WEBVTT - From the Vault: Social Media is a B.U.M.M.E.R. 0:00:05.720 --> 0:00:07.560 Hey, you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My 0:00:07.640 --> 0:00:10.920 name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday. 0:00:11.039 --> 0:00:13.640 Tabnico into the Vault for an older episode of the show. 0:00:13.720 --> 0:00:17.840 This one originally aired on August six, nineteen, and it 0:00:17.960 --> 0:00:20.520 was called Social Media Is a Bummer. This is where 0:00:20.520 --> 0:00:23.639 we talked about Jarn Lanier's book, which was highly critical 0:00:23.640 --> 0:00:26.720 of social media. That's right, Ten arguments for deleting your 0:00:26.720 --> 0:00:29.400 social media accounts right now. I think it's an excellent 0:00:29.400 --> 0:00:36.640 food for thought as we continue through. Welcome to Stuff 0:00:36.640 --> 0:00:38.640 to Blow Your Mind, a production of I Heart Radios 0:00:38.680 --> 0:00:47.200 How Stuff Work. Hey, you welcome to Stuff to Blow 0:00:47.240 --> 0:00:50.160 your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, 0:00:50.240 --> 0:00:52.880 and we're back to a subject that may be familiar 0:00:52.880 --> 0:00:54.520 to you if you've been listening to the show for 0:00:54.560 --> 0:00:56.640 a bit. It's the next battle in the war against 0:00:56.680 --> 0:00:59.960 the Machines. That's right, you know, as we've already got 0:01:00.040 --> 0:01:01.440 us in the show, and I think it's obvious to 0:01:01.480 --> 0:01:04.880 most of our listeners the wonders of interconnectedness that the 0:01:04.920 --> 0:01:09.080 web have have have given us have also unleashed some 0:01:09.240 --> 0:01:12.720 less than satisfying realities. You know, we we worry about 0:01:12.760 --> 0:01:16.640 smartphone addiction and the degree to which the these devices 0:01:16.680 --> 0:01:18.560 and the many apps they have on them have been 0:01:18.600 --> 0:01:21.880 engineered to gain our attention. And then there's been growing 0:01:21.880 --> 0:01:24.920 attention given to the role social media has in in 0:01:25.200 --> 0:01:28.959 you know, playing into you know, corporate and state manipulation 0:01:29.040 --> 0:01:32.960 and endangering democracy, our personal freedom, and our happiness. We've 0:01:33.040 --> 0:01:37.679 we've recorded a few different notable episodes on these topics. Right, So, 0:01:37.760 --> 0:01:40.480 I know you and Christian a while back did an episode. 0:01:40.720 --> 0:01:42.880 Now this was years ago now, so that the research 0:01:42.920 --> 0:01:44.520 has come a long way since then, I think, but 0:01:44.560 --> 0:01:48.600 you did an episode on what the measurable psychological effects 0:01:48.600 --> 0:01:52.640 of social media were, Uh, and there's still I think 0:01:52.640 --> 0:01:55.400 this is still a developing field. Like I notice a 0:01:55.440 --> 0:01:58.640 lot of conflicting findings when I read upon this, Like 0:01:59.120 --> 0:02:02.720 is social media making us more lonely, more depressed? Whatever? 0:02:02.760 --> 0:02:06.320 It seems like the answer to that question is it's complicated, right, 0:02:06.400 --> 0:02:08.120 And and I think we'll discuss a little bit this 0:02:08.200 --> 0:02:10.040 later on too. That you know, it also depends on 0:02:10.080 --> 0:02:12.799 how you're using social media, what your role is, or 0:02:12.880 --> 0:02:16.040 using social media is part of your job, etcetera. Yeah, Uh, 0:02:16.120 --> 0:02:18.320 then we also you and I. Robert did a couple 0:02:18.320 --> 0:02:20.600 of episodes within the past couple of years called the 0:02:20.600 --> 0:02:24.680 Great Eyeball Wars that were primarily about the attention economy, 0:02:24.720 --> 0:02:28.760 about the fact that our our devices, and specifically especially 0:02:28.760 --> 0:02:31.919 like social media platforms on those devices, but other platforms 0:02:31.960 --> 0:02:37.239 also are because they make their money by getting you 0:02:37.320 --> 0:02:40.880 to use them and pay attention through you know, advertiser dollars. 0:02:40.880 --> 0:02:43.880 Like you are the product on these platforms. You're not 0:02:43.960 --> 0:02:46.679 the customer. Uh, and your attention is what is being 0:02:46.720 --> 0:02:49.960 sold to the advertisers. They're addicting us, and they're addicting 0:02:50.040 --> 0:02:52.160 us on purpose pretty much right. Like one of the 0:02:52.200 --> 0:02:55.800 I think the handiest metaphors is that a social media 0:02:55.840 --> 0:03:00.840 app on your smartphone turns your smartphone into a tiny machine. Yes, 0:03:01.040 --> 0:03:04.919 but it's but while a Vegas slot machine is is 0:03:05.400 --> 0:03:09.160 programmed to steal all of your money. Uh, this slot machine, 0:03:09.160 --> 0:03:11.640 this tiny slot machine, is programmed to steal all of 0:03:11.680 --> 0:03:14.800 your time, your time and your attention. Yeah, it wants 0:03:14.880 --> 0:03:18.520 you using it as much as possible. And the numbers 0:03:18.520 --> 0:03:20.560 on this are kind of freaky, Like when when you 0:03:20.560 --> 0:03:23.480 actually measure how much time people spend on their smartphones, 0:03:24.160 --> 0:03:27.480 especially looking at apps like Facebook or you know, other 0:03:27.600 --> 0:03:30.640 social media apps, they don't usually like what they find 0:03:30.680 --> 0:03:33.360 out when those numbers come in, right. And certainly we 0:03:33.360 --> 0:03:35.240 do have tools on a lot of our smartphones now 0:03:35.280 --> 0:03:39.480 to track our screen time and to keep tabs on 0:03:39.520 --> 0:03:43.880 and even set up little barriers to excessive use. But 0:03:44.320 --> 0:03:46.520 as far as I know, like most of that stuff 0:03:46.560 --> 0:03:49.120 is still very voluntary. And then we're not doing this 0:03:49.480 --> 0:03:53.480 the default settings on a phone. Um or certainly when 0:03:53.480 --> 0:03:54.880 you get a new phone, you didn't tend to bring 0:03:54.920 --> 0:03:57.560 over your your sort of legacy settings from the former phone. 0:03:57.640 --> 0:04:00.800 So um, you know, I think there's a there's a 0:04:00.880 --> 0:04:04.280 huge argument to be made that that these companies are 0:04:04.280 --> 0:04:07.800 not really you know, going in head first in the 0:04:07.840 --> 0:04:11.160 battle to reduce your screen time, right. Uh. And then 0:04:11.200 --> 0:04:13.600 also we did a more recent episode called The Doppelganger 0:04:13.640 --> 0:04:16.760 Network where we talked about the jumping off point for 0:04:16.800 --> 0:04:19.760 that was an article that we read by Robert Zapolski, 0:04:19.920 --> 0:04:22.920 the neuro endo chronologist I think at Stanford and he 0:04:23.160 --> 0:04:26.039 uh then he made a comparison between the effects of 0:04:26.120 --> 0:04:30.599 social media use and and digital media more generally, and uh, 0:04:31.000 --> 0:04:34.720 the psychological conditions like cap craw delusion that caused this 0:04:34.920 --> 0:04:39.200 rift between recognition and familiarity in the brain. So it 0:04:39.240 --> 0:04:43.040 creates a kind of a kind of strange, alienated world 0:04:43.160 --> 0:04:48.120 where where normally you'd pair these experiences of cognitive recognition, 0:04:48.200 --> 0:04:50.279 you know, knowing that you recognize something you see, and 0:04:50.360 --> 0:04:53.120 the feeling of familiarity with it, but that is kind 0:04:53.120 --> 0:04:56.440 of torn asunder by the dynamics of social media. Yeah, 0:04:56.640 --> 0:04:59.920 and and so, I I don't think you know, the idea, 0:05:00.080 --> 0:05:04.400 this argument that, oh, so the social media is potentially dangerous, 0:05:04.440 --> 0:05:06.480 that it's that it has you know, ill effects. This 0:05:06.560 --> 0:05:09.839 is probably not new. I think everyone's heard somebody argue 0:05:09.839 --> 0:05:12.400 it to some extent, and we've even seen people make 0:05:12.440 --> 0:05:15.680 fun of the argument, like, for instance, one image that 0:05:15.720 --> 0:05:19.240 it frequently makes the round is uh is an old, 0:05:19.680 --> 0:05:22.680 old timey photograph of like a subway car or a 0:05:22.680 --> 0:05:26.599 train full of individuals, everybody reading a newspaper, everybody's face 0:05:26.640 --> 0:05:29.320 hidden in a newspaper, and then using this to make 0:05:29.360 --> 0:05:32.400 fun of the argument that you know, everybody's just plugged 0:05:32.400 --> 0:05:35.159 into their phones and they're not connecting with each other, 0:05:35.680 --> 0:05:37.800 as if to say, well, this was exactly the same thing, 0:05:37.880 --> 0:05:41.599 but it's not. I think it's it's definitely worth driving 0:05:41.640 --> 0:05:47.280 home that the type of uh, psychological involvement that's going 0:05:47.360 --> 0:05:51.200 on with the social media platform on a mobile device 0:05:51.880 --> 0:05:54.800 is entirely different than what you would find by just 0:05:54.960 --> 0:05:57.480 sticking your head into a book or a newspaper. A 0:05:57.560 --> 0:05:59.839 book or a newspaper is not a real time feedback 0:05:59.880 --> 0:06:02.880 to advice. Yeah, I mean, I think one thing that 0:06:02.880 --> 0:06:04.880 that that that kind of like poking fun at this 0:06:05.040 --> 0:06:07.680 argument does reveal is that you can take the argument 0:06:07.720 --> 0:06:10.119 too far and be kind of totalizing about it, because 0:06:10.200 --> 0:06:13.120 it's important to recognize that the reason people use these 0:06:13.120 --> 0:06:16.719 services are because they do provide something that people want. 0:06:16.880 --> 0:06:20.880 You know, people through social media are able to keep 0:06:20.960 --> 0:06:23.919 up with friendships that might have fallen by the wayside otherwise, 0:06:23.960 --> 0:06:27.520 you know, maybe long distance friendships. Uh. You know, these 0:06:27.560 --> 0:06:32.000 these these platforms and these devices do enable all kinds 0:06:32.080 --> 0:06:35.719 of things in people's lives that are valuable and good righting. 0:06:35.839 --> 0:06:38.080 And you can certainly go overboard and kind of a 0:06:38.160 --> 0:06:41.600 luddyite response to it and say, well, the internet is 0:06:41.640 --> 0:06:44.640 bad or technology is bad, uh, And I feel like 0:06:44.680 --> 0:06:47.320 everybody's gonna have varying opinions, Like to one extreme, you 0:06:47.360 --> 0:06:50.359 may be convinced that social media is uh, you know, 0:06:50.400 --> 0:06:52.320 you know, it's leaning more and more towards the self 0:06:52.320 --> 0:06:56.279 digestion of human civilization. Or you may see nothing wrong 0:06:56.279 --> 0:06:59.120 with social media, though you may say, look, Robert and Joe, 0:06:59.240 --> 0:07:02.120 I know I use my Instagram, I use my Facebook, 0:07:02.120 --> 0:07:04.599 I keep with up with a few friends, uh, you know, 0:07:04.640 --> 0:07:06.919 a few celebrities or a few bands or what have you. 0:07:06.960 --> 0:07:08.960 I get the news through it, and that's it. And 0:07:09.040 --> 0:07:14.040 it doesn't, you know, you know, greatly improve or harm 0:07:14.080 --> 0:07:18.000 my psychic experience of reality. Yeah, and if and if 0:07:18.040 --> 0:07:20.680 that's what you believe, our goal is not to convince 0:07:20.800 --> 0:07:24.120 you that, no, you don't understand it's actually ruining your life. 0:07:24.160 --> 0:07:27.080 I mean, you may very well have a perfectly healthy, 0:07:27.160 --> 0:07:30.600 limited relationship with social media, and you may be one 0:07:30.600 --> 0:07:32.480 of the people who's getting more out of it than 0:07:32.520 --> 0:07:35.239 it's getting out of you. But for a lot of people, 0:07:35.280 --> 0:07:37.000 I think we do want to make the case that 0:07:37.000 --> 0:07:39.320 that is not what's going on. Right I would say 0:07:39.320 --> 0:07:41.920 that most of us. Even if you you can say, 0:07:42.760 --> 0:07:45.360 you know, honestly that you have a healthy relationship with 0:07:45.400 --> 0:07:48.760 social media, you can probably not say the same for 0:07:48.800 --> 0:07:53.800 everyone in your circle. There there there's probably somebody or 0:07:53.960 --> 0:07:59.840 several people that the display signs of unhealthy usage. So 0:08:00.440 --> 0:08:02.760 in this episode, you know, we're gonna we're gonna look 0:08:02.760 --> 0:08:07.120 at some arguments against social media. Specifically, we're going to 0:08:07.160 --> 0:08:10.720 be discussing UH an author by the name of Jarren 0:08:10.800 --> 0:08:14.320 Lanier and his two thousand eighteen book Ten Arguments for 0:08:14.400 --> 0:08:17.520 Deleting Your Social Media Accounts right Now. It's a great title. 0:08:17.520 --> 0:08:19.480 It gets right to the point it does, and and 0:08:19.560 --> 0:08:22.760 it is a fabulous little book that Joe and I 0:08:22.840 --> 0:08:25.800 both both read for this episode. It's um it's short, 0:08:26.040 --> 0:08:28.920 It's something on the order of what hundred and forty 0:08:28.920 --> 0:08:32.480 six pages long. It's extremely accessible, Like he did not 0:08:32.880 --> 0:08:36.760 make this a you know, a high high level computer 0:08:36.880 --> 0:08:40.000 science intellectual argument. It is written so that I think 0:08:40.040 --> 0:08:43.480 pretty much anybody could understand it. It's very accessible, it's 0:08:43.640 --> 0:08:46.360 very ground level, and I think it makes a pretty 0:08:46.400 --> 0:08:50.080 compelling case that at least well he his argument is 0:08:50.120 --> 0:08:54.720 that social media in the business model that exists today 0:08:55.040 --> 0:08:58.120 is doing more harm than good, and our best way 0:08:58.160 --> 0:09:01.240 of fighting that harm is to have everybody get off 0:09:01.240 --> 0:09:05.760 of these platforms, because this will force the company is 0:09:05.800 --> 0:09:10.319 involved to actually implement changes, right and and so his 0:09:10.320 --> 0:09:13.720 His argument is not one against technology, and it's not 0:09:13.800 --> 0:09:18.320 even necessarily against one one against um, a certain form 0:09:18.360 --> 0:09:22.600 of social media. It's against a particular business model that 0:09:22.760 --> 0:09:26.280 powers social media. And that business model, I think is 0:09:26.320 --> 0:09:29.520 what he ends up calling the bummer business model. It's 0:09:29.520 --> 0:09:34.800 a business model that is paid for by behavioral modification. Yes, 0:09:34.960 --> 0:09:39.040 bummer be you in any R, which Linear says stands 0:09:39.040 --> 0:09:43.120 for behaviors of users modified and made into an empire 0:09:43.280 --> 0:09:47.440 for rent. It's clever having an acronym because sticks with 0:09:47.480 --> 0:09:49.480 you and uh and yeah, it's clever and it's a 0:09:49.520 --> 0:09:51.240 little bit funny. And and that can be said for 0:09:51.280 --> 0:09:54.560 the entire book, despite being a fairly serious topic with 0:09:54.600 --> 0:09:59.400 some potentially serious ramifications for humanity at large and for 0:09:59.600 --> 0:10:03.600 into the dual um you know, self worth, it is 0:10:03.760 --> 0:10:05.920 a humorous read at times, and it is it is 0:10:06.000 --> 0:10:08.880 fun to read, So I can't recommend it highly enough. 0:10:09.000 --> 0:10:10.680 There's a book you can read on the train and 0:10:10.720 --> 0:10:14.280 the plane, on a toilet. Uh, you know it just 0:10:14.360 --> 0:10:17.440 it makes for a great but important casual read. Yeah, 0:10:17.480 --> 0:10:19.240 and we we've talked about maybe getting him on the 0:10:19.240 --> 0:10:21.320 podcast sometime soon, and that would be great to have 0:10:21.360 --> 0:10:23.360 a conversation with him, But today we just wanted to 0:10:23.360 --> 0:10:25.600 talk about maybe a couple of the arguments that he 0:10:25.640 --> 0:10:28.440 brings up in the book and and our thoughts about them. Yeah, 0:10:28.440 --> 0:10:31.839 we're not gonna attempt to regurgitate the entire book because 0:10:31.840 --> 0:10:36.079 the book uh is already already speaks for itself. So 0:10:36.320 --> 0:10:40.599 we'll start though, by just talking about Jarren Lanier himself. 0:10:40.640 --> 0:10:43.280 You might be familiar with him already, perhaps you're not. 0:10:43.640 --> 0:10:45.640 Perhaps you've just read his name and thought it was 0:10:45.679 --> 0:10:48.960 pronounced Jared Lantier, which is how I've been pronouncing in 0:10:49.000 --> 0:10:50.560 my mind. That's how I've said it on the show 0:10:50.600 --> 0:10:54.800 a lot. But anyway, he is a scientist, a musician, 0:10:54.840 --> 0:10:58.600 and a writer. He is a major figure in the 0:10:58.600 --> 0:11:02.679 realm of virtual reality, having founded the VR company VPL 0:11:02.800 --> 0:11:05.880 Research in the nineteen eighties, and while he didn't coin 0:11:05.960 --> 0:11:09.640 the term virtual reality, this is generally attributed to French 0:11:09.679 --> 0:11:15.040 playwright Anton and R. Toad In, he did popularize it. 0:11:15.480 --> 0:11:19.800 He helped create the first commercial VR products and introduced avatars, 0:11:20.120 --> 0:11:25.239 multiperson virtual world experiences, and prototypes of major VR applications 0:11:25.240 --> 0:11:28.520 such as surgical simulation. He was involved in the creation 0:11:28.559 --> 0:11:31.880 of the Nintendo Power Glove. Yeah, now you're playing with 0:11:31.920 --> 0:11:34.439 power which you know, which I have to say, the 0:11:34.480 --> 0:11:36.480 power glove. I never had one as a kid, but 0:11:36.520 --> 0:11:39.560 I saw people with them, I knew people who had them, 0:11:39.640 --> 0:11:42.719 and it it was this this instrument of wonder. I 0:11:42.760 --> 0:11:45.920 don't think it was all that practical as a gaming device, 0:11:46.040 --> 0:11:48.360 but I think it inspired a lot of people. And 0:11:48.400 --> 0:11:52.320 I also love seeing, especially nineteen nineties science fiction where 0:11:52.320 --> 0:11:54.600 they have reused a power glove as part of like 0:11:54.640 --> 0:11:58.679 a cybernetic you know, outfit for somebody. Anyway, he was 0:11:58.720 --> 0:12:02.120 also involved in the with the creation of the headset, 0:12:02.160 --> 0:12:05.640 apparently for the film The lawnmower Man. So you're really 0:12:05.640 --> 0:12:07.600 bringing out the hits here. Yeah, And I think this 0:12:07.720 --> 0:12:10.480 is probably not the stuff that usually gets highlighted about 0:12:10.520 --> 0:12:12.520 his career, but it's this, you know, some of the 0:12:12.559 --> 0:12:14.560 stuff that I think some of our listeners might be 0:12:14.840 --> 0:12:16.960 familiar with. Exactly. I should point out that he's not 0:12:17.080 --> 0:12:20.680 credited on lawnmower Man, but he does get a thanks 0:12:20.800 --> 0:12:25.400 on the far Superior Sci Fi Work Minority Report. Okay, 0:12:25.679 --> 0:12:27.920 uh he But more to the point, though he's an 0:12:27.960 --> 0:12:32.280 author of several books, such as The two thousand six 0:12:32.840 --> 0:12:36.920 Information is an Alienated Experience you are not a gadget 0:12:36.920 --> 0:12:39.840 of Manifesto from two thousand ten, who owns the Future 0:12:40.000 --> 0:12:44.680 from and Dawn of the New Everything from seventeen. I 0:12:44.720 --> 0:12:48.200 tend to think of him kind of as a technology philosopher, 0:12:48.320 --> 0:12:50.760 and I really like a lot of his approach because 0:12:51.120 --> 0:12:56.320 it's got a healthy skepticism about over hyping technology and 0:12:56.320 --> 0:12:57.920 what it can do. And at the same time, he's 0:12:57.920 --> 0:13:01.400 not anti technology. He's clearly somebody who loves digital technology, 0:13:01.480 --> 0:13:03.880 loves computers. You know, he's worked with them his whole career, 0:13:04.320 --> 0:13:06.400 and so he doesn't end up saying, through your smartphone 0:13:06.400 --> 0:13:08.480 in the fire, flush it down the toilet, smash it 0:13:08.520 --> 0:13:12.240 with a hammer. It's not an anti technology message. He 0:13:12.320 --> 0:13:16.960 actually has a very specifically tailored message trying to identify 0:13:17.040 --> 0:13:21.160 exactly what it is about the social media platforms specifically 0:13:21.200 --> 0:13:24.520 as they exist today that's causing problems for us and 0:13:24.559 --> 0:13:27.240 for our society and how could they be changed. Yeah, 0:13:27.320 --> 0:13:30.640 ultimately he is he's an optimist. Like he's he's presenting 0:13:30.800 --> 0:13:34.400 an optimistic view of the future, like certainly highlighting problems, 0:13:34.520 --> 0:13:37.319 but discussing how we can address them, which I love. 0:13:37.400 --> 0:13:41.040 I I feel like I've spent too much of my life, um, 0:13:41.080 --> 0:13:44.959 you know, looking at more pessimistic views of reality and 0:13:45.040 --> 0:13:47.960 dystopian views of reality, and I've gotten to the point 0:13:48.040 --> 0:13:51.640 where those just don't serve me anymore. So I far 0:13:51.760 --> 0:13:55.880 prefer reading an author like uh, like Jerry Lynn here. 0:13:56.840 --> 0:13:59.280 So the booking question, I have to talk about the 0:13:59.559 --> 0:14:02.480 cover of it, because the cover is is very simple, 0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:06.200 you know, just a black and red text on a 0:14:06.240 --> 0:14:09.600 white background and a silhouette of a cat walking off 0:14:09.720 --> 0:14:11.480 the cover of the book. And the cat is a 0:14:11.520 --> 0:14:14.400 central metaphor in the book, right because, as he points out, 0:14:14.559 --> 0:14:17.040 you know, as much as we love dogs, I love dogs, 0:14:17.280 --> 0:14:19.200 you do, you do love dogs, and I love dogs too, 0:14:19.360 --> 0:14:22.000 just as I don't own one. But as much as 0:14:22.040 --> 0:14:26.320 we love dogs, we domesticated the dog. The cat arguably 0:14:26.440 --> 0:14:30.920 domesticated itself. Uh you know, it interacts in our lives 0:14:31.040 --> 0:14:34.600 more on its terms. You you were at great pains 0:14:34.680 --> 0:14:37.960 to attempt to train the cat, as anyone who's ever 0:14:38.200 --> 0:14:40.720 certainly you know, tried to to you know, shoot a 0:14:40.760 --> 0:14:45.600 film about cats can attest to um. So, Lanier argues 0:14:45.640 --> 0:14:49.320 that social media is essentially turning us into well trained dogs, 0:14:49.720 --> 0:14:52.240 but we should really strive to be cats able to 0:14:52.280 --> 0:14:55.600 dictate our involvement in the relationship at hand, to scratch 0:14:55.640 --> 0:14:57.600 the hand that feeds us, if we so wish, to 0:14:57.720 --> 0:15:02.680 sleep wherever we choose, refuse food, walk on all the furniture. Ultimately, 0:15:02.880 --> 0:15:04.960 we should we should want to be cats. We don't 0:15:05.040 --> 0:15:08.240 want to be social media's dog. Yeah. And also, I mean, 0:15:08.320 --> 0:15:11.840 while he's advising people to quit social media, he's making 0:15:11.880 --> 0:15:14.760 an argument and he's not it's not a totalizing argument. 0:15:14.760 --> 0:15:18.760 I mean he realizes that different people are in different circumstances, uh, 0:15:18.800 --> 0:15:22.920 that it's it's not a choice that will work for everybody, right, Like, 0:15:22.960 --> 0:15:25.440 he's very clear on the on the fact that quitting 0:15:25.480 --> 0:15:28.640 social media is a privilege and not everybody is able 0:15:28.680 --> 0:15:30.320 to do it. A lot of people, uh you know, 0:15:30.400 --> 0:15:32.920 own a business or or or part of their job 0:15:33.320 --> 0:15:36.120 entails them using social media. I know some people like that, 0:15:36.480 --> 0:15:38.720 and they're just they're trapped in they're trapped in it, 0:15:38.880 --> 0:15:40.760 like you just can't walk away from it, or you 0:15:40.840 --> 0:15:43.840 might be shackled to it. More socially, like, well, if 0:15:43.880 --> 0:15:46.480 I stop using uh, you know, Facebook, how am I 0:15:46.480 --> 0:15:49.080 gonna connect connect with my friends who all live in 0:15:49.120 --> 0:15:50.840 another city. And I just moved to a place where 0:15:50.840 --> 0:15:53.440 I don't know anybody, Um, you know, they're all these 0:15:53.520 --> 0:15:55.720 arguments to be made, and so he's not. He's not, 0:15:55.880 --> 0:15:58.440 you know, drawing this firm line in the sand and saying, 0:15:58.560 --> 0:16:01.520 you know, the winners over here, users over there, or 0:16:01.520 --> 0:16:04.160 anything of the of the sword. And he's certainly not 0:16:04.320 --> 0:16:06.400 arguing that, you know, we should we should all go 0:16:06.480 --> 0:16:09.200 and make a big dramatic to do about quitting social 0:16:09.200 --> 0:16:11.560 media either because I think I think we all see 0:16:11.600 --> 0:16:13.920 that occasionally on our feet to oh, that's the most 0:16:13.960 --> 0:16:16.800 embarrassing thing when you see somebody post a lot about 0:16:16.800 --> 0:16:19.080 how they're quitting, and then they quit for a week 0:16:19.160 --> 0:16:24.080 and then they're back. Yeah. Yeah. And in fact, I 0:16:24.080 --> 0:16:27.560 actually I shared I shared something about this book on 0:16:27.600 --> 0:16:31.920 my private social media feed, and immediately like somebody was 0:16:32.000 --> 0:16:35.200 like calling me out for having posted about quitting social 0:16:35.200 --> 0:16:38.760 media on social media. But of course I think what's 0:16:38.800 --> 0:16:40.200 wrong with that? I mean, where are we going to 0:16:40.240 --> 0:16:43.480 talk about leaving social media but social media to a 0:16:43.480 --> 0:16:47.040 certain extent um. And and also well, I mean this 0:16:47.120 --> 0:16:51.040 episode where we're discussing his arguments again, you know, we're 0:16:51.040 --> 0:16:53.480 not necessarily saying everybody's got to get off social media. 0:16:53.560 --> 0:16:56.320 But I do think these are some interesting arguments, very 0:16:56.320 --> 0:17:00.640 worth considering. Um, we're discussing these on an episode that 0:17:00.680 --> 0:17:03.040 will be promoted on social media because that is part 0:17:03.080 --> 0:17:06.399 of the distribution business model of this podcast exactly. It's like, 0:17:06.480 --> 0:17:09.160 this is how, you know, one way that we reach listeners, 0:17:09.680 --> 0:17:12.119 and if we don't do this, it won't reach as 0:17:12.160 --> 0:17:15.239 many listeners. So I don't know, how do you how 0:17:15.280 --> 0:17:17.560 do you balance That's like, are you actually doing better 0:17:17.600 --> 0:17:19.679 if you say, well, let's not post the episode on 0:17:19.800 --> 0:17:22.880 social media so fewer people will hear it. Yeah, thus 0:17:22.960 --> 0:17:26.000 is the world? Thus have we made it? But at 0:17:26.000 --> 0:17:29.359 any rate, Linear also ultimately says like, hey, I'm not 0:17:29.400 --> 0:17:32.880 even saying quit social media forever. Um, you know, because 0:17:32.920 --> 0:17:36.440 ultimately he's hope, he's hopeful that social media can be corrected, 0:17:36.520 --> 0:17:38.320 that we can come back to a version of social 0:17:38.320 --> 0:17:41.479 media media that is not harmful to us in so 0:17:41.520 --> 0:17:44.240 many ways. And then also he's saying, like, you know, 0:17:44.320 --> 0:17:46.280 quit for a while and come back. That's the only 0:17:46.280 --> 0:17:48.600 way you'll you'll have any kind of like insight on 0:17:48.680 --> 0:17:51.080 what it's doing to you, Like this will help give 0:17:51.119 --> 0:17:54.800 you the uh, you know, the vantage point by which 0:17:54.840 --> 0:17:59.840 to to understand the interaction between your life and these 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:02.399 bummer systems. All right, well, maybe we should take a 0:18:02.480 --> 0:18:04.240 quick break and then when we come back we can 0:18:04.320 --> 0:18:06.720 discuss a couple of the arguments from the book and 0:18:06.760 --> 0:18:12.879 our thoughts about them. Than all right, we're back. So again, 0:18:13.280 --> 0:18:17.160 the book that we're discussing is uh Journalinears ten arguments 0:18:17.160 --> 0:18:19.639 for deleting your Social media accounts. Right now, you're probably 0:18:19.640 --> 0:18:22.439 wondering what are those ten arguments. We're not going to 0:18:22.520 --> 0:18:24.800 regurgitate all ten arguments here. If you want to know 0:18:24.840 --> 0:18:27.120 what they are, you should pick up a copy of 0:18:27.119 --> 0:18:30.040 it because without even opening the book, all ten are 0:18:30.119 --> 0:18:32.479 listed on the back right, which is which is prob 0:18:32.680 --> 0:18:35.000 was handy. You know, you can just you can instantly 0:18:35.000 --> 0:18:37.320 see what you're in for. We're gonna be talking about 0:18:37.720 --> 0:18:40.760 i think basically four of the arguments, and uh In 0:18:40.880 --> 0:18:43.479 discussing them a bit here for you, yeah, someone more 0:18:43.560 --> 0:18:46.240 depth than others. Now, one thing that we should talk 0:18:46.240 --> 0:18:48.879 about upfront, because it's sort of a foundational argument that 0:18:48.880 --> 0:18:51.280 feeds into all the others, is this point that, in 0:18:51.440 --> 0:18:55.560 Lanear's words, due to social media, you are partially losing 0:18:55.600 --> 0:18:59.640 your free will. Uh So, one of his core arguments 0:18:59.680 --> 0:19:02.359 on which many of the others rest is that social 0:19:02.400 --> 0:19:08.000 media is at heart a mass program of behavior modification 0:19:08.119 --> 0:19:11.679 for rent. That is how these companies make money. So 0:19:11.720 --> 0:19:14.520 if your Facebook, the way that you make money is 0:19:14.560 --> 0:19:19.200 that people pay you to have some kind of influence 0:19:19.359 --> 0:19:23.199 on users of Facebook, and that influence could be a 0:19:23.320 --> 0:19:26.719 very traditional, normal style of advertising, the kind of thing 0:19:26.760 --> 0:19:29.240 that you know that happens everywhere, and most people aren't 0:19:29.240 --> 0:19:32.000 bothered by, right, because it's clear what's happening. You're just 0:19:32.080 --> 0:19:35.040 seeing an ad for a product that somebody thinks you 0:19:35.119 --> 0:19:37.879 might want, and you know, there's the ad and you 0:19:37.960 --> 0:19:40.679 might go by it. That's you know, we're not generally 0:19:40.800 --> 0:19:43.399 very bothered by that. Right. Always reminds me of the 0:19:43.400 --> 0:19:47.160 moment in Futurama where a fry encounters in the future 0:19:47.359 --> 0:19:50.680 and advertisement in his dream. That's a little creepier. We 0:19:50.720 --> 0:19:52.720 find it intrusive. And he says, you know, we didn't 0:19:52.760 --> 0:19:55.919 have that in my time. We just had advertisements, you know, 0:19:56.000 --> 0:19:58.040 all over the place and in the sky and on 0:19:58.119 --> 0:20:01.080 the billboard. I mean, certainly we do even without social media. 0:20:01.119 --> 0:20:03.960 We live in an age of you just ubiquitous advertising. Yeah, 0:20:04.000 --> 0:20:07.320 and you know that is this is one thing that 0:20:07.359 --> 0:20:10.760 he does sort of attack is the problem that the 0:20:10.920 --> 0:20:15.359 web arose on an advertising pay for model. Uh. You know, 0:20:15.720 --> 0:20:17.600 back in the early days of the web, there was 0:20:17.680 --> 0:20:20.520 this idea that everything needed to be free to access. 0:20:20.600 --> 0:20:23.800 You couldn't charge people to get stuff on the web. 0:20:24.040 --> 0:20:26.359 But then how do you pay for producing that stuff. 0:20:26.400 --> 0:20:28.280 Somebody's got to make it, you know that they've got 0:20:28.320 --> 0:20:30.920 to get paid somehow. So what happens, Well, you'd pay 0:20:30.960 --> 0:20:33.760 for it by showing advertising along with the thing, and 0:20:33.760 --> 0:20:36.199 the advertisers would pay for what you're seeing. Right And 0:20:36.240 --> 0:20:38.800 of course, again coming back to podcasting, we're not blind 0:20:38.920 --> 0:20:41.040 to the fact that that's essentially what you have with 0:20:41.080 --> 0:20:44.320 this podcast. This podcast is provided to you for free, 0:20:44.680 --> 0:20:47.000 but you have to put up with advertisements. Right now, 0:20:47.560 --> 0:20:49.879 I don't really mind that from an advertiser, from a 0:20:49.960 --> 0:20:52.560 from a podcast point of view, because when I listen 0:20:52.600 --> 0:20:55.200 to podcasts and when I make a podcast, I generally 0:20:55.240 --> 0:20:59.040 think the advertising that's happening there is fairly straightforward. It's 0:20:59.080 --> 0:21:02.160 pretty clear what's going on. Somebody's pitching you a product. 0:21:02.800 --> 0:21:05.400 I mean, likewise, on television, of course, television start off 0:21:05.400 --> 0:21:07.320 with the same model and he discusses this. You know, 0:21:07.440 --> 0:21:10.239 it's like, here's the signal. Here's some programming, but here 0:21:10.240 --> 0:21:14.760 are also some advertisements. But generally speaking, without getting into 0:21:14.800 --> 0:21:16.640 some of the you know, the trickier forms of television 0:21:16.640 --> 0:21:20.080 advertising and product integration and so forth, you're you're still 0:21:20.119 --> 0:21:22.840 dealing with the situation where it's like I'm watching a show. Okay, 0:21:22.880 --> 0:21:25.840 now I'm watching an ad. Now I'm watching the show again. Right. 0:21:25.920 --> 0:21:29.120 But even when even with other things, you know, like uh, 0:21:29.440 --> 0:21:32.160 sponsored content and stuff like that, I mean, I think 0:21:32.240 --> 0:21:37.280