every brushstroke, you can see her handwriting,

668
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 2: you can see the colors that she chose, and it

669
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:18,000
Speaker 2: was such a nice, warm reminder that those artistic communities,

670
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:21,760
Speaker 2: if you foster them, will stay with you forever, even

671
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:25,080
Speaker 2: in death, even as a ghost. Hester is just that's

672
00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:26,719
Speaker 2: my lady. She took care of me.

673
00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:29,440
Speaker 1: Like I said, if you look for those moments of

674
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:33,279
Speaker 1: sant Greno City's they happen and they are not coincidental.

675
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:35,600
Speaker 1: And you needed that on that day. You needed it.

676
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:39,640
Speaker 2: But I needed to feel home on that day, and

677
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:42,879
Speaker 2: of all the days for that thing to arrive over

678
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:46,279
Speaker 2: the course of months, it showed up exactly when I

679
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:46,920
Speaker 2: needed it.

680
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:49,520
Speaker 1: It's funny how those moments of magic happen, and like

681
00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:51,640
Speaker 1: you said, it's not our job to figure out the why.

682
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:54,200
Speaker 2: It's just that ruins it. Boo hands.

683
00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:58,239
Speaker 1: Yes, Hillary, what do you hope people get from this book?

684
00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 1: There's so many great stories like the one we just

685
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:02,600
Speaker 1: talked about. I want people to read it for themselves,

686
00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:04,799
Speaker 1: so I don't want to share any more stories like that,

687
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:07,080
Speaker 1: but I wanted to give them a taste because I

688
00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:08,880
Speaker 1: know what I got from this book. But what do

689
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:09,919
Speaker 1: you hope people get.

690
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:15,279
Speaker 2: I mean, we all just dealt with this huge traumatic

691
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:20,880
Speaker 2: situation with COVID, the pandemic, the political landscape in our country.

692
00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:27,880
Speaker 2: There has been huge trauma, and I am someone who

693
00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:32,680
Speaker 2: I like to confront it head on and not pretend

694
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:36,640
Speaker 2: like everything's okay. And I think in writing this book,

695
00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 2: it forced me to commit to my beliefs. When you

696
00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:42,680
Speaker 2: put something down on paper, that's a commitment, and then

697
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:45,480
Speaker 2: when you share it, that's a commitment. And then when

698
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:48,239
Speaker 2: you share it on like a mass level, that's a

699
00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:52,080
Speaker 2: really big commitment. And I needed to make that commitment

700
00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:55,760
Speaker 2: before I could encourage anyone else to do the same.

701
00:38:56,520 --> 00:39:00,560
Speaker 2: So my hope is that people will take whether it's

702
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:05,240
Speaker 2: a large collective trauma or a very personal intimate trauma,

703
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:10,280
Speaker 2: and they will find the magical practices or the ideology

704
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:15,279
Speaker 2: or the spirituality or the mythology, any of that that

705
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:18,319
Speaker 2: is a balm for what they're suffering, so that they

706
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:21,160
Speaker 2: can get back to the joyful parts of life. We

707
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:24,080
Speaker 2: get such a tiny, tiny, tiny chunk of time here,

708
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:28,160
Speaker 2: and I want everyone to feel like they are the

709
00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:32,359
Speaker 2: main character of their own personal hero's journey. You know,

710
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:35,560
Speaker 2: we're all on our own journey. You're the hero of

711
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:38,680
Speaker 2: your story, so make it a really good story.

712
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:42,319
Speaker 1: Isn't that the best that we have the opportunity to

713
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:42,759
Speaker 1: do that?

714
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:47,160
Speaker 2: Oh? I love hearing other people's journeys. I love it.

715
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:48,799
Speaker 2: I'm the chick that would sit in a bar for

716
00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:52,399
Speaker 2: hours talking to strangers, and now I do the same

717
00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:55,480
Speaker 2: thing with Ptso I'm like, tell me everything.

718
00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:57,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, where're you from?

719
00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:01,160
Speaker 2: How'd you get here? Yeah? I think encouraging people to

720
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:08,240
Speaker 2: live a really loud, authentic, messy, colorful life is important.

721
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:11,319
Speaker 2: You need a cheerleader in your corner helping you do that.

722
00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:14,600
Speaker 2: And if I can be a cheerleader for people, that's

723
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:15,839
Speaker 2: what I want to do.

724
00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:18,719
Speaker 1: It's so refreshing to hear that. I feel you so

725
00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:21,120
Speaker 1: deeply on that. It's why I started the show. You know,

726
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:23,279
Speaker 1: when I work a red carpet, you get two three

727
00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:25,319
Speaker 1: minutes with someone. You don't get to dive deep. And

728
00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:28,279
Speaker 1: I'm interested in all of the things that make up

729
00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:33,319
Speaker 1: a person and not just the flashy headlines of somebody's life.

730
00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:35,160
Speaker 1: I want to know the whys and the how and

731
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:38,680
Speaker 1: the whens and where's right, all that delicious information you

732
00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:41,960
Speaker 1: can't get in a quick conversation. So I so feel

733
00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:44,520
Speaker 1: you on that. And what's so evident to me, Hillary

734
00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:47,920
Speaker 1: is you are somebody who brings so much joy to

735
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:51,080
Speaker 1: the people that have you in their lives, and you

736
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:55,240
Speaker 1: enrich them by listening to their stories and to feel

737
00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:57,160
Speaker 1: who they are as a human being. And that's such

738
00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:00,520
Speaker 1: a gift because you don't get that as much in

739
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:03,640
Speaker 1: this day and age, with whether it's social media or

740
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:06,120
Speaker 1: everyone's working at a lot of different jobs to make ends meet,

741
00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:08,799
Speaker 1: or whatever the situation may be. You take the time

742
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:11,000
Speaker 1: and pour it into somebody. And even when I sent

743
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:13,359
Speaker 1: that tweet out talking about your book, I started getting

744
00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:15,520
Speaker 1: all these tweets from people saying how much they look

745
00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:18,520
Speaker 1: up to you and admire you. And I would be

746
00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:20,680
Speaker 1: remiss if I don't bring this up. Because there was

747
00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:24,440
Speaker 1: one woman I believe she's late thirties who wrote to

748
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:28,719
Speaker 1: me and she said something as simple as you posting

749
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:32,200
Speaker 1: about having your long, beautiful, luscious gray hair means the

750
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:34,920
Speaker 1: world to her because she went gray young and has

751
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:37,279
Speaker 1: been terrorized for it so much throughout her life. And

752
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:39,520
Speaker 1: here she is looking at someone like you, embracing it

753
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:42,440
Speaker 1: and loving it and feeling beautiful with it, and that

754
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:45,799
Speaker 1: meant everything to her. Is it important for you to

755
00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:48,320
Speaker 1: put out messages like that, Yeah.

756
00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:52,200
Speaker 2: Because I was a part of the machine for so long,

757
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:58,720
Speaker 2: whether that was selling stories, people, musicians, whatever at MTV,

758
00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:03,120
Speaker 2: or then being you know, like a teen drama actress,

759
00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:07,520
Speaker 2: where I had to sell this illusion of what's cool

760
00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:11,600
Speaker 2: or what's pretty, or what's acceptable, what you should be

761
00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:14,440
Speaker 2: living up to. I talked about it at the time

762
00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:18,080
Speaker 2: as the new normal. I said, I didn't like the

763
00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:21,960
Speaker 2: new normal we were creating. I was really worried. And

764
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:23,920
Speaker 2: so that's where a lot of the conflict on that

765
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:27,759
Speaker 2: particular show stemmed from, is that I thought, perhaps we

766
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:31,600
Speaker 2: should be less cool, we should be more awkward like

767
00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:36,319
Speaker 2: teenagers actually are. And then as an adult, there's not

768
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:39,359
Speaker 2: as much pressure, right. I think I've always felt kind

769
00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:44,360
Speaker 2: of this weight to be honest with kids, like teenagers,

770
00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:48,440
Speaker 2: specifically adults, you know, like white collar. I felt no

771
00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:50,480
Speaker 2: trauma doing that. I was like, yeah, I'll we're a

772
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:55,640
Speaker 2: pencil skirts signed mea. But I've seen behind the smoke

773
00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:59,759
Speaker 2: and mirrors, and I see social media the same as

774
00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:03,640
Speaker 2: everybody else does, and I see I can tell as

775
00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:08,400
Speaker 2: a producer what's produced and is being presented as reality

776
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:13,640
Speaker 2: and that freaks me out. And so I think the

777
00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:19,480
Speaker 2: grittier and messier I can be to hopefully counterbalance that,

778
00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:23,560
Speaker 2: the better. You know, women in particular are told you

779
00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:26,680
Speaker 2: have to look twenty eight forever, and you have to

780
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:30,120
Speaker 2: act twenty eight forever, and you're not allowed to be tired,

781
00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:32,759
Speaker 2: and you're not allowed to be grumpy, and you're not

782
00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:36,360
Speaker 2: allowed to be all these things, And god damn it,

783
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:38,920
Speaker 2: I'm going to be every single one of those things.

784
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:43,759
Speaker 1: Well good on you, because that's a message we need

785
00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:47,600
Speaker 1: more and more in this world. As we wrap up today,

786
00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:49,600
Speaker 1: the name of the show is of course, I've never

787
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:53,120
Speaker 1: said this before, and you're someone who has been so

788
00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:57,520
Speaker 1: open and honest throughout your books and interviews and on

789
00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:00,879
Speaker 1: social media, But I'm wondering if there is something, whether

790
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:03,800
Speaker 1: it's silly, whether it's deep, that you've never said before.

791
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:08,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I think when you hit the age

792
00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:12,480
Speaker 2: I am, I'm forty one and I have kids who

793
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:17,960
Speaker 2: are becoming ages that I vividly remember, right, it changes

794
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:21,240
Speaker 2: your perspective about the narrative you were fed as a kid.

795
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:25,640
Speaker 2: And it has been on my mind constantly and the

796
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:30,319
Speaker 2: lead up to this book that I finally feel like

797
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:33,200
Speaker 2: I'm on the path to doing the thing that I

798
00:44:33,239 --> 00:44:37,520
Speaker 2: actually wanted to do as a kid. It's very hard

799
00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:40,600
Speaker 2: for me to say that I just realized at forty

800
00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:43,680
Speaker 2: one years old that I don't like acting. That it

801
00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:47,400
Speaker 2: was never something I wanted to do, but I got

802
00:44:47,680 --> 00:44:51,719
Speaker 2: love for it. And so you learn to do the

803
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:54,880
Speaker 2: thing that you are rewarded for. You're like dogs, you know.

804
00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:57,399
Speaker 2: It's like, I got a treat for that. Cool. I'll

805
00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:02,000
Speaker 2: keep doing that trick so to be able to pivot

806
00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:07,759
Speaker 2: in my career and start with these nonfiction books and

807
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:11,560
Speaker 2: then I'm moving into fiction now. That's like the next

808
00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:17,080
Speaker 2: thing that terrifies me. People being supportive of that is

809
00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:21,240
Speaker 2: something that floors me on a regular basis, because having

810
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:27,280
Speaker 2: to discover that thing about yourself privately is hard. Having

811
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:31,960
Speaker 2: to discover it about yourself publicly is super weird. And

812
00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:36,359
Speaker 2: so as we watch One Tree Hillback for the podcast,

813
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:40,360
Speaker 2: I can see my castmates miss it, and it dawned

814
00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:44,160
Speaker 2: on me one day, but I was like, I have

815
00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:48,080
Speaker 2: zero desire. I like other parts of it. I like

816
00:45:48,719 --> 00:45:52,320
Speaker 2: the teamwork part of it. I really like making things

817
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:56,239
Speaker 2: with other people and bouncing ideas off each other. But

818
00:45:56,320 --> 00:46:01,000
Speaker 2: I have that fulfilled through ptso now so there's zero

819
00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:05,240
Speaker 2: desire to be on a set. So yeah, in this phase,

820
00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:09,279
Speaker 2: it's nice to be able to do something that I

821
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:13,160
Speaker 2: wanted to do that maybe wasn't as valued when I

822
00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:13,800
Speaker 2: was younger.

823
00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:17,439
Speaker 1: And I think that's such a brave and important thing

824
00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:21,200
Speaker 1: to say, and I thank you for that. And I

825
00:46:21,239 --> 00:46:23,560
Speaker 1: was starting to feel emotional hearing you talk about it,

826
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:27,839
Speaker 1: because I think people think they see someone's success and

827
00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:31,960
Speaker 1: that they're so happy and content and everything is amazing

828
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:34,160
Speaker 1: in the world, and it's easy to fall into the

829
00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:36,840
Speaker 1: pattern of sticking to something that doesn't truly fulfill you,

830
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:39,200
Speaker 1: which I believe is why there is so much unhappiness

831
00:46:39,239 --> 00:46:41,680
Speaker 1: in this world. But to get out of that and

832
00:46:41,719 --> 00:46:44,200
Speaker 1: be grateful for the opportunities and what you did, which

833
00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:47,359
Speaker 1: you so clearly are, but to know that there's more

834
00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:50,200
Speaker 1: for you that will fulfill you in an even bigger way,

835
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:53,960
Speaker 1: I think is incredible. And I really thank you for

836
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:56,120
Speaker 1: sharing that because I think a lot of people listening

837
00:46:56,160 --> 00:46:58,319
Speaker 1: will say, you know what, this is a good day

838
00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:00,560
Speaker 1: to change the course of my life, and that is

839
00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:02,720
Speaker 1: due to you and what you said today.

840
00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:06,120
Speaker 2: Well, thank you, and I think it helps us not

841
00:47:06,239 --> 00:47:08,799
Speaker 2: be so judgmental to a lot of young people that

842
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:11,839
Speaker 2: we see in the industry, because I can look at

843
00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:14,680
Speaker 2: a lot of them and be like, that's someone whose

844
00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:19,320
Speaker 2: love was conditional, and let's be gentle with those people.

845
00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:21,560
Speaker 2: Let's be nice to their babies.

846
00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:26,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, a lesson all worth hearing over and over again. Hillary,

847
00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:28,440
Speaker 1: I love this book so much. I could keep you

848
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:32,000
Speaker 1: for five more hours, but I won't. It is out now.

849
00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:33,920
Speaker 1: How can people get this book?

850
00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:36,960
Speaker 2: We have a website that's the link in my bio

851
00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:41,120
Speaker 2: has the Amazon link, the Barnes and Noble link, the

852
00:47:41,520 --> 00:47:45,120
Speaker 2: small bookstore link. You know, We're trying to put as

853
00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:48,919
Speaker 2: many different outlets out there as possible. And the audiobook

854
00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:52,279
Speaker 2: is also out there that I narrated, which is so

855
00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:55,160
Speaker 2: weird having to read your own words out loud because

856
00:47:55,200 --> 00:48:00,640
Speaker 2: you're like, am I performing right now? Yeah, that's a

857
00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:04,680
Speaker 2: fun experience, especially for the engineer, the sound engineer that

858
00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:06,439
Speaker 2: has to sit there with you and listen to all

859
00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:09,399
Speaker 2: of your intimate stories and then you're like, cool man,

860
00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:14,239
Speaker 2: see you tomorrow. So yeah, I mean, there's lots of

861
00:48:14,239 --> 00:48:16,640
Speaker 2: different ways to get it. But my new favorite thing

862
00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:18,839
Speaker 2: that I'm trying to encourage people to do is. I'm

863
00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:22,720
Speaker 2: supporting the little mini libraries that you see in towns,

864
00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:25,440
Speaker 2: like the little bird house looking things full of free books.

865
00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:29,200
Speaker 2: I'm encouraging people to buy a second copy to put

866
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:31,840
Speaker 2: in those because you never know who in your town

867
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:36,440
Speaker 2: really really needs a dose of magic. And so I'm

868
00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:39,640
Speaker 2: hiding them all throughout my town. And I hope that

869
00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:41,279
Speaker 2: other people are in on the game.

870
00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:44,200
Speaker 1: All right, Everyone, get on that scavenger hut and Hillary.

871
00:48:44,239 --> 00:48:46,160
Speaker 1: I hope that we have the chance one day to

872
00:48:46,719 --> 00:48:50,319
Speaker 1: I don't know, do a ghost tour, or they drink

873
00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:53,040
Speaker 1: at a bar that's spooky and haunted, or just all

874
00:48:53,080 --> 00:48:54,040
Speaker 1: the things. I'm with you.

875
00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:57,600
Speaker 2: There's the Catacombs in Lower Manhattan. We're going. I'll get

876
00:48:57,640 --> 00:48:58,280
Speaker 2: the reservation.

877
00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:03,719
Speaker 1: Never knew that existed. I'm in gone, all right, my love.

878
00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:06,719
Speaker 1: Congrats on this book. I'm so happy for you. Everybody,

879
00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:08,560
Speaker 1: go out and read it and support it, especially in

880
00:49:08,600 --> 00:49:11,320
Speaker 1: the month of October. It's what's more perfect than reading

881
00:49:11,320 --> 00:49:14,960
Speaker 1: this book this month, although it's year round, but it's

882
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:17,279
Speaker 1: extra fun this month. And thank you for your time.

883
00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:18,560
Speaker 1: Wishing you all the success.

884
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:22,680
Speaker 2: Thank you, You're so wonderful. I really heartfelt appreciation for

885
00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:23,320
Speaker 2: your support.

886
00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:25,560
Speaker 1: Thank you thank you, thank you, have a good one,

887
00:49:25,719 --> 00:49:31,040
Speaker 1: all right by I've Never Said This Before is hosted

888
00:49:31,120 --> 00:49:35,680
Speaker 1: by Me Tommy Didario. This podcast is executive produced by

889
00:49:35,719 --> 00:49:39,720
Speaker 1: Andrew Pivlisi at iHeartRadio and by Me Tommy, with editing

890
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:43,520
Speaker 1: by Joshua Colaudney. I've Never Said This Before is part

891
00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:48,160
Speaker 1: of the Elvis Duran podcast Network on iHeart Podcasts. For more, rate,

892
00:49:48,280 --> 00:49:51,120
Speaker 1: review and subscribe to our show and if you liked

893
00:49:51,160 --> 00:49:54,880
Speaker 1: this episode, tell your friends. Until next time, I'm Tommy

894
00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:55,400
Speaker 1: de Dario.