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Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey everyone, I'm wishing you a happy and peaceful

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Speaker 1: Thanksgiving week. It's my favorite holiday of the year, and

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Speaker 1: I like taking a moment to reflect on all that

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Speaker 1: I'm grateful for. So many of the conversations I've had

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Speaker 1: on the show have changed me for the better. One

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Speaker 1: of these was with psychologist Kristin Neff, who's an expert

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Speaker 1: on the science of self compassion. I had a lot

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Speaker 1: of misconceptions about self compassion going into this interview, like

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Speaker 1: that it's self indulgent, or it's a way of letting

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Speaker 1: ourselves off the hook for stuff we should really be

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Speaker 1: taking accountability for. As you'll hear, I shared this skepticism

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Speaker 1: with Kristin, and she told me about some fascinating research

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Speaker 1: that challenged many of my assumptions. We'll be back next

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Speaker 1: week with a new episode, but until then, I hope

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Speaker 1: you enjoyed this conversation and that it helps you be

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Speaker 1: a bit kinder to yourself. And as always, I'd love

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Speaker 1: to hear your thoughts on the conversation. I'm on Instagram

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Speaker 1: at doctor Maya Schunker.

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Speaker 2: Self compassion in the simplest form is just treating yourself

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Speaker 2: with the same warmth, kindness, care concern that you would

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Speaker 2: naturally show to a friend you cared about, So it's

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Speaker 2: really nothing unusual. It's just that we're much more used

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Speaker 2: to giving compassion to friends than we are to ourselves.

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Speaker 1: Psychologist Kristin Neff is a pioneer in the study of

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Speaker 1: self compassion, and she says the first step towards cultivating

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Speaker 1: it is to ask ourselves this one question.

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Speaker 2: The quintessential self compassion Q question is what do I

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Speaker 2: need right now? What do I need to learn? What

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Speaker 2: do I need to be there for myself right now?

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Speaker 2: What do I need? Do I need to give some help?

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Speaker 2: Do I need a bath? Wisdom is what tells you

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Speaker 2: the answer, but being willing to ask the question is key,

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Speaker 2: because what you're saying is my needs count I'm worthy

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Speaker 2: of care and support.

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Speaker 1: On today's episode, we learn about the science of self compassion,

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Speaker 1: including strategies you can use to be kinder to yourself.

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Speaker 1: I'm maya Shunker and this is a slight change of plans,

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Speaker 1: a show about who we are and who we become

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Speaker 1: in the face of a big change. Kristin Neff has

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Speaker 1: written several books, including Self Compassion, The Proven Power of

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Speaker 1: Being Kind to Yourself, She also runs workshops that teach

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Speaker 1: people self compassion skills that they can use in their

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Speaker 1: daily lives. Even though it seems like these skills should

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Speaker 1: come to us pretty naturally, many of us struggle with

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Speaker 1: being kind to ourselves. We often find it easier to

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Speaker 1: be kind towards others. So I started our conversation by

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Speaker 1: asking Kristen why, Well, there's a lot.

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Speaker 2: Of reasons actually when we shouldn't beat ourselves up for

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Speaker 2: beating ourselves up, because they are cultural and evolutionary reasons.

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Speaker 2: So cultural reasons are that we aren't told it's good

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Speaker 2: to be self compassionate. We're raised to be self sacrificing,

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Speaker 2: and that we should almost be compassionate to others. And

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Speaker 2: there's a lot of miss that get in the way

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Speaker 2: of self compassion that we can talk about in a moment.

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Speaker 2: But there's also an important evolutionary element. So the system

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Speaker 2: that evolved to keep ourselves safe is a threat defense system,

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Speaker 2: right fight or freeze. So when we feel threatened, we

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Speaker 2: fight ourselves with criticism, hoping we'll get ourselves in shape

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Speaker 2: and be safe, or we flee into a sense of

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Speaker 2: shame and isolation and get stuck. On the other hand,

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Speaker 2: we do have a safety system for others, which is

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Speaker 2: called the care system, and that system evolved primarily for

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Speaker 2: our offspring and for our group members. And so in

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Speaker 2: order to keep our offspring safe, for our group safe,

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Speaker 2: we give compassion and support and kindness to those people

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Speaker 2: who care about who are suffering. So we have to

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Speaker 2: kind of do a little hack. It's actually more natural

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Speaker 2: to be self critical when we're threatened in some way

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Speaker 2: than it is to be self compassionate.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: You know, when your friend loses their job, you aren't

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Speaker 2: personally threatened, so you go into care mode. When you

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Speaker 2: lose your job, you're personally threatened, so you go into fight,

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Speaker 2: flight or freeze mode. And so that's a pretty heavy

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Speaker 2: brain difference that we've got to you know, work. Luckily,

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Speaker 2: it can be done. But it's actually more natural to

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Speaker 2: be compassionate to others than ourselves.

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Speaker 1: To make sure I understand that you're saying that it's

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Speaker 1: actually the feeling of threat that's ignited by our own

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Speaker 1: pain and suffering that leads us to withhold compassion from

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Speaker 1: ourselves because we think we need to act on that. Yes,

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Speaker 1: we need to get this right, We need to solve

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Speaker 1: this problem.

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Speaker 2: Exactly, and so we're using the kind of our reptilian brain,

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Speaker 2: the older brain to think of just immediately, either you know,

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Speaker 2: we beat ourselves up. I'll criticize myself before other people do.

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Speaker 2: Or again we just try to whip ourselves into shape

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Speaker 2: with the most immediate way we know how, or again

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Speaker 2: we go into shame mode, which is also a safety behavior,

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Speaker 2: or rumination is also a safety behavior. Maybe if I

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Speaker 2: just don't move or think about it five hundred times

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Speaker 2: and problem will go away.

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Speaker 1: I have no idea what you're talking about, Kristin. I've

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Speaker 1: never experienced this. It's more like a thousand times.

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Speaker 2: But you know, the care mode is also natural, right,

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Speaker 2: as you know, even like young children can feel carrying

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Speaker 2: toward others. It's a completely natural system. It's just more

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Speaker 2: often triggered by others people we care about. So we

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Speaker 2: do have to make a switch and start treating ourselves

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Speaker 2: like we would treat someone else we cared about.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I love this framing because I think

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Speaker 1: it shows Look, there are some things that come very

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Speaker 1: naturally to us, and there are other things that require

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Speaker 1: a lot of deliberate cognitive effort in order to inspire

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Speaker 1: and cultivate within ourselves, and it seems like self compassion

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Speaker 1: is one of those things.

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Speaker 2: The effort needs to be made to remember to do

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Speaker 2: it and also to give ourselves permission to do it,

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Speaker 2: and the permission is very important, especially when our culture

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Speaker 2: has told us that it's selfish to be kind to

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Speaker 2: ourselves and that it's you know, will be lazy if

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Speaker 2: we do, or will become self indulgent. So actually the

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Speaker 2: act of being self compassionate is easeful. It actually is

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Speaker 2: a lot easier, if you think about it, to be

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Speaker 2: kind to yourself than all the pain and effort that

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Speaker 2: comes with criticizing yourself and cutting yourself down. This actually

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Speaker 2: makes things flow better, more naturally. But remembering to do

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Speaker 2: so is the bit that takes a little bit of

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Speaker 2: practice and permission.

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Speaker 1: Okay, that's really helpful and very clarifying. I love that. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So you know, Kristin, I will confess that when I

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Speaker 1: first encountered this work years ago, I was a little skeptical.

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Speaker 1: And to be clear, it's not because I don't need

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Speaker 1: more self compassion. I've always been an intensely self critical person.

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Speaker 1: It's more that I just have had specific concerns and

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Speaker 1: I'm wondering if right now we can engage in a

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Speaker 1: quick mythbusting session in case there are listeners out there

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Speaker 1: who share some of the same skepticism I used to have.

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Speaker 1: I want to bring them on this journey with me

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Speaker 1: towards really embracing the research and really understanding the value.

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Speaker 1: So one concern that I've had is that it seems

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Speaker 1: like promoting self compassion can cause people to let themselves

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Speaker 1: off the hook for their bad behaviors. And you know,

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Speaker 1: I look around and I see a lot of people

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Speaker 1: who are not taking accountability for their actions. Right, it

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Speaker 1: seems like they could benefit from a bit more internal

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Speaker 1: criticism and so and of course for myself, right, I've

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Speaker 1: benefited from self criticism a lot. And so don't we

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Speaker 1: need people to be more self critical so that they

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Speaker 1: can be better to others?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So self compassion, this kind of unconditional acceptance and kindness,

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Speaker 2: is toward our worthless people. As human beings. We need

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Speaker 2: to accept ourselves, but we can't accept all our behavior,

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Speaker 2: especially if it's harming self or others, Because if your

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Speaker 2: behaviors cause harm to yourself or others is not compassionate.

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Speaker 2: So what we do with self compassion is we accept

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Speaker 2: ourselves as flawed human beings who've made a mistake, and

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Speaker 2: that sense of safety. First of all, we don't blame

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Speaker 2: others as much. Often, if we slam ourselves with shame

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Speaker 2: for admitting we've done something wrong, our little brains are

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Speaker 2: going to try as hard as they can to avoid

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Speaker 2: taking responsibility and to blame someone else that they can.

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Speaker 2: And by the way, research shows that self compassion lessons shame,

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Speaker 2: which is a sense of I am bad, but not

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Speaker 2: necessarily guilt, which is I did something bad.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And reading your scholarship, I found this distinction very

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Speaker 1: helpful because you talk about the difference between guilt and shame,

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Speaker 1: and you say, look, being critical of our behavior is healthy.

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Speaker 1: It is good. It provides learning opportunities, It allows us

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Speaker 1: to be better people, allows us to reflect on who

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Speaker 1: we are and what we want from ourselves moving forward.

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Speaker 1: But criticism aimed at ourselves, at our being as a whole,

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Speaker 1: is not healthy because, as you said, and I've definitely

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Speaker 1: fallen into this camp in the past, you don't want

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Speaker 1: to internalize I made a mistake as I am a mistake, right,

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Speaker 1: I am bad?

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Speaker 2: Exactly When you do that, it actually shuts down your

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Speaker 2: ability to learn from your mistakes because you're so consumed

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Speaker 2: by the thoughts of inadequacy or shame, our sense of

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Speaker 2: self kind of gets totally absorbed by the shame. It's

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Speaker 2: like we disappear. There's no one home to be able

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Speaker 2: to try to correct the behavior. You need the safety

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Speaker 2: of self acceptance to be able to criticize your behavior

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Speaker 2: and to learn from it. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: One really counterintuitive finding that I stumbled upon when I

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Speaker 1: was reading your work is that when we are consumed

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Speaker 1: by shame, it actually makes it harder for us to

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Speaker 1: apologize to others.

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Speaker 2: Yes.

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Speaker 1: There was also another study that I read about that

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Speaker 1: hits on what I would call moral motivation. Ah. Yes,

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Speaker 1: so research suggesting that self compassion can actually increase our

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Speaker 1: motivation to take personal responsibility for our actions. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So one study they did Brienni's and Chen was they

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Speaker 2: had undergraduate students think about some behavior they had done

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Speaker 2: that they regretted. Maybe they lied to someone, or they

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Speaker 2: cheated on an exam, or they did something they felt

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Speaker 2: really badly about. And one group of people they gave

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Speaker 2: instructions to be compassionate about what they had done, and

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Speaker 2: a control group they told nothing, which meant they were

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Speaker 2: probably beating themselves up about what they'd done, because that's

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Speaker 2: kind of default mode for most of us. And what

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Speaker 2: they found was that the students who were told to

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Speaker 2: be compassionate about the mistake they made when they were

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Speaker 2: asked how motivated are you to either apologize or actually

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Speaker 2: to repair the mistake in some way, they found those

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Speaker 2: who are told to be self compassionate were more motivated

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Speaker 2: to repair the situation and to apologize.

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Speaker 1: Wow. So another myth that I love you to bust

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Speaker 1: is that self compassion is demotivating. And this one's personal.

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Speaker 1: So my husband, Jimmy, he loves playing competitive squash. Okay,

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Speaker 1: he's obsessed with squash. He's obsessed with getting better, and

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Speaker 1: he's so self motivated, but he really berates himself when

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Speaker 1: he has a poor performance. And as someone who really

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Speaker 1: loves him, I hate seeing him in this self duration mode,

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Speaker 1: Like it's pretty painful after a tournament or after some

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Speaker 1: competition for him to be like, oh God, why did

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Speaker 1: I do that? Or you know I messed up or

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Speaker 1: I didn't play my best. But what I tell him

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Speaker 1: to stop the self criticism, to curve it a bit.

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Speaker 1: His counter argument is that he doesn't want to lose

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Speaker 1: that part of himself because it means he might have

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Speaker 1: less motivation to work hard during his next practice session.

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Speaker 1: And so, yeah, give me a good argument with my husband.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I'll give you the argument that I'll give

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Speaker 2: you the data. Because this one is also very very clear,

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Speaker 2: is that self compassion is a more effective motivator than

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Speaker 2: self criticism. So self criticism does kind of work. Clearly,

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Speaker 2: it gets people through med school, It probably motivates your husband,

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Speaker 2: But the motivation comes from fear I have to do

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Speaker 2: better or else I'll slam myself, And that's motivating. No

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Speaker 2: one wants to feel like they're a bad person or

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Speaker 2: a loser, so that does provide some motivational power, but

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Speaker 2: it also has some maladaptive side effects, which is first

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Speaker 2: of all, performance anxiety. Right, So we want some anxiety

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Speaker 2: to feel like, okay, it's important that I work. But

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Speaker 2: performance anxiety, which is kind of fear of if I

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Speaker 2: mess up, I'm going to be a loser or I'm

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Speaker 2: going to shame myself. That actually stands in the way

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Speaker 2: of our ability to do our best. It also undermines

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Speaker 2: our self confidence. But this is really key. It undermines

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Speaker 2: our ability to learn. It's very similar to what we

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Speaker 2: were just talking about. If you shame yourself for losing,

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Speaker 2: I'm a loser, I'm a bad person, you aren't going

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Speaker 2: to be as able to say, Okay, just because I

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Speaker 2: lost doesn't mean I'm a loser. What can I do

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Speaker 2: better next time? And so self compassion is very strongly

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Speaker 2: linked to a learning goal orientation as opposed to what's

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Speaker 2: called performance goals, which is my success or failure, defiance

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Speaker 2: my work as a person. There's a new study that

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Speaker 2: isn't even published yet. It just got accepted a few

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Speaker 2: days ago. Hot Off the Presses.

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Speaker 1: Who I Love? Hot Off the Presses? Slight change listeners,

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Speaker 1: listen not so you know.

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Speaker 2: I work at University of Texas at Austin, and I

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Speaker 2: had a dissertation student at the time. He was an

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Speaker 2: ex basketball player who for her dissertation decided to formalize

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Speaker 2: a self compassion training for NC DOUBLEA athletes. So we

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Speaker 2: did a study with several high end NC DOUBLEA sports teams,

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Speaker 2: all different sports, and we taught them self compassion over

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Speaker 2: about four weeks. We actually didn't call it self compassion

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Speaker 2: because we knew that was stand in the way. We

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Speaker 2: called it inner resilience training, and we taught them how

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Speaker 2: to be warm and supportive and kind of themselves when

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Speaker 2: they were having trouble in their training routine or if

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Speaker 2: they lost in their sport. And what we found is

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Speaker 2: not only did it help players' mental health, it improved

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Speaker 2: their performance, both self rated and coach rated performance, because again,

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Speaker 2: when it's okay to make a mistake or to lose,

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Speaker 2: you're more able to learn from the loss or the

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Speaker 2: mistake and improve it next time.

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Speaker 1: So yes, I love all this research, Kristen. Another concern

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Speaker 1: that I'd had when it came to engaging with the

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Speaker 1: self compassion work or trying out these interventions is that

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Speaker 1: it just kind of felt self centered or selfish or narcissistic.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I was like, what am I doing here?

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Speaker 1: Sitting here trying to love myself? Like I just yeah,

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Speaker 1: convinced me that this is not just the most extreme

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Speaker 1: form of narcissism.

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Speaker 2: Yes, well, absolutely. The reason it's not selfish or narcissistic

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Speaker 2: is because it's not like we only have five units

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Speaker 2: of compassion and if we give three to ourselves, we

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Speaker 2: only have two left over for other people. It actually

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Speaker 2: doesn't work this way. Then the research is very clear.

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Speaker 2: The more self compassion we give ourselves, in other words,

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Speaker 2: the more we fill our own cup, the more compassion

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Speaker 2: we have available to give to others. Right, so, there's

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Speaker 2: a couple of studies that show this one is burnout.

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Speaker 2: You know, this burnout such a problem. We know whether

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Speaker 2: you're a special needs parent or you're a healthcare worker,

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Speaker 2: if you're more self compassionate, you're less likely to burn

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Speaker 2: out or experience fatigue giving compassion to others. And then

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Speaker 2: the other evidence we have that self compassion isn't selfish.

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Speaker 2: This is that in relationships, our partners say that we're

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Speaker 2: more giving, we're less selfish, we're less controlling in the

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Speaker 2: relationship if we have self compassion. And again, it's really

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Speaker 2: about resourcing yourself. When you can resource yourself, you actually

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Speaker 2: have more to give to others and you aren't so

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Speaker 2: self focused because it's like, oh, okay, maybe I made

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Speaker 2: a mistake or maybe this is a little difficult, and

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Speaker 2: you give yourself what you need to get through that,

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Speaker 2: and that actually gives you the emotional energy you need

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Speaker 2: to care for others. Shame and self criticism is an

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Speaker 2: incredibly self focused state, you know, who are you thinking

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Speaker 2: about when you're beating yourself up? Not other people?

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Speaker 1: A good point toiche. I think this is such a

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Speaker 1: critical point that you're making about us not having finite

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Speaker 1: compassion resources, because I think we do think of it

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Speaker 1: as a trade off instinctively. Oh, if I'm really compassionate

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Speaker 1: towards myself, then I have fewer resources to give to others,

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Speaker 1: Or if I'm really compassionate towards others, I don't have

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Speaker 1: the resources to give that same compassion to myself. Yes,

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Speaker 1: And what you're telling me is that we shouldn't see

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Speaker 1: it as a limited resource. We actually can tap into

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Speaker 1: a lot and it can be a virtuous cycle where

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Speaker 1: the more we invest compassion ourselves, the more the more

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Speaker 1: we have to give to others. Is that right?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, it's additive. It's not a zero sum game.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, Okay, an important distinction you make, so in

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Speaker 1: us really grasping what self compassion is, it's important to

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Speaker 1: say what it is not. Yes, And so you do

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Speaker 1: distinguish between something like self compassion and self esteem. And

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Speaker 1: I think this actually helps us understand why it is

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Speaker 1: not self indulgent, it's not necessarily ego boosting to be

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Speaker 1: self compassion. So tell me about the difference between self

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Speaker 1: compassion and self esteem.

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Speaker 2: Right, So self esteem, at least, you know, people define

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Speaker 2: different ways. But if you think about the word esteem,

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Speaker 2: it's a judgment or an evaluation of worth. So usually

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Speaker 2: it's predicated on being special and above average. You know,

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Speaker 2: if I said, hey, Maya, you have this podcasts average,

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Speaker 2: You're going to be devastated. If you say, hey, Christian,

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Speaker 2: your research is average, I'll be devastated. Right, So the

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Speaker 2: way it's set up is we all have to be

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Speaker 2: above average just for baseline self esteem. And so because

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Speaker 2: we're always comparing ourselves to others, that could lead to

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Speaker 2: problems like narcissism. If you think what narcissism is is

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Speaker 2: people who have to either be really superior to others

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Speaker 2: or who cannot take any negative feedback whatsoever they deflected.

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Speaker 2: They put up the shield because it's so devastating. So

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Speaker 2: self esteem is based on social comparison. It's also based

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Speaker 2: on UH performance success, and that might be you know,

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Speaker 2: success in terms of am I attractive? Do people like me?

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Speaker 2: And so self esteem tends to be contingent on external

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Speaker 2: factors like did I succeed or not. So self esteem

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Speaker 2: is a fair weather friend, right. It's there for you

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Speaker 2: when you're better than others or when you succeed, and

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Speaker 2: it deserts you when you need it most, when you're rejected,

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Speaker 2: or you feel inadequate, or you you know, fall flat

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Speaker 2: on your face. Self compassion is a good friend. It's

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Speaker 2: a stable friend. And if you're smiling and say, where's

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Speaker 2: the research for that? One study, for instance, is we

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Speaker 2: did measure self worth. We measured it twelve times over

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Speaker 2: an eight month period, and it was level of overall

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Speaker 2: self compassion, not level of self esteem that predicted stability

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Speaker 2: and self worth. You know, so self worth goes up

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Speaker 2: and down with self esteem. You have a good hair day,

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Speaker 2: you have a bad hair day. Self compassion is really

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Speaker 2: a constant friend. It's intrinsic to being human. Right. The

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Speaker 2: quintessential self compassion question is what do I need right now?

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Speaker 2: What do I need to learn? What do I need

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Speaker 2: to be there for myself right now? What do I need?

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Speaker 2: Do I need to give some help? Do I need

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Speaker 2: a bath? Wisdom is what tells you the answer, but

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Speaker 2: being willing to ask the question is key because what

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Speaker 2: you're saying is my needs count I'm worthy of care

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Speaker 2: and support.

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Speaker 1: After the break, Kristen walks us through the three elements

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Speaker 1: of self compassion. Then she shares a helpful exercise so

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Speaker 1: we can start practicing this skill in real time. We'll

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Speaker 1: be back in a moment with a slight change of plans.

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Speaker 1: I love this three opponent model you have for self compassion,

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Speaker 1: and it actually starts with mindfulness, which is a little

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Speaker 1: bit of a surprise for me. So help me thread

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Speaker 1: the needle between mindfulness and self compassion.

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Speaker 2: Yes, so, first of all, that's not an accident because

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Speaker 2: I first learned about self compassion when I was learning

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Speaker 2: mindfulness meditation, And so mindfulness has to be in self

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Speaker 2: compassion because mindfulness is what allows us to turn toward

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Speaker 2: and acknowledge the pain. We can't give ourself warmth and

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Speaker 2: support or ask you know, what can I do to

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Speaker 2: help if we don't acknowledge it, I'm hurting, And because

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Speaker 2: we're human beings who are naturally resistant to pain and suffering,

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Speaker 2: often we don't either. We ignore it. We just stiff

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Speaker 2: up the lip. But I'm just not going to pause

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Speaker 2: to acknowledge that I'm hurting and need some compassion, or

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Speaker 2: if we do the opposite, which I like to call

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Speaker 2: over identification, and that means we're lost in the negative emotion.

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Speaker 2: We're lost in the feelings of fear, shame, or anger,

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Speaker 2: or whatever it happens to be. And so if you

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Speaker 2: think about if a friend were to call you up,

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Speaker 2: and first of all, you didn't take their phone call,

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Speaker 2: you didn't listen to what your friend had to say,

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Speaker 2: You couldn't give them compassion. You know, I'm too busy.

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Speaker 2: We often do that with their selves. Actually we're too

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Speaker 2: busy deposit and acknowledge we're hurting and we need a

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Speaker 2: little help. But the other thing, imagine if your friend

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Speaker 2: called you and you just talked right over them and

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Speaker 2: you didn't give them any space for them to tell

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Speaker 2: you your story. We also actually do that with ourself a lot.

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Speaker 2: We get so wrapped up in our pain and the

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Speaker 2: story and the drama of what's happening that there's no

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Speaker 2: space to step outside of ourselves and say, hey, you're

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Speaker 2: really having a hard time. How can I help you?

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Speaker 2: So we actually need to start with mindfulness. We need

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Speaker 2: to turn towards the pain, as uncomfortable as it is,

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Speaker 2: in order to respond with this warmth and kindness and

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Speaker 2: so then the second element of self compassion, which actually

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Speaker 2: may not be so intuitive, is a sense of common humanity,

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Speaker 2: or in other words, recognize seeing that we aren't alone.

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Speaker 2: One of the problems when our suffering occurs, especially when

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Speaker 2: it's something that we've done, we've made a mistake, is

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Speaker 2: it Irrationally we feel like everyone else in the world

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Speaker 2: is living a normal, perfect life and it's just me

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Speaker 2: who's failed or made this mistake, or it's just me

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Speaker 2: who's going through this really challenging time. So again, it's

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Speaker 2: not a logical thought, but it's the way we feel

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Speaker 2: about it. And this is like kicking ourselves when we're down,

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Speaker 2: because not only are we hurting, we feel there's something

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Speaker 2: wrong with us for hurting, and we feel like we're

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Speaker 2: the only one. We feel isolated and alone in that pain.

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Speaker 2: So remembering other people it does two things. First of all,

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Speaker 2: it reminds us that we aren't alone, which helps as

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Speaker 2: opposed to feeling isolated. But it also, going back to

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Speaker 2: what I said earlier, it allows us to take our

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Speaker 2: pain less personally, that it's not poor me, it's well,

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Speaker 2: everyone is imperfect, everyone struggles. I'm not alone in this.

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Speaker 2: This is part of the larger hole that we call

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Speaker 2: human life. And then when we remember that, we feel

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Speaker 2: more connected as opposed to feeling isolated.

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Speaker 1: And what do we do, Kristin, when we what do

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Speaker 1: we do to combat feelings of exceptionalism in this regard?

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Speaker 1: And by that, I mean, yeah, I understand everyone's flawed,

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Speaker 1: but I kame a maya am legitimately flawed. I am

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Speaker 1: super flawed. And again I recognize there is an element

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Speaker 1: of narcissism baked in a comment like that, which is

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Speaker 1: to think you're so special that you're the worst person ever. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but you know, a lot of us do experience this

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Speaker 1: feeling that, Okay, there is some shared common humanity, but

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Speaker 1: what if secretly like I'm actually worse than everyone else

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Speaker 1: than what? Yeah, does that resonate?

432
00:23:54,036 --> 00:23:57,196
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that is a common thought. That's why it's

433
00:23:57,236 --> 00:24:00,836
Speaker 2: really helpful to practice self compassion with other people. So,

434
00:24:00,956 --> 00:24:03,756
Speaker 2: for instance, our self compassion training program is done in

435
00:24:03,836 --> 00:24:07,756
Speaker 2: small groups. I when you hear other people and they're

436
00:24:07,916 --> 00:24:10,116
Speaker 2: belief that they are the motion needly flawed person in

437
00:24:10,156 --> 00:24:13,716
Speaker 2: the world quite quickly disabuses you of that illusion that

438
00:24:13,796 --> 00:24:15,836
Speaker 2: you know you're the most flawed person in the world.

439
00:24:16,916 --> 00:24:19,996
Speaker 2: And then actually, what happens is self compassion, or turning

440
00:24:19,996 --> 00:24:22,756
Speaker 2: towards your suffering, becomes a way of feeling more connected

441
00:24:22,796 --> 00:24:26,916
Speaker 2: to everyone. Everyone struggles with feeling they're the most uniquely

442
00:24:26,956 --> 00:24:30,516
Speaker 2: flawed person of the world. That belief itself actually connects

443
00:24:30,596 --> 00:24:31,716
Speaker 2: us as human beings.

444
00:24:32,596 --> 00:24:34,396
Speaker 1: So what I'm hearing is that, you know, for those

445
00:24:34,436 --> 00:24:37,396
Speaker 1: who are struggling to even just crack the door open

446
00:24:37,436 --> 00:24:39,916
Speaker 1: on self compassion because they think they're unworthy of the

447
00:24:39,956 --> 00:24:43,996
Speaker 1: practice altogether, if you go to a group setting, for example,

448
00:24:44,036 --> 00:24:46,716
Speaker 1: where others are able to be open and honest with

449
00:24:46,796 --> 00:24:50,316
Speaker 1: you about their own feelings of shame, their own feelings

450
00:24:50,356 --> 00:24:52,636
Speaker 1: of unworthiness, that can be a really nice way to

451
00:24:52,636 --> 00:24:55,396
Speaker 1: signal to your brain. Look, you're not even alone in

452
00:24:55,396 --> 00:24:57,756
Speaker 1: the feeling that you're the most deeply flawed person ever,

453
00:24:57,956 --> 00:24:59,596
Speaker 1: like other people are feeling that as.

454
00:24:59,476 --> 00:25:02,276
Speaker 2: Well, exactly as part of the human experience.

455
00:25:03,396 --> 00:25:05,756
Speaker 1: Okay, so we talked about two components so far. Right,

456
00:25:05,796 --> 00:25:08,396
Speaker 1: So we've talked about the importance of paying attention to

457
00:25:08,436 --> 00:25:11,916
Speaker 1: our sufferings, being mindful, and the second is around just

458
00:25:11,956 --> 00:25:14,916
Speaker 1: seeing ourselves as humans. Right, we're part of this richer

459
00:25:15,076 --> 00:25:18,356
Speaker 1: fabric which is complicated and messy, and we're not alone

460
00:25:18,676 --> 00:25:21,476
Speaker 1: in our suffering. What is the third element?

461
00:25:22,436 --> 00:25:25,236
Speaker 2: Well, the third is actually the one that's most intuitive,

462
00:25:25,236 --> 00:25:29,316
Speaker 2: and that's kindness, feelings of warmth, care and support. So

463
00:25:29,356 --> 00:25:31,796
Speaker 2: you can either think what would I say to a

464
00:25:31,836 --> 00:25:34,996
Speaker 2: dear friend in the exact same situation, and then that

465
00:25:35,116 --> 00:25:38,476
Speaker 2: shock your template for what to say to yourself, or alternatively,

466
00:25:38,556 --> 00:25:41,476
Speaker 2: you can imagine, you know, what would a really kind person,

467
00:25:41,596 --> 00:25:43,756
Speaker 2: what would ted Lasso, for instance, say to me in

468
00:25:43,796 --> 00:25:46,916
Speaker 2: this situation, or my grandmother or someone that really cared

469
00:25:46,916 --> 00:25:50,436
Speaker 2: about me. And actually, when most people think of self compassion,

470
00:25:50,476 --> 00:25:54,316
Speaker 2: they only think of the kindness. They forget the mindfulness

471
00:25:54,356 --> 00:25:57,036
Speaker 2: and the sense of common humanity, and that's partly why

472
00:25:57,116 --> 00:26:00,156
Speaker 2: people think it's selfish. I mean, a narcissists may be

473
00:26:00,276 --> 00:26:03,076
Speaker 2: really kind to themselves, but if they think they're better

474
00:26:03,116 --> 00:26:06,116
Speaker 2: than other people, or if they don't have mindfulness to

475
00:26:06,236 --> 00:26:09,676
Speaker 2: clearly see their flaws and their mistakes, it's actually not

476
00:26:09,756 --> 00:26:12,396
Speaker 2: self compassion. It's like a three leg good stool. You

477
00:26:12,436 --> 00:26:13,356
Speaker 2: need all three.

478
00:26:14,876 --> 00:26:16,996
Speaker 1: So Kristin, first of all, thanks for convincing us that

479
00:26:17,036 --> 00:26:20,356
Speaker 1: we should be on board with self compassion. That's very helpful,

480
00:26:21,476 --> 00:26:24,076
Speaker 1: but that doesn't obviously make us immediately self compassionate, and

481
00:26:24,116 --> 00:26:27,396
Speaker 1: so you have built a number of practices. You say,

482
00:26:27,476 --> 00:26:29,756
Speaker 1: self compassion is a skill that we can work to

483
00:26:29,876 --> 00:26:34,436
Speaker 1: intentionally develop. And one of your self compassion practices is

484
00:26:34,436 --> 00:26:36,876
Speaker 1: called the self compassion break, and it just takes a

485
00:26:36,876 --> 00:26:39,436
Speaker 1: few minutes. It can be practiced daily. I love this

486
00:26:39,516 --> 00:26:41,916
Speaker 1: one because for someone like me just getting your feet wet,

487
00:26:42,076 --> 00:26:44,156
Speaker 1: you know, it's easy to integrate into daily life. And

488
00:26:44,236 --> 00:26:46,316
Speaker 1: so do you mind just leading me? We've got the

489
00:26:46,316 --> 00:26:48,396
Speaker 1: expert here, so obviously I'm not going to forego an

490
00:26:48,396 --> 00:26:52,276
Speaker 1: opportunity to be led through a self compassion exercise. Do

491
00:26:52,356 --> 00:26:54,196
Speaker 1: you mind just leading us through a version of that?

492
00:26:54,636 --> 00:26:58,356
Speaker 2: Absolutely? So, really, all you're doing is intentionally calling the

493
00:26:58,436 --> 00:27:02,356
Speaker 2: mind the three components of mindfulness, common humanity, kindness towards

494
00:27:02,396 --> 00:27:05,316
Speaker 2: an instance of suffering. So basically, you just start by

495
00:27:05,316 --> 00:27:08,836
Speaker 2: thinking of something that's causing you some distress in your life.

496
00:27:09,316 --> 00:27:12,436
Speaker 2: You know, hopefully think of something minor right now, because

497
00:27:12,476 --> 00:27:15,196
Speaker 2: you don't want to get lost and stop listening to

498
00:27:15,236 --> 00:27:18,116
Speaker 2: the podcast because you're overwhelmed by the thing, something that's

499
00:27:18,116 --> 00:27:21,676
Speaker 2: bothering you, maybe about yourself or you know, some stress

500
00:27:21,676 --> 00:27:25,196
Speaker 2: you're experiencing, maybe a health issue. To just take a

501
00:27:25,196 --> 00:27:28,116
Speaker 2: moment to decide what to work with. And of course

502
00:27:28,116 --> 00:27:29,996
Speaker 2: in real life you don't have to decide it, it

503
00:27:29,996 --> 00:27:32,516
Speaker 2: will present itself. But for right now, think of something

504
00:27:34,076 --> 00:27:35,676
Speaker 2: and then the first thing to do is just to

505
00:27:35,676 --> 00:27:39,116
Speaker 2: bring mindfulness to it. So just acknowledge, hey, this is hard,

506
00:27:40,276 --> 00:27:43,156
Speaker 2: you know, instead of just immediately trying to problem solve

507
00:27:43,356 --> 00:27:46,196
Speaker 2: or get rid of the problem, just acknowledge that this hurts,

508
00:27:46,556 --> 00:27:51,596
Speaker 2: this is challenging, and then remember the humanity of this situation, right,

509
00:27:51,756 --> 00:27:54,556
Speaker 2: This is part of life. Being human is not about

510
00:27:54,596 --> 00:27:59,516
Speaker 2: being perfect. People make mistakes. You aren't the only one.

511
00:28:00,676 --> 00:28:03,076
Speaker 2: Is just taking a moment to remember that this actually

512
00:28:03,116 --> 00:28:05,876
Speaker 2: connects you to other people. You aren't alone in this,

513
00:28:08,316 --> 00:28:12,356
Speaker 2: and then try giving yourself some kindness because it is hard.

514
00:28:12,876 --> 00:28:15,596
Speaker 2: Maybe thinking of what you would say to a good friend.

515
00:28:15,756 --> 00:28:17,396
Speaker 2: Imagine if you had a really good friend who was

516
00:28:17,476 --> 00:28:21,316
Speaker 2: experiencing the exact same thing you're experiencing. Just take a

517
00:28:21,356 --> 00:28:27,396
Speaker 2: moment to do that, right, What would you say? What

518
00:28:27,516 --> 00:28:34,556
Speaker 2: tone of voice would you use? Right, And then just

519
00:28:34,636 --> 00:28:40,516
Speaker 2: try saying something similar to yourself being I'm here for you,

520
00:28:41,876 --> 00:28:45,916
Speaker 2: I'm so sorry, this is so difficult. How can I help?

521
00:28:46,436 --> 00:28:55,916
Speaker 2: I care about you? Right, And that's really the practice.

522
00:28:56,196 --> 00:28:58,716
Speaker 2: It can be done very quickly. You can also do

523
00:28:58,756 --> 00:29:02,276
Speaker 2: it and longer, but it is that three legged stool

524
00:29:02,276 --> 00:29:05,036
Speaker 2: you start with the mindfulness. You remember that you aren't alone.

525
00:29:05,036 --> 00:29:08,276
Speaker 2: You give yourself kindness. So mind that short, little little

526
00:29:08,276 --> 00:29:10,556
Speaker 2: mini self compactis break. Did you notice a shift and

527
00:29:10,596 --> 00:29:11,596
Speaker 2: something you were thinking of?

528
00:29:12,556 --> 00:29:16,916
Speaker 1: I did, and I felt like, well, one, even just

529
00:29:16,956 --> 00:29:20,076
Speaker 1: to pose these questions to yourself is so powerful and

530
00:29:20,116 --> 00:29:22,716
Speaker 1: not at all what I naturally gravitate towards in my

531
00:29:22,796 --> 00:29:25,796
Speaker 1: day to day life. I mean, it's I had this

532
00:29:25,916 --> 00:29:30,076
Speaker 1: meta experience. It was literally powerful for me to hear

533
00:29:30,156 --> 00:29:33,636
Speaker 1: those questions being asked of me in the first place. Yeah. Yeah,

534
00:29:33,676 --> 00:29:36,596
Speaker 1: And I you know, I was thinking about reading some

535
00:29:36,676 --> 00:29:38,636
Speaker 1: reviews of the podcast, which is always fun. I mean,

536
00:29:38,636 --> 00:29:43,036
Speaker 1: some of the ninety nine percent are so delightful and

537
00:29:43,116 --> 00:29:46,076
Speaker 1: so charming, and I'm so moved by the impact the

538
00:29:46,116 --> 00:29:48,396
Speaker 1: show has had. And of course, like every other human

539
00:29:48,596 --> 00:29:51,956
Speaker 1: planet Earth, I take the one that's critical or harsh,

540
00:29:52,076 --> 00:29:55,356
Speaker 1: and I take it so personally, like this happened last night, right.

541
00:29:55,436 --> 00:29:57,516
Speaker 1: I read this one comment and I was like, did

542
00:29:57,556 --> 00:29:59,316
Speaker 1: I make the wrong decision? Should I have said it

543
00:29:59,356 --> 00:30:01,356
Speaker 1: this way versus this way? And I was just I

544
00:30:01,356 --> 00:30:04,316
Speaker 1: was beating myself up, and just in this moment, I

545
00:30:04,396 --> 00:30:07,876
Speaker 1: was trying to think to myself, Okay, well, surely I'm

546
00:30:07,916 --> 00:30:11,596
Speaker 1: not the only podcast or to have confronted this, or

547
00:30:11,716 --> 00:30:15,996
Speaker 1: write or author or writer or literally anyone who puts

548
00:30:16,196 --> 00:30:19,236
Speaker 1: their point of view out into the world right is

549
00:30:19,276 --> 00:30:20,996
Speaker 1: going to have these feelings. And so yeah, it did

550
00:30:21,396 --> 00:30:24,636
Speaker 1: allow me to have a slightly more compassionate posture towards myself,

551
00:30:24,716 --> 00:30:26,196
Speaker 1: which is really amazing.

552
00:30:26,316 --> 00:30:26,556
Speaker 2: Yeah.

553
00:30:27,836 --> 00:30:30,236
Speaker 1: Okay, So now that we understand the value of self

554
00:30:30,236 --> 00:30:32,676
Speaker 1: compassion and also why it is that we resist it

555
00:30:33,156 --> 00:30:35,876
Speaker 1: and some ways that we can cultivate it, I'd love

556
00:30:35,956 --> 00:30:38,836
Speaker 1: to workshop some of these ideas and help us understand

557
00:30:38,836 --> 00:30:42,116
Speaker 1: how we can apply this very valuable wisdom to our

558
00:30:42,156 --> 00:30:45,436
Speaker 1: everyday lives. And so I've chosen I think that everyone

559
00:30:45,436 --> 00:30:48,876
Speaker 1: struggles in this area where we have to navigate difficult

560
00:30:48,916 --> 00:30:52,516
Speaker 1: conversations or relationship moments. So you know, I hear from

561
00:30:52,556 --> 00:30:54,516
Speaker 1: so many of my friends who have kids that they

562
00:30:56,036 --> 00:31:00,076
Speaker 1: in the moment they're frustrated, they lose their patience, they overreact,

563
00:31:00,116 --> 00:31:02,436
Speaker 1: and then they beat themselves up after or they're in

564
00:31:02,476 --> 00:31:04,956
Speaker 1: a conversation with their partner and they find themselves getting

565
00:31:04,996 --> 00:31:07,956
Speaker 1: angry or flippant or whatever it is. And so how

566
00:31:07,956 --> 00:31:10,516
Speaker 1: can we show ourselves a little bit more self compassion

567
00:31:10,556 --> 00:31:12,636
Speaker 1: in these moments where can we just fall prey to

568
00:31:12,676 --> 00:31:14,516
Speaker 1: being human? Really, that's all it is.

569
00:31:15,196 --> 00:31:18,076
Speaker 2: Yeah, So it's funny. I just had something like this

570
00:31:18,156 --> 00:31:20,636
Speaker 2: happened with my boyfriend where I was reactive and I

571
00:31:20,676 --> 00:31:23,876
Speaker 2: was inappropriate. And we're fairly new in our relationship. It's

572
00:31:23,916 --> 00:31:27,396
Speaker 2: about three months and he's thinking, she ths like this.

573
00:31:27,876 --> 00:31:31,076
Speaker 2: I am wired to be reactive. I've worked on it

574
00:31:31,156 --> 00:31:34,796
Speaker 2: a little bit, and I've done like lots of silent meditation,

575
00:31:34,876 --> 00:31:39,196
Speaker 2: retreats and all these mindfulness techniques. When the reaction comes up,

576
00:31:39,476 --> 00:31:42,076
Speaker 2: there's really nothing I can do. It's like my brain,

577
00:31:42,116 --> 00:31:44,876
Speaker 2: the reactivity takes over this nose. This is me. Other

578
00:31:44,916 --> 00:31:48,756
Speaker 2: people manage to be mindful, not me. It just takes over,

579
00:31:49,236 --> 00:31:52,316
Speaker 2: and I don't have the clarity to be able to say, Kristen,

580
00:31:52,596 --> 00:31:54,436
Speaker 2: do you really want to respond that way? You know,

581
00:31:54,436 --> 00:31:57,636
Speaker 2: maybe just a little you know, help here. It just

582
00:31:57,636 --> 00:32:00,756
Speaker 2: just my wiring doesn't work that way. People's brains are different.

583
00:32:00,756 --> 00:32:03,596
Speaker 2: In my brain, when it gets triggered, I'm just I'm

584
00:32:03,636 --> 00:32:05,796
Speaker 2: no longer there. I don't have the observer who's able

585
00:32:05,876 --> 00:32:08,836
Speaker 2: to make a choice. It's gotten a little better. It's

586
00:32:08,876 --> 00:32:13,156
Speaker 2: not totally fa but marginally so. And so you may

587
00:32:13,196 --> 00:32:15,236
Speaker 2: not be able to give yourself compassion in the moment

588
00:32:15,276 --> 00:32:18,316
Speaker 2: that you're having that reaction with your kids or your friend,

589
00:32:18,676 --> 00:32:21,636
Speaker 2: but what you can do is very quickly afterward. So

590
00:32:21,836 --> 00:32:25,316
Speaker 2: it takes me about five minutes tops to come down

591
00:32:25,436 --> 00:32:28,436
Speaker 2: and I realize the little brain I call it brain

592
00:32:28,516 --> 00:32:32,196
Speaker 2: farts re activity. It's like it just happens, and then

593
00:32:32,236 --> 00:32:36,156
Speaker 2: it's like, okay, okay, I've got clarity again. Wow. The

594
00:32:36,196 --> 00:32:40,116
Speaker 2: self compassion allows me to apologize if I've been reactive,

595
00:32:40,396 --> 00:32:42,676
Speaker 2: whether it again to my son or my partner, to

596
00:32:42,716 --> 00:32:45,596
Speaker 2: a friend, to own it. I don't like blame the

597
00:32:45,636 --> 00:32:48,396
Speaker 2: other person. I don't try to justify it that I

598
00:32:48,476 --> 00:32:51,396
Speaker 2: was really out of line. I'm very sorry, and that

599
00:32:51,436 --> 00:32:53,556
Speaker 2: helps the other person get over it and you get

600
00:32:53,596 --> 00:32:56,596
Speaker 2: to the point of talking about what happened. But you know,

601
00:32:56,676 --> 00:32:59,436
Speaker 2: the other thing I've started doing recently which really helps

602
00:32:59,596 --> 00:33:02,516
Speaker 2: as I frontload it, Like if I'm meeting a new person,

603
00:33:02,556 --> 00:33:05,356
Speaker 2: I'll say, you know, I could be reactive. It's just

604
00:33:05,396 --> 00:33:07,956
Speaker 2: the way my brain is wired. If it happens please

605
00:33:07,996 --> 00:33:10,996
Speaker 2: don't take it personally. And you can also do that

606
00:33:11,036 --> 00:33:13,836
Speaker 2: with your kids, right. You can say to your kids,

607
00:33:14,596 --> 00:33:16,916
Speaker 2: I'm not perfect. Sometimes I react. It's not how I

608
00:33:16,996 --> 00:33:20,116
Speaker 2: want to be with you, but it may happen. This

609
00:33:20,156 --> 00:33:22,836
Speaker 2: is how human beings are. If it does happen, I

610
00:33:22,836 --> 00:33:26,076
Speaker 2: will apologize. And then what you're doing is you're modeling

611
00:33:26,236 --> 00:33:29,556
Speaker 2: for your kid that we are human. As long as

612
00:33:29,556 --> 00:33:31,596
Speaker 2: we don't pretend we didn't do it, or try to

613
00:33:31,596 --> 00:33:35,876
Speaker 2: blame someone else or avoid responsibility, then not only does

614
00:33:35,876 --> 00:33:38,956
Speaker 2: it help them not take it personally, it gives them

615
00:33:38,996 --> 00:33:41,676
Speaker 2: permission to be a little more self compassionate to themselves.

616
00:33:42,036 --> 00:33:46,996
Speaker 2: We think that harshness helps us stay inline. It actually doesn't.

617
00:33:47,436 --> 00:33:49,716
Speaker 2: When we're harsh and we feel shame or we really

618
00:33:49,756 --> 00:33:52,596
Speaker 2: feel a lot of stress of judging ourselves, it actually

619
00:33:52,596 --> 00:33:55,876
Speaker 2: makes us more reactive, not less reactive, because our brain

620
00:33:55,956 --> 00:33:59,356
Speaker 2: is also filled with all these negative judgments. Carl Rogers

621
00:33:59,396 --> 00:34:02,836
Speaker 2: said famously, the curious paradox is the more I accept myself,

622
00:34:02,876 --> 00:34:03,836
Speaker 2: the more I can change.

623
00:34:05,116 --> 00:34:07,836
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is excellent role modeling when it comes to

624
00:34:07,836 --> 00:34:11,356
Speaker 1: self compassion, because what I'm hearing you do is say, Okay,

625
00:34:11,476 --> 00:34:13,756
Speaker 1: there's this thing that I do that I don't love.

626
00:34:15,116 --> 00:34:18,156
Speaker 1: I'm owning it. I am trying to work on it. It's

627
00:34:18,036 --> 00:34:20,556
Speaker 1: gotten a little bit better over the years, but it

628
00:34:20,556 --> 00:34:23,516
Speaker 1: doesn't feel fully in my control. I do feel sometimes

629
00:34:23,516 --> 00:34:25,156
Speaker 1: like I just lose it and I'm just not able

630
00:34:25,196 --> 00:34:29,316
Speaker 1: to be that dispassionate observer who's curving the behavior. So

631
00:34:29,476 --> 00:34:32,876
Speaker 1: given this, I am going to do whatever I can

632
00:34:33,156 --> 00:34:35,396
Speaker 1: to protect the people around me when I mean in

633
00:34:35,436 --> 00:34:38,156
Speaker 1: that state and make them know that they shouldn't. You

634
00:34:38,396 --> 00:34:40,996
Speaker 1: take it personally, and so that just seems like such

635
00:34:40,996 --> 00:34:43,916
Speaker 1: a healthy recipe, and you're not excusing it. You're not

636
00:34:43,956 --> 00:34:46,796
Speaker 1: saying I love that, I'm this way deal with it.

637
00:34:47,356 --> 00:34:49,436
Speaker 1: You're like, I'm working on it. But it's a it's

638
00:34:49,476 --> 00:34:50,116
Speaker 1: a slow work.

639
00:34:50,636 --> 00:34:53,716
Speaker 2: And the more people accept you and your flaws, ironically,

640
00:34:54,436 --> 00:34:57,316
Speaker 2: the easier it is to be mindful, to be aware,

641
00:34:57,716 --> 00:35:00,916
Speaker 2: because often reactivity comes from your ego being triggered in

642
00:35:00,916 --> 00:35:04,196
Speaker 2: some way, and the more you feel accepted, the less

643
00:35:04,196 --> 00:35:05,836
Speaker 2: your ego needs to defend itself.

644
00:35:06,836 --> 00:35:10,876
Speaker 1: I like that what happens, Kristen. So a lot of

645
00:35:10,916 --> 00:35:14,116
Speaker 1: people who are listening to this show, given my understanding

646
00:35:14,156 --> 00:35:17,996
Speaker 1: of slight Change listeners based on my interactions, they're the

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00:35:18,076 --> 00:35:22,316
Speaker 1: kinds of people who really really care for others. Yeah,

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00:35:22,356 --> 00:35:24,516
Speaker 1: and then they also really want to be self compassionate.

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00:35:24,556 --> 00:35:29,796
Speaker 1: And sometimes those things can stand in conflict with one another, right,

650
00:35:29,836 --> 00:35:31,876
Speaker 1: they can be at odds. So the thing that's going

651
00:35:31,916 --> 00:35:35,396
Speaker 1: to be compassionate towards myself is going to conflict with

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00:35:35,516 --> 00:35:39,076
Speaker 1: being compassionate towards someone else. How do we navigate those

653
00:35:39,116 --> 00:35:42,036
Speaker 1: tensions where we feel like doing a thing that's kind

654
00:35:42,036 --> 00:35:44,756
Speaker 1: to us is maybe not the kindest thing for someone else.

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00:35:45,636 --> 00:35:48,796
Speaker 2: Yeah, it reminds me a little bit of the boundaries conversation.

656
00:35:48,916 --> 00:35:52,636
Speaker 2: There's a great quote by apprentice Hempill that boundaries are

657
00:35:52,676 --> 00:35:55,916
Speaker 2: the distance at which I can love myself and you simultaneously.

658
00:35:57,036 --> 00:36:00,756
Speaker 2: So finding that balance point, whether it's a boundary or

659
00:36:00,796 --> 00:36:05,356
Speaker 2: whether it's a negotiation where we respect the other person's

660
00:36:05,436 --> 00:36:09,116
Speaker 2: needs and our needs is of course it's the ideal, right,

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00:36:09,716 --> 00:36:12,876
Speaker 2: But as you say, there are some situations where it's

662
00:36:12,916 --> 00:36:16,476
Speaker 2: just not possible, where it's just either or, And that's

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00:36:16,516 --> 00:36:19,156
Speaker 2: what you know, there's no heart and fast rule for

664
00:36:19,276 --> 00:36:22,636
Speaker 2: doing that is wisdom. So, for instance, with my son

665
00:36:23,156 --> 00:36:27,916
Speaker 2: or you know, parent child relationships, he's also autistic, so

666
00:36:27,956 --> 00:36:30,676
Speaker 2: when he was younger, you just make the choice to

667
00:36:30,716 --> 00:36:33,356
Speaker 2: put your child first. You know, it's not even necessarily

668
00:36:33,356 --> 00:36:35,556
Speaker 2: that difficult to choice. And by the way, it's not

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00:36:35,596 --> 00:36:38,036
Speaker 2: like you're ignoring your own needs, because if your child

670
00:36:38,156 --> 00:36:40,716
Speaker 2: is unhappy, you're going to be unhappy. So or if

671
00:36:40,756 --> 00:36:43,276
Speaker 2: the relationship is poor, you're going to be unhappy. So

672
00:36:43,316 --> 00:36:46,516
Speaker 2: there's also some benefit for the self. But now that

673
00:36:46,596 --> 00:36:49,516
Speaker 2: he's older, for instance, and he's doing great, by the way,

674
00:36:50,036 --> 00:36:52,156
Speaker 2: I can say, you know, I would love to take

675
00:36:52,196 --> 00:36:54,156
Speaker 2: you to the zoo, but actually I'm sorry, I've got

676
00:36:54,196 --> 00:36:58,036
Speaker 2: to our plans that weekend. You know, self compassion doesn't

677
00:36:58,076 --> 00:37:02,036
Speaker 2: provide answers about how to resolve a conflict. But what

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00:37:02,116 --> 00:37:05,116
Speaker 2: it does do is it allows you to access your wisdom.

679
00:37:05,636 --> 00:37:07,756
Speaker 2: But think of it from all sides. Again, you don't

680
00:37:07,796 --> 00:37:11,636
Speaker 2: prioritize your own needs, but you don't subordinate them. You

681
00:37:11,676 --> 00:37:14,556
Speaker 2: don't make your choices based on whether or not people

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00:37:14,596 --> 00:37:17,916
Speaker 2: are gonna like you. You make your choices from care,

683
00:37:18,356 --> 00:37:21,516
Speaker 2: care for yourself, care for the other person. And you

684
00:37:21,556 --> 00:37:24,716
Speaker 2: also you give yourself the safety to know, maybe we'll

685
00:37:24,716 --> 00:37:27,236
Speaker 2: make a mistake, maybe I'll try this and it won't

686
00:37:27,276 --> 00:37:30,356
Speaker 2: work out, so we'll have to try something different. But

687
00:37:30,436 --> 00:37:33,916
Speaker 2: a lot of people when they're starting out. Absolutely. I

688
00:37:34,076 --> 00:37:35,996
Speaker 2: got an email at once from a woman who said,

689
00:37:36,156 --> 00:37:38,076
Speaker 2: thanks for giving me one more thing I'm bad at,

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00:37:39,276 --> 00:37:41,836
Speaker 2: you know. So that's why it's so important to give

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00:37:41,876 --> 00:37:44,476
Speaker 2: yourself some kindness about that. It's not totally natural to

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00:37:44,516 --> 00:37:47,596
Speaker 2: be self compassionate. It is a practice you do have

693
00:37:47,636 --> 00:37:51,836
Speaker 2: to learn, and pain will still arise, mistakes will still arise,

694
00:37:52,116 --> 00:37:55,156
Speaker 2: shame will still arise. What you do with self compassion

695
00:37:55,236 --> 00:37:58,716
Speaker 2: practice is you learn not to exacerbate it through harsh

696
00:37:58,796 --> 00:38:30,076
Speaker 2: judgment or taking things personally or running away with the storyline.

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00:38:30,716 --> 00:38:33,676
Speaker 1: Hey, thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed my

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00:38:33,756 --> 00:38:37,036
Speaker 1: conversation with Kristen, you may also enjoy a conversation I

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00:38:37,116 --> 00:38:41,276
Speaker 1: had with a psychology professor, Ethan Cross. The episode is

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00:38:41,316 --> 00:38:44,876
Speaker 1: called The Science of Our Inner Voice. Ethan and I

701
00:38:44,956 --> 00:38:48,356
Speaker 1: talk about strategies to rein in our mental chatter, like

702
00:38:48,396 --> 00:38:51,636
Speaker 1: that pesky inner voice that tells us we aren't good enough.

703
00:38:52,276 --> 00:38:54,636
Speaker 1: It's a great follow on episode if you're working on

704
00:38:54,676 --> 00:38:57,396
Speaker 1: being kinder to yourself. We'll link to it in the

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00:38:57,396 --> 00:39:00,796
Speaker 1: show notes, and next week join me for a fun

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00:39:00,836 --> 00:39:05,076
Speaker 1: episode about turning your passion into a career. We'll share

707
00:39:05,076 --> 00:39:08,276
Speaker 1: the story of a guy named Scott who loves pizza,

708
00:39:08,956 --> 00:39:12,676
Speaker 1: I mean really loves it. He eventually turned that love

709
00:39:12,756 --> 00:39:15,956
Speaker 1: into a one of a kind pizza tour business. Get

710
00:39:15,956 --> 00:39:20,116
Speaker 1: ready for lots of cheesy pizza funds. Sorry in advance,

711
00:39:20,596 --> 00:39:34,196
Speaker 1: see you next week. A Slight Change of Plans is created, written,

712
00:39:34,196 --> 00:39:37,876
Speaker 1: and executive produced by me Maya Shunker. The Slight Change

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00:39:37,916 --> 00:39:41,996
Speaker 1: Family includes our showrunner Tyler Green, our senior editor Kate

714
00:39:42,036 --> 00:39:46,756
Speaker 1: Parkinson Morgan, our producer Trisha Bobida, and our sound engineer

715
00:39:46,836 --> 00:39:51,516
Speaker 1: Andrew Vestola. Louis Scara wrote our delightful theme song, and

716
00:39:51,596 --> 00:39:54,836
Speaker 1: Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A Slight Change of

717
00:39:54,876 --> 00:39:58,236
Speaker 1: Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries. So big thanks

718
00:39:58,236 --> 00:40:02,076
Speaker 1: to everyone there, and of course a very special thanks

719
00:40:02,156 --> 00:40:04,836
Speaker 1: to Jimmy Lee. You can follow A Slight Change of

720
00:40:04,836 --> 00:40:08,756
Speaker 1: Plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Shunker. See you next week.

721
00:40:11,756 --> 00:40:13,956
Speaker 1: There the