1 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:13,520 Speaker 1: From Mediators World News headquarters in Bozeman, Montana. This is 2 00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:18,320 Speaker 1: Cal's We Can Review with Ryan cal Callahan. Now here's Cal. 3 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:23,240 Speaker 2: All right, friends and neighbors, Welcome to another episode of 4 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 2: Cal's Week in Review. You know, the the interview sessions 5 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 2: B sides. I don't know what we should call these, Phil. 6 00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:34,600 Speaker 2: We're actually recording from the studio, so Phil's here. I'm 7 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 2: not just making mental notes to them that occasionally make 8 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 2: it into the podcast. So this episode is a good one. 9 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:46,559 Speaker 2: Listen up if you were intrigued, if you wrote in, 10 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:51,760 Speaker 2: especially if you wrote in asking for another perspective on 11 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 2: New Mexico's E plus program, regarding the interview that we 12 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:06,440 Speaker 2: did with Mexico Wildlife Federation's executive director Jesse Dubell and 13 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:11,280 Speaker 2: his perspective or lay of the land on New Mexico's 14 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 2: E plus program, you got it this episode right now 15 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:22,560 Speaker 2: with Rex Martinson. Rex is currently an outfitter in the 16 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:28,759 Speaker 2: state of New Mexico, New Mexico resident, and a former 17 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:35,759 Speaker 2: officer for New Mexico Department of Game and Fish. So 18 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 2: is that most of that right, Rex? 19 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:41,240 Speaker 3: You're pretty close all the way around. 20 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:42,000 Speaker 1: Yeah. 21 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:45,960 Speaker 3: I currently work for Love of the Hunt outfitters here 22 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:50,480 Speaker 3: in New Mexico. I'm very new to that position work 23 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:55,920 Speaker 3: as the general manager. Previously, for the past eight years, 24 00:01:55,960 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 3: supervised New Mexico's E plus system. There was we have 25 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 3: an E plus program manager and he's kind of the 26 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:10,240 Speaker 3: day to day guy who does all the programming and 27 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:13,640 Speaker 3: all the details associated with E Plus. My job was 28 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:18,800 Speaker 3: to supervise that program along with our pronghorn program and 29 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:23,240 Speaker 3: our open gate access program. So that's where I come from. 30 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:29,840 Speaker 3: Previous to that, I was Missouri Department of Conservation employee. 31 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:35,359 Speaker 3: Spent about twenty seven almost thirty years there, and then 32 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 3: I came out here and took that position as the 33 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:42,000 Speaker 3: E Plus and Private Land Programs manager for the State 34 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:42,680 Speaker 3: of New Mexico. 35 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 4: Awesome. 36 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:52,679 Speaker 2: So this is a wonderfully complicated topic. It's only wonderful 37 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:55,720 Speaker 2: if you're kind of a conservation nerd like I am, 38 00:02:56,000 --> 00:03:00,960 Speaker 2: who you know, has a lot of questions about how 39 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:06,960 Speaker 2: these programs get started, what their intent is, how they function, 40 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:10,840 Speaker 2: and how they work in the world of you know, 41 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 2: managing game. Yeah, you know, I guess responsible wildlife management 42 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 2: for folks who are new to this topic and and Rex, 43 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:26,960 Speaker 2: I'm gonna dish this off to you as quick as possible. 44 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:33,040 Speaker 2: But E plus probably as a definition out there that 45 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 2: is not this, but the quick and dirty from from 46 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 2: my armchair here is that it is a type of 47 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 2: private land public access program. Whereas a land owner in 48 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 2: the state of New Mexico who is able to demonstrate, particularly. 49 00:03:57,440 --> 00:03:58,160 Speaker 4: With ELK. 50 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 2: ELK, the use of that private property by ELK which 51 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 2: are managed by the state, that landowner could receive a 52 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:17,000 Speaker 2: number of tags or no tags, but we're concentrating on 53 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:23,039 Speaker 2: the folks who have tags. Those tags are up for use. 54 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:26,520 Speaker 2: However that landowner sees fit so they can give them 55 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:31,839 Speaker 2: away or they can sell those tags on the open market. 56 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:34,240 Speaker 4: To hunters. 57 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 2: And those hunters those tags are available to New Mexico 58 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:44,719 Speaker 2: residents and New Mexico non residents. Now by taking a 59 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:52,680 Speaker 2: part in the financial benefit of being able to sell 60 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:57,400 Speaker 2: a tag on the open market, that landowner has to 61 00:04:57,480 --> 00:05:04,520 Speaker 2: agree to to open the gates essentially to their private 62 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:05,479 Speaker 2: land to. 63 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 4: Anyone in that unit. 64 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:19,040 Speaker 2: With that valid tag. If they are using unit wide tags. 65 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:26,279 Speaker 2: There's also private land only tags or ranch only tags. 66 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:29,599 Speaker 2: In our circles, ranch only would be an ro tag. 67 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:34,800 Speaker 2: A unit wide tag it would be the other one. 68 00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:40,640 Speaker 2: Unit wide tags would typically go for more money on 69 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 2: the open market unless you are hooked up with the 70 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:49,600 Speaker 2: ranch that really has lots of awesome habitat, lots of 71 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:54,360 Speaker 2: awesome opportunity than those ranch only tags, meaning they're only 72 00:05:54,400 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 2: good for that deeded ground, not the entire unit that 73 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 2: that deeded ground resides in. Then that tag can be 74 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:12,840 Speaker 2: quite valuable as well. So this is a system that 75 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 2: does allow public access to private ground. However, those tags 76 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 2: are only good for the people who can afford them. 77 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:27,360 Speaker 4: Is that yeah? Pretty good? 78 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:28,560 Speaker 1: Yeah? 79 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 3: I mean, I think that's the perception out there. The 80 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:33,120 Speaker 3: way you laid it out is probably how a lot 81 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:38,800 Speaker 3: of people look at it. Basically, I listened to your 82 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 3: podcast with Jesse de Bell. 83 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 1: And I'm not. 84 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:47,800 Speaker 3: Here to refute anything. My purpose was basically just to 85 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:51,320 Speaker 3: explain the E plus program, what it means to New Mexico, 86 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:54,120 Speaker 3: how New Mexico Game and Fish uses this to manage 87 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:56,839 Speaker 3: ELK in the state, some of the pros and cons. 88 00:06:57,120 --> 00:07:00,320 Speaker 3: There's some things that I agree with Jesse that that 89 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:04,600 Speaker 3: could be different about E plus, But there's a lot 90 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:06,719 Speaker 3: of things that are really good about E plus that 91 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:11,240 Speaker 3: I think got glassed over just a little bit. So Uh, 92 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:14,520 Speaker 3: I guess with with all that said, I think that 93 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 3: one of the main things that people need to realize 94 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 3: about the E plus program is. 95 00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 2: Well, actually, if if you wouldn't mind, uh, we'll cover 96 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:31,040 Speaker 2: your your bona fides, just real, real briefly by I'll 97 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 2: just ask you what what did you do in your 98 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 2: position when when you were in charge of this E 99 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:43,040 Speaker 2: plus program or you oversaw this E plus program? What 100 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:44,239 Speaker 2: what did that job entail? 101 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 3: It's a big program. Uh, there's a lot of detail 102 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:55,040 Speaker 3: uh involved in it. Every year, Uh, there's new ranches 103 00:07:55,080 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 3: that apply for the program. 104 00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 1: So every year we have to review applications. 105 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 3: We have to go through a scoring process to see 106 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 3: if they qualify for the program. We have to map 107 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:09,920 Speaker 3: all of the properties in GIS so that we know 108 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 3: the boundaries, and as you probably know, all the unit 109 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 3: wide properties are now on ONYX, so you can see 110 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 3: all the unit wide properties that are available for hunters 111 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:27,680 Speaker 3: in the fall. Then we also accept applications for what 112 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:31,840 Speaker 3: we call the Habitat Incentive Program, which is a way 113 00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:38,720 Speaker 3: for landowners to potentially get additional authorizations for habitat work 114 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 3: that they do on their private needed acres. So we 115 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 3: have to go through all of those. Basically from about 116 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:55,840 Speaker 3: February through May is when all this stuff takes place. 117 00:08:55,880 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 3: At the same time Game and Fish and you'll catch 118 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:02,520 Speaker 3: me saying we even though I don't work for them anymore. 119 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:03,679 Speaker 1: But it's still a bit of a habit. 120 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:07,880 Speaker 3: During that period of time, Game and Fish is making 121 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 3: sure all the ranches are entered, all the agreements have 122 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 3: come back. Because it's an annual program landowners participate in, 123 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:19,000 Speaker 3: so they have to sign an annual agreement if they 124 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 3: still want to participate. So we're getting all that information in, 125 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:26,960 Speaker 3: We're making sure all the acres are correct. We also 126 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:29,839 Speaker 3: have to check and make sure that they if they 127 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:33,200 Speaker 3: bought additional acres, those get added to their account because 128 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:37,840 Speaker 3: it counts whenever we go through the allocation process if 129 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:40,680 Speaker 3: they've sold property or if a ranch. 130 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:41,440 Speaker 1: Has changed hands. 131 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:44,440 Speaker 3: So there's a lot of stuff going on in the 132 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 3: E plus program to. 133 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:46,959 Speaker 1: Make it work. 134 00:09:47,679 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 3: The actual allocation process, then, in very simple terms, is 135 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:56,640 Speaker 3: the push of a button. Once you enter all the values, 136 00:09:56,720 --> 00:10:00,680 Speaker 3: all the ranches, all the acre values, you run the 137 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:06,840 Speaker 3: allocation for each unit. It automatically calculates how many private 138 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:12,320 Speaker 3: tags go to each ranch, and so once that allocation 139 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:14,960 Speaker 3: process is done, then we have to send out the 140 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:20,200 Speaker 3: allocation letters or emails for those that are hooked up 141 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:28,520 Speaker 3: for online only, and then those allocations, those authorization numbers 142 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 3: then are distributed out to the landowners. Most of them 143 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:36,200 Speaker 3: are doing online now, but some still go out by mail. 144 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:42,959 Speaker 3: So there's a lot of detail in the mix with this. 145 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:48,439 Speaker 3: So I was basically overseeing that program how it worked, 146 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:52,320 Speaker 3: making sure everything was done properly and on time. And 147 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:56,600 Speaker 3: for such a big program, it was me the program manager, 148 00:10:56,640 --> 00:11:01,680 Speaker 3: Aaron Roberts, and a clerk that that runs this whole outfit. 149 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:07,520 Speaker 2: So it's a pretty heavy lift there for for three folks. 150 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:09,360 Speaker 1: It is a huge lift. 151 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:17,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and uh, you know a lot at stake 152 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 2: as well as you know, oh yeah yeah, so you 153 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:27,400 Speaker 2: know the program thoroughly? 154 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:28,640 Speaker 1: Yes? 155 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:36,160 Speaker 2: And and when did because originally, like, has this land 156 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:40,160 Speaker 2: owner tag program changed over the years, I would I 157 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:41,160 Speaker 2: would assume it has. 158 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:47,679 Speaker 3: Yeah, it has, so that there's been several different versions 159 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:53,079 Speaker 3: of of E plus. I think that the actual E 160 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:58,120 Speaker 3: plus was developed around two thousand and five, which is 161 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:01,319 Speaker 3: a pretty close result imblemce of what it is now. 162 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 3: Before that they called it something else, I forget what, 163 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:08,520 Speaker 3: but two thousand and five is kind of when E 164 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:13,679 Speaker 3: plus as we know it came into existence. There were 165 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:17,720 Speaker 3: a few tweaks from two thousand and five to twenty eighteen, 166 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:23,320 Speaker 3: but the big change came in twenty eighteen, and I 167 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 3: was there for that. 168 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:29,320 Speaker 4: And what was that? What was the big the big change? 169 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:34,400 Speaker 3: So probably the biggest thing here is before twenty eighteen, 170 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:41,320 Speaker 3: there were really no real qualifications for a property to 171 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:44,560 Speaker 3: get in the program. It was basically run on a 172 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:48,080 Speaker 3: region to region basis. There's four regions management regions in 173 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:52,160 Speaker 3: New Mexico. Each region kind of ran eplus how they 174 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:56,800 Speaker 3: saw fit, which caused inconsistencies across the state. You had 175 00:12:56,840 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 3: some properties getting in that didn't belong in. You had 176 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:05,439 Speaker 3: people getting these habitat incentives with no way to track 177 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:07,319 Speaker 3: it or no way to know what was going on. 178 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:13,160 Speaker 3: There were no criteria for properties to get in the program, 179 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:19,440 Speaker 3: and so in twenty eighteen we adopted the scoring criteria 180 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:22,360 Speaker 3: for properties to qualify for the program. 181 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:23,840 Speaker 1: That was one of the biggest things. 182 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:28,040 Speaker 3: And in doing that, because it became part of the rule, 183 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:33,040 Speaker 3: we had to score all the existing properties and all 184 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:36,040 Speaker 3: the new ones coming into the program in twenty eighteen, 185 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:41,679 Speaker 3: and as a result, of that game and fish eliminated 186 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:45,640 Speaker 3: seven hundred ranches from the E plus program that had 187 00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:49,400 Speaker 3: no business being in there in the first place. That 188 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:54,360 Speaker 3: was one of the bigger things that happened. To another degree, 189 00:13:54,440 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 3: we had how these authorizations were issued, and this is 190 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:02,760 Speaker 3: getting into a little bit of the detail of the 191 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:06,920 Speaker 3: program we changed. 192 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:08,199 Speaker 1: I'll try to keep it simple. 193 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:12,120 Speaker 3: We changed the distribution of those tags so that the 194 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:16,320 Speaker 3: small ranches in each unit had a better chance to 195 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:24,520 Speaker 3: get an authorization because they typically would sell THEIRS at 196 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:30,760 Speaker 3: a higher rate than the big ranches. So this is 197 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:32,760 Speaker 3: probably a good time to talk about how the E 198 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:38,360 Speaker 3: plus allocation process works. Yeah, yeah, yeah, on the tip 199 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:41,480 Speaker 3: of my tongue, because I can see your your wheels 200 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:48,800 Speaker 3: turning there, and uh so, here's how the allocation process 201 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:50,000 Speaker 3: works for E plus. 202 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 1: It's simple. 203 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 3: It's based on simple acre based calculations, and each unit 204 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:04,600 Speaker 3: is allotted by rule a certain number of bull tags, 205 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 3: archery tags, and cow tags. And I'll use Game Management 206 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 3: Unit fifteen for an example, because that entire unit is 207 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:21,880 Speaker 3: in the primary management zone and. 208 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:24,880 Speaker 2: A very popular unit. 209 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:32,120 Speaker 1: It is a popular unit, so I'm looking at I 210 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 1: think these are twenty twenty. 211 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:39,280 Speaker 3: Three numbers there were nine hundred and twenty three bull 212 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:46,280 Speaker 3: tags for GMU fifteen. So what Gaming Fish does is 213 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 3: they look at that unit, they calculate the number of 214 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 3: public acres that's for service BLM and state trust land 215 00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 3: for that entire unit. They calculate the number of private 216 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 3: aids in that unit, and you get a percentage split. 217 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:06,360 Speaker 1: You get what we call the public private split. 218 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:12,120 Speaker 3: So in GMU fifteen, seventy eight percent of the GMU 219 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:18,120 Speaker 3: is public land, twenty two percent is private land. So 220 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:22,080 Speaker 3: of the nine hundred and twenty three bull tags, seventy 221 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 3: eight percent go to the public draw, which equates to 222 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:29,960 Speaker 3: seven hundred and twenty permits, and twenty two percent of 223 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:33,160 Speaker 3: those permits go to the private site, which is two 224 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:37,400 Speaker 3: hundred and three. And then we use the same calculation 225 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:41,440 Speaker 3: for either sex archery and cow tax. Okay, so it's 226 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:50,520 Speaker 3: based that the public acres. That percentage of acres comprises 227 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:53,960 Speaker 3: the percent of tags that will go to the public draw. 228 00:16:56,520 --> 00:17:00,960 Speaker 3: The other twenty two percent are set aside for private land. 229 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:07,960 Speaker 3: And I'm just talking to bulltags right now. So in 230 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:11,359 Speaker 3: Unit fifteen, two hundred and three bull tags in twenty 231 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:14,960 Speaker 3: twenty three were set aside for the private land side. 232 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:20,720 Speaker 3: The private land tags that are issued in rule for 233 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:25,520 Speaker 3: each unit are then distributed to the private landowners through 234 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:30,040 Speaker 3: the E plus program. So there's the ELK rule that 235 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:35,719 Speaker 3: sets season dates, limits number of tags. There's the E 236 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:43,280 Speaker 3: plus rule that dictates how we distribute the private land tags. Okay, 237 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:47,919 Speaker 3: so how it works is the ranches that are signed 238 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:52,439 Speaker 3: up in the E plus program, they get a percentage 239 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:55,280 Speaker 3: of the tags based. 240 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:56,360 Speaker 1: On how many acres they have. 241 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 3: So for example, and this is just simple example, if 242 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:04,280 Speaker 3: there were one hundred bull tags and you were a 243 00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:08,800 Speaker 3: large landowner in this game management unit, and you had 244 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 3: ten percent of the private land, you'd get ten percent. 245 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:13,240 Speaker 1: Of those bulltags. 246 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:17,960 Speaker 3: So you'd get out of the hundred bull tags, your 247 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:22,320 Speaker 3: acreage would combine enough to get ten of those bulltags, 248 00:18:22,359 --> 00:18:26,919 Speaker 3: you get ten percent of them. So when the allocation 249 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 3: is run, each private ranch is allocated a number of 250 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 3: each type of tag bull either sex and cow based 251 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:41,000 Speaker 3: on the percentage of land masks that they make up 252 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:48,200 Speaker 3: in that game management unit. When you get so each 253 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:52,159 Speaker 3: ranch will get an allocation. The smaller the acreage goes, 254 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:55,920 Speaker 3: the less of an allocation they get, right yep. Until 255 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:58,600 Speaker 3: you get to a certain point where a ranch gets 256 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:02,560 Speaker 3: a fraction of a tag. Well, Game and Fish can't 257 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 3: issue a fraction of a tag, So at that acreage 258 00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 3: there's a cutoff, and all the ranches of that acreage 259 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:14,919 Speaker 3: are below become what they call a small contributing ranch, 260 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:21,879 Speaker 3: and they take the combined acres and grab a percentage 261 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:23,160 Speaker 3: of their combined acres. 262 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:25,640 Speaker 1: So if you've. 263 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:33,439 Speaker 3: Got one hundred small contributing ranches and their percentage comes 264 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:41,120 Speaker 3: out to get fifty tags, those ranches will get They 265 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:43,800 Speaker 3: will draw for those fifty tags, so half of those 266 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:48,959 Speaker 3: ranches will get one and the other half won't. Gosha 267 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:52,800 Speaker 3: bigger ranches, the bigger ranches we call base ranches. They 268 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:56,399 Speaker 3: get an allocation every year because they have enough land 269 00:19:56,480 --> 00:20:01,640 Speaker 3: mass to justify at least one hole authorization. 270 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:02,840 Speaker 4: And those. 271 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:09,760 Speaker 2: Right, and then those would still be subject to the 272 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:14,440 Speaker 2: tags issued by New Mexico Game and Fish that year. 273 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:20,320 Speaker 2: If you know, if surveys changed dramatically from year to. 274 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:24,240 Speaker 3: Year, yeah, if tag numbers go down. So the elks 275 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:28,040 Speaker 3: rule is on a four year cycle, So every four years, 276 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:32,240 Speaker 3: the Game and Fish will make a recommendation to the 277 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:36,119 Speaker 3: commission to either raise or lower or keep the numbers 278 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:36,639 Speaker 3: the same. 279 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:38,840 Speaker 1: So every four years. 280 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 3: Those total numbers could change dependent on the unit to 281 00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 3: how many public tags are available and how many private 282 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:50,720 Speaker 3: tags are available. 283 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 2: And then how is the determination made for a tag 284 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:01,600 Speaker 2: being a ranch on only tag or a tag being 285 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:02,800 Speaker 2: a unit wide tag. 286 00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:05,160 Speaker 4: So that is. 287 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:06,119 Speaker 1: Up to the landowner. 288 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:10,920 Speaker 3: So they have a chance every year, Like I said earlier, 289 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:13,879 Speaker 3: it's every year, they have to sign an annual agreement, 290 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:19,440 Speaker 3: and during that particular time they can select the ranch 291 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:24,200 Speaker 3: only option or the unit wide option, and they can change. 292 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:26,240 Speaker 3: They can flip flop from year to year. It doesn't matter, 293 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:31,679 Speaker 3: game and fish doesn't matter. It doesn't account for do 294 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:33,760 Speaker 3: they get more or less tags if they're ranch only 295 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:38,879 Speaker 3: or unit wide. That's just a preference that's afforded to 296 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:42,679 Speaker 3: the landowner. If they want to participate in the program, 297 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:47,240 Speaker 3: they can keep their branch private by signing up ranch only, 298 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:50,080 Speaker 3: or they can sign up unit wide and then open 299 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:52,600 Speaker 3: their property up to public access as well. 300 00:21:54,920 --> 00:22:00,240 Speaker 2: Got it, And so that that's one consideration. And then 301 00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:07,400 Speaker 2: is that price in your experience instead of my outside experience? 302 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:12,640 Speaker 2: Is that also a consideration? Is it in fifteen for instance, 303 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 2: or just in New Mexico in general? Is it typical 304 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:26,760 Speaker 2: that that ro tag is less valuable or is it 305 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:28,560 Speaker 2: just a case by case basis. 306 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:33,800 Speaker 3: Well, I think generally speaking, it's less valuable. It's only 307 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:37,160 Speaker 3: valuable on the really large ranches. 308 00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 1: And I think. 309 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 3: I think Jesse kind of alluded to this in his 310 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:48,560 Speaker 3: comments that you know, there are some big ranches out 311 00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:50,760 Speaker 3: there that have elk all year loan. There are big 312 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:53,639 Speaker 3: ranches they have nice elk there. They can count on 313 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:57,320 Speaker 3: those elf being there during the hunting season. So those 314 00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:00,400 Speaker 3: ranches are typically going to go ranch only so they 315 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:04,080 Speaker 3: have complete control of who's on the ranch and when 316 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:08,800 Speaker 3: they're there. And those ranch only tags on those bigger 317 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:13,920 Speaker 3: properties can be very valuable. If you get a smaller 318 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:19,080 Speaker 3: ranch only property that's eighty acres two hundred acres, that's 319 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:21,800 Speaker 3: not going to be much of a selling point for 320 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:26,159 Speaker 3: somebody wanting to hunt elk because they are stuck to 321 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:27,960 Speaker 3: those deeded acres for sure. 322 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:32,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's kind of hard to imagine the eighty acre 323 00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:39,520 Speaker 2: chunk that's going to hold onto elk consistently and long 324 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:43,400 Speaker 2: enough to provide that opportunity. Not that they're not out. 325 00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:46,800 Speaker 3: There, but they may be there, but you shoot one 326 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:47,639 Speaker 3: time and they're gone. 327 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:50,920 Speaker 1: Yep. Kind of a one and done deal. 328 00:23:53,520 --> 00:24:05,160 Speaker 2: And so as the states concerned, is there a preference 329 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:12,320 Speaker 2: for either is there more monetary gain for the state 330 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:18,080 Speaker 2: for one tag or another, or is there just a 331 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:22,320 Speaker 2: flat fee coming back when these tags are sold. 332 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:25,760 Speaker 1: It's just based on what tags are sold. 333 00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:31,159 Speaker 3: Game and Fish doesn't care if your ranch only or 334 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 3: a unit wide. Really, all Game and Fish cares about 335 00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:37,359 Speaker 3: is the management of ELK and the part that the 336 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:44,680 Speaker 3: private land tag program makes because those each unit's total 337 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:48,280 Speaker 3: tag allocation is based on a sustainable harvest right. 338 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:51,480 Speaker 1: So if we know we. 339 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 3: Want to keep the population at a certain level or 340 00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:58,639 Speaker 3: reduce it or whatever, we know we've got to hit 341 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:01,840 Speaker 3: a certain number of tags in order to hit that goal. 342 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:06,919 Speaker 3: So those private land tags are part of that calculation. 343 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:10,600 Speaker 3: It's part of Game and Fish's management program for ELK. 344 00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:15,760 Speaker 3: It helps us achieve those goals and meet our harvest 345 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:20,880 Speaker 3: harvest management objectives for each of those units. But as 346 00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:28,040 Speaker 3: far as what gets sold, we don't care as much 347 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:32,679 Speaker 3: how they sell them or how they use them, as 348 00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:34,360 Speaker 3: long as as they are using. 349 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:39,200 Speaker 2: Them to meet that management objective. 350 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:41,920 Speaker 1: To meet a management objective exactly. 351 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:47,600 Speaker 2: And so yeah, from I guess from the the the 352 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:55,439 Speaker 2: retired Game and Fish perspective. What what's the general feeling 353 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:58,400 Speaker 2: on how E plus works. 354 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 3: Well, it depends on who you ask. I mean, as 355 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:06,240 Speaker 3: far from a state agency position, it works great, Okay. 356 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:13,960 Speaker 3: It's a way to distribute tags to reach New Mexico 357 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 3: Game and Fish's harvest objectives for the state. That the 358 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:23,840 Speaker 3: E plus program. I think it's it's worth mentioning that 359 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:32,440 Speaker 3: in statute in New Mexico's statute, it says the Director 360 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:36,040 Speaker 3: of the Department of Game and Fish shall issue landowner 361 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:41,199 Speaker 3: permits for the lawful taking of elk in accordance with regulations. 362 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:41,920 Speaker 1: Of the State Game Commission. 363 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:48,920 Speaker 3: So Game and Fish is mandated by statute to have 364 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:53,440 Speaker 3: a private land ELK program, and that private land ELK 365 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:59,200 Speaker 3: program is the E plus program. If E plus went away, 366 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:02,439 Speaker 3: there would still have to be something to replace it 367 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:06,680 Speaker 3: because the statute. Unless the statute changes and goes away, 368 00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:10,080 Speaker 3: Game and Fish is still mandated to issue private land 369 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 3: tax Okay, So I think that's important. The other thing 370 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:22,280 Speaker 3: that's important about the E plus program is it's really 371 00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:29,520 Speaker 3: a recognition program for that recognizes the contributions that private 372 00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:32,879 Speaker 3: landowners in New Mexico make to the overall ELK herd 373 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:33,600 Speaker 3: and elk. 374 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:38,640 Speaker 1: Management in the state. It's a unique program that. 375 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,879 Speaker 3: You know, Jesse pointed out, and others will agree, no 376 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:46,880 Speaker 3: other state has a program like this, good or bad 377 00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:51,880 Speaker 3: or ugly. It's it's it's unique. It's unique to New Mexico. 378 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:56,959 Speaker 3: I came in, you know, from the outside. I came 379 00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:01,159 Speaker 3: from Missouri. Most of the hunting there's private, and I 380 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:06,200 Speaker 3: came here and was exposed to this E plus program 381 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:08,200 Speaker 3: and I'm like, I kind of had some of the 382 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:11,560 Speaker 3: same concerns. I was like, Wow, we're we're giving these 383 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:13,240 Speaker 3: landowners elk tags. 384 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:15,560 Speaker 1: Seems interesting. 385 00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:20,200 Speaker 3: The more I got into it and understood the program, 386 00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:25,600 Speaker 3: understood the landscape, understood the New Mexico landowners, it made 387 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:28,520 Speaker 3: a whole lot more sense to me. I think a 388 00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:33,480 Speaker 3: lot of people see this as an unfair program because 389 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:36,600 Speaker 3: these landowners are getting these authorizations and they're able to 390 00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:41,280 Speaker 3: sell them, sometimes for a lot of money. But the 391 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:47,080 Speaker 3: flip side to that is these landowners have elk on them, 392 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:50,200 Speaker 3: maybe not during the hunting season, but the rest of 393 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:55,480 Speaker 3: the year they do. They're drinking water, they're tearing up fences, 394 00:28:55,640 --> 00:29:00,840 Speaker 3: they're grazing on agricultural land, and without out those private 395 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:03,080 Speaker 3: private acres out there. 396 00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:07,120 Speaker 1: Kind of propping up New. 397 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:10,760 Speaker 3: Mexico's elk herd, so to speak, it would be a 398 00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:14,800 Speaker 3: different story. And this is just a really pretty decent 399 00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:18,760 Speaker 3: way to recognize New Mexico landowners in the part they 400 00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:24,400 Speaker 3: play in New Mexico's elk herd and ELK management. So, 401 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:27,880 Speaker 3: you know, like I said, I've kind of come full circle. 402 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:30,480 Speaker 3: I questioned it to begin with. The more I learned 403 00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 3: about it, the more it made sense and the impact 404 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:41,600 Speaker 3: that it has on the private landowner and these landowners. 405 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:46,640 Speaker 1: They like ELK. Yeah, they complain about them. 406 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:50,720 Speaker 3: They'll they'll complain about them tearing up their fences and stuff, 407 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:52,680 Speaker 3: But overall they like ELK because they know that it's 408 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:54,960 Speaker 3: good for the economy, it's good for the state of 409 00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:58,080 Speaker 3: New Mexico. If they're in the E plus program, it 410 00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:03,080 Speaker 3: can be good for them. Very few of these ranchers 411 00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:07,800 Speaker 3: are getting rich on ELK. Most of them will tell 412 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:13,720 Speaker 3: you it doesn't even cover their damage expenses or what 413 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:17,040 Speaker 3: the ELK are doing on their property. But they're willing 414 00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:21,960 Speaker 3: to accept ELK and tolerate ELK on their property if 415 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:25,080 Speaker 3: they know they get a little something back through this 416 00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:30,920 Speaker 3: E plus program. We also have in New Mexico a 417 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:35,600 Speaker 3: landowner's taking rule. Most states do have a depredation type rule. 418 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:41,360 Speaker 3: Here in New Mexico, if a landowner's experiencing damage, they. 419 00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:41,960 Speaker 1: Can just shoot out. 420 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:48,800 Speaker 3: And this program I think has helped stave that off. 421 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:51,800 Speaker 3: I think it's saved a lot of that depredation stuff 422 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:55,440 Speaker 3: because they feel like they are getting recognized at least 423 00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:59,880 Speaker 3: to some degree through this E plus program. 424 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:07,720 Speaker 2: Depredation scenario or that's a there's the intent there is, 425 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:09,920 Speaker 2: like if you really want to kill them, you have 426 00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:11,120 Speaker 2: to leave them la A two. 427 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:11,720 Speaker 4: Is that right? 428 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:17,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, they've got to call an officer within twenty four hours. 429 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:21,040 Speaker 3: They have to leave them, leave them in place. The 430 00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:23,440 Speaker 3: game wardens usually have a list of people that will 431 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:27,600 Speaker 3: try to, you know, get them at least utilized for 432 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:28,000 Speaker 3: the meat. 433 00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:30,360 Speaker 1: But it's kind of a. 434 00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:37,520 Speaker 3: It's an ugly program, yeah, I think for sure. But 435 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:41,800 Speaker 3: the thing is in the E plus program, if a 436 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:47,080 Speaker 3: landowner is an E plus and they utilize the landowner taking, 437 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:51,880 Speaker 3: you know, if they just kill elk, then they're removed 438 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:56,480 Speaker 3: from the program for a minimum of three years. So 439 00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:59,440 Speaker 3: there's an incentive for them to stay in the program 440 00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:03,240 Speaker 3: and not shoot the elk. So I think it's I 441 00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:05,320 Speaker 3: think it's good on that regard. 442 00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:08,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's not quite a stick and a carrot, 443 00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:14,000 Speaker 2: but it there's enough of a stick there. I guess 444 00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:17,719 Speaker 2: to say, like, if this is something you choose to do, 445 00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:21,040 Speaker 2: make sure that you absolutely that that's kind of your 446 00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:25,200 Speaker 2: last the last resort type of call. 447 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:27,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, for sure. 448 00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:30,520 Speaker 3: And once they make that determination, then they're out of 449 00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:35,640 Speaker 3: the E plus program for three years, so they would 450 00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:38,160 Speaker 3: miss out on that potential benefit as well. 451 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:41,200 Speaker 4: And then when. 452 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:49,160 Speaker 2: We look at it, we'll step back from the Okay, 453 00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:53,400 Speaker 2: I guess we should ask, along with the E plus 454 00:32:53,440 --> 00:33:00,320 Speaker 2: consideration from your time at the New Mexico game and ish, 455 00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:07,160 Speaker 2: what was the I guess the public hunter perception of 456 00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:14,400 Speaker 2: E plus during during your tenure? Well it or have 457 00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:15,680 Speaker 2: you seen that change? 458 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:17,920 Speaker 4: I guess I haven't. 459 00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:23,720 Speaker 3: Seen a lot of change in the public perception. The 460 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:30,400 Speaker 3: public hunters here in New Mexico. They know this program exists. 461 00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:37,719 Speaker 3: Not many people complain directly to me about it. They 462 00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:40,520 Speaker 3: know what's out there, they know why it's out there. 463 00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:47,160 Speaker 3: They they realize that their draw odds for the public 464 00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:53,719 Speaker 3: draw are challenging sometimes. But nobody really blamed the E 465 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:56,920 Speaker 3: plus program for that or let me just say, a 466 00:33:57,040 --> 00:34:00,000 Speaker 3: very few percentage of the public hunters that I tell 467 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:05,479 Speaker 3: up to, we're really ripping on the E plus program. 468 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:11,280 Speaker 2: And then from the outfitter perspective, which which is the 469 00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:15,120 Speaker 2: the gig you're in now, how does the E plus 470 00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:19,080 Speaker 2: work from the from the outfitter side of things, the 471 00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:21,400 Speaker 2: business side, nonag business. 472 00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:25,520 Speaker 3: I guess yeah, it's a big part. It's a big 473 00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:29,400 Speaker 3: part of the the outfitters business here in New Mexico. 474 00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:33,399 Speaker 3: And again, this is kind of where we get into 475 00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:34,120 Speaker 3: the money issue. 476 00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:34,920 Speaker 1: And I know. 477 00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:37,440 Speaker 3: That that sticks in a lot of people's crawl. 478 00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:38,720 Speaker 1: You know that. 479 00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:43,320 Speaker 3: These landowner tags do go for a lot of money, 480 00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:47,520 Speaker 3: and most of them, in fact, do go to non residents, 481 00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:51,840 Speaker 3: and a good portion of those go through the outfitter business. 482 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:58,440 Speaker 2: So, and would you mind explaining? So, yeah, was that 483 00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:01,800 Speaker 2: two thousand part of the change in twenty eighteen, the 484 00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:07,600 Speaker 2: outfitter preference part of that application? No, that that's been 485 00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:10,799 Speaker 2: that was two thousand and five, that's been a long time. 486 00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:14,720 Speaker 2: That well, the whole uh you're talking about the eighty 487 00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:19,520 Speaker 2: four uh ten percent and six percent split in. 488 00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:24,279 Speaker 1: Public draw tags, I'm I must be. 489 00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:31,360 Speaker 3: So that's a different rule, and that's been an effect 490 00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:33,440 Speaker 3: for quite quite a while. I don't know where. Eighty 491 00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:37,160 Speaker 3: eighty four percent of the public draw techs go to residents, 492 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:43,040 Speaker 3: ten percent go to the outfitted hunters, and six percent 493 00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:45,319 Speaker 3: go to non residents. 494 00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:47,640 Speaker 4: Right, so yeah, so. 495 00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:54,680 Speaker 2: You but as a non resident applicant, would be increasing 496 00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:56,920 Speaker 2: your odds by by going with a with an outfitter. 497 00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:02,719 Speaker 3: Correct, Yes, that is correct, but those that split that 498 00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:06,719 Speaker 3: eighty four to ten to six split applies only to 499 00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:11,600 Speaker 3: draw tags. It does not apply to E plus authorizations. 500 00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:17,399 Speaker 3: Once that authorization is issued to a landowner, they can 501 00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:21,200 Speaker 3: use it themselves. They can give it away, they can 502 00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,480 Speaker 3: sell it, they can trade for it whatever. 503 00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:24,719 Speaker 1: They want to do. 504 00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:30,000 Speaker 3: And there's no restriction on resident or non resident. 505 00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:31,600 Speaker 1: Who who they can sell it to or give it to. 506 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:37,359 Speaker 2: So is the fee on that New Mexico the state 507 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:42,719 Speaker 2: of New Mexico gets for that authorization, right because it 508 00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:44,560 Speaker 2: doesn't become a tag until. 509 00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:47,320 Speaker 1: It's got to be converted to a tag. 510 00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:49,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, it gets paid for right, yes? 511 00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:50,120 Speaker 1: Correct? 512 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:53,959 Speaker 2: Does that fee change between resident and non resident? Well 513 00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:56,400 Speaker 2: from the if it's a landowner tag. 514 00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:00,600 Speaker 3: Yes, so, Whoever, if you're a resident, you the resident 515 00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:02,759 Speaker 3: fee if you're a non resident, you pay the non 516 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:06,200 Speaker 3: resident fee for that authorization, and. 517 00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:08,040 Speaker 4: Do those fees. 518 00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:14,960 Speaker 2: Pay for the e plus work being done by the state. 519 00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:18,000 Speaker 2: It doesn't seem like it from the program that you 520 00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:18,879 Speaker 2: laid out, but. 521 00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:25,719 Speaker 3: You know, New Mexico is a state that gets all 522 00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:30,240 Speaker 3: of its revenue from permit sales and federal excise reimbursements. 523 00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:33,919 Speaker 3: We don't have a set aside sales tax or any 524 00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:40,440 Speaker 3: other revenue generator, so it's all permit license driven and 525 00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:43,600 Speaker 3: then the cost share from federal federal programs. 526 00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:46,319 Speaker 2: Did you feel like from going from a state like 527 00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:51,120 Speaker 2: Missouri that is generally seen as flush with cash from 528 00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:57,440 Speaker 2: a wildlife agency perspective, going from because they have a 529 00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:02,000 Speaker 2: dedicated sales tax, correct, did you feel like when you 530 00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:04,600 Speaker 2: made the jump to New Mexico game and fish that 531 00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:07,919 Speaker 2: you weren't working with the amount of resources you had 532 00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:09,760 Speaker 2: on the Missouri side of the line. 533 00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:10,640 Speaker 1: Oh? 534 00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:16,320 Speaker 3: Absolutely, Yeah. Missouri's got almost two thousand full time employees. 535 00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:21,440 Speaker 3: New Mexico has right around three hundred full time My gosh, 536 00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:24,600 Speaker 3: So yeah, it was quite It was a little bit 537 00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:27,640 Speaker 3: of culture shock going from there and coming to here. 538 00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:31,120 Speaker 3: I really enjoyed it. 539 00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:32,560 Speaker 1: It was it was fun. 540 00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:36,319 Speaker 3: I enjoyed the whole time the last eight years, but 541 00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:39,120 Speaker 3: it was definitely an eye opener that you know, you 542 00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:42,160 Speaker 3: have a state, what New Mexico's like the ninth or 543 00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:46,000 Speaker 3: fifth biggest state in the nation, and it's probably got 544 00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:50,320 Speaker 3: one of the smaller game and fish, you know, personnel 545 00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:51,520 Speaker 3: wise in the. 546 00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:59,080 Speaker 2: Nation, which kind of I mean kind of just that 547 00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:03,560 Speaker 2: math puts a lot to own us on the on 548 00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:05,280 Speaker 2: the landowner in a lot of that state. 549 00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:09,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, for sure. 550 00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:16,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's uh, it's day and night from Missouri 551 00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:17,480 Speaker 3: to New Mexico for sure. 552 00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:22,960 Speaker 2: And so then you know, from my experience, you know, 553 00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:29,520 Speaker 2: the biggest incentive for an outfitter for to be a 554 00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:35,160 Speaker 2: proponent of these transferable tags is the fact that you 555 00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:40,239 Speaker 2: can guarantee of booking, so you're you're not reliant on 556 00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:47,160 Speaker 2: the application process. You're not going to take a deposit 557 00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:49,319 Speaker 2: from a group of guys that may or may not 558 00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:56,400 Speaker 2: come hunt with you that year. It adds some uncertainty 559 00:39:56,440 --> 00:40:00,600 Speaker 2: and some hoops. Whereas that tags that you can pull 560 00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:04,600 Speaker 2: out of the hat when folks make that deposit and 561 00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:08,840 Speaker 2: set those aside. Is it a lot safer on the 562 00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:09,920 Speaker 2: business end of things? 563 00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:10,680 Speaker 1: Oh? 564 00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:16,840 Speaker 3: Absolutely, Yeah, when you put these and every outfitter does 565 00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:20,600 Speaker 3: this the same way. I'm sure you will put in 566 00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:24,120 Speaker 3: as many people as you can in the draw under 567 00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:28,560 Speaker 3: your outfitter number, and then a certain percentage of those 568 00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:33,279 Speaker 3: people will draw attack everybody else is either going to 569 00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:36,120 Speaker 3: try to purchase a landowner tag or they'll just wait 570 00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:39,920 Speaker 3: till next year to try to draw again. And this 571 00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:43,000 Speaker 3: is where the money comes in. You know, there are 572 00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:46,920 Speaker 3: a lot of wealthy non resident landowners, and there are 573 00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:52,080 Speaker 3: wealthy New Mexico landowners as well, but the vast majority 574 00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:56,200 Speaker 3: of folks that buy these landowner tags are non residents. 575 00:40:57,200 --> 00:41:00,640 Speaker 1: Because it is so much harder for them to draw here. 576 00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:03,120 Speaker 3: And those folks, I don't know where they get their money, 577 00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:06,640 Speaker 3: but they got plenty of it and they don't mind 578 00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:10,920 Speaker 3: spending it, but they'll put down a deposit. They'll put 579 00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:14,040 Speaker 3: on a seven eight thousand dollars deposit on a landowner tag. 580 00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:18,719 Speaker 3: And we have certain landowners we work with every year, 581 00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:19,680 Speaker 3: so we kind of have. 582 00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:20,920 Speaker 1: An idea how many we. 583 00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:24,560 Speaker 3: Can book guaranteed hunts, and then we pick up a 584 00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:28,040 Speaker 3: few extras every year when the list comes out, uh, 585 00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:31,560 Speaker 3: and then those are those are guaranteed, Those those hunts 586 00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:35,440 Speaker 3: we can book. They they know what they're getting into. 587 00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:39,759 Speaker 3: They pay the landowner fee for the authorization they buy, 588 00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:42,360 Speaker 3: use that authorization to buy their out of state hunting 589 00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:47,400 Speaker 3: license and ELK license, and then they pay the outfitter 590 00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:49,440 Speaker 3: fee for food. 591 00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:51,960 Speaker 1: And lodging and a guide and those. 592 00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:55,759 Speaker 3: It's very important for the outfitting business here in New 593 00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:59,520 Speaker 3: Mexico to have this landowner program. 594 00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:00,600 Speaker 4: Yep. 595 00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:04,520 Speaker 2: I mean yeah, I'd be like going down to the 596 00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:11,160 Speaker 2: tire shop and hoping they get some tires in that day, right, yeah. 597 00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:13,440 Speaker 3: And then the meantime you're sitting there with four flats. 598 00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:18,920 Speaker 2: Yeah. So I think every everybody can understand that. So 599 00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:26,360 Speaker 2: where do we, you know, get this this consternation from you? 600 00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:26,880 Speaker 4: You know? 601 00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:30,279 Speaker 2: I I wish I was a little bit better with 602 00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:36,040 Speaker 2: math Rex because like when we start dividing up these 603 00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:41,480 Speaker 2: buckets of tags and then and running the percentages there, 604 00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:43,120 Speaker 2: like where. 605 00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:46,680 Speaker 4: The that. 606 00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:51,279 Speaker 2: Resident non resident allotment? I know, I hear a lot 607 00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:55,920 Speaker 2: of gripe consternation from folks in the state of New Mexico. 608 00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:03,800 Speaker 2: Are they are? Is the the resident New Mexico hunter, 609 00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:09,120 Speaker 2: you know, getting that fair allotment of tags at least 610 00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:15,080 Speaker 2: a fair shot in the draw, I. 611 00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:17,160 Speaker 1: Mean overall, yes, I think so. 612 00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:25,240 Speaker 3: They If you want to hunt elk in New Mexico 613 00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:29,680 Speaker 3: on a regular basis, when you put in for the draw, 614 00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:33,680 Speaker 3: you get three choices right. 615 00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:38,000 Speaker 1: On where, what unit you want to hunt in, and 616 00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:39,200 Speaker 1: what dates. 617 00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:44,880 Speaker 3: You have people who gripe about not getting drawn, And 618 00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:48,439 Speaker 3: they every year they're putting in three choices for the 619 00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:49,560 Speaker 3: heel of wilderness. 620 00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:54,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, like first, second, first season, second season, third season. Yeah, 621 00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:58,200 Speaker 2: that's the prime spot exactly. 622 00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:01,160 Speaker 3: And and they're just shooting themselves in the foot if 623 00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:06,520 Speaker 3: they if they really wanted to hunt elk and put 624 00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:10,520 Speaker 3: meat in the freezer, they'd make a reasonable first choice 625 00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:14,560 Speaker 3: for a bull hunt or an archery hunt, and then 626 00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:18,280 Speaker 3: their other two choices they would set aside for cow hunts. 627 00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:21,640 Speaker 3: And I can guarantee you they'd be hunting every other 628 00:44:21,719 --> 00:44:22,600 Speaker 3: year in New Mexico. 629 00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:27,840 Speaker 2: And and then they're hunting elk every other year in 630 00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:32,799 Speaker 2: New Mexico. Somehow, some way, may not be the may 631 00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:35,360 Speaker 2: not be the the uh the big. 632 00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:39,799 Speaker 3: Right exactly, because they're gonna they're gonna make their first 633 00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:42,279 Speaker 3: choice a bull hunt, whether that's an archery hunt or 634 00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:45,359 Speaker 3: you know, early October hunt. You know, roll the dice 635 00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:48,280 Speaker 3: try to get that bull hunt their other two choices, 636 00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:50,879 Speaker 3: or their last choice. They could make a second choice 637 00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:53,279 Speaker 3: a bull hunt somewhere and make their third choice of 638 00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:56,239 Speaker 3: cow hunting Unit thirty four, Unit thirty six, where there's 639 00:44:56,280 --> 00:45:01,240 Speaker 3: a lot of cowtegs and you're gonna hit those cow draws. 640 00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:03,680 Speaker 3: You might get lucky and hit your first draw for 641 00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:06,719 Speaker 3: bull or a second draw for bull, but your odds 642 00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:08,640 Speaker 3: are going to go way up on a cow hunt. 643 00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:10,799 Speaker 4: Yep, yep. 644 00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:12,959 Speaker 1: So there's opportunity there. 645 00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:15,920 Speaker 3: And the other thing I think too that yes, these 646 00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:18,640 Speaker 3: the archery tags and the rifle bull tags and the 647 00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:23,439 Speaker 3: E plus system, those authorization numbers for those hunts are 648 00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:29,080 Speaker 3: pretty pricey. But your cow hunts, you can get a 649 00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:34,680 Speaker 3: cow hunt for plus or minus one thousand dollars. Now 650 00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:37,600 Speaker 3: for some people that may sound like a lot, but 651 00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:41,759 Speaker 3: if you save fifty bucks one hundred bucks throughout the year, 652 00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:44,320 Speaker 3: you can be hunting a cow elk every year on 653 00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:45,080 Speaker 3: landowner tag. 654 00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:46,400 Speaker 1: Sure. 655 00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:53,239 Speaker 2: The yeah, the the economics of your weekly beer there 656 00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:53,680 Speaker 2: you go. 657 00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:55,799 Speaker 4: You know you're going to talk about that a lot. 658 00:45:56,480 --> 00:46:02,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, But you know, on the flip side, you know 659 00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:05,880 Speaker 2: that that's very much like a cultural thing too, to 660 00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:09,200 Speaker 2: where It's like even if you have the money, you know, 661 00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:13,080 Speaker 2: Montana kid growing up who's always had over the counter tags, 662 00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:19,520 Speaker 2: you just you know, it's like that would be a 663 00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:24,560 Speaker 2: very foreign thing to pay a thousand bucks for a cow, right, Yeah, 664 00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:28,279 Speaker 2: for sure. And that's I think what we run up 665 00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:33,000 Speaker 2: against here is like a culture shock of of Also, 666 00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:42,360 Speaker 2: you know when we talk about those bulls. 667 00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:40,440 Speaker 4: Is it. 668 00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:47,040 Speaker 2: Are we at a place in hunting where not everyone 669 00:46:47,239 --> 00:46:51,600 Speaker 2: deserves a crack at a bowl at you know, on 670 00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:55,919 Speaker 2: a reasonable timescale, right? Are we migrating towards like, well, 671 00:46:55,920 --> 00:47:01,239 Speaker 2: those bulls are going to be mostly an opportunity for 672 00:47:01,480 --> 00:47:06,040 Speaker 2: folks that can afford that. And if you if you're 673 00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:09,759 Speaker 2: not going to fork over big cash, you better get 674 00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:13,160 Speaker 2: real lucky in the draw. And you know, I think 675 00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:16,160 Speaker 2: that's a cultural thing too. 676 00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:20,279 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think that's the concern. I heard Jesse 677 00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:21,040 Speaker 1: say that. 678 00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:25,880 Speaker 3: Hunting elk in New Mexico is becoming a rich man's 679 00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:28,680 Speaker 3: sport and a rich man's opportunity. 680 00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:29,680 Speaker 1: That's that. 681 00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:31,759 Speaker 3: I think that's a little extreme to look at it, 682 00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:35,600 Speaker 3: because there's still a lot of New Mexico residents who 683 00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:40,160 Speaker 3: hunt bulls every year, or you know, not individually every year. 684 00:47:40,200 --> 00:47:41,600 Speaker 1: But eighty four. 685 00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:43,920 Speaker 3: Percent of all those drawbacks go to New Mexico residents 686 00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:48,279 Speaker 3: and they're hunting, you know, whatever they get. So there's 687 00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:55,120 Speaker 3: still definitely an opportunity here for people to hunt elk. Again, 688 00:47:55,200 --> 00:48:00,360 Speaker 3: I can't argue the fact that these private land authorizations 689 00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:06,080 Speaker 3: gosh on the low end for a bull hunt. 690 00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:08,720 Speaker 1: If you can get a bull hunt. 691 00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:13,560 Speaker 3: Or an archery tag for six thousand dollars, yeah, better 692 00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:14,200 Speaker 3: jump on it. 693 00:48:14,640 --> 00:48:15,000 Speaker 4: Really. 694 00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:25,319 Speaker 2: Yeah, way back when the cribs, I can't even tell you, 695 00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:31,920 Speaker 2: probably two thousand seven ish right in there, I got 696 00:48:31,960 --> 00:48:36,400 Speaker 2: a run down and guide in New Mexico, and the 697 00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:40,920 Speaker 2: folks I had that I was guiding it purchased tags 698 00:48:40,960 --> 00:48:45,840 Speaker 2: for I want to say, like twenty three hundred bucks apiece. 699 00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:53,400 Speaker 2: And yeah, you know that was like there was certainly 700 00:48:53,440 --> 00:49:00,280 Speaker 2: big money to me at that point, right, oh yeah, yeah. 701 00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:02,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's kind of it's kind of wild and 702 00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:04,879 Speaker 3: and I have noticed in the eight years since I've 703 00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:09,080 Speaker 3: been here that prices has grown quite a little bit. 704 00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:13,720 Speaker 3: I know a friend of mine when I first came here, 705 00:49:13,920 --> 00:49:16,799 Speaker 3: he purchased a private land tag I think for three 706 00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:19,800 Speaker 3: thousand dollars. It was for a rifle bull hunt, and 707 00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:22,359 Speaker 3: a decent unit, not a trophy unit, but a good unit. 708 00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:26,240 Speaker 3: Him and his buddy bought two for three thousand bucks apiece, 709 00:49:26,600 --> 00:49:32,360 Speaker 3: and now in that same unit, it's it's probably doubled. 710 00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:34,959 Speaker 3: You're looking at five to six thousand. Just to crack 711 00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:38,120 Speaker 3: the door, you know. 712 00:49:38,120 --> 00:49:41,400 Speaker 2: And when we first started here, Rex, you know, we 713 00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:45,399 Speaker 2: brought up Jesse Dubell, and you know, he's a passionate guy, 714 00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:50,000 Speaker 2: and and you know, I think very passionate about the 715 00:49:50,080 --> 00:49:55,200 Speaker 2: state of New Mexico in general. But you said that, 716 00:49:55,800 --> 00:49:59,400 Speaker 2: you know there that you had you could share a 717 00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:04,880 Speaker 2: few criticisms of the E plus program yourself. What would 718 00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:07,200 Speaker 2: some of those be? Like, Like, we kind of had 719 00:50:07,239 --> 00:50:10,239 Speaker 2: an offline conversation just to let you know what what 720 00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:18,840 Speaker 2: I I being the pragmatist. Typically, when there's enough money involved, 721 00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:22,319 Speaker 2: we don't see those programs go away. I know there's 722 00:50:22,360 --> 00:50:27,040 Speaker 2: a fear from some groups and some landowners that E 723 00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:32,000 Speaker 2: plus could totally go away. You know, I'd be shocked 724 00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:35,680 Speaker 2: if that ever happened. I think there'd be so much 725 00:50:35,719 --> 00:50:39,600 Speaker 2: litigation and all the stuff that typically goes with something 726 00:50:39,680 --> 00:50:43,759 Speaker 2: like that. That probably isn't going to happen. But you know, 727 00:50:43,880 --> 00:50:47,399 Speaker 2: I think just as we've talked about on this show 728 00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:51,360 Speaker 2: so far. You know, this program has changed over the years, 729 00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:54,440 Speaker 2: and you've been there to see some of that change. 730 00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:55,360 Speaker 4: I think. 731 00:50:56,640 --> 00:51:03,560 Speaker 2: The reform of the program would be something that is likely. 732 00:51:03,640 --> 00:51:06,200 Speaker 2: We could see that. But what would would some of 733 00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:09,000 Speaker 2: those those points be from from your perspective? 734 00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:16,319 Speaker 1: Well, it's interesting. I think the thing that I. 735 00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:22,759 Speaker 3: Do agree with Jesse is these tags are worth a 736 00:51:22,760 --> 00:51:26,279 Speaker 3: lot of money, and I don't know what to do 737 00:51:26,360 --> 00:51:28,319 Speaker 3: about that. I'm not sure there's anything that can be 738 00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:33,360 Speaker 3: done about it unless somehow Game and Fish can control. 739 00:51:34,719 --> 00:51:36,759 Speaker 1: You know, the price index. But how do you do that? 740 00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:40,280 Speaker 3: Once you issue that authorization, it goes to the landowner, 741 00:51:40,840 --> 00:51:43,960 Speaker 3: and that's part of the problem. I don't like the 742 00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:50,920 Speaker 3: fact that and they Jessee and his crew use this 743 00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:53,400 Speaker 3: a lot. The buy your way to the front of 744 00:51:53,400 --> 00:51:56,360 Speaker 3: the line. I kind of don't like that either, but 745 00:51:56,520 --> 00:52:00,480 Speaker 3: it's it's just a fact of how the system works 746 00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:01,560 Speaker 3: right now. 747 00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:07,640 Speaker 1: And honestly, I don't know if so. 748 00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:13,040 Speaker 3: What the Wildlife Federation would like is for the Commission 749 00:52:13,080 --> 00:52:14,680 Speaker 3: to open the E plus. 750 00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:16,799 Speaker 1: Rule and rewrite it. 751 00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:22,480 Speaker 3: But the problem is nobody's come up with what that 752 00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:26,919 Speaker 3: rewrite would look like. Because you can't take all those 753 00:52:26,960 --> 00:52:31,200 Speaker 3: private land tags and dump them into the public draw 754 00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:37,320 Speaker 3: those and then the ranches have no incentive. 755 00:52:36,920 --> 00:52:38,200 Speaker 1: To open up their property. 756 00:52:38,239 --> 00:52:41,799 Speaker 3: The big ranches that we talked about earlier, they may 757 00:52:41,880 --> 00:52:44,960 Speaker 3: still be able to make it because they're going to 758 00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:48,160 Speaker 3: have elk. They're still going to have. You know, they 759 00:52:48,239 --> 00:52:51,960 Speaker 3: can charge a trespass fee or whatever. But the same people, 760 00:52:52,080 --> 00:52:55,720 Speaker 3: the same New Mexico residents who draw those extra tags, 761 00:52:56,560 --> 00:53:01,240 Speaker 3: can't afford the trespass fee to go on that ranch 762 00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:03,839 Speaker 3: and hunt their elk. So where are they going to go. 763 00:53:04,200 --> 00:53:06,319 Speaker 3: They're going to go on the public land, which is 764 00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:12,400 Speaker 3: going to include over crowding on public land and just 765 00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:19,720 Speaker 3: a less quality experience for the hunters. Game and Fish 766 00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:25,240 Speaker 3: would have to totally revamp the management program for elk 767 00:53:25,680 --> 00:53:29,759 Speaker 3: if the E plus program went away, and I have 768 00:53:29,920 --> 00:53:33,000 Speaker 3: no idea what that would look like, but it would 769 00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:36,280 Speaker 3: be quite different than what a lot of people would expect. 770 00:53:37,120 --> 00:53:40,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And I think, you know, it's kind of 771 00:53:41,160 --> 00:53:44,240 Speaker 2: two sides of the same coin, whatever analogy you want 772 00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:49,160 Speaker 2: to use here, because from my perspective, we need to 773 00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:55,880 Speaker 2: keep hunting accessible for sure hunters. I think there's a 774 00:53:56,000 --> 00:54:01,239 Speaker 2: lot of benefits to that that folks may not consider right, 775 00:54:01,400 --> 00:54:04,080 Speaker 2: like having hunters out there on the landscape, the way 776 00:54:04,160 --> 00:54:09,560 Speaker 2: hunters move across a landscape. And you know, obviously I'm 777 00:54:09,600 --> 00:54:15,640 Speaker 2: talking about like responsible individuals who who care, who are 778 00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:19,600 Speaker 2: stewards of the land and stewards of wildlife. Like it's 779 00:54:19,880 --> 00:54:22,160 Speaker 2: good to have those those folks out there keeping an 780 00:54:22,160 --> 00:54:29,759 Speaker 2: eye on things and standing up for those those big 781 00:54:29,840 --> 00:54:34,040 Speaker 2: chunks of public you know, be a State for a 782 00:54:34,120 --> 00:54:40,080 Speaker 2: service BLM, Bureau of Wreck all the different things out there, right, 783 00:54:40,360 --> 00:54:44,839 Speaker 2: And just as much as you've pointed out, like we 784 00:54:44,920 --> 00:54:47,640 Speaker 2: need those folks on the private side of the fence 785 00:54:47,680 --> 00:54:52,040 Speaker 2: to be invested in habitat as well. 786 00:54:52,080 --> 00:54:54,280 Speaker 1: Yes, right, yeah, yeah, for sure. 787 00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:58,680 Speaker 3: And I want to point out one thing that I 788 00:54:58,719 --> 00:55:03,480 Speaker 3: did disagree with with what Jesse had to say. The 789 00:55:03,600 --> 00:55:08,480 Speaker 3: unit wide properties. I don't remember the exact number. It's 790 00:55:08,520 --> 00:55:12,759 Speaker 3: just under a million acres of unit wide property that 791 00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:16,880 Speaker 3: is now open for public elk. 792 00:55:16,680 --> 00:55:18,799 Speaker 1: Hunters to utilize. 793 00:55:19,680 --> 00:55:23,439 Speaker 3: And it is true that not all of those unit 794 00:55:23,440 --> 00:55:28,319 Speaker 3: wide acres are good during the hunting season, but there's 795 00:55:28,360 --> 00:55:30,759 Speaker 3: a bunch of it that is I've hunted on it, 796 00:55:30,880 --> 00:55:33,120 Speaker 3: I've seen elk on it, I know people who have 797 00:55:33,440 --> 00:55:37,040 Speaker 3: hunted and killed elk on unit wide properties, So there's 798 00:55:37,160 --> 00:55:40,319 Speaker 3: that benefit in and of itself. The other thing that 799 00:55:40,920 --> 00:55:43,480 Speaker 3: these unit wide properties do is provide a lot of 800 00:55:43,640 --> 00:55:49,160 Speaker 3: access through the private into the public, which, as you 801 00:55:49,320 --> 00:55:53,120 Speaker 3: know and many many Western hunters know that that's sometimes 802 00:55:53,120 --> 00:55:56,440 Speaker 3: invaluable to be able to cut through a private piece 803 00:55:56,480 --> 00:56:02,520 Speaker 3: to get back into what would normally be landlocked federal land. 804 00:56:03,600 --> 00:56:07,160 Speaker 3: Now through the e plus system, with the unit wide properties, 805 00:56:08,040 --> 00:56:10,719 Speaker 3: you've got all kinds of access points. You've got in 806 00:56:10,920 --> 00:56:13,600 Speaker 3: holdings in the National Forest that used to you'd hear 807 00:56:13,640 --> 00:56:16,920 Speaker 3: an elk bugle on across the canyon and you'd have 808 00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:20,160 Speaker 3: to go eight miles around this private property to get 809 00:56:20,160 --> 00:56:23,360 Speaker 3: over there. Now if they're in the unit wide program. 810 00:56:23,040 --> 00:56:24,440 Speaker 1: You can just go straight through it. 811 00:56:24,960 --> 00:56:28,920 Speaker 3: And like I said, all those properties are on Onyx, 812 00:56:30,640 --> 00:56:34,120 Speaker 3: so you can see them right there, and it's been 813 00:56:34,160 --> 00:56:40,280 Speaker 3: really great. The other thing that I think is important 814 00:56:40,280 --> 00:56:41,960 Speaker 3: to point out. I touched on it earlier, but we 815 00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:43,480 Speaker 3: didn't really get to talk about it, and that is 816 00:56:43,520 --> 00:56:48,640 Speaker 3: the Habitat and centive program that's inn e plus. 817 00:56:48,760 --> 00:56:49,359 Speaker 1: The Game and. 818 00:56:49,360 --> 00:56:53,040 Speaker 3: Fish process is about two one hundred to two hundred 819 00:56:53,080 --> 00:56:56,520 Speaker 3: and fifty habitat projects that are going on the ground 820 00:56:56,520 --> 00:56:58,799 Speaker 3: for elk, specifically for elk. 821 00:57:00,120 --> 00:57:01,760 Speaker 1: Some of those projects are huge. 822 00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:05,960 Speaker 3: There's a lot of uh, you know, thinning out pinion 823 00:57:06,080 --> 00:57:11,360 Speaker 3: juniper to open up more grasslands. There's water projects that 824 00:57:11,400 --> 00:57:15,440 Speaker 3: are going into areas that are benefiting elk that the 825 00:57:15,560 --> 00:57:18,080 Speaker 3: elk wouldn't normally be using that area if it weren't 826 00:57:18,120 --> 00:57:19,800 Speaker 3: for this habitat project. 827 00:57:19,400 --> 00:57:20,680 Speaker 1: And now there's water there. 828 00:57:22,000 --> 00:57:29,520 Speaker 3: They can get recognition for deferring cattle grazing. So if 829 00:57:30,320 --> 00:57:33,200 Speaker 3: some of these ranches are converting from hunting or from 830 00:57:33,320 --> 00:57:36,640 Speaker 3: cattle ranches to hunting ranches, so if they take the 831 00:57:36,680 --> 00:57:39,320 Speaker 3: cattle off that that can be a habitat and center 832 00:57:39,320 --> 00:57:40,000 Speaker 3: of improvement. 833 00:57:40,800 --> 00:57:41,160 Speaker 1: UH. 834 00:57:41,200 --> 00:57:43,720 Speaker 3: So there's a lot of great things that are going 835 00:57:43,760 --> 00:57:47,640 Speaker 3: on UH because of the E plus program. This Habitat 836 00:57:47,680 --> 00:57:50,520 Speaker 3: and Center program is doing wonderful work on the ground 837 00:57:51,280 --> 00:57:54,840 Speaker 3: UH for New Mexico's elk, elk herds, and elk management 838 00:57:55,640 --> 00:57:59,480 Speaker 3: UH and even the ranches that are in the program, 839 00:58:00,600 --> 00:58:02,640 Speaker 3: there is an incentive there for them to keep their 840 00:58:02,720 --> 00:58:04,840 Speaker 3: ranch in good shape and keep elk. 841 00:58:04,640 --> 00:58:05,600 Speaker 1: On it or around it. 842 00:58:06,880 --> 00:58:10,840 Speaker 3: And like I said earlier, it's definitely a way to 843 00:58:11,080 --> 00:58:15,800 Speaker 3: recognize the importance of the private landowner in New Mexico 844 00:58:16,960 --> 00:58:18,760 Speaker 3: for elk management in the state. 845 00:58:21,240 --> 00:58:22,160 Speaker 1: The other thing that. 846 00:58:22,120 --> 00:58:24,720 Speaker 3: I kind of hate to hear over and over again 847 00:58:24,880 --> 00:58:29,760 Speaker 3: is comparisons of New Mexico to other states. I'm here 848 00:58:29,800 --> 00:58:32,040 Speaker 3: to tell you there's no other state like New Mexico, 849 00:58:36,040 --> 00:58:40,760 Speaker 3: even as far as elk management, elk herds, where these 850 00:58:40,800 --> 00:58:44,840 Speaker 3: elk occur, where they don't occur, right down to the 851 00:58:46,000 --> 00:58:50,040 Speaker 3: traditional landowners who live here, the way the land is 852 00:58:51,360 --> 00:58:57,120 Speaker 3: in many cases parceled out on deeds. There's still some great, 853 00:58:57,160 --> 00:59:00,920 Speaker 3: big ranches, cattle ranches, and then there's a lot of 854 00:59:01,080 --> 00:59:06,160 Speaker 3: historical ranches that have been parceled out into smaller pieces 855 00:59:07,000 --> 00:59:09,560 Speaker 3: that are also very important for elk management. And a 856 00:59:09,600 --> 00:59:16,400 Speaker 3: lot of people just don't understand the complexity of the 857 00:59:16,480 --> 00:59:20,600 Speaker 3: human element and the elk management element in the state 858 00:59:20,640 --> 00:59:23,680 Speaker 3: of New Mexico. It's very hard to compare New Mexico 859 00:59:23,760 --> 00:59:24,640 Speaker 3: to any other state. 860 00:59:25,880 --> 00:59:28,080 Speaker 4: Oh. 861 00:59:28,560 --> 00:59:32,120 Speaker 2: I used to compare elk in New Mexico to Herford bulls. 862 00:59:34,080 --> 00:59:37,760 Speaker 2: I mean, he gets wide bodied bulls down there that 863 00:59:37,840 --> 00:59:40,520 Speaker 2: are just oh yeah, yeah, the great I mean the 864 00:59:40,520 --> 00:59:43,840 Speaker 2: feed down there must be very special. 865 00:59:44,880 --> 00:59:47,720 Speaker 3: Oh well, in certain places there there there's definitely some 866 00:59:47,760 --> 00:59:52,800 Speaker 3: special places that produce these big, big bodied, big antler bulls. 867 00:59:54,000 --> 00:59:56,000 Speaker 1: It's a special place, that's for sure. Yeah. 868 00:59:56,120 --> 01:00:00,200 Speaker 2: Oh, I agree, land of enchantment, It's true. 869 01:00:01,000 --> 01:00:06,840 Speaker 4: So yeah, you know, I think where you know, the. 870 01:00:07,080 --> 01:00:14,640 Speaker 2: The public land hunter, private land owner. One place that 871 01:00:14,680 --> 01:00:17,680 Speaker 2: I think, looking towards the future, that we should really 872 01:00:17,720 --> 01:00:26,360 Speaker 2: get together on would be improving feed on the public 873 01:00:26,400 --> 01:00:31,480 Speaker 2: side of the fence, right like working on noxious weeds 874 01:00:31,520 --> 01:00:40,120 Speaker 2: in these areas, with with grazing allotments, active grazing allotments, 875 01:00:40,160 --> 01:00:44,120 Speaker 2: and you know, I think the habitat improvement on the 876 01:00:44,120 --> 01:00:49,040 Speaker 2: private side of the fence is awesome. I do like 877 01:00:49,120 --> 01:00:55,280 Speaker 2: to point out that that also benefits raising cattle on 878 01:00:55,320 --> 01:00:58,640 Speaker 2: the private side of the fans, which you know, I 879 01:00:58,680 --> 01:01:04,960 Speaker 2: have no problem with. But I don't h I think 880 01:01:04,960 --> 01:01:07,800 Speaker 2: it'd be disingenuous to say we're we're only doing this 881 01:01:07,840 --> 01:01:11,960 Speaker 2: for the elk, because it makes makes the place prettier, 882 01:01:11,960 --> 01:01:14,800 Speaker 2: the kids want to stick around, and and makes makes 883 01:01:14,800 --> 01:01:15,280 Speaker 2: the cat. 884 01:01:15,120 --> 01:01:17,600 Speaker 4: A little fatter too, for sure. 885 01:01:18,440 --> 01:01:26,600 Speaker 2: But I you know, I think the yeah, the the 886 01:01:26,720 --> 01:01:32,600 Speaker 2: juniper removal, the effects that has on the water table, 887 01:01:32,680 --> 01:01:41,360 Speaker 2: the resistance to fire. Sustainable grazing is something that that 888 01:01:41,400 --> 01:01:46,440 Speaker 2: we'd like to see more and more on you know, 889 01:01:47,280 --> 01:01:51,040 Speaker 2: on these Forest Service grounds b l M grounds. And 890 01:01:52,400 --> 01:01:57,160 Speaker 2: I think one way the public hunter could help incentivize 891 01:01:57,720 --> 01:02:04,160 Speaker 2: the landowner relationship is the is the fact that we 892 01:02:04,240 --> 01:02:07,880 Speaker 2: know that there is good sustainable grazing practices that that 893 01:02:07,960 --> 01:02:13,160 Speaker 2: can happen on public land that still provide great hunting opportunity. 894 01:02:14,400 --> 01:02:14,600 Speaker 1: You know. 895 01:02:14,680 --> 01:02:20,200 Speaker 2: The thing that gets thrown against the folks with grazing 896 01:02:20,720 --> 01:02:24,600 Speaker 2: allotments is like, oh, yeah, by the time the hunting 897 01:02:24,640 --> 01:02:26,480 Speaker 2: season rolls around, there's no feed up there and the 898 01:02:26,520 --> 01:02:28,120 Speaker 2: elk don't want to be up there because it's been 899 01:02:28,240 --> 01:02:31,920 Speaker 2: been over grazed like that. That can happen, you know, 900 01:02:32,000 --> 01:02:35,320 Speaker 2: as there's bad hunters out there, just like there's bad 901 01:02:36,680 --> 01:02:37,960 Speaker 2: cattle operators out. 902 01:02:37,800 --> 01:02:41,600 Speaker 4: There too, right for sure. Yeah, but. 903 01:02:44,240 --> 01:02:48,920 Speaker 2: I think there's there's plenty of working across the fence 904 01:02:49,000 --> 01:02:53,280 Speaker 2: on on those types of issues there, and and we 905 01:02:53,320 --> 01:02:59,160 Speaker 2: could increase that that public hunting opportunity by working on 906 01:02:59,240 --> 01:02:59,920 Speaker 2: projects like that. 907 01:03:01,600 --> 01:03:01,800 Speaker 1: Yeah. 908 01:03:01,840 --> 01:03:04,720 Speaker 3: I agree, there's a lot of state and federal land 909 01:03:04,720 --> 01:03:08,840 Speaker 3: out there that's somewhat neglected, and I get it. 910 01:03:09,320 --> 01:03:10,560 Speaker 1: You know, when you're dealing. 911 01:03:10,280 --> 01:03:13,200 Speaker 3: With that much land mass, it takes a mass amount 912 01:03:13,240 --> 01:03:16,840 Speaker 3: of money as well to implement those types of programs. So, 913 01:03:17,200 --> 01:03:22,360 Speaker 3: but any little thing that that these federal land management 914 01:03:22,360 --> 01:03:27,400 Speaker 3: agencies can do to you know, promote the wildlife that 915 01:03:27,520 --> 01:03:31,720 Speaker 3: lived there and the public hunting and public use that takes. 916 01:03:31,520 --> 01:03:34,000 Speaker 1: Place there, it's it's only going to be a plus. 917 01:03:34,040 --> 01:03:36,479 Speaker 3: And and you know, just like the private land owner 918 01:03:36,480 --> 01:03:43,040 Speaker 3: that's improving his land for cattle that benefit elk, the 919 01:03:43,040 --> 01:03:46,880 Speaker 3: federal agencies will be doing projects that benefit wildlife that 920 01:03:46,960 --> 01:03:51,440 Speaker 3: will also benefit the cattle that graze on those allotments 921 01:03:51,480 --> 01:03:55,040 Speaker 3: as well. So it's you know, it's just the flip 922 01:03:55,080 --> 01:03:57,400 Speaker 3: side of the same coin, basically. 923 01:03:57,920 --> 01:03:59,960 Speaker 2: And everything looks better on the other side of the fence. 924 01:04:00,080 --> 01:04:02,520 Speaker 3: We know that well for sure. Yeah, the grass is 925 01:04:02,520 --> 01:04:06,440 Speaker 3: always greener there. Most of what I've talked about is 926 01:04:06,960 --> 01:04:09,720 Speaker 3: what we call our primary management zone. That's where the 927 01:04:09,760 --> 01:04:14,160 Speaker 3: E plus allocation system rests. That's where license numbers are 928 01:04:14,200 --> 01:04:18,160 Speaker 3: set by the Commission and the distribution attacks is very 929 01:04:18,160 --> 01:04:22,960 Speaker 3: strictly regulated. That's the primary management zone, the special Management zone, 930 01:04:23,640 --> 01:04:26,520 Speaker 3: and Jesse de Bell talked about this. 931 01:04:26,520 --> 01:04:27,000 Speaker 1: A little bit. 932 01:04:27,280 --> 01:04:32,160 Speaker 3: That zone is basically two units. It's Unit fifty five 933 01:04:32,280 --> 01:04:38,480 Speaker 3: A and Unit fifty four and those units are largely 934 01:04:38,600 --> 01:04:43,640 Speaker 3: private only, but they're also in a location where Game 935 01:04:43,680 --> 01:04:47,080 Speaker 3: and Fish still wants to have some control over the management. 936 01:04:46,600 --> 01:04:47,960 Speaker 1: There, and the. 937 01:04:49,800 --> 01:04:53,240 Speaker 3: Allocation attacks in the Special Management Zone are a negotiation 938 01:04:53,360 --> 01:04:59,680 Speaker 3: between Game and Fish and the landowner. So if something 939 01:04:59,760 --> 01:05:02,640 Speaker 3: were to happen in the future where elk numbers went 940 01:05:02,720 --> 01:05:05,040 Speaker 3: down and Game and Fish said, hey, we need control 941 01:05:05,080 --> 01:05:09,600 Speaker 3: over these these two particular units, Game and Fish still 942 01:05:09,680 --> 01:05:14,520 Speaker 3: reserves the authority to issue less authorizations to those ranches, 943 01:05:14,760 --> 01:05:16,720 Speaker 3: so it's not just free for all, and they are 944 01:05:16,880 --> 01:05:23,000 Speaker 3: ranch only allocations there. There's there's no unit wide option 945 01:05:23,240 --> 01:05:31,080 Speaker 3: in the Special Management Zone. The Secondary Management Zone is 946 01:05:31,280 --> 01:05:32,760 Speaker 3: basically the rest of the state. 947 01:05:34,000 --> 01:05:36,360 Speaker 1: Uh, there are elk out there. 948 01:05:37,600 --> 01:05:40,760 Speaker 3: But they and and in some of those places there's 949 01:05:40,840 --> 01:05:43,240 Speaker 3: quite a few elk, and there's the there's really good elk. 950 01:05:44,440 --> 01:05:48,480 Speaker 3: But Game and Fish is not concentrated on herd management 951 01:05:48,800 --> 01:05:53,520 Speaker 3: in the Secondary Management Zone, and those licenses are available 952 01:05:54,080 --> 01:05:54,760 Speaker 3: over the counter. 953 01:05:55,800 --> 01:06:00,160 Speaker 1: So in essence, the landowner is. 954 01:05:59,200 --> 01:06:04,320 Speaker 3: Issuing access because I can go You could go buy 955 01:06:04,840 --> 01:06:09,880 Speaker 3: an ELK tag in the Secondary Management Zone right now 956 01:06:10,480 --> 01:06:13,960 Speaker 3: and put that in our pocket, but it would be 957 01:06:14,080 --> 01:06:17,320 Speaker 3: useless unless we had private land with permission to go. 958 01:06:17,240 --> 01:06:22,560 Speaker 2: On because that private land to public land ratio is 959 01:06:23,840 --> 01:06:26,120 Speaker 2: so flipped from like the unit fifteen. 960 01:06:25,840 --> 01:06:31,520 Speaker 3: Example exactly, that's exactly right. There are a few places 961 01:06:31,600 --> 01:06:33,960 Speaker 3: where there is a public hunting elk opportunity in the 962 01:06:33,960 --> 01:06:38,440 Speaker 3: secondary management zone because there is you know, some public 963 01:06:38,520 --> 01:06:41,280 Speaker 3: land there and we can issue a few draw hunts there. 964 01:06:41,800 --> 01:06:45,960 Speaker 3: But basically two things. One, like you said, there's really 965 01:06:45,960 --> 01:06:49,480 Speaker 3: not a public private split that allows a good ratio, 966 01:06:50,080 --> 01:06:53,600 Speaker 3: And the other thing is Game and Fish isn't managing 967 01:06:53,640 --> 01:06:57,160 Speaker 3: the elkerts out there, and a lot of places out there, 968 01:06:57,160 --> 01:07:01,240 Speaker 3: it's places that Game and Fish doesn't want elk, So 969 01:07:01,400 --> 01:07:04,400 Speaker 3: it's kind of a way to help control and regulate 970 01:07:04,480 --> 01:07:10,080 Speaker 3: that herd without having to manage it so intensely. And then, 971 01:07:10,200 --> 01:07:15,040 Speaker 3: and any anybody who wants to look at this elk 972 01:07:15,120 --> 01:07:18,040 Speaker 3: management zones, if you go to the Game and Fish website, 973 01:07:18,160 --> 01:07:22,560 Speaker 3: you can see the where the primary zone is, where 974 01:07:22,600 --> 01:07:24,560 Speaker 3: the special management zone is, and then the. 975 01:07:24,480 --> 01:07:26,880 Speaker 1: Rest of the state is secondary management zone. 976 01:07:27,200 --> 01:07:29,480 Speaker 2: But if you're looking for opportunity out there, it might 977 01:07:29,520 --> 01:07:33,360 Speaker 2: be better to figure out the access before you go 978 01:07:34,160 --> 01:07:35,120 Speaker 2: figuring out the tag. 979 01:07:36,080 --> 01:07:39,120 Speaker 3: Absolutely, yeah, you'd want to try to find access on 980 01:07:39,160 --> 01:07:42,360 Speaker 3: a private ranch where there was definitely some elk come 981 01:07:42,440 --> 01:07:46,520 Speaker 3: up with that agreement, that access agreement with the landowner. Again, 982 01:07:46,600 --> 01:07:50,480 Speaker 3: you're be paying a trespass fee basically and then secure 983 01:07:50,560 --> 01:07:51,200 Speaker 3: your tag. 984 01:07:52,280 --> 01:07:52,560 Speaker 4: I would. 985 01:07:52,560 --> 01:07:55,560 Speaker 2: I would imagine there's probably a couple outfitters out there too. 986 01:07:55,440 --> 01:07:57,160 Speaker 4: Though, right, Oh yeah, thank you. 987 01:07:57,200 --> 01:08:00,280 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, there's there's some outfitters who outfit in 988 01:08:00,360 --> 01:08:02,200 Speaker 3: the secondary management zone for sure. 989 01:08:03,120 --> 01:08:06,520 Speaker 2: And boy, there's there's so much to cover in the 990 01:08:06,520 --> 01:08:07,760 Speaker 2: state of New Mexico racks. 991 01:08:08,800 --> 01:08:09,200 Speaker 1: Yeah. 992 01:08:09,440 --> 01:08:11,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm just opening up a can of worms here. 993 01:08:11,480 --> 01:08:14,560 Speaker 2: I would love to talk talk with you about antelope 994 01:08:14,560 --> 01:08:15,280 Speaker 2: one of these days. 995 01:08:16,000 --> 01:08:16,320 Speaker 4: Yeah. 996 01:08:16,360 --> 01:08:19,599 Speaker 3: Well, I supervised that program when it was a plus 997 01:08:19,880 --> 01:08:22,360 Speaker 3: and I was there for the transition to over the counter. 998 01:08:23,240 --> 01:08:23,439 Speaker 4: Yeah. 999 01:08:23,479 --> 01:08:26,080 Speaker 2: That that's a fascinating thing thing to me too. 1000 01:08:26,880 --> 01:08:27,120 Speaker 1: Yep. 1001 01:08:27,439 --> 01:08:33,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I've seen the popularity of that animal 1002 01:08:33,960 --> 01:08:40,840 Speaker 2: increase wildly. Oh yeah, as like a real trophy type 1003 01:08:40,840 --> 01:08:45,160 Speaker 2: of species, absolutely, which I think it probably always should 1004 01:08:45,200 --> 01:08:49,560 Speaker 2: have been there in my perspective, but it's it's interesting 1005 01:08:49,600 --> 01:08:51,800 Speaker 2: that that's gotten pretty wild too. 1006 01:08:52,840 --> 01:08:53,240 Speaker 1: Yeah. 1007 01:08:53,400 --> 01:08:56,160 Speaker 2: I mean, I think it's it's well needed perspective recks 1008 01:08:56,200 --> 01:09:02,160 Speaker 2: from the state side and the outfitting side, you know, 1009 01:09:02,280 --> 01:09:07,120 Speaker 2: I think even when Jesse was on we did hit 1010 01:09:07,160 --> 01:09:12,560 Speaker 2: the fact that there's that opportunity that exists through the 1011 01:09:12,640 --> 01:09:18,960 Speaker 2: draw through the E plus system, we are still needing 1012 01:09:19,040 --> 01:09:21,880 Speaker 2: to I think there's still a need right to still 1013 01:09:22,000 --> 01:09:33,280 Speaker 2: explore that that equitable opportunity for our our wildlife right 1014 01:09:33,320 --> 01:09:35,560 Speaker 2: and it's our wildlife, whether on the private side or 1015 01:09:35,600 --> 01:09:39,960 Speaker 2: the public side of the fence. And how do we 1016 01:09:40,320 --> 01:09:47,400 Speaker 2: keep landowners vested in in wildlife? How do we and 1017 01:09:47,479 --> 01:09:54,480 Speaker 2: how do we keep our hunters out there vested in wildlife? 1018 01:09:54,479 --> 01:09:56,720 Speaker 2: And then the stewardship of the land that I think 1019 01:09:56,760 --> 01:10:00,519 Speaker 2: goes hand in hand with the pursuit of wild life. 1020 01:10:01,160 --> 01:10:06,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I agree one hundred percent. I know one 1021 01:10:06,080 --> 01:10:10,840 Speaker 3: of the biggest issues that Wildlife Federation has with this 1022 01:10:10,880 --> 01:10:17,400 Speaker 3: whole program is their interpretation that it's privatizing the wildlife away, 1023 01:10:17,479 --> 01:10:22,040 Speaker 3: you know, a public resource that's been privatized. We could, 1024 01:10:22,520 --> 01:10:25,120 Speaker 3: you know, split hairs a little bit on that and say, 1025 01:10:25,920 --> 01:10:29,280 Speaker 3: you know, in support of the E plus program that 1026 01:10:29,400 --> 01:10:35,400 Speaker 3: it actually does provide an opportunity. It's still producing elk management, 1027 01:10:35,479 --> 01:10:40,240 Speaker 3: it's still a democratic process, it's still generating revenue for 1028 01:10:40,280 --> 01:10:43,479 Speaker 3: the game and fish. It's part of the management program. 1029 01:10:43,560 --> 01:10:47,160 Speaker 3: I mean, we can split hairs on that. I understand 1030 01:10:47,240 --> 01:10:50,280 Speaker 3: where he's coming from. I don't agree with it one 1031 01:10:50,360 --> 01:10:55,759 Speaker 3: hundred percent, but again, this is this is a unique 1032 01:10:55,800 --> 01:10:59,439 Speaker 3: program that's unique to New Mexico. It's unique to New 1033 01:10:59,439 --> 01:11:04,200 Speaker 3: Mexico ELK management, and like I mentioned, if if it 1034 01:11:04,320 --> 01:11:06,280 Speaker 3: goes away, I don't know what we replace it with. 1035 01:11:06,400 --> 01:11:09,559 Speaker 2: To be quite honest, Yeah, well, I mean I think 1036 01:11:09,600 --> 01:11:12,599 Speaker 2: we all all know. You know, people made it, so 1037 01:11:12,640 --> 01:11:17,000 Speaker 2: it can't be perfect. Tell you the plenty of room 1038 01:11:17,600 --> 01:11:20,800 Speaker 2: to tinker and improve here. So I think as long 1039 01:11:20,840 --> 01:11:26,880 Speaker 2: as we can keep the folks vested in the wildlife, 1040 01:11:28,320 --> 01:11:30,519 Speaker 2: then we're going to figure out a way to win, 1041 01:11:32,680 --> 01:11:40,160 Speaker 2: versus being more concerned with the people part of it. 1042 01:11:42,240 --> 01:11:45,040 Speaker 2: But Rex, thank you so much for coming on. I 1043 01:11:45,080 --> 01:11:47,760 Speaker 2: appreciate you reaching out and just giving us some more 1044 01:11:47,760 --> 01:11:51,880 Speaker 2: context and perspective from both the outfitter side of things 1045 01:11:51,880 --> 01:11:57,679 Speaker 2: and from the the former state employee side of things 1046 01:11:57,720 --> 01:12:03,760 Speaker 2: to right and and for everybody listening out there, if 1047 01:12:03,760 --> 01:12:08,080 Speaker 2: you have more questions on this topic, we'll definitely cover 1048 01:12:08,200 --> 01:12:11,040 Speaker 2: them again. Just right into a s K C a L. 1049 01:12:11,120 --> 01:12:13,680 Speaker 2: That's Askcal at the Meat Eater dot com. If you 1050 01:12:13,720 --> 01:12:19,960 Speaker 2: have a question specifically for Rex Martinsen here, please right 1051 01:12:20,040 --> 01:12:23,000 Speaker 2: into the same place. We can always get Rex back 1052 01:12:23,040 --> 01:12:25,840 Speaker 2: on the show, or I can connect with them and 1053 01:12:25,880 --> 01:12:31,599 Speaker 2: get those questions addressed for you. So again, that's ask 1054 01:12:31,840 --> 01:12:34,320 Speaker 2: C A L. That's Askcal at the meeteater dot com, 1055 01:12:35,040 --> 01:12:36,880 Speaker 2: right and let us know what's going on in your 1056 01:12:36,880 --> 01:12:41,160 Speaker 2: neck of the woods. We appreciate it, Rex, anything else, I. 1057 01:12:41,040 --> 01:12:41,599 Speaker 1: Think that's it. 1058 01:12:41,800 --> 01:12:43,599 Speaker 3: I've probably taken enough time today. 1059 01:12:44,120 --> 01:12:46,080 Speaker 1: Thanks for having me on Cal. I appreciate it. 1060 01:12:46,800 --> 01:12:49,120 Speaker 2: Thank you, and have a great rest of your season. 1061 01:12:49,600 --> 01:13:06,040 Speaker 1: Right on you too. Thanks by