WEBVTT - 031624 Israel’s Response in Gaza with Ami Horowitz (Part 2) 0:00:00.720 --> 0:00:02.920 Keep on riding with us as we continue to broadcast 0:00:02.960 --> 0:00:05.320 the balance and defend the discourse from these hip hop 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:07.880 weekly studios. Welcome back to Civic Cipher. I am your host, 0:00:08.200 --> 0:00:10.280 Ramsey's job. Big shout out to my man c Ward, 0:00:10.520 --> 0:00:15.200 who is somewhere in South America trying to change the world, 0:00:15.400 --> 0:00:16.960 and I think we're all going to be a little 0:00:17.000 --> 0:00:19.279 bit better for it. Unfortunately, you couldn't be here with 0:00:19.720 --> 0:00:21.360 a dear friend of ours and a dear friend of 0:00:21.400 --> 0:00:24.960 the show of Amy Horwitz, who is come back today 0:00:25.000 --> 0:00:30.040 to help us with an update on the conflict going 0:00:30.080 --> 0:00:35.360 on in Palestine Israel Hamas war. And for those just 0:00:35.440 --> 0:00:38.680 joining us, Amy Horwitz is a fellow journalist. He is 0:00:38.720 --> 0:00:43.159 a man who has gone underground with Hamas and just 0:00:43.200 --> 0:00:45.600 a gorilla journalist who's on the ground, you know, getting 0:00:45.600 --> 0:00:49.800 people's opinions. A conservative journalist. It's important to point that 0:00:49.840 --> 0:00:55.320 out and over here we're decidedly not conservative folks in 0:00:55.360 --> 0:00:58.480 the same way, and we're going to continue a conversation 0:00:58.520 --> 0:01:00.680 that we've been having, so stick around for them. In 0:01:00.720 --> 0:01:03.920 the meantime, it's time to discuss Baba becoming a better ally. 0:01:04.000 --> 0:01:06.200 Baba and today's Baba sponsored by Friends of the movement. 0:01:06.319 --> 0:01:07.880 You can sign up for the free voter wallet from 0:01:07.959 --> 0:01:11.280 fotmglobal dot com just for black businesses and allied businesses 0:01:11.319 --> 0:01:13.520 as well as make an impact whether your spending. Again, 0:01:13.560 --> 0:01:17.360 that's fotmglobal dot com. Today we are going to shout 0:01:17.360 --> 0:01:25.200 out my jinf dot org, the most trusted name in 0:01:25.400 --> 0:01:31.080 Israeli donations. I want to disclose to you that I 0:01:31.080 --> 0:01:34.720 have done some research on this org and they do 0:01:35.560 --> 0:01:40.160 have a facet where they fund the IDF in terms 0:01:40.240 --> 0:01:42.959 of soldiers and protecting the soldiers and so forth. I 0:01:43.040 --> 0:01:45.000 need you to be aware of that this was given 0:01:45.000 --> 0:01:47.760 to me by a dear friend of mine, Michael Malice, 0:01:47.760 --> 0:01:50.160 who is a supporter of this cause. He is a 0:01:50.240 --> 0:01:53.800 Jewish man and a decades long friend of mine, and 0:01:53.920 --> 0:01:56.600 so I'm going to read this with you on his behalf. 0:01:56.920 --> 0:01:59.240 This is not an endorsement. This is just what we do. 0:01:59.360 --> 0:02:02.280 And today we're giving the microphone to our Jewish brothers 0:02:02.280 --> 0:02:04.520 and sisters. So since they're founding in nineteen oh one, 0:02:05.360 --> 0:02:10.040 Jewish National Fund USA USA's passion commitment envision for the 0:02:10.040 --> 0:02:12.079 future of Israel and the Jewish people has remained clear 0:02:12.080 --> 0:02:16.000 and unwavering. Charity Navigator and Better Business Bureau consistently at 0:02:16.000 --> 0:02:19.600 wore Jewish National Fund USA with their highest ratings indicating 0:02:19.600 --> 0:02:22.960 the organization's trustworthiness and fiscal responsibility. You can read more 0:02:22.960 --> 0:02:25.520 about their vision work and what makes them the leading 0:02:25.600 --> 0:02:30.240 organization supporting the land and the people of Israel. Excuse 0:02:30.280 --> 0:02:35.800 me at my dot JNF dot org. So again, this 0:02:35.880 --> 0:02:41.080 is not a personal endorsement, and I would not personally 0:02:41.120 --> 0:02:46.000 ever recommend anyone donate money to fund war. That's just 0:02:46.080 --> 0:02:47.840 not my way, It's not in my heart. But I 0:02:48.000 --> 0:02:50.240 was I asked a person that had more insight than me. 0:02:50.639 --> 0:02:53.200 This was what I was given, and I gave my 0:02:53.240 --> 0:02:55.760 word that I would share it. And so if this 0:02:55.880 --> 0:03:00.400 moves you, you have my dot JNF dot org to visit. Next. 0:03:00.440 --> 0:03:03.640 Now back to Ami, I left us off in the 0:03:03.639 --> 0:03:08.440 middle of some some sort of debunk or now heavily questioned, 0:03:10.520 --> 0:03:15.160 uh talking points that I want to get just kind 0:03:15.160 --> 0:03:16.880 of a response on. So I'll finish reading them the 0:03:16.880 --> 0:03:19.080 ones that you can speak to please, the ones that 0:03:19.120 --> 0:03:21.000 you don't feel are important. We'll just move on cause 0:03:21.000 --> 0:03:22.880 we still have a ton to cover. I suspect we 0:03:22.880 --> 0:03:27.160 won't get to all of it. Okay, so the forty 0:03:27.160 --> 0:03:30.520 beheaded babies. Obviously, that was something that everyone had to 0:03:30.520 --> 0:03:34.160 reel in. After the fact Hamas's main base being under 0:03:34.200 --> 0:03:39.640 the Al Shifa Hospital, the Associated Press UH found ultimately 0:03:39.680 --> 0:03:41.840 one room with a couple of metal cots in it 0:03:41.880 --> 0:03:43.720 that looked like it was out of use. The Washington 0:03:43.760 --> 0:03:47.160 posts that they found no evidence of a base. The 0:03:47.240 --> 0:03:52.320 Israeli Minish military sorry, found the Gaza Ministry of Health 0:03:52.360 --> 0:03:56.320 to be a reliable source of info. And you mentioned 0:03:56.440 --> 0:04:01.240 we spoke before today's meeting that this this information was 0:04:01.280 --> 0:04:04.760 not reliable. But when I researched the sources that you 0:04:04.880 --> 0:04:10.520 gave me and the resources that I was researching prior 0:04:10.560 --> 0:04:14.840 to that, it turned out that one source was slightly 0:04:14.880 --> 0:04:18.159 more credible left leaning than the source that you gave me, 0:04:18.200 --> 0:04:19.720 which was like I believe it was like the tablet 0:04:19.800 --> 0:04:23.600 or something like that. But the other source was science based, 0:04:23.720 --> 0:04:26.080 so it doesn't have a bias one way or the other, 0:04:26.360 --> 0:04:28.280 and it was green lit all the way down. And 0:04:28.360 --> 0:04:31.560 that source is the I have it right here, give 0:04:31.600 --> 0:04:39.000 me one second. The oh sorry, I have it in 0:04:39.200 --> 0:04:40.919 my email. I'm gonna grab it for you in one second. 0:04:40.960 --> 0:04:44.320 But so in terms of the numbers, of the people 0:04:44.320 --> 0:04:46.560 that have been killed, the twenty five thousand women and children, 0:04:46.600 --> 0:04:48.799 and so forth, the four out of the five hundreds. 0:04:48.800 --> 0:04:52.839 No, no, no, not twenty five thousands of the twenty 0:04:52.880 --> 0:04:55.240 one thousand dead. It is not twenty one thousand women 0:04:55.279 --> 0:04:56.120 and children were killed. 0:04:56.200 --> 0:04:59.600 What we have here thousand women and children. The number 0:04:59.680 --> 0:05:01.880 is much higher than that. So this is the number 0:05:01.920 --> 0:05:05.120 of women and people under the age of eighteen makes 0:05:05.160 --> 0:05:08.880 up twenty five thousand. The difference of adult men would 0:05:08.880 --> 0:05:11.159 make up the difference in the number of the dead total, 0:05:11.200 --> 0:05:13.279 which is above thirty thousand. This is based on the 0:05:13.360 --> 0:05:15.760 numbers from the most credible source that I've found just 0:05:15.839 --> 0:05:17.920 yet and against science based and in fact, I'll find 0:05:17.960 --> 0:05:19.839 it to find it for you and share it with you, 0:05:19.920 --> 0:05:26.240 just so that you have it here. It is the 0:05:26.240 --> 0:05:29.800 the lancet. The lancet is kind of a medical It's a. 0:05:31.320 --> 0:05:32.920 L I know the left of the lancet is which 0:05:32.920 --> 0:05:35.440 is highly bia sources. 0:05:35.520 --> 0:05:37.520 That's not what I found based on the media, and 0:05:37.560 --> 0:05:40.480 I use the same media. How can I point it good? 0:05:40.839 --> 0:05:43.359 Doesn't make any sense. How can the lancet know anything 0:05:43.360 --> 0:05:45.200 about how many people were killed in Gaza? This doesn't 0:05:45.200 --> 0:05:47.960 make any sense. They have to get their number from somewhere. 0:05:48.000 --> 0:05:51.040 There's only there are only two people who have any 0:05:51.120 --> 0:05:53.120 sense of what people are being killed, people on the 0:05:53.120 --> 0:05:54.839 ground in Gaza and these early military. 0:05:55.000 --> 0:05:57.680 So let me make sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so that's 0:05:57.920 --> 0:05:59.240 that's a great point. I'm glad you brought it up. 0:05:59.240 --> 0:06:02.440 So let me make sure that stated correctly. The Lancet 0:06:02.520 --> 0:06:06.440 is not saying that the numbers are accurate. They're saying 0:06:06.480 --> 0:06:10.039 they have found no evidence that the numbers have been inflated. 0:06:10.080 --> 0:06:12.920 So that is those are two different things, but it's 0:06:13.000 --> 0:06:16.320 not unlike that what you sent over from the Tablet, 0:06:16.360 --> 0:06:23.239 which again based on the same the same fact checking 0:06:23.279 --> 0:06:26.120 source that I use to determine media bias, and I 0:06:26.200 --> 0:06:28.040 use it for all of them. I use it for CNN, 0:06:28.120 --> 0:06:30.320 Fox News, I use it for the Lancet, I used 0:06:30.320 --> 0:06:31.840 it for the Tablet, I use it for everything that 0:06:32.160 --> 0:06:34.839 we used for today. So I use that as they 0:06:34.880 --> 0:06:37.520 define what center is, they define what credible is, and 0:06:37.600 --> 0:06:40.400 relative to every other source, I can use them as 0:06:40.400 --> 0:06:42.760 a guidepost. And so what I found based on what 0:06:42.920 --> 0:06:47.200 was sent over from you the Tablet thing is that, uh, 0:06:48.040 --> 0:06:50.840 that article that was suggesting that these numbers have somehow 0:06:50.880 --> 0:06:55.800 been inflated. What a lot of that article is also speculative. 0:06:55.880 --> 0:06:58.080 It wasn't based on data. It was just based on 0:06:58.279 --> 0:07:00.840 these numbers don't quite look right. Wasn't based on these 0:07:00.880 --> 0:07:02.040 numbers are factually wrong. 0:07:02.600 --> 0:07:06.000 Good statistical variability. And the math behind that. 0:07:06.120 --> 0:07:10.320 Is data is not necessarily data is data. Data is data. 0:07:10.760 --> 0:07:12.680 This is how many people died, this is how many 0:07:12.680 --> 0:07:16.200 people are We don't know. That's data, statistical variability. It 0:07:16.200 --> 0:07:20.120 could be an anomaly, it could be uh again, just 0:07:20.640 --> 0:07:22.840 something that people didn't expect to see. But it is 0:07:22.880 --> 0:07:25.960 not in any way a confirmation. And I suspect that 0:07:26.000 --> 0:07:29.720 coming from a source that is so questionable, so far 0:07:29.800 --> 0:07:37.440 right leaning, and so questionable with respect to the tablet, 0:07:38.080 --> 0:07:40.600 it absolutely is so So this is this is something 0:07:40.600 --> 0:07:42.400 that I looked up last night. But that's that's neither 0:07:42.440 --> 0:07:44.600 here nor there. Because we need right we do need 0:07:44.680 --> 0:07:48.080 right leaning media sources as well, because between the two 0:07:48.160 --> 0:07:49.960 somewhere we'll find the truth. So I'm not knocking them 0:07:50.000 --> 0:07:54.600 for that. Is there's pro Israel right leaning news source. However, 0:07:55.000 --> 0:08:00.200 they do have questionable uh they publish questionable are to 0:08:00.640 --> 0:08:04.320 articles and their data is not considered to be reliable 0:08:04.400 --> 0:08:06.679 across the board, not to the degree that the lance 0:08:06.680 --> 0:08:10.600 it is not to the agree. I'm sorry, please your response. 0:08:10.760 --> 0:08:13.480 No, no, I'm okay. I disagree. First of all, TABLET. 0:08:13.520 --> 0:08:14.920 I don't see it as a right wing right wing 0:08:14.960 --> 0:08:15.280 at all. 0:08:15.880 --> 0:08:18.080 The admitted you can. You could look it up on 0:08:18.120 --> 0:08:20.440 their Wikipedia page. You can look it up on their website. 0:08:20.600 --> 0:08:24.520 So I'd say, and the Lancet is absolutely not not 0:08:24.760 --> 0:08:28.360 UnBias source plans and at no point going, no point 0:08:28.400 --> 0:08:31.040 going in who's right, who's wrong, who's who's But let me, 0:08:31.120 --> 0:08:33.560 let me let let's put a let's let's put aside. Yeah, 0:08:33.920 --> 0:08:36.439 the numbers themselves. No, sorry, we'll deal the numbers. But 0:08:36.520 --> 0:08:40.760 let's assume that AMASS numbers. As dubious as that sounds, 0:08:40.760 --> 0:08:43.080 the belief coms number, let's assume their numbers are correct. 0:08:43.480 --> 0:08:49.320 Just assume it right, thirty thousand people roughly killed. Again, 0:08:49.440 --> 0:08:51.640 we have to devoid and both you and I have 0:08:51.720 --> 0:08:53.520 been emotional about this is an emotional thing, and it's 0:08:53.559 --> 0:08:57.120 totally normal to the emotional. But but I think ultimately 0:08:57.120 --> 0:09:01.280 you have to look at the data in context, and 0:09:01.360 --> 0:09:04.800 the context is actually kind of simple. Is if you 0:09:04.880 --> 0:09:08.800 look at the situation that Israel findslf in and you 0:09:08.880 --> 0:09:12.000 compare it to let's say, where what most people would 0:09:12.080 --> 0:09:14.880 argue was the most moral, ethical army on Earth today, 0:09:14.880 --> 0:09:18.880 which is NATO, and you compare them to how many 0:09:18.920 --> 0:09:24.880 civilians are killed versus militants in Afghanistan, which is a far, 0:09:25.280 --> 0:09:29.640 far easier place to conduct war in in terms of 0:09:29.720 --> 0:09:33.240 avoiding civilian casualties. And I think most people argue NATO 0:09:33.360 --> 0:09:37.040 tries to avoid civilian casualties. Their average is one militant 0:09:37.440 --> 0:09:41.000 or three civilians. It's almost static number that they've had 0:09:41.080 --> 0:09:44.840 for decades when they engage in war. And if you 0:09:45.120 --> 0:09:49.160 assuming you take Hamas's numbers, right, think both numbers as fact. 0:09:49.640 --> 0:09:52.439 The amount of how many Hamas militants have been killed, 0:09:52.880 --> 0:09:55.880 terrorists have been killed that Israel has calculated, and how 0:09:55.920 --> 0:09:59.080 many civilians have been killed. You're talking twelve ten to 0:09:59.200 --> 0:10:04.840 fourteen thousand and Hamas soldiers out of that thirty thousand civilians. 0:10:05.080 --> 0:10:08.120 So are suggesting that the Hamas soldiers are including people 0:10:08.160 --> 0:10:11.240 who are under the age of eighteen. Oh of course, okay, 0:10:11.360 --> 0:10:13.880 that's that's okay. I see that. That's not something that 0:10:13.920 --> 0:10:15.880 I delineated in myself. So I wanted to marry no. 0:10:16.280 --> 0:10:19.440 Fair enough, and and and normally when you're dealing with 0:10:19.480 --> 0:10:24.199 a military, you wouldn't because most kids don't fight wars, right, 0:10:24.360 --> 0:10:26.840 so you would assume that because you don't have fifteen 0:10:26.880 --> 0:10:31.000 year olds going and trying to kill people. But unfortunately, 0:10:31.080 --> 0:10:33.920 let me in this situation, you do so, right. But 0:10:34.000 --> 0:10:38.000 the point is is that you're talking roughly one point 0:10:38.240 --> 0:10:41.400 and one point five, so you have for every terrorist 0:10:41.440 --> 0:10:47.240 who's killed one point five, civilians are killed less than 0:10:47.240 --> 0:10:51.560 two one to two, which is an again to put 0:10:51.600 --> 0:10:56.160 in context, in the most difficult possible fighting environment that 0:10:56.280 --> 0:11:02.800 exists on planet Earth, densely urban warfare is specifically putting 0:11:02.840 --> 0:11:05.920 its own civilians as shields, which is not botherly not 0:11:06.000 --> 0:11:10.600 argued by anybody in that environment. Israel is roughly killing 0:11:10.760 --> 0:11:14.880 fifty percent less civilians than NATO. 0:11:15.760 --> 0:11:18.280 So let me so your point as well made. Let 0:11:18.280 --> 0:11:20.360 me let me make sure that I push back just 0:11:20.400 --> 0:11:22.959 a bit right here. So when we talk about the 0:11:23.400 --> 0:11:29.840 human shields, I think that that you're right when you 0:11:29.840 --> 0:11:32.320 say that. There's a lot of people who don't question that, right. 0:11:32.920 --> 0:11:35.120 But what I think that a lot of people who 0:11:35.160 --> 0:11:39.160 are talking about outside of the very decidedly pro Israel circles, 0:11:39.200 --> 0:11:42.640 which in my estimation is very insulated from criticism, very 0:11:42.640 --> 0:11:45.040 insulated from you know, there's there's laws on the books 0:11:45.040 --> 0:11:47.640 in Arizona that I've seen with these eyes. You cannot 0:11:47.880 --> 0:11:50.400 protest the nation state of Israel and enter into a 0:11:50.440 --> 0:11:54.760 government contract. Otherwise your contract will be dismantled or voided 0:11:54.800 --> 0:11:59.679 or whatever. I forget seen it myself, see it myself. 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:03.200 Want Okay, the words were, you can't criticize it as well, 0:12:03.320 --> 0:12:08.720 or you can't can't protest, you can't engage in BDS protest, Okay, 0:12:08.760 --> 0:12:10.560 I don't. I'm okay, I'm clarified. 0:12:10.559 --> 0:12:12.760 But in any of it. The point I'm making here 0:12:12.960 --> 0:12:17.679 is that again with with pro Israeli folks, they're very 0:12:17.720 --> 0:12:20.080 insulated from these types of criticisms. But what I would 0:12:20.160 --> 0:12:25.240 argue is that there are folks who look at this 0:12:25.640 --> 0:12:30.319 and say, well, that's just the justification that Israel would 0:12:30.360 --> 0:12:35.920 need to finally get this off right. The human shields thing, right, Oh, well, 0:12:35.960 --> 0:12:38.760 they're using the human shields. We mentioned the I believe 0:12:38.800 --> 0:12:42.040 it's the au It's in my notes, but it's the hospital, 0:12:42.640 --> 0:12:45.200 right that everyone was thinking, Okay, there's a military base, 0:12:45.240 --> 0:12:49.480 remember seeing the diagrams one room. This is from the 0:12:49.559 --> 0:12:51.720 a P. This isn't from Ramses, this isn't from Homy. 0:12:52.160 --> 0:12:53.800 This is there was one room they found with two 0:12:53.800 --> 0:12:55.040 cots in it. 0:12:55.280 --> 0:12:59.600 CNN, CNN had an entire crew go down there. This 0:12:59.720 --> 0:13:00.480 is just not true. 0:13:00.640 --> 0:13:03.160 Okay, So so the AP is lying because the a P. 0:13:03.600 --> 0:13:06.760 I don't know. I don't know. I don't know if 0:13:06.800 --> 0:13:07.520 AP more credible. 0:13:07.840 --> 0:13:11.760 Absolutely, trust me, I know this, Okay, I can incredible 0:13:12.240 --> 0:13:12.880 then seeing. 0:13:13.240 --> 0:13:15.720 I can tell you that when the AP interviewed me 0:13:15.800 --> 0:13:18.480 for a video that I did, and I crushed them 0:13:18.520 --> 0:13:20.319 in the interview. You know what the AP did, but 0:13:20.520 --> 0:13:23.040 totally biased interview. They didn't play. They didn't play the interview. 0:13:23.240 --> 0:13:25.800 CN ended with CEN interviewed and I crushed them interview, 0:13:25.800 --> 0:13:28.320 they still played it. I don't know. Look, I'm not 0:13:28.320 --> 0:13:31.240 saying I'm not saying AP is a completely corrupt source 0:13:31.240 --> 0:13:34.040 of information. I'm not saying that they are a relatively 0:13:34.080 --> 0:13:37.040 credible source information. But so, but okay, I have to 0:13:37.040 --> 0:13:38.960 see the article. I can only tell you that I 0:13:39.000 --> 0:13:44.520 saw Fox News, CNN go down into the tunnels under 0:13:44.520 --> 0:13:47.240 Al Shifa, and it wasn't one room. Now, it may 0:13:47.240 --> 0:13:49.160 not have been, it may not have been the main 0:13:49.240 --> 0:13:54.320 Hamas military base, but it was an incredibly, incredibly sophisticated 0:13:54.360 --> 0:13:56.680 system out of there where there are plenty of weapons. List. 0:13:57.160 --> 0:14:00.920 Yeah, that's that's that's not in. The Washington Post has 0:14:00.960 --> 0:14:04.120 another article kind of explaining the whole thing, to which 0:14:04.160 --> 0:14:07.920 again has a left bias to it, so less credible 0:14:07.920 --> 0:14:11.000 than the AP in my estimation, I like the news 0:14:11.040 --> 0:14:14.880 center and I like it to be very credible, right right, 0:14:14.960 --> 0:14:17.680 But you know, we take both sides around here because 0:14:17.720 --> 0:14:19.800 we need to. But the fact is is that you 0:14:19.840 --> 0:14:24.359 can imagine by saying, Okay, well they have this military 0:14:24.400 --> 0:14:28.400 base underneath this hospital, and they're using the hospital effectively, 0:14:28.480 --> 0:14:30.840 using the humans in the hospital as human shields, so 0:14:30.880 --> 0:14:33.920 we can bomb that hospital. Ops, they're not there. Well, 0:14:33.960 --> 0:14:36.320 maybe they're under the next hospital. Let's bomb that one. Oh, 0:14:36.320 --> 0:14:38.360 maybe they're under the next hospital. Let's bomb that one. 0:14:38.360 --> 0:14:40.560 And as far as I know, I think it's all 0:14:40.600 --> 0:14:44.640 but three or four hospitals have been blown up. And 0:14:44.720 --> 0:14:51.600 so this starts to shift away from Wow, Hamas has 0:14:51.640 --> 0:14:56.760 this really sophisticated terrorism network to Wow, this really looked 0:14:56.760 --> 0:14:59.760 like a convenient excuse to just bomb all the infrastructure 0:15:00.080 --> 0:15:02.520 in the Gaza strip and then now we're back to 0:15:02.600 --> 0:15:06.520 talking about how folks outside of that insulated bubble are 0:15:06.640 --> 0:15:10.120 becoming more and more critical of Israel's response, hence the 0:15:10.520 --> 0:15:15.200 shift in attitudes global support of Israel more in favor 0:15:15.240 --> 0:15:19.120 of Palestine. So all of these things work together where 0:15:19.360 --> 0:15:21.640 folks are now looking at this like, okay, so this 0:15:21.800 --> 0:15:26.000 is not fair, this is not humanitarian, this does not 0:15:26.120 --> 0:15:31.280 look like defense at all. There's no hostages recovered that. 0:15:31.320 --> 0:15:35.000 In fact, the IDF is killing hostages now at this point, 0:15:35.400 --> 0:15:38.880 that's something that they admitted, you know, And this response 0:15:39.440 --> 0:15:42.280 and to everyone that says, okay, well, Israel has a 0:15:42.360 --> 0:15:44.080 right to defend itself, We're not going to call for 0:15:44.120 --> 0:15:47.640 a ceasefire, it just starts to look as calloused as 0:15:47.680 --> 0:15:51.520 it looks. It's just starts to look as self serving 0:15:51.600 --> 0:15:55.000 as it looks. If in fact, Israel is going after 0:15:55.360 --> 0:16:00.280 something other than Hamas, could it be land to be 0:16:00.320 --> 0:16:02.840 whatever you know you said with skinseriocy theory. I cannot 0:16:02.840 --> 0:16:05.200 prove or disprove that, and I won't try to. But 0:16:05.520 --> 0:16:09.120 you start to question things, and then people have that, 0:16:09.360 --> 0:16:12.360 as you mentioned, emotional response like wait a minute, what's 0:16:12.400 --> 0:16:14.200 going on here? What's going on? 0:16:14.440 --> 0:16:16.800 Are you saying there's no terrace infrastructure. I don't understand. 0:16:16.880 --> 0:16:19.440 No, there absolutely is, and there are tunnels. There are 0:16:19.480 --> 0:16:24.040 tunnels there, Okay, But where they're identifying the tunnels and 0:16:24.080 --> 0:16:27.560 where we're supposed to find all of this stuff? Remember Israel, 0:16:28.320 --> 0:16:32.360 the Israeli militaries, I believe, the third most powerful military 0:16:32.360 --> 0:16:37.120 on earth. The intelligence that Israel has is about about 0:16:37.200 --> 0:16:40.920 there in terms of how sophisticated their intelligence is, their weapons, 0:16:40.960 --> 0:16:42.240 their training, et cetera. 0:16:43.280 --> 0:16:45.200 Indis militaries more powerful than Russia's. 0:16:46.600 --> 0:16:48.280 I forgive me if the numbers are wrong, but I 0:16:48.320 --> 0:16:50.880 know that it's a very powerful military. I believe it's 0:16:50.920 --> 0:16:54.320 in the top five military. Absolutely. This is something that 0:16:54.360 --> 0:16:58.680 I've read and maybe that's misinformation. Maybe the Israeli military 0:16:59.400 --> 0:17:01.480 not going to matter, okay, But I do know what it's. 0:17:01.600 --> 0:17:04.080 It's a sophisticated operation. It is not. 0:17:04.240 --> 0:17:07.680 It is not anything aistic is itst is no joke. 0:17:08.720 --> 0:17:12.119 It is Okay. So with the military that powerful, making 0:17:12.119 --> 0:17:13.679 a mistake like that, you. 0:17:13.560 --> 0:17:19.280 Have almost making mistakes, no matter how sophisticated you are, 0:17:19.640 --> 0:17:20.360 is part of war. 0:17:21.800 --> 0:17:24.760 Leaning into them is not. Leaning into them is not. 0:17:25.040 --> 0:17:27.359 And if it is, if leaning into your mistakes is 0:17:27.440 --> 0:17:33.040 a part of war. Then discuss again the the response 0:17:33.280 --> 0:17:38.800 of the world. See my thinking is, Amy, I love 0:17:39.920 --> 0:17:45.879 Jewish people, man. I've hugged when they when they lost 0:17:45.920 --> 0:17:48.399 loved ones. I've eaten at their tail, I've been in 0:17:48.440 --> 0:17:52.440 the houses these people took me in. Okay, this happened. 0:17:53.080 --> 0:17:55.199 I know. Hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on, 0:17:55.240 --> 0:17:56.600 hang on. I have to hear what you have to say. 0:17:56.600 --> 0:17:59.000 But let me say this, Okay. These people I love 0:17:59.080 --> 0:17:59.800 with my whole heart. 0:18:00.240 --> 0:18:00.560 I know it. 0:18:00.960 --> 0:18:05.760 And then I see this response from Israel in the 0:18:05.880 --> 0:18:09.040 name of those Jewish people, in the name of defending 0:18:09.040 --> 0:18:12.080 those Jewish people, okay, and then I have to be 0:18:12.200 --> 0:18:16.159 critical of that response because those Palestinian folks, even though 0:18:16.200 --> 0:18:18.439 I haven't met any Palestinian folks until this time in 0:18:18.480 --> 0:18:22.080 my life, my default setting is to love them the same, okay, 0:18:22.680 --> 0:18:26.520 And when I do, I run the risk of being 0:18:26.640 --> 0:18:31.359 anti Semitic. Huh me me. I run the risk of 0:18:31.400 --> 0:18:33.760 being called this, and so does everyone else, right, and 0:18:33.800 --> 0:18:36.800 so you become fearful of these criticisms, and so when 0:18:36.840 --> 0:18:39.960 you ask these questions like listen, is this just justification 0:18:40.119 --> 0:18:42.400 to do this? Because you can say that, and then 0:18:42.400 --> 0:18:44.800 we can have that conversation, which I don't suspect it 0:18:44.800 --> 0:18:46.639 will ever happen, and I don't know that it is, 0:18:46.880 --> 0:18:49.240 but you start to see that global support shift away, 0:18:49.280 --> 0:18:51.879 and then you start questioning, Listen, is this guy, this 0:18:52.000 --> 0:18:54.399 met and Yahoo guy, is he really acting in the 0:18:54.400 --> 0:18:58.080 best interest of Jewish populations globally? Because you've been on 0:18:58.119 --> 0:19:01.280 the ground at universities and you've seen a change in 0:19:01.320 --> 0:19:06.399 temperature for Jewish people. You've seen that, and that's something 0:19:06.400 --> 0:19:09.119 that breaks my heart. And I suspect it's because of 0:19:09.160 --> 0:19:12.800 his response murdering all these people who have nothing to 0:19:12.840 --> 0:19:14.520 do with it. He did not vote in that election 0:19:15.560 --> 0:19:19.480 there and and the people that join Hamas, I Hamas 0:19:19.560 --> 0:19:22.000 call it a terrorist organization. I'll agree with you, okay. 0:19:22.119 --> 0:19:25.320 But the people that join that, I question what alternative 0:19:25.320 --> 0:19:27.080 do they have? Do I sit here and get bombed 0:19:27.240 --> 0:19:29.280 or do I fight back? And if I fight back, 0:19:29.320 --> 0:19:31.159 how does it look? Are these are people fighting? Do 0:19:31.200 --> 0:19:32.280 I join them? Okay? 0:19:32.680 --> 0:19:35.840 Ras? First of all, you know you know that I 0:19:35.840 --> 0:19:38.919 would defend you to the death for something. Call you 0:19:38.960 --> 0:19:40.440 and semitic, right, you know that? 0:19:40.480 --> 0:19:41.119 Thank you? Hammy? 0:19:41.320 --> 0:19:43.040 Okay, you know I don't you don't have an en 0:19:43.119 --> 0:19:47.600 Semitic bone in your body. But what my my point 0:19:47.720 --> 0:19:52.440 is is that I think sometimes we get lost in 0:19:52.760 --> 0:19:58.960 the anecdote and we're losing. We're losing the what I 0:19:59.040 --> 0:20:01.399 was the data I was breaking up before. Like, look, 0:20:01.880 --> 0:20:04.600 we could argue back and forth again, can mistakes be made, 0:20:04.880 --> 0:20:08.160 States can be made, Mistakes have been made, But ultimately 0:20:08.200 --> 0:20:13.960 you're not and cannot impeach an overall statistic of the 0:20:14.000 --> 0:20:17.680 amount of civilians who were killed relative to the amount 0:20:18.160 --> 0:20:22.280 of terrorists who were killed. Now to go back to 0:20:22.560 --> 0:20:24.600 for a moment to what you said about what choice 0:20:24.640 --> 0:20:28.800 they have again, I can't stress enough before October seventh, 0:20:29.440 --> 0:20:31.840 they had their own essentially nation state. What do you 0:20:31.840 --> 0:20:34.239 mean what choice they had? They were making all their 0:20:34.240 --> 0:20:38.080 own political choices, their own economic choices. They were essentially 0:20:38.760 --> 0:20:41.440 what it almost was was a dry run for a 0:20:41.600 --> 0:20:45.800 Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza. Okay, which 0:20:45.840 --> 0:20:48.320 by the way, I think ultimately that's where we have 0:20:48.359 --> 0:20:52.560 to be. But it makes that argument very hard when 0:20:52.600 --> 0:20:55.040 people on the right say to me, well, look what 0:20:55.080 --> 0:20:58.160 happened with Gaza. We gave them essentially a state they 0:20:58.200 --> 0:21:02.399 made to a terrorist state. You cannot find a single 0:21:02.440 --> 0:21:07.000 example of Israel attacking or bombing Gaza when it wasn't 0:21:07.040 --> 0:21:11.199 responding from attacks from Gaza. Not one. There always a 0:21:11.240 --> 0:21:13.800 response now when one says, well, how do you compare 0:21:14.800 --> 0:21:19.280 you know, fifteen hundred people being killed to thirty thousand, 0:21:19.359 --> 0:21:22.400 because that's not proportional, right, that doesn't seem proportional. That's 0:21:22.440 --> 0:21:25.760 not what proportionality is. That's not in the law. And 0:21:25.800 --> 0:21:27.760 we can only go by the laws of war, right, 0:21:27.840 --> 0:21:32.440 which have been set up for years over the court 0:21:32.480 --> 0:21:35.240 actually with the course of centuries, and there is or 0:21:35.280 --> 0:21:37.879 will not be prosecuted for war crimes. And I'm sorry 0:21:37.920 --> 0:21:39.680 they will not be found guilty of war crimes because 0:21:39.680 --> 0:21:42.560 they're not committee war crimes. They are following the rules 0:21:42.600 --> 0:21:47.080 of war, how ugly they may seem to be, including proportionality, 0:21:47.080 --> 0:21:48.879 and we can get to that later. But that's I 0:21:48.920 --> 0:21:49.600 want to stress that. 0:21:50.880 --> 0:21:59.160 Well, this show is way too short and it's heartbreaking 0:21:59.160 --> 0:22:01.080 because there's so much more that we need to talk about. 0:22:01.160 --> 0:22:03.480 I appreciate you talking to me because it allows me 0:22:03.800 --> 0:22:07.880 some understanding and hopefully it allows our listeners some understanding. Naturally, 0:22:07.880 --> 0:22:11.879 there are people who would would push back, and I 0:22:11.960 --> 0:22:15.159 suspect that I need to have less talking points in 0:22:15.240 --> 0:22:18.080 an episode when it comes to something like this, because 0:22:18.400 --> 0:22:21.080 a lot of these we cannot simply just gloss over, 0:22:21.119 --> 0:22:23.760