1 00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:06,720 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. 2 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 2: I'm welcome stuff. I never told you protection of iHeartRadio. 3 00:00:18,680 --> 00:00:23,320 Speaker 2: And today we're talking about the groundbreaking, historic nineteen ninety 4 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:27,040 Speaker 2: six film The water Wellon Woman, written, directed, and edited 5 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:30,560 Speaker 2: and starring Cheryldonier, who, by the way, has done a 6 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 2: lot of great interviews, even some pretty recently. 7 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:35,440 Speaker 1: I just like, don't like the fight that you called 8 00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 1: it historic for nineteen ninety six, and I'm offended. I 9 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 1: want that to be noted. Okay, keep going. 10 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 2: It was historic and some of the things it did not. 11 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:48,519 Speaker 1: Sure, sure, sure, sure, sure, sure. 12 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:53,200 Speaker 2: Sure, Oh geez, all right, but yes, you can find 13 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:57,600 Speaker 2: a lot of good interviews with Cheryldonier recently done a 14 00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 2: lot with Criterion because this new has been in a 15 00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:06,120 Speaker 2: lot of ways inducted into the Criterion collection. It's a 16 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 2: dramedy rom com semi autobiography that follows Cheryl's attempts to 17 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:16,760 Speaker 2: uncover the history of Mammy, actress Fay Richards, who played 18 00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:21,399 Speaker 2: the Watermelon Woman, that's what she was credited as. This 19 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 2: was the first US film to be written by an 20 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:27,880 Speaker 2: out black lesbian, and it went on to win critical 21 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:31,680 Speaker 2: acclaim and so much more. It also got a lot 22 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:37,080 Speaker 2: of pushback that we'll talk about later. It's interesting because 23 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:41,479 Speaker 2: every every year when we're picking out movies for these 24 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 2: kind of events like Pride, we get the same sort 25 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:47,680 Speaker 2: of movies on the list. This one's been on our 26 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:49,440 Speaker 2: list like for years. 27 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:50,639 Speaker 1: Yeah for a minute. 28 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 2: Yes, And it's kind of sad how often it's like 29 00:01:55,600 --> 00:02:01,360 Speaker 2: a list hasn't expanded that much. But I was excited 30 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 2: to see this one. And it is really technically interesting 31 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:08,480 Speaker 2: because it switches between different styles of film, So you've 32 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 2: got sixteen millimeter and sort of like a grainy filming 33 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:18,120 Speaker 2: myself thing of the nineties, like two camcorder, you know. Yeah. 34 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:19,600 Speaker 2: On top of that, it has a bunch of other 35 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 2: aspects like photos that gave it a documentary feel. It's 36 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 2: been rescreened at colleges. It's the subject of discussion and 37 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 2: just really left a lasting impression. Also, Yes, it came 38 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:39,839 Speaker 2: out in the nineties. Glorious, glorious nineties transitions and fonts 39 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:46,239 Speaker 2: just truly. Yeah, and it did it made me nostalgic 40 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:48,800 Speaker 2: for video rental places. 41 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:51,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, that did make me laugh, which I feel like 42 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 1: was a center of a lot of nineties Yeah. Cool kids, 43 00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 1: you either worked out the videos, uh, rental place, a 44 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 1: CD or record shop. Yeah, one of those two. 45 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:06,799 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, h I loved it. In twenty twenty one, 46 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:09,640 Speaker 2: the film This film was chosen by the Library of 47 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:14,399 Speaker 2: Congress's National Film Registry. Her preservation for being quote cultury 48 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:20,240 Speaker 2: historically are esthetically significant. So I mean again, it made 49 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:24,280 Speaker 2: a lasting impression. That's a long time from nineteen ninety six, 50 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 2: I guess, all right. So here is the plot. Cheryl 51 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 2: is a black lesbian twenty something who works at a 52 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:39,080 Speaker 2: video rental store in Philadelphia with her friend Tamara, who 53 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 2: is also a black lesbian. As a film person, particularly 54 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:45,960 Speaker 2: interested in films from the thirties and forties, and especially 55 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:49,200 Speaker 2: how black women were portrayed and often uncredited in them, 56 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 2: Cheryl decides to make a documentary about a black actress 57 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 2: simply credited as the Watermelon Woman in the fictional film 58 00:03:56,960 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 2: Plantation Memories. She wants to find out out who this 59 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:04,320 Speaker 2: woman was and shed light on her story and maybe 60 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 2: learn more about herself alone way, and she keeps putting 61 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:08,200 Speaker 2: it off by the way, She's like, I've got to 62 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 2: work on this project, and that it never does. But 63 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 2: we finally get to see her working on it. She 64 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:16,960 Speaker 2: interviews an array of people, including. 65 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:20,360 Speaker 3: Her mom who was actually her mom Oh okay, yeah, 66 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:24,520 Speaker 3: until she learns the name of the actress is Faith Richardson, 67 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:29,479 Speaker 3: and it's implied to her that Faith or Faye, was 68 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 3: in a relationship with the white lesbian director of the 69 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:33,920 Speaker 3: film they worked on together. 70 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 2: And this really resonated with Cheryl for a lot of reasons, 71 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:42,599 Speaker 2: and she also starts dating a white lesbian customer of 72 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:45,320 Speaker 2: the video rental place that they both worked at, named Diana. 73 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 2: Another interview leads her to the Center for Lesbian Information 74 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 2: and Technology or CLIT, where she finds this autographed photo 75 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:58,600 Speaker 2: of Fay dedicated to someone named June Walker. Diana then 76 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 2: comes in and says she can up Cheryl with Martha Page, 77 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 2: the sister of Martha Page, the director that was presumably 78 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:10,359 Speaker 2: in a relationship with Faye. Meanwhile, Tamara accuses Cheryl of 79 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:13,560 Speaker 2: wishing to be white, denouncing her relationship with Diana, who 80 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:16,800 Speaker 2: she believes has a fetish for black women or black people. 81 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:22,919 Speaker 2: Cheryl is able to contact June Walker, a black woman, 82 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:26,280 Speaker 2: who informs Cheryl that they were in a relationship her 83 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:29,799 Speaker 2: and Faye for two decades, but now Faye is dead. 84 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:32,840 Speaker 2: Cheryl sets out to meet her in person, but June 85 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:36,800 Speaker 2: is hospitalized before she arrives. Cheryl's given a letter from 86 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:40,680 Speaker 2: June outlining the truth of her and Faye's relationship and 87 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 2: her hurt at the rumors that she was with Martha. 88 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 2: She pleads with Cheryl to tell the world the truth, 89 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:53,280 Speaker 2: and Cheryl, who didn't get to meet Martha, who is 90 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:57,480 Speaker 2: a strange from Tamara has broken up with Diana, completes 91 00:05:57,520 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 2: her documentary and is like, I have so much much 92 00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 2: more to do, and that's where it ends. It's very 93 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:08,400 Speaker 2: like it feels I've seen too many horror movies, found 94 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:09,360 Speaker 2: footage horror movies. 95 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:10,800 Speaker 1: I was thinking the same thing. I knew that was 96 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:11,279 Speaker 1: gonna come. 97 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:14,720 Speaker 2: Uh yeah, no, because I kept being like, but it 98 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:17,920 Speaker 2: has that kind of feel of like here's this clip, 99 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 2: and here's this photo, and here's I know, I should 100 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:27,960 Speaker 2: be thinking documentary, but I've found footage. Vibe was just 101 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:33,800 Speaker 2: too strong. But yeah, I mean, and it's got it's 102 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 2: just so nineties. It's such a product of its time, 103 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 2: Like the way it transitions from scenes. I think that's 104 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:45,240 Speaker 2: part of what had me thinking of it. Found footage. 105 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:48,400 Speaker 1: It did because I wasn't quite sure the back and 106 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 1: forth of like, this is not obviously documentary for real, 107 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:55,960 Speaker 1: because you're seeing her reactions about talking without and then 108 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:58,080 Speaker 1: her filming herself, so it's like it's both. 109 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:03,120 Speaker 2: It's a split yes, yes, and you know you have 110 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 2: her like kind of real life going alongside this project 111 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 2: that she's trying to do and you see the parallels 112 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 2: in that. But it is it would be like, just 113 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:22,320 Speaker 2: have a text on screen and again the font's amazing, 114 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:26,480 Speaker 2: and then it would move into another thing and I'm like, oh, okay, 115 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:27,400 Speaker 2: that scenms over. 116 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:31,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, a couple of buzzbuments where they would have one 117 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 1: sentence and then you'd move on. But wait, oh okay, okay. 118 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 2: It's very much very nineties and when it came out 119 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:47,200 Speaker 2: it did make a huge wave. It premiered at the 120 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:50,840 Speaker 2: Berlin International Film Festival in nineteen ninety six and it 121 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 2: won the Teddy Prize. It won many other awards at 122 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:58,880 Speaker 2: film festivals after that. However, this was the time of 123 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 2: a lot of strife around LGBTQ plus issues in the 124 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:06,760 Speaker 2: United States, and a Republican congressman called it possibly pornographic, 125 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 2: which yes, when it comes to controversy, this film's three 126 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:16,760 Speaker 2: hundred thousand dollars. Budget was financed in part by a 127 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:20,560 Speaker 2: grant distributed by the National Endowment of the Arts, alongside 128 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 2: donations and fundraisers. However, the NEA funding came under intent 129 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 2: scrutiny after the film came out because it does have 130 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:34,719 Speaker 2: a lesbian sex scene, and it was the funding structure 131 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 2: was restructured and people in Congress. Republicans in Congress were 132 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:42,680 Speaker 2: basically saying, yeah, this is the government paying for porn. 133 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 2: We cannot have this. And I have to say, when 134 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:48,600 Speaker 2: I read this, because I knew about this before I 135 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 2: watched it, I was like, really, And then I watched it, 136 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 2: I have to say, it was steamier than I thought 137 00:08:56,240 --> 00:08:56,720 Speaker 2: it would be. 138 00:08:57,200 --> 00:09:01,240 Speaker 1: It was ready for the nineties. I was shocked that 139 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:05,520 Speaker 1: allowed for all of that to be seen and I 140 00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 1: didn't notice did it have a rating? 141 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:11,000 Speaker 2: So the one I watched is the re release that 142 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 2: happened kind of kind of recently, and it was like 143 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 2: PG thirteen. 144 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 1: Okay, oh really I. 145 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 2: Think at the time, I don't know what it was 146 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:22,120 Speaker 2: at the time. 147 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:24,559 Speaker 1: All right, well, but I thing it was was it 148 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:26,520 Speaker 1: pre or when it was just PG and. 149 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 2: R like that was the o eighties that heppened? 150 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 1: Okay, okay, close. I was like, huh, very surprised it 151 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 1: was PG thirteen though, was still. 152 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:37,880 Speaker 2: I don't know if it was. What I was watching 153 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:40,280 Speaker 2: it on was using a different it's almost like a 154 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 2: TV system of rating instead of a movie system. Yeah, 155 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:45,960 Speaker 2: I got you, So I'm not sure, but it was 156 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:49,000 Speaker 2: like thirteen. I think it's a thirteen, and. 157 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 1: I was like, are we thirteen? 158 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:55,960 Speaker 2: Okay? Okay, well, but it was. I had to admit. 159 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:57,240 Speaker 2: It was steamier than I thought it would be, but 160 00:09:57,280 --> 00:09:58,479 Speaker 2: it wasn't anything. 161 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 1: Like, oh crazy obviously like any vagina. It was all 162 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:06,360 Speaker 1: like boobs, which is typically okay, but still like again 163 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 1: because you usually when it's women, right, like that's an 164 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:15,720 Speaker 1: automatic R if not X yeah and R yeah. 165 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 2: But I mean that was one of the ways it 166 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 2: was historic. Samantha is having this this sex scene in it, 167 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:29,080 Speaker 2: and it was I mean, yeah, they really got down 168 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:47,959 Speaker 2: to it. Okay. So here are some of the themes. 169 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:52,679 Speaker 2: I think it's a very great example of intersecting identity 170 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 2: because you have Cheryl who is a black lesbian and 171 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 2: kind of deal with all of what that means to 172 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:05,520 Speaker 2: her and what it means to people in her life 173 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:11,240 Speaker 2: and how that impacts her. So you do get a 174 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:16,400 Speaker 2: couple of instances throughout the movie. I feel like there's 175 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 2: a lot of instances of people being like too afraid 176 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:22,560 Speaker 2: to say, oh, she was gay, like she hung out 177 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:25,760 Speaker 2: of this place, and we know what that probably meant, 178 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:31,520 Speaker 2: but it's not. It doesn't feel like it's coming from 179 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:35,640 Speaker 2: a necessarily hateful place. But we do get like Martha's 180 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 2: sister saying, Oh, my sister, wasn't that kind of woman? 181 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:43,720 Speaker 2: Do not spread these rumors, even though it's been like 182 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 2: confirmed or printed in all of these other things, being 183 00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 2: that kind of woman being gay. So you have that, 184 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 2: and then you have the question of race, which comes 185 00:11:57,040 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 2: up in a lot of different ways in this. One 186 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:04,960 Speaker 2: of the interesting ways I thought was because Cheryl kind 187 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:12,200 Speaker 2: of does a history of black cinema, it's interesting to 188 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:16,840 Speaker 2: hear and to see how she's like, you know, these 189 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:23,160 Speaker 2: these movies that featured mostly black people were screened at 190 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:26,440 Speaker 2: these theaters, or they were screened before these movies that 191 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:29,920 Speaker 2: had largely white people or something. But how that kind 192 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:35,480 Speaker 2: of all faded away because people wanted that like Hollywood movie. 193 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:39,120 Speaker 2: But there used to be these theaters that were completely 194 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:45,400 Speaker 2: dedicated to that, or these clubs or things like that. 195 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:52,559 Speaker 2: That were just completely dedicated to that and they went away. 196 00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:54,440 Speaker 2: She goes to a bunch of them and they're all 197 00:12:54,440 --> 00:13:01,120 Speaker 2: closed up, like boarded up. So that's sort of gentrification 198 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:06,440 Speaker 2: and just loss of culture our spaces to have that 199 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:11,920 Speaker 2: culture in public. And then there's also a lot of 200 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:16,240 Speaker 2: instances where she runs into white people gatekeeping her kind 201 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 2: of like assuming she's illiterate. She goes to the library 202 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:24,080 Speaker 2: and the librarians like, did you do the most basic thing? 203 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 2: And they're like, yes, we did, yeah, kind of like 204 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:34,120 Speaker 2: keeping her from information when you're talking about at the clit, 205 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:38,680 Speaker 2: which is sort of a it's framed as like a 206 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 2: rules based thing, but it felt very like gatekeepy. She's 207 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:46,920 Speaker 2: accosted by the police at one point who were like, 208 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:52,480 Speaker 2: this can't be your camera, that's impossible, and that she 209 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:54,679 Speaker 2: does have a lot of like the movie starts where 210 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:57,839 Speaker 2: there her and her friend Tamera are filming at a 211 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:05,080 Speaker 2: wedding and she's setting up a shot and this white 212 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:10,199 Speaker 2: photographer steps directly front of her and she's like, what 213 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:15,120 Speaker 2: do you think I'm doing here? Like just being undermined 214 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:17,200 Speaker 2: and ignored, and this is her That's what she wants 215 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 2: to do. She wants to film. She wants to make 216 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:25,240 Speaker 2: these things. Another line that really stuck out to me 217 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:27,960 Speaker 2: was at the library when he said, check the black 218 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:33,120 Speaker 2: section in the library, which, as we know, a lot 219 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 2: of stuff has come about this recently about the Dewey 220 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:41,120 Speaker 2: decimal system and how it's set up. But he's just like, yeah, 221 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:48,200 Speaker 2: go over to that one section. And then you've got Diana, 222 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 2: who is a well off white lesbian. The white girl 223 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:59,760 Speaker 2: lesbian they meet at the rental store kind of hit 224 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:05,400 Speaker 2: it up, but she doesn't really defend Cheryl when that 225 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:10,400 Speaker 2: interviewee that she Martha's sister. She set up it's kind 226 00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:15,600 Speaker 2: of abusive towards Cheryl. She just says some things that 227 00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:19,760 Speaker 2: are off where you're like, I don't know about you, 228 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 2: and this causes a rift between Tamara and Cheryl. Tamara says, 229 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:30,480 Speaker 2: all I see is that once again you're going out 230 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 2: with a white girl who want to be black, and 231 00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:40,720 Speaker 2: they do get into a lot of like disagreements about this. 232 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:44,600 Speaker 2: Tamara also doesn't get why Cheryl would want to learn 233 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:47,760 Speaker 2: more about an actor who played into these played these 234 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:50,680 Speaker 2: racist characatures, but to sharel this is one of the 235 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 2: only ways she was seeing herself represented. But she also 236 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 2: just wanted to know who this person was. She saw 237 00:15:56,840 --> 00:15:59,680 Speaker 2: this movie and was like, who is this? I want 238 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:04,520 Speaker 2: to know? But it does also put our rift in 239 00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:09,760 Speaker 2: in their relationship. Tamara also has a bad habit of 240 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:16,120 Speaker 2: setting sharell up with not so great blind dates. Shall 241 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 2: we say so that it hm. I knew we were 242 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 2: talking about this before, but Samantha has the real secondhand 243 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:32,120 Speaker 2: embarrassment thing. And I was watching that scene with the 244 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:34,680 Speaker 2: karaoke at the beginning and I was like, Oh, Smith's 245 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:35,280 Speaker 2: not gonna lie. 246 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:39,680 Speaker 1: No, I'm not happy, I'm not gonna lie in the 247 00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:44,040 Speaker 1: nineties acting and this was I think our first film, right, 248 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 1: so like of course she didn't have a budget and 249 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:48,960 Speaker 1: all these things that she was bringing people in, but 250 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 1: yeah it did. I was like, Oh, this entire thing 251 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 1: is making me cringe so hard and every way, but 252 00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 1: I love that it is represented here. For sure, I wonder, 253 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:02,800 Speaker 1: I don't know, I've sure we could probably find a 254 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:05,480 Speaker 1: interview with her talking about what would change today if 255 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:10,119 Speaker 1: they could remake that movie, because everything in it it 256 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 1: still kind of stands, you know the fact that you know, 257 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:16,200 Speaker 1: the erasure and trying to hunt things and people of color, 258 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 1: especially black women in this industry is hard to find today, 259 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:24,920 Speaker 1: so it would be probably the same look with better acting, 260 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:28,840 Speaker 1: not necessarily from her, but like in general, like that 261 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:31,639 Speaker 1: the one as that were supposed to be like funny lines. 262 00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:33,520 Speaker 1: It took me a second because I was like, why 263 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:38,440 Speaker 1: were they trying? It was, Oh, that's supposed to be funny, 264 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 1: you know. I'm thinking about the dude who played the 265 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:44,639 Speaker 1: boss at the videotape store like oftentimes, and then the 266 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:48,520 Speaker 1: white girl who played the coworker that scene where she 267 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:52,399 Speaker 1: walks in to hit on the black woman, which was like, 268 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:55,640 Speaker 1: h at clit. It looked like I thought they were 269 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:58,920 Speaker 1: actually trying to have her act like I thought that 270 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 1: this was supposed to be a set up for her documentary, 271 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:04,160 Speaker 1: and then I realized, oh, no, this is supposed to okay, 272 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 1: never mind like moments like that when I was like, 273 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:10,320 Speaker 1: what's what is this? But all that to say is 274 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 1: I think it's such an amazing representation. There was a 275 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:17,800 Speaker 1: lot of awkward moments. The singing. It was so awkward 276 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:20,120 Speaker 1: that I can't get past the awkward part to make 277 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:23,000 Speaker 1: it to be funny. Because the fact that her friends 278 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:25,720 Speaker 1: were so ready the friends of the person that was 279 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:28,120 Speaker 1: being set up were so ready to like root for her, 280 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:35,240 Speaker 1: and I was like, oh no, boy, yeah, this film 281 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:37,680 Speaker 1: was really interesting throwing back to the nineties for real. 282 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, oh yeah, right, Well they did cut away 283 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:43,800 Speaker 2: before she finished the song, so not. 284 00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:46,320 Speaker 1: Before the high note though, not before the high. 285 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:52,000 Speaker 2: Note, but before she finished that song. Uh, but yeah, 286 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:55,879 Speaker 2: that was that was pretty early on too. Yeah, it 287 00:18:55,960 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 2: was quickly on, yes, But I do think that was 288 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:08,240 Speaker 2: one thing that was really interesting is seeing the complexity 289 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:12,479 Speaker 2: of relationships with all these identities in mind and having 290 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:19,919 Speaker 2: these disagreements and trying to work through them because no 291 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:23,359 Speaker 2: community is a monolith. We've talked about that all the time. 292 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:29,159 Speaker 2: So I thought that was really handled well of just 293 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:35,439 Speaker 2: the kind of when you rub against someone who you 294 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:39,240 Speaker 2: are friends with, or who you're interested in, or all 295 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:42,920 Speaker 2: of those things. But this does bring us to another 296 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:47,520 Speaker 2: big theme, which is something you mentioned history and representation, 297 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:51,000 Speaker 2: and this is something we've talked about at length on 298 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:56,240 Speaker 2: this show, is the importance of documenting history, the importance 299 00:19:56,240 --> 00:20:01,520 Speaker 2: of who's documenting it. We've just on so many books 300 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:04,280 Speaker 2: or movies that are about this kind of very thing, 301 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:09,639 Speaker 2: and that's in part because of things like a rasuer 302 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:15,280 Speaker 2: purposeful erasure. This movie was dedicated to black actresses who 303 00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:19,480 Speaker 2: played this Mammy role, specifically Eat Butterfly McQueen, Hattie McDaniel, 304 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:23,680 Speaker 2: and Louise Beavers and others who were often forgotten are 305 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:27,320 Speaker 2: not credited. Fay Richards is fictional, and at the end 306 00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:32,280 Speaker 2: it says like, sometimes your story isn't there, so you 307 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:36,240 Speaker 2: make one up. But as a stand in for them, 308 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:40,720 Speaker 2: they couldn't afford the archival footage. But also it kind 309 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:43,760 Speaker 2: of gives the whole thing more breathing room. Fay used 310 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:47,520 Speaker 2: to sing in Philadelphia lesbian ballrooms as well, and that's 311 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:53,680 Speaker 2: sort of how she Cheryl found her from people who 312 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 2: remembered her from there. The director was inspired to make 313 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:02,560 Speaker 2: the movie after taking an African American film class and 314 00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 2: learning that most black women from the thirties and forties 315 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:08,679 Speaker 2: were uncredited. I also thought it was interesting that they 316 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:13,040 Speaker 2: have this whole scene where they go to see I 317 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:15,640 Speaker 2: think it's a friend or like an uncle of Tamaraz 318 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:21,280 Speaker 2: and he's like kind of notoriously not great with women, right, 319 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:24,919 Speaker 2: and he's like, Oh, I don't know who you were 320 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:37,560 Speaker 2: talking about. I don't know what that is. This also 321 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:40,840 Speaker 2: gave me a chance to learn about Camille Anna Pagnia, 322 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:45,280 Speaker 2: who I didn't know but is a feminist who is 323 00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:53,040 Speaker 2: extremely controversial, and I was looking up her thoughts and 324 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:58,560 Speaker 2: I was like, oh, dear, But just so Cheryl interviews 325 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:03,760 Speaker 2: her and who it still exists as a real feminist, 326 00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:08,000 Speaker 2: and she's like, I don't think we're reading too much 327 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:11,520 Speaker 2: into this mammy stereotype. We're doing all the like we're 328 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:15,719 Speaker 2: thinking too much about this or whatever. She basically thinks 329 00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:22,160 Speaker 2: like feminism began to stalin esque, but she's got some 330 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:26,360 Speaker 2: nobody's perfect, but she's got some problematic. 331 00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:29,280 Speaker 1: Views, like she she's not terf is she is she? 332 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 2: No, she identifies, at least the brief search that I did, 333 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:44,359 Speaker 2: as transgender. But she also doesn't think she made it 334 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:46,560 Speaker 2: sound like it's not that big of a deal to her. 335 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:49,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I feel like that may be part of 336 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:51,680 Speaker 1: the whole entirety of the film is the going back 337 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:54,719 Speaker 1: and forth. And I've seen this with like you know, 338 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:57,199 Speaker 1: conversations and race and all that. We wish everything was 339 00:22:57,240 --> 00:22:59,800 Speaker 1: so normalized that it wouldn't have to be a thing. 340 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:02,679 Speaker 1: It doesn't. No one wants to characterize the thing it's 341 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:05,600 Speaker 1: a big significant deal or have to like call yourself 342 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:07,919 Speaker 1: trans you could just be a woman, you know, you 343 00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:10,679 Speaker 1: don't have to call yourself, you know, the Asian actor, 344 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:13,399 Speaker 1: you can just be an actor, Like all these different conversations, 345 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:15,119 Speaker 1: And I think this is a part of that play 346 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:18,399 Speaker 1: in because it feels like Cheryl goes back and forth 347 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:20,680 Speaker 1: and like she's attracted to who she's attracted to, why 348 00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:23,280 Speaker 1: can't she be? And on one side she has people 349 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 1: like you're you're attracted to a white woman who fetish 350 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:29,159 Speaker 1: does a women or fletchhes black women specifically, And she's like, 351 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:30,800 Speaker 1: but I really like her and we get along, and 352 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:32,480 Speaker 1: then you come to the flip side that they're not wrong, 353 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 1: like the girlfriends are talking about having black boyfriends and 354 00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:37,479 Speaker 1: black boyfriends and black boyfriends and black girlfriends, and you 355 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:40,840 Speaker 1: see her with a black woman obviously in something in 356 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:43,440 Speaker 1: one and in another part, so like it does seem 357 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:45,600 Speaker 1: that they're right, but this back and forth like why 358 00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:47,520 Speaker 1: can't it be just that? 359 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:48,680 Speaker 2: Yeah? 360 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:52,240 Speaker 1: And I think that's that conversation that this person which 361 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:53,960 Speaker 1: I didn't realize she was a significant character, that I 362 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:55,479 Speaker 1: didn't realize who she was at all. I was like, oh, 363 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:57,840 Speaker 1: I thought she was just the fiction person brought into 364 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 1: this as well. I wonder if that's her true commentary. 365 00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:05,560 Speaker 2: I so I the first time I was reading about it, 366 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:08,120 Speaker 2: they made it sound like she was playing into it, okay. 367 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:12,280 Speaker 2: But then the second time, but then I looked her up, yeah, 368 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 2: and I was like, it doesn't this sounds like something 369 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:16,119 Speaker 2: she would have said. 370 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:20,120 Speaker 1: Because like, obviously Fay was a character and they're kind 371 00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:21,879 Speaker 1: of talking about that references like have you ever heard 372 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:24,320 Speaker 1: of this woman? And she's like no, blah blah blah. 373 00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 1: But this over the top stereotype is everything turns into 374 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:32,919 Speaker 1: that conversation that most white liberals or white feminists especially 375 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:34,280 Speaker 1: would say. It would be like why does it have 376 00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:36,879 Speaker 1: to be about race? And you're like, ugh, that is 377 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:40,280 Speaker 1: that question, but it does because you are racist, Like 378 00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:44,320 Speaker 1: these are those comments, so like these things are inherently 379 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:47,240 Speaker 1: bad and systemically there is racism, so we have to 380 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:50,480 Speaker 1: talk about race, but yes, we get it. We would 381 00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:52,160 Speaker 1: love to be like why does it have to be 382 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:55,080 Speaker 1: but a woman like, yes we do, but we know 383 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:58,159 Speaker 1: because that is held up against us. We have to 384 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:00,639 Speaker 1: talk about the fact that we are women, you know, 385 00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:03,640 Speaker 1: all these different things, and it feels very like it 386 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:07,760 Speaker 1: feels like a push against that white feminist, especially white 387 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:12,840 Speaker 1: lesbian feminists in that arc, that Clitt organization the entire time. 388 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:14,760 Speaker 1: And I know this was supposed to be a funny 389 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:18,200 Speaker 1: moment because the girls like the constantly going run by volunteers. 390 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:21,520 Speaker 1: It's a nonprofit by volunteers. We'll get to you in 391 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:24,440 Speaker 1: six months, like this type of conversation, and as she's 392 00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:26,760 Speaker 1: trying to do research, she's like, don't take pictures like 393 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:30,320 Speaker 1: so like on top of her for every little thing 394 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 1: as well, but at the same time braggy about the 395 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:34,199 Speaker 1: fact that I don't make any money off of this. 396 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 1: I'm cool. Like that kind of scenario is very interesting 397 00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 1: in that conversation and also in having that forethought about 398 00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:48,159 Speaker 1: the fact that many black women weren't weren't known or 399 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:50,399 Speaker 1: their name wasn't public out there when it came to 400 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:54,639 Speaker 1: white art. But in actuality, this Fay was a huge 401 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:57,680 Speaker 1: star in the black film world. She was started in 402 00:25:57,880 --> 00:25:59,879 Speaker 1: many of films and they were trying to push her 403 00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:03,200 Speaker 1: to be the big star of most films. They had 404 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:05,480 Speaker 1: that one Faith film where I guess you have that 405 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:09,040 Speaker 1: either younger daughter or sibling who wants to be white, 406 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:12,360 Speaker 1: and that go back and forth in face character being 407 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:13,679 Speaker 1: like why do you have to be Why can't you 408 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:16,199 Speaker 1: be who you are? All these things like there's so 409 00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:20,520 Speaker 1: much like on in this that was so crammed packed 410 00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:23,960 Speaker 1: that I feel like we can we could talk forever 411 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:26,760 Speaker 1: about and dissect one portion of that because it had 412 00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:29,720 Speaker 1: that level of like, once again we had this very famous, 413 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:33,320 Speaker 1: supposedly not famous actress but actually she is. And the 414 00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:35,640 Speaker 1: only reason they've found her is because she went through 415 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:41,520 Speaker 1: black archives which were scattered away. And then the whole 416 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:44,479 Speaker 1: feminist clet organization talking about, well, we did get some money, 417 00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:46,480 Speaker 1: but it's only for this, and then they only have 418 00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:51,680 Speaker 1: small box and it's taking them extra long to get 419 00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:54,000 Speaker 1: to this point or even like they're not paying attention 420 00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:56,879 Speaker 1: to it even though they even may have gotten the funding. 421 00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:01,640 Speaker 1: There's again this whole broad stroke things happening, that back 422 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:04,960 Speaker 1: and forth of like, yes it exists, but I couldn't 423 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:07,040 Speaker 1: find it, and when I found it, I found slightly 424 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:10,080 Speaker 1: she actually was well known. They just didn't think that 425 00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:12,760 Speaker 1: she was well known because of racure. This isn't this 426 00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:17,919 Speaker 1: And then also like from what I can gather, you 427 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:22,280 Speaker 1: can tell me what you think. Cheryl was not necessarily 428 00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:26,560 Speaker 1: impressed but intrigued by the idea that Martha and Fay 429 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:29,080 Speaker 1: were together and felt like maybe it was love because 430 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:32,320 Speaker 1: all the pictures looked really like telling and loving and kind. 431 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:34,680 Speaker 1: But then we have June coming in and be like, no, 432 00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:37,359 Speaker 1: that was something that she was very ashamed of, and like, 433 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:40,160 Speaker 1: whose shame is this? Is this Another conversation was this 434 00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:43,120 Speaker 1: is a parallel as it's supposed to be to Cheryl's 435 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:47,919 Speaker 1: current life with her friends or is this you know 436 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:49,960 Speaker 1: there's so many like back and forth in that. 437 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:55,520 Speaker 2: Yes, And that was a theme that I had to 438 00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:57,720 Speaker 2: bring up, is that you do get kind of get 439 00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:00,960 Speaker 2: like a blurring of fay story in Cheryl's story because 440 00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:07,879 Speaker 2: you see similar things. Cheryl starts the film being very 441 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:11,000 Speaker 2: like she tries to say she's a filmmaker and then 442 00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:13,960 Speaker 2: stops and I was like, well, not really a filmmaker, 443 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:16,280 Speaker 2: but I do. I do. I work at a rental 444 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:19,159 Speaker 2: store and around movies. Like she just kind of is 445 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:22,440 Speaker 2: not secure in what she does. But by the end 446 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:27,000 Speaker 2: that's not the case anymore. And you also have her 447 00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:33,399 Speaker 2: dating Diana, this white woman, and having these questions about it, 448 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:37,679 Speaker 2: these arguments with her friends about it, and so it 449 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 2: is interesting to see the commonalities that they have and 450 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:45,560 Speaker 2: I think she feels a real connection to face story 451 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:51,280 Speaker 2: and she's really motivated to tell it. And when she 452 00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:56,280 Speaker 2: does finally contact June, who it was like, No, I've 453 00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:59,560 Speaker 2: been with Fay for twenty years until she died. This 454 00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:03,480 Speaker 2: was a why she was ashamed of it? Are she 455 00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:05,920 Speaker 2: kind of it? To me? It kind of sounds like 456 00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 2: she had to do. 457 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:11,520 Speaker 1: It exploitation seemed to be yeah. 458 00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:14,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. So she had to sort of date her 459 00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:21,040 Speaker 2: to get into movies. And she tells Cheryl in a note, 460 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:26,280 Speaker 2: you know, please tell this history, Please tell the truth. 461 00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:30,959 Speaker 2: This is what needs to be out there, and she, 462 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:35,120 Speaker 2: as far as we know, never gets to meet June, 463 00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:41,200 Speaker 2: just has this letter. But it is kind of that 464 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,760 Speaker 2: idea that we've been talking about a lot, I feel 465 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:49,560 Speaker 2: like lately, of learning the full truth of someone. Because 466 00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:53,160 Speaker 2: all she had was this name, the Watermelon Woman. She 467 00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:55,360 Speaker 2: was interviewing people on the street. No one knew who 468 00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:58,760 Speaker 2: it was. She was like going to experts and a 469 00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:00,480 Speaker 2: lot of them were like, I don't know who that is. 470 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:08,920 Speaker 2: And then through her research she found this whole person 471 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:13,440 Speaker 2: whose story had been told in this one way that 472 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:17,840 Speaker 2: was incorrect. And so I think that that's a really 473 00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:22,680 Speaker 2: powerful thing. But Also alongside that, you have Cheryl's own 474 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:26,400 Speaker 2: story of coming into yourself and figuring yourself out, because 475 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:30,080 Speaker 2: she has this whole conversation where she's like, you know what, 476 00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:36,760 Speaker 2: I'm still figuring things out, but she does settle into 477 00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:42,360 Speaker 2: the idea of I am a storyteller filmmaker, and I 478 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:46,000 Speaker 2: have so much more to do. And here's a quote. 479 00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:49,560 Speaker 2: Most importantly, what I understand is that I'm going to 480 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:52,360 Speaker 2: be the one who says I'm a black lesbian filmmaker 481 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:54,840 Speaker 2: who's just beginning, but I'm going to say a lot 482 00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:58,560 Speaker 2: more and have a lot more work to do. So 483 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:01,800 Speaker 2: she started the movie where they were kind of ribbing 484 00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:04,080 Speaker 2: her about you you always say you're going to work 485 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:06,760 Speaker 2: on this project. I mean, you never do, and then 486 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:12,000 Speaker 2: she did and she made it, and now she is 487 00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:13,840 Speaker 2: going to do other things right. 488 00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:17,480 Speaker 1: They're also is like the friendship because she talks about 489 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:19,080 Speaker 1: lots of friendships. At the end of it, she's like, 490 00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 1: I lost this, I lost this, I lost this, but 491 00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:24,440 Speaker 1: I got this. Maybe we'll fix this. There's this conversation 492 00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:27,479 Speaker 1: and I don't know, I think and I do know 493 00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:33,120 Speaker 1: many respect to like her dabbling into filmed, her wanting 494 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:37,000 Speaker 1: to do want dating, Diane all these things, which by 495 00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:39,200 Speaker 1: the way, Tamrell was right there being like, yeah, you 496 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:41,080 Speaker 1: should go after her. Why don't you go doctor her 497 00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:42,760 Speaker 1: like at the very beginning, So it was really odd 498 00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:46,120 Speaker 1: that she flipped real quick. Maybe that was the girlfriend's influence, 499 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:47,680 Speaker 1: because the girlfriend was the one that really had the 500 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:49,320 Speaker 1: big problem with her and then kind of built up. 501 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:53,760 Speaker 1: But it seemed like there was including the fact that 502 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 1: June when you were when you see Cheryl talking to 503 00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:58,720 Speaker 1: June on the phone and she was like it almost 504 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,200 Speaker 1: is questioning how black are you? What type of black 505 00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:03,800 Speaker 1: person are you? Can you prove? How do you make 506 00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:07,520 Speaker 1: your colors? You know, asking that as well as like 507 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:11,200 Speaker 1: that conversation in which not only are they saying maybe 508 00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:13,400 Speaker 1: Diana just has a fetish with trying to be white. 509 00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:15,600 Speaker 1: You're trying to do these things. That is too much, 510 00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:19,680 Speaker 1: You're too overachieving. Like the friend was not nice. I 511 00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:21,720 Speaker 1: will say Camra was not nice. She was not very 512 00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:24,120 Speaker 1: supportive in a lot of that. Of course, both of 513 00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:27,400 Speaker 1: them had a back and forth, but like it felt 514 00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:29,280 Speaker 1: kind of like maybe that was a part of the 515 00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:32,040 Speaker 1: journey as well. Again that she came out with like 516 00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:35,520 Speaker 1: I am black and I am a black queer filmmaker. 517 00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:37,680 Speaker 1: I'm a lesbian filmmaker, so there doesn't need to be 518 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:39,880 Speaker 1: this question. I don't understand why I feel like I 519 00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:42,400 Speaker 1: have to be questioned. But again, the back and forth 520 00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:44,560 Speaker 1: of being like, yeah, but Diana did turn out to 521 00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:48,400 Speaker 1: be exactly what they thought she was in one essence, 522 00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:52,920 Speaker 1: especially when you see the interaction between the sister of 523 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:56,000 Speaker 1: Martha and the three of them, because at the end 524 00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:59,320 Speaker 1: you have, oh, a black woman who obviously is a 525 00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:01,600 Speaker 1: housekeeper there. But the way that set up came in, 526 00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:08,040 Speaker 1: I was like, oh, that was very purposeful in that 527 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:10,880 Speaker 1: because part of the question was with Martha. Not only 528 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:14,920 Speaker 1: was she offended by the idea that she was queer 529 00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:16,640 Speaker 1: in any way, that she was a lesbian, but she 530 00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:18,280 Speaker 1: was really offended at the idea that she would be 531 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:21,560 Speaker 1: with a black woman. You know it kind of that's 532 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:25,000 Speaker 1: kind of the implication in that conversation, and so like 533 00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:29,000 Speaker 1: there's a whole level of questioning her search in this 534 00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:31,480 Speaker 1: as well, which I'm sure again as you were saying, 535 00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:34,440 Speaker 1: is that question that they had in trying to appease 536 00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:38,720 Speaker 1: white people to make it to finally being herself from 537 00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:41,600 Speaker 1: the film world. So there's there's that whole back and 538 00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:45,239 Speaker 1: forth in that as well a lot of thoughts. It's 539 00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:47,480 Speaker 1: definitely a coming of age or coming into your own. 540 00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:53,480 Speaker 2: Yes, yes it is. And I love that it's still 541 00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:59,280 Speaker 2: being screened at colleges. I love that Ryl Dunie is 542 00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:03,360 Speaker 2: still doing these interviews. But yeah, I mean, I would 543 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:06,840 Speaker 2: love listeners from who've never seen it, who were younger. 544 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:16,920 Speaker 2: Let us know, the nineties, the nineties, the nineties, it 545 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:19,440 Speaker 2: was pretty great. Oh my gosh. 546 00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:21,680 Speaker 1: Oh yeah. It took me a good twenty minute to 547 00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:23,359 Speaker 1: get comfortable and then I was like, oh my god, 548 00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:24,400 Speaker 1: this is all awkward. 549 00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:30,600 Speaker 2: Oh and the technology, I didn't even talk about that, 550 00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:35,399 Speaker 2: but hmm, it's good. It's all there for you if 551 00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:36,120 Speaker 2: you would like it. 552 00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:38,719 Speaker 1: If you need a time machine to know what historically, 553 00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:42,759 Speaker 1: and he says happened in the nineties, go check it out. 554 00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:43,799 Speaker 1: You know. 555 00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:46,920 Speaker 2: That is a good one thing I did want to 556 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:49,920 Speaker 2: bring up that kind of annoyed me. It is historic 557 00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:54,600 Speaker 2: because this was the first time an out black lesbian 558 00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:58,799 Speaker 2: woman and the US directed a movie. But I did 559 00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:03,160 Speaker 2: get kind of annoyed about how many reviews I found 560 00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:05,040 Speaker 2: of it were like, it's a niche within a niche 561 00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:06,719 Speaker 2: within a niche, and I'm like, it really shouldn't be. 562 00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:10,319 Speaker 2: I feel like there's one niche maybe, but the rest 563 00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:10,920 Speaker 2: of it should be. 564 00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:16,279 Speaker 1: It's an independent film, right, and it's a niche for 565 00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:18,200 Speaker 1: the times, but it shouldn't be today. 566 00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:21,879 Speaker 2: No, Like I because I get I think what they 567 00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:24,840 Speaker 2: meant was, you know, we don't get a lot of 568 00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:27,080 Speaker 2: movies like this, That is true. I don't think that 569 00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:31,239 Speaker 2: means it's a niche, right, I think that's a different problem. 570 00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:32,959 Speaker 1: But uh. 571 00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:38,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm glad. I'm glad we finally watched. It's been 572 00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:39,440 Speaker 2: on our list for years. 573 00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:42,200 Speaker 1: It has it has. We bought it up and we're like, oh, 574 00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:47,960 Speaker 1: well wait, because we couldn't find it it. 575 00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:53,160 Speaker 2: I did too, I did too, But I recommend it. 576 00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:58,840 Speaker 2: I think uh it obviously has a lot of salient 577 00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:04,520 Speaker 2: conversations that are still relevant today. But all right, listeners, 578 00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:07,839 Speaker 2: if you have any thoughts about this movie or what 579 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:10,520 Speaker 2: should be our next movie, please let us know. You 580 00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:13,120 Speaker 2: can email us at Hello at Steffaniefertoldo dot com. You 581 00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:15,719 Speaker 2: can find us on Blue Scott Momster podcast on Instagram 582 00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:18,359 Speaker 2: and TikTok at stuff I Never Told You for us 583 00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:20,040 Speaker 2: on YouTube, and we have a book you can get 584 00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:22,319 Speaker 2: wherever you get your books. Thanks as always to our 585 00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:25,200 Speaker 2: super Duce Christina, executive Prus Maya, and a contribuer Joey. 586 00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:28,120 Speaker 2: Thank you and thanks to you for listening Steffan Never 587 00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:29,920 Speaker 2: Told You's Booktion of by Heart Radio. For more podcasts 588 00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:31,359 Speaker 2: on my Heart Radio, you can check out the art 589 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:33,720 Speaker 2: Radio app Apple Podcasts, or we listen to your favorite 590 00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:34,439 Speaker 2: shows