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Speaker 1: Hey, you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My

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Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday.

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Speaker 1: Tabnico into the Vault for an older episode of the show.

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Speaker 1: This one originally aired on August six, nineteen, and it

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Speaker 1: was called Social Media Is a Bummer. This is where

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Speaker 1: we talked about Jarn Lanier's book, which was highly critical

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Speaker 1: of social media. That's right, Ten arguments for deleting your

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Speaker 1: social media accounts right now. I think it's an excellent

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Speaker 1: food for thought as we continue through. Welcome to Stuff

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Speaker 1: to Blow Your Mind, a production of I Heart Radios

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Speaker 1: How Stuff Work. Hey, you welcome to Stuff to Blow

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Speaker 1: your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick,

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Speaker 1: and we're back to a subject that may be familiar

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Speaker 1: to you if you've been listening to the show for

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Speaker 1: a bit. It's the next battle in the war against

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Speaker 1: the Machines. That's right, you know, as we've already got

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Speaker 1: us in the show, and I think it's obvious to

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Speaker 1: most of our listeners the wonders of interconnectedness that the

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Speaker 1: web have have have given us have also unleashed some

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Speaker 1: less than satisfying realities. You know, we we worry about

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Speaker 1: smartphone addiction and the degree to which the these devices

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Speaker 1: and the many apps they have on them have been

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Speaker 1: engineered to gain our attention. And then there's been growing

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Speaker 1: attention given to the role social media has in in

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Speaker 1: you know, playing into you know, corporate and state manipulation

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Speaker 1: and endangering democracy, our personal freedom, and our happiness. We've

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Speaker 1: we've recorded a few different notable episodes on these topics. Right, So,

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Speaker 1: I know you and Christian a while back did an episode.

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Speaker 1: Now this was years ago now, so that the research

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Speaker 1: has come a long way since then, I think, but

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Speaker 1: you did an episode on what the measurable psychological effects

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Speaker 1: of social media were, Uh, and there's still I think

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Speaker 1: this is still a developing field. Like I notice a

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Speaker 1: lot of conflicting findings when I read upon this, Like

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Speaker 1: is social media making us more lonely, more depressed? Whatever?

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Speaker 1: It seems like the answer to that question is it's complicated, right,

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Speaker 1: And and I think we'll discuss a little bit this

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Speaker 1: later on too. That you know, it also depends on

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Speaker 1: how you're using social media, what your role is, or

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Speaker 1: using social media is part of your job, etcetera. Yeah, Uh,

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Speaker 1: then we also you and I. Robert did a couple

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Speaker 1: of episodes within the past couple of years called the

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Speaker 1: Great Eyeball Wars that were primarily about the attention economy,

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Speaker 1: about the fact that our our devices, and specifically especially

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Speaker 1: like social media platforms on those devices, but other platforms

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Speaker 1: also are because they make their money by getting you

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Speaker 1: to use them and pay attention through you know, advertiser dollars.

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Speaker 1: Like you are the product on these platforms. You're not

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Speaker 1: the customer. Uh, and your attention is what is being

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Speaker 1: sold to the advertisers. They're addicting us, and they're addicting

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Speaker 1: us on purpose pretty much right. Like one of the

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Speaker 1: I think the handiest metaphors is that a social media

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Speaker 1: app on your smartphone turns your smartphone into a tiny machine. Yes,

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Speaker 1: but it's but while a Vegas slot machine is is

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Speaker 1: programmed to steal all of your money. Uh, this slot machine,

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Speaker 1: this tiny slot machine, is programmed to steal all of

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Speaker 1: your time, your time and your attention. Yeah, it wants

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Speaker 1: you using it as much as possible. And the numbers

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Speaker 1: on this are kind of freaky, Like when when you

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Speaker 1: actually measure how much time people spend on their smartphones,

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Speaker 1: especially looking at apps like Facebook or you know, other

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Speaker 1: social media apps, they don't usually like what they find

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Speaker 1: out when those numbers come in, right. And certainly we

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Speaker 1: do have tools on a lot of our smartphones now

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Speaker 1: to track our screen time and to keep tabs on

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Speaker 1: and even set up little barriers to excessive use. But

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Speaker 1: as far as I know, like most of that stuff

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Speaker 1: is still very voluntary. And then we're not doing this

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Speaker 1: the default settings on a phone. Um or certainly when

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Speaker 1: you get a new phone, you didn't tend to bring

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Speaker 1: over your your sort of legacy settings from the former phone.

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Speaker 1: So um, you know, I think there's a there's a

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Speaker 1: huge argument to be made that that these companies are

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Speaker 1: not really you know, going in head first in the

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Speaker 1: battle to reduce your screen time, right. Uh. And then

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Speaker 1: also we did a more recent episode called The Doppelganger

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Speaker 1: Network where we talked about the jumping off point for

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Speaker 1: that was an article that we read by Robert Zapolski,

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Speaker 1: the neuro endo chronologist I think at Stanford and he

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Speaker 1: uh then he made a comparison between the effects of

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Speaker 1: social media use and and digital media more generally, and uh,

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Speaker 1: the psychological conditions like cap craw delusion that caused this

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Speaker 1: rift between recognition and familiarity in the brain. So it

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Speaker 1: creates a kind of a kind of strange, alienated world

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Speaker 1: where where normally you'd pair these experiences of cognitive recognition,

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Speaker 1: you know, knowing that you recognize something you see, and

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Speaker 1: the feeling of familiarity with it, but that is kind

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Speaker 1: of torn asunder by the dynamics of social media. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and and so, I I don't think you know, the idea,

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Speaker 1: this argument that, oh, so the social media is potentially dangerous,

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Speaker 1: that it's that it has you know, ill effects. This

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Speaker 1: is probably not new. I think everyone's heard somebody argue

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Speaker 1: it to some extent, and we've even seen people make

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Speaker 1: fun of the argument, like, for instance, one image that

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Speaker 1: it frequently makes the round is uh is an old,

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Speaker 1: old timey photograph of like a subway car or a

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Speaker 1: train full of individuals, everybody reading a newspaper, everybody's face

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Speaker 1: hidden in a newspaper, and then using this to make

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Speaker 1: fun of the argument that you know, everybody's just plugged

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Speaker 1: into their phones and they're not connecting with each other,

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Speaker 1: as if to say, well, this was exactly the same thing,

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Speaker 1: but it's not. I think it's it's definitely worth driving

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Speaker 1: home that the type of uh, psychological involvement that's going

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Speaker 1: on with the social media platform on a mobile device

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Speaker 1: is entirely different than what you would find by just

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Speaker 1: sticking your head into a book or a newspaper. A

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Speaker 1: book or a newspaper is not a real time feedback

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Speaker 1: to advice. Yeah, I mean, I think one thing that

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Speaker 1: that that that kind of like poking fun at this

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Speaker 1: argument does reveal is that you can take the argument

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Speaker 1: too far and be kind of totalizing about it, because

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Speaker 1: it's important to recognize that the reason people use these

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Speaker 1: services are because they do provide something that people want.

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Speaker 1: You know, people through social media are able to keep

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Speaker 1: up with friendships that might have fallen by the wayside otherwise,

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Speaker 1: you know, maybe long distance friendships. Uh. You know, these

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Speaker 1: these these platforms and these devices do enable all kinds

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Speaker 1: of things in people's lives that are valuable and good righting.

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Speaker 1: And you can certainly go overboard and kind of a

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Speaker 1: luddyite response to it and say, well, the internet is

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Speaker 1: bad or technology is bad, uh, And I feel like

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Speaker 1: everybody's gonna have varying opinions, Like to one extreme, you

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Speaker 1: may be convinced that social media is uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's leaning more and more towards the self

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Speaker 1: digestion of human civilization. Or you may see nothing wrong

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Speaker 1: with social media, though you may say, look, Robert and Joe,

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Speaker 1: I know I use my Instagram, I use my Facebook,

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Speaker 1: I keep with up with a few friends, uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: a few celebrities or a few bands or what have you.

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Speaker 1: I get the news through it, and that's it. And

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Speaker 1: it doesn't, you know, you know, greatly improve or harm

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Speaker 1: my psychic experience of reality. Yeah, and if and if

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Speaker 1: that's what you believe, our goal is not to convince

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Speaker 1: you that, no, you don't understand it's actually ruining your life.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you may very well have a perfectly healthy,

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Speaker 1: limited relationship with social media, and you may be one

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Speaker 1: of the people who's getting more out of it than

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Speaker 1: it's getting out of you. But for a lot of people,

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Speaker 1: I think we do want to make the case that

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Speaker 1: that is not what's going on. Right I would say

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Speaker 1: that most of us. Even if you you can say,

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Speaker 1: you know, honestly that you have a healthy relationship with

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Speaker 1: social media, you can probably not say the same for

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Speaker 1: everyone in your circle. There there there's probably somebody or

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Speaker 1: several people that the display signs of unhealthy usage. So

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Speaker 1: in this episode, you know, we're gonna we're gonna look

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Speaker 1: at some arguments against social media. Specifically, we're going to

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Speaker 1: be discussing UH an author by the name of Jarren

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Speaker 1: Lanier and his two thousand eighteen book Ten Arguments for

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Speaker 1: Deleting Your Social Media Accounts right Now. It's a great title.

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Speaker 1: It gets right to the point it does, and and

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Speaker 1: it is a fabulous little book that Joe and I

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Speaker 1: both both read for this episode. It's um it's short,

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Speaker 1: It's something on the order of what hundred and forty

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Speaker 1: six pages long. It's extremely accessible, Like he did not

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Speaker 1: make this a you know, a high high level computer

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Speaker 1: science intellectual argument. It is written so that I think

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Speaker 1: pretty much anybody could understand it. It's very accessible, it's

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Speaker 1: very ground level, and I think it makes a pretty

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Speaker 1: compelling case that at least well he his argument is

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Speaker 1: that social media in the business model that exists today

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Speaker 1: is doing more harm than good, and our best way

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Speaker 1: of fighting that harm is to have everybody get off

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Speaker 1: of these platforms, because this will force the company is

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Speaker 1: involved to actually implement changes, right and and so his

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Speaker 1: His argument is not one against technology, and it's not

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Speaker 1: even necessarily against one one against um, a certain form

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Speaker 1: of social media. It's against a particular business model that

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Speaker 1: powers social media. And that business model, I think is

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Speaker 1: what he ends up calling the bummer business model. It's

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Speaker 1: a business model that is paid for by behavioral modification. Yes,

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Speaker 1: bummer be you in any R, which Linear says stands

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Speaker 1: for behaviors of users modified and made into an empire

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Speaker 1: for rent. It's clever having an acronym because sticks with

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Speaker 1: you and uh and yeah, it's clever and it's a

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Speaker 1: little bit funny. And and that can be said for

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Speaker 1: the entire book, despite being a fairly serious topic with

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Speaker 1: some potentially serious ramifications for humanity at large and for

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Speaker 1: into the dual um you know, self worth, it is

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Speaker 1: a humorous read at times, and it is it is

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Speaker 1: fun to read, So I can't recommend it highly enough.

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Speaker 1: There's a book you can read on the train and

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Speaker 1: the plane, on a toilet. Uh, you know it just

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Speaker 1: it makes for a great but important casual read. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and we we've talked about maybe getting him on the

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Speaker 1: podcast sometime soon, and that would be great to have

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Speaker 1: a conversation with him, But today we just wanted to

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Speaker 1: talk about maybe a couple of the arguments that he

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Speaker 1: brings up in the book and and our thoughts about them. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we're not gonna attempt to regurgitate the entire book because

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Speaker 1: the book uh is already already speaks for itself. So

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Speaker 1: we'll start though, by just talking about Jarren Lanier himself.

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Speaker 1: You might be familiar with him already, perhaps you're not.

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Speaker 1: Perhaps you've just read his name and thought it was

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Speaker 1: pronounced Jared Lantier, which is how I've been pronouncing in

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Speaker 1: my mind. That's how I've said it on the show

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Speaker 1: a lot. But anyway, he is a scientist, a musician,

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Speaker 1: and a writer. He is a major figure in the

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Speaker 1: realm of virtual reality, having founded the VR company VPL

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Speaker 1: Research in the nineteen eighties, and while he didn't coin

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Speaker 1: the term virtual reality, this is generally attributed to French

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Speaker 1: playwright Anton and R. Toad In, he did popularize it.

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Speaker 1: He helped create the first commercial VR products and introduced avatars,

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Speaker 1: multiperson virtual world experiences, and prototypes of major VR applications

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Speaker 1: such as surgical simulation. He was involved in the creation

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Speaker 1: of the Nintendo Power Glove. Yeah, now you're playing with

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Speaker 1: power which you know, which I have to say, the

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Speaker 1: power glove. I never had one as a kid, but

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Speaker 1: I saw people with them, I knew people who had them,

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Speaker 1: and it it was this this instrument of wonder. I

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Speaker 1: don't think it was all that practical as a gaming device,

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Speaker 1: but I think it inspired a lot of people. And

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Speaker 1: I also love seeing, especially nineteen nineties science fiction where

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Speaker 1: they have reused a power glove as part of like

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Speaker 1: a cybernetic you know, outfit for somebody. Anyway, he was

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Speaker 1: also involved in the with the creation of the headset,

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Speaker 1: apparently for the film The lawnmower Man. So you're really

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Speaker 1: bringing out the hits here. Yeah, And I think this

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Speaker 1: is probably not the stuff that usually gets highlighted about

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Speaker 1: his career, but it's this, you know, some of the

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Speaker 1: stuff that I think some of our listeners might be

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Speaker 1: familiar with. Exactly. I should point out that he's not

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Speaker 1: credited on lawnmower Man, but he does get a thanks

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Speaker 1: on the far Superior Sci Fi Work Minority Report. Okay,

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Speaker 1: uh he But more to the point, though he's an

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Speaker 1: author of several books, such as The two thousand six

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Speaker 1: Information is an Alienated Experience you are not a gadget

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Speaker 1: of Manifesto from two thousand ten, who owns the Future

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Speaker 1: from and Dawn of the New Everything from seventeen. I

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Speaker 1: tend to think of him kind of as a technology philosopher,

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Speaker 1: and I really like a lot of his approach because

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Speaker 1: it's got a healthy skepticism about over hyping technology and

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Speaker 1: what it can do. And at the same time, he's

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Speaker 1: not anti technology. He's clearly somebody who loves digital technology,

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Speaker 1: loves computers. You know, he's worked with them his whole career,

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Speaker 1: and so he doesn't end up saying, through your smartphone

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Speaker 1: in the fire, flush it down the toilet, smash it

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Speaker 1: with a hammer. It's not an anti technology message. He

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Speaker 1: actually has a very specifically tailored message trying to identify

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Speaker 1: exactly what it is about the social media platforms specifically

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Speaker 1: as they exist today that's causing problems for us and

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Speaker 1: for our society and how could they be changed. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: ultimately he is he's an optimist. Like he's he's presenting

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Speaker 1: an optimistic view of the future, like certainly highlighting problems,

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Speaker 1: but discussing how we can address them, which I love.

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Speaker 1: I I feel like I've spent too much of my life, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, looking at more pessimistic views of reality and

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Speaker 1: dystopian views of reality, and I've gotten to the point

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Speaker 1: where those just don't serve me anymore. So I far

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Speaker 1: prefer reading an author like uh, like Jerry Lynn here.

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Speaker 1: So the booking question, I have to talk about the

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Speaker 1: cover of it, because the cover is is very simple,

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Speaker 1: you know, just a black and red text on a

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Speaker 1: white background and a silhouette of a cat walking off

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Speaker 1: the cover of the book. And the cat is a

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Speaker 1: central metaphor in the book, right because, as he points out,

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Speaker 1: you know, as much as we love dogs, I love dogs,

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Speaker 1: you do, you do love dogs, and I love dogs too,

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Speaker 1: just as I don't own one. But as much as

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Speaker 1: we love dogs, we domesticated the dog. The cat arguably

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Speaker 1: domesticated itself. Uh you know, it interacts in our lives

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Speaker 1: more on its terms. You you were at great pains

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Speaker 1: to attempt to train the cat, as anyone who's ever

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Speaker 1: certainly you know, tried to to you know, shoot a

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Speaker 1: film about cats can attest to um. So, Lanier argues

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Speaker 1: that social media is essentially turning us into well trained dogs,

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Speaker 1: but we should really strive to be cats able to

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Speaker 1: dictate our involvement in the relationship at hand, to scratch

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Speaker 1: the hand that feeds us, if we so wish, to

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Speaker 1: sleep wherever we choose, refuse food, walk on all the furniture. Ultimately,

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Speaker 1: we should we should want to be cats. We don't

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Speaker 1: want to be social media's dog. Yeah. And also, I mean,

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Speaker 1: while he's advising people to quit social media, he's making

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Speaker 1: an argument and he's not it's not a totalizing argument.

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Speaker 1: I mean he realizes that different people are in different circumstances, uh,

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Speaker 1: that it's it's not a choice that will work for everybody, right, Like,

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Speaker 1: he's very clear on the on the fact that quitting

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Speaker 1: social media is a privilege and not everybody is able

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Speaker 1: to do it. A lot of people, uh you know,

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Speaker 1: own a business or or or part of their job

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Speaker 1: entails them using social media. I know some people like that,

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Speaker 1: and they're just they're trapped in they're trapped in it,

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Speaker 1: like you just can't walk away from it, or you

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Speaker 1: might be shackled to it. More socially, like, well, if

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Speaker 1: I stop using uh, you know, Facebook, how am I

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Speaker 1: gonna connect connect with my friends who all live in

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Speaker 1: another city. And I just moved to a place where

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Speaker 1: I don't know anybody, Um, you know, they're all these

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Speaker 1: arguments to be made, and so he's not. He's not,

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Speaker 1: you know, drawing this firm line in the sand and saying,

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Speaker 1: you know, the winners over here, users over there, or

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Speaker 1: anything of the of the sword. And he's certainly not

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Speaker 1: arguing that, you know, we should we should all go

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Speaker 1: and make a big dramatic to do about quitting social

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Speaker 1: media either because I think I think we all see

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Speaker 1: that occasionally on our feet to oh, that's the most

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Speaker 1: embarrassing thing when you see somebody post a lot about

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Speaker 1: how they're quitting, and then they quit for a week

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Speaker 1: and then they're back. Yeah. Yeah. And in fact, I

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Speaker 1: actually I shared I shared something about this book on

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Speaker 1: my private social media feed, and immediately like somebody was

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Speaker 1: like calling me out for having posted about quitting social

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Speaker 1: media on social media. But of course I think what's

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Speaker 1: wrong with that? I mean, where are we going to

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Speaker 1: talk about leaving social media but social media to a

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Speaker 1: certain extent um. And and also well, I mean this

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Speaker 1: episode where we're discussing his arguments again, you know, we're

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Speaker 1: not necessarily saying everybody's got to get off social media.

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Speaker 1: But I do think these are some interesting arguments, very

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Speaker 1: worth considering. Um, we're discussing these on an episode that

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Speaker 1: will be promoted on social media because that is part

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Speaker 1: of the distribution business model of this podcast exactly. It's like,

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Speaker 1: this is how, you know, one way that we reach listeners,

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Speaker 1: and if we don't do this, it won't reach as

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Speaker 1: many listeners. So I don't know, how do you how

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Speaker 1: do you balance That's like, are you actually doing better

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Speaker 1: if you say, well, let's not post the episode on

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Speaker 1: social media so fewer people will hear it. Yeah, thus

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Speaker 1: is the world? Thus have we made it? But at

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Speaker 1: any rate, Linear also ultimately says like, hey, I'm not

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Speaker 1: even saying quit social media forever. Um, you know, because

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Speaker 1: ultimately he's hope, he's hopeful that social media can be corrected,

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Speaker 1: that we can come back to a version of social

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Speaker 1: media media that is not harmful to us in so

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Speaker 1: many ways. And then also he's saying, like, you know,

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Speaker 1: quit for a while and come back. That's the only

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Speaker 1: way you'll you'll have any kind of like insight on

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Speaker 1: what it's doing to you, Like this will help give

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Speaker 1: you the uh, you know, the vantage point by which

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Speaker 1: to to understand the interaction between your life and these

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Speaker 1: bummer systems. All right, well, maybe we should take a

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Speaker 1: quick break and then when we come back we can

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Speaker 1: discuss a couple of the arguments from the book and

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Speaker 1: our thoughts about them. Than all right, we're back. So again,

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Speaker 1: the book that we're discussing is uh Journalinears ten arguments

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Speaker 1: for deleting your Social media accounts. Right now, you're probably

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Speaker 1: wondering what are those ten arguments. We're not going to

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Speaker 1: regurgitate all ten arguments here. If you want to know

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Speaker 1: what they are, you should pick up a copy of

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Speaker 1: it because without even opening the book, all ten are

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Speaker 1: listed on the back right, which is which is prob

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Speaker 1: was handy. You know, you can just you can instantly

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Speaker 1: see what you're in for. We're gonna be talking about

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Speaker 1: i think basically four of the arguments, and uh In

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Speaker 1: discussing them a bit here for you, yeah, someone more

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Speaker 1: depth than others. Now, one thing that we should talk

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Speaker 1: about upfront, because it's sort of a foundational argument that

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Speaker 1: feeds into all the others, is this point that, in

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Speaker 1: Lanear's words, due to social media, you are partially losing

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Speaker 1: your free will. Uh So, one of his core arguments

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Speaker 1: on which many of the others rest is that social

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Speaker 1: media is at heart a mass program of behavior modification

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Speaker 1: for rent. That is how these companies make money. So

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Speaker 1: if your Facebook, the way that you make money is

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Speaker 1: that people pay you to have some kind of influence

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Speaker 1: on users of Facebook, and that influence could be a

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Speaker 1: very traditional, normal style of advertising, the kind of thing

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Speaker 1: that you know that happens everywhere, and most people aren't

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Speaker 1: bothered by, right, because it's clear what's happening. You're just

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Speaker 1: seeing an ad for a product that somebody thinks you

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Speaker 1: might want, and you know, there's the ad and you

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Speaker 1: might go by it. That's you know, we're not generally

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Speaker 1: very bothered by that. Right. Always reminds me of the

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Speaker 1: moment in Futurama where a fry encounters in the future

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Speaker 1: and advertisement in his dream. That's a little creepier. We

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Speaker 1: find it intrusive. And he says, you know, we didn't

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Speaker 1: have that in my time. We just had advertisements, you know,

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Speaker 1: all over the place and in the sky and on

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Speaker 1: the billboard. I mean, certainly we do even without social media.

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Speaker 1: We live in an age of you just ubiquitous advertising. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and you know that is this is one thing that

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Speaker 1: he does sort of attack is the problem that the

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Speaker 1: web arose on an advertising pay for model. Uh. You know,

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Speaker 1: back in the early days of the web, there was

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Speaker 1: this idea that everything needed to be free to access.

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Speaker 1: You couldn't charge people to get stuff on the web.

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Speaker 1: But then how do you pay for producing that stuff.

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Speaker 1: Somebody's got to make it, you know that they've got

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Speaker 1: to get paid somehow. So what happens, Well, you'd pay

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Speaker 1: for it by showing advertising along with the thing, and

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Speaker 1: the advertisers would pay for what you're seeing. Right And

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Speaker 1: of course, again coming back to podcasting, we're not blind

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Speaker 1: to the fact that that's essentially what you have with

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Speaker 1: this podcast. This podcast is provided to you for free,

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Speaker 1: but you have to put up with advertisements. Right now,

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Speaker 1: I don't really mind that from an advertiser, from a

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Speaker 1: from a podcast point of view, because when I listen

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Speaker 1: to podcasts and when I make a podcast, I generally

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Speaker 1: think the advertising that's happening there is fairly straightforward. It's

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Speaker 1: pretty clear what's going on. Somebody's pitching you a product.

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Speaker 1: I mean, likewise, on television, of course, television start off

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Speaker 1: with the same model and he discusses this. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's like, here's the signal. Here's some programming, but here

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Speaker 1: are also some advertisements. But generally speaking, without getting into

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Speaker 1: some of the you know, the trickier forms of television

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Speaker 1: advertising and product integration and so forth, you're you're still

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Speaker 1: dealing with the situation where it's like I'm watching a show. Okay,

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Speaker 1: now I'm watching an ad. Now I'm watching the show again. Right.

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Speaker 1: But even when even with other things, you know, like uh,

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Speaker 1: sponsored content and stuff like that, I mean, I think

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Speaker 1: there's there's a big difference between what's clear and what's sneaky.

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Speaker 1: I think generally people tend to be okay with advertising

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Speaker 1: when it's clear what's going on. When you know, they're

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Speaker 1: told who's paying for what they're seeing, and it's clear

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Speaker 1: what the person who's paying for what they're seeing wants

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Speaker 1: them to do. Usually it's like buy my product or

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Speaker 1: become a member of my service or something like that.

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Speaker 1: That that that's the kind of thing that I usually

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Speaker 1: feel fine about that. Most people tend to feel fine

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Speaker 1: abou out what's going on with social media, According to

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Speaker 1: Tullneier's argument is that there is a much sneakier, more subtle,

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Speaker 1: and perhaps more sinister thing happening which is that our

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Speaker 1: behavior is being modified in ways that are not clear,

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Speaker 1: that are not that are not obvious to us, ways

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Speaker 1: that we're not aware of, and we oftentimes, in fact,

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Speaker 1: most of the time, don't know who's doing it right.

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Speaker 1: And I think we all have those moments using a

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Speaker 1: product like Facebook where something an advertisement will pop up

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Speaker 1: or predict or perhaps a post even made by a

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Speaker 1: friend will pop up, and you'll stop for a second

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Speaker 1: and wonder, why was that served to me? Why am

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Speaker 1: I seeing this? Yeah? What is what have I done?

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Speaker 1: What sort of interactions on my part or you know,

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Speaker 1: demographic information on my part has led to this being

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Speaker 1: put in my face? But there's a good chance that

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Speaker 1: it is. It's either serving the like the supply model

427
00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:01,119
Speaker 1: of Facebook, which is trying to keep you engaged on

428
00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:03,680
Speaker 1: the platform for as long as possible, so that that's

429
00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:05,359
Speaker 1: one thing that they just want to keep you on

430
00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:08,520
Speaker 1: there so they can modify your behavior more, gather more

431
00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:11,640
Speaker 1: data about you, show you more ads. Uh, So that's

432
00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:14,000
Speaker 1: one thing they might be just showing you it to

433
00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:17,520
Speaker 1: you because their vast collection of data shows that when

434
00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:20,240
Speaker 1: you see stuff like this, you use Facebook for a

435
00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:23,359
Speaker 1: longer period of time, or you log back on more

436
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:26,400
Speaker 1: often later in the day. So that might be one thing,

437
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:28,360
Speaker 1: but the other thing might be that you're seeing that

438
00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:33,320
Speaker 1: thing because somebody has targeted you for some kind of effect.

439
00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:35,919
Speaker 1: They want to generate some kind of effect. And this

440
00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:39,080
Speaker 1: could be like become my customer kind of effect, or

441
00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:41,040
Speaker 1: it could be something else. It could be in effect

442
00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:43,800
Speaker 1: like we want to make people stay home instead of

443
00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:46,040
Speaker 1: go out and vote today. Now at this point, I

444
00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:47,960
Speaker 1: do want to drive home as well. That one thing

445
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:50,600
Speaker 1: that Lanier is very clear on is that he is

446
00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:53,960
Speaker 1: making no argument that there is like a broom at

447
00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:59,199
Speaker 1: Facebook or Twitter or wherever where like evil operations go on,

448
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:02,119
Speaker 1: that there's like a sinister cabal uh in any of

449
00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:04,400
Speaker 1: these organizations that are sitting down and saying what can

450
00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:07,679
Speaker 1: we do to destroy the human soul or anything like that. Right,

451
00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:11,280
Speaker 1: there's not a m wahahaha committee, right there is. Instead,

452
00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:14,640
Speaker 1: there is well, well, I mean, there are decisions being

453
00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:19,239
Speaker 1: made by people about what types of incentives will be

454
00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:23,960
Speaker 1: algorithmically optimized and so so that is something where it's

455
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:26,240
Speaker 1: not like the humans who operate in these companies don't

456
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:30,800
Speaker 1: bear responsibility. They do, but they're not they're they're generally

457
00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:33,760
Speaker 1: not trying to ruin the human race. They're they're not

458
00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:36,280
Speaker 1: trying to say, what's the worst thing we can do

459
00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:38,520
Speaker 1: to our users, right, that would that would just be

460
00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:41,160
Speaker 1: a simplification of something that is a lot more complicated,

461
00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:43,800
Speaker 1: and it's taking place not on the scale of even

462
00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:46,320
Speaker 1: of an individual or individuals, but taking place in the

463
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:49,919
Speaker 1: scale of a corporation. What Linear argues is that bad

464
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:55,080
Speaker 1: business incentives which prioritize behavior modification are leading to the

465
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:59,600
Speaker 1: creation of algorithms that sort of automatically commit these these

466
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:03,879
Speaker 1: behavior your modification schemes, and so behavior modification can be

467
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:07,240
Speaker 1: linked to traditions and the behaviorist school of psychology, which

468
00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:10,520
Speaker 1: flourished in the twentieth century. We've talked on other episodes

469
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:13,040
Speaker 1: of the show about like b F. Skinner and behaviorism.

470
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:17,480
Speaker 1: Behaviorism sometimes gets demonized, and they're definitely really good reasons

471
00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:21,560
Speaker 1: to be historically critical of the behaviorist trend in the

472
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:25,680
Speaker 1: history of psychology, but it also wasn't entirely wrong. Like behaviorism,

473
00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:28,800
Speaker 1: I think could be credited with trying to make psychology

474
00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:31,919
Speaker 1: a more objective science. But it also you know, a

475
00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:34,240
Speaker 1: common criticism is that it sort of treats the human

476
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:36,960
Speaker 1: brain like a black box. You know, conditioning goes in,

477
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:41,440
Speaker 1: behavior comes out, and whatever happens inside just isn't really important.

478
00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:44,320
Speaker 1: But one thing that it did show is that if

479
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:47,080
Speaker 1: you treat the human brain like this kind of like

480
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:50,280
Speaker 1: mystery machine where you just kind of like put conditioning

481
00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:53,600
Speaker 1: in and keep calibrating until you get the output behavior

482
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:57,400
Speaker 1: you want, you can actually change behavior in an extremely

483
00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:01,000
Speaker 1: effective way like that, like you know, be behavioral conditioning

484
00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:05,320
Speaker 1: can be very powerful. And Laniers Linears argument is that

485
00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:08,560
Speaker 1: modern social media is sort of almost a perfect vehicle

486
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:14,400
Speaker 1: for refining behavioral conditioning because it can collect extremely minute

487
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:18,040
Speaker 1: data about you, and lots of it because of course

488
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:21,040
Speaker 1: it has you know, this connection like it it records

489
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:23,080
Speaker 1: everything you do and all the stuff you do on

490
00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:25,439
Speaker 1: social media. There's actually a lot of things you do

491
00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:27,560
Speaker 1: on social media that they can learn a lot about,

492
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:31,240
Speaker 1: from your brain states to where you are through location tagging,

493
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:34,520
Speaker 1: to what you spend money on you know, your linked accounts,

494
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:38,040
Speaker 1: to the words you use reflecting your moods. Like they can,

495
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:41,399
Speaker 1: they know a lot about you and about how what

496
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:44,399
Speaker 1: they show you affects what you do. Right, you know,

497
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:46,879
Speaker 1: I would be loath perhaps to say that they know

498
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:49,840
Speaker 1: us better than we know ourselves. But there, but I

499
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:52,679
Speaker 1: feel like they often, these platforms often know us better

500
00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:56,720
Speaker 1: than we are perhaps prepared to admit to ourselves. Yeah, well,

501
00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:59,080
Speaker 1: they know things about you that are different from the

502
00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:02,480
Speaker 1: way you think about yourselves. They know about you from

503
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 1: a behavioral conditioning standpoint, where they can track in a

504
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:09,399
Speaker 1: really minute way what conditioning goes in and what behavior

505
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:11,920
Speaker 1: comes out. We tend not to think of ourselves that way.

506
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:14,000
Speaker 1: We tend to think of ourselves from the inside out.

507
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:16,720
Speaker 1: We think about our own mind states. You know, we

508
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:19,960
Speaker 1: tell a narrative about our behaviors in which everything is

509
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:23,600
Speaker 1: rationalized to make sense. So it's often we feel kind

510
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:27,720
Speaker 1: of demeaned when it's suggested that we are vulnerable to

511
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:30,439
Speaker 1: behavioral conditioning. It's like, no, no, no, I'm not. You know.

512
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:33,200
Speaker 1: It's like how people think advertising doesn't work on them,

513
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:35,760
Speaker 1: you know, like, no, I'm not more likely to buy

514
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:38,320
Speaker 1: a product because I saw a commercial for it, but

515
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:41,800
Speaker 1: you know you probably are. I mean, we just tend

516
00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:45,960
Speaker 1: to think we're more mentally independent of the effects of

517
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 1: stimuli that we actually are, or we will will criticize

518
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:52,000
Speaker 1: and say it doesn't affect us on one platform and

519
00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:55,760
Speaker 1: then on another will celebrate it without naming any names.

520
00:27:56,359 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 1: One might use a particularly popular music streaming service and

521
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:04,080
Speaker 1: you might go, wow, I really love the algorithm on

522
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:06,040
Speaker 1: this thing. It really knows what I'm into it. Yes, me,

523
00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:09,240
Speaker 1: it keeps giving me musical suggestions that are they're totally

524
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:12,720
Speaker 1: on point. Yeah, and you need you have to stop

525
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:14,840
Speaker 1: sometimes like, well, I guess that's a good thing, but

526
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:18,959
Speaker 1: is it really Yeah. So social media platforms they can

527
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:21,399
Speaker 1: gather all this data about you, but also they have

528
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:24,800
Speaker 1: extreme psychological power over you. I mean, especially the big

529
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:27,639
Speaker 1: one to think about his Facebook just like it's this

530
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:32,439
Speaker 1: almost perfect machine for maximizing potential and behavior modification. It

531
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:35,000
Speaker 1: can make you feel and think what it wants with

532
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 1: astonishing effectiveness just by showing you certain things that it

533
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:42,560
Speaker 1: has figured out that when it shows these things two

534
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:45,720
Speaker 1: people like you, you tend to react by behaving a

535
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:48,600
Speaker 1: certain way. And then of course it can just keep

536
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:53,400
Speaker 1: calibrating those those efforts more finally, and finally, finally with

537
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 1: extremely high quality feedback based on the way it tracks

538
00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:58,960
Speaker 1: your behavior and all the ways we mentioned earlier. So

539
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 1: this this is basic argument, and you can see that

540
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:07,960
Speaker 1: companies like Facebook are interested in in always getting tighter

541
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:11,200
Speaker 1: and tighter control of the data and feedback about you

542
00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:12,760
Speaker 1: in these sorts of ways. I was just reading a

543
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:14,960
Speaker 1: story the other day, uh, in the m I T.

544
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:19,080
Speaker 1: Tech Review about Facebook being involved in funding research on

545
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:23,200
Speaker 1: a wearable headband that could supposedly read your thoughts. Now.

546
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 1: I don't think we should get overly alarmed about like

547
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:28,440
Speaker 1: this one particular news story, because this kind of technology

548
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:30,360
Speaker 1: is probably very crude at this point. You know, it

549
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 1: doesn't tell you a lot today. We're not going to

550
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 1: go from like zero to black mirror in a year

551
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:39,120
Speaker 1: on this particular front, right, But I do think the

552
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,600
Speaker 1: fact that Facebook is funding this kind of research should

553
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:45,600
Speaker 1: tell us something. They want to get deeper, They want

554
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:48,840
Speaker 1: to go further. They want to get closer and closer

555
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:52,600
Speaker 1: to your brain to know exactly how you're reacting to

556
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:56,440
Speaker 1: things in real time all the time. They want they

557
00:29:56,520 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 1: want sort of like infinitely precise and finally calibrated data

558
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:03,680
Speaker 1: about you. And why would they want that. It's because

559
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 1: it gives them better control over what you do, and

560
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:11,320
Speaker 1: that control can be rented out to sponsors and again,

561
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:13,680
Speaker 1: and those sponsors could be fairly straightforward. They could be

562
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:16,479
Speaker 1: somebody trying to get you to buy their brand of shoes,

563
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 1: or it could be a government trying to control what

564
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:23,480
Speaker 1: you do on a certain day, or or control how

565
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:27,400
Speaker 1: you feel about a political movement. Absolutely, and and that

566
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:31,840
Speaker 1: certainly they did. The involvement of of of other states

567
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 1: or operatives acting on the part of on the behalf

568
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:37,840
Speaker 1: of other states has has certainly been in the news

569
00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:40,800
Speaker 1: a great deal recently. Well, yeah, it's very strange that

570
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:44,440
Speaker 1: like that. I don't know if people would have predicted

571
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:47,160
Speaker 1: ten years ago. Maybe they did, and I wasn't aware

572
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:50,720
Speaker 1: of it that social media would start to become a

573
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:56,480
Speaker 1: major um statecraft and national security concern. Yeah. I mean,

574
00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:58,840
Speaker 1: well I think we were all probably you know, in

575
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 1: the in the same boat. You know, for the most

576
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:03,760
Speaker 1: part when social media started up, it just seemed like

577
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:06,080
Speaker 1: a thing that was a fun way to connect with

578
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:08,240
Speaker 1: a few other people that you knew and maybe meet

579
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:11,240
Speaker 1: some new people. It's cool. Yeah, And it was you know,

580
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:13,760
Speaker 1: for the most part, you know, it was just you

581
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:16,400
Speaker 1: and friends and potential new friends on there. And your

582
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:19,520
Speaker 1: parents weren't on it yet. Major politicians were not on

583
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 1: it yet. Um, major governments were seemingly not involved yet. Well,

584
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:27,400
Speaker 1: I mean, it's the I don't want to be overly.

585
00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:30,120
Speaker 1: I don't want to demonize it too much, but I

586
00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:32,239
Speaker 1: mean it's kind of the addiction model, right. It's like,

587
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:34,600
Speaker 1: you know, your first your first dose of this drug

588
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:37,719
Speaker 1: is free, maybe your first free, uh, several doses you

589
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 1: get hooked. And then what Linear talks about a big

590
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:43,440
Speaker 1: issue going on with these companies is that there is

591
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:47,560
Speaker 1: this problem of network effects, right. Network effects are the

592
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:51,920
Speaker 1: thing that happens in digital media businesses where people tend

593
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:55,160
Speaker 1: to get locked into a service. And once people are

594
00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:57,680
Speaker 1: locked into a service, it's very hard for there to

595
00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:00,960
Speaker 1: be an effective competitor and get people to move over there.

596
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:03,920
Speaker 1: People are already on Facebook. If you tried to start

597
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:06,560
Speaker 1: a better Facebook today, and people have tried to start

598
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:10,840
Speaker 1: like nonprofit facebooks, nobody goes over there, right new. I've

599
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:13,600
Speaker 1: joined those before and it lasts like an afternoon. Yeah,

600
00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 1: you're you're already. People are on Facebook because that's where

601
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 1: their friends are and that's where all that's where everything

602
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:23,000
Speaker 1: is happening. It's network effects that keep people locked in

603
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:25,959
Speaker 1: once they're already there, and once everybody's there, you can

604
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 1: kind of like lock the doors and then start doing

605
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:30,960
Speaker 1: whatever you want inside, and you can check out any

606
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:34,800
Speaker 1: time you like, right, but you can never leave you alright,

607
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:37,480
Speaker 1: So we're skipping and skipping around a bit. But another argument,

608
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:42,360
Speaker 1: basically the fifth argument that Linear makes, is that social

609
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:46,640
Speaker 1: media is making what you say meaningless, and the core

610
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 1: argument here comes down to context. Now, entering into this argument,

611
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:55,160
Speaker 1: I personally thought about the rather simple example that I'm

612
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:57,480
Speaker 1: sure many of you are thinking of right now, and

613
00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 1: an ambiguous text message or email has taken out of

614
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:04,480
Speaker 1: context because there are limitations to what we can typically

615
00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:09,680
Speaker 1: convey in these you know, limited generally short form communication formats. Uh.

616
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:12,240
Speaker 1: You know, an emoji can only do so much to

617
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:15,480
Speaker 1: provide context to what you're saying. You ever, notice how

618
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 1: if you listen to a friend of yours talk about something,

619
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:22,120
Speaker 1: it sounds normal and fine, But if you listen to

620
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:25,520
Speaker 1: a snippet of a stranger's conversation, they sound like a

621
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:30,120
Speaker 1: complete moron and it's like embarrassing or or at best,

622
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:33,280
Speaker 1: like a cryptic alien where you're just like, what what what?

623
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:35,360
Speaker 1: What was that? I'll never know? But you know what

624
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 1: I mean? And it's not like strangers happen to be like,

625
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:42,040
Speaker 1: there's something wrong with people you don't know as opposed

626
00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:44,720
Speaker 1: to people you do know is that when you know somebody,

627
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:48,560
Speaker 1: you have context based in their personality and your relationship

628
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:52,920
Speaker 1: with them. What they're saying makes sense to you because

629
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:55,160
Speaker 1: you know them and you know how they generally think

630
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 1: about things and all that. If you were if you

631
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:00,160
Speaker 1: didn't know this person, you just happen to over or

632
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 1: hear them, is you know, you walk by on the

633
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:04,000
Speaker 1: sidewalk and they were saying the same thing that would

634
00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 1: normally say that would sound normal to you as part

635
00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:09,319
Speaker 1: of a conversation. You might think like, wow, what that

636
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:12,520
Speaker 1: What a freak? I know, people probably think the same

637
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:14,600
Speaker 1: thing about me all the time. Oh, I'm sure people

638
00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:16,640
Speaker 1: think that about I mean I think about this all

639
00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:19,320
Speaker 1: the time, Like I'll be out somewhere having a conversation

640
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:21,719
Speaker 1: about Highlander to the Quickening, and I'm like, what do

641
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:25,520
Speaker 1: I sound like? What kind of what kind of idiot

642
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:28,040
Speaker 1: do I sound like? To somebody who doesn't know me?

643
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:30,000
Speaker 1: I mean, I probably maybe I sound that bad to

644
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:34,400
Speaker 1: people who do know me, but no, alright, So but anyway,

645
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:37,560
Speaker 1: coming back to linear here, he's getting some of this

646
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:40,640
Speaker 1: applies to his case, but basically he's saying that you know,

647
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:43,440
Speaker 1: with context or the lack of context. You know, it

648
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:47,120
Speaker 1: comes down to the lack of individual control over context

649
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:51,160
Speaker 1: on social media, and he points to two extreme examples

650
00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:54,880
Speaker 1: of this online to sort of hu, you know, better

651
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:58,800
Speaker 1: illustrate what's happening elsewhere. So, like the two extreme cases

652
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 1: would be when, um, when you have legit ads popping

653
00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:05,680
Speaker 1: up on say, terrorist recruitment videos on YouTube, which was

654
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:09,200
Speaker 1: which was a problem at least early on, is that

655
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:13,360
Speaker 1: you would have a legitimate advertiser and ultimately an illegitimate

656
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 1: content or an illegitimate user, and those will be matched

657
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:19,279
Speaker 1: together in the context it would would be you know,

658
00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:24,040
Speaker 1: accidental and terrible. Platforms are juxtaposing content without understanding what

659
00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:27,400
Speaker 1: that content is, and it very often doesn't reflect well

660
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:30,600
Speaker 1: on any of the content, or certainly on some of it. Right.

661
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:33,080
Speaker 1: And then the other example he brought up, we're when

662
00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:37,439
Speaker 1: you have images of say women and girls whose whose

663
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:41,000
Speaker 1: images are are sexualized or incorporated into violent media without

664
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:45,120
Speaker 1: their consent. Again, that's like a that's that's horrible, and

665
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:49,640
Speaker 1: it is an extreme example. But he argues that these

666
00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:54,440
Speaker 1: extreme cases are possible because social media in general robs

667
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:58,680
Speaker 1: us of control over context. When we express ourselves online.

668
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:02,440
Speaker 1: We have no idea how that expression will be presented

669
00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:07,760
Speaker 1: specifically to anybody else. How often is there some public

670
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:13,600
Speaker 1: controversy about like a tweet where you know, somebody is

671
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:16,880
Speaker 1: like somebody's like, hey, I found a tweet by ex celebrity,

672
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:19,959
Speaker 1: you know, where they said something that looks really bad,

673
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:22,560
Speaker 1: and then that person defends themselves by saying, but you

674
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:26,160
Speaker 1: took it out of context. What you really feel about this,

675
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:28,640
Speaker 1: of course, is going to very highly case by case

676
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:31,279
Speaker 1: because maybe the context changes the meaning of it, and

677
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:33,640
Speaker 1: maybe it doesn't, right, But when it's just presented as

678
00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:36,960
Speaker 1: a snippet, that individual doesn't have control of the context.

679
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:39,520
Speaker 1: Maybe you have control of the context, but but they don't.

680
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:42,880
Speaker 1: It's similar when and we certainly see this, uh in

681
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:45,040
Speaker 1: our political cycles as well. You know, something that a

682
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:50,040
Speaker 1: candidate said or wrote ten years ago is you know,

683
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:52,919
Speaker 1: twenty years ago, what have you? Uh? Is taken out

684
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:57,840
Speaker 1: as a snippet and presented often without completely either without

685
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:00,279
Speaker 1: context or without like complete context or to what they

686
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:03,880
Speaker 1: were talking about. Uh. And you know, and in some cases,

687
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:08,160
Speaker 1: I mean, anytime you're quoting somebody, you are you are

688
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:12,000
Speaker 1: literally taking them out of context. But like, uh, there

689
00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:15,879
Speaker 1: are ways that being taken out of context can be pernicious,

690
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:17,840
Speaker 1: and then they're I mean, they're totally normal ways to

691
00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:21,239
Speaker 1: do it too. But then again, is when when something

692
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:23,680
Speaker 1: is taken out of context, is there's kind of implied

693
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:27,440
Speaker 1: by that statement that context is usually in place. And

694
00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:30,360
Speaker 1: it's like saying, who who left this toy on the

695
00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:33,840
Speaker 1: kitchen floor, Let's put it back where it goes. You

696
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 1: don't want to live in a reality where the toys

697
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:38,960
Speaker 1: are always on the kitchen floor, in which context is

698
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:42,319
Speaker 1: always out of place. And and so that's ultimately what

699
00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:44,080
Speaker 1: he's getting out of social media. I'm gonna going to

700
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:47,239
Speaker 1: read just a quote from his writings here, quote, we

701
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:51,320
Speaker 1: have given up our connection to context. Social media mashes

702
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:54,840
Speaker 1: up meaning whatever you say will be contextualized and given

703
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:58,560
Speaker 1: meaning by the way algorithms and crowds of fake people

704
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:02,080
Speaker 1: who are actually out rhythms match it up with what

705
00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:06,080
Speaker 1: other people say. And he continues, speaking through social media

706
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:09,560
Speaker 1: isn't really speaking at all. Context is applied to what

707
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:13,520
Speaker 1: you say after you say it for someone else's purposes

708
00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:18,360
Speaker 1: and profit. So essentially we have surrendered context to the

709
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:24,080
Speaker 1: bummer platform. He's saying, rendering communication quote petty, shallow and predictable,

710
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:29,359
Speaker 1: and as such, only the extreme voices, the worst of us,

711
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 1: the loudest, the you know, the most acidic voices in

712
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:35,560
Speaker 1: our culture are going to be the ones that rise up.

713
00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:37,439
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean this is a whole other point

714
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:39,480
Speaker 1: he makes that I guess we're not going into in depth,

715
00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:44,759
Speaker 1: but I mean he argues that these platforms necessarily promote

716
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:49,960
Speaker 1: the worst voices because the worst voices tend to drive engagement, right,

717
00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:53,080
Speaker 1: and the platforms want to drive engagement. What gets people

718
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:56,560
Speaker 1: using the platforms more keeps people glued to Twitter, glued

719
00:38:56,600 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 1: to Facebook. It's like whatever, gin's up the most net

720
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:03,239
Speaker 1: gative emotion, right, and one click word on engagement. One

721
00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:05,520
Speaker 1: thing that he hammers home a number of times in

722
00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:07,480
Speaker 1: the book is that when you hear the word engagement

723
00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:10,439
Speaker 1: used in a social media context, what we're talking about

724
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:14,279
Speaker 1: is manipulation. So try to think about that next time.

725
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:17,480
Speaker 1: If you're attending a meeting or reading an article, uh

726
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:20,200
Speaker 1: sort of like especially a pro social media argument, uh

727
00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:24,640
Speaker 1: you know about social about engagement, Just uh switch it

728
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:27,440
Speaker 1: out for the word manipulation and see how the taste

729
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:31,480
Speaker 1: fits you. But called engagement caught manipulation, whatever you like,

730
00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:34,680
Speaker 1: it ends up creating this environment where everybody has to

731
00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:37,359
Speaker 1: play that game in order to be heard, And of

732
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:40,840
Speaker 1: course that means it changes the way that say, legitimate

733
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:45,600
Speaker 1: journalistic uh um publications have to play the game. You know,

734
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:49,799
Speaker 1: you have to lean into even you know, more ridiculous

735
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:54,000
Speaker 1: headlines for instance, click bad headlines in order to get

736
00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:56,840
Speaker 1: that precious and engagement, and that can have an eroding

737
00:39:56,880 --> 00:40:01,560
Speaker 1: effect on the institutions of journalism and themselves. Oh absolutely,

738
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:04,040
Speaker 1: I mean well that also goes with the just like

739
00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:07,600
Speaker 1: it is the most uh, the most toxic or most

740
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:11,960
Speaker 1: uh whatever voices gin up the most negative emotion tend

741
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:14,680
Speaker 1: to be promoted on these platforms because they drive engagement.

742
00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:17,799
Speaker 1: The same could be true of topics. So like you

743
00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:21,040
Speaker 1: might not say that, well, my voice is toxic, but

744
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:25,800
Speaker 1: like whatever topics get people the most like upset and

745
00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:29,920
Speaker 1: worried and aggravated and angry and all that, those topics

746
00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:32,600
Speaker 1: are going to be favored by algorithms that are trying

747
00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:35,839
Speaker 1: to increase engagement. So they know, you know, I think

748
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:39,160
Speaker 1: a lot of times, um publishers of online media know

749
00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:42,440
Speaker 1: that there are certain topics that get people really upset,

750
00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:45,880
Speaker 1: and those will be the highest performing articles on our

751
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:50,040
Speaker 1: videos on social media those days, like think of chemicals

752
00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:53,080
Speaker 1: as engagement, Like which chemicals are most engaging when you

753
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:56,160
Speaker 1: get them on your skin? You know, I instantly think

754
00:40:56,160 --> 00:40:58,359
Speaker 1: of the ones that are going to sting right, uh

755
00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:00,880
Speaker 1: And suddenly I can't think of anything but those stingy

756
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:05,200
Speaker 1: places on my skin. Um. So you know again, one

757
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:06,520
Speaker 1: of the things that he comes back around to too

758
00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:09,160
Speaker 1: is that you know what in this context situation is

759
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:12,440
Speaker 1: that what you were saying is only valuable or relevant

760
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:16,399
Speaker 1: insofar as it serves the platform. And again, you were

761
00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:19,880
Speaker 1: not the customer on this platform. You are the product.

762
00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:24,800
Speaker 1: The customers are those uh, those corporations or even state

763
00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:28,040
Speaker 1: to players that have the money to pay into the

764
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:31,600
Speaker 1: bummer system. Yeah. Now I was glad to see that

765
00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:34,600
Speaker 1: he thinks podcasts have not been ruined yet. Yes, yes,

766
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:36,839
Speaker 1: so there there's a whole section in this uh this

767
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:40,440
Speaker 1: argument where he goes under discussed podcasts and uh and

768
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:43,640
Speaker 1: he makes in an argument that podcasts are a rare

769
00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:46,840
Speaker 1: area of our media that are not bummer yet. But

770
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:50,960
Speaker 1: he does dream up and describe an absolute nightmare scenario

771
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:54,400
Speaker 1: for the future of podcasts that I hope never comes

772
00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:56,239
Speaker 1: to pass. And while I was reading it. I was

773
00:41:56,360 --> 00:42:00,480
Speaker 1: literally breaking out in sweats. Yeah, because think about what

774
00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:02,319
Speaker 1: we do on the show, you know, stuff to blow

775
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:06,719
Speaker 1: your mind. Is full of our personalities and our context,

776
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:08,960
Speaker 1: and we have the time and we have the space

777
00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:11,719
Speaker 1: to present topics and ideas, to present our takes and

778
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:15,080
Speaker 1: topics and ideas, and a chance to share our personalities

779
00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:18,680
Speaker 1: with the listener in a continuous episodic manner. And as

780
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:21,919
Speaker 1: a result, you, the listener, you kind of know us.

781
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:25,520
Speaker 1: You you know, when when we get something wrong, you

782
00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:29,080
Speaker 1: have the context to understand what's going on generally, you know,

783
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:31,760
Speaker 1: and what we do on this show is not easily

784
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:35,239
Speaker 1: reduced to sound bites. That's true. And this has been

785
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:38,239
Speaker 1: a problem before, right, Yeah, you should trust us on

786
00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:41,440
Speaker 1: this because every now and then, not currently, but it's

787
00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:43,759
Speaker 1: did with a fair amount of regularity, someone will come

788
00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:45,600
Speaker 1: to us and say, we need some sound bites. Yeah,

789
00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:48,000
Speaker 1: give us fifteen second clips of your show to show

790
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:50,000
Speaker 1: what the show is really about, to show what the show.

791
00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:53,839
Speaker 1: That should be the clip. But no, it's like it's

792
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:56,760
Speaker 1: impossible to do. When you try to pull out fifteen

793
00:42:56,800 --> 00:42:59,440
Speaker 1: seconds of our show, nothing sounds right, I mean, nothing

794
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:02,200
Speaker 1: really make sense on its own. That's that short, Yeah,

795
00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:04,920
Speaker 1: we're not. We're not a Zinger factory here. We're not

796
00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:08,600
Speaker 1: calculating celebrities or want to be celebrities, and we're not

797
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:12,160
Speaker 1: actively trying to play the SoundBite game. We're not trying

798
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:15,920
Speaker 1: to play the bummer game with this show. But to

799
00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:19,080
Speaker 1: clarify all this and really explain what he's talking about, uh,

800
00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:23,279
Speaker 1: Lanear devises a way to quote ruined podcasting. Uh. And

801
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:26,919
Speaker 1: then he adds, nobody do this. Okay, so somebody's gonna

802
00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:29,719
Speaker 1: do it. I mean, I yeah, I can second see

803
00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:34,520
Speaker 1: it happen. Basically, he describes a sort of podcast aggregator

804
00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:38,480
Speaker 1: app that serves up snippets from podcasts with ads, of course,

805
00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:42,200
Speaker 1: and the resulting situation would be that podcasts would then

806
00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:45,680
Speaker 1: be incentivized to produce the sort of content that lends

807
00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:50,600
Speaker 1: itself to this format, so fiery, you know, extreme attention

808
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:54,359
Speaker 1: grabbing sound bites the kind. Okay, So imagine clips of

809
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:58,719
Speaker 1: podcasts that are that are prioritized the same way that

810
00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:03,160
Speaker 1: like tweets or Facebook posts or YouTube videos are prioritized

811
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:08,560
Speaker 1: by the content recommendation algorithms. So just basically like pulling

812
00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:15,120
Speaker 1: out the most egregious and like negative emotion conjuring moments

813
00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:19,000
Speaker 1: of things. Yeah, and the horrible outside of context. Yeah,

814
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:21,759
Speaker 1: and the horrible thing is that I can well imagine

815
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:24,400
Speaker 1: the marketing on social aggregator. You know, it would be

816
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:26,719
Speaker 1: something like, don't have time for all the podcasts in

817
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:29,880
Speaker 1: your life? Well, now you don't have to let telepod

818
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:32,400
Speaker 1: pick out the best parts of the shows and topics

819
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:34,359
Speaker 1: you love and serve it up to you in an

820
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:37,359
Speaker 1: easy to consume dose of wonder that fits into your

821
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:41,360
Speaker 1: busy schedule. And I and it sounds kind of convincing,

822
00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:43,200
Speaker 1: you know, it's like, yeah, I'm busy. I don't have

823
00:44:43,239 --> 00:44:45,399
Speaker 1: time for a whole bunch of hour long podcasts. There's

824
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:48,880
Speaker 1: so many of them. Why not let the algorithm slice

825
00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:52,200
Speaker 1: out just the choice cuts from all my favorite shows

826
00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:55,359
Speaker 1: and give them to me. Friends out there in podcast land.

827
00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:58,879
Speaker 1: If this happens, boycott I. Do not do this. Do

828
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:01,799
Speaker 1: not unless you're already this type of show that is,

829
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:03,880
Speaker 1: you know, leaning, because there are shows out there that

830
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:07,279
Speaker 1: doling themselves well to uh to this sort of thing,

831
00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:09,920
Speaker 1: not necessarily by design, but just by sort of the

832
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:12,960
Speaker 1: suit that the type of topics are already covering, or

833
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:16,879
Speaker 1: the individuals involved, the personalities involved. You know, and then

834
00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:20,080
Speaker 1: it's not saying that you know that their villains because

835
00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:21,520
Speaker 1: of it. But I think there are a lot of

836
00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:23,879
Speaker 1: great shows and you know, hopefully ours is on that

837
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:26,279
Speaker 1: list where yeah, you you you can't cut out these

838
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:31,160
Speaker 1: little segments and expect the host organism to survive or

839
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:33,520
Speaker 1: to be able to communicate what it's trying to communicate.

840
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:38,280
Speaker 1: It's going to be called pod butcher. And if pod

841
00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:40,279
Speaker 1: Butcher came to pass, you know, I can tell you

842
00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:41,960
Speaker 1: that we would not be able to produce the sort

843
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:45,279
Speaker 1: of show we produced now that you presumably like if

844
00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:48,200
Speaker 1: we had to satisfy such an algorithm, and what you

845
00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:51,000
Speaker 1: like would have even less to do with it, because

846
00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:54,440
Speaker 1: you would have handed your likes and choices over to Bummer,

847
00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:57,719
Speaker 1: just as we, uh you know, would have handed over

848
00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:01,200
Speaker 1: context itself. And the interesting thing is Linear is not

849
00:46:01,239 --> 00:46:03,799
Speaker 1: the only person, or the first really to to recognize

850
00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:06,720
Speaker 1: the death of context in social media. I was looking

851
00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:10,880
Speaker 1: back at an article from twelve and Forbes from Susan Tardonico,

852
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:14,560
Speaker 1: and she wrote, quote, every relevant metrics shows that we

853
00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:18,440
Speaker 1: are interacting at breakneck speed with frequency through social media,

854
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:23,760
Speaker 1: but are we really communicating with our communication context stripped away?

855
00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:26,960
Speaker 1: We are now attempting to forge relationships and make decisions

856
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:31,960
Speaker 1: based on phrases, abbreviations, snippets, emoticons, which may or may

857
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:35,480
Speaker 1: not be accurate representations of the truth. And we can

858
00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:37,719
Speaker 1: we can actually go back even even further on this

859
00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:40,480
Speaker 1: notion as well. Um on the show. In the past,

860
00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:44,719
Speaker 1: I've discussed the work of futurists Alvin and Heidi Toffler. Uh.

861
00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:48,480
Speaker 1: They wrote an important nineteen seventy book titled Future Shock,

862
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:52,520
Speaker 1: which was also made into a uninformative but also kind

863
00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:57,560
Speaker 1: of more entertaining than informative orson Wells narrated TV show.

864
00:46:57,920 --> 00:46:59,920
Speaker 1: That's also that's wonderful in its own right. But the book,

865
00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:03,680
Speaker 1: uh was pretty great, and they discussed the apparent and

866
00:47:03,719 --> 00:47:07,879
Speaker 1: possible disruptions of the human experience and human society due

867
00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:11,080
Speaker 1: to rapid advances and technology. And I would like everybody

868
00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:16,200
Speaker 1: to consider this quote from Future Shock nineteen seventy again. Quote.

869
00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:20,160
Speaker 1: Rational behavior in particular depends upon a ceaseless flow of

870
00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:23,040
Speaker 1: data from the environment. It depends upon the power of

871
00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:26,080
Speaker 1: the individual to predict, with at least fair success, the

872
00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:28,879
Speaker 1: outcome of his own actions. To do this, he must

873
00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:31,239
Speaker 1: be able to predict how the environment will respond to

874
00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:35,400
Speaker 1: his acts. Sanity itself thus hinges on man's ability to

875
00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:39,239
Speaker 1: predict his immediate personal future on the basis of information

876
00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:42,560
Speaker 1: fed him by the environment and me personally. I would

877
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:46,440
Speaker 1: extrapolate this to the digital environment that we've grown increasingly

878
00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:50,440
Speaker 1: dependent upon. You know, it's like every day, like multiple

879
00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:53,920
Speaker 1: times a day, over and over again, we're plugging into

880
00:47:53,920 --> 00:47:57,040
Speaker 1: the digital environment and checking out of our physical environment

881
00:47:57,239 --> 00:48:00,319
Speaker 1: as being a main determiner of our behavior of year.

882
00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:04,239
Speaker 1: But it's not an environment that's chiefly mechanically dominated by

883
00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:07,799
Speaker 1: things like you know, everyday Newtonian physics that we can

884
00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:11,840
Speaker 1: predict pretty well. It's more like the main environments that

885
00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:15,080
Speaker 1: we're participating in are like the giant, you know, super

886
00:48:15,120 --> 00:48:18,759
Speaker 1: complex slot machine where you you pull the lever and

887
00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:20,560
Speaker 1: you know, you can pull the lever in a few

888
00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:23,120
Speaker 1: different kinds of ways and you don't know exactly what's

889
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:25,160
Speaker 1: going to come back out at you. So this is

890
00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:28,759
Speaker 1: this is the digital context, the digital environment. I want

891
00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:30,600
Speaker 1: every want to keep that in mind. Is I continue

892
00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:33,080
Speaker 1: reading this quote from the Tofflers here quote, when the

893
00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:36,920
Speaker 1: individual is plunged into a fast and irregularly changing situation

894
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:42,439
Speaker 1: or a novelty loaded context. However, his predictive of accuracy plummets.

895
00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:45,600
Speaker 1: He can no longer make the reasonably correct assessments on

896
00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:49,520
Speaker 1: which rational behavior is dependent. To compensate for this, to

897
00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:51,960
Speaker 1: bring his accuracy up to the normal level again, he

898
00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:55,080
Speaker 1: must scoop up and process far more information than before,

899
00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:57,880
Speaker 1: and he must do this it extremely high rates of speed.

900
00:48:58,239 --> 00:49:01,520
Speaker 1: In short, the more rapidly change and novel the environment,

901
00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:05,040
Speaker 1: the more information the individual needs to process in order

902
00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:08,440
Speaker 1: to make effective rational decisions. And of course there are

903
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:12,879
Speaker 1: limits to our speed. So anyway that the tofflers, I think,

904
00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:16,200
Speaker 1: really strike a chord with our current situation in this passage,

905
00:49:16,239 --> 00:49:19,880
Speaker 1: at least from my standpoint. I mean, sanity itself hinges

906
00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:22,799
Speaker 1: on our ability to predict our immediate personal future on

907
00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:25,920
Speaker 1: the basis of information fed to us by the digital environment.

908
00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:29,360
Speaker 1: And here we are attempting to communicate, act and absorb

909
00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:33,200
Speaker 1: knowledge in a social media environment that makes it impossible

910
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:36,280
Speaker 1: to control the information fed to us, absorb it all properly,

911
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:40,520
Speaker 1: and control the context of our own voices. Yeah, all true,

912
00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:43,440
Speaker 1: I think, I mean it's it's kind of scary. I mean,

913
00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:47,359
Speaker 1: to think about the fact that I'm quite sure that nobody.

914
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:52,040
Speaker 1: There is nobody at Facebook who fully understands all the

915
00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:56,239
Speaker 1: decisions made by the you know, the content recommendation algorithm

916
00:49:56,280 --> 00:49:59,879
Speaker 1: that creates the Facebook feed, right, I mean there. I mean,

917
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:01,640
Speaker 1: maybe they could go maybe they have some way of

918
00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:04,120
Speaker 1: going through if they could look at an individual one

919
00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:07,400
Speaker 1: and say, Okay, here are probably some reasons why you

920
00:50:07,480 --> 00:50:10,480
Speaker 1: were shown this, why you were shown that. But they can't, like,

921
00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:13,360
Speaker 1: they can't predict it all. You know, you can't generate

922
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:16,799
Speaker 1: one of these feeds just uh, you know, with your

923
00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:20,040
Speaker 1: own brain. Yeah, I mean, and we're we're ultimately, we're

924
00:50:20,080 --> 00:50:24,480
Speaker 1: just continuing to understand what and to what extent, you know,

925
00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:29,239
Speaker 1: the harm is. I was looking around, um at some

926
00:50:29,360 --> 00:50:32,640
Speaker 1: various uh you know, posts and sort of industry thoughts

927
00:50:32,719 --> 00:50:36,840
Speaker 1: about about how social media has been linked to struggles

928
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:39,840
Speaker 1: with depression and anxiety. Uh. And there are actually some

929
00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:43,000
Speaker 1: serious discussions going on within the journalism field where journalists

930
00:50:43,040 --> 00:50:45,560
Speaker 1: often feel the need to maintain a social media presence

931
00:50:45,640 --> 00:50:48,200
Speaker 1: or are mandated to and are forced to deal with

932
00:50:48,239 --> 00:50:52,480
Speaker 1: the resulting actually, I mean actual trauma and PTSD. Oh man,

933
00:50:52,520 --> 00:50:55,400
Speaker 1: if you're a journalist, especially working in some kinds of fields,

934
00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:58,560
Speaker 1: you are going to be inundated day in and day

935
00:50:58,560 --> 00:51:01,719
Speaker 1: out with with hateful messaging from people who don't like

936
00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:05,480
Speaker 1: whatever you're you're saying or doing in your career. People

937
00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:08,040
Speaker 1: telling you to go kill yourself, people telling you that

938
00:51:08,080 --> 00:51:11,200
Speaker 1: you're a fraud, and you know, and heaven and Heaven

939
00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:15,560
Speaker 1: forbid your your gender, your gender identity, your your your race,

940
00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:18,560
Speaker 1: um or what have you. Uh, you know, happens to

941
00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:21,200
Speaker 1: to you know, put you in the lines of sights

942
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:25,840
Speaker 1: of you know, particular troll groups on social media totally

943
00:51:25,840 --> 00:51:28,359
Speaker 1: and and I know that there is a kind of

944
00:51:28,400 --> 00:51:31,120
Speaker 1: common reaction, I think, especially from people who don't deal

945
00:51:31,160 --> 00:51:34,399
Speaker 1: with this problem themselves, to say, like, you know, it's

946
00:51:34,440 --> 00:51:36,560
Speaker 1: just people, it's just trolling. Just get over it. You know,

947
00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:41,319
Speaker 1: it's just trolling. Like you're probably just failing to imagine

948
00:51:41,360 --> 00:51:44,919
Speaker 1: what it is like to to actually face this kind

949
00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:47,520
Speaker 1: of like hate and abuse all the time. You know,

950
00:51:47,560 --> 00:51:49,799
Speaker 1: we're we're highly social creature. I mean, even if you

951
00:51:49,840 --> 00:51:53,040
Speaker 1: don't actually fear violence against yourself, which you might have

952
00:51:53,080 --> 00:51:55,920
Speaker 1: good reason to, depending on you know, who you are

953
00:51:56,000 --> 00:51:58,319
Speaker 1: and who these people are and what they say. But

954
00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:00,920
Speaker 1: I mean, if anything, should be clear that the digital

955
00:52:00,960 --> 00:52:04,000
Speaker 1: world in the physical world are are not separated by

956
00:52:04,040 --> 00:52:07,800
Speaker 1: an impassable chasm, you know, I mean we online Israel

957
00:52:07,840 --> 00:52:10,960
Speaker 1: life is reel life, and we see violence stemming from

958
00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:14,560
Speaker 1: digital activities. Yeah. But even if you're not in that category,

959
00:52:14,640 --> 00:52:18,160
Speaker 1: dealing with an onslaught of just hate and abuse all

960
00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:22,319
Speaker 1: the time, is it does life ruining? Yeah? And and

961
00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:24,239
Speaker 1: generally we're not trained to deal with it. So a

962
00:52:24,239 --> 00:52:26,440
Speaker 1: lot of the discussions going on in journalism are are

963
00:52:26,680 --> 00:52:29,480
Speaker 1: you know, should we be training people to to cope

964
00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:32,719
Speaker 1: with the flood of negative commentary and effectively sort out

965
00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:36,239
Speaker 1: what should be ignored, what requires attention, and what constitutes

966
00:52:36,280 --> 00:52:38,719
Speaker 1: an actual threat that should be you know, reported to

967
00:52:39,239 --> 00:52:43,280
Speaker 1: authorities and to reiterate. Of course, it's not just journalists

968
00:52:43,320 --> 00:52:45,920
Speaker 1: that deal with this kind of issue, but like journalism

969
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:47,880
Speaker 1: is one field where a lot of times people have

970
00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:50,000
Speaker 1: to be on these platforms, whether they want to be

971
00:52:50,120 --> 00:52:53,000
Speaker 1: or not, and also by the nature of their work

972
00:52:53,120 --> 00:52:56,920
Speaker 1: just naturally just attract a lot of negative attention. Right

973
00:52:56,960 --> 00:52:59,200
Speaker 1: if if, if someone wants to learn more about this,

974
00:52:59,840 --> 00:53:02,640
Speaker 1: I should point out that Kyle Bessie wrote a great

975
00:53:02,640 --> 00:53:05,839
Speaker 1: post just last month at journalism dot co dot uk

976
00:53:06,280 --> 00:53:10,160
Speaker 1: titled how social media impacts mental health and journalists and

977
00:53:10,239 --> 00:53:12,279
Speaker 1: of course in thinking about all this, you know, comes

978
00:53:12,320 --> 00:53:14,320
Speaker 1: back to the fact that like this is the reality

979
00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:17,600
Speaker 1: we've built for ourselves, you know. I mean it's it's

980
00:53:18,080 --> 00:53:21,400
Speaker 1: through this complex interface of you know, of corporate interests

981
00:53:21,440 --> 00:53:24,399
Speaker 1: and algorithms and and so forth. But still like this

982
00:53:24,480 --> 00:53:27,720
Speaker 1: is the world we've made for ourselves. We've created, we've created,

983
00:53:28,080 --> 00:53:32,120
Speaker 1: you know, through our use of technology, these new pitfalls

984
00:53:32,160 --> 00:53:35,560
Speaker 1: and these new perils to social engagement. All right, we

985
00:53:35,600 --> 00:53:37,719
Speaker 1: need to take another break, but after this we will

986
00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:43,640
Speaker 1: be back with more of our discussion. Alright, we're back.

987
00:53:44,080 --> 00:53:48,839
Speaker 1: So one of Jarren Lanier's arguments from this book ten

988
00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:51,560
Speaker 1: arguments to what is it? How exactly does it go

989
00:53:51,640 --> 00:53:54,040
Speaker 1: for deleting your social media accounts? Right now? Yeah, there

990
00:53:54,080 --> 00:53:58,440
Speaker 1: it is. Um. One of them is that quote social

991
00:53:58,480 --> 00:54:03,440
Speaker 1: media hates your soul? Now, Robert, what are we to

992
00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:06,239
Speaker 1: make of this? So this is this is argument ten.

993
00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:09,880
Speaker 1: So this is the like, the final, all encompassing argument.

994
00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:12,240
Speaker 1: So in a sense, it's almost a little bit unfair

995
00:54:12,239 --> 00:54:14,480
Speaker 1: for me to skip to it because it it hinges

996
00:54:14,600 --> 00:54:17,160
Speaker 1: upon all the arguments that he's made. But it's not

997
00:54:17,200 --> 00:54:19,600
Speaker 1: going to spoil the book, it's not. But to give

998
00:54:19,640 --> 00:54:20,960
Speaker 1: you a test of it. I'm just gonna read the

999
00:54:21,440 --> 00:54:24,560
Speaker 1: second paragraph from the first page of this argument quote

1000
00:54:24,760 --> 00:54:28,440
Speaker 1: to review. Your understanding of others has been disrupted because

1001
00:54:28,520 --> 00:54:31,759
Speaker 1: you don't know what they've experienced in their feeds, while

1002
00:54:31,760 --> 00:54:35,000
Speaker 1: the reverse is also true. The empathy others might offer

1003
00:54:35,080 --> 00:54:38,160
Speaker 1: you is challenged because you can't know the context in

1004
00:54:38,200 --> 00:54:41,560
Speaker 1: which you'll be understood. You're probably becoming more of an

1005
00:54:42,080 --> 00:54:46,319
Speaker 1: but you're also probably sadder. Another pair of Bummer disruptions

1006
00:54:46,400 --> 00:54:49,720
Speaker 1: that are mirror images. Your ability to know the world

1007
00:54:49,760 --> 00:54:53,320
Speaker 1: to know truth has been degraded, while the world's ability

1008
00:54:53,400 --> 00:54:57,640
Speaker 1: to know you has been corrupted. Politics has become unreal

1009
00:54:57,800 --> 00:55:02,880
Speaker 1: and terrifying, while economics has become unreal and unsustainable, two

1010
00:55:02,920 --> 00:55:06,279
Speaker 1: sides of the same coin. That's pretty bleak, and it's

1011
00:55:06,320 --> 00:55:08,719
Speaker 1: hard to imagine just from that paragraph that he is

1012
00:55:08,800 --> 00:55:13,000
Speaker 1: ultimately presenting an optimistic message. Though he is. He is, yeah,

1013
00:55:13,040 --> 00:55:15,680
Speaker 1: but you know he's he's saying though that. Look, Bummer's

1014
00:55:15,719 --> 00:55:19,520
Speaker 1: behavioral modification is taking place not only at an individual scale,

1015
00:55:19,760 --> 00:55:23,200
Speaker 1: but at a societal scale. In this it's reach is

1016
00:55:23,239 --> 00:55:26,480
Speaker 1: more like a religion, and it's and it concerns not

1017
00:55:26,560 --> 00:55:29,000
Speaker 1: only the way you live your life online but what

1018
00:55:29,120 --> 00:55:32,720
Speaker 1: it means to be a person at all, which again

1019
00:55:32,800 --> 00:55:34,799
Speaker 1: may sound a bit extreme and a bet out there,

1020
00:55:34,880 --> 00:55:38,200
Speaker 1: but I think he really makes a strong case for this. Uh.

1021
00:55:38,320 --> 00:55:40,520
Speaker 1: First of all, coming back to free will, which we

1022
00:55:40,760 --> 00:55:44,120
Speaker 1: talked about earlier, free will is central to most religions.

1023
00:55:44,520 --> 00:55:46,759
Speaker 1: You're you're hard pressed to find a spiritual model in

1024
00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:50,600
Speaker 1: which humans are mere automatons. But under Bummer, he argues,

1025
00:55:50,760 --> 00:55:53,840
Speaker 1: free will isn't destroyed, but it is assaulted. It's degraded.

1026
00:55:54,040 --> 00:55:56,400
Speaker 1: You have less of it, and certain parties wind up

1027
00:55:56,400 --> 00:55:59,440
Speaker 1: with more alongside, you know, their wealth and power that

1028
00:55:59,480 --> 00:56:03,640
Speaker 1: they've already accumulated or are accumulating as they take a

1029
00:56:03,640 --> 00:56:06,040
Speaker 1: more and more of your free will, you know. And this, actually,

1030
00:56:06,120 --> 00:56:09,960
Speaker 1: I think does does go along with I don't know.

1031
00:56:10,239 --> 00:56:12,400
Speaker 1: So we've talked before about the coherence of the idea

1032
00:56:12,400 --> 00:56:14,160
Speaker 1: of free will on the show, and I'm sure we're

1033
00:56:14,160 --> 00:56:16,799
Speaker 1: gonna get a lot of kind of like a materialist

1034
00:56:16,880 --> 00:56:18,759
Speaker 1: push back on the idea of free will, saying, hey,

1035
00:56:18,760 --> 00:56:21,520
Speaker 1: wait a minute, free will is an incoherent concept. I

1036
00:56:21,520 --> 00:56:25,120
Speaker 1: think you could make that argument based on some definitions

1037
00:56:25,120 --> 00:56:27,640
Speaker 1: of free will, but in this sense the sense that

1038
00:56:27,719 --> 00:56:30,320
Speaker 1: he uses it, I think free will is an important

1039
00:56:30,320 --> 00:56:33,120
Speaker 1: thing to consider and is a real concept. Basically, it

1040
00:56:33,440 --> 00:56:37,320
Speaker 1: free will means um the feeling that you have control

1041
00:56:37,440 --> 00:56:42,320
Speaker 1: over your own behavior by understanding the influences on yourself

1042
00:56:42,400 --> 00:56:45,399
Speaker 1: and thinking about them consciously. And you know, you can

1043
00:56:45,440 --> 00:56:48,719
Speaker 1: never understand all of the influences on yourself, but there

1044
00:56:48,719 --> 00:56:50,880
Speaker 1: are definitely ways in which you can be in a

1045
00:56:50,960 --> 00:56:54,360
Speaker 1: system where you you feel like you understand most of

1046
00:56:54,400 --> 00:56:56,400
Speaker 1: the inputs that are coming in on you and you

1047
00:56:56,400 --> 00:57:00,320
Speaker 1: can process them consciously and your decision making. For is

1048
00:57:00,360 --> 00:57:04,640
Speaker 1: a system like like a kind of behavioral modification system

1049
00:57:04,880 --> 00:57:07,719
Speaker 1: where you in fact don't know you're being influenced. You

1050
00:57:07,760 --> 00:57:10,920
Speaker 1: don't know who's influencing you, and this is all opaque.

1051
00:57:10,960 --> 00:57:14,360
Speaker 1: You're just suddenly producing behaviors that feel alien and you

1052
00:57:14,400 --> 00:57:18,240
Speaker 1: don't know why you're doing them. Yes. Now, another religion

1053
00:57:18,480 --> 00:57:22,560
Speaker 1: based argumently makes uh in this chapter is that Bummer

1054
00:57:22,840 --> 00:57:25,640
Speaker 1: ultimately wants you to believe it is the Internet and

1055
00:57:25,720 --> 00:57:29,800
Speaker 1: it is the main part of your devices. Uh. But

1056
00:57:29,800 --> 00:57:31,800
Speaker 1: but it but it ultimately is separated. You know. He

1057
00:57:31,800 --> 00:57:33,840
Speaker 1: says you can have the Internet without social media, and

1058
00:57:33,880 --> 00:57:36,200
Speaker 1: he makes a strong argument for that. You know, that's

1059
00:57:36,280 --> 00:57:38,360
Speaker 1: ultimately I think his point is that you know, you

1060
00:57:38,360 --> 00:57:40,440
Speaker 1: you could have a great Internet just by sort of

1061
00:57:40,440 --> 00:57:44,000
Speaker 1: switching everything from the behavior modification pay for a model

1062
00:57:44,280 --> 00:57:47,160
Speaker 1: to like a subscription model where you know, like you

1063
00:57:47,160 --> 00:57:49,880
Speaker 1: could have something like Facebook, but instead of modifying your

1064
00:57:49,920 --> 00:57:53,160
Speaker 1: behavior to pay for it, you just you just pay

1065
00:57:53,200 --> 00:57:56,840
Speaker 1: to get access. Right and uh and uh, Lanier argues that,

1066
00:57:56,880 --> 00:58:00,000
Speaker 1: you know, in the same way the Protestants rejected papal indulgence,

1067
00:58:00,120 --> 00:58:03,680
Speaker 1: is you know, you can you can reject the social

1068
00:58:03,760 --> 00:58:06,760
Speaker 1: media but keep the Internet. You can reject the version

1069
00:58:06,960 --> 00:58:09,960
Speaker 1: of your faith that is uh that is, you know,

1070
00:58:10,040 --> 00:58:13,000
Speaker 1: tiresome or offensive or dangerous, and keep the parts that

1071
00:58:13,080 --> 00:58:15,840
Speaker 1: work for you. I mean, I've said that before regarding

1072
00:58:15,920 --> 00:58:19,040
Speaker 1: just a religion in general. You know, whatever religion you

1073
00:58:19,120 --> 00:58:22,320
Speaker 1: adhere to, uh, I can almost guarantee you there is

1074
00:58:22,360 --> 00:58:26,120
Speaker 1: some version of it, uh that is that is ultimately

1075
00:58:26,160 --> 00:58:29,360
Speaker 1: more accepting and uh, you know, and more liberal in

1076
00:58:29,440 --> 00:58:32,480
Speaker 1: its outlook. Uh you know, whether it's in your immediate

1077
00:58:32,520 --> 00:58:34,640
Speaker 1: area or you have to you know, go out to

1078
00:58:34,680 --> 00:58:38,120
Speaker 1: find it. As another issue, Uh. He also makes the

1079
00:58:38,240 --> 00:58:42,600
Speaker 1: argument that bummer activates pack the pack setting of her mind. Uh,

1080
00:58:42,640 --> 00:58:46,080
Speaker 1: and in doing so, it quote resurrects old conflicts that

1081
00:58:46,120 --> 00:58:49,800
Speaker 1: had been associated with religion in order to engage people

1082
00:58:50,160 --> 00:58:55,360
Speaker 1: as intensely as possible. So basically, social media riles us

1083
00:58:55,440 --> 00:58:58,920
Speaker 1: up and causes the kind of like pack mentality and

1084
00:58:58,960 --> 00:59:01,360
Speaker 1: tribalism that normally you would have to look to a

1085
00:59:01,360 --> 00:59:04,040
Speaker 1: religion to do. Yeah what he This is part of

1086
00:59:04,080 --> 00:59:06,280
Speaker 1: an earlier argument in the book, but basically it's part

1087
00:59:06,320 --> 00:59:09,920
Speaker 1: of an argument he makes about how, uh, social media

1088
00:59:10,000 --> 00:59:14,200
Speaker 1: is making us meaner and and worse by by triggering

1089
00:59:14,760 --> 00:59:18,000
Speaker 1: types of thought patterns that are more associated with obsession

1090
00:59:18,040 --> 00:59:21,520
Speaker 1: with hierarchies and and in group out group thinking and

1091
00:59:21,560 --> 00:59:26,440
Speaker 1: that kind of thing. Yeah, and domination mentality, yeah, dominated culture.

1092
00:59:27,040 --> 00:59:30,040
Speaker 1: And then he he also points out that Bummer ultimately

1093
00:59:30,080 --> 00:59:33,120
Speaker 1: asked you to have faith not in in God or

1094
00:59:33,240 --> 00:59:37,160
Speaker 1: God's or a godess, but in the almighty algorithms that

1095
00:59:37,280 --> 00:59:41,440
Speaker 1: decide what slice of news, political commentary, fake news, parody,

1096
00:59:41,440 --> 00:59:44,600
Speaker 1: conspiracy theory, or just outright hate you see in your feed,

1097
00:59:45,080 --> 00:59:48,440
Speaker 1: and that it's you know, entirely anti ENLiGHT enlightenment in

1098
00:59:48,480 --> 00:59:52,320
Speaker 1: that regard, and that it makes learning subservient to human

1099
00:59:52,400 --> 00:59:57,200
Speaker 1: power hierarchies. Well, yeah, I mean by allowing these algorithms

1100
00:59:57,240 --> 01:00:01,000
Speaker 1: to control what you see all day you are in practice,

1101
01:00:01,080 --> 01:00:03,920
Speaker 1: whether you know you think about this or not, in practice,

1102
01:00:03,960 --> 01:00:07,160
Speaker 1: you're giving your consent to somebody to shape who you

1103
01:00:07,240 --> 01:00:10,800
Speaker 1: become as a person. And uh, and that that's a

1104
01:00:10,800 --> 01:00:12,959
Speaker 1: lot of power, that's a lot of faith to put

1105
01:00:13,000 --> 01:00:16,120
Speaker 1: in some business. He goes on from here to discuss

1106
01:00:16,160 --> 01:00:21,000
Speaker 1: another destructive force in human discourse, memes. Um. So this

1107
01:00:21,080 --> 01:00:23,000
Speaker 1: is that this is one of these areas where when

1108
01:00:23,040 --> 01:00:24,960
Speaker 1: I talk about memes, I feel like often just come

1109
01:00:25,000 --> 01:00:27,760
Speaker 1: off like an old person, an old, grumpy person who

1110
01:00:27,760 --> 01:00:30,760
Speaker 1: doesn't understand how the kids talk, you know, complaining about memes.

1111
01:00:30,760 --> 01:00:33,160
Speaker 1: But no, I I am with you there. Even when

1112
01:00:33,200 --> 01:00:35,200
Speaker 1: I see a meme that's funny, and I see him

1113
01:00:35,200 --> 01:00:37,880
Speaker 1: all the time, you know, I'm not. I'm not above memes.

1114
01:00:37,920 --> 01:00:40,920
Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, some are really funny and I like them,

1115
01:00:40,960 --> 01:00:43,080
Speaker 1: but there's a part of me that always sort of rebels.

1116
01:00:43,560 --> 01:00:45,240
Speaker 1: And I think it has to do with what we

1117
01:00:45,280 --> 01:00:48,200
Speaker 1: were talking about about context earlier. You know, I worry

1118
01:00:48,240 --> 01:00:53,920
Speaker 1: about meme culture degrading the context of original images and

1119
01:00:54,000 --> 01:00:57,720
Speaker 1: text in a way that that just constantly batters down

1120
01:00:57,800 --> 01:01:01,600
Speaker 1: our defenses and batters down our desire to understand things.

1121
01:01:01,680 --> 01:01:04,600
Speaker 1: And in their original meaning. Yeah, he He writes that

1122
01:01:04,720 --> 01:01:07,720
Speaker 1: memes may at first, you know, when we first engage

1123
01:01:07,760 --> 01:01:11,040
Speaker 1: with them, they might seem to amplify what we're feeling

1124
01:01:11,160 --> 01:01:13,600
Speaker 1: or trying to say. And you know, for instance, somebody

1125
01:01:13,600 --> 01:01:16,240
Speaker 1: posts a bit of h it's news or thought, and

1126
01:01:16,360 --> 01:01:17,840
Speaker 1: you back it up with like, what do you see

1127
01:01:17,840 --> 01:01:20,120
Speaker 1: in so many Facebook responses? Or I guess on other

1128
01:01:20,120 --> 01:01:22,440
Speaker 1: social media platforms as well, you see like gifts and

1129
01:01:22,520 --> 01:01:25,600
Speaker 1: memes that seem to be sort of an amen brother

1130
01:01:25,800 --> 01:01:29,160
Speaker 1: kind of an argument or or or some other interaction

1131
01:01:29,200 --> 01:01:33,280
Speaker 1: with the content. But but but ultimately, like this, this

1132
01:01:33,320 --> 01:01:37,120
Speaker 1: feeling of amplification is an illusion. You're only reinforcing the

1133
01:01:37,120 --> 01:01:40,800
Speaker 1: notion that virality is truth. Whatever is the most viral

1134
01:01:41,040 --> 01:01:43,960
Speaker 1: is rewarded, and that's a key part of Bummer's design.

1135
01:01:44,520 --> 01:01:47,520
Speaker 1: But just because it's viral does not mean it is

1136
01:01:47,600 --> 01:01:51,400
Speaker 1: the truth. And uh, which seems like an overstatement of

1137
01:01:51,440 --> 01:01:54,160
Speaker 1: the obvious when I say it like that, But but again,

1138
01:01:54,240 --> 01:01:57,040
Speaker 1: don't think about you know, think about the way we

1139
01:01:57,080 --> 01:02:00,320
Speaker 1: interact with it and the way we use memes. I mean,

1140
01:02:00,800 --> 01:02:04,240
Speaker 1: if you go to any fact checking website, just pick

1141
01:02:04,320 --> 01:02:05,880
Speaker 1: your favorite, I mean, and pull it a fact or

1142
01:02:05,920 --> 01:02:10,480
Speaker 1: whatever and you like, scroll down and you scroll down

1143
01:02:10,520 --> 01:02:15,560
Speaker 1: to see you know, like truth ratings by source, what's

1144
01:02:15,600 --> 01:02:19,200
Speaker 1: always the number one source of total fabrications. You might

1145
01:02:19,240 --> 01:02:22,120
Speaker 1: think of immediately your least favorite politician, But no, it's

1146
01:02:22,160 --> 01:02:25,960
Speaker 1: not a person. It's viral image, right, Viral image is

1147
01:02:26,000 --> 01:02:28,520
Speaker 1: always the number one source of false facts that are

1148
01:02:28,680 --> 01:02:32,400
Speaker 1: spreading around the internet. Why is that, Well, because viral

1149
01:02:32,520 --> 01:02:36,880
Speaker 1: image is an extremely powerful method for spreading falsehoods. It

1150
01:02:37,360 --> 01:02:40,840
Speaker 1: spreads way easier than somebody going on TV and saying them.

1151
01:02:41,560 --> 01:02:43,160
Speaker 1: And here goes on from here to you know, also

1152
01:02:43,400 --> 01:02:47,160
Speaker 1: point out that in many of the these bummer companies

1153
01:02:47,560 --> 01:02:50,200
Speaker 1: and in some of the key individuals associated with them,

1154
01:02:50,320 --> 01:02:52,200
Speaker 1: you know, they're also they also put a lot of

1155
01:02:52,240 --> 01:02:57,520
Speaker 1: emphasis on grander ideas of organizing all information, of providing

1156
01:02:57,520 --> 01:03:02,040
Speaker 1: communities with purpose of creating AI. And ultimately, he says,

1157
01:03:02,160 --> 01:03:04,280
Speaker 1: you know, this is a this is a danger to

1158
01:03:04,960 --> 01:03:09,000
Speaker 1: to personhood. You know that there's a spiritual danger uh,

1159
01:03:09,000 --> 01:03:11,760
Speaker 1: to us in our sense of personhood when we start,

1160
01:03:12,080 --> 01:03:14,720
Speaker 1: you know, putting too much emphasis on these these non

1161
01:03:14,840 --> 01:03:20,880
Speaker 1: human models of of thinking and humanity. Uh. You know which, again,

1162
01:03:20,920 --> 01:03:23,440
Speaker 1: this is getting into kind of heavy, headier territory than

1163
01:03:23,480 --> 01:03:26,560
Speaker 1: most of the book. But I think it's it's an

1164
01:03:26,600 --> 01:03:29,800
Speaker 1: interesting case. You know what is how how are these

1165
01:03:29,960 --> 01:03:33,600
Speaker 1: powerful corporations thinking about what it is to be human?

1166
01:03:33,880 --> 01:03:37,080
Speaker 1: And then how is that changing the definition at least

1167
01:03:37,120 --> 01:03:39,480
Speaker 1: like the sort of the spiritual definition and the self

1168
01:03:39,520 --> 01:03:44,760
Speaker 1: defining principle of personhood. So again, like this this argument

1169
01:03:44,760 --> 01:03:46,680
Speaker 1: in the book, I it does have I think there

1170
01:03:46,760 --> 01:03:49,120
Speaker 1: is a possibility that you hear this or even you

1171
01:03:49,360 --> 01:03:52,040
Speaker 1: read it and you start, you know, asking yourself, well,

1172
01:03:52,120 --> 01:03:54,720
Speaker 1: is that that really the case? Are we're really thinking

1173
01:03:54,760 --> 01:03:57,000
Speaker 1: about social media like it's a religion? Is it still?

1174
01:03:57,120 --> 01:04:00,200
Speaker 1: Is it? Is it actually uh serving a purpose us

1175
01:04:00,200 --> 01:04:04,440
Speaker 1: that is akin to religion? And I think I think

1176
01:04:04,440 --> 01:04:06,640
Speaker 1: he makes a strong case. I think that I think

1177
01:04:06,640 --> 01:04:07,960
Speaker 1: it's one of those things where you kind of like

1178
01:04:08,200 --> 01:04:10,440
Speaker 1: you wake up one day and you realize, oh, I

1179
01:04:11,040 --> 01:04:13,920
Speaker 1: have joined the church social media and I've actually I've

1180
01:04:13,960 --> 01:04:17,400
Speaker 1: been attending services for years and I didn't quite realize it.

1181
01:04:17,480 --> 01:04:21,000
Speaker 1: You know, you know, you tend to think of of

1182
01:04:21,040 --> 01:04:23,560
Speaker 1: a religion as you know, as this as a as

1183
01:04:23,560 --> 01:04:25,720
Speaker 1: a church or a temple, as these images of God's

1184
01:04:25,920 --> 01:04:28,880
Speaker 1: and you don't think of the roles that they play

1185
01:04:28,960 --> 01:04:32,800
Speaker 1: in a culture and how even as you know, for

1186
01:04:32,840 --> 01:04:35,800
Speaker 1: the most part, and you know in many cultures there

1187
01:04:35,840 --> 01:04:38,920
Speaker 1: is a movement away from these organized religions. You know,

1188
01:04:38,960 --> 01:04:41,360
Speaker 1: there's this there's this possibility that we are we are

1189
01:04:41,400 --> 01:04:45,880
Speaker 1: rebuilding something that operates in much the same way, or

1190
01:04:45,920 --> 01:04:49,080
Speaker 1: maybe in just some of the same worst ways, Yeah,

1191
01:04:49,120 --> 01:04:51,600
Speaker 1: without without some of the same, without providing some of

1192
01:04:51,600 --> 01:04:54,160
Speaker 1: the best. Because I've you know, as I've discussed in

1193
01:04:54,200 --> 01:04:56,160
Speaker 1: the show before, you know, I think they're I think

1194
01:04:56,520 --> 01:05:01,600
Speaker 1: religion and spirituality, uh that they both have tremendous benefits

1195
01:05:01,880 --> 01:05:06,080
Speaker 1: uh to individuals and as certainly to uh uh to

1196
01:05:06,280 --> 01:05:08,760
Speaker 1: societies and uh you know, you can get that sense

1197
01:05:08,760 --> 01:05:11,680
Speaker 1: of community with a religious organization. You know, they can

1198
01:05:11,720 --> 01:05:15,880
Speaker 1: do a great deal of harm if they are you know,

1199
01:05:16,280 --> 01:05:20,280
Speaker 1: if they have toxic beliefs wound up into their their fabric,

1200
01:05:20,960 --> 01:05:26,000
Speaker 1: or they they promote uh toxic personality dynamics. Sometimes yes, certainly,

1201
01:05:26,560 --> 01:05:29,240
Speaker 1: but but yeah, we we would. What we don't want

1202
01:05:29,280 --> 01:05:31,880
Speaker 1: to do is certainly to put all the of that

1203
01:05:31,920 --> 01:05:34,440
Speaker 1: aside and then rebuild. Yeah, like like you say, a

1204
01:05:34,720 --> 01:05:37,160
Speaker 1: new digital religion that is based on most of the

1205
01:05:37,200 --> 01:05:40,360
Speaker 1: worst qualities of what came before. Yeah, I mean, I

1206
01:05:40,560 --> 01:05:44,160
Speaker 1: I find most of this book a pretty compelling message.

1207
01:05:44,160 --> 01:05:46,440
Speaker 1: But I do want to emphasize again that it's like

1208
01:05:46,600 --> 01:05:49,960
Speaker 1: um it emphasizes a lot of what's negative about the

1209
01:05:50,000 --> 01:05:53,960
Speaker 1: current model of social media. But even with these like

1210
01:05:54,040 --> 01:05:57,400
Speaker 1: bummer companies, he doesn't demonize. He's not saying, and we're

1211
01:05:57,440 --> 01:05:59,280
Speaker 1: not saying that like all the people who work at

1212
01:05:59,280 --> 01:06:01,960
Speaker 1: these companies are bad people. We're not even saying that

1213
01:06:02,040 --> 01:06:04,880
Speaker 1: like necessarily all the things done by these companies are

1214
01:06:04,880 --> 01:06:07,160
Speaker 1: all their products are bad. I mean, like you know,

1215
01:06:07,320 --> 01:06:10,920
Speaker 1: Facebook and Google and all these companies have. They provide

1216
01:06:10,920 --> 01:06:14,120
Speaker 1: real technologies and real products that do you know, great

1217
01:06:14,160 --> 01:06:16,640
Speaker 1: things for people's lives, that make all kinds of things easier.

1218
01:06:16,760 --> 01:06:20,080
Speaker 1: They provide enormous wealth and convenience and stuff like that.

1219
01:06:20,160 --> 01:06:23,520
Speaker 1: So it's not that like everything these companies do is bad.

1220
01:06:23,560 --> 01:06:25,440
Speaker 1: I mean that that's not true by any stretch of

1221
01:06:25,440 --> 01:06:28,720
Speaker 1: the imagination. It's just that there are certain elements about

1222
01:06:28,760 --> 01:06:32,840
Speaker 1: the business model of especially the social media platforms, and

1223
01:06:32,920 --> 01:06:36,640
Speaker 1: specifically it's the element that its behavior modification for rent

1224
01:06:37,120 --> 01:06:39,760
Speaker 1: that really do need to be reformed. And that's where

1225
01:06:39,960 --> 01:06:41,960
Speaker 1: his recommendation comes in. He says, if you want to

1226
01:06:41,960 --> 01:06:47,520
Speaker 1: give these companies financial incentive to reform delete your accounts. Right, Yeah,

1227
01:06:47,520 --> 01:06:51,760
Speaker 1: the bummer illness is there in social media, and the

1228
01:06:51,800 --> 01:06:53,960
Speaker 1: only way to get rid of it, to rid the

1229
01:06:53,960 --> 01:06:57,400
Speaker 1: host of that that infection, is to step away from it.

1230
01:06:57,480 --> 01:07:01,200
Speaker 1: To have to create this financial incentive for those for

1231
01:07:01,280 --> 01:07:05,320
Speaker 1: these corporations to change and and ultimately, yeah, he has

1232
01:07:05,360 --> 01:07:09,040
Speaker 1: this positive view, this optimistic view that it can change

1233
01:07:09,120 --> 01:07:10,600
Speaker 1: that if we were to do this, if we're all

1234
01:07:10,640 --> 01:07:13,000
Speaker 1: to do this, not all at once, but perhaps this

1235
01:07:13,080 --> 01:07:16,840
Speaker 1: gradual awakening, uh to the reality, you know, we could

1236
01:07:16,840 --> 01:07:19,880
Speaker 1: reach the point where social media can exist in a

1237
01:07:19,960 --> 01:07:24,080
Speaker 1: form that is not not demeaning of our personhood, that

1238
01:07:24,200 --> 01:07:28,200
Speaker 1: is not modifying our behavior to the benefit of you know,

1239
01:07:28,680 --> 01:07:33,760
Speaker 1: you know, unknown corporations or by state or non state players. Yes. There.

1240
01:07:33,760 --> 01:07:35,560
Speaker 1: So there are a ton of other arguments he gets

1241
01:07:35,600 --> 01:07:37,720
Speaker 1: into in the book that we did not have time

1242
01:07:37,760 --> 01:07:39,880
Speaker 1: to address today. Of course, you know, we're not going

1243
01:07:39,920 --> 01:07:41,680
Speaker 1: to address everything in the book. If we can get

1244
01:07:41,760 --> 01:07:44,280
Speaker 1: Jared Lannier to come on the show sometime, I'd be

1245
01:07:44,280 --> 01:07:47,760
Speaker 1: interested in talking about some of the other ones, uh, especially,

1246
01:07:48,040 --> 01:07:51,280
Speaker 1: but also I am interested in hearing from listeners who

1247
01:07:51,360 --> 01:07:54,680
Speaker 1: who disagree maybe who or you know agree or disagree

1248
01:07:55,000 --> 01:07:57,880
Speaker 1: because one thing I recognize is that I think I

1249
01:07:58,000 --> 01:08:01,600
Speaker 1: have an emotional predispos position to bias in favor of

1250
01:08:01,640 --> 01:08:04,920
Speaker 1: these arguments. Uh, simply because I I feel like in

1251
01:08:04,960 --> 01:08:08,480
Speaker 1: my life I have witnessed a lot of negativity growing

1252
01:08:08,520 --> 01:08:13,320
Speaker 1: out of social media. I personally, emotionally don't like platforms

1253
01:08:13,360 --> 01:08:16,759
Speaker 1: like Facebook and Twitter and and so you know, I

1254
01:08:16,760 --> 01:08:19,599
Speaker 1: I've got a predisposition that makes this scene, this all

1255
01:08:19,640 --> 01:08:22,080
Speaker 1: seemed good to me. So I'd be interested in hearing,

1256
01:08:22,160 --> 01:08:24,960
Speaker 1: you know, the arguments presented to the contrary that that

1257
01:08:25,000 --> 01:08:27,400
Speaker 1: would go against my biases that say, no, maybe it's

1258
01:08:27,439 --> 01:08:30,920
Speaker 1: not as bad as he's representing. Right. And likewise, if

1259
01:08:30,960 --> 01:08:34,439
Speaker 1: anyone out there has quit social media, if you have

1260
01:08:34,720 --> 01:08:38,160
Speaker 1: deleted your social media accounts, I'd be interested to hear

1261
01:08:38,320 --> 01:08:40,519
Speaker 1: your take on how that went. You know why, you know,

1262
01:08:40,560 --> 01:08:43,360
Speaker 1: why did you do it? Uh? Did did you accomplish

1263
01:08:43,439 --> 01:08:46,720
Speaker 1: what you hope to accomplish by stepping away? Uh? You know,

1264
01:08:46,760 --> 01:08:49,479
Speaker 1: all this is a fair game for discussion. So again,

1265
01:08:49,640 --> 01:08:51,599
Speaker 1: the title of the book is Ten Arguments for Deleting

1266
01:08:51,600 --> 01:08:54,880
Speaker 1: Your Social Media Accounts right Now by Jared Lanier. That's

1267
01:08:55,040 --> 01:08:58,160
Speaker 1: l A in I E. R. It's as of this recording,

1268
01:08:58,200 --> 01:09:01,280
Speaker 1: it's currently available in hard back and it's coming out

1269
01:09:01,280 --> 01:09:03,920
Speaker 1: in paperback very soon. Yeah. If it's not out by

1270
01:09:03,920 --> 01:09:07,240
Speaker 1: the time this episode publishes, it will be coming out soon. Yeah.

1271
01:09:07,280 --> 01:09:10,200
Speaker 1: So again, highly recommend this read and would love to

1272
01:09:10,280 --> 01:09:13,679
Speaker 1: hear from listeners who read it as well. In the meantime,

1273
01:09:13,720 --> 01:09:15,720
Speaker 1: If you want to follow what we do, head on

1274
01:09:15,840 --> 01:09:18,080
Speaker 1: over to stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. And

1275
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Speaker 1: if you want to support the show, rate and review

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Speaker 1: us wherever you have the power to do so and

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Speaker 1: make sure you have subscribed huge thanks to our excellent

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Speaker 1: audio producer, Maya Cole. If you would like to get

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Speaker 1: in touch with us with feedback on today's episode to

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Speaker 1: suggest a topic for the future to follow up on

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Speaker 1: any of the prompts we just issued, you can email

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Speaker 1: us at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind dot com.

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Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is a production of iHeart

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Speaker 1: Radio's How Stuff Works. For more podcasts from my Heart Radio,

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Speaker 1: visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

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Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows. The twin fourth Foot, Proper

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Speaker 1: Foo