1 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots podcast. 2 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:18,919 Speaker 1: I'm Joe Wisenthal and I'm Tracy Halloway. We haven't talked 3 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:22,439 Speaker 1: about it in a few weeks, but crypto crisis side, 4 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:25,320 Speaker 1: there's always volatility. It's clearly not slowing down at all. 5 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:28,760 Speaker 1: I feel like we have been talking about crypto over 6 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:30,560 Speaker 1: the past few weeks, but I guess I guess we 7 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:33,599 Speaker 1: haven't on the podcast, We've written about it on the 8 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:37,760 Speaker 1: Odd Lots site. There's still a lot going on. I mean, 9 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:40,559 Speaker 1: like every day it seems there's a new investment in 10 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 1: the space. People are getting more and more excited about defy. Uh. 11 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 1: These random tokens keep taking off at the same time, Um, 12 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:52,919 Speaker 1: everyone's talking about n f t s. The list goes on, right. 13 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:55,440 Speaker 1: You know what I feel like with crypto, and it's funny, 14 00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:57,760 Speaker 1: like a joke, you know, it's kind of half true. 15 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:00,320 Speaker 1: We haven't been talking about it lately. I think guess 16 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 1: the issue is if you I feel like, if you 17 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 1: go three weeks without having a crypto episode of the podcast, 18 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:08,840 Speaker 1: or if I sort of tune out of crypto for 19 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:11,120 Speaker 1: a few weeks because say I'm interested in supply chains 20 00:01:11,440 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 1: or lumber or inflation or something. Then when I try 21 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 1: to tune back in, I'm like, what the heck just happened? 22 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:21,280 Speaker 1: Because everything the stand has changed so fast, and the 23 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:23,039 Speaker 1: news story of the new coin that people are to 24 00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:26,760 Speaker 1: exchange so fast that I feel like I'm totally behind. 25 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:29,120 Speaker 1: So three weeks of the crypto space feels like three 26 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:31,760 Speaker 1: months or a year. Yeah, it's sort of like a 27 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:35,120 Speaker 1: dog years type phenomenon, right, Like crypto just seems to 28 00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:38,960 Speaker 1: be moving faster than everyone else. Yeah, So anyway, let's 29 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 1: I want to just get right into it. I'm very excited. Um. 30 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 1: There's a long time by crypto standards VC firm or 31 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 1: investment firm called Paradigm. If you say the name Paradigm 32 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:52,360 Speaker 1: to people like in crypto circles, it's like this like 33 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:57,160 Speaker 1: hushed tone, because like there's such reverence for this firm. 34 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 1: Everyone respects this firm, and they've recently raised the biggest 35 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:05,640 Speaker 1: crypto I think VC is the right word term, but 36 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:09,560 Speaker 1: the biggest crypto investment fund as of now and today 37 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:12,919 Speaker 1: we're recording this November. Who knows, the record is probably 38 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 1: gonna be broken in about three days, but they have 39 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:18,560 Speaker 1: raised the biggest fund ever to invest in in the 40 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:22,840 Speaker 1: space of two point five billion dollars and we are 41 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:25,320 Speaker 1: going to uh talk to one of their co founders 42 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:28,000 Speaker 1: about what they planned to do. Great, can't wait. I'm 43 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 1: very excited. I want to bring in Matt Wong. He 44 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:33,919 Speaker 1: is the co founder and managing partner at Paradigm. Matt, 45 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:36,679 Speaker 1: thank you so much for coming on odd lots, Hi Joe, 46 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:40,560 Speaker 1: Hi Tracy, thanks for having me. Absolutely so. Like I 47 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:43,399 Speaker 1: said in the intro, I feel like when I've been 48 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:46,079 Speaker 1: in crypto circles, are hanging out with crypto people, and 49 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:48,840 Speaker 1: like you bring up Paradigm, people are like, oh, yeah, 50 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:50,800 Speaker 1: they're legit. Like there's a lot of like kind of 51 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 1: fakers in the space. We all sort of know that, 52 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:55,080 Speaker 1: and there's a lot of people that just arrived on 53 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:57,920 Speaker 1: the scene five minutes ago. But before we talk about 54 00:02:57,919 --> 00:03:00,600 Speaker 1: this new fund, what do you talk about, Uh, where 55 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:04,040 Speaker 1: did Paradigm come from? What is its background and history 56 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:07,519 Speaker 1: and what's its sort of basic story. Yeah? Sure, well 57 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:12,360 Speaker 1: you very grateful that that's what people are saying about us. Look, 58 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:15,960 Speaker 1: I think Paradigm started from a pretty simple place. My 59 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 1: co founder, whose name is Fred Arison, who had previously 60 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 1: co founded coin Base, and I were longtime acquaintances and friends. 61 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:28,120 Speaker 1: Back in two thousand seventeen, when I was I like 62 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:32,160 Speaker 1: to say, a boring venture capitalist at Sequoia focused on 63 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 1: all kinds of different technology investing and started to spend 64 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 1: a lot more time in the crypto space. We would 65 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:42,440 Speaker 1: you know, meet up often and consider new investments. And 66 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 1: one of our observations at the time, actually there were two. 67 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 1: The first was, and you know, Fred gained this early 68 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 1: but a very very deep conviction that what was enabled 69 00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 1: by crypto was likely to be one of the most 70 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 1: impactful sort of spaces to be spending time and over 71 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 1: the next ten years. And we had already seen bitcoin 72 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 1: as a digital monetary asset grow from effectively zero two 73 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:19,119 Speaker 1: hundreds of billions. We started to see the early days 74 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 1: of defied take off on top of the theory um 75 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:24,120 Speaker 1: and so it was just very clear to us that 76 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:27,120 Speaker 1: this was the future. And yet when you looked at 77 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:32,480 Speaker 1: the traditional tech investing establishment, I think it was very underrated. 78 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:37,799 Speaker 1: In fact, most very smart and well meaning people often 79 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 1: when they take a first look at crypto, especially back then, 80 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 1: you know, they couldn't help but come away with a 81 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 1: sense that maybe there wasn't so much substance, it was 82 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 1: you know, there were dog coins and cat coins, and 83 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:52,599 Speaker 1: it was sort of what what is the point of 84 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 1: all this? And and yet when we spent time on 85 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:58,840 Speaker 1: the front lines with some of the protocol developers and 86 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:02,680 Speaker 1: the team's building real you know, hard technology in the space, 87 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:06,719 Speaker 1: we just haven't had a totally different view. So so 88 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:09,599 Speaker 1: sort of born out of that conviction in crypto. And then, 89 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:15,000 Speaker 1: you know, somewhat separately, we looked around and you know, 90 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 1: I would talk to Fred he had co founded coin 91 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:20,560 Speaker 1: based in two thousand and twelve. So if you were 92 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:25,039 Speaker 1: starting another crypto project today, is there another investor that 93 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 1: you would be really excited to work with? And I 94 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:30,600 Speaker 1: think the answer for both of us at that point 95 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 1: in time was no. And so Paradigm really came from 96 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:39,320 Speaker 1: us kind of building the investment firm that we would 97 00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:44,840 Speaker 1: have wanted as entrepreneurs. And to us, one of the 98 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 1: biggest parts of that is how native we are and 99 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:54,240 Speaker 1: our team is to the technology. And I think this 100 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:58,039 Speaker 1: is a general pattern you see across technology waves where 101 00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 1: some new platform exists, whether it's mobile phones or the 102 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 1: Internet or crypto, and it's very easy to apply kind 103 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:11,720 Speaker 1: of old analogies to the new medium, and yet it 104 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:14,560 Speaker 1: turns out that some of the most important companies are 105 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:17,920 Speaker 1: innovations that come out of a particular wave end up 106 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:21,479 Speaker 1: being deeply native to it. And so that was kind 107 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 1: of our aspiration around paradigm is sort of getting very 108 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:29,720 Speaker 1: close to the metal technically and being able to help 109 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:35,040 Speaker 1: support and guide the people building this future. So I 110 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:38,560 Speaker 1: want to go back to something you said, what exactly 111 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:42,480 Speaker 1: in your opinion does crypto enable And this kind of 112 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:45,480 Speaker 1: gets to the tension that you were describing with some 113 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:48,480 Speaker 1: other vcs they don't see that much value in it. 114 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 1: You know, critics have described blockchain at various points in 115 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 1: time as a solution in search of a problem. We've 116 00:06:55,440 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 1: talked on the show about how a lot of DeFi 117 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:03,280 Speaker 1: technology seems to be focused on more defied So it's 118 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 1: sort of, you know, trading coins or tokens all the 119 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:09,040 Speaker 1: way down, But what is it that you see give 120 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 1: us the elevator pitch? Sure. I think at the very 121 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 1: highest level we're seeing crypto disrupt in several stages. The 122 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 1: first was this idea of bitcoin as digital money, and 123 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 1: you know, looking into the history of bitcoin, I think 124 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 1: a similar dynamic was always present, which was is bitcoin 125 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:40,320 Speaker 1: distinguishable from two lips? Is it tulips or is it 126 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 1: you know, the next digital monetary standard. And one observation 127 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:50,880 Speaker 1: would be like when you talk to people in developed countries, 128 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:54,880 Speaker 1: they often don't see the point of bitcoin, and when 129 00:07:54,920 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 1: you talk to people in developing countries, it almost clicks immediately, 130 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 1: whether it's countries in Latin or countries like China and 131 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 1: Russia where perhaps the rule of law or currency stability 132 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:12,520 Speaker 1: is less taken for granted, and so there's a form 133 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:16,280 Speaker 1: of dollar privilege in a lot of ways around bitcoin. 134 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 1: So I think that is the first category and not 135 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 1: to be underrated. I think that could be tremendously powerful 136 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:27,920 Speaker 1: for the world as it progresses. The second is, which 137 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:31,040 Speaker 1: is quite a natural extension of digital money, is this 138 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:34,480 Speaker 1: idea of to centralized finance. Now that you have digitally 139 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:38,760 Speaker 1: native assets, beyond just sending them back and forth or 140 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:43,000 Speaker 1: holding them, you can now do much more complex things 141 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:45,559 Speaker 1: with them and program them. And I think one thing 142 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 1: that's unique about defies the protocol can encode certain rules 143 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 1: that you can trust will continue to be the case 144 00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:57,760 Speaker 1: several years from now. In a lot of ways, It's 145 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:03,080 Speaker 1: much like you know in the in the country governance context. 146 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:07,960 Speaker 1: The idea of strong property rights. Strong property rights enables 147 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:11,680 Speaker 1: an economy to form in a way that's truly long term. 148 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 1: People can build businesses and make decisions knowing that there 149 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:19,640 Speaker 1: will be stability over many years or decades. And similarly, 150 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:24,040 Speaker 1: around DEFY, the idea that say a decentralized exchange protocol 151 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 1: like unit swap might continue operating exactly the way it's 152 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 1: operating today ten years from now or twenty years from now, 153 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:35,120 Speaker 1: really enables other people who might want to plug into 154 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 1: that protocol are build on top of it to do so. 155 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:41,200 Speaker 1: So I think that digital commitment is sort of a 156 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 1: key part of what these blockchains enable. And then finally, 157 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:50,000 Speaker 1: I think now that defy has really scaled. I think 158 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:54,679 Speaker 1: we're seeing, especially over the past year, cryptocurrencies and crypto 159 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 1: protocols broaden in the sort of types of industries that 160 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 1: they a can touch. And you know, this year we've 161 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:05,480 Speaker 1: seen the rise of n f t s and the 162 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 1: notions of digital art. Crypto gaming has been become really popular, 163 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 1: and so I think we'll see crypto brought into touch many, 164 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:17,280 Speaker 1: many different parts of the modern Internet. So let's talk 165 00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:20,080 Speaker 1: about this fund As I mentioned, I think it was 166 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:22,280 Speaker 1: just a couple of weeks ago you announced it a 167 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:25,200 Speaker 1: two and a half billion dollar fund, which as of 168 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:28,760 Speaker 1: now is the biggest crypto fund that's been raised. What 169 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:30,720 Speaker 1: do you see as the big opportunities I mean you 170 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 1: talked to sort of broad categories defy that's very broad now. 171 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:37,199 Speaker 1: It means a lot of things, n f T, the 172 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:39,599 Speaker 1: sort of n f T S, gaming, sort of like 173 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 1: certain culture of things. What specifically do you see as 174 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:47,360 Speaker 1: the big opportunities that they're going to go after with 175 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:50,320 Speaker 1: this fund, with this money. You know, back to when 176 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:52,959 Speaker 1: we started Paradigm in two thousand and eighteen, we had 177 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:56,400 Speaker 1: a lot of conviction about the progression of crypto over 178 00:10:56,400 --> 00:11:01,000 Speaker 1: the coming decade, and we spent a lot of the 179 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:06,439 Speaker 1: early years investing across defy, UM, you know, various other areas. 180 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:08,920 Speaker 1: I think one thing that's become very notable over the 181 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:13,120 Speaker 1: past year is this the rise of what I think 182 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:18,160 Speaker 1: the industry is terming Web three. This notion of blockchains 183 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:22,359 Speaker 1: is a way to build for many different other categories 184 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:26,559 Speaker 1: of the Internet, you know, stepping back from the specific opportunities, 185 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:29,840 Speaker 1: one thing that's particularly notable to us, and we pay 186 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:32,240 Speaker 1: a lot of attention to is kind of the talent 187 00:11:32,320 --> 00:11:35,960 Speaker 1: flows into the industry. When we started in two thousand eighteen, 188 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 1: it was Crypto was mostly a ghost town. It was 189 00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 1: people who were present in two thousand six, two thousand 190 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:48,000 Speaker 1: seventeen who despite the bear market, we're continuing to build. 191 00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:55,199 Speaker 1: Today it's become much more consensus almost that Web three 192 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 1: and Crypto might present part of the future for the Internet. 193 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:02,280 Speaker 1: So we're seeing a lot of interesting engineering and entrepreneurial 194 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:05,480 Speaker 1: talent come into the space. And you know, I'm not 195 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:08,400 Speaker 1: trying to avoid the question. I do think what we're 196 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 1: focused on is sort of the long term potential that's possible, 197 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:16,520 Speaker 1: and also kind of the short term signs of quality 198 00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:22,040 Speaker 1: and innovation and following that because I think ultimately, for 199 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:25,480 Speaker 1: any new innovation that's you know, happening at such a 200 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:30,160 Speaker 1: primitive level, I think it's always hard to fully predict 201 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 1: exactly what's going to happen, whether it's like the Internet itself, 202 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:37,600 Speaker 1: for you know, the advent of electricity or something. I 203 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:43,200 Speaker 1: think the applications eventually surprise us, and so we're more 204 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 1: focused on keeping our ear to the ground, understanding the 205 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:49,840 Speaker 1: tech deeply, and spending time where the builders are spending. 206 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:10,040 Speaker 1: So how do you actually go about investing in a 207 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:12,720 Speaker 1: crypto business if you find one that you like, Because 208 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:15,600 Speaker 1: I mean, there are multiple ways to do this, but 209 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:19,440 Speaker 1: I guess the two big ones would be, you know, 210 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 1: you just buy a stake in a crypto business sort 211 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:27,320 Speaker 1: of the old fashioned venture capitalist way, or you could 212 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:31,360 Speaker 1: buy the project's token and maybe that comes with some 213 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 1: sort of governance, say via a dow or something like that. 214 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:38,640 Speaker 1: How do how do you sort of weigh those options? Yes, 215 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:44,160 Speaker 1: it's a very fascinating question, and I think it's you know, 216 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:47,640 Speaker 1: as a whole somewhat an open one for the industry, 217 00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 1: which is, you know, for hundreds of years even we've 218 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:56,680 Speaker 1: had this very well established and evolved form of kind 219 00:13:56,720 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 1: of coordinating human activity around corporations or elcs and having 220 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:07,360 Speaker 1: sort of investors and outside folks participate in that. And 221 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:09,840 Speaker 1: now all of a sudden, we have the ability to 222 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:14,800 Speaker 1: kind of store the cap table or the you know, 223 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:19,720 Speaker 1: record of value on the blockchain in a sort of trustless, 224 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 1: immutable way that is equivalently good in various ways. And 225 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:27,520 Speaker 1: so there's sort of a question which is a better 226 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:31,280 Speaker 1: fit for the crypto startup of today, And I think 227 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:35,440 Speaker 1: depending on the startup, the answer could be different. Sort 228 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:39,640 Speaker 1: of In practice, we're often investing at the earliest stages 229 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:44,920 Speaker 1: before any digital token might exist, and we do that 230 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 1: through corporate entities as a way to kind of preserve 231 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 1: optionality for the way that the project might ultimately want 232 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 1: to distribute the record of participation. You sort of anticipated 233 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:01,080 Speaker 1: a question that I was go to ask, but I 234 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:03,400 Speaker 1: want to talk about there's something interesting And I think 235 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:06,080 Speaker 1: one of the reasons that people do have this reverence 236 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 1: for Paradigm specifically is because it's clear that you have 237 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:12,880 Speaker 1: a lot of like technical talent, and I think like 238 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:16,160 Speaker 1: vcs always like they love to blog and they love 239 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:18,880 Speaker 1: to opine. They do these like big tweet threads about 240 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:20,840 Speaker 1: how like you know, the future of work is going 241 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:22,760 Speaker 1: to change and stuff like that, and you know, they 242 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:25,000 Speaker 1: all sort of like I want to be writers or something. 243 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 1: But I feel like Paradigm is unique. Like if you 244 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:29,560 Speaker 1: look on your blog, like there's a lot of like 245 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 1: technical stuff and you have colleagues who are literally inventing 246 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:35,680 Speaker 1: new financial products all the time, Like I'm looking at 247 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 1: your blog and one of your colleagues, Dave White, like 248 00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:42,120 Speaker 1: introduced a new type of like futures idea that could 249 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:43,840 Speaker 1: be connected to n f T S. And you have 250 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:47,440 Speaker 1: another like another colleague who I think is Tudonymous, who 251 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:50,520 Speaker 1: like frequently like writes about like finding hacks and stuff 252 00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:53,880 Speaker 1: like that, or like sort of finding exploits in a 253 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:57,680 Speaker 1: token before they're discovered. And so I'm curious, Like it 254 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:02,560 Speaker 1: sounds like the strategy is having your ears close to 255 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:05,640 Speaker 1: the ground, knowing the tech deeply because you don't necessarily 256 00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:08,080 Speaker 1: know where it's going, like nobody really does, but you 257 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 1: know where the talent is going. Talk about this, like 258 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:13,840 Speaker 1: how much of a mote you see that for paradigm, 259 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:17,520 Speaker 1: the idea of like having like deep technical people working 260 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:19,760 Speaker 1: for the fund itself as opposed to just being like 261 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:23,960 Speaker 1: money people. So first of all, I would sort of 262 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:27,560 Speaker 1: acknowledge that I don't think this is what most investment 263 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 1: firms look like. And certainly when we were starting out, 264 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 1: there's always this temptation you know, what have other people done? 265 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:39,840 Speaker 1: And you know what have successful investment firms throughout history done. 266 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:43,480 Speaker 1: There's always wisdom and lessons to be gleaned there, but 267 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:46,400 Speaker 1: we were very focused on just trying to think from 268 00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:50,000 Speaker 1: first principles, like if we were an entrepreneur building a 269 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:52,840 Speaker 1: new crypto startup, who would we want around the table? 270 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 1: Is it possible for an investment firms such as ours 271 00:16:56,880 --> 00:16:59,400 Speaker 1: to be able to add value in a way that 272 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 1: was really meaningful? You know, investors can always write tweet threads, 273 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:06,800 Speaker 1: but we thought we should go further and you know, 274 00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:11,320 Speaker 1: be able to code alongside the companies and you know, 275 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:15,040 Speaker 1: audit their code, etcetera. I think, you know, that's clearly 276 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:18,520 Speaker 1: very valuable and our practical level, and we're continuing to 277 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:22,520 Speaker 1: explore other ways to lean into that. I think also 278 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:26,680 Speaker 1: at an abstract level, you know, one of the potential 279 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:32,159 Speaker 1: promises of cryptos this notion of digitizing more and more 280 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 1: of our institutions and our companies and our infrastructure into 281 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:42,119 Speaker 1: these sort of protocolized forms. And if you envision sort 282 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:45,280 Speaker 1: of a future state in which more and more of 283 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:48,880 Speaker 1: our economy is running on crypto rails, then it seems 284 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 1: almost inevitable that you know, having deeply technical people is 285 00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:57,960 Speaker 1: a really important part of participating in that. And so 286 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:02,439 Speaker 1: just generally in philosoph ethically, we feel like technical expertise 287 00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:05,000 Speaker 1: must be one of the core parts of what we 288 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:09,520 Speaker 1: do at PARA. So in addition to technical expertise, there 289 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 1: was something that you tweeted recently where you asked people, Um, 290 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:16,199 Speaker 1: you know, if if they're good at memes and they 291 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:20,040 Speaker 1: want to work at Paradigm, could they get in touch? Like, 292 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:25,280 Speaker 1: is that is that Tracy is good at memes, so 293 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:29,199 Speaker 1: she's sort of she's thinking about going from the media 294 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:33,160 Speaker 1: the media the crypto pipeline here is this a job 295 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:36,040 Speaker 1: requirement for the crypto space now? Like you have to 296 00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:40,320 Speaker 1: be able to deal in memes and ideas given that, 297 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:42,400 Speaker 1: you know, Joe kind of touched on this in the intro, 298 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 1: but like, given that a lot of what's happening in 299 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:47,639 Speaker 1: the space seems to be driven by different narratives and 300 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:51,080 Speaker 1: those are shifting all the time. Yeah, there's again both 301 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:56,240 Speaker 1: this practical element of I think a lot of modern marketing, 302 00:18:56,800 --> 00:19:01,720 Speaker 1: whether it is for investment firms or come Benese, occurs 303 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:04,800 Speaker 1: through sort of the medium of Twitter and memes and 304 00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:08,479 Speaker 1: memes drive culture in a lot of ways, and so 305 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:11,200 Speaker 1: I think that skill is is very useful. I think 306 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:13,800 Speaker 1: it you know, there's a whole world that operates on 307 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:16,720 Speaker 1: crypto twitter is because you both know from following it, 308 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:20,439 Speaker 1: it's almost a parallel universe to what's happening in the 309 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:23,159 Speaker 1: real world, and if you aren't on crypto Twitter and 310 00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:26,360 Speaker 1: aren't sort of one of these very online people who 311 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:31,480 Speaker 1: is following what's happening, you're sort of not up to 312 00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:34,840 Speaker 1: date on the latest in the culture or the substance 313 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:38,639 Speaker 1: of what's happening in crypto. So I think there's another 314 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:41,840 Speaker 1: element there that's really important. And then finally, I think 315 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:45,560 Speaker 1: if you think about, you know, the hardest problem for 316 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:49,760 Speaker 1: every upstart, whether it's us at Paradigm or one of 317 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:53,400 Speaker 1: the companies or projects we're backing, it's sort of assembling 318 00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:55,439 Speaker 1: a really talented group of people to work on a 319 00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 1: single problem for a long period of time. And I 320 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:01,600 Speaker 1: think that's ultimately what it teks to build something really 321 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:05,320 Speaker 1: great and special. And in a lot of ways, someone 322 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:08,880 Speaker 1: like Elon Musk is a huge part of his success 323 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:12,800 Speaker 1: is his ability to attract sort of all the best 324 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:15,640 Speaker 1: people who want to work on rockets at at this 325 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:19,359 Speaker 1: one rocket company. If you think about the role of 326 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:24,000 Speaker 1: memes and marketing in that effort, I think, you know, 327 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:27,200 Speaker 1: memes are sort of the new way in which one 328 00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:32,639 Speaker 1: can build a narrative around division. It could be something silly, 329 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:35,399 Speaker 1: like you know, a dog coin, or it could be 330 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:39,879 Speaker 1: something you know, serious and important like rockets and everything 331 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:42,400 Speaker 1: in between. And so I think, you know, memes are 332 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:44,199 Speaker 1: all good and fun, and we have you know, a 333 00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:47,600 Speaker 1: great internal channel where everyone's sharing memes. But I think 334 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:52,960 Speaker 1: there's also something deeply powerful about, you know, their role 335 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:56,200 Speaker 1: in the way they're sort of shaping attention and directing 336 00:20:56,520 --> 00:21:02,080 Speaker 1: energy towards certain projects that people get about. So I 337 00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:04,560 Speaker 1: want to ask you. You mentioned that sort of like 338 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:08,520 Speaker 1: one of the interesting properties of crypto is this sort 339 00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:11,760 Speaker 1: of predictability. And you mentioned that there's you know, unit swap, 340 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:14,760 Speaker 1: and I think that's a paradigm investment. You're an investor 341 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:17,719 Speaker 1: in unit swap. You know that code may live on 342 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:20,680 Speaker 1: in its current form for ten or maybe a hundred years, 343 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:23,159 Speaker 1: and so someone could build on top of that code 344 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:26,800 Speaker 1: and build something new and have some expectation that that 345 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:30,200 Speaker 1: is not going to change. When you think about investing, 346 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:34,520 Speaker 1: to what extent do you think about different portfolio investments 347 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:36,879 Speaker 1: or different tokens or different taos that you invest in 348 00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:40,240 Speaker 1: as somewhat being like like, uh, the network effects within 349 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:44,439 Speaker 1: your own companies, within paradigm companies, or within paradigm investments. 350 00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:47,119 Speaker 1: I mean people in traditional tech. But I always talk 351 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:50,440 Speaker 1: about network effects, but it's sort of uh confined. There's 352 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:54,080 Speaker 1: like Facebook's network effect or Twitter, etcetera. To what extent 353 00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:57,239 Speaker 1: do you think about sort of compounding network effects of 354 00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:00,280 Speaker 1: different tokens you invest in that in some way old 355 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:04,800 Speaker 1: or enhance another company or token within your family. It's 356 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:07,800 Speaker 1: a great question, and I think it's present in the 357 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:11,959 Speaker 1: dynamics of the portfolio, which is, if we invest in 358 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:15,880 Speaker 1: protocols that are providing a great value to the ecosystem 359 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:18,159 Speaker 1: and its users, then it often makes a lot of 360 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 1: sense for those protocols to start interoperating or building on 361 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:26,359 Speaker 1: top of each other. And so that's definitely a dynamic 362 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:29,280 Speaker 1: that we'd love to encourage and do think about. I 363 00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:32,480 Speaker 1: think there is actually a nice sort of pre existing 364 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:36,160 Speaker 1: analogy to that effect, where if you look at a 365 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:40,280 Speaker 1: incubator like y Combinator, it's sort of a very common 366 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:45,800 Speaker 1: element that new hy Combinator startups often their first customers 367 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:49,680 Speaker 1: or first hundred customers are actually like other y combinator startups, 368 00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:53,760 Speaker 1: and I think that's been a powerful flywheel for that 369 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 1: community overall. And certainly we do hope that if we're 370 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:02,000 Speaker 1: doing our jobs right, which is, you know, finding and 371 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:06,400 Speaker 1: supporting some of the most ambitious and special crypto entrepreneurs 372 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:08,960 Speaker 1: around the world, that there will be a lot of 373 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:11,680 Speaker 1: benefits to them being in that same community and being 374 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:16,920 Speaker 1: able to work together. I have a slightly theoretical question, 375 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:20,439 Speaker 1: but you know, one of the benefits, or one of 376 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:24,760 Speaker 1: the sort of selling points for crypto has at various 377 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:29,639 Speaker 1: times been described as the manufacturing of artificial scarcity. So 378 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:33,800 Speaker 1: something like bitcoin, there is a limited amount, only a 379 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:36,159 Speaker 1: certain number of coins are ever going to be mined, 380 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:39,680 Speaker 1: and so there's something valuable about them. The same thing 381 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:42,439 Speaker 1: sort of for and f t s. You know, if 382 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:46,680 Speaker 1: you collect a certain type of arts or pieces from 383 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 1: one artist in particular, there's a limited amount. But one 384 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:54,080 Speaker 1: of the things I sometimes wonder about is, with all 385 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:57,040 Speaker 1: the attention on crypto at the moment, and all the 386 00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:03,760 Speaker 1: money flooding into the space, does the artificial scarcity benefit 387 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:07,880 Speaker 1: or case get sort of eroded because you just see 388 00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:12,320 Speaker 1: more and more projects, you know, more tokens, more coins, 389 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:15,840 Speaker 1: more n f t s, and people are just sort 390 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:18,440 Speaker 1: of flitting from one thing to the next, such that 391 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:23,040 Speaker 1: a market, never actually an individual market might get scarce, 392 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:31,000 Speaker 1: but crypto as a total is just multiplying perhaps the 393 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:35,560 Speaker 1: the core underlying question is this one of with an 394 00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:40,359 Speaker 1: oversupply of capital, is that kind of efficient in terms 395 00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:44,600 Speaker 1: of driving towards the innovation that you know, crypto has 396 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:47,639 Speaker 1: the potential to achieve, and at least we think about 397 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 1: it in these terms in which you know, I think 398 00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:54,720 Speaker 1: when markets get overheated, you think of investing as a 399 00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 1: sort of a capital allocation and function for sort of 400 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:02,359 Speaker 1: which experiment mints are worthy of running and once they 401 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:05,800 Speaker 1: start working, which ones are worth supporting more. And in 402 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:10,680 Speaker 1: this environment in which capital is abundant, I think that 403 00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:14,359 Speaker 1: sort of selection function is probably a bit weaker, and 404 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:18,080 Speaker 1: that does make it very hard as an investor, or 405 00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:20,520 Speaker 1: an engineer or an entrepreneur to kind of know what 406 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:24,840 Speaker 1: to pay attention to. And there's certainly this this dynamic 407 00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:27,280 Speaker 1: of the flavor of the week, you know, we we 408 00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:31,840 Speaker 1: often remark internally in some ways there were elements to 409 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:34,919 Speaker 1: miss about the bear market of two thousand eighteen, because 410 00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:39,000 Speaker 1: with nobody paying attention and not that much capital around, 411 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:42,000 Speaker 1: it was actually easier to get work done. People made 412 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:45,399 Speaker 1: more progress, and the people who were building were really 413 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:47,520 Speaker 1: committed because they were doing it even though it was 414 00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:50,720 Speaker 1: really not cool and you know, people made fun of 415 00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:54,159 Speaker 1: them for doing it. So I think we are at 416 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:57,639 Speaker 1: the other end of the spectrum now and the pendulum 417 00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:03,359 Speaker 1: has swung. It's a great time to be a crypto investor, entrepreneur, 418 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:05,840 Speaker 1: and there's a lot of opportunity, but I also think 419 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:09,000 Speaker 1: there's there's a lot of signal to noise to to 420 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:13,280 Speaker 1: work through. Speaking of, um, the other end of the pendulum, 421 00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 1: and I want to get your take on something. One 422 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 1: of the things that gets discussed I don't think particularly 423 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:22,800 Speaker 1: loudly in crypto Twitter or crypto generally, but it's definitely 424 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:27,280 Speaker 1: discussed is the huge gap that people sometimes site between 425 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:31,600 Speaker 1: how coins are valued when they're offered up privately versus 426 00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 1: when those same token projects become ultimately listed. So there 427 00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:38,439 Speaker 1: may be some sort of crypto thing but it's pre token, 428 00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:42,200 Speaker 1: and then the token becomes available on the decentralized exchanges 429 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:44,840 Speaker 1: or on f t X or binance, and people like 430 00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:48,200 Speaker 1: oh ten exits A. Is that the case that they're 431 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:50,359 Speaker 1: in your view right now, that there is still this 432 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 1: huge gap between private valuations and then what how coins 433 00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:59,280 Speaker 1: are valued once they're sort of listed and be you know, 434 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:02,000 Speaker 1: you talk about at the very beginning or early on. 435 00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:06,080 Speaker 1: You want Paradigm to be a place that if I were, 436 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:10,240 Speaker 1: say raising money for a you know, some new token offering, 437 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:12,520 Speaker 1: I would want to go to you. And so how 438 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:15,440 Speaker 1: much is it is? Just sort of like that access 439 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:17,960 Speaker 1: to deal flow you want the first look. You want 440 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,800 Speaker 1: people to say, I want Paradigm money as opposed to 441 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:23,239 Speaker 1: you know, I want to name another one, but as 442 00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:26,199 Speaker 1: opposed to some other fun money. How important is that 443 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:29,640 Speaker 1: sort of like early stage investment in sort of like 444 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:35,320 Speaker 1: where you see delivering returns. Yeah, I think crypto markets 445 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:40,320 Speaker 1: have always been sometimes a puzzle on the valuation side. 446 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 1: I think, you know, relative to other markets, and I 447 00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:49,200 Speaker 1: won't name specific names, but I think there are really substantive, 448 00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:55,200 Speaker 1: credible projects that are maybe worthy of what they're worth, 449 00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:57,439 Speaker 1: and there are others that may be less so. And 450 00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:01,520 Speaker 1: I think there's maybe not as much of a forcing 451 00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:05,399 Speaker 1: function in crypto markets around that. But I think to 452 00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:08,320 Speaker 1: your point on you know, the stage of getting involved, 453 00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:12,640 Speaker 1: we do aspire to get involved as early as possible. 454 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:19,840 Speaker 1: That's in part because we believe that we've built a 455 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:24,280 Speaker 1: team that can help from the earliest days, and especially 456 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:28,200 Speaker 1: when you're building a protocol related project, so much of 457 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:32,800 Speaker 1: getting a protocol right is sort of the initial protocol 458 00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:36,080 Speaker 1: you launch with. In contrast to say a website or 459 00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:39,640 Speaker 1: a mobile app that you're updating every day or every week, 460 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:44,120 Speaker 1: protocols are much less frequent in terms of upgrade cycle, 461 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:47,720 Speaker 1: and so there's a lot of importance We believe in 462 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:50,400 Speaker 1: in getting things right up front, and so we aspire 463 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:53,920 Speaker 1: to to get involved from the earliest days. That being said, 464 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:56,360 Speaker 1: we're humble about the fact that there's going to be 465 00:28:56,400 --> 00:29:00,120 Speaker 1: plenty of great projects that will miss and we we 466 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:04,000 Speaker 1: love participating down the line too, if that's when it 467 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:07,920 Speaker 1: makes sense. So at the other end of getting in 468 00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:12,000 Speaker 1: early is um, you know, actually getting out and the 469 00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:16,440 Speaker 1: exit process um for companies, and I'm curious what that 470 00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:20,720 Speaker 1: looks like for crypto businesses. So, you know, coin Base 471 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:23,960 Speaker 1: went public, but I don't think we've seen many other 472 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:27,000 Speaker 1: crypto entities that have done the same, and part of 473 00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:29,440 Speaker 1: me gets the sense that a lot of them wouldn't 474 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:34,000 Speaker 1: want to. There's sort of attention between disrupting the existing 475 00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 1: world of finance, you know, the traditional listening process, and 476 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:41,520 Speaker 1: what they're trying to do in various ways with crypto 477 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:46,000 Speaker 1: and blockchain. It seems like listing might be sort of contradictory. 478 00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:51,120 Speaker 1: So how do you see the exits for your investments? Sure, so, 479 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:54,080 Speaker 1: for first we we tend not to think too much 480 00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:57,520 Speaker 1: about that because we do you know, we're only three 481 00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:00,960 Speaker 1: years into the life of Paradigm, and we believe a 482 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:05,760 Speaker 1: lot of the best companies or projects will be ten 483 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:09,560 Speaker 1: year or more journeys. But in terms of your structural question, 484 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 1: I think it sort of gets back to the question 485 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:17,280 Speaker 1: earlier about tokens versus equity. There are certain types of 486 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:21,000 Speaker 1: crypto businesses that are, at least today a much better 487 00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:25,200 Speaker 1: fit for the traditional you know, see court model, coin 488 00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:28,880 Speaker 1: based being an example, or you know, exchanges globally around 489 00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:32,520 Speaker 1: the world, software as a service businesses that might be 490 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:37,560 Speaker 1: you know, building software for crypto companies as two examples, 491 00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:40,880 Speaker 1: And so I think a lot of those businesses will 492 00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:45,560 Speaker 1: probably take a more traditional I P O path, And 493 00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:50,520 Speaker 1: maybe the distinction is that their regular businesses and generate 494 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 1: revenue in a normal way, they just happened to serve 495 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:57,360 Speaker 1: the crypto market. And then on the other end of 496 00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:00,560 Speaker 1: the spectrum, there's sort of the crypto protocols that you know, 497 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:04,120 Speaker 1: have tokens from early on, and I would guess You're 498 00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:08,080 Speaker 1: probably right that you know, a lot of those protocols 499 00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:12,560 Speaker 1: probably don't take the traditional I P O path in 500 00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:15,480 Speaker 1: the long run. So I just want to sort of 501 00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 1: crystallize these different options with an actual example. So, if 502 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:24,720 Speaker 1: if you had the option of investing in so Lana 503 00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:28,160 Speaker 1: the token or the coin versus investing in so Lana 504 00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:32,560 Speaker 1: as like a business, which would be the better long 505 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:36,840 Speaker 1: term investment in your view? Well, so maybe apologies for 506 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:41,840 Speaker 1: resisting this particular example, but maybe let me share, Maybe 507 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:44,760 Speaker 1: let me share sort of protocols like Salona, which I 508 00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:47,680 Speaker 1: would categorize as sort of layer one protocols that are 509 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:51,160 Speaker 1: sort of building a full blockchain have sort of a 510 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:55,600 Speaker 1: core monetary unit at their center. I think those types 511 00:31:55,600 --> 00:32:00,880 Speaker 1: of investments we believe ultimately the monetary unit or the 512 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:04,560 Speaker 1: unit of account in Salona's case, sol or an Ethereum's 513 00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:09,720 Speaker 1: case ether, those are the sort of most natural place 514 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:14,200 Speaker 1: for value to accrue in the long run, relative to 515 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:17,160 Speaker 1: a corporate structure that might exist. And in a lot 516 00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:21,800 Speaker 1: of ways, the corporate structure maybe there's sort of somewhat orthogonal, 517 00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:24,480 Speaker 1: and that it's maybe a labs entity or something else 518 00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:27,760 Speaker 1: that's responsible for the development of the core protocol, but 519 00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:32,280 Speaker 1: maybe other things around the ecosystem, but not necessarily um 520 00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:35,000 Speaker 1: a core revenue driver. Right. A lot of these are 521 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:39,080 Speaker 1: non not for profit foundations, right, that's right, that's right, 522 00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:42,520 Speaker 1: And I think that the ecosystem is sort of still 523 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:45,520 Speaker 1: exploring best practices on exactly how to structure all this stuff. 524 00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:48,000 Speaker 1: But that's right. And then on the flip side, you know, 525 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:53,840 Speaker 1: we're investors in a company that provides accounting software or 526 00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:56,720 Speaker 1: tax software called tax Bit, and that's an example where 527 00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:00,160 Speaker 1: besides the fact that it serves the crypto industry, it 528 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:15,760 Speaker 1: looks very much like a traditional software as a service company. 529 00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:24,160 Speaker 1: So you've mentioned that right now kind of feels like 530 00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:28,080 Speaker 1: the other end of the pendulum from and that was 531 00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:30,920 Speaker 1: like the sort of the crypto winter, as was called, 532 00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:34,520 Speaker 1: and we're definitely not we're you know, long crypto summer. 533 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:37,360 Speaker 1: Do you ever look at things that are going on 534 00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:41,720 Speaker 1: right now, whether it's like the million fork of Home, 535 00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:46,400 Speaker 1: you know, some sort of crazy, uh you know, projects 536 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:49,880 Speaker 1: that even the adherents joke about, like they blatantly call 537 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:53,560 Speaker 1: them ponzis in many cases, or say, you know, the 538 00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:56,760 Speaker 1: twentie version of a coin that has a puppy and 539 00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:59,560 Speaker 1: Elon Musk's name, do you ever like worry about like 540 00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:02,920 Speaker 1: a sort of hot money, or maybe better term that 541 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:05,520 Speaker 1: I think about it, like cynical money, which is like 542 00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:08,800 Speaker 1: projects that are clearly I don't know, do not seem 543 00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:10,919 Speaker 1: to be built with some sort of longer vision other 544 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:13,560 Speaker 1: than like capitalizing and trying to make money right now. 545 00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:16,480 Speaker 1: Do you worry that that has corrosive effects on the 546 00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:18,480 Speaker 1: space or is that just like or do you not 547 00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:20,520 Speaker 1: see it that way? And that's just like some people 548 00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:23,160 Speaker 1: are having fun and throwing things against the wall and 549 00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:26,200 Speaker 1: there's no reason to view it cynically. Yeah, it's a 550 00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:30,160 Speaker 1: great question. I mean, on one level, it just is 551 00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:34,520 Speaker 1: it's it's neither good or bad. It's it's all part 552 00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:38,120 Speaker 1: of a whole. And I think, you know, would it 553 00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:44,680 Speaker 1: be better if more labor and capital and attention was 554 00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:52,440 Speaker 1: focused on really great, long term innovative projects. I think yes. 555 00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:56,960 Speaker 1: And then sort of any market that attracts, any market 556 00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:00,360 Speaker 1: that starts to do well and attracts other participants, I 557 00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:04,239 Speaker 1: think ends up with these sorts of you know, speculative dynamics, 558 00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:07,960 Speaker 1: and I think there's somewhat inseparable and so you know, 559 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:10,560 Speaker 1: it's hard to to sort of critique one part of 560 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:14,439 Speaker 1: it without thinking about the broader hole. I do think 561 00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:18,640 Speaker 1: we'll see cyclical effects over time as a result, because 562 00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:21,359 Speaker 1: to your point, and you know, I love that you're 563 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:24,960 Speaker 1: following the twentie ome fork, but you know, eventually people 564 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:27,960 Speaker 1: probably tire of the ome forks, and so there's sort 565 00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:31,719 Speaker 1: of attention and interest that can exhaust. But you know, ultimately, 566 00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:35,320 Speaker 1: I think Crypto as a whole feels very robust relative 567 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:38,120 Speaker 1: to you to three years ago. There's a guy in 568 00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:41,040 Speaker 1: my d MS every week who I really like personally. 569 00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:43,080 Speaker 1: Actually I don't know who he is. I don't even 570 00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:44,480 Speaker 1: know if it's a guy. And he's like, what are 571 00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:46,040 Speaker 1: you doing an OME episode? What are you doing an 572 00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:48,640 Speaker 1: episode of? Like, we're not doing an OLM episode. We're 573 00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:52,680 Speaker 1: not doing an episode on something that you blatantly joke 574 00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:55,920 Speaker 1: of as a Ponzi. But anyway, sorry, keep going anyway. 575 00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:57,520 Speaker 1: I just get a kick out of that hole. So 576 00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:00,640 Speaker 1: that's actually the fascinating because I think the you know, 577 00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:07,200 Speaker 1: to your point, there's sort of like a decentralized signal filter, right, 578 00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:09,439 Speaker 1: so you know, Bloomberg is not going to cover home, 579 00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:12,040 Speaker 1: and Bloomberg is going to focus on you know, more 580 00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:15,360 Speaker 1: substantive long term projects, and I think that's generally speaking 581 00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:18,880 Speaker 1: a decent place to go, although maybe I'm like, you know, 582 00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:21,600 Speaker 1: that's gonna really come back to haunt me. And when 583 00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:24,680 Speaker 1: Home is truly the sort of like the unbacked stable 584 00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:26,880 Speaker 1: coin of the Internet, I'll feel like that person who 585 00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:31,640 Speaker 1: dismissed all the Bitcoin pitches in my inbox from that's right, 586 00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:36,839 Speaker 1: you should do an Home episode as insurance then, just 587 00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:38,880 Speaker 1: as ensure. Do you think case it's the currency of 588 00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:41,160 Speaker 1: the future, right? I guess this is kind of a 589 00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:45,160 Speaker 1: related question, but just in terms of evaluating use cases 590 00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:49,319 Speaker 1: for different um coins or technologies, like so much of 591 00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:53,040 Speaker 1: it right now depends on their ability to scale up 592 00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:55,560 Speaker 1: um and I know this is something that you've been 593 00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:59,680 Speaker 1: watching quite closely when it comes to ethereum, but like, 594 00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:03,920 Speaker 1: how how are those efforts going in your view, and 595 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:07,840 Speaker 1: what are the challenges of scaling up or making the 596 00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:10,560 Speaker 1: networks more efficient for a lot of those coins, Because 597 00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:12,840 Speaker 1: this is going to be the thing that you know 598 00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:17,160 Speaker 1: drives defy expansion, So if the underlying tech isn't working 599 00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:21,799 Speaker 1: that smooth, that would seem to be a problem. I 600 00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:24,640 Speaker 1: think it maybe it's worth elucidating sort of why there 601 00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:30,640 Speaker 1: is this core issue, which is part of what blockchains 602 00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:36,440 Speaker 1: do is to ensure that there's sort of this immutable 603 00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:41,400 Speaker 1: record of what happened. You know, transactions are basically repeated 604 00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:44,920 Speaker 1: on a lot of different machines in a consensus process, 605 00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:48,359 Speaker 1: and that's inherently going to be more costly and less 606 00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:52,719 Speaker 1: efficient than sort of traditional Internet services. And I think 607 00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:56,200 Speaker 1: when you think about that process, there's a couple of 608 00:37:56,200 --> 00:38:00,359 Speaker 1: different ways of solving it. One way is to sort 609 00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:05,520 Speaker 1: of batch transactions together and either make proofs about them 610 00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:08,880 Speaker 1: or you know, optimistically accept them and accept fraud proofs 611 00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:13,640 Speaker 1: about them. And that's a type of scaling solution that's 612 00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:18,520 Speaker 1: emerging around ethereum called roll ups. Another approach is to 613 00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:21,879 Speaker 1: think about the hardware that you're using to run these 614 00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:25,400 Speaker 1: and be able to run them in larger and better hardware. 615 00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:29,000 Speaker 1: I would say right now we're at a phase in 616 00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:33,120 Speaker 1: the ecosystem where basically every potential solution is being explored, 617 00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:38,160 Speaker 1: and I think that's great for the ecosystem overall, and 618 00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:40,160 Speaker 1: relative to two or three years ago, we're a lot 619 00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:44,720 Speaker 1: further along. There's optimistic roll ups and zero knowledge roll ups, 620 00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:50,120 Speaker 1: both in production around Ethereum. There's other layer, ones like Salana, 621 00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:55,240 Speaker 1: which are more scalable, and so we're sort of seeing 622 00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:58,240 Speaker 1: this play out in real time, and I would guess 623 00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:01,920 Speaker 1: another couple of years from now, scaling will still be 624 00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:05,000 Speaker 1: an issue, but it will no longer feel as existential 625 00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:08,320 Speaker 1: or uncertain. The sort of fog of war will have lifted, 626 00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:10,759 Speaker 1: and we'll have much more clarity on sort of the 627 00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:14,359 Speaker 1: specific paths and directions that are going to work. So 628 00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:16,080 Speaker 1: I want to ask you a question about this sort 629 00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:18,759 Speaker 1: of you know, we've been talking about crypto, the term 630 00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:22,920 Speaker 1: web three point oh has sort of become synonymous, and 631 00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:25,520 Speaker 1: I think, like you know, people like here web three 632 00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:28,520 Speaker 1: point oh, there's this debate and this was This is 633 00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:32,240 Speaker 1: actually another thing that got discussed recently on crypto Twitter recently, 634 00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:35,640 Speaker 1: which is will the services that we've come to associate with, 635 00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:38,040 Speaker 1: like the last iteration of the web web two point oh, 636 00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:40,719 Speaker 1: will they all become sort of like on blockchain? And 637 00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:43,320 Speaker 1: so the classic examples like will there be an uber 638 00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:45,840 Speaker 1: on the blockchain where instead of an uber inc, like 639 00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:48,239 Speaker 1: a company that there is like some sort of like 640 00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:52,759 Speaker 1: decentralized protocol that routed drivers and they collected token and 641 00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:56,080 Speaker 1: it's sort of and the every passenger and driver get 642 00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:58,920 Speaker 1: some sort of reputation score. We no longer need like 643 00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:01,160 Speaker 1: a sort of like corporate o man or something like that, 644 00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:04,279 Speaker 1: or Twitter or could could that entirely exist on a 645 00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:07,480 Speaker 1: blockchain without an LLC as we know it? And I'm curious, 646 00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:10,239 Speaker 1: you know, you've kind of been a little bit reluctant 647 00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:14,279 Speaker 1: to sort of elucidate specifically the investment idea. But what 648 00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:16,000 Speaker 1: do you think about that? Like, are all these sort 649 00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:19,359 Speaker 1: of Web two point oh things in your view going 650 00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:24,000 Speaker 1: to get recreated on chain or do you think all 651 00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:26,279 Speaker 1: those are sort of more or less exist in their 652 00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:28,360 Speaker 1: current form, And what happens on web three point I 653 00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:31,919 Speaker 1: would just be something novel that we can't really anticipate yet. 654 00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:37,120 Speaker 1: I think there's sort of two thoughts on this. The 655 00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:42,360 Speaker 1: first is that we tend to think that it's much 656 00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:46,040 Speaker 1: easier for the blockchain to kind of reason about things 657 00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:49,680 Speaker 1: that are on the blockchain or at least digital and 658 00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:53,960 Speaker 1: sort of accessible via oracle or some other mechanism. And 659 00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:56,840 Speaker 1: so the example of Uber on the blockchain, you know, 660 00:40:56,920 --> 00:41:00,360 Speaker 1: I would guess that that's really far off if it 661 00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:04,560 Speaker 1: ever happens. In contrast, I think gaming is a great 662 00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:08,680 Speaker 1: example where you know, most games aren't fully on chain, 663 00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:12,920 Speaker 1: but the idea of putting game items or gain currency 664 00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:16,320 Speaker 1: on chain is a very natural one, and we're likely 665 00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:19,080 Speaker 1: to see that happen much sooner. So that would be 666 00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:22,360 Speaker 1: one general principle we think about is sort of how 667 00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:27,920 Speaker 1: blockchain or crypto native is the application or how digitally 668 00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:30,640 Speaker 1: native is it. I think the second thing we think 669 00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:35,680 Speaker 1: about is it's always easy to think in analogies like 670 00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:37,960 Speaker 1: Facebook on the block chain, Uber on the blockchain. I 671 00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:42,040 Speaker 1: think we tend to have the view that the most 672 00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:47,480 Speaker 1: compelling applications will be kind of uniquely enabled by the 673 00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:50,880 Speaker 1: new technology. You wouldn't have been able to build it 674 00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:54,799 Speaker 1: without it, and so you know the example, but the 675 00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:57,600 Speaker 1: Internet might be something like you could put the New 676 00:41:57,680 --> 00:42:02,279 Speaker 1: York Times or Bloomberg on line, but you couldn't have 677 00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:05,080 Speaker 1: done Wikipedia before the Internet, and I think that was 678 00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:10,040 Speaker 1: you know, ultimately much more interesting, although not a huge business. 679 00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:13,560 Speaker 1: In the crypto world, I think there's sort of this 680 00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:16,839 Speaker 1: example of unit swap, of the idea of like this 681 00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:20,720 Speaker 1: on chain always available sort of permission this market maker 682 00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:24,840 Speaker 1: was not possible before and now it's it's suddenly possible. 683 00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:27,879 Speaker 1: Because sort of ethereum is is kind of live all 684 00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:31,040 Speaker 1: the time, and so that's what we're really looking for 685 00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:34,560 Speaker 1: at Paradigm is sort of these uniquely enabled applications that 686 00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:38,600 Speaker 1: wouldn't have been possible before. Can you give us an example, 687 00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:44,400 Speaker 1: like a really concrete example of something that's exciting you 688 00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:47,879 Speaker 1: in the space right now, Like, what is it that 689 00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:53,560 Speaker 1: that you're most like optimistic about or enthusiastic about. I 690 00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:57,640 Speaker 1: think the the idea of and I've already sort of 691 00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:04,280 Speaker 1: already mentioned it, but the idea of digital games adopting blockchains. 692 00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:09,360 Speaker 1: I think it's just a really compelling area, both because 693 00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:13,640 Speaker 1: this is a behavior that's already sort of decades old, 694 00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:18,440 Speaker 1: the idea of placing value and digital items potentially trading them, 695 00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:22,600 Speaker 1: and it's a really natural fit for what you know, 696 00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:27,360 Speaker 1: crypto and blockchain enables, which is true digital property rights. 697 00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:32,160 Speaker 1: And so you know, imagine the person who's maybe playing 698 00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:35,040 Speaker 1: World of Warcraft for ten hours a day and really 699 00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:41,040 Speaker 1: investing time, energy, money into their digital life effectively in 700 00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:45,440 Speaker 1: this game, and yet most of the value is purely 701 00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:50,319 Speaker 1: subject to the platform. One analogy we think about is, 702 00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:53,560 Speaker 1: you know a lot of these digital worlds, whether it's games, 703 00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:58,960 Speaker 1: or you know, Facebook's metaverse or your digital cryptosystems. You're 704 00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:03,160 Speaker 1: sort of moving to a new country in a lot 705 00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:07,040 Speaker 1: of ways and sort of adopting the rules of this 706 00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:09,719 Speaker 1: new country. And it turns out that today most of 707 00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:15,960 Speaker 1: those digital systems are you know, effectively autocratic in contrast 708 00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:18,480 Speaker 1: to you know, what we think of as good governance 709 00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:22,759 Speaker 1: today more broadly, So I think that's a tremendous intersection. 710 00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:27,920 Speaker 1: And then just very practically, we're seeing the gaming industry 711 00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:34,919 Speaker 1: really adopt this seriously. All the major large studios, small studios, 712 00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:39,600 Speaker 1: gaming entrepreneurs from past waves are really sort of rushing 713 00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:43,640 Speaker 1: head first because Crypto has all all of a sudden, 714 00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:47,440 Speaker 1: cracked open, this you know, creative canvas that I think 715 00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:51,160 Speaker 1: people are really excited to explore. So I just have 716 00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:54,120 Speaker 1: one last question, and it's sort of pragmatic, but you know, 717 00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:56,840 Speaker 1: two and a half billion dollar raised for this new fund, 718 00:44:57,360 --> 00:44:59,560 Speaker 1: what is do you have like a sort of estimated 719 00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:03,720 Speaker 1: internal guesses to the length of time that you expect 720 00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:07,680 Speaker 1: to deploy that over and sort of the cycle of 721 00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:09,239 Speaker 1: it's so you know, we sort of, you know, we 722 00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:11,800 Speaker 1: joked at the beginning three weeks or three months in crypto, 723 00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:14,480 Speaker 1: it feels like years. What is the cycle of which 724 00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:17,960 Speaker 1: you expect to deploy two and a half billion dollars? 725 00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:20,880 Speaker 1: And uh, you know how many different projects give some 726 00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:23,560 Speaker 1: guests of how far that will how far that will go? 727 00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:26,879 Speaker 1: Like what's your what's your goal here? So the top 728 00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:31,840 Speaker 1: level answers that were very focus bottoms up and you know, 729 00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:34,640 Speaker 1: not not trying to adadge the question, but just very 730 00:45:34,719 --> 00:45:39,279 Speaker 1: genuinely we're always just trying to find interesting people and 731 00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:42,959 Speaker 1: projects and back the ones that we get very excited about. 732 00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:45,560 Speaker 1: And that could be at the really early stage with 733 00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:47,799 Speaker 1: small checks, it could be at the growth stage with 734 00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:52,440 Speaker 1: larger checks. I would guess that it's not dissimilar to 735 00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:57,400 Speaker 1: any other venture capital fund, which might you know, have 736 00:45:57,480 --> 00:46:02,279 Speaker 1: a deployment period of a couple of years. Well, Matt, 737 00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:04,840 Speaker 1: it was a it was a real pleasure to have 738 00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:08,120 Speaker 1: you on odd lots. Really appreciate it, really fascinating conversation 739 00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:11,400 Speaker 1: and looking forward to uh seeing what you do. Cool. 740 00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:14,160 Speaker 1: Thanks for the time, Yeah, take care of Matt. Thanks 741 00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:29,960 Speaker 1: so much, Matt. Truth so trazy. I found that conversation 742 00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:32,840 Speaker 1: to be really interesting, and I think the thing that 743 00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:35,840 Speaker 1: struck me the most, I mean, at the end, what 744 00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:37,719 Speaker 1: he said to you about you know, his interest in 745 00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:41,400 Speaker 1: blockchain gaming is clearly but I think like one of 746 00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:43,160 Speaker 1: the things that struck me most was sort of like 747 00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:46,840 Speaker 1: how open ended they seem to be, or mad seems 748 00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:48,600 Speaker 1: to be about where this might go, which is like, 749 00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:51,400 Speaker 1: we don't really know, it might look totally different. No 750 00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:55,040 Speaker 1: one could have anticipated Wikipedia prior to the Internet, and 751 00:46:55,120 --> 00:46:57,279 Speaker 1: just the sort of idea of let's just see what 752 00:46:57,320 --> 00:47:01,239 Speaker 1: the talented people are building. Yeah, I think the thing 753 00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:04,120 Speaker 1: that stood out to me um was that bit towards 754 00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:06,080 Speaker 1: the end of the conversation where he was talking about 755 00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:08,880 Speaker 1: what you put all this stuff on the chain and 756 00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:12,400 Speaker 1: you're building Web three point oh or Web three or whatever. 757 00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:15,360 Speaker 1: But what you're essentially doing is sort of move moving 758 00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:20,880 Speaker 1: from those vertical models of trust where everything you know, 759 00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:25,840 Speaker 1: was controlled by a single entity, like I mean, Facebook's 760 00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:28,320 Speaker 1: about example, because it's going to be starting the metaverse, 761 00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:31,640 Speaker 1: but like everything is controlled by Facebook, the social network, 762 00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:36,680 Speaker 1: and now you're moving to sort of more horizontal structure 763 00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:40,920 Speaker 1: of trust that's enabled by the protocols that might be 764 00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:45,920 Speaker 1: embedded in a particular crypto project like Needless to Stay 765 00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:48,600 Speaker 1: and probably I think both of us, you know, still 766 00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:51,640 Speaker 1: have some I don't know crypto. Neither of us are 767 00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:54,880 Speaker 1: like totally drinking the kool aid crypto converts, And I 768 00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:57,200 Speaker 1: kind of see myself as somewhere in the middle these days. 769 00:47:57,320 --> 00:47:59,400 Speaker 1: But I think a lot of the problem that people 770 00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:01,839 Speaker 1: have what they is they sort of like, oh, like 771 00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:05,239 Speaker 1: Uber already works fine, um as it is, it doesn't 772 00:48:05,239 --> 00:48:07,359 Speaker 1: need to be on the blockchain, or Facebook already works fine, 773 00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:10,360 Speaker 1: or Twitter works fine, or banking works fine, or Robin 774 00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:14,120 Speaker 1: hood works fine. And it kind of feels like, as 775 00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:16,920 Speaker 1: he put it, or the way he's thinking about it, 776 00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:21,239 Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, maybe it's not about solving some obvious 777 00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:24,440 Speaker 1: problem that already exists, and maybe that's the wrong question 778 00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:28,839 Speaker 1: as opposed to what organically emerges out of these new 779 00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:33,520 Speaker 1: governance structures or property right structures that we sort of 780 00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:35,680 Speaker 1: came conceive of. And so it's like the yeah, but 781 00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:39,520 Speaker 1: what is crypto four question? Maybe in a sense, maybe 782 00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:43,640 Speaker 1: it's the wrong question to be asking at some level. Yeah, 783 00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:46,080 Speaker 1: although I kind of feel like, with the amount of 784 00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:48,879 Speaker 1: money that is pouring into the space, you would want 785 00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:52,080 Speaker 1: you would want to be asking that question. And again, 786 00:48:52,120 --> 00:48:54,040 Speaker 1: like part of me is very interested to see what 787 00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:56,279 Speaker 1: comes out of all of this. But the other part 788 00:48:56,320 --> 00:48:59,600 Speaker 1: of me is thinking, why can't all this money go 789 00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:03,880 Speaker 1: into I don't know, some sort of environmental technology or 790 00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:08,719 Speaker 1: something like that, rather than who's making like the most 791 00:49:08,719 --> 00:49:11,399 Speaker 1: efficient way to move n f T s from one 792 00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:15,440 Speaker 1: owner to the other. But who knows, like maybe maybe 793 00:49:15,640 --> 00:49:19,000 Speaker 1: the metaverse or web three or whatever is going to 794 00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:23,200 Speaker 1: be absolutely amazing and you know we'll take it all back. Yeah. 795 00:49:23,239 --> 00:49:25,279 Speaker 1: Well no, I mean I remember, like you sort of 796 00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:27,600 Speaker 1: made fun of me, like, you know, when so we 797 00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:30,520 Speaker 1: did some of our defy me make fun of you? 798 00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:33,520 Speaker 1: Yeah right, that would never happened when we did some 799 00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:37,719 Speaker 1: of our like first Defy like episodes, like early in one, 800 00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:39,759 Speaker 1: because I was like, yeah, well, what is the thing 801 00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:44,040 Speaker 1: that's like getting funded? It's great to invent invent finance, 802 00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:47,080 Speaker 1: but like finance has a reason. It's like to fund 803 00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:51,000 Speaker 1: whaling expeditions and to distribute the risk of that, and 804 00:49:51,040 --> 00:49:52,840 Speaker 1: so it's like, yeah, well what other things? And I 805 00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:55,640 Speaker 1: guess like that is still where I stand. On some level, 806 00:49:57,280 --> 00:50:00,840 Speaker 1: defy or crypto finance will seems like it has to 807 00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:04,920 Speaker 1: like finance something of some use rather than just and 808 00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:06,879 Speaker 1: I saw and also I wonder, like, you know, looking 809 00:50:06,880 --> 00:50:10,239 Speaker 1: at this in December or November. At this point was 810 00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:12,600 Speaker 1: like all of these own forks, many of which like 811 00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:16,480 Speaker 1: are like you know, they like called themselves Ponzi schemes. 812 00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:18,680 Speaker 1: It's like, is this really going in the other direction 813 00:50:18,719 --> 00:50:21,800 Speaker 1: where it's like these are just blatant the games. First 814 00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:23,360 Speaker 1: of all, I can tell already that we are going 815 00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:26,080 Speaker 1: to end up doing an episode on on and then secondly, 816 00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:28,759 Speaker 1: I love that all our de fi episodes always come 817 00:50:28,760 --> 00:50:32,560 Speaker 1: back to the whaling industry. That's the whole point of finance. 818 00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:36,560 Speaker 1: Distribute risk from something that has, you know, very unpredictable return. 819 00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:41,440 Speaker 1: All right, shall we leave it there, Let's leave it there. Okay, 820 00:50:41,640 --> 00:50:44,280 Speaker 1: this has been another episode of the All Thoughts Podcast. 821 00:50:44,320 --> 00:50:46,960 Speaker 1: I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me on Twitter at 822 00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:49,960 Speaker 1: Tracy Alloway and I'm Joey Isn't All. You can follow 823 00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:53,240 Speaker 1: me on Twitter at the Stalwart. Follow our guests on Twitter. 824 00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:57,000 Speaker 1: Matt Wong, He's Matt Long. Follow our producer Laura Carlson, 825 00:50:57,120 --> 00:51:00,600 Speaker 1: She's at Laura M. Carlson. Follow the Bloomberg Head podcast 826 00:51:00,640 --> 00:51:04,279 Speaker 1: Francesco Levi at Francesca Today, and check out all of 827 00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:07,920 Speaker 1: our podcast at Bloomberg under the handle at podcasts thanks 828 00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:08,400 Speaker 1: for listening,