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Speaker 1: Take a deep breath in through your nose.

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Speaker 2: Holds it.

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Speaker 1: Now, release slowly again deep in, helle hold release, repeating

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Speaker 1: internally to yourself as you connect to my voice. I

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Speaker 1: am deeply well. I am deeply well. I am deeply wow.

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Speaker 1: I'm Debbie Brown and this is the Deeply Well Podcast.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Deeply Well, a soft place to land on

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Speaker 1: your journey. A podcast for those that are curious, creative,

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Speaker 1: and ready to expand in higher consciousness and self care.

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Speaker 1: This is where we heal, this is where we transcend.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to Deeply Well. This podcast we are deeply

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Speaker 1: exploring pathways to inner peace, connection and healing. And I

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Speaker 1: am so excited. As always, I'm your host, Debbie Brown,

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Speaker 1: and today I am just absolutely honored to be joined

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Speaker 1: by a true force in the world of psychology, healing

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Speaker 1: and spiritual restoration. Today's guest is the renowned doctor Tama Bryant,

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Speaker 1: a New York Times best selling author, clinical psychologist, teacher

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Speaker 1: and minister. Doctor Tama Bryant, a New York Times best

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Speaker 1: selling author, clinical psychologist, teacher, and minister. Doctor Tama made

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Speaker 1: history in twenty twenty three as the youngest female president

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Speaker 1: of the American Psychological Association. She has now just released

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Speaker 1: her newest book, Matters of the Heart, Healing your relationship

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Speaker 1: with yourself and those you love, through Penguin Random House.

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Speaker 1: Matters of the Heart combines the wisdom of science, spirituality,

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Speaker 1: and real life experiences to help readers tend to their

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Speaker 1: emotional wellbeing and build meaningful connections. Doctor Tama provides evidence

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Speaker 1: based practices, essential relationship skills, and strategies to address common

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Speaker 1: relational struggles. She is on a mission to help individuals

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Speaker 1: reclaim their sense of self and well being in the

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Speaker 1: face of trauma and oppressive systems. She completed her doctorate

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Speaker 1: in clinical psychology at Duke University, followed by postdoctoral training

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Speaker 1: at Harvard Medical Center's Victims of Violence Program. Now a

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Speaker 1: tenured professor at Pepperdine University, she focuses her research and

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Speaker 1: clinical practice on interpersonal trauma and the societal impact of oppression.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the show. Thank you so much for being here,

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Speaker 1: doctor Tama.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. I am so

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Speaker 2: excited to be in this soft place to land with you.

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Speaker 1: Begin Yeah, oh my gosh. I mean, first and foremost,

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Speaker 1: I just want to reflect deep gratitude to you for

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Speaker 1: the work that you do. The way your work has

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Speaker 1: moved in the world, I think really came so far

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Speaker 1: ahead of what we are now maybe beginning to think

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Speaker 1: is commonplace casual understanding of how our pathts affect us,

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Speaker 1: and how childhood especially affect us, and how trauma affects us.

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Speaker 1: And I think for so many people, mental health and

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Speaker 1: faith has been such a disjointed body. Right, there's this

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Speaker 1: idea that trauma belongs over here. Faith and church and

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Speaker 1: God and ministry belong here, family belongs here, personal responsibility

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Speaker 1: belongs here, and everything. You know, there were all of

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Speaker 1: these pieces I think that people were really screaming for

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Speaker 1: help in and it. It isn't until recently that it's

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Speaker 1: really understood how holistic it all is, and how it

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Speaker 1: really is a true blend of everything all at once

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Speaker 1: and we have to approach it that way. But that

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Speaker 1: has been your call and your work. How did you

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Speaker 1: begin to really in all the processes, see those connections

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Speaker 1: and put all of those puzzle pieces together.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you for that. I would say it is

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Speaker 2: at the roots afrocentric. So in afrocentric psychology, afrocentric philosophy,

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Speaker 2: there is not a false dichotomy it's not like are

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Speaker 2: you spiritual or secular? Are you creative or intellectual? It's

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Speaker 2: all one. And so I grew up with that as

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Speaker 2: a foundation that it wasn't like are you going to

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Speaker 2: be focused in school or are you going to pray?

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Speaker 2: Like that question would never be asked. It was to

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Speaker 2: be the fullness of who you are. And so and

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Speaker 2: at the roots, psychology used to incorporate more at spirituality.

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Speaker 2: Psychology actually means study of the soul, and so the

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Speaker 2: founders of the field were often people of faith. But

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Speaker 2: then there was a detour as we try to prove

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Speaker 2: ourselves to be scientific. So in order to be worthy

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Speaker 2: of being a science, we had to discard all the

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Speaker 2: things we could not easily prove. And so there has

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Speaker 2: been a reclamation of return to not only reclaiming spirituality,

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Speaker 2: but also reclaiming the body. Yeah, I mean the body

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Speaker 2: so important.

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Speaker 1: And it's so interesting the way just to be alive

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Speaker 1: right now, I think that's a loaded statement because it

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Speaker 1: is interesting for many reasons, but especially I think in

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Speaker 1: it does feel like a time where we do if

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Speaker 1: you're awake and aware for it, get to come home

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Speaker 1: to yourself, yes, and understand that the human experience is

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Speaker 1: all of those facets. You know, whenever we've spoken to mind, body,

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Speaker 1: and soul. I think for so many years, it's still

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Speaker 1: not understood that is actually what your human experience is.

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Speaker 1: You are having the experience of your mind, of your body,

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Speaker 1: of your soul, and our work is to integrate.

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Speaker 2: That's right, because when we are seen and valued only

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Speaker 2: for our labor, then these systems benefit from the disconnection. Right,

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Speaker 2: I'm not a living soul if I am just your laborer. Right,

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Speaker 2: my heart doesn't matter, my body doesn't matter. And so

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Speaker 2: to resist that notion that the ways in which I

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Speaker 2: build up other institutions and systems is my worth and value,

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Speaker 2: which is often for women and people of color, that

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Speaker 2: has often been the narrative. And so to reject all

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Speaker 2: of that and say, when I'm just sitting here on

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Speaker 2: the couch, the two of us sitting here on the

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Speaker 2: couch are worthy. Yeah, we're our real sip and tea

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Speaker 2: and worthy. Yes, yes, yeah, that's the healing and the realization.

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Speaker 2: To come home to myself is to tell myself the truth,

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Speaker 2: and the truth is I am more than what I

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Speaker 2: do for others. I am a living soul.

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Speaker 1: That line you set it just hit me in such

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Speaker 1: a special place. You're telling the truth. Yeah, you're telling

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Speaker 1: the truth. I remember a huge, a huge moment in

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Speaker 1: my walk with God and the building of my faith

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Speaker 1: was I was in so many dark places at once,

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Speaker 1: and I remember, and I've always been very wellness focused

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Speaker 1: and very holistic and very much and endure someone with

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Speaker 1: quite a bit of resilience. But I remember this phrase

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Speaker 1: came in. I just kept saying, like, God, what like

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Speaker 1: what I've surrendered?

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Speaker 2: Like what is?

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Speaker 1: And what else do I need to know? And the

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Speaker 1: exact wordage that came through was I accept the truth

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Speaker 1: of my life. And it's like that it doesn't have

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Speaker 1: to have a definition. And I think when people think

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Speaker 1: of understanding their truth or who and what they are,

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Speaker 1: they think it also has to be quantified or they

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Speaker 1: have to know what that is, or it has to

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Speaker 1: even be words that fill that space. And it's like

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Speaker 1: that peace like right when you said it, It's like

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Speaker 1: truth is so much and it's not just the language

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Speaker 1: we have access to.

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Speaker 2: M One of my dear friends, Asia a Devo, is

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Speaker 2: a poet and she has a poem that says, who

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Speaker 2: lied right? Who lied to you? That told you a

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Speaker 2: false sense of yourself. And we have experience and people

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Speaker 2: that presented us with lies from very early and so

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Speaker 2: it is the discarding and shedding of those lies so

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Speaker 2: that I can know my worthiness.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, before we get into the book, I would just

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Speaker 1: love to ask a question to understand what makes such

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Speaker 1: a unique being such as yourself. So your work it's

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Speaker 1: deeply rooted in healing, in psychology and spirituality. What were

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Speaker 1: some of the moments in your life that really, as

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Speaker 1: you were in these different kind of facets of yourself,

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Speaker 1: really understood your call and understood to blend them.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think one it's what in some settings

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Speaker 2: can be seen as a weakness is actually your strength.

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Speaker 2: And so growing up I would be what was called

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Speaker 2: a sensitive child and right here we are, Here we are. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's like you know, I remember reading the story of

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Speaker 2: the Ugly Ducklan and I cried, Okay, so you feel

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Speaker 2: things so deeply and in certain settings like that's a problem.

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Speaker 2: But when you discover what you're here for, it's like, yes,

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Speaker 2: you needed to. You had to be made that way

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Speaker 2: right so that you could feel and be tender and

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Speaker 2: notice things people don't notice right and pay attention. So

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Speaker 2: I would say that sensitivity, just like at my heart

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Speaker 2: and nature has been really important in my shaping. And

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Speaker 2: then because my dad was a pastor, he would do

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Speaker 2: what they would call pastoral counseling, so instead of people

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Speaker 2: calling a therapist or a life coach, they would usually

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Speaker 2: speak to their minister. And so I say in my

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Speaker 2: prior book, Homecome, my first time working a crisis hotline

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Speaker 2: was as a kid because people would call the house

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Speaker 2: and they didn't care who answered the phone. They were

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Speaker 2: just you answer. They're crying and I'm like hello, So

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Speaker 2: that kind of nourishing, right. And my mother at some

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Speaker 2: when I was like in middle school, she went into

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Speaker 2: ministry as well, but focused on women's ministry, so you know,

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Speaker 2: for me later to become the president of the Society

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Speaker 2: for the Psychology of Women, as you know, I grew

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Speaker 2: up seeing her do the work right, so having that compassion.

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Speaker 2: And then I primarily grew up in Baltimore, which, while

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Speaker 2: it's beautiful culturally, also has a lot of community violence.

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Speaker 2: I had the wonderful experience of in high school moving

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Speaker 2: to Liberia, West Africa with my family, and the first

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Speaker 2: year and a half was amazing because I was celebrated, right,

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Speaker 2: and because everyone in the position of authority look like me,

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Speaker 2: So it really expands your idea of what you can be. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 2: the second year, toward the end of the second year,

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Speaker 2: there was a civil war. So you know, me dedicating

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Speaker 2: my life to trauma recovery, you know, is what I

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Speaker 2: have seen and to know that it's possible, that it's

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Speaker 2: devastating and it doesn't have to be the end of

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Speaker 2: our story. Wow.

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Speaker 1: In those two places, I'm so curious, were there any

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Speaker 1: differences in the ways that you saw people process trauma

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Speaker 1: and pain.

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Speaker 2: What I noticed in the community in Baltimore was more

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Speaker 2: suppression and that the rule is to keep it moving.

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Speaker 2: So there's a lot of you know, performing well.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: So when people say how are you, I'm good, good, right.

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Speaker 2: Or in the church community, I'm blessed, I'm better than

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Speaker 2: I do it, blessed and highly favor So we you know,

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Speaker 2: affirm ourselves even when we're struggling on the inside. So

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Speaker 2: there is not a lot of permission or space to

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Speaker 2: be broken hearted. Yeah, and that it is more acceptable

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Speaker 2: to be harsh than to be shattered. And so you know,

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Speaker 2: it's a lot of warriors.

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Speaker 1: Oh wait, a minute, let's sit there, because that landed,

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Speaker 1: that landed in somebody. And we on this show we

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Speaker 1: explore trauma a lot and self healing alive. And that's

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Speaker 1: the piece, right that I think is really confusing. And

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Speaker 1: I can only speak to the experiences that I have

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Speaker 1: really studied this in. But within black families, Yes, the

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Speaker 1: harshness that can come from your family, from your parents,

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Speaker 1: this idea of you know, well, the world ain't easy.

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Speaker 2: So got to prepare you. So that's the idea is

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Speaker 2: that I'm toughening you up so the world doesn't devour you.

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Speaker 2: So it comes for some people from a place of love,

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Speaker 2: from good intention, but can destroy people's spirits if you're

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Speaker 2: a more soft person or amplify and celebrate the hardness,

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Speaker 2: and then there is not room for our humanity, right

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Speaker 2: because I got to be a warrior at eight, right,

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Speaker 2: And so there is, yeah, a pressure in order to

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Speaker 2: survive is like don't be soft.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And one of the things that you just said,

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Speaker 1: where you know it's like this harshness. You know, I

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Speaker 1: think the people with the harshness, and we too on

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Speaker 1: the receiving end, believe it comes from love, but it

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Speaker 1: comes from a lack of practice of love. You know,

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Speaker 1: it comes from people that haven't even had the chants

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Speaker 1: to practice love for themselves, so they don't understand how

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Speaker 1: to live it as a verb. And yeah, wow.

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Speaker 2: And I want to acknowledge historically there wasn't space for that.

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Speaker 2: It's like there wasn't space. What people say, like I

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Speaker 2: would be depressed, but I don't have time right there,

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Speaker 2: So it is to take up space that had been

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Speaker 2: generationally denied. Right, So people don't know how to lead

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Speaker 2: you to what they could never do. And so then

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Speaker 2: we are carrying people call it ancestral wounds or intergenerational wounds.

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Speaker 2: But the gift is that we can shift it right

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Speaker 2: and by our example show that there's another way. So

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Speaker 2: while we honor, what I like to say is, you know,

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Speaker 2: the ways you survived are not always the ways you

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Speaker 2: want to live. So it's like, that's how you made

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Speaker 2: it out of there. My mom was one of ten

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Speaker 2: in the projects of New York, so she had to

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Speaker 2: know how to fight right, and and so we honor

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Speaker 2: that that's how you made it through that season. But

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Speaker 2: then there are those of us who are not in

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Speaker 2: crisis mode but still have not learned how to take

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Speaker 2: off our armor.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, Now when you witnessed in Liberia the processing

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Speaker 1: maybe of intergenerational trauma or of civil war trauma, are

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Speaker 1: there any differences culturally to how people process in that

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Speaker 1: area in other areas. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: The two things that come to mind are and we

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Speaker 2: have a taste of the first one. We have a

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Speaker 2: taste of both of them. It just had to get

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Speaker 2: diluted and shifted in our transition. But in Liberia they

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Speaker 2: grieve and this is what we see with you would

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Speaker 2: see like at some funerals and like a black church

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Speaker 2: or people would be like oh right, because there's not

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Speaker 2: this suppression that you see like at the opera of

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Speaker 2: having to like contain and censor. It is like a

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Speaker 2: full body release and it is evidence of love. Like

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Speaker 2: if you don't like lay in the floor, you didn't

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Speaker 2: love them, right, So there is a call and an

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Speaker 2: expectation to freely feel your feelings. Right. And then the

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Speaker 2: other piece that comes to mind is the truth telling

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Speaker 2: and not sugarcoating. So like here, especially as a therapist,

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Speaker 2: if we were going to have a support group through

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Speaker 2: people for people who went through a hard time, we

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Speaker 2: might say like women with Wings support group, right, you know,

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Speaker 2: we don't call it something very flowery, and they literally

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Speaker 2: the aftermath of the war had a group called Women

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Speaker 2: with Rape Babies. Oh, I guess the name of the group, right.

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Speaker 1: Oh.

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Speaker 2: So it's like, we're gonna call it what it is.

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Speaker 2: And I'm like, and people are gonna come, well, how

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Speaker 2: else will they know that this is for them?

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Speaker 1: Oh?

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Speaker 2: My god, Oh my god, yeah, my god. So there

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Speaker 2: there's truth. There's truth.

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Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah, that I mean, my god. The power in

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Speaker 1: that truth, like the power in calling a thing a thing, yes,

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Speaker 1: you know, like the power in being clear and saying

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Speaker 1: what happened to you people, being clear that that's what

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Speaker 1: happened to you.

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Speaker 2: That if not my shame or my secret. It's like

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Speaker 2: this is me and this is the baby and we're

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Speaker 2: all here together.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Mmm wow.

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Speaker 1: That is something just kind of in the work that

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Speaker 1: I do has actually been coming up now more than ever,

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Speaker 1: Like when I'm guiding retreats or when we're doing you know,

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Speaker 1: some trauma and form facilitation. Those are some of the

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Speaker 1: stories that have been coming up so much more. I

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Speaker 1: don't necessarily want to stay here, but I'm just feeling

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Speaker 1: so led to like be in the seat of this

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Speaker 1: for a second. You know, when it comes to things

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Speaker 1: like that that feel so garish, right, that feels so

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Speaker 1: in the underbelly of wellness, because we have wellness in

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Speaker 1: a lot of tears right now, right, And wellness quote

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Speaker 1: unquote as an industry is this nearly five trillion dollar industry.

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Speaker 1: The majority of that industry is centered in fitness, like

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Speaker 1: that's being under the umbrella of wellness. But people are

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Speaker 1: thinking that wellness and mental health and trauma are all

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Speaker 1: kind of these interchangeable words, and they are all companion words,

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Speaker 1: but they're not replacing each other. And so a lot

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Speaker 1: of the ways that wellness and mental health is spoken

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Speaker 1: to it in this day and age, it's really from

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Speaker 1: the lens of anxiety, and it's really from the lens

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Speaker 1: of kind of depression, but more so the daily hardship

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Speaker 1: depressions of the world or of some you know, charged

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Speaker 1: and unfair experiences and adverse experiences. But there is hundreds

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Speaker 1: of millions of people that don't necessarily know where they

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Speaker 1: fit in this conversation because when they're coming into these

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Speaker 1: spaces and people are sharing about what is absolutely important

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Speaker 1: and impactful in their lives. But then you do have

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Speaker 1: a percentage of the population that feels a little more

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Speaker 1: impossible to them to connect to this world. Right, So,

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Speaker 1: just for anybody listening right now that resonated with that

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Speaker 1: experience or an experience that is a lot harder to

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Speaker 1: stay out loud in front of a group or to

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Speaker 1: find pride in, how does one begin to approach that

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Speaker 1: truth in their life?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say to first whisper it to yourself? Right,

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Speaker 2: The first person I confess it to is me, you know.

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Speaker 2: So one of the invitations that I invite people to

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Speaker 2: is can you say I miss me? I miss me,

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Speaker 2: and that acknowledges that who I have had to be.

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Speaker 2: There are some parts of me that are missing, that

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Speaker 2: got discarded along the way, that got hidden along the way,

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Speaker 2: that got hurt along the way. And so in order

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Speaker 2: to heal, I have to first be able to see

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Speaker 2: the distinction between myself and my wound. And sometimes we

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Speaker 2: are identifying with the wound, like, oh, that's just how

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Speaker 2: I am. No, that's how you became. Right. So I

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Speaker 2: miss me who could sleep well at night. I miss

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Speaker 2: me who felt more confident. I miss me that didn't

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Speaker 2: have this other stuff attached to my intimacy. I miss me,

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Speaker 2: and so we can whether we journal that or speak

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Speaker 2: that out loud. A truth confessed to the self is

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Speaker 2: already a powerful truth. It's already instead of like, I'm good,

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Speaker 2: I'm good. It didn't bother me, I don't think about it.

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Speaker 2: I'm fine, and it's no I miss me and I

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Speaker 2: had to become this other version of myself and there

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Speaker 2: are some parts of me I want to get back.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, and then picking friends that cultivate truth telling, right,

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Speaker 2: It's like, because if I have to perform with you,

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Speaker 2: like you're not really my friend, you know, and that

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Speaker 2: may be something you're doing or the story I have

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Speaker 2: told myself, but a part of my healing is you know,

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Speaker 2: even if I don't like get up and on social

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Speaker 2: media and tell the whole story, is there anyone you

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Speaker 2: tell it to? Right? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Deeply? Well, you know the books that you've released before

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Speaker 1: this one that we're gonna step into. I mean, just

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Speaker 1: you've been doing this work for so long, for so long,

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Speaker 1: and I thank you, and I just really want to

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Speaker 1: keep saying that. And I really thank you because doing

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Speaker 1: work like this before most people even understood any of

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Speaker 1: the connections, right, Like, it's a heavy work. It is

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Speaker 1: such a heavy work to birth and so complex. So

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Speaker 1: some of your previous books like Thriving in the Week

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Speaker 1: of Trauma, a Multicultural Guide, you publish that in two

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Speaker 1: thousand and eight, Surviving Sexual Violence A Guide to Recovery

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Speaker 1: and Empowerment, publish that in twenty eleven. Tweets for the

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Speaker 1: Soul when Life Falls Apart, that beautiful book came out

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Speaker 1: in twenty fifteen, and now you have your latest book,

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Speaker 1: Healing your relationships with yourself and those you love Matters

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Speaker 1: of the Heart. What led you to this next pillar

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Speaker 1: in your life's.

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Speaker 2: Work, Yeah, thank you for that. Recognizing how our relationships

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Speaker 2: can nourish us or destroy us. Relationships, family, friendship, romantic,

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Speaker 2: they shape our lives. So when they are healthy relationships,

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Speaker 2: they're what we call protective factors. They can protect us

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Speaker 2: from the depths of depression, from anxiety, from addiction, dealing

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Speaker 2: with big life transitions. You know, if you're moving but

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Speaker 2: you have your friends, or you're going through a divorce

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Speaker 2: but you have good friends, that's a different experience. And

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Speaker 2: on the other side, unhealthy relationships, heartbreak, abandonment, those things

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Speaker 2: can devastate multiple areas of our lives, and they're often

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Speaker 2: not talked about in that way. So if you're successful,

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Speaker 2: then people just assume that, like everything is going to

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Speaker 2: be a success and don't really talk about how our

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Speaker 2: partnership can either elevate and nourish our lives or really

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Speaker 2: can take away everything.

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Speaker 1: Everything. Yeah, everything, m h.

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Speaker 2: It's true on every level. And so I dedicated the

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Speaker 2: book to my mom, who transitioned last year as a

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Speaker 2: result of breast cancer, and she loved deeply and fiercely.

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Speaker 2: And one of the moments that stood out to me

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Speaker 2: is I had a friend who had like a very

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Speaker 2: rough upbringing who got to meet my parents and she said, Tama,

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Speaker 2: I wonder who I would be if I had your parents,

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Speaker 2: And it really hit me right, it makes a big difference, huge.

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Speaker 2: So I know the ways in which heard love set

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Speaker 2: me up for success, and I also know the impact

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Speaker 2: that lack of love, lack of nourishing can have as well.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think you know, forgive me universe. I

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Speaker 1: don't know who to attribute this to, but you know

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Speaker 1: that's saying of like, it's not always what happens to you.

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Speaker 1: It's like sometimes what didn't happen to you, and like

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Speaker 1: experiences like that, And I think like, especially within the

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Speaker 1: kind of generation that is like between thirty and fifty

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Speaker 1: right now, that was a really specific moment in time

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Speaker 1: in the childhoods of those ages that I think, you know,

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Speaker 1: hopefully and a lot of social scientists are kind of

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Speaker 1: coming with more comprehensive studies of the effects. But you know,

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Speaker 1: being latchkey kids, being the generation that raise themselves more

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Speaker 1: than any other generation. It's like, I think that that

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Speaker 1: is even if you had big T trauma or not,

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Speaker 1: or just life's friction, that is a layer of grief.

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Speaker 1: A lot of people in these age demos are really

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Speaker 1: going through like you know, who, not that this moment

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Speaker 1: isn't perfect and divinely designed, but who could you have

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Speaker 1: been if you didn't have so much responsibility or didn't

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Speaker 1: have to do so many things by yourself, or you know,

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Speaker 1: didn't have your parents as the first generation with like

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Speaker 1: adults with AOL or the ones to be distracted and

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Speaker 1: really not you know, plopping you in front of the

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Speaker 1: TV or the chat rooms. And it's very real, like

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Speaker 1: there are so many things that were missed in your development,

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Speaker 1: you know that was part of your story, and so

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Speaker 1: much extra stress and trauma that lives inside it for

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Speaker 1: your body right now because of it, because of the

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Speaker 1: fast food of the time, because of it. It's every

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Speaker 1: generation definitely has their stuff in so many ways. But

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Speaker 1: that piece I think is really coming up for people

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Speaker 1: now more than ever. What didn't I get right?

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Speaker 2: Eve Ensler and an interview about the Vagina Monologues, says,

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Speaker 2: all of the energy women's been healing, Like if we

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Speaker 2: didn't have to heal from the abusive relationships, from the molestation,

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Speaker 2: what could we be creating, writing, building, launching right with

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Speaker 2: that same energy? Which is why in therapy I often

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Speaker 2: say it's not just about decreasing symptoms of distress, it

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Speaker 2: is about now, like what are you going to create

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Speaker 2: and be? Right? So it's not just post trauma. It

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Speaker 2: is now like my growth and my thriving and like

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Speaker 2: now I get to be myself right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And just a moment of congratulations to everybody

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Speaker 1: listening that is alive and has survived and is here

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Speaker 1: listening to this episode right now, and all of the

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Speaker 1: limitless potential of who you are and who you can be.

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Speaker 2: It is so important for us to pause and appreciate

435
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 2: ourselves because often we're so busy in push mode and

436
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:24,320
Speaker 2: striving mode that we don't get to say, even if

437
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:27,320
Speaker 2: I am not fully where I want to be, let

438
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:30,680
Speaker 2: me acknowledge I'm not where I was, right, And so

439
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:34,360
Speaker 2: to train my eyes to see my own growth.

440
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:45,480
Speaker 1: Oh, to train my eyes to see my own growth? Right? Oh? Yes, like, oh,

441
00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:47,320
Speaker 1: bear witness to yourself.

442
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:51,920
Speaker 2: Yes, in all the processes. Yes, to say like a

443
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,920
Speaker 2: year ago, I wouldn't have made this choice. I wouldn't

444
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:57,360
Speaker 2: have even noticed that, or I wouldn't have even known

445
00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:00,320
Speaker 2: that I could have permission to be that way, or

446
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:05,240
Speaker 2: to say that, yes, it's wonderful, and all the feels

447
00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:06,600
Speaker 2: when you're saying that, I'm just.

448
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:11,360
Speaker 1: Like, oh, yes, Lord, you know in this book the

449
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:14,000
Speaker 1: one of the subjects that you tackle that I think

450
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 1: is just so incredibly relevant to so many people, And

451
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:24,240
Speaker 1: so many people cannot necessarily find the trail back to

452
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:30,760
Speaker 1: what brought this behavior out, but issues of control, specifically

453
00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:35,040
Speaker 1: emotional unavailability. It feels like we are Maybe it's just

454
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 1: because we have language for it now, but my God,

455
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:41,400
Speaker 1: does this seem like its own epidemic emotional unavailability and

456
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:47,760
Speaker 1: how unreciprocated love impacts our well being? Yes? Why do

457
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:51,440
Speaker 1: so many of us struggle with those particular patterns that

458
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:57,040
Speaker 1: seems to be so so so pervasive, controlling unavailability, inability

459
00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:00,720
Speaker 1: to be truly intimate and connect and kind of finding

460
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:07,120
Speaker 1: oneself in dynamics of unreciprocated love or feeling of all

461
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 1: different kinds. Why is that? Why is that so prevalent now?

462
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:13,360
Speaker 1: And how do people approach it?

463
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think there has been a real devaluing a relationship.

464
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 2: So there is this focus on attaining and being driven

465
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:36,560
Speaker 2: and accumulating and being booked and busy and you know, yes, right,

466
00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 2: so when I am so focused in a targeted way,

467
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 2: I can neglect my own relationships and so then I'm

468
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 2: not available for that. Because another piece of it is

469
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:59,800
Speaker 2: being raised or mentored by people who were disappointed and hurt. Yeah,

470
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:04,000
Speaker 2: then they advise you, you know, don't get caught up,

471
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:08,759
Speaker 2: don't believe them, don't do that, don't do that, And

472
00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:13,359
Speaker 2: so then we fear it not to mention our own

473
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:19,759
Speaker 2: stories of heartbreak and disappointment. That can cause us to

474
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:25,680
Speaker 2: out of fear. And I want to say it's understandable

475
00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:30,759
Speaker 2: and important that we take pause after heartbreak. Right, you

476
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:33,919
Speaker 2: don't want to just jump into something else, But some

477
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:38,360
Speaker 2: people get stuck in the pause. So it's been years

478
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:41,640
Speaker 2: later and they're still like, oh no, thanks none for me.

479
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:44,879
Speaker 2: I don't want it. I'm not interested. And so then

480
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:47,359
Speaker 2: that heart never got to heal.

481
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:48,600
Speaker 1: Yeah.

482
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:56,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then the part about wanting people who don't

483
00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:59,719
Speaker 2: want us and holding on to that you know this

484
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:04,360
Speaker 2: phrase I like that people uses around bread crumbing, right. Yeah.

485
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:07,320
Speaker 2: So they give you just like a little bit oh like, oh,

486
00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:09,759
Speaker 2: you think they're gone, and then they text you like

487
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:14,719
Speaker 2: three weeks later or you know, and more, good morning sunshine.

488
00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:20,239
Speaker 2: It's a lord. And so that we can hold on

489
00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:24,680
Speaker 2: out of hope. And then also we often think about

490
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:29,120
Speaker 2: people as being insecure, but the opposite can happen. When

491
00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:33,759
Speaker 2: you're confident and successful, you can convince yourself I'm gonna

492
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:37,400
Speaker 2: win them over right, So it's not just that you

493
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:41,080
Speaker 2: feel like you're the worst. You're just like if I

494
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:43,760
Speaker 2: call them this, if I do this, if I dress

495
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 2: this way, if I am funny enough, if I you know,

496
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 2: then they're gonna see that I'm worth choosing. And so

497
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:57,840
Speaker 2: to really get to that place of grounding that we

498
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:02,400
Speaker 2: don't think about relationships as we think about a job promotion.

499
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:11,560
Speaker 1: Okay, hold on, wow, can we explore that a little

500
00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:16,239
Speaker 1: bit because I think that that is it's just I

501
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:22,439
Speaker 1: don't think everybody understands how much they perform yes, and

502
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:25,440
Speaker 1: how much they are innately wired to quote unquote win

503
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:30,160
Speaker 1: someone over, and how that gives them the kind of endurance,

504
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:36,360
Speaker 1: the emotional you know, fortitude to keep pushing through mistreatment

505
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:38,319
Speaker 1: or nonchalance.

506
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:44,120
Speaker 2: And then once the people are quote unquote one, then

507
00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:48,320
Speaker 2: they often lose interest, right, because we can get become

508
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:52,799
Speaker 2: enamored with the pursuit, with the chase. Yeah, so we

509
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:56,320
Speaker 2: also have to look at what is my idea about

510
00:36:56,360 --> 00:37:01,520
Speaker 2: myself that when people want me, I find that undesirable.

511
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:06,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, hold on, get your note.

512
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:11,279
Speaker 2: Bunk, And like you know, when they're not interested, I'm like,

513
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:15,680
Speaker 2: oh my gosh, right, I need them. And then when

514
00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:18,160
Speaker 2: they're in your direction, it's like, oh they're born.

515
00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:24,200
Speaker 1: So tell the people, yes, why are they doing that?

516
00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:31,040
Speaker 2: It is own emotional unavailability. So that will create a

517
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:36,359
Speaker 2: pattern where I am constantly interested in people who are

518
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:40,440
Speaker 2: not reciprocating because they're not available, because the truth is

519
00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:44,279
Speaker 2: I'm not because if someone was actually to show up

520
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:48,439
Speaker 2: for me, that could be intense, that could be overwhelming,

521
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:52,840
Speaker 2: that could be very vulnerable. So instead, I'll keep waiting

522
00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:56,000
Speaker 2: for this one to leave their wife, or I'll keep

523
00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:58,680
Speaker 2: waiting for this one to let go of their six

524
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:04,040
Speaker 2: other people and focus on me. It's safe. It's a fantasy.

525
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:09,760
Speaker 2: And so fantasy can take up years of our lives

526
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:13,160
Speaker 2: instead of creating real relationship.

527
00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:18,320
Speaker 1: That is so important to say and be heard. Fantasy

528
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 1: can take up your entire life. Yes, perform, you can

529
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:30,600
Speaker 1: leave this earth having the entire time been playing a performance. Yes,

530
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:34,120
Speaker 1: never having been an actualized version of who you are

531
00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:34,920
Speaker 1: for anybody.

532
00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:37,480
Speaker 2: Yes, what a tragedy.

533
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:39,400
Speaker 1: That's not what we're here.

534
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 2: Right, And to go back to telling ourselves the truth? Right,

535
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:50,719
Speaker 2: So then the truth becomes I don't actually want anybody,

536
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:54,600
Speaker 2: so I'm gonna keep saying I want this person who's

537
00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:58,840
Speaker 2: not choosing me. Right, So it's like, yeah, tell yourself

538
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:02,439
Speaker 2: the truth. What's really going on here? What are you doing? Yeah?

539
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:02,839
Speaker 1: Right?

540
00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:10,719
Speaker 2: Or the truth may be I don't believe anyone would

541
00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:15,400
Speaker 2: ever treat me well because I've never experienced it. So

542
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:18,719
Speaker 2: for some people it's a faith walk. Can I believe

543
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 2: that I could be adored when I have never been?

544
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:25,240
Speaker 1: Yeah?

545
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:27,840
Speaker 2: And the answer is yes you can, Yes, Yes.

546
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:32,480
Speaker 1: You can yes, and that is so deep. It's just

547
00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:36,320
Speaker 1: it's so interesting. You know, it's like even for those listening,

548
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:42,279
Speaker 1: it's like we're in conversation, right, and someone listening is

549
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:46,200
Speaker 1: like they're in the midst of their day. But like

550
00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:49,680
Speaker 1: some of the things that have just been identified, they're

551
00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:52,680
Speaker 1: the root of the root, right. It is the core thing,

552
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:57,800
Speaker 1: the core, the depth of a thing that is keeping

553
00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:04,040
Speaker 1: you from everything, you know. And it's like I just yeah,

554
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:08,879
Speaker 1: like we have to really hold that with the sacredness

555
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:13,080
Speaker 1: it deserves, because like that is what you are alive

556
00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:18,840
Speaker 1: to approach. That is what the work is. And you know,

557
00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:20,880
Speaker 1: I think for a lot of people when they're trying

558
00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:26,200
Speaker 1: to understand what their work is, it's just I found

559
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:31,080
Speaker 1: for myself it was so helpful to switch the trauma

560
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:34,680
Speaker 1: and the disappointments to a lens of this is my

561
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:39,560
Speaker 1: spiritual curriculum in this lifetime. This is exactly what I

562
00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:43,480
Speaker 1: meant to be thinking about. So instead of not thinking

563
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:46,400
Speaker 1: about it, I must let myself think about it and

564
00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:49,400
Speaker 1: approach it and look at it because these were the

565
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:53,600
Speaker 1: set of circumstances I was meant to be in motion

566
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:55,080
Speaker 1: with while I'm here.

567
00:40:55,760 --> 00:41:01,240
Speaker 2: And I think it's so important for us to recognize

568
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:10,200
Speaker 2: that denial and minimizing and avoidance don't work. So our

569
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:13,960
Speaker 2: wounds show up even when we say I'm fine. So

570
00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:16,120
Speaker 2: we say like, oh, I don't think about things like that.

571
00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:19,239
Speaker 2: I don't talk about things like that. But it affects

572
00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:22,080
Speaker 2: the way I date, It affects the way that I parent,

573
00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:24,920
Speaker 2: It affects the way I deal with authority, figures on

574
00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:29,440
Speaker 2: the job because it is unhealed. And so it's not

575
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:33,399
Speaker 2: just like an invitation to say, oh, let's just look

576
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:37,640
Speaker 2: at trauma for trauma's sake. Trauma is looking at you, right,

577
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:41,920
Speaker 2: It is writing your story. And so I choose to

578
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:45,920
Speaker 2: reclaim the pen that there were some things written on

579
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:49,160
Speaker 2: the pages of my life that I did not choose, Yes,

580
00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:53,279
Speaker 2: and I'm not able to erase them. They happened, and

581
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:57,040
Speaker 2: I have the pen now, So what do I want

582
00:41:57,080 --> 00:42:00,600
Speaker 2: to write with the rest of my story? God?

583
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:04,040
Speaker 1: So it's just so powerful and true and beautiful, and

584
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:07,840
Speaker 1: it's you know, and I think, yeah, you know, so

585
00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:10,640
Speaker 1: many people avoid it, right because you think that once

586
00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:12,879
Speaker 1: you admit it or say it or look at it,

587
00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:15,439
Speaker 1: you will be ravaged by it and you will live

588
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:17,600
Speaker 1: in it. But it's like No, I just want it

589
00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:20,759
Speaker 1: to be noticed. I just wanted to be seen a

590
00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:24,320
Speaker 1: few good times so I could be released.

591
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:28,640
Speaker 2: Right, we're running and you can't outrun it because it's

592
00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:34,239
Speaker 2: on you. It's in you. So it is. The more

593
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:37,719
Speaker 2: I run from it, the bigger it gets. And when

594
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:41,239
Speaker 2: I start to look at it and speak it, I

595
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:45,920
Speaker 2: shrink it by recognizing I am bigger than what was

596
00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:46,520
Speaker 2: done to me.

597
00:42:47,400 --> 00:43:00,839
Speaker 1: I am wow, thank you deeply well. One of the

598
00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:06,440
Speaker 1: greatest determinants of our overall wellness is truly the quality

599
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:11,960
Speaker 1: of our relationships. From a psychological and spiritual perspective. What

600
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:19,840
Speaker 1: are the core ingredients for a nourishing relationship? Friendship, romantic

601
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:23,480
Speaker 1: in relationship? But what are the core elements of one

602
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:26,200
Speaker 1: that is healthy and is nourishing?

603
00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:35,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, so one is loving care Right. If I love you,

604
00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:39,719
Speaker 2: I'm not going to do certain things. Right. If I

605
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:43,120
Speaker 2: love you and I care about you, I'm going to

606
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:46,640
Speaker 2: be intentional. If I love you and care about you,

607
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:51,920
Speaker 2: it's not a burden. You don't have to keep asking

608
00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:57,319
Speaker 2: for certain things because it's out of love. Right. So

609
00:43:57,400 --> 00:44:00,000
Speaker 2: sometimes we have to tell ourselves the truth of life.

610
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:04,759
Speaker 2: Do you even care about that person? Right? Because sometimes

611
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:08,000
Speaker 2: we are with people because we are into their potential,

612
00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:10,360
Speaker 2: which is not love. It's like, oh, I want to

613
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:15,520
Speaker 2: make you. I'm gonna make you god my dream person

614
00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:17,879
Speaker 2: out of you. And it's like you don't care about

615
00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:20,880
Speaker 2: that person. Set them free and let them find someone

616
00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:25,520
Speaker 2: who loves them as they are. Right, So yeah, let's

617
00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:30,399
Speaker 2: on a core level that love and care in their

618
00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:34,680
Speaker 2: present condition. So yes, we all want to grow and evolve.

619
00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:39,080
Speaker 2: But if I don't care about you now, then I

620
00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:46,200
Speaker 2: need to release you. So that's one. Another one is you.

621
00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:49,879
Speaker 2: We hear it from everybody, which is communication. A lot

622
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:56,319
Speaker 2: of us are conflict avoidant, so we don't speak up.

623
00:44:57,080 --> 00:45:02,480
Speaker 2: One we wish people would read our minds. I mean right, yeah,

624
00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:07,400
Speaker 2: I understand, and then you know, based on our past,

625
00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:12,719
Speaker 2: we might feel like if I share an issue, they

626
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:16,359
Speaker 2: might get mad or they might leave. So now I'm

627
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:20,040
Speaker 2: just holding it in. But the resentment is growing and

628
00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:23,839
Speaker 2: they're continuing the behavior, not knowing that you really care,

629
00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:27,759
Speaker 2: not knowing that that's an issue. So we have to

630
00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:34,719
Speaker 2: lean into the hard conversations and allow people to see

631
00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:38,720
Speaker 2: us with all that comes with us, and we also

632
00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:42,239
Speaker 2: have to be willing to hear them and to know

633
00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:46,080
Speaker 2: we're not clones. We won't think the same on everything,

634
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:50,960
Speaker 2: our emotional response won't be the same one. So learning

635
00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:56,240
Speaker 2: each other's language is an important part of having a

636
00:45:56,280 --> 00:46:00,920
Speaker 2: healthy connection. And then we want relationships that are reciprocal

637
00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:05,520
Speaker 2: and mutual, not one sided. Whether we're talking about friendship

638
00:46:05,640 --> 00:46:10,080
Speaker 2: or romance. It shouldn't be one person doing everything. Yeah,

639
00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:12,320
Speaker 2: we need to give and receipt.

640
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:16,560
Speaker 1: What is what does reciprocal look like? Because that is

641
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:19,160
Speaker 1: a question that comes up a lot from people because

642
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:23,440
Speaker 1: I think often people think reciprocity is the exact same

643
00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:25,400
Speaker 1: thing in return.

644
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:29,759
Speaker 2: Right it may. This is an important one because our

645
00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:34,520
Speaker 2: personalities and our strengths are different.

646
00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:35,479
Speaker 1: Right.

647
00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:40,399
Speaker 2: So the funny that comes to my mind is with

648
00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:44,520
Speaker 2: my parents. Before my mom was dating my dad, she

649
00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:48,160
Speaker 2: was dating this guy who was a poet, so, you know,

650
00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:51,600
Speaker 2: laying it on all the words, all the words ever

651
00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:59,040
Speaker 2: from God's mouth. Tell then what she said? She started

652
00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:02,520
Speaker 2: dating my dad and literally, he'll sign a card love John.

653
00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:07,160
Speaker 2: Why that that's all you're gonna get? So is it

654
00:47:07,239 --> 00:47:10,120
Speaker 2: gonna now if she could write a whole, big, long poem,

655
00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:12,359
Speaker 2: but is she gonna get a poem back? No, it's

656
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:17,319
Speaker 2: not like his thing. So we have to recognize, you know,

657
00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:19,640
Speaker 2: the ways that people show their love.

658
00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:20,680
Speaker 1: Right.

659
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:25,160
Speaker 2: I was working with a couple and I raised this

660
00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:30,040
Speaker 2: point because the wife is into self help books and

661
00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:32,400
Speaker 2: wanted the husband to like read all these books about

662
00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:36,040
Speaker 2: like successful marriage, and he didn't want to read them.

663
00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:38,440
Speaker 2: But he's never been a reader. It's like when they

664
00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:41,080
Speaker 2: were dating, he wasn't a reader. When they were engaged,

665
00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:44,080
Speaker 2: he wasn't a reader. Like. So to make the number

666
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:47,440
Speaker 2: of books the measure you of his love for you

667
00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:51,279
Speaker 2: is not fair. Right, doesn't mean he doesn't care, it's

668
00:47:51,360 --> 00:47:52,760
Speaker 2: just that's not his thing.

669
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:57,080
Speaker 1: So that's so good, And it may not be how

670
00:47:57,120 --> 00:47:59,279
Speaker 1: his brain works, Like he may not even be able

671
00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:03,800
Speaker 1: to retain in if he reads it, depending on yeah, yeah, yeah,

672
00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:06,000
Speaker 1: so he's willing to go to couple's therapy.

673
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:10,560
Speaker 2: Awesome, let's let's do let's do that. Yeah, let's do that.

674
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:13,600
Speaker 1: You know, I think one of the last things I'd

675
00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:15,799
Speaker 1: love to ask you before I invite you to do

676
00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:18,600
Speaker 1: some soul work. Loneliness is a big theme for people,

677
00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:20,920
Speaker 1: and we're seeing a lot of studies come out about it.

678
00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:25,080
Speaker 1: People are talking about it more than ever people choosing

679
00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:28,640
Speaker 1: to be single. Is that some of the highest numbers

680
00:48:28,640 --> 00:48:33,160
Speaker 1: it's ever been or at least have been recorded. You know,

681
00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:37,040
Speaker 1: I think a lot of one can be lonely for

682
00:48:37,120 --> 00:48:39,080
Speaker 1: so many reasons. First, let me say that I don't

683
00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:42,200
Speaker 1: want to be overly general with our understanding of loneliness

684
00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:45,440
Speaker 1: because it's so layered and there's so many there's so

685
00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:49,640
Speaker 1: many barriers, there's so many reasons for it. But you know,

686
00:48:49,719 --> 00:48:52,239
Speaker 1: one of the reasons that I think not everyone notices

687
00:48:52,680 --> 00:48:56,319
Speaker 1: is that some of their loneliness and self isolation is

688
00:48:56,400 --> 00:49:00,239
Speaker 1: self imposed because they don't necessarily have the tools for

689
00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:05,200
Speaker 1: deeper intimacy, though they crave it. How can people begin

690
00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:11,120
Speaker 1: to move beyond surface level interactions and start to cultivate

691
00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:17,279
Speaker 1: those deeper relationships, that deeper community, that even deeper communication

692
00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:21,160
Speaker 1: that they have been longing for or wanting to experience

693
00:49:21,360 --> 00:49:22,200
Speaker 1: your first time.

694
00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:27,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's important that we look at the stories we've

695
00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:32,720
Speaker 2: been telling ourselves, because the story I've told myself about

696
00:49:32,920 --> 00:49:38,080
Speaker 2: love or about relationships or about attractiveness can then shape

697
00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:43,600
Speaker 2: my behavior, and that can lead me to sabotage the

698
00:49:43,719 --> 00:49:50,520
Speaker 2: possibility of connection. Right, So, people will say like, oh,

699
00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:55,680
Speaker 2: I really want a partner, and they go out there

700
00:49:55,719 --> 00:49:59,360
Speaker 2: at a restaurant or wherever they are and someone approaches

701
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:04,160
Speaker 2: them and they respond in warrior mode like what do

702
00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:05,319
Speaker 2: you want to know my name for?

703
00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:10,680
Speaker 1: Like, wait, I'm looking at why are you sharing at me?

704
00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:18,480
Speaker 2: So now I'm blacking my blessing right because I showed

705
00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:23,200
Speaker 2: up for combat and I want connection. So we or

706
00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:27,960
Speaker 2: you know people who are on these apps, and I

707
00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:30,520
Speaker 2: know there can be a lot of mess on there,

708
00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:36,279
Speaker 2: but some people are like eliminating everybody. Right, It's like no,

709
00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:40,080
Speaker 2: then to this, to that, It's like you want to

710
00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:43,719
Speaker 2: at least have a conversation less at least see if

711
00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:44,600
Speaker 2: it's possible.

712
00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:46,719
Speaker 1: Well that may or may not be me.

713
00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:52,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, So in that exploring the story and then that

714
00:50:52,480 --> 00:50:56,239
Speaker 2: whole thing of like if I want something different, I

715
00:50:56,320 --> 00:50:59,719
Speaker 2: may have to do something different, right, Yeah, And it

716
00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:02,759
Speaker 2: can help to get feedback from people if you have

717
00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:06,279
Speaker 2: close friends, you know, to say, you know, are there

718
00:51:06,320 --> 00:51:10,479
Speaker 2: any things you've noticed about me in this space? Right?

719
00:51:10,960 --> 00:51:14,040
Speaker 2: It may be you know, oh, you hook on the

720
00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:17,800
Speaker 2: people too quickly and that either scares them away or

721
00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:20,920
Speaker 2: then you're all hooked up and it wasn't fulfilling anyway,

722
00:51:21,200 --> 00:51:25,160
Speaker 2: so you like you're back into a bad situation. But

723
00:51:25,400 --> 00:51:29,640
Speaker 2: our our people, if we've let them in, can see us,

724
00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:33,560
Speaker 2: and sometimes they can help us to see ourselves.

725
00:51:35,520 --> 00:51:38,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, and what a gift to to be able to

726
00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:41,560
Speaker 1: ask that of people. And I do you know acknowledge

727
00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:46,560
Speaker 1: that everybody has yet those safe and kind of mutually

728
00:51:46,600 --> 00:51:50,040
Speaker 1: witnessing friendships where you can ask questions like that in

729
00:51:50,080 --> 00:51:52,960
Speaker 1: a safe way. But if you do, and if it's

730
00:51:53,080 --> 00:51:56,720
Speaker 1: just been you know, kind of a defensiveness or something

731
00:51:56,760 --> 00:51:58,600
Speaker 1: that comes in because you don't want to quote unquote

732
00:51:58,640 --> 00:52:03,040
Speaker 1: hear something bad about yourself, think about that and really

733
00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:05,560
Speaker 1: lean into that, because I think sometimes our friends have

734
00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:09,560
Speaker 1: a lot of deep truths for us. Our community has

735
00:52:09,600 --> 00:52:12,520
Speaker 1: a lot of deep truths for us that they may

736
00:52:12,560 --> 00:52:15,400
Speaker 1: have always wanted to say to us as an aid,

737
00:52:15,520 --> 00:52:18,760
Speaker 1: as a help, but don't necessarily know that there's space

738
00:52:18,880 --> 00:52:23,319
Speaker 1: to don't want to upset you or jeopardize you know

739
00:52:23,440 --> 00:52:27,600
Speaker 1: the integrity of the relationship remaining. But those can be

740
00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:32,040
Speaker 1: some of our most valuable, valuable mirrors in our lives.

741
00:52:32,239 --> 00:52:35,360
Speaker 2: Right, It's so true. And so I would say also

742
00:52:35,520 --> 00:52:43,000
Speaker 2: for us, like being teachable, being flexible, being willing to shift.

743
00:52:43,440 --> 00:52:47,920
Speaker 2: You know that sometimes my way of talking to people

744
00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:54,280
Speaker 2: or my way of being may not align with my goal. Right,

745
00:52:54,360 --> 00:52:58,680
Speaker 2: So now I'm standing all my wings, I'm blacking myself.

746
00:52:59,320 --> 00:53:03,960
Speaker 2: So let me explore another way.

747
00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:08,400
Speaker 1: This has been such a beautiful episode. At the end

748
00:53:08,400 --> 00:53:10,680
Speaker 1: of every episode, I like to invite the guys to

749
00:53:10,800 --> 00:53:14,160
Speaker 1: share some soul work with the audience. So any kind

750
00:53:14,239 --> 00:53:20,839
Speaker 1: of practice, thought, inquiry, exercise to further integrate everything that

751
00:53:20,840 --> 00:53:22,439
Speaker 1: they just experienced on this show.

752
00:53:22,719 --> 00:53:27,600
Speaker 2: Oh wonderful. So I'll invite us to some compassion holds,

753
00:53:28,239 --> 00:53:32,080
Speaker 2: and the first ones will put our legs uncrossed and

754
00:53:32,320 --> 00:53:37,160
Speaker 2: uncross our arms. And I want to start off by saying,

755
00:53:37,400 --> 00:53:41,880
Speaker 2: I believe in body sovereignty. So with body sovereignty, nothing

756
00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:44,279
Speaker 2: that I invite you to do are you forced to do?

757
00:53:45,200 --> 00:53:47,880
Speaker 2: So you as I invite you, you take pause and

758
00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:50,239
Speaker 2: say do I feel like doing that? Do I want

759
00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:51,839
Speaker 2: to do that? Or do I just want to watch

760
00:53:51,880 --> 00:53:54,560
Speaker 2: them do that? You get to choose, and that's a

761
00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:59,239
Speaker 2: part of your healing. You're yes and you're no. So

762
00:53:59,320 --> 00:54:02,400
Speaker 2: if it aligns with you, one hand on your heart,

763
00:54:02,480 --> 00:54:06,560
Speaker 2: one hand on your belly inhaling in through the nose,

764
00:54:10,239 --> 00:54:16,319
Speaker 2: exhaling out through the mouth, and the hand on the

765
00:54:16,320 --> 00:54:29,239
Speaker 2: belly goes up to the forehead, inhale and exhale. The

766
00:54:29,360 --> 00:54:31,840
Speaker 2: hand on the heart goes to the back of the head.

767
00:54:34,120 --> 00:54:44,640
Speaker 2: Inhaling through the nose, exhale out through the mouth, and

768
00:54:44,920 --> 00:54:54,759
Speaker 2: hug yourself inhaling in through the nose, exhaling out through

769
00:54:54,760 --> 00:55:00,200
Speaker 2: the mouth. If it aligns with you, you just begin and

770
00:55:00,320 --> 00:55:08,000
Speaker 2: rocking back and forth. You are your comforter. You give

771
00:55:08,080 --> 00:55:14,400
Speaker 2: yourself grace and give yourself love. And if it aligns

772
00:55:14,440 --> 00:55:19,840
Speaker 2: with you, we say the words, I am worthy of love.

773
00:55:21,600 --> 00:55:22,680
Speaker 1: I am worthy of love.

774
00:55:23,719 --> 00:55:25,440
Speaker 2: I come home to myself.

775
00:55:25,920 --> 00:55:27,640
Speaker 1: I come home to myself.

776
00:55:28,239 --> 00:55:32,440
Speaker 2: And you can stop rocking and return to the heart

777
00:55:32,600 --> 00:55:35,720
Speaker 2: and the belly. I am worthy of love.

778
00:55:36,520 --> 00:55:37,800
Speaker 1: I am worthy of love.

779
00:55:38,280 --> 00:55:40,120
Speaker 2: I come home to myself.

780
00:55:40,840 --> 00:55:42,680
Speaker 1: I come home to myself.

781
00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:58,640
Speaker 2: Welcome home, Welcome home, beautiful. Thank you so much, Oh,

782
00:55:58,680 --> 00:56:00,080
Speaker 2: thank you for having me.

783
00:56:00,960 --> 00:56:03,840
Speaker 1: Wow. What an honor, what a pleasure, what a privilege.

784
00:56:03,920 --> 00:56:08,880
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for your work. Everyone. This beautiful

785
00:56:08,880 --> 00:56:12,120
Speaker 1: book is everywhere now. And don't forget to check out

786
00:56:12,120 --> 00:56:16,080
Speaker 1: the og classics that she has been putting out. Matters

787
00:56:16,120 --> 00:56:20,880
Speaker 1: of the Heart by doctor Tama Bryant. We'll be back

788
00:56:21,120 --> 00:56:24,920
Speaker 1: next episode, and in the meantime, really sit with this,

789
00:56:25,200 --> 00:56:27,880
Speaker 1: sit with some of this conversation. See where it applies,

790
00:56:28,520 --> 00:56:31,600
Speaker 1: notice where it doesn't, and share this episode with a

791
00:56:31,640 --> 00:56:35,640
Speaker 1: friend that you think could really be moved and changed

792
00:56:35,680 --> 00:56:38,360
Speaker 1: by it in a way that is helpful and supportive

793
00:56:38,400 --> 00:56:41,880
Speaker 1: to them. As always, thank you for listening. Now mistake.

794
00:56:48,680 --> 00:56:52,480
Speaker 1: The content presented on Deeply Well serves solely for educational

795
00:56:52,560 --> 00:56:56,279
Speaker 1: and informational purposes. It should not be considered a replacement

796
00:56:56,360 --> 00:57:00,400
Speaker 1: for personalized medical or mental health guidance. It does not

797
00:57:00,560 --> 00:57:05,440
Speaker 1: constitute a provider patient relationship. As always, it is advisable

798
00:57:05,520 --> 00:57:08,920
Speaker 1: to consult with your healthcare provider or health team for

799
00:57:09,120 --> 00:57:14,080
Speaker 1: any specific concerns or questions that you may have. Connect

800
00:57:14,080 --> 00:57:18,040
Speaker 1: with me on social at Debbie Brown. That's Twitter and Instagram,

801
00:57:18,280 --> 00:57:21,160
Speaker 1: or you can go to my website Debbie Brown dot com.

802
00:57:21,240 --> 00:57:23,880
Speaker 1: And if you're listening to the show on Apple Podcasts,

803
00:57:23,960 --> 00:57:28,200
Speaker 1: don't forget. Please rate, review, and subscribe and send this

804
00:57:28,320 --> 00:57:31,240
Speaker 1: episode to a friend. Deeply Well is a production of

805
00:57:31,320 --> 00:57:35,560
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio and The Black Effect Network. It's produced by Jacqueis Thomas,

806
00:57:35,800 --> 00:57:40,400
Speaker 1: Samantha Timmins, and me Debbie Brown. The Beautiful Soundbath You

807
00:57:40,480 --> 00:57:45,480
Speaker 1: Heard That's by Jarrelyn Glass from Crystal Cadence for more

808
00:57:45,520 --> 00:57:49,840
Speaker 1: podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, or wherever you

809
00:57:50,000 --> 00:57:52,280
Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.

810
00:58:00,640 --> 00:58:00,840
Speaker 2: Yes,