1 00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:10,200 Speaker 1: Welcome to Creature future production of I Heart Radio. I'm 2 00:00:10,240 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 1: your host of Many Parasites, Katie Golden. I studied psychology 3 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:17,440 Speaker 1: and evolutionary biology, and today on the show animals living 4 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 1: secret lives, from secret societies to secret nighttime powers to 5 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 1: secretly being a living animal in the first place. These 6 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 1: critters are not letting you in their club unless you 7 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 1: know the handshake. Discovered this more as we answered the 8 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 1: angel question If you stab a rock, does it not bleed? 9 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:39,600 Speaker 1: Joining me today is one of my favorite science writers 10 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 1: who has written amazing articles about all sorts of creatures 11 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 1: for The New York Times, and she is currently working 12 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:48,239 Speaker 1: on a book for Atlas Obscure about some of the 13 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 1: world's weirdest critters. Welcome, Kara Giamo. Welcome. I'm so excited 14 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:57,280 Speaker 1: to have you on. I'm a little starstruck because I 15 00:00:57,360 --> 00:01:00,480 Speaker 1: often refer to your articles when I'm research ng for 16 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:03,680 Speaker 1: the show, so it's both weird and really exciting to 17 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:07,759 Speaker 1: be talking to you in person on the show. That's 18 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:10,959 Speaker 1: really flattering. I'm so glad that I've helped to inspire 19 00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:13,959 Speaker 1: such a wacky and fun show with my writing. Well, 20 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 1: thank you so much. And speaking of which, I use 21 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:21,040 Speaker 1: some of your articles to help with research and inspired 22 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:25,720 Speaker 1: this very episode, including one you wrote on giraffes. So 23 00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:28,480 Speaker 1: in this first section, I want to talk about this 24 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:34,040 Speaker 1: secret social lives of mammals. These are secret mammalian societies 25 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:39,840 Speaker 1: because we often are very very like egocentric, very primate centric, 26 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:45,480 Speaker 1: where we think, you know, yeah, primates are smart, guerrillas, chimps, humans, elephants, 27 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:48,920 Speaker 1: and dolphins sort of like this, yeah, you're smart too, 28 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:52,000 Speaker 1: But then when we start to talk about other animals, 29 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:55,160 Speaker 1: were like, well, they couldn't be that complicated. They can't 30 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:58,840 Speaker 1: have like friends like humans do. That doesn't make sense. 31 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 1: They're just big, um glomping things like giraffes, which don't 32 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:06,680 Speaker 1: seem like they'd be very smart. They have this huge 33 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 1: long neck in this itty bitty head perched on top 34 00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:12,560 Speaker 1: of this impossibly long body, and it just doesn't seem 35 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:16,400 Speaker 1: like they'd be someone interested in forming social bonds. But 36 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:20,880 Speaker 1: in fact they may have something like that, right, yeah, absolutely, 37 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:23,799 Speaker 1: So first I just want to say that in my experience, 38 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 1: a lot of the history of animal research is and 39 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:29,240 Speaker 1: plant research, to be honest, and research into any living 40 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:33,000 Speaker 1: things is um scientists starting from the point of view 41 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 1: that oh, this thing can't be all that smarter, all 42 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 1: that talented, and then realizing over the course of you know, 43 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 1: years or decades that oh, actually, all these creatures can 44 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:44,800 Speaker 1: do all these incredible things that we didn't know about it. 45 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:47,520 Speaker 1: They are smart, whether it's smart socially or smart with 46 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:50,639 Speaker 1: their bodies, or just smart being able to survive or 47 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:53,080 Speaker 1: in ways that we haven't even thought of yet. So 48 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:56,480 Speaker 1: that's a really cool part of looking into this area 49 00:02:56,480 --> 00:02:59,680 Speaker 1: of research. But yeah, with giraffes, I wrote about this 50 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:02,160 Speaker 1: recently for The New York Times about sort of secret 51 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 1: giraffe social lives, and uh, yeah, it's true. They used 52 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:10,360 Speaker 1: to have this reputation of being really solitary. Um, but 53 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:14,080 Speaker 1: more and more researchers are seeing that they have really 54 00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:17,520 Speaker 1: complex family groups. It's sort of like a female centric 55 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 1: society where moms and kids and grandmothers and grandkids will 56 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:25,639 Speaker 1: hang out. Um, they do things like they more and 57 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 1: they're dead. It's really complex. Um, it's really cool. Yeah, 58 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:34,520 Speaker 1: it's interesting because I mean my perception of giraffes, probably 59 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:37,240 Speaker 1: also based on sort of childhood stories about drafts, is 60 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 1: they're very aloof there, nonchalant, just with their head in 61 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:45,040 Speaker 1: the clouds kind of literally eaten eaten leaves up in 62 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 1: the trees with without much of a care in the world. 63 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 1: But they, yeah, they they seem to actually have these 64 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:53,560 Speaker 1: social bonds and like you said, it seems to be 65 00:03:53,880 --> 00:04:00,160 Speaker 1: sort of this matriarchal society, so female drafts forming friendships, 66 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:04,800 Speaker 1: having them having an emotional reaction to the death of 67 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 1: like a calf, where they stand over for for many hours. Uh. 68 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 1: They seem to sometimes even engage in alto parenting, which 69 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 1: is when uh, a non parent will look after another person, 70 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:24,800 Speaker 1: another person, another giraffe's offspring, so they babysit each other's calves. 71 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 1: And so this is something that is just recently sort 72 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 1: of been observed. Researchers had to look at like their 73 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:36,840 Speaker 1: specific spot pattern to I d them, because it's sort 74 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 1: of like a thumb print where when you have a 75 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 1: spot pattern you can tell one individual from the other. 76 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 1: But because they're so because they have that such such 77 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:52,720 Speaker 1: a like bolh Vida's kind of laid back lifestyle, it 78 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:55,040 Speaker 1: was I guess hard to tell that. Yeah, they are 79 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:57,800 Speaker 1: in fact hanging out with each other, and they do 80 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:01,839 Speaker 1: prefer the company of certain friends as just we didn't 81 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 1: think like a giraffe and didn't observe them from the 82 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 1: point of view of a giraffe, and so we never 83 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 1: really caught that. Yeah, totally. I think that's something that's 84 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 1: also a little bit egocentric about us, is that when 85 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:17,680 Speaker 1: a creature doesn't live a lifestyle that's recognizable to us, 86 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 1: we just sometimes kind of assume that it's not interesting 87 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:25,560 Speaker 1: or not worth studying. Um. The researchers I talked to 88 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:29,239 Speaker 1: for this yeah, pointed out that giraffes especially are quite 89 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:31,760 Speaker 1: slow um and quite quiet. They don't have a lot 90 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:35,279 Speaker 1: of vocalizations. And so since humans are like really fast 91 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:37,479 Speaker 1: paced and many of us in our lives and we 92 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:41,600 Speaker 1: are constantly talking, constantly talking, I don't know anything about that. 93 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 1: It's not like I do that for a living. Imagine 94 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 1: a giraffe studying us. They would be like, they can't 95 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 1: possibly be doing anything meaningful. They're just chattering constantly. We 96 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:51,920 Speaker 1: don't know what they're saying, and so we don't care. Yeah, 97 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 1: how can they have time to think? They they're spending 98 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 1: all their time just like yammering on and on making 99 00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 1: meats sound to their little face flaps. It's very strange 100 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:06,040 Speaker 1: making podcasts like we can't. We can't handle this. Um, 101 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 1: but yeah, so you're you're right. Once they figured out 102 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:12,120 Speaker 1: how to distinguish individual drafts by their spot patterns, which 103 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:14,880 Speaker 1: took a while, um, they started to see that there 104 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 1: were these really strong connections. Um. The daycare thing is. 105 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 1: So the allo parenting is so impressive to me because 106 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:23,159 Speaker 1: I know that it's quite hard for humans to get 107 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 1: together and figure out childcare. So the fact that drafts 108 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:28,520 Speaker 1: can do this is is pretty sweet. Maybe we should 109 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:31,960 Speaker 1: be looking even more carefully about how they pulled us off. Yeah, yeah, 110 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:34,320 Speaker 1: I think that's kind of a constant theme on the 111 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:36,840 Speaker 1: show too. Whenever I tell a guest about a case 112 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:40,039 Speaker 1: of allo parenting, like, hey, look how bats and in 113 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:43,839 Speaker 1: giraffes and you know, all all these animals will sort 114 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 1: of help each other rear their off throom. They're like, 115 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:49,479 Speaker 1: that seems like a really good idea. Especially parents who 116 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 1: come on They're like, hey, could we do that too? 117 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:56,680 Speaker 1: Maybe that would be great? Right, And I'm not a parent, 118 00:06:56,720 --> 00:06:58,919 Speaker 1: so I'm not going to claim to understand this stuggle, 119 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:01,839 Speaker 1: but uh, it is interesting to think of having someone 120 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:03,920 Speaker 1: say I can't find a babysitter and you just say 121 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 1: to them, oh, well, have you thought of finding a 122 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:09,480 Speaker 1: bunch of bats that could make like vomit food into 123 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 1: your child's mouth every once in a while. It sounds 124 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 1: good to me. I'm going to find a colony of 125 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:16,520 Speaker 1: vampire bats and be like, could you just fom a 126 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 1: little bit of that nice blood into my baby's mouth 127 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:21,119 Speaker 1: when I'm not around. It's got a lot of iron, 128 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 1: a lot of nutrients. Yeah. There's this idea called the 129 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 1: grandmother hypothesis, which is that in certain social animals, long 130 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 1: lived females can help their offspring uh and grand offsprings survive. 131 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:41,120 Speaker 1: And so you'll see in some animals, especially like elephants, 132 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:44,400 Speaker 1: but you also see it in giraffes where females will 133 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 1: live long past their reproductive years, and so the ideas 134 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 1: there is an advantage to this because they can actually 135 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:56,720 Speaker 1: offer help to the younger generations and ensure that they're 136 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 1: their offspring and offsprings offspring actually survive, and this often 137 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 1: will lead to more complex socialization because you you basically 138 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:12,920 Speaker 1: are able to retain more knowledge because you have an 139 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 1: extra generation hanging around passing on wisdom and knowledge. And 140 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 1: whether we don't know exactly yet, like how this works 141 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 1: in giraffes. I think the even knowing that giraffes have 142 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 1: this capability is relatively new, So who knows what hidden 143 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:33,880 Speaker 1: giraffe wisdom is getting passed on from giraffe to giraffe. 144 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 1: Probably things like the best kinds of throat laws and 145 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:41,160 Speaker 1: leaves to eat, because imagine being a draft with a 146 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:43,920 Speaker 1: sore throat. You definitely want to get your heads together 147 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:45,760 Speaker 1: with some other drafts and figure out how to fix that. 148 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:51,560 Speaker 1: And it's not just grafts. I think that are very 149 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:56,400 Speaker 1: surprising when you learn how socially intelligent they are. One 150 00:08:56,440 --> 00:08:59,600 Speaker 1: of the cutest animals that looks sort of like an 151 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 1: over own rodent and is but doesn't seem like it 152 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:06,839 Speaker 1: has much going on in terms of intelligence are otters, 153 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 1: which you know, there are many different species of otters. 154 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:12,400 Speaker 1: I think the most famous is probably the sea otter 155 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:15,240 Speaker 1: because they're just they're the cutest otter. I mean, I 156 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:18,959 Speaker 1: love all otters. I try not to judge based on appearance, 157 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 1: but I think it is pretty objective that sea otters 158 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:25,560 Speaker 1: are the cutest ones. Just those little cheeks. Sea otters 159 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:29,439 Speaker 1: are extremely cute. I actually, as a child um at 160 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:32,959 Speaker 1: a summer camp, kidnapped a stuffed animal sea otter because 161 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:35,800 Speaker 1: I couldn't resist how cute he wasn't I didn't want 162 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:37,840 Speaker 1: to think about him like in the winter with no 163 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:40,600 Speaker 1: one to snuggle him. Yeah, um, so I brought him 164 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:45,040 Speaker 1: home as stuffed You kidnapped the stuff? Uh not a 165 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:52,680 Speaker 1: real one? Not a real I think that's called shoplifting. Actually, yes, 166 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 1: I I stole him from a like a camp toy 167 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:59,320 Speaker 1: bin I see, Yeah, not technically a shop, but also 168 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:05,200 Speaker 1: probably not camplifting, atter napping and the most adorable crime, 169 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:08,400 Speaker 1: the most adorable time I've ever heard. I'm not an arc. 170 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:10,680 Speaker 1: Don't worry, I won't turn you into the outer police. 171 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:14,720 Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean they are they are adorable. Um. 172 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:16,440 Speaker 1: I think a lot of people are aware of this 173 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:19,800 Speaker 1: otter fact, which is that sea otters will use rudimentary 174 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:24,800 Speaker 1: tools to use in aiding them to crack open the 175 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 1: shells of shellfish that they like to eat. So either 176 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:30,960 Speaker 1: it's a little rock they keep on their tommies that 177 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:35,680 Speaker 1: they just kind of uses their favorite little uh abalone 178 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:39,840 Speaker 1: shell smasher, or they also use available rocks in the water, 179 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:42,959 Speaker 1: so if there's a reef for or sort of rocky coastline, 180 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:46,680 Speaker 1: they'll smash their shellfish against those rocks as well. Um, 181 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:50,800 Speaker 1: but that's not the only instance of otter cleverness. They 182 00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 1: also use kelp forests or even human constructions both to 183 00:10:57,240 --> 00:10:59,760 Speaker 1: kind of keep as a nursery for their offspring. So 184 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:02,000 Speaker 1: they just like kind of bundle their young up and 185 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:06,480 Speaker 1: uh some kelp or put them on a boat or 186 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:09,720 Speaker 1: something so that they don't float away, because that's a 187 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 1: real concern. Aside from just their tool use and their 188 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:16,960 Speaker 1: clever use of their environment. You know, they also like 189 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 1: hold hands, which is the cutest thing ever. But yeah, 190 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 1: they'll they'll grab their mates hand because they don't want 191 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:28,080 Speaker 1: their mate to float away because their main their main 192 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:30,480 Speaker 1: form of resting and the ocean is just floating on 193 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:33,960 Speaker 1: their backs like little boats, fuzzy cute little boats. But 194 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:37,440 Speaker 1: of course they want to stay together with their mate. 195 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:41,360 Speaker 1: They'll link hands together so they can be two ships 196 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:44,120 Speaker 1: in the notion of love and it's adorable. Yeah, you 197 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:46,439 Speaker 1: just all you have to do is you put your 198 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:49,320 Speaker 1: baby in a bunch of help so it doesn't float away, 199 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 1: and then you can hold hands with your mate and 200 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:54,480 Speaker 1: just float around. Yes, I do. They do also carry 201 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:58,640 Speaker 1: their their young like on their tummies. Uh you know, 202 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 1: just keeping them safe. But if they need to like 203 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:04,440 Speaker 1: get some food, like you know, go hunting, there needs 204 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:06,400 Speaker 1: to be some way to keep the baby from floating away. 205 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:09,080 Speaker 1: They also use the kelp force for themselves. They'll like 206 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 1: tangle them up that tangle themselves up in the kelps 207 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:16,080 Speaker 1: so they don't float away. Um and while they're resting. 208 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:20,960 Speaker 1: So yeah, they have a keen sense of sort of 209 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:28,160 Speaker 1: naval protocol. Uh. They But there's some kind of interesting 210 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:34,280 Speaker 1: observational evidence that uh seems to indicate that otter intelligence 211 00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:39,079 Speaker 1: goes even deeper than what we may think. So uh see, 212 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:43,079 Speaker 1: otters are not really easily available for research. They're not 213 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:46,360 Speaker 1: in a lot of zoos. Uh, you know, they're not. 214 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 1: It's not some an animal that you can really sort 215 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:53,800 Speaker 1: of post up next to and observe for long periods 216 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:55,920 Speaker 1: of time. So it's a little difficult to research. But 217 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 1: we have been able to do more studies on other 218 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:02,920 Speaker 1: species of otters that are more common in zoos, such 219 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:06,160 Speaker 1: as smooth coated otters. So they are not sea otters. 220 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:10,960 Speaker 1: They're fresh water otters found in Southeast Asian India, and 221 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:15,640 Speaker 1: they hunt cooperatively and will copy each other when presented 222 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:19,400 Speaker 1: with a novel problem such as food stuck in tupperware 223 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:23,400 Speaker 1: that must be open. So when researchers present them with 224 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:27,000 Speaker 1: a tupperware puzzle with some tasty food stuck inside tupperware 225 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:31,080 Speaker 1: that either pulls open or unscrews open, uh, they will 226 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 1: learn from each other. So it might take them a 227 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:34,720 Speaker 1: while to figure out, but once one of them has 228 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:37,079 Speaker 1: figured it out, a lot of them will quickly get 229 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:40,080 Speaker 1: it because they've copied the one that finally figured it out, 230 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:42,679 Speaker 1: and the young otters are really fast at that. So 231 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 1: the young are definitely quicker learners than the older otters, 232 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:48,960 Speaker 1: and they will copy their peers much more quickly to 233 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:55,600 Speaker 1: open up the tupperware. It's like young humans who are like, oh, yeah, 234 00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 1: I know how to use TikTok It's easy. And then 235 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:00,480 Speaker 1: the older humans they're like, I've never seen and anything 236 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:04,160 Speaker 1: like this before, a tupperware, a TikTok tack to it's 237 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:07,080 Speaker 1: not a shell. Yeah, now, what's a tik tac toe. 238 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:13,720 Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, the older otters are like, this shell, 239 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:17,760 Speaker 1: it's like plastic e and like it doesn't crack, Like 240 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:19,360 Speaker 1: I just don't even know how to deal with this. 241 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:26,240 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, mom, it's called tupperware. Get it together. Yeah, yeah, 242 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:29,600 Speaker 1: I love so embarrassing. Yeah, I just imagine these young 243 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:33,360 Speaker 1: ottors rolling their eyes clickity clacking on their little their 244 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:39,760 Speaker 1: little shell phone TikTok's like um but uh. And there's 245 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:42,640 Speaker 1: Even though this study has not been done with sea otters, 246 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 1: there is some anecdotal evidence that seems to indicate they 247 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 1: are also much more intelligent than perhaps we give them 248 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:53,480 Speaker 1: credit for. So. At the Monterey Bay Aquarium, an otter 249 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 1: named kit amuses herself by creating her own puzzles. So 250 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 1: she has a plastic board with a number of holes 251 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 1: in it that I guess it's just sort of one 252 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:07,520 Speaker 1: of these like little ingridgment toys, but she takes it 253 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 1: a step further by putting a shrimp on top of it, 254 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:13,920 Speaker 1: diving underneath it and trying to figure out how to 255 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:19,480 Speaker 1: grab the shrimp from underneath this board. But every time 256 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:21,160 Speaker 1: she ends up getting it, and it's kind of a 257 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 1: game of reverse whack a mole because there are these 258 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:25,280 Speaker 1: little holes and she'll like put a paw up to 259 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 1: try to grab the shrimp wherever it is. And when 260 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 1: she gets it, instead of just eating the shrimp, she 261 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 1: puts it back on top of the board and dives 262 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:37,000 Speaker 1: under to try again. So this is not just a 263 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:41,760 Speaker 1: feeding activity. Uh, this is her little game that she's 264 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:47,240 Speaker 1: set up for self enrichment. That's so cute. My cat 265 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:50,600 Speaker 1: does something like that. We like to play with twisty ties. 266 00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 1: Their sisters um and one of them. If you sew 267 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 1: the twisty tie, we'll just like chase it, get it. 268 00:15:57,480 --> 00:15:59,160 Speaker 1: Like then he s hear it again, She chased it, 269 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:02,000 Speaker 1: gets it. The other one, poppy seed. If you throw 270 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 1: the twist house, she'll go behind like four different chairs 271 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:06,720 Speaker 1: so that she has to jump through them in order 272 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:08,880 Speaker 1: to get it. She like makes it more complicated for herself. 273 00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:12,160 Speaker 1: It's very cute. She's got up the challenge. Like you know, 274 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:15,400 Speaker 1: when you could be an utter. Yeah, I think there 275 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 1: is something to that, because if you are a complex 276 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:22,600 Speaker 1: animal who's intelligent, and you have food readily available to you, 277 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:25,000 Speaker 1: like I'm sure you feed your cats, you don't make 278 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:28,600 Speaker 1: them subsist in the wild on their own. And these 279 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:31,760 Speaker 1: these otters in the zoo are are fed and taken 280 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 1: care of, but they still need that intellectual stimulation. So 281 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:40,000 Speaker 1: cats love to play, and this otter, probably in the 282 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:43,240 Speaker 1: absence of having to find her own food and figure 283 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:45,320 Speaker 1: out how to crack open her own food, which I'm 284 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:49,360 Speaker 1: sure the zoo probably also provides enrichment activities. But you know, 285 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:52,480 Speaker 1: it's a cushy life, and so she's got to introduce 286 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:57,200 Speaker 1: an element of fun and games into it. Yeah. I 287 00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:02,480 Speaker 1: think humans can definitely relate to that. Yeah, very I think. Um. 288 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:07,000 Speaker 1: Sometimes we're also sort of in denial about animals intelligence, 289 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:11,640 Speaker 1: especially when it makes us uncomfortable, such as the intelligence 290 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:14,960 Speaker 1: of farm animals and animals that we like to eat. 291 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:18,359 Speaker 1: And I'm I'm definitely not coming from a high horse 292 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:23,200 Speaker 1: because I personally am not a vegetarian, but I cannot 293 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:28,080 Speaker 1: deny that we do underestimate the intelligence of animals that 294 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:32,400 Speaker 1: we consume as food. And one such animals are cows. 295 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:36,800 Speaker 1: So cows may not be the smartest of barnyard animals. 296 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:40,280 Speaker 1: I think that probably goes to pigs. Um. But that 297 00:17:40,359 --> 00:17:44,000 Speaker 1: does not mean that they are mindless grass munching sort 298 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 1: of empty vessels of meat. Uh. They have performed really 299 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:55,520 Speaker 1: well at memory tasks when it comes to locating quality food. Uh. 300 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:59,040 Speaker 1: They can quickly remember a good food location or landmark 301 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:02,080 Speaker 1: within a day and remember that association for up to 302 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:04,720 Speaker 1: forty eight days, which I think might actually be better 303 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:07,919 Speaker 1: than my memories sometimes when it comes to sort of 304 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 1: spatial navigation. And they also have a secret social life. 305 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:16,480 Speaker 1: They often have a preferred cow friend they like to 306 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 1: hang out with and eat with. So a little more 307 00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:22,439 Speaker 1: complicated than I think is always comfortable to think about 308 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:27,520 Speaker 1: considering that we farm them. Yeah, that's really really good 309 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:31,160 Speaker 1: to remember. Um. I think again, like from my perspective, 310 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:35,480 Speaker 1: pretty much all animals have have something like that, even 311 00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 1: that's legible to us that we can see as intelligence. Um, 312 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:41,440 Speaker 1: if we just look carefully. And then also on top 313 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:43,119 Speaker 1: of that, probably a lot of things that we just 314 00:18:43,119 --> 00:18:46,720 Speaker 1: don't appreciate because we don't live their lives. I want 315 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:49,720 Speaker 1: to plug. I have a really a poem that I 316 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:54,119 Speaker 1: really love about cows by Lydia Is by Lydia Davis. 317 00:18:54,119 --> 00:18:57,800 Speaker 1: It's just called the Cows, but it's about their movements 318 00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:00,920 Speaker 1: and how they arrange themselves in space, and she makes 319 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:04,199 Speaker 1: it seem very intelligent and beautiful, which it is if 320 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:06,719 Speaker 1: you look at it the right way, I think. Um, 321 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 1: so yeah, if you want to think a little deeper 322 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:12,439 Speaker 1: about cows, that poem is great and ironically excited about 323 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:17,640 Speaker 1: cow poetry. Now great a copy, thank you, but yeah, 324 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:22,679 Speaker 1: and in fact, they have recently been found that they 325 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:27,800 Speaker 1: can be trained to use the toilet, so by rewarding 326 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:32,640 Speaker 1: cows with food for peeing in a special cow toilet uh, 327 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:34,840 Speaker 1: and then also sprits ing them with a sprinkler when 328 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:37,640 Speaker 1: they go outside the toilet, which I don't think hurts them, 329 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 1: but they don't like it. It's kind of like when 330 00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:42,119 Speaker 1: you bray cat with a spray bottle. They do not 331 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:46,720 Speaker 1: like that. Not appreciated researcher was able to toilet train 332 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 1: the cows, so the cows were able to open and 333 00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:52,600 Speaker 1: close the gate to the bathroom all by themselves, go 334 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:56,720 Speaker 1: do their business and come right out. Which well, yeah, 335 00:19:56,760 --> 00:19:59,120 Speaker 1: I know it's it's you, don't you kind of don't 336 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 1: think of a cow. It's being capable of our perception 337 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:07,040 Speaker 1: of them as their big, dumb, messy and without really 338 00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:10,280 Speaker 1: you know, much goals in life other than to eat 339 00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:15,159 Speaker 1: grass and you know, past gas. Yeah. I think that 340 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:17,719 Speaker 1: that perception seems really new to me too, because if 341 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:21,119 Speaker 1: you think about all the older cultures and the you know, 342 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:25,440 Speaker 1: non um us cultures that like valorized cows and also 343 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:32,200 Speaker 1: even like European like Renaissance paintings of cows. They're such beautiful, amazing, 344 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:37,199 Speaker 1: peaceful animals. I think the fact the factory farming system 345 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:38,840 Speaker 1: has kind of forced us to look at them in 346 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:41,240 Speaker 1: this particular way. But I'm glad that people are starting 347 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:43,800 Speaker 1: to research their abilities. And I think I saw a 348 00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:47,679 Speaker 1: study last year where cows could use VR goggles or 349 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:54,400 Speaker 1: something like Cows and Beer. Yeah, Cows of the Future. Yeah, 350 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:56,360 Speaker 1: And I think that was like to see if they 351 00:20:56,359 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 1: could improve cows quality of life through VR, which is 352 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:04,359 Speaker 1: it's interesting and I'm not against that kind of research 353 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:07,120 Speaker 1: of it. It's also like, maybe we should just give 354 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:10,600 Speaker 1: cows a little more space outside. Yeah, right, it's kind 355 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:12,960 Speaker 1: of spooky, Like should we put cows in the matrix, 356 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:17,639 Speaker 1: like a cow matrix? Yeah? Yeah, I'm not sure about that. Actually, 357 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:19,320 Speaker 1: I think I would have to say that I don't 358 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:21,440 Speaker 1: like that. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know about 359 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:23,959 Speaker 1: that either. It's because then you're gonna need like a 360 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:29,520 Speaker 1: kiyamu reeves to be neo, you know, free all the 361 00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:32,040 Speaker 1: cows from the cow matrix. I was waiting for it 362 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:36,120 Speaker 1: to land that one. That was really good, thank you, 363 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 1: But yeah, the hope for the cow toilet is that 364 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:43,879 Speaker 1: it will be more sanitary for the cows that allowed 365 00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:47,240 Speaker 1: them to keep their living areas clean, giving them some 366 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:51,720 Speaker 1: autonomy over their environment, as well as reducing ammonia emissions 367 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:54,080 Speaker 1: from their urine, which can be really bad when it 368 00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:56,439 Speaker 1: sort of gets into the water cycle. It can like 369 00:21:56,520 --> 00:22:00,640 Speaker 1: contribute to acid rain and run off that can destroy 370 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:05,320 Speaker 1: sort of wetlands and coastal areas. So cow toilets actually 371 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:10,439 Speaker 1: could be a vast improvement for for farms, but I 372 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:14,520 Speaker 1: think like that would still it's just one piece of 373 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 1: maybe completely revamping our factory farm system, because you know, 374 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:22,960 Speaker 1: even if you're not a vegetarian, which I'm personally not 375 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:28,760 Speaker 1: a vegetarian, but I'm still extremely uncomfortable with factory farming. 376 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:32,760 Speaker 1: I think that if we're going to eat animals, we 377 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:35,760 Speaker 1: should at least have the decency to give them a 378 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:39,119 Speaker 1: good life, not just sort of basic humane treatment, but 379 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:42,240 Speaker 1: actually good quality of life where they can go outside 380 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:46,200 Speaker 1: and have fun cow times. Yeah, totally. I think that's 381 00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:48,720 Speaker 1: another kind of upshot of the stuff we're talking about here, 382 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:51,880 Speaker 1: Like the more we learn about animals and how they 383 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:53,919 Speaker 1: like to enjoy life and all the different things that 384 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:59,280 Speaker 1: they do with their days, like, it's only logical and like, 385 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:03,600 Speaker 1: you know, moral that we should try to help them 386 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:05,520 Speaker 1: have lives like that, especially like you said, if we're 387 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:07,080 Speaker 1: going to eat them at the end of it. Um, 388 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 1: I feel like we kind of owe to them. Yeah. 389 00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:12,280 Speaker 1: I am a vegetarian, so I have a very small soapbox, 390 00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:15,440 Speaker 1: But I also understand that people make different decisions about 391 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:17,800 Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. Um. But yeah, I think I 392 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 1: think if you ask your average person, they would agree 393 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:23,960 Speaker 1: that they wanted it the animals that they interact with 394 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:27,879 Speaker 1: to have good lives. Yeah, I think, And it's something 395 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:31,960 Speaker 1: that's going would require some amount of sacrifice for our 396 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:36,600 Speaker 1: own just immediate once, like probably it would require are 397 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:42,240 Speaker 1: cutting our meat consumption because we simply cannot sustain sort 398 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:45,760 Speaker 1: of the massive magnitude of cows we keep in factory 399 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 1: farm settings. But I think that in the long run, 400 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 1: I think that kind of thing would also be much 401 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:53,760 Speaker 1: more beneficial to humans, because I don't think factory farms 402 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 1: are good for human workers. They put smaller farms out 403 00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:01,280 Speaker 1: of business. They're not They're not great on workers rights 404 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:04,720 Speaker 1: and workers safety. We saw that during the pandemic, and 405 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:07,920 Speaker 1: and it's really bad for the environment as well. So 406 00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:10,720 Speaker 1: I think that when we open our minds to maybe 407 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:15,720 Speaker 1: respecting animals we see as dumb or unimportant or expendable, 408 00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:18,720 Speaker 1: we may actually kind of be able to introspect a 409 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:22,199 Speaker 1: little more about how, well, maybe we're viewing this as 410 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:25,400 Speaker 1: an inevitable thing, but if we change it, we may 411 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:30,520 Speaker 1: actually improve human life as well as well as sort 412 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:32,879 Speaker 1: of I think are moral imperative to make sure the 413 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:36,199 Speaker 1: animals that we have in our care are you know, 414 00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:41,080 Speaker 1: living living, good, comfortable and enjoyable lives, even if we 415 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:46,280 Speaker 1: decide to use them as meat eventually. Yeah, I think 416 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:48,760 Speaker 1: that's totally true and a really good point. Like we're 417 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:52,600 Speaker 1: all connected, especially now, and humans make so many decisions 418 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:56,439 Speaker 1: that affect other species. Um, it is really good to 419 00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:59,480 Speaker 1: think about them through in that way and not not 420 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:03,440 Speaker 1: just about like the profit motive or whatever like we're 421 00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:07,000 Speaker 1: used to having at the top of our minds. Yeah, exactly. 422 00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:14,560 Speaker 1: One of my favorite kinds of animal secrets is when 423 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:18,160 Speaker 1: you don't even realize it's an animal, or that it's 424 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:23,439 Speaker 1: even alive. So, uh, there are lots of animals that 425 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:25,520 Speaker 1: like to play dead, and we've talked about some of 426 00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:29,040 Speaker 1: them on the show. We've talked about uh, We've talked 427 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:32,360 Speaker 1: about possums a lot. I love love possums, love their 428 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:37,080 Speaker 1: incredible playing dead trick. We've talked about hog nosed snakes. 429 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:40,480 Speaker 1: They also love to play dead. But I think sometimes 430 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:44,199 Speaker 1: it's like it seems like a fairly complicated behavior that 431 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:47,920 Speaker 1: you would expect from something like Okay, yeah, a possum 432 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:51,400 Speaker 1: is pretty intelligent, like you know, even a hog nosed snake. 433 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:54,840 Speaker 1: It's like they've they've got a sizeable brain and they 434 00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:58,040 Speaker 1: can they can, you know, uh, use this to their 435 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:01,959 Speaker 1: advantage to be able to fake out a predator. But 436 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:07,240 Speaker 1: you wrote in a recent article about antline larvae who 437 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:10,720 Speaker 1: will play dead, which to me is very interesting because 438 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:13,760 Speaker 1: it is, you know, when I think about insects, they're 439 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:17,600 Speaker 1: one of the more simple animals, no judgment. I love insects. 440 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:21,159 Speaker 1: But then you take that and you even take like 441 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:25,520 Speaker 1: their larva, it's like this very complicated behavior in such 442 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:30,840 Speaker 1: a simple little package. Totally. I love insects. I read 443 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 1: about insects a lot, and part of the reason why 444 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 1: is because they're so surprising. Like you said, we have 445 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:39,080 Speaker 1: this image of them as simple and they are very small, 446 00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:44,119 Speaker 1: and their brains are often very small. But um, while people, 447 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:46,879 Speaker 1: I think used to think of them as interesting study 448 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:49,560 Speaker 1: subjects because they thought of them as like automatons or 449 00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:51,639 Speaker 1: their program to do certain things, and they have like 450 00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:54,080 Speaker 1: a limited number of moves, you know, like a video 451 00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:57,520 Speaker 1: game page or something. Um. We're learning that they're actually 452 00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:01,119 Speaker 1: much more complex and interesting than that. Um. And that 453 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:05,840 Speaker 1: predator species like praying mantis is um are so complicated 454 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:07,879 Speaker 1: in the ways that they are able to catch bugs. 455 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:11,359 Speaker 1: And then meanwhile, pray species like antliins are actually really 456 00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:15,359 Speaker 1: complicated in the ways that they avoid being eaten. Yeah. Yeah, 457 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:18,359 Speaker 1: with these antline larvae, Yeah, some of them can play 458 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,960 Speaker 1: dead for over an hour, which is very difficult to imagine. 459 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:25,080 Speaker 1: Like if you're in a let's say, like a zombie 460 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:27,960 Speaker 1: situation and you need to pretend to be dead, like, 461 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 1: none of us could do it for an hour. It 462 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:32,520 Speaker 1: would be way too hard. You gotta breathe, you gotta 463 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:35,280 Speaker 1: My nose would immediately be itching. Like if I had 464 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:38,800 Speaker 1: to play, it's like, oh god, but I have to 465 00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:41,280 Speaker 1: itch my nose. I'd be dead in like two minutes 466 00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:44,040 Speaker 1: because I'd have to itch my nose. Like just thinking 467 00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:45,920 Speaker 1: about having to itch my nose makes me want to 468 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:49,800 Speaker 1: itch my nose. Yeah, so the antline larvae would all 469 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:54,240 Speaker 1: survive the zombie invasion and we would not Wow. Well yeah, 470 00:27:54,480 --> 00:28:00,359 Speaker 1: you know, stick that in your pipe and smoke at humanity. Yeah. 471 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:03,600 Speaker 1: So you know, it's I think this is something that 472 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:06,320 Speaker 1: it touches upon this greater theme of like, you see 473 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:09,199 Speaker 1: this animal, it looks it doesn't look like much on 474 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:11,679 Speaker 1: the surface, like an antline larvae looks sort of like 475 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:18,679 Speaker 1: a creepy little, sort of fuzzy, spiky almost like uh, 476 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:23,080 Speaker 1: I don't know, like living tiny pine cone. They don't 477 00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:25,920 Speaker 1: you know, they don't they don't look like much. Um, 478 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:29,399 Speaker 1: but then they have this incredibly complex behavior of playing 479 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:31,880 Speaker 1: dead and then they bank on the fact that they 480 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:35,760 Speaker 1: sort of don't look like much too, uh, kind of 481 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:42,360 Speaker 1: be bypassed by some predator. This study was really cool because, um, 482 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:46,760 Speaker 1: like even the researchers, um, you know, they didn't mean 483 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:50,120 Speaker 1: to find this out. They were something different, um. And 484 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:52,480 Speaker 1: they just had picked up a bunch of antline larvae 485 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 1: because they wanted to weigh them, and they thought it 486 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:55,480 Speaker 1: was going to be really hard because they thought they'd 487 00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:57,880 Speaker 1: be skittering around. But as soon as they put them 488 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:01,719 Speaker 1: on the scale, the larvae were just we're dead, and 489 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:04,160 Speaker 1: the researchers like, we didn't know you could do this, 490 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:06,960 Speaker 1: so they decided to sort of look into it, and 491 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:11,240 Speaker 1: they found some really impressive um time spans that they 492 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:12,920 Speaker 1: could do it for, as well as the fact that 493 00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:16,000 Speaker 1: the time spend really varies, so different larvae at different 494 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:18,320 Speaker 1: times will play dead for very very different amounts of 495 00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 1: time because it's kind of a group survival strategy where 496 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:25,280 Speaker 1: like maybe like at least some will survive even if 497 00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:28,240 Speaker 1: others can't, can't do it for long enough. Yeah, yeah, 498 00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:32,360 Speaker 1: and that almost makes me think it's similar to, you know, 499 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:37,000 Speaker 1: the the kind of like gambling thing of of if 500 00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:42,520 Speaker 1: you are always consistently playing dead for a consistent amount 501 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:46,440 Speaker 1: of time, that behavior becomes easier to predict as a predator, 502 00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:49,760 Speaker 1: whereas if it's very variable, the predator can't figure it out, 503 00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:52,959 Speaker 1: can't predict it. So it's like with slot machines are gambling. 504 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:56,120 Speaker 1: If you can predict how the slot machine works, you 505 00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:58,320 Speaker 1: basically can win at the slot machine. But if you 506 00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:00,600 Speaker 1: can't predict it, it will continu you to trick you 507 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:02,720 Speaker 1: the whole time you're there, and you'll lose all your money. 508 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:07,520 Speaker 1: Not speaking from experience, I do like how one of 509 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:10,840 Speaker 1: the researchers described it as cute, how they seem to 510 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:17,120 Speaker 1: demonstrate an abundance of caution when they're playing dead. Yeah, yeah, no, no, 511 00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:21,280 Speaker 1: I'm dead. Don't worry about it for hours. I love 512 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:24,600 Speaker 1: talking to researchers, especially insect researchers, because they have often 513 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:27,959 Speaker 1: such fondness for their subjects, like anybody does when I've 514 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:30,080 Speaker 1: worked with something for a long time, and they will 515 00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:33,560 Speaker 1: call things cute that you would never think of when 516 00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:35,480 Speaker 1: you when you do pay some attention, you're like, yeah, 517 00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:38,080 Speaker 1: that is cute. Yes, yeah, no, that's I think that 518 00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:41,040 Speaker 1: is to me, an important message to get across in 519 00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:44,800 Speaker 1: this podcast is things that kind of like gooey or weird. 520 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:48,000 Speaker 1: It's like yeah, but if you get to know them, 521 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:56,560 Speaker 1: they're they're charming. Sometimes animals don't even seem like they're alive, 522 00:30:56,720 --> 00:31:00,160 Speaker 1: and it's not even that they're playing dead, but or 523 00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:03,560 Speaker 1: physical appearance is not what you would expect to find 524 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:08,520 Speaker 1: in a living animal. Uh. And one example of this, 525 00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:11,880 Speaker 1: which I think is it's really funny, it's this um 526 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:16,800 Speaker 1: recent discovery made UH in Japan is a is a 527 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:21,720 Speaker 1: pod that looks like a piece of sushi. Marine isopods 528 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:26,800 Speaker 1: are these creepy crawley arthropods that can either be small 529 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:30,600 Speaker 1: or really huge, like puppy sized. There are these tongue 530 00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:34,640 Speaker 1: eating louses, which we've talked about before on the show. Uh. 531 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:39,240 Speaker 1: They kind of look like overgrown roly pulleys or pill bugs. 532 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:41,360 Speaker 1: I think it depends on which regeon you're in what 533 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:44,280 Speaker 1: you call them, but like roly pollies, pillbugs. Maybe some 534 00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:47,760 Speaker 1: people call them like potato bugs. I'm not really sure 535 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:52,040 Speaker 1: what all the different names are, but uh, And the 536 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:55,880 Speaker 1: reason they look like giant pillbugs is that pillbugs are 537 00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:59,320 Speaker 1: also isopods, so their terrestrial isopods. While there are also 538 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:04,160 Speaker 1: marine i pods. Usually marine isopods are this pale, ghostly white. 539 00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:08,200 Speaker 1: They're a little bit creepy looking, maybe, especially ones that 540 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:10,680 Speaker 1: peek out of a fish's mouth just like you know, 541 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:14,000 Speaker 1: like ha ha, I'm I'm eating your tongue, which we 542 00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:16,840 Speaker 1: actually talked about on the last episode. Off the coast 543 00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:20,280 Speaker 1: of Japan's northern island Hokkaido, one of these was found 544 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:25,320 Speaker 1: that was pink and beautiful and it looked exactly like 545 00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:31,520 Speaker 1: a piece of salmon sushi. It looks delicious. Yeah, I'm 546 00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:34,760 Speaker 1: looking at this picture. Now, Um, if it were, you know, 547 00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:39,240 Speaker 1: in a little tray, I probably think it was in 548 00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:44,480 Speaker 1: a tray with like some of that little like plastic grass. Yeah, 549 00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:48,360 Speaker 1: it looks it looks delicious. It looks it has that 550 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:51,760 Speaker 1: you know, white banding across it, which is actually it's 551 00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:56,280 Speaker 1: its segments, but it looks pink and it's it's like 552 00:32:56,560 --> 00:33:01,080 Speaker 1: and the fact that it's belly is why eat it 553 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:03,800 Speaker 1: makes it look like it's a piece of salmon sitting 554 00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:07,040 Speaker 1: on top of a ball of rice, which I think 555 00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:11,360 Speaker 1: is what's so funny about this is clearly there's no 556 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:15,440 Speaker 1: advantage to this. I a pod looking like a piece 557 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:19,520 Speaker 1: of sushi. This is an example of complete coincidence where 558 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:22,880 Speaker 1: we see this thing and it looks like something entirely different, 559 00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:26,720 Speaker 1: but it has not evolved to look like sushi. It 560 00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:31,080 Speaker 1: would be so funny if it had, if it involved, 561 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:34,080 Speaker 1: like specifically in the context of the whole Foods prepared 562 00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:37,600 Speaker 1: food section. Right, it just like made its life there. 563 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:40,480 Speaker 1: But yeah, I see what you're saying. It's like preying 564 00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:42,960 Speaker 1: on humans. Somehow we eat it and then it becomes 565 00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:47,120 Speaker 1: an indo parasite inside us. That's a really cool idea 566 00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:51,840 Speaker 1: for a movie. Yeah, yeah, the secret sushi killers. The 567 00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:55,760 Speaker 1: reason this one is this beautiful pink color and not 568 00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:59,760 Speaker 1: its normal ghostly white pale color is thought to probably 569 00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:03,719 Speaker 1: be it's diet. So the aquarium caretakers think this unusual 570 00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:07,880 Speaker 1: color is because whatever fish that this little guy was 571 00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:13,840 Speaker 1: a parasite on may have had more, uh more pink 572 00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:18,400 Speaker 1: coloration or red coloration, and so for some reason, this 573 00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:21,840 Speaker 1: this little guy was getting this from its diet. It 574 00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:25,160 Speaker 1: could also potentially be a mutation. We know that with lobsters, 575 00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:28,560 Speaker 1: they there are a lot of color mutations, a change 576 00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:32,799 Speaker 1: in the structure of the proteins in their exoskeleton that 577 00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:35,920 Speaker 1: can turn them in from bright blue to sort of 578 00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:40,520 Speaker 1: an orange orange color, which you know, lobsters are not orange. 579 00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:42,920 Speaker 1: They do not look like cooked lobsters in nature. They 580 00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:47,399 Speaker 1: look like they have this muddy brown coloration. Right. But yeah, 581 00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:51,680 Speaker 1: it's I just I just love that. It's like it 582 00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:54,279 Speaker 1: is seafood, but not the kind of seafood you think 583 00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:58,400 Speaker 1: it is. Yeah, No, it's very it's very fun to 584 00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:01,160 Speaker 1: think about and look at I think carriage everybody to 585 00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:04,600 Speaker 1: to click through and look at this little guy speaking 586 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:10,759 Speaker 1: of something that is seafood but deceptive, is I mean, 587 00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:15,720 Speaker 1: just imagine you're in a fancy restaurant and a chef 588 00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:19,920 Speaker 1: just drops this big gray, craggley rock in front of you, 589 00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:23,960 Speaker 1: and you know, kind of looks at you expectantly and 590 00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:27,360 Speaker 1: you're just like, okay, thanks for the rock, I guess. 591 00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:31,400 Speaker 1: Then the chef takes out a big butcher's knife slices 592 00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:36,040 Speaker 1: into the rock, and it reveals like this marbled flesh inside. 593 00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:39,040 Speaker 1: You're not on an alien planet. You are on Earth 594 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:42,439 Speaker 1: and you are lucky enough to try some meat rock 595 00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:48,920 Speaker 1: known as Pyora chilensis. So this is extremely cool. Yeah, 596 00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:53,520 Speaker 1: it looks like it looks like a photoshop or or 597 00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:56,239 Speaker 1: an alien because it literally looks like a rock that 598 00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:58,360 Speaker 1: you slice into and there's a bunch of sort of 599 00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:03,920 Speaker 1: reddish orange or guns inside. And this thing is actually 600 00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:07,680 Speaker 1: alive and it is a Tunic hit also known as 601 00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:10,719 Speaker 1: a c squirt, a much cuter name than tunicate. But 602 00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:15,239 Speaker 1: we've actually talked about tunicates a little bit before on 603 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:18,760 Speaker 1: the show. How they start off life as a weird 604 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:23,080 Speaker 1: little tadpole creature and then they attached themselves to a rock, 605 00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:27,319 Speaker 1: and as an adult they become completely sessile or immobile, 606 00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:32,680 Speaker 1: and uh, they will grow this sort of hard cellulose 607 00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:37,560 Speaker 1: like tunicate or tunate shell. Uh, it's not really a shell. 608 00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:41,239 Speaker 1: It's like this. It's actually really weird because it is 609 00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:47,480 Speaker 1: structurally very similar to plant cellulose, but it is obviously 610 00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:53,840 Speaker 1: coming from and animal. And so for the this meat 611 00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:56,920 Speaker 1: rock tunique, it it is a little different from some 612 00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:59,080 Speaker 1: of the marine tunicates we've talked about before, because a 613 00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:02,840 Speaker 1: lot of tunic kates are these really beautiful, bright, vibrant colors. 614 00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:06,200 Speaker 1: They look almost like plants or like some kind of 615 00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:13,560 Speaker 1: alien trumpet with bright purples and yellows. But Piora chilensis 616 00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:18,120 Speaker 1: it just looks like a big, gray, weird rock until 617 00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:21,399 Speaker 1: you cut into it. Yeah, it's really surprising to see 618 00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:25,960 Speaker 1: the inside. It's really shocking. Yeah, yeah, it's it looks 619 00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:30,080 Speaker 1: it looks it looks completely alien or completely made up. 620 00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:35,200 Speaker 1: Looks sort of like a Cronenberg creation from one of 621 00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:39,760 Speaker 1: his movies. It's called pure in Spanish, and it's commonly 622 00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:43,800 Speaker 1: found off the coast of Chile. So they're often used 623 00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:47,719 Speaker 1: in cuisine because those chunks of meat inside the quote 624 00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:53,680 Speaker 1: unquote rock exterior are apparently quite tasty, both raw and cooked. 625 00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:57,400 Speaker 1: Apparently it tastes like a stronger sea urchin with a 626 00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:02,400 Speaker 1: sort of cilantro soap be taste, which I'm not going 627 00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:05,319 Speaker 1: to judge because I've never actually eaten it, but to me, 628 00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:09,480 Speaker 1: soapy doesn't sound like something i'd want to eat. But 629 00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:13,799 Speaker 1: you know, if it is used enough, it must it 630 00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:17,399 Speaker 1: must have it must have some some good flavor going 631 00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:19,680 Speaker 1: on there. It's just so funny to think about, like 632 00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:22,839 Speaker 1: it's such a human thing, um apparently also an otter 633 00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:26,000 Speaker 1: thing to just like pick something up, crack it open 634 00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:29,480 Speaker 1: and being like can I eat that? Yeah, something we 635 00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:33,080 Speaker 1: share with the otters. Yeah, yeah, I mean there was 636 00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:37,280 Speaker 1: there was a YouTube video of some guy like cutting 637 00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:39,960 Speaker 1: into these things and like stabbing these things, and it 638 00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:44,200 Speaker 1: was actually taken down for graphic content, which I think 639 00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:46,160 Speaker 1: is that is kind of funny because they are all 640 00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:48,960 Speaker 1: sorts of YouTube videos of people like gutting fish, and 641 00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:52,000 Speaker 1: you know, it's like it's the same thing, but somehow 642 00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:59,080 Speaker 1: meat Rock was a little too far for YouTube standards. Totally. Yeah. 643 00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:03,520 Speaker 1: Like I mentioned earlier, like most tunic its, the this 644 00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:06,600 Speaker 1: this meat Rock starts off life as actually a mobile 645 00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:11,080 Speaker 1: little tadpole thing, uh that lives in the ocean, and 646 00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:14,240 Speaker 1: then it'll attach itself to a rock, and in fact, 647 00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:18,000 Speaker 1: like with a lot of tunic its, it goes through 648 00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:22,960 Speaker 1: this this metamorphosis where it actually depletes its brain size 649 00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:28,520 Speaker 1: and increases its stomach capacity, and so it starts it 650 00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:33,960 Speaker 1: really kind of emphasizes the ability to suck food in 651 00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:42,120 Speaker 1: through the csiphone on Thanksgiving, right, yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah, 652 00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:46,840 Speaker 1: that's I mean, like brain off, mouth open. That's my philosophy. 653 00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:51,520 Speaker 1: That's my Thanksgiving philosophy. And this is this little guy's philosophy. 654 00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:55,560 Speaker 1: And then it grows into this this rock like uh creature, 655 00:39:56,719 --> 00:40:01,000 Speaker 1: and that heart exterior called a tunic in which, like 656 00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:04,640 Speaker 1: I mentioned earlier, it's made out of a weird animal 657 00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:09,080 Speaker 1: version of cellulose uh. And then underneath that layer of 658 00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:14,440 Speaker 1: tunquin is in a sort of skin and then muscle 659 00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:21,160 Speaker 1: in organs, so very strange um and also even weirder 660 00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:25,640 Speaker 1: and more alien is its blood is actually clear and 661 00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:30,400 Speaker 1: full of vanadium, which is a rare chemical element whose 662 00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:34,600 Speaker 1: role in the tunicuets circulatory system is really unclear. We 663 00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:39,600 Speaker 1: don't know why. Yeah, yeah, And I can't figure out 664 00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:44,000 Speaker 1: the anatomy of it. I tried, and I looked for diagrams, 665 00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:47,520 Speaker 1: but it's like you cut into and there's just all 666 00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:51,759 Speaker 1: these like meaty chunks, and I'm assuming one of the 667 00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:56,280 Speaker 1: chunks is like the pharynx, maybe the digestive tract. Probably 668 00:40:56,440 --> 00:41:02,560 Speaker 1: one of them's the gonads, which they're hermaphroditic, which allows 669 00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:06,120 Speaker 1: them to reproduce a sexually or sexually, which is handy 670 00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:09,640 Speaker 1: because if you're basically living your life as an immobile 671 00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:13,040 Speaker 1: rock and you happen to pick a neighborhood that no 672 00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:16,680 Speaker 1: other tuniquets set up shopping, you're out of luck. So 673 00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:19,560 Speaker 1: you gotta be like, well, it's just me and myself 674 00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:23,560 Speaker 1: and it's you know, I gotta gotta make babies somehow. 675 00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:27,360 Speaker 1: This is like a good challenge for me. As I 676 00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:31,040 Speaker 1: said before, I really try to see the like cool 677 00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:34,400 Speaker 1: smart aspects of every creature, and the farther away you 678 00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:37,040 Speaker 1: get from the human lifestyle and body plan, the more 679 00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:40,000 Speaker 1: of an exercise and imagination that can be UM. And 680 00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:44,120 Speaker 1: this guy is just like I have on faith um 681 00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:46,600 Speaker 1: to me in my heart. He is very smart, meat 682 00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:51,120 Speaker 1: rock talented, but how like what's his deal? Well, he's 683 00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:54,000 Speaker 1: seeing a meat rock is very impressive. But like what else? 684 00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:58,359 Speaker 1: I mean he or she and often often both like 685 00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:01,480 Speaker 1: he this this little thing it's like, well, it's not 686 00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:03,960 Speaker 1: always that little actually can get to be kind of 687 00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:09,960 Speaker 1: a sizeable rock, uh shape sort of thingy. It it 688 00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:12,560 Speaker 1: seems to like it's one of these weird things where 689 00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:15,520 Speaker 1: kind of a Benjamin Buttons because it starts out life 690 00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:18,760 Speaker 1: with much more brain power, much more of a nervous 691 00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:22,560 Speaker 1: system that it sort of ends up at. So maybe 692 00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:25,640 Speaker 1: that's that was the good decision, was getting rid of 693 00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:29,680 Speaker 1: getting rid of its ability to think, and yeah, investing 694 00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:32,359 Speaker 1: it all into the ability to like suck food in 695 00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:35,440 Speaker 1: and filter it out and just live good life as 696 00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:38,479 Speaker 1: a little gray rock. Maybe that's maybe that was that's 697 00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:41,880 Speaker 1: the wisdom the whole the whole time. Yeah, good to 698 00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:48,839 Speaker 1: learn front. That's a really good point. M So one 699 00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:53,560 Speaker 1: of my favorite of the sort of articles that you're 700 00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:59,319 Speaker 1: right are on these mysterious glowing animals that keep popping up, 701 00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:02,839 Speaker 1: and it is something that I've been falling a little 702 00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:06,000 Speaker 1: bit on the podcast, and it's just it seems like 703 00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:09,160 Speaker 1: every month or two there's a new animal. They're like, 704 00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:16,040 Speaker 1: this one glows too. So we're talking about biofluorescence in mammals, 705 00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:19,120 Speaker 1: and there are a lot of animals that biofluoresce like 706 00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:26,600 Speaker 1: reptiles and arthropods and marine animals, but no, like seeing 707 00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:32,759 Speaker 1: biofluorescence in mammals is or it was up until recently, 708 00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:36,400 Speaker 1: very unexpected. Can I just give a little breakdown of 709 00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:39,120 Speaker 1: the inferences between these kinds of things. Yeah, So there's 710 00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:41,880 Speaker 1: a couple of different kinds of of glowing when it 711 00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:44,560 Speaker 1: comes to animals. Um. So the one that we're talking 712 00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:48,480 Speaker 1: about right now that has been observed in mammals recently 713 00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:51,200 Speaker 1: and then before that in amphibians and some reptiles is 714 00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:55,439 Speaker 1: is UV fluorescence. So when you put these animals under 715 00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:59,280 Speaker 1: a UV light or expose them too strong UV light, um, 716 00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:05,280 Speaker 1: they have mints or other chemicals or molecules in there 717 00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:09,319 Speaker 1: for or their you know, carapaces or wherever. That kind 718 00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:13,719 Speaker 1: of transfer forum the light that's being absorbed into a 719 00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:17,040 Speaker 1: different color of light and admit it within the visible spectrum. 720 00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:18,879 Speaker 1: So it's like if you are at like a black 721 00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:22,239 Speaker 1: light party and you have a glow stick or you 722 00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:24,520 Speaker 1: have like a white T shirt. Your white T shirt 723 00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:26,680 Speaker 1: is doing that same thing. It's like taking in light 724 00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:28,799 Speaker 1: that's invisible to you and emitting it as like a 725 00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:31,000 Speaker 1: really bright blue color that you can see. So that's 726 00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:33,120 Speaker 1: what those animals are doing, and then a lot of 727 00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:36,640 Speaker 1: the underwater glowing from marine creatures, like marine creatures are 728 00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:39,879 Speaker 1: much better at actually creating their own light. Yeah, which 729 00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:45,719 Speaker 1: is which is a bioluminescence not biofluoresce. Yeah, so there's 730 00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:48,920 Speaker 1: two different kinds. Um, we're talking about biofluorescence, and some 731 00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:51,759 Speaker 1: people argue that we shouldn't call it biofluorescence because it's 732 00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:55,560 Speaker 1: not like a living property, it's like a material property. 733 00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:58,200 Speaker 1: But I think it's okay because they're talking about a 734 00:44:58,239 --> 00:45:01,480 Speaker 1: material property in a living things. Yeah, it's really it's 735 00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:06,000 Speaker 1: really wild. Yeah, I mean yeah, so so marine life, 736 00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:09,759 Speaker 1: you're right, absolutely right, Like there's a lot of bioluminescence, 737 00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:12,520 Speaker 1: So that that's the kind of thing you see in 738 00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:18,880 Speaker 1: angler fish or zooplankton, uh, diatoms sometimes um or or 739 00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:25,040 Speaker 1: even like things like fox fire fungus will bioluminous. I 740 00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:30,680 Speaker 1: think that's the action for bioluminous but um but that 741 00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:34,719 Speaker 1: is where the glow is produced by a chemical reaction 742 00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:41,759 Speaker 1: and it is visible with the naked human eye. Typically biofluorescence, 743 00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:47,520 Speaker 1: like you mentioned, is actually the animal skin or fur 744 00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:49,960 Speaker 1: or whatever, or it doesn't have to be an animal 745 00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:55,040 Speaker 1: can even be minerals or plants absorbing UV light and 746 00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:58,359 Speaker 1: then re emitting it at a different wavelength. And we 747 00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:02,239 Speaker 1: can only see that when we are basically pumping in 748 00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:06,920 Speaker 1: uh UV light and then seeing it re emitted in 749 00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:11,279 Speaker 1: a longer wavelength than it was originally. And there there 750 00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:14,319 Speaker 1: are also actually, to even get more confusing, there are 751 00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:20,520 Speaker 1: marine animals that bio fluoresce and so bioluminous. Uh So, 752 00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:25,359 Speaker 1: sharks do not are not bioluminescent, They don't provide their 753 00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:30,319 Speaker 1: own chemical reaction that makes them glow, but they do biofluoress, 754 00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:34,279 Speaker 1: so they will glow under UV light. And there's some 755 00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:37,880 Speaker 1: debate about like what this does, like is sharks are 756 00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:45,279 Speaker 1: sharks using this social communication? Um. But even stranger is 757 00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:49,480 Speaker 1: the fact that we're just finding more and more mammals 758 00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:54,279 Speaker 1: who biofluoress, which you know, a reminder that is the 759 00:46:54,440 --> 00:46:59,000 Speaker 1: UV light thing. So there is an ever growing list. 760 00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:01,879 Speaker 1: I'm just gonna go through, uh some of the ones 761 00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:05,359 Speaker 1: that I have compiled. Uh So, one of the more 762 00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:09,920 Speaker 1: recent ones is the spring hair, which you just wrote 763 00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:13,920 Speaker 1: about in the New York Times, which has maybe one 764 00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:17,200 Speaker 1: of the coolest patterns of biofluorescence because they seems to 765 00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:20,839 Speaker 1: like be these orange and pink glowing swirls like some 766 00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:24,840 Speaker 1: kind of alice in Wonderland creature. Yeah, it's like a pokemon. 767 00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:28,839 Speaker 1: I think they're really cool. That's my favorite one too. 768 00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:31,080 Speaker 1: That's the most recent one that's been sort of like 769 00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:34,600 Speaker 1: officially described. It's mostly one research group that's really digging 770 00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:37,800 Speaker 1: into this right now, although even like people from zoos 771 00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:40,880 Speaker 1: and people in their backyards are doing some like less 772 00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:44,279 Speaker 1: rigorous experimentation with it or exploration with it. But the 773 00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:47,000 Speaker 1: spring hair is amazing and the patchiness of the pattern 774 00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:49,920 Speaker 1: is really cool because, like when you're talking about a 775 00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:53,960 Speaker 1: material property, people who don't think that. The question for 776 00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:56,000 Speaker 1: a lot of people is like does this fluorescence have 777 00:47:56,080 --> 00:47:59,760 Speaker 1: any utility for the animal? Like can the animals doesn't 778 00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:02,640 Speaker 1: help the animals see each other or actually like see 779 00:48:02,680 --> 00:48:05,239 Speaker 1: each other less well, or be seen by predators less well, 780 00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:08,120 Speaker 1: because you can imagine like if your fur is absorbing 781 00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:10,920 Speaker 1: UV light and then emitting it at a different wavelength, 782 00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:13,239 Speaker 1: like maybe you're actually hiding from a predator that can 783 00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:16,560 Speaker 1: see UV light and would otherwise see this light reflected 784 00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:19,120 Speaker 1: off of you. Um, so it could be actually like 785 00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:23,120 Speaker 1: a camouflage mechanism. But people really argue about whether or 786 00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:25,799 Speaker 1: not that's true. And the thing about the spring hair 787 00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:29,880 Speaker 1: having like a patchy pattern is that some of like 788 00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:33,640 Speaker 1: the hair is not um different in other ways, right, 789 00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:37,640 Speaker 1: like why would some of the hairs be fluorescing and 790 00:48:37,719 --> 00:48:40,799 Speaker 1: some of them not if it was just the I 791 00:48:40,960 --> 00:48:46,680 Speaker 1: are the h I are on, Yeah, the fur is 792 00:48:46,719 --> 00:48:48,920 Speaker 1: all the same, and so if the pattern is different 793 00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:50,920 Speaker 1: but the fur is otherwise the same, then maybe the 794 00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:53,399 Speaker 1: pattern does have some sort of utility or else, like 795 00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:55,920 Speaker 1: why would it be there. So that's really exciting to me. 796 00:48:56,000 --> 00:49:00,840 Speaker 1: And different hairs h A R E have different pattern um. 797 00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:04,759 Speaker 1: That is really Yeah, that is so cool and it's 798 00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:06,960 Speaker 1: it kind of makes me think of sort of the 799 00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:10,760 Speaker 1: the shark biofluorescence, where they also have these different patterns. 800 00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:14,759 Speaker 1: So uh. Some researchers are wondering if this is a 801 00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:18,080 Speaker 1: social thing, like a way to identify different individuals, But 802 00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:22,239 Speaker 1: it's hard to know because we would first that they 803 00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:24,960 Speaker 1: must be able to actually see it. And I think 804 00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:27,720 Speaker 1: there's some evidence that shark guys are able to see 805 00:49:28,320 --> 00:49:31,640 Speaker 1: uh UV light, but I don't think we know. We 806 00:49:31,880 --> 00:49:35,520 Speaker 1: don't necessarily know about the spring hair yet. UM, which 807 00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:38,719 Speaker 1: by the way, is an absolutely adorable animal. Spring hair 808 00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:41,719 Speaker 1: is a it's a large rodent that looks like you 809 00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:46,960 Speaker 1: crossed a kangaroo with a mouse. And uh they and 810 00:49:47,040 --> 00:49:51,800 Speaker 1: they actually live in uh the southern tip of Africa, 811 00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:54,920 Speaker 1: so uh, they are not a marsupial, but they do 812 00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:59,080 Speaker 1: kind of look like a marsupial um. But what I mean, 813 00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:01,520 Speaker 1: that's one of the weird things though about these glowing animals. 814 00:50:01,560 --> 00:50:03,600 Speaker 1: And I don't know if this is just an artifact 815 00:50:03,760 --> 00:50:06,799 Speaker 1: of the way the research is going, like are we 816 00:50:06,880 --> 00:50:11,080 Speaker 1: testing this on more marsupials and monotreams or something, because 817 00:50:11,120 --> 00:50:13,799 Speaker 1: it seems like a lot of these animals that are 818 00:50:14,760 --> 00:50:21,080 Speaker 1: biofluorescing are either monotreams meaning like platypuses or kidnas, or 819 00:50:21,280 --> 00:50:30,760 Speaker 1: are um marsupials like wombats, Tasmanian devils, bilbies, possums, bandicoots. 820 00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:34,000 Speaker 1: Just yeah, it's it's so strange. I can I can 821 00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:36,360 Speaker 1: answer at least part of that question. The flipping answer 822 00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:39,080 Speaker 1: is that Australia is really weird. All the animals in 823 00:50:39,120 --> 00:50:41,080 Speaker 1: Australia are really weird. I don't know what they're getting 824 00:50:41,120 --> 00:50:43,880 Speaker 1: up to at any given five um. But that's that's 825 00:50:43,920 --> 00:50:47,120 Speaker 1: that's not my real answer, which is that, um, the 826 00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:50,000 Speaker 1: group that is studying this really rigorously thinks that the 827 00:50:50,080 --> 00:50:52,520 Speaker 1: things that these animals have in common so far are 828 00:50:52,560 --> 00:50:57,440 Speaker 1: that they are like crepuscular nocturnal, so they're active at 829 00:50:57,560 --> 00:50:59,400 Speaker 1: night and in the evening and at dawn, which is 830 00:50:59,440 --> 00:51:01,880 Speaker 1: like also a time when the light conditions are different 831 00:51:01,880 --> 00:51:05,000 Speaker 1: obviously than during the day. UM, And that they're not 832 00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:09,000 Speaker 1: predators like their their prey animals mostly or at least 833 00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:12,440 Speaker 1: they have predators. So that kind of also supports the 834 00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:16,080 Speaker 1: idea that maybe they are using this to hide somehow. UM. 835 00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:20,360 Speaker 1: The Australia thing is because so outside of that group 836 00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:23,680 Speaker 1: that is doing like a little bit of more rigorous experimentation, 837 00:51:23,719 --> 00:51:26,160 Speaker 1: there are places that have done just sort of like 838 00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:28,040 Speaker 1: shine a black light all around in the museum and 839 00:51:28,080 --> 00:51:30,799 Speaker 1: see what happens. And one of those people, one of 840 00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:34,000 Speaker 1: those groups was an Australian museum that did a lot 841 00:51:34,040 --> 00:51:37,600 Speaker 1: of light shining on their like taxidermed bilbies and stuff 842 00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:40,080 Speaker 1: and found a lot of glowing. But it hasn't been 843 00:51:40,560 --> 00:51:45,840 Speaker 1: sort of rigorously um verified. So there's clues that maybe 844 00:51:45,880 --> 00:51:48,359 Speaker 1: these Australian mammals all have this, but it hasn't really 845 00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:50,759 Speaker 1: been shown yet. The ones that have it has been 846 00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:55,680 Speaker 1: shown for um more definitively are platypus, the flying squirrel, 847 00:51:55,800 --> 00:51:58,880 Speaker 1: or at least um some species of flying squirrel, some 848 00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:03,520 Speaker 1: species of a possum. Yes, and the spring hair. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 849 00:52:03,560 --> 00:52:06,279 Speaker 1: it's I think this is so interesting, and it's one 850 00:52:06,280 --> 00:52:08,960 Speaker 1: of those things where once you kind of open up 851 00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:13,120 Speaker 1: that Pandora's box of shining black lights on mammals to 852 00:52:13,160 --> 00:52:15,080 Speaker 1: see which one of them glows, it's like, well, we 853 00:52:15,120 --> 00:52:17,719 Speaker 1: have to keep going until we've tested it on every 854 00:52:17,760 --> 00:52:22,480 Speaker 1: animal because it could be like we may be seeing 855 00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:27,200 Speaker 1: some pattern, but until we know which animals do this, 856 00:52:27,360 --> 00:52:29,120 Speaker 1: it's like, well, it could be that we just haven't 857 00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:33,040 Speaker 1: we haven't shown black lights on on enough animals. And 858 00:52:33,239 --> 00:52:35,640 Speaker 1: I feel like one of the difficulties is you can't 859 00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:38,520 Speaker 1: just walk up to a nocturnal animal with a black 860 00:52:38,600 --> 00:52:40,560 Speaker 1: light and like, could you hold still? Well, I see 861 00:52:40,600 --> 00:52:43,200 Speaker 1: if you're glowing, because they're not gonna they're not going 862 00:52:43,239 --> 00:52:45,440 Speaker 1: to react kindly to that. In fact, it seems like 863 00:52:45,480 --> 00:52:48,280 Speaker 1: a lot of the tests are either done on already 864 00:52:48,320 --> 00:52:52,200 Speaker 1: dead animals that have been taxidermine or people just going 865 00:52:52,360 --> 00:52:55,200 Speaker 1: out to the roads at night and shining a black 866 00:52:55,280 --> 00:53:00,680 Speaker 1: light on roadkill, which I love it, but it's one 867 00:53:00,680 --> 00:53:04,520 Speaker 1: of the more questionable activities you're me as a researcher. 868 00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:08,480 Speaker 1: I feel like if a police officer stopped you and 869 00:53:08,520 --> 00:53:10,759 Speaker 1: you're it's like, well what are you doing, It's like, oh, well, 870 00:53:10,800 --> 00:53:13,239 Speaker 1: I just you know, I'm shotting this black light on 871 00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:15,279 Speaker 1: a road kill to see if you know some of 872 00:53:15,280 --> 00:53:17,880 Speaker 1: them glow. You need a cover story. You're getting arrested 873 00:53:17,880 --> 00:53:20,280 Speaker 1: for that. But sure, I like the spring hair study 874 00:53:20,360 --> 00:53:22,120 Speaker 1: because they I don't think they could do this with 875 00:53:22,160 --> 00:53:25,400 Speaker 1: the platypus one, but for that one, they were able to, um, 876 00:53:25,520 --> 00:53:28,200 Speaker 1: go to a zoo and find some spring hairs and 877 00:53:28,280 --> 00:53:31,600 Speaker 1: like give them peanuts and take pictures of them. Um. 878 00:53:31,640 --> 00:53:33,640 Speaker 1: So you've got all these really cute, like little model 879 00:53:33,680 --> 00:53:36,920 Speaker 1: posts of the very passive, beautiful glowing springares eating a 880 00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:42,600 Speaker 1: peanut yea, rather than these poor mangled road kill glowing 881 00:53:42,680 --> 00:53:49,160 Speaker 1: hands that totally it's a smushed, smushed platypus that that 882 00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:52,360 Speaker 1: glows a beautiful color. Um. But just to kind of 883 00:53:52,719 --> 00:53:56,439 Speaker 1: give everyone a sense of the magnitude of how many 884 00:53:56,480 --> 00:54:00,440 Speaker 1: of these animals have shown some signs of biofluorescence UM 885 00:54:00,520 --> 00:54:04,160 Speaker 1: and what they look like. Uh, here here's a probably 886 00:54:04,200 --> 00:54:08,479 Speaker 1: in complete list I've compiled of who's glowing and what 887 00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:11,640 Speaker 1: they kind of look like. So, uh, sort of bluish 888 00:54:11,760 --> 00:54:15,400 Speaker 1: green glow all over their bodies. It seems like platypus 889 00:54:15,640 --> 00:54:21,000 Speaker 1: uh and wombat maybe weakly bright white glowing spines seems 890 00:54:21,040 --> 00:54:25,920 Speaker 1: to happen with a kidneas Tasmanian devils, which are interesting 891 00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:30,880 Speaker 1: because they are now I they may have some predators, 892 00:54:30,880 --> 00:54:35,839 Speaker 1: but they're mostly the predator themselves and they get into 893 00:54:35,880 --> 00:54:39,280 Speaker 1: conflicts with each other, but not as much with other animals. 894 00:54:39,280 --> 00:54:42,560 Speaker 1: But they do have seem to have some biofluorescence, especially 895 00:54:42,600 --> 00:54:47,279 Speaker 1: around their faces um which kind of it's like they 896 00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:53,799 Speaker 1: have like blue highlighted features. Uh. Flying squirrels tend to 897 00:54:53,840 --> 00:54:56,680 Speaker 1: have glowing underbellies. So there are a few species of 898 00:54:56,719 --> 00:54:59,520 Speaker 1: flying squirrels that seem to biofluoresce and they have these 899 00:54:59,560 --> 00:55:04,279 Speaker 1: like p glowing under belly which is adorable. Greater bilbies 900 00:55:04,600 --> 00:55:08,680 Speaker 1: seem to have glowing white ears, and then ghost bats 901 00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:14,200 Speaker 1: are very appropriately named, seemed to have glowing yellow wings. Again, 902 00:55:14,320 --> 00:55:16,839 Speaker 1: just to reiterate, this is all under UV light, so 903 00:55:16,880 --> 00:55:20,840 Speaker 1: we can't see this with the naked eye um striped 904 00:55:20,920 --> 00:55:26,200 Speaker 1: possum may have some sort of highlighter pink glowing abilities, 905 00:55:26,400 --> 00:55:30,000 Speaker 1: and crefts gliders, which are sort of like a sugar 906 00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:33,880 Speaker 1: glider or flying squirrel in appearance, seem to have glowing 907 00:55:34,400 --> 00:55:37,319 Speaker 1: blue bellies, which I think is interesting because you have 908 00:55:37,440 --> 00:55:41,120 Speaker 1: the flying squirrels which have glowing pink bellies, and then 909 00:55:41,160 --> 00:55:45,359 Speaker 1: another glider and its belly glows blue um, and then 910 00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:48,719 Speaker 1: these I saw some indication that they do glow, but 911 00:55:48,760 --> 00:55:52,200 Speaker 1: I couldn't find like what color they glow. But long 912 00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:58,480 Speaker 1: nosed bandicoots anti chinas and tree kangaroos maybe with a 913 00:55:58,600 --> 00:56:03,640 Speaker 1: big maybe there's like a really old um observation of 914 00:56:03,680 --> 00:56:07,160 Speaker 1: tree kangaroos. I don't think they've like replicated that, partially 915 00:56:07,200 --> 00:56:11,880 Speaker 1: because tree kangaroos are very very very rare, and I 916 00:56:11,920 --> 00:56:15,040 Speaker 1: think like, weren't they recently like thought to have been 917 00:56:15,760 --> 00:56:18,200 Speaker 1: They were thought to have been very completely extinct and 918 00:56:18,200 --> 00:56:22,080 Speaker 1: then like recently they kind of found some wild population 919 00:56:22,200 --> 00:56:24,480 Speaker 1: or am I getting that confused with another animal? Oh? 920 00:56:24,480 --> 00:56:26,560 Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm not up on my tree kangaroos, 921 00:56:26,600 --> 00:56:28,920 Speaker 1: but I hope they're okay, you're not to date on 922 00:56:29,000 --> 00:56:33,400 Speaker 1: your tree kangaroo trivia. Yeah, No, there there are there 923 00:56:33,400 --> 00:56:36,560 Speaker 1: are certain species of tree kangaroos which were thought to 924 00:56:36,800 --> 00:56:40,880 Speaker 1: have been extinct up until and that was the Wanda 925 00:56:40,920 --> 00:56:47,120 Speaker 1: Boy tree kangaroo. Um. So yeah, it's they're elusive, so 926 00:56:47,160 --> 00:56:49,879 Speaker 1: we don't know, we don't know they're glowing secrets. But yeah, 927 00:56:49,880 --> 00:56:53,080 Speaker 1: it's just it's it's wild to me how there are 928 00:56:53,200 --> 00:56:57,080 Speaker 1: so many animals. That's like, you know, we've never tried 929 00:56:57,239 --> 00:56:59,920 Speaker 1: shining a black We've never taken these animals to array 930 00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:03,560 Speaker 1: wave in their lives, and so we don't know if 931 00:57:03,600 --> 00:57:07,239 Speaker 1: they glow like someone at Cotchella under a black light. 932 00:57:08,000 --> 00:57:12,840 Speaker 1: So there's really only one solution, which is to do 933 00:57:13,000 --> 00:57:16,440 Speaker 1: like a sort of Noah's Ark style rave. Yeah, yeah, 934 00:57:16,760 --> 00:57:18,960 Speaker 1: one pair of every species in the same place, and 935 00:57:19,040 --> 00:57:21,840 Speaker 1: we just go for it exactly and everybody gets like 936 00:57:21,880 --> 00:57:27,600 Speaker 1: a wrist band since yeah, the most exclusive rave in 937 00:57:27,640 --> 00:57:33,120 Speaker 1: the world, the Noah's are Grave. I love that. But yeah, 938 00:57:33,200 --> 00:57:36,160 Speaker 1: it is really curious and as far as I know, 939 00:57:36,240 --> 00:57:38,120 Speaker 1: and please correct me if I'm wrong, care, but we 940 00:57:38,680 --> 00:57:43,040 Speaker 1: still don't know exactly why they glow like this. The 941 00:57:43,040 --> 00:57:47,120 Speaker 1: the answer has yet to been definitively proven or even 942 00:57:47,160 --> 00:57:50,800 Speaker 1: thoroughly studied. Yeah, nobody really knows, and a lot of 943 00:57:50,800 --> 00:57:54,000 Speaker 1: people argue that there couldn't possibly be a reason. Yeah, 944 00:57:54,200 --> 00:57:57,800 Speaker 1: it's actually it's one of my favorite types of scientific question, 945 00:57:57,840 --> 00:58:01,400 Speaker 1: which is the like really st eric one that still 946 00:58:01,600 --> 00:58:06,160 Speaker 1: inspires ferocious angry debate. Yes, I love it when biologists 947 00:58:06,160 --> 00:58:09,840 Speaker 1: get mad. I know, it's really fun. People have. Often 948 00:58:09,880 --> 00:58:13,440 Speaker 1: the people who you know, discover this have maybe a 949 00:58:13,440 --> 00:58:17,080 Speaker 1: bit of a vested interest in it being um having 950 00:58:17,120 --> 00:58:19,120 Speaker 1: some sort of use, although of course they're also a 951 00:58:19,200 --> 00:58:21,479 Speaker 1: rigorous scientists and they want to prove it for sure. 952 00:58:22,040 --> 00:58:24,760 Speaker 1: So often I'll talk to the authors of the papers 953 00:58:24,760 --> 00:58:26,280 Speaker 1: and they'll have a bunch of theories, and then I'll 954 00:58:26,280 --> 00:58:29,000 Speaker 1: talk to somebody outside and they'll say, like, no way, 955 00:58:29,160 --> 00:58:31,560 Speaker 1: you know, or we have to do so much more 956 00:58:31,560 --> 00:58:34,400 Speaker 1: work to even get close to that. But people have 957 00:58:34,440 --> 00:58:36,440 Speaker 1: come up with some really good theories. What are some 958 00:58:36,520 --> 00:58:39,720 Speaker 1: of those theories that you've heard without you know, this 959 00:58:39,800 --> 00:58:42,160 Speaker 1: is clearly we don't know yet whether any of these 960 00:58:42,160 --> 00:58:46,320 Speaker 1: are true without further study totally. So UM. One of 961 00:58:46,360 --> 00:58:49,080 Speaker 1: the ones is what I mentioned before, UM, in terms 962 00:58:49,080 --> 00:58:52,960 Speaker 1: of hiding from predators through camouflage, so making themselves actually 963 00:58:53,280 --> 00:58:57,640 Speaker 1: sort of counterintuitively less visible because obviously, like if you 964 00:58:57,720 --> 00:59:00,680 Speaker 1: saw a platypus. Even in the moonlight, you wouldn't see 965 00:59:00,680 --> 00:59:03,080 Speaker 1: it glowing. It would just look like a normal platypus, 966 00:59:03,160 --> 00:59:05,840 Speaker 1: unless you happen to have a black light, because as 967 00:59:05,840 --> 00:59:09,640 Speaker 1: you mentioned, you were a freaky researcher looking for kill 968 00:59:09,720 --> 00:59:12,480 Speaker 1: with a black light. UM So, I think one of 969 00:59:12,480 --> 00:59:14,880 Speaker 1: the kind of confusing things that you have to remember 970 00:59:14,880 --> 00:59:17,080 Speaker 1: when you're reading studies like this is like the pictures 971 00:59:17,360 --> 00:59:21,160 Speaker 1: that we show to um like demonstrate the phenomenon, that's 972 00:59:21,200 --> 00:59:23,520 Speaker 1: not what you would see in real life without a 973 00:59:23,520 --> 00:59:26,360 Speaker 1: black light, not what another platypus would see. So you 974 00:59:26,440 --> 00:59:28,000 Speaker 1: kind of have to like move one step beyond that 975 00:59:28,040 --> 00:59:30,560 Speaker 1: and think about, um, okay, so what what another platypus 976 00:59:30,560 --> 00:59:33,280 Speaker 1: see or what would a platypus predator see? And a 977 00:59:33,280 --> 00:59:36,240 Speaker 1: lot of predators yet can see UV light much better 978 00:59:36,280 --> 00:59:39,640 Speaker 1: than people can, and so it's possible that a platypus 979 00:59:40,320 --> 00:59:43,000 Speaker 1: that would normally be reflecting this UV light so that 980 00:59:43,040 --> 00:59:46,360 Speaker 1: it was visible, is instead absorbing it and transmitting a 981 00:59:46,400 --> 00:59:48,800 Speaker 1: different frequency, so the predator actually maybe can see it 982 00:59:48,840 --> 00:59:51,439 Speaker 1: a little bit worse. So that's one possibility. It's sort 983 00:59:51,480 --> 00:59:55,680 Speaker 1: of like the wearing the black turtleneck in a heist movie. 984 00:59:55,840 --> 00:59:59,840 Speaker 1: Because black will absorb light, and so you know, when 985 00:59:59,840 --> 01:00:02,680 Speaker 1: you try to shine a light off of a black turtleneck, 986 01:00:03,160 --> 01:00:05,680 Speaker 1: the museum guards don't see. And you can steal the 987 01:00:05,960 --> 01:00:08,960 Speaker 1: diamond and you can shine a black light on all 988 01:00:08,960 --> 01:00:13,720 Speaker 1: those specimens in the downstairs rooms. Yeah, or steal the 989 01:00:13,760 --> 01:00:16,000 Speaker 1: hook down or both if you're having a really good 990 01:00:16,240 --> 01:00:20,240 Speaker 1: because because these animals are often crepuscular or nocturnal, you're 991 01:00:20,280 --> 01:00:23,800 Speaker 1: not getting a huge amount of like UV light at 992 01:00:23,920 --> 01:00:26,840 Speaker 1: night at all. So it's that makes it more mysterious 993 01:00:26,840 --> 01:00:30,880 Speaker 1: where it's you know, they're not they're not absorbing huge 994 01:00:30,880 --> 01:00:33,760 Speaker 1: amounts of UV light. We can only see it because 995 01:00:33,800 --> 01:00:37,360 Speaker 1: we sort of pump them with this like little mini 996 01:00:37,680 --> 01:00:40,560 Speaker 1: UV light ray that makes them, you know, leak out 997 01:00:40,600 --> 01:00:43,760 Speaker 1: all these longer wavelengths of visible light that we can 998 01:00:43,760 --> 01:00:45,919 Speaker 1: see after we are just like pumping them chopped full 999 01:00:45,920 --> 01:00:50,280 Speaker 1: of UV light. Yeah. Another theorious that, like as we 1000 01:00:50,320 --> 01:00:54,520 Speaker 1: know you be, light can be kind of harmful cells um, 1001 01:00:54,560 --> 01:00:57,400 Speaker 1: and so some people think that maybe by sort of 1002 01:00:57,440 --> 01:01:01,120 Speaker 1: taking it in and transforming it, the fur is protecting 1003 01:01:01,200 --> 01:01:05,360 Speaker 1: like the vulnerable skin from being exposed to UV. Almost 1004 01:01:05,560 --> 01:01:09,200 Speaker 1: love that I would love some kind of like sunscreen 1005 01:01:09,280 --> 01:01:13,040 Speaker 1: that also biofluorescence, so I can like, during the day 1006 01:01:13,240 --> 01:01:16,400 Speaker 1: protect my red head, protect like my redhead skin from 1007 01:01:16,440 --> 01:01:18,240 Speaker 1: the sun, and then at night go to rave and 1008 01:01:18,240 --> 01:01:22,160 Speaker 1: it's like, instance, party all night, not get skin cancer 1009 01:01:22,240 --> 01:01:26,000 Speaker 1: during the day. One of the coolest examples that I've 1010 01:01:26,040 --> 01:01:28,280 Speaker 1: seen lately. I wrote this up like last month for 1011 01:01:28,320 --> 01:01:31,400 Speaker 1: the New York Times. UM was there's this these species 1012 01:01:31,400 --> 01:01:34,400 Speaker 1: of paper wasps and and uh oh I saw your 1013 01:01:34,480 --> 01:01:38,040 Speaker 1: article on that. I'm excited. Yeah, it's cool. Um. It's 1014 01:01:38,080 --> 01:01:40,880 Speaker 1: mostly the coolest ones are in Vietnam, but they're found 1015 01:01:40,880 --> 01:01:45,280 Speaker 1: in other places as well. And the larva of these wasps, 1016 01:01:45,320 --> 01:01:47,600 Speaker 1: you know, spin their own cocoons out of silk and 1017 01:01:47,720 --> 01:01:50,800 Speaker 1: kind of stay in there while they're a better morphosizing UM, 1018 01:01:50,840 --> 01:01:54,360 Speaker 1: and so are metamorphizing. And that they found that again 1019 01:01:54,400 --> 01:01:57,280 Speaker 1: by accident because of their ubi lights. UM found that 1020 01:01:57,400 --> 01:02:01,360 Speaker 1: the silk of the cocoon is really really strongly UV fluorescent, 1021 01:02:01,440 --> 01:02:05,520 Speaker 1: like way stronger than anything yet discovered in nature. It's like, 1022 01:02:05,560 --> 01:02:09,600 Speaker 1: that's bright green. It looks like I mean, it almost 1023 01:02:09,640 --> 01:02:12,520 Speaker 1: looks brighter than a glow stick to me. Yeah, it's 1024 01:02:12,560 --> 01:02:15,640 Speaker 1: super bright. It's almost like like if a tree was 1025 01:02:15,680 --> 01:02:19,360 Speaker 1: growing like a tennis ball. You're like, yeah, yeah, it's 1026 01:02:19,400 --> 01:02:22,640 Speaker 1: really cool. And uh. One of the researchers said to 1027 01:02:22,640 --> 01:02:25,439 Speaker 1: me that his theory and again like it's this really 1028 01:02:25,480 --> 01:02:29,680 Speaker 1: requires further testing, is that when the larvae are metamorphizing 1029 01:02:29,720 --> 01:02:33,920 Speaker 1: into wasps, they need you know, photo period signals. They 1030 01:02:33,920 --> 01:02:37,000 Speaker 1: need to know how long the days are because that 1031 01:02:37,120 --> 01:02:39,200 Speaker 1: helps them figure out like when it's time to do 1032 01:02:39,280 --> 01:02:42,880 Speaker 1: certain things. So they need to be have access to 1033 01:02:42,920 --> 01:02:46,560 Speaker 1: the light conditions of the forest, but they maybe want 1034 01:02:46,560 --> 01:02:49,880 Speaker 1: to be protected from UV. So by having these little 1035 01:02:49,880 --> 01:02:53,800 Speaker 1: glowing um, you know, not glowing but biofluorescent cocoon caps, 1036 01:02:53,840 --> 01:02:57,080 Speaker 1: maybe it's like keeping the UV out while still letting 1037 01:02:57,520 --> 01:03:02,080 Speaker 1: the light inside. So almost like you have of um, 1038 01:03:02,080 --> 01:03:05,360 Speaker 1: like I don't know, like a little led in your 1039 01:03:05,480 --> 01:03:08,880 Speaker 1: room that tells you when it's light out without exposing 1040 01:03:08,880 --> 01:03:10,520 Speaker 1: you to the light. Like maybe you're a vampire or 1041 01:03:10,560 --> 01:03:12,560 Speaker 1: something and you need to stay time and when it's 1042 01:03:12,600 --> 01:03:14,440 Speaker 1: not but you don't want to be exposed to the 1043 01:03:15,160 --> 01:03:19,760 Speaker 1: having a windows treated with some kind of like UV 1044 01:03:19,960 --> 01:03:24,000 Speaker 1: protection like you get on sunk totally yeah exactly, um, 1045 01:03:24,040 --> 01:03:27,120 Speaker 1: and so looks really fluorescent, but to them it's like 1046 01:03:27,120 --> 01:03:31,280 Speaker 1: a protective but information giving yeah, which is really cool, 1047 01:03:31,480 --> 01:03:33,720 Speaker 1: which I think is it's like another one of these 1048 01:03:33,760 --> 01:03:36,840 Speaker 1: things that we have to we can't be so like 1049 01:03:37,640 --> 01:03:43,160 Speaker 1: you know, anthrocentric or anthropocentric, where we uh, we think 1050 01:03:43,200 --> 01:03:46,320 Speaker 1: that in terms of like, well, they're glowing to us 1051 01:03:46,360 --> 01:03:48,880 Speaker 1: when we flash the the the black light on it. 1052 01:03:48,960 --> 01:03:51,120 Speaker 1: So it's so it must be have something to do 1053 01:03:51,160 --> 01:03:55,120 Speaker 1: with the glowing nature of this that gives them an advantage, 1054 01:03:55,200 --> 01:03:58,880 Speaker 1: but could be completely unrelated to the fact that they 1055 01:03:58,920 --> 01:04:01,800 Speaker 1: they buy O fluoresce. It could have to do with 1056 01:04:01,920 --> 01:04:04,400 Speaker 1: like the way they absorb the UV light. It could 1057 01:04:04,400 --> 01:04:09,200 Speaker 1: be thermoregulation, uh, which is sometimes the case with like 1058 01:04:09,240 --> 01:04:13,400 Speaker 1: these There are these snakes that have this iridescence to 1059 01:04:13,480 --> 01:04:16,480 Speaker 1: their scales. It's beautiful and so you think, well, is 1060 01:04:16,520 --> 01:04:19,960 Speaker 1: this like, uh some kind of mate selection because it's 1061 01:04:19,960 --> 01:04:23,680 Speaker 1: so beautiful. Well, no, they don't care. Uh. It's probably 1062 01:04:23,800 --> 01:04:26,440 Speaker 1: more to do with the fact that structurally these scales 1063 01:04:26,440 --> 01:04:30,160 Speaker 1: are made so that they can absorb heat um better, 1064 01:04:30,240 --> 01:04:32,760 Speaker 1: such that they can thermoregulate, so not getting too cold 1065 01:04:32,760 --> 01:04:34,600 Speaker 1: and not getting too hot. So the fact that they 1066 01:04:34,680 --> 01:04:39,600 Speaker 1: look like magical fairy princess snakes is just incidental, But 1067 01:04:39,680 --> 01:04:43,800 Speaker 1: it's the it's the thermoregulation that's important. So something similar 1068 01:04:43,800 --> 01:04:46,720 Speaker 1: could be going on with these uv patterns where it 1069 01:04:46,760 --> 01:04:50,280 Speaker 1: could it could either be that it's helping them, you know, 1070 01:04:50,520 --> 01:04:54,480 Speaker 1: absorb uvy raise either for their benefit or to protect 1071 01:04:54,480 --> 01:04:57,280 Speaker 1: them from the harm, or you know, for some kind 1072 01:04:57,280 --> 01:05:03,040 Speaker 1: of thermoregulation, or it could be um could be completely incidental. 1073 01:05:03,160 --> 01:05:06,440 Speaker 1: So it could be that the structure of the the 1074 01:05:06,520 --> 01:05:11,200 Speaker 1: proteins and the fur that like our biofluorescing just happened 1075 01:05:11,240 --> 01:05:14,280 Speaker 1: to biofluoresce, but they are structured in such a way 1076 01:05:14,280 --> 01:05:18,040 Speaker 1: that makes the fur like more protective for the animal 1077 01:05:18,160 --> 01:05:23,160 Speaker 1: or healthier. And in evolutionary biology, this is typically referred 1078 01:05:23,160 --> 01:05:28,680 Speaker 1: to as an evolutionary spandrel, So it's when something happens 1079 01:05:28,680 --> 01:05:33,560 Speaker 1: in evolution like there's some structure or some trait and 1080 01:05:33,880 --> 01:05:39,320 Speaker 1: it is incidental. So it's a byproduct of other structures 1081 01:05:39,360 --> 01:05:43,440 Speaker 1: that are necessary for an animal's evolutionary survival. And I 1082 01:05:43,440 --> 01:05:46,120 Speaker 1: think it comes from architecture, which I know a great 1083 01:05:46,160 --> 01:05:48,880 Speaker 1: deal less about, but I think it's basically when you 1084 01:05:48,960 --> 01:05:53,440 Speaker 1: have an archway, you have like these places where the 1085 01:05:53,640 --> 01:05:56,760 Speaker 1: arch meets the wall, and so it's like this chunk 1086 01:05:56,800 --> 01:06:00,280 Speaker 1: of basically unused space. So architects it off and like 1087 01:06:00,720 --> 01:06:04,680 Speaker 1: decorate these these spandrels with designs, and then people would 1088 01:06:04,680 --> 01:06:07,960 Speaker 1: sometimes wonder like what is this, What is the structural 1089 01:06:08,040 --> 01:06:11,080 Speaker 1: purpose of this? And it's like, well, there's no structural purpose. 1090 01:06:11,320 --> 01:06:13,640 Speaker 1: It's just there because it has to be there because 1091 01:06:13,640 --> 01:06:17,040 Speaker 1: of the way the arch meets the wall, and so 1092 01:06:17,080 --> 01:06:22,720 Speaker 1: you might as well decorated as an architect. So yeah, 1093 01:06:22,840 --> 01:06:28,240 Speaker 1: so before we go, we have to answer the question 1094 01:06:28,440 --> 01:06:33,280 Speaker 1: from last week of guests who's talking? So every week 1095 01:06:33,480 --> 01:06:37,080 Speaker 1: I play a mystery animal sound and you the listener, 1096 01:06:37,160 --> 01:06:40,760 Speaker 1: and you the guests, try to guess, Hey, who's talking? 1097 01:06:41,000 --> 01:06:45,560 Speaker 1: Who the heck is that? And just as a reminder, 1098 01:06:45,800 --> 01:06:49,960 Speaker 1: last week's hint is that its name sounds like a 1099 01:06:50,040 --> 01:06:55,680 Speaker 1: collaboration between a biologist, a heavy metal band, and a hairdresser. 1100 01:07:04,560 --> 01:07:10,000 Speaker 1: Kind of sounds like a man drake or uh, scary baby. 1101 01:07:10,440 --> 01:07:13,280 Speaker 1: It's actually, yeah, I think I know exactly what it is. 1102 01:07:13,360 --> 01:07:16,200 Speaker 1: It's my cat peppercorn when she wants to go out ros. 1103 01:07:17,920 --> 01:07:21,720 Speaker 1: How did you know? How did you get into my 1104 01:07:21,760 --> 01:07:25,760 Speaker 1: house to record peppercorn? Yet? Well, do you have any 1105 01:07:25,760 --> 01:07:30,480 Speaker 1: guesses other than peppercorns? Okay, so you said a biologist, 1106 01:07:30,480 --> 01:07:33,400 Speaker 1: a metal band, and a hairdresser got together to name 1107 01:07:33,440 --> 01:07:37,720 Speaker 1: this thing. So it's probably like a bird with something 1108 01:07:37,760 --> 01:07:49,320 Speaker 1: weird on its head, but that's usually the answer. Um, 1109 01:07:49,520 --> 01:07:57,440 Speaker 1: this screaming mohawk parakeet is my god, you're you're so close. 1110 01:07:57,520 --> 01:08:01,120 Speaker 1: You're a little bit off by like the alum and 1111 01:08:02,080 --> 01:08:05,560 Speaker 1: actual animals, but in terms of the name, in terms 1112 01:08:05,560 --> 01:08:09,320 Speaker 1: of the actual name, you're very close. So this is 1113 01:08:09,400 --> 01:08:14,920 Speaker 1: actually the screaming Harry armadillo. Oh, what is an armadillo. 1114 01:08:15,400 --> 01:08:19,440 Speaker 1: It's an armadillo. So this is found in South America 1115 01:08:20,160 --> 01:08:23,960 Speaker 1: and it is indeed in armadillo. It is indeed Harry, 1116 01:08:24,160 --> 01:08:26,920 Speaker 1: and it does in fact scream as you just heard. 1117 01:08:27,479 --> 01:08:31,880 Speaker 1: If you pick one up, they start shrieking uh. And 1118 01:08:32,240 --> 01:08:34,840 Speaker 1: it is thought that this is sort of the like 1119 01:08:35,280 --> 01:08:41,000 Speaker 1: um car alarm effect because they're not really that social, 1120 01:08:41,360 --> 01:08:43,360 Speaker 1: so this is not thought to be a warning call 1121 01:08:43,479 --> 01:08:46,479 Speaker 1: to other individuals in its species, but it's thought to 1122 01:08:46,520 --> 01:08:49,680 Speaker 1: either startle predators when they pick them up, or to 1123 01:08:49,840 --> 01:08:53,080 Speaker 1: make a predator afraid that an even bigger predator is 1124 01:08:53,080 --> 01:08:56,400 Speaker 1: going to approach, which I think is a really interesting gambit. 1125 01:08:56,479 --> 01:08:59,479 Speaker 1: We've seen in a few prey animals where they will 1126 01:08:59,560 --> 01:09:03,479 Speaker 1: just make huge commotion and then that freaks out the predator. 1127 01:09:03,560 --> 01:09:05,960 Speaker 1: That's like, well, okay, I was trying to go in 1128 01:09:06,000 --> 01:09:09,360 Speaker 1: this sneakily, but if you're screaming like something bigger might 1129 01:09:09,400 --> 01:09:11,880 Speaker 1: come and actually eat me while I'm trying to eat you. 1130 01:09:13,240 --> 01:09:18,639 Speaker 1: So I think it worked on me because uh, it's 1131 01:09:18,760 --> 01:09:24,479 Speaker 1: just it's sounds like a demon baby m hmm. Yeah. No, 1132 01:09:24,640 --> 01:09:27,080 Speaker 1: I would definitely put it down if it did that. 1133 01:09:28,560 --> 01:09:32,599 Speaker 1: All right, And now onto this week's mystery animal sound. 1134 01:09:32,880 --> 01:09:36,320 Speaker 1: Here's a hint, not so fast. This isn't who you 1135 01:09:36,360 --> 01:09:42,040 Speaker 1: think it is, kar Do you have any guesses? This 1136 01:09:42,120 --> 01:09:46,120 Speaker 1: is a very sneaky and tricky one. So it sounds 1137 01:09:46,160 --> 01:09:50,320 Speaker 1: like that despite how it sounds, it's not an adorable 1138 01:09:50,360 --> 01:09:55,599 Speaker 1: small bird who will help me get dressed for the ball. Um, 1139 01:09:55,640 --> 01:10:00,120 Speaker 1: So no, I don't. I have no idea. I I've 1140 01:10:00,160 --> 01:10:03,639 Speaker 1: been extremely sneaky with this one. I'm I almost feel 1141 01:10:03,640 --> 01:10:07,920 Speaker 1: a little mean about it, but I still keep my 1142 01:10:08,000 --> 01:10:12,240 Speaker 1: lips tightly sealed until next week when we reveal the answer. 1143 01:10:12,800 --> 01:10:15,600 Speaker 1: And if you out there listeners think you know what 1144 01:10:15,720 --> 01:10:17,840 Speaker 1: this is, you can write to me a Creature feature 1145 01:10:17,880 --> 01:10:21,600 Speaker 1: Pot at gmail dot com, Creature feature Pot on Instagram, 1146 01:10:21,720 --> 01:10:25,639 Speaker 1: or Creature feet Pot on Twitter. That's e E teeth. 1147 01:10:25,680 --> 01:10:30,439 Speaker 1: That is something very different. Um. But Karen, thank you 1148 01:10:30,680 --> 01:10:34,360 Speaker 1: so much for joining me today. Uh, and for giving 1149 01:10:34,400 --> 01:10:38,200 Speaker 1: all your wisdom and insight. Uh that usually I would 1150 01:10:38,240 --> 01:10:42,240 Speaker 1: have to go and read your articles to get Yeah, 1151 01:10:42,320 --> 01:10:44,720 Speaker 1: this is in some ways more efficient. In some ways 1152 01:10:44,800 --> 01:10:48,200 Speaker 1: probably a lot less efficient. But I really appreciate being 1153 01:10:48,240 --> 01:10:50,720 Speaker 1: invited on and I had a great time. Well where 1154 01:10:50,760 --> 01:10:54,160 Speaker 1: can people find all your awesome articles? And where can 1155 01:10:54,200 --> 01:10:57,000 Speaker 1: people find you online? Yeah? So I'm on Twitter at 1156 01:10:57,240 --> 01:11:00,720 Speaker 1: see j jimo that's ce j G. I A I 1157 01:11:01,280 --> 01:11:05,360 Speaker 1: m o um and then I right pretty frequently for 1158 01:11:05,439 --> 01:11:08,400 Speaker 1: The New York Times. And I'm working on this book 1159 01:11:08,400 --> 01:11:10,400 Speaker 1: for Alice Obscura that won't be up for a while, 1160 01:11:10,479 --> 01:11:12,360 Speaker 1: but when it is, I will tell you where you 1161 01:11:12,400 --> 01:11:16,800 Speaker 1: can get it. I'm excited for that. Uh. And of 1162 01:11:16,920 --> 01:11:18,800 Speaker 1: course I just told you where you can find the 1163 01:11:18,880 --> 01:11:21,840 Speaker 1: podcast online. You can find me online at Katie Golden 1164 01:11:21,880 --> 01:11:24,439 Speaker 1: on Twitter. I don't always tweet about animals, but when 1165 01:11:24,479 --> 01:11:29,519 Speaker 1: I do, it's they're really weird. Yeah, thank you so 1166 01:11:29,720 --> 01:11:31,920 Speaker 1: much for listening. If you're enjoying the show and you 1167 01:11:32,040 --> 01:11:36,519 Speaker 1: leave a rating and review, I will just be grateful 1168 01:11:36,720 --> 01:11:40,720 Speaker 1: forever and ever. I'll never forget it. I actually do 1169 01:11:40,840 --> 01:11:43,080 Speaker 1: read all the reviews and I really appreciate all of them, 1170 01:11:43,680 --> 01:11:46,160 Speaker 1: and thank you so much for to the Space Classics 1171 01:11:46,240 --> 01:11:49,800 Speaker 1: where they're super awesome. Song x Alumina Creature features a 1172 01:11:49,840 --> 01:11:52,720 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts like the 1173 01:11:52,800 --> 01:11:55,240 Speaker 1: one you just heard, visit the I Heart Radio app, 1174 01:11:55,240 --> 01:11:57,880 Speaker 1: Apple Podcast, or Hey guess what, I don't care. Where 1175 01:11:57,880 --> 01:12:00,720 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows. You can do it 1176 01:12:00,840 --> 01:12:02,760 Speaker 1: from inside of Meat Rock. See if I care, I 1177 01:12:02,800 --> 01:12:06,120 Speaker 1: don't judge you. See you next Wednesday. M