1 00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:07,640 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. I'm open to stuff. 2 00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:19,680 Speaker 1: I'll never tell your protection of iHeartRadio. And today is 3 00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:23,919 Speaker 1: December eleventh, twenty twenty five. We're getting towards the end 4 00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:26,880 Speaker 1: of the year, and as mentioned, we're trying to for 5 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 1: now do lighter topics. January is going to come in 6 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 1: like a wrecking ball, I think. But as we're moving 7 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 1: through this, we're trying to do lighter topics and I've 8 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:40,599 Speaker 1: kind of failed at picking. I thought I had one 9 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:42,839 Speaker 1: with this one, and I didn't. I don't know what 10 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 1: I was thinking. But we are talking about compulsory heterosexuality today, 11 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:53,479 Speaker 1: or compet and I've been thinking about this for a 12 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:57,040 Speaker 1: lot for a while because of our discussion around the 13 00:00:57,280 --> 00:01:00,960 Speaker 1: you know, as having a boyfriend, embarrassing thing, the normal 14 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:06,200 Speaker 1: gay discourse that's happening too. So I just kind of 15 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 1: was like, and also, to be honest with you, I've 16 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:12,720 Speaker 1: seen this playing out in some fandoms recently, so I'm like, 17 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:17,959 Speaker 1: let's just talk about what this is. So we actually 18 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 1: have talked about this before, but yes, yes, But to 19 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:27,839 Speaker 1: define compulsory heterosexuality is the idea that heterosexuality is something 20 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:32,640 Speaker 1: that is enforced by the patriarchy as the norm. It 21 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:37,360 Speaker 1: is an internalized feeling that keeps queer people from questioning 22 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 1: or coming out or exploring their sexuality. It's related to 23 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:46,120 Speaker 1: terms like heteronormativity and internalized homophobia, but they're not the 24 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:50,240 Speaker 1: same thing. Heteronormativity is sort of the thing that leads 25 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 1: to compulsory heterosexuality. It impacts everyone, even if you didn't 26 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 1: grow up in a homophobic environment, and even if you 27 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 1: are straight. The term compulsory heterosexuality originated with Adrian Rich's 28 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:12,239 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty essay Compulsory Heterosexuality and the Lesbian Experience, which 29 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:17,080 Speaker 1: largely focused on women straight and gay, but women. Here's 30 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 1: a quote from a Cosmopolitan article about it. According to 31 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:24,799 Speaker 1: sex writer Cheyenne M. Davis, compulsory heterosexuality is the notion 32 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 1: that heterosexuality is the only valid sexuality and that everyone 33 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:32,960 Speaker 1: should be is expected to be straight. It is harmful 34 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:37,120 Speaker 1: to queer, trans, and or nonsysgender folk. They say it 35 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:42,480 Speaker 1: erases and demonizes these identities while simultaneously trying to force 36 00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:46,120 Speaker 1: us to adopt a system where we must perform straightness 37 00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 1: and ciseness. So I have told this story before, but 38 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:52,840 Speaker 1: I assumed I couldn't be gay for a long time, 39 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 1: like up until after college. Even when I realized I 40 00:02:57,120 --> 00:03:01,359 Speaker 1: probably was, and I prayed I was wrong. I thought 41 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:04,840 Speaker 1: I could fix it, which is a horrible way to think, 42 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 1: but that's what I thought. And I was the town 43 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 1: feminist and I thought this, and I tried so hard 44 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:15,760 Speaker 1: to fit in and be quote normal, which in this 45 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:20,239 Speaker 1: case would mean not queer. And when my ex and 46 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:23,560 Speaker 1: I started dating my last ex, he told me pretty 47 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 1: much everyone in his friend group already assumed we were 48 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 1: dating and or that I was sending out signals, and 49 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:32,840 Speaker 1: I truly just thought we were friends and I liked 50 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:35,680 Speaker 1: hanging out with him. I'm not saying that it never 51 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 1: works that way, that you know you're sending signals or whatever, 52 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:42,920 Speaker 1: but that's that's sort of what we're talking about here. 53 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:45,520 Speaker 1: Like even in elementary school, of kids at the opposite 54 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 1: sex start hanging out, you're like, ooh, are y all dating? 55 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 1: Or when I felt like I had to start dating anyway, 56 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:54,640 Speaker 1: when I honestly never really wanted to, but all my 57 00:03:54,760 --> 00:03:57,400 Speaker 1: friends were and it would be obvious if I was 58 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 1: the one that was not. It shows up a million 59 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 1: different ways, and it is harmful just to reiterate someone 60 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 1: being with someone of the opposite sex does not mean 61 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 1: they aren't gay, just say it. Bisexuality exist, internalized homophobia exist, 62 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:24,120 Speaker 1: aging and learning exist, and compulsory heterosexuality or compet impacts everybody, 63 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 1: like I said, even straight folks. In Richest Essays You 64 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:35,280 Speaker 1: suggests that the whole heterosexuality thing as default is patriarchal political. 65 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:38,480 Speaker 1: It's an institution to a certain legal and social control 66 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:41,760 Speaker 1: over women, to make them dependent on men who are 67 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 1: meant to control them or keep them in line maintain 68 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:50,160 Speaker 1: the norm. She writes, women have married because it was 69 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 1: necessary in order to survive. We may faithfully or ambivalently 70 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:58,000 Speaker 1: have obeyed the institution, but our feelings and our sensuality 71 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 1: have not been tamed or contained with in it. I 72 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:03,520 Speaker 1: would also add that coming out as gay has and 73 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:08,039 Speaker 1: is not always safe. You've got straight privilege people want 74 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 1: to hang on to. For people growing up during the 75 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:12,680 Speaker 1: AIDS epidemic, for instance, you may have been watching the 76 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:17,680 Speaker 1: news and essentially see like, oh, they got what they deserved, 77 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 1: or hear things like it's unnatural. It can lead to 78 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:26,560 Speaker 1: discrimination that directly impacts your life. This is also related 79 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:31,039 Speaker 1: to straight performativeness or learned straightness, and it could lead 80 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:33,719 Speaker 1: to pressure for finding a partner of the opposite sex 81 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 1: to prove your straightness or to fit in to societal norms, 82 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:40,920 Speaker 1: even if you don't feel a desire or true want 83 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:44,279 Speaker 1: to do so, as well as oppressing your own sexuality 84 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:47,720 Speaker 1: and feelings of shame and guilt that you might have. 85 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:51,479 Speaker 1: This is reinforced by the whole It's just a phase, 86 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:54,600 Speaker 1: you'll grow out of it thing, or you haven't found 87 00:05:54,640 --> 00:06:00,120 Speaker 1: the right guy yet. Lesbians are also often sexualized the 88 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:05,040 Speaker 1: male gays in our media, so there's that For queer people. 89 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:10,039 Speaker 1: This can lead to a feeling of being othered or abnormal, isolated, 90 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 1: and scared back to the control Rich was talking about 91 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:27,440 Speaker 1: in her essay. So this can manifest in a lot 92 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:32,680 Speaker 1: of ways. Financially socially, are just wearing women down in 93 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:36,480 Speaker 1: these relationships, which is something else we've been talking about 94 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:40,960 Speaker 1: a lot lately. Women still bear the brunt of domestic task, childcare, 95 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:43,840 Speaker 1: and even relationship cares, and they're taking care of the 96 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 1: man where they might not be doing the same thing. 97 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:50,279 Speaker 1: So maybe you're too tired to fight the patriarchy because 98 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 1: you got all this other stuff that is wearing you 99 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:59,000 Speaker 1: out Rich also asserts that relationships with other women, platonic 100 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:05,480 Speaker 1: or not, are often more rewarding. Obviously, some things have 101 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:08,800 Speaker 1: changed since nineteen eighty, though not as much as we 102 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 1: would like. It is not as scandalous to be a 103 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 1: single woman anymore, but it still kind of is. In 104 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:21,760 Speaker 1: examining this essay now, some point out that in some instances, 105 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 1: people are more accepting of two women getting married than 106 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 1: a straight woman choosing singlehood, and that you could argue 107 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 1: that compulsory heterosexuality should more accurately include coupling at the end, 108 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:39,720 Speaker 1: as in they want people to be together. Notably, some 109 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 1: women have spoken about how they actually are attracted to men, 110 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:46,680 Speaker 1: but the idea of marrying one makes them feel trapped, 111 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 1: so they don't even if it's what they want, but 112 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 1: they don't. Also, just to say it's okay when someone 113 00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 1: is fine to be alone, that's all right. You've said 114 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:05,440 Speaker 1: it before, and Jelly Luz brought this topic back into 115 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:08,800 Speaker 1: the zeitgeist in her twenty eighteen Tumblr post called Ami 116 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:14,040 Speaker 1: a Lesbian. In it, she says compulsory heterosexuality easily ties 117 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:18,160 Speaker 1: in with the misogyny that causes women sexualities and identities 118 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 1: to be defined by our relationships with men, and then 119 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:25,120 Speaker 1: later says, when you're trained from childhood to see romantic 120 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:28,920 Speaker 1: slash sexual relationships with men and only men as major 121 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:32,200 Speaker 1: like goals, how do you separate that from what you want? 122 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:34,719 Speaker 1: You can still find this online, by the way, and 123 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 1: it's broken down if you're questioning my lesbian this whole 124 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:45,320 Speaker 1: thing for you, And as I said, we have come 125 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 1: a long way, but this is still very much a thing. 126 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:52,959 Speaker 1: As I said, I see it everywhere and it was 127 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:54,959 Speaker 1: actually a fandom thing that brought this up for me. 128 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 1: It's clear a lot of folks don't know about it 129 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:03,319 Speaker 1: or think it doesn't eat. So preaching to the choir here. 130 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:06,040 Speaker 1: But if you feel like this is something you're struggling with, 131 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:10,880 Speaker 1: there are a couple things experts suggest. One is educating 132 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 1: yourself so you're already there by listening to this self reflection, 133 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:19,319 Speaker 1: putting yourself in a new environment, there is truth to 134 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:21,559 Speaker 1: the whole move out of a small town or go 135 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:25,079 Speaker 1: to a city or go to college this type thing, 136 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:32,400 Speaker 1: finding support through friends or family or groups, therapy, And 137 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:34,959 Speaker 1: on the flip side, if someone comes out to you, 138 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:40,839 Speaker 1: being supportive and avoiding seeing things like oh really, I 139 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:43,480 Speaker 1: never would have known. I don't think I never would 140 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:45,679 Speaker 1: have thought you were gay, because that's kind of reinforcing, like, 141 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:51,680 Speaker 1: oh you fit in so naturally in quotes. So yeah, 142 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 1: that again, much bigger topic. We're just gonna have to 143 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 1: come back to this. I did not intend to put 144 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:03,400 Speaker 1: myself in this situation, but here is a primer and listeners. 145 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:06,120 Speaker 1: If you have any thoughts about it, anything you would 146 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:09,319 Speaker 1: really like us to touch on when we revisit, please 147 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:11,680 Speaker 1: let us know. You can email us at Hello at 148 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 1: Stephfonnever Told You dot com. You can find us on 149 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:16,439 Speaker 1: blue Sky at move Stuff podcast, or on Instagram and 150 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 1: TikTok at Stuff one Never Told You. We're also on YouTube. 151 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:22,280 Speaker 1: We have some new merchandise that comp bureau Samantha tells 152 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:25,359 Speaker 1: me there's some kind of code to get a discount, 153 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:29,880 Speaker 1: so go check it out. And we have a book 154 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 1: you can get wherever you get your books. Thanks it's 155 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 1: always to our super producer Christina or executive producer Maya 156 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:37,280 Speaker 1: and a contributor Joey. Thank you and thanks to you 157 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:39,520 Speaker 1: for listening Stuff I Never Told You. Spection by Heart 158 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:41,240 Speaker 1: Radio for more podcasts or my Heart Radio. 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