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Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,

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Speaker 1: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

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Speaker 1: it's affiliates or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true

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Speaker 2: crime all the time. It's Thursday, September fourth. We are

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Speaker 2: almost to Friday, everybody, so welcome to a great night.

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Speaker 3: We have a stack night of headlines.

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Speaker 2: I mean, listen, what is the deal with this missing

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Speaker 2: minute in this epstein.

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Speaker 3: Oh prison tape issue.

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Speaker 2: There's been so much debate about this, so we're going

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Speaker 2: to break down some of the facts real time.

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Speaker 3: We absolutely want your opinion on that as well.

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Speaker 2: There was also this critical day in court today with

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Speaker 2: Emmanuel Harrow's parents. They've been accused of his death and

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Speaker 2: they are pleading not guilty. And we have the greatest

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Speaker 2: guest to the Queen of DNA herself. She is the

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Speaker 2: Queen of sequencing is what they call it in DNA talk.

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Speaker 2: And you know Ceci is Cecmore. She is the person,

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Speaker 2: she is the woman. We saw her many many years ago,

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Speaker 2: I want to say, on sixty minutes and I was

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Speaker 2: gobsmacked by her. So having her here is a really

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Speaker 2: big dale, seriously almost as starstruck.

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Speaker 3: As when I met you. She's a powerhouse.

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Speaker 2: She's the real DL. So it's a great night too.

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Speaker 2: Involved in so many critical cases. This is the wave

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Speaker 2: of the future in terms of forensics. So if you

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Speaker 2: have a question for her, also please jump in eight

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Speaker 2: eight eight three one crime. You could also leave us

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Speaker 2: a talk back on our iHeartRadio app. It's free, or

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Speaker 2: just hit us up on the socials at True Crime

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Speaker 2: Tonight show on TikTok at Instagram, or at True Crime

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Speaker 2: Tonight on Facebook. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here as always with

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Speaker 2: Courtney Armstrong and body move in high ladies, I live.

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Speaker 2: I'm fighting a little bit of an allergy thing, so

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Speaker 2: I know it's a little annoying.

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Speaker 3: I apologize. I feel good.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I'm just extremeation some fall in the

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Speaker 2: crazy changing weather everywhere.

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Speaker 3: So I'm telling you don't get some ginger ale. It

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Speaker 3: is literally really for everything. Oh yeah, yes, ginger ginger.

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Speaker 2: I mean that actually really makes sense the sprite, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: girl does.

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Speaker 3: That unless you had some ginger like flavoring, maybe stomach

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Speaker 3: digestion and all. I will put ginger on everything it's

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Speaker 3: kind of like a cure all for everything. You broke

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Speaker 3: your bone, drink a ginger ale.

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Speaker 2: Oh that's kidding, Okay, So I'm going to actually make

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Speaker 2: that happen while we're on this show.

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Speaker 3: And by the way, if there are.

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Speaker 2: Any some like helpful tips and tricks and clear up

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Speaker 2: a little hay fever, do tell we are all years

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Speaker 2: at least I am specifically so yeah, and then listen.

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Speaker 2: In the most probably critical part of tonight's night, Granny

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Speaker 2: accused of killing her her son in law.

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Speaker 3: Big day in court today.

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Speaker 2: The verdict is in and body's going to break that

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Speaker 2: down for us entirely. Let's start there, Boddy, go ahead,

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Speaker 2: tell us, so what happened in court today?

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Speaker 3: Do we have a drum roll.

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Speaker 4: Lah?

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Speaker 3: Like at the ready? Yes? Fortunately not at the ready? Yeah,

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Speaker 3: Oh okay, it's a little more of a search appearance.

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Speaker 3: That's okay. I was you know, I got to keep

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Speaker 3: the guys on their toes, right, we need a band,

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Speaker 3: that's what we can't be perfect we do. Uh, you

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Speaker 3: are perfect in my eyes. Well, guess what Granny is guilty.

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Speaker 3: Granny is guilty guilty, So Donna Adelson, she was found

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Speaker 3: guilty in the hired hit of her daughter's ex husband,

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Speaker 3: Dan Markel in Florida. The jury only deliberated for three

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Speaker 3: hours today, so today where it's closing arguments. The closing

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Speaker 3: arguments ended. The jury went into deliberation at four eighteen pm,

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Speaker 3: and listen, I thought that it was done. I did

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Speaker 3: our work on the rundown, up all my notes from

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Speaker 3: watching closing arguments, and went about my day. Twenty minutes

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Speaker 3: before we meet to go live on the show, the

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Speaker 3: verdict comes in and I had to redo everything. I

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Speaker 3: was like, ah, so, yeah, guilty. And there was an

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Speaker 3: audible gasp from her when she got the verdict and

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Speaker 3: she started like crying, and the judge like admonished her,

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Speaker 3: like publicly, like calmed down, you know, like it was

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Speaker 3: I was embarrassed for her.

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Speaker 2: It was.

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Speaker 3: It was a scene.

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Speaker 2: So Granny, it felt like, was visibly surprised, like she

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Speaker 2: thought she.

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Speaker 3: Was going to walk. I do think so, I do

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Speaker 3: think so. So the jury delivered this really dramatic blow

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Speaker 3: to this Nelison. This is not the first person in

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Speaker 3: her family to be convicted of this crime. Okay, so

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Speaker 3: her son Charlie, the dentist, he's already been convicted, didn't she.

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Speaker 2: Throw him under the bus too, though, and basically said,

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Speaker 2: Charlie made me do it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, she drew her son under the bus, and in

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Speaker 3: closing arguments, her lawyer also threw her daughter, Wendy under

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Speaker 3: the bus.

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Speaker 4: Has not been charged, so I thought, yeah, her attorney

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Speaker 4: Wendy dirty.

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Speaker 3: So we might be talking about a Wendy trial coming up,

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Speaker 3: you know, stay tuned for that. But yeah, threw under

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Speaker 3: the bus, and I'll get into that if we want

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Speaker 3: to go into the nitty gritty. I got it all

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Speaker 3: typed it all up for the closing arguments that I

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Speaker 3: was going to present tonight. But yeah, things change. So

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Speaker 3: they found seventy five year old Donna Edelson guilty of

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Speaker 3: first degree murder, conspiracy, and solicitation of murder in the

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Speaker 3: twenty fourteen contract killing of reformer son in law Florida

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Speaker 3: State University law professor Danielle. Daniel Danielle. It's not Danielle.

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Speaker 3: Daniel French I did Daniel you know in the case,

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Speaker 3: it's been in the Florida It's mesmerized by the whole

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Speaker 3: state of Florida for the past ten years. This has

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Speaker 3: been ongoing. At the moment of the verdict, she audibly

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Speaker 3: glack gasped, tears flowed, and she really began to like

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Speaker 3: kind of shake. The court paused proceedings briefly to allow

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Speaker 3: her to compose herself, amid stern admonishment from Judge Stephen

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Speaker 3: Everett to reign in her emotions, like how embarrassing. Marcel's mother, Ruth,

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Speaker 3: the victim in this case, delivered a really searing victim

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Speaker 3: impact statement shortly afterward, and she was saying that for

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Speaker 3: over a decade, her whole family has been in anguish.

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Speaker 3: She said, I'm gonna quote here. We have lost a treasure.

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Speaker 3: My son Dan's life was cut tragically short at forty

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Speaker 3: one years old, she said, describing a life of you know,

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Speaker 3: scarred by grief. Now you know that she lost her son.

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Speaker 2: I mean could not be Yeah, he was a really

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Speaker 2: successful man. And these are women that attended their kid's

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Speaker 2: wedding together, do you know what I mean? They's their

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Speaker 2: mother in law's together now obviously very torn apart, couldn't it?

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Speaker 3: What were you going to say? Oh, just what a waste?

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Speaker 4: And also, this is the father of your grand children

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Speaker 4: for whom you're allegedly in whatever kind of backwards mind

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Speaker 4: she had working for her doing this for and now

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Speaker 4: their father is dead and grandma's attorney is throwing the

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Speaker 4: kid's mother, who has not been charged, under the bus, So.

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Speaker 2: Let's just do an actual body cut account here. So

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Speaker 2: Granny decides she wants Wendy, her daughter, to live closer

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Speaker 2: to her with the two children, and then Dad victim says, no, dice, no,

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Speaker 2: we can't leave. I have a job, I'm at the university.

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Speaker 2: I got a good thing going here. That's not going

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Speaker 2: I love my kids.

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Speaker 3: I love my kids, period the ends. So then Granny's

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Speaker 3: not having that.

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Speaker 2: So Granny potentially allegedly allegedly allegedly lists her son or.

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Speaker 3: By not allegedly allegedly allegedly anymore Granny.

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Speaker 2: So Granny gets her son Charlie in the mix. The

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Speaker 2: dentist also has a lot going for him. Yeah, has

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Speaker 2: a little bit of a girlfriend. The girlfriend, though a

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Speaker 2: little bit, she has some dangerous friends. So you know,

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Speaker 2: Granny loves her son. Son is saying, you know, my

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Speaker 2: girlfriend has some odd people in her circles, a lot

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Speaker 2: of King's connections, and maybe we can off this guy

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Speaker 2: and get him out of our way. And then the

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Speaker 2: plot begins. They sit around and have murder meetings, Courtney,

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Speaker 2: what is this reminding you of the massacre as a family?

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Speaker 3: Think about? How did think about that? Yeah, I mean

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Speaker 3: it's next level.

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Speaker 2: And then you're also as a mother, which is why

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Speaker 2: Granny is extra crazed. Granny is putting her own children

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Speaker 2: in the way here. Not only is she putting them

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Speaker 2: in the line of fire for prison time, she's also

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Speaker 2: putting them in a very dangerous situation as well to

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Speaker 2: do her dirty work. So it's a little Manson esque, right,

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Speaker 2: like I'm not gonna get my hands dirty. I'll let

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Speaker 2: those around me get their hands dirty. It's crazy thinking,

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Speaker 2: really when you imagine something like this, and now.

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Speaker 3: She's throwing her daughter under the bus.

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Speaker 4: Well, I love how Granny's defense attorney did defend her,

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Speaker 4: and that was a tough job. It was, so I

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Speaker 4: feel I feel I should backtrack what I said about

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Speaker 4: her outfit yesterday. But you know what she what she

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Speaker 4: said about very nice she was she did. Yes, you

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Speaker 4: know she's a mother, not a meddler, right, I mean

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Speaker 4: I would say that's entirely untrue. Right, This would prove

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Speaker 4: that that is very much not the case, that she's

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Speaker 4: very much of.

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Speaker 3: What the jury says. That's what the jury says. So

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Speaker 3: the killing was executed by two hitman, which we've kind

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Speaker 3: of already talked about a little bit. They were Sigfredo

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Speaker 3: Garcia and he received a life sentence, and then Louis Rivera.

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Speaker 3: He worked with prosecution and like kind of testified against people,

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Speaker 3: so he got nineteen years after his cooperation. Donna's son,

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Speaker 3: Charlie the dentist, he got life in prison for his

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Speaker 3: role in hiring the hitmen. And the goal between Catherine

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Speaker 3: the girlfriend, right, the one who had the Latin King's

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Speaker 3: connections to the gang and hired the hitmen. She acted

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Speaker 3: as kind of like the go between. She also got

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Speaker 3: life in prison. So literally four people got life in

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Speaker 3: prison and one got nineteen years, and there might be

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Speaker 3: more coming who knows, who knows?

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Speaker 4: Bulator Yeah, wow, absolutely agrees.

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Speaker 3: As a reminder, she was arrested in twenty twenty three

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Speaker 3: as she attempted to board a one way flight to

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Speaker 3: Vietnam again and that's a country without an extradition agreement

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Speaker 3: with the United States, just weeks after her son's conviction,

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Speaker 3: So she knew what was coming, right, She knew the

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Speaker 3: arrest was coming as soon as Charlie was convicted, and

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Speaker 3: she tried to get the heck out of here and

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Speaker 3: go to Vietnam, where she knew she wouldn't have to

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Speaker 3: come back to the United States.

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Speaker 2: I'm kind of curious where dad is, where's Granny's husband's

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Speaker 2: where's Grandpa.

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Speaker 3: We're going to find out about that. I don't know

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Speaker 3: his level of involvement, if anything, it might be nothing.

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Speaker 3: I'm hesitant to say anything about him. I do. Maybe

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Speaker 3: he's kind of being gone. He had a killer, I

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Speaker 3: don't know, many many years perhaps, and his son and

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Speaker 3: maybe even his daughter, oh right, Wendy's daughter, his son, Charlie.

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Speaker 3: I don't know. I don't know what's going to happen

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Speaker 3: with him. I really, I really don't. I'm kind of

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Speaker 3: hesitant to He's.

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Speaker 2: Really been I kept out of the research that I'm

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Speaker 2: saying too. He really has close to entirely been kept

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Speaker 2: out of it. For a hot second, I even questioned

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Speaker 2: was Grandpa working for the prosecution, because he's really like

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Speaker 2: never being mentioned here other than like, ooh, surprise, I'm

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Speaker 2: at the airport on a one way ticket with my

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Speaker 2: wife and Granny gets arrested. He does not right, did

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Speaker 2: he maybe tip them off that they were going to

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Speaker 2: be on that flight. This is all again, I am

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Speaker 2: I am on a limb. This is based on nothing.

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Speaker 3: No, but you might be onto something. I mean, it

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Speaker 3: is possible. I mean, listen, this is a family that's

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Speaker 3: going to be spending the rest of their life in

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Speaker 3: prison for trying to to get control over the closer

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Speaker 3: to their family. Yeah, yeah, to get closer to their family.

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Speaker 3: And now they're all separated. Oh and by the way,

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Speaker 3: do you guys remember Sarah Boone. No, Sarah Boone killed

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Speaker 3: her boyfriend by locking him in that clock that suitcase.

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Speaker 3: Oh my goodness, yes, Okay, Well, I think she's going

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Speaker 3: to be in the same prison as Donna. I think

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Speaker 3: they're going to be in prison together. Sarah, the crazy Sarah,

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Speaker 3: by the way, she keeps like, you know, she fired

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Speaker 3: like all her attorneys crazy trial always firing her, yes,

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Speaker 3: or they're quitting on her because she insane. I think

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Speaker 3: she's going to be in the same prison as Donna.

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Speaker 3: I really do. I don't know for sure. Sentencing is

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Speaker 3: going to be in October, so we'll keep everybody updated

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Speaker 3: on all that. But there's a mandatory minimum of life.

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Speaker 2: I do believe, and Granny's not going home anytime soon,

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Speaker 2: so we know that she's never going home again. And

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Speaker 2: then mom daughter of Granny is Wendy. Wendy is Wendy

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Speaker 2: not been involved. Her husband or now ex husband was

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Speaker 2: the victim. The kids are with her, she's raising them

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Speaker 2: while now her brother and mother both behind bars, along

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Speaker 2: with brother's ex girlfriend m H and a hit man

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Speaker 2: to the two hitmen, Yeah, the two hitmen never gets

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Speaker 2: away with it, by the way, literally no, never. I

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Speaker 2: don't know, it's just it never seems like they.

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Speaker 3: Ever get it. They're the first to go right, and

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Speaker 3: they're probably going to be the first to blab too.

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Speaker 3: They got no you know, emotional connection to the people

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Speaker 3: that hire them, right. I mean, if I listen, if

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Speaker 3: I was a hit man, I'm throwing you under the

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Speaker 3: bus if I get caught, I'm telling you right now. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: it's to save my own butt, right Like, Okay, what's it?

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Speaker 3: What's the money to me? I can't use it now,

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Speaker 3: so I'm gonna try to save my skin and testify

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Speaker 3: against everybody. I's a hitman. You're grading on a very

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Speaker 3: big moral curve, right, Like, do not hire me to

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Speaker 3: be your hit man, because I'm squealing. I promise you

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Speaker 3: that to save my own hide one hundred percent.

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Speaker 4: Well, if you want to ask Body any questions except

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Speaker 4: for will you be my hit man, you can give

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Speaker 4: us a call. We're at eight and eight three to

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Speaker 4: one crime. This, of course is crime tonight.

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Speaker 3: And Body.

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Speaker 4: That was a great summation of Granny. Yeah, what a case. Yeah, no,

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Speaker 4: she really you know.

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Speaker 3: I kind of wonder though, So Wendy got limited immunity

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Speaker 3: for testifying because she did have some information and they

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Speaker 3: but the prosecution has said that that that doesn't mean

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Speaker 3: charges won't be coming to her. So I don't know

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Speaker 3: what kind of immunity she's going to be or what

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Speaker 3: kind of immunity she has. I didn't really look into

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Speaker 3: it too deeply. I kind of want to now that

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Speaker 3: it's over and I have some time because I'm not

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Speaker 3: going to be watching this all day. Yeah, because I've

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Speaker 3: been obsessed with us in wait friend.

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Speaker 2: Mine has so daughter has semi limited extent of which

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Speaker 2: we do not know. And is it possible that Wendy

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Speaker 2: is the one who put the nail in the coffin

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Speaker 2: on Granny?

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Speaker 3: I don't know. Well, in the defense's closing arguments, it

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Speaker 3: says that you might be sitting in that jury room thinking, well,

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Speaker 3: Charlie did it, and it sure looks like Wendy did it.

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Speaker 3: They totally threw her under the bus in the closing arguments.

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Speaker 3: Threw under the bus. You never know what happens behind

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Speaker 3: closed doors. This was an affluent family.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, listen, Granny, act in haste and repent at your leisure.

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Speaker 2: Now we're so glad you're with us because we're going

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Speaker 2: to discuss this newly released information about what could have

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Speaker 2: been happening in Brian Coberger's mind.

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Speaker 3: First of all, the photos.

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Speaker 2: Of his apartment have been released, and we promised an unpack,

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Speaker 2: so we're going to get to some of that very

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Speaker 2: very shortly. And also in the second hour, we're talking

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Speaker 2: to renowned scientists see Seymore about a groundbreaking case that

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Speaker 2: she's working on currently.

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Speaker 3: But also just she is the person.

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Speaker 2: She is the original og queen of DNA sequencing, So

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Speaker 2: if you have any questions, please jump in share them.

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Speaker 2: We're happy to share them with her as well. Eight

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Speaker 2: eight eight three one crime or just leave us.

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Speaker 3: A talk back. So first though, we have.

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Speaker 2: To get to this Epstein missing minute. What is happening

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Speaker 2: in Courtney Armstrong, what do you think?

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Speaker 4: Okay, I have information, but it raises more questions for

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Speaker 4: me anyway than answers. Okay, all of us may very

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Speaker 4: likely remember that there was a missing one minute in

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Speaker 4: the surveillance footage from Jeffrey Epstein's.

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Speaker 3: Jail cell, so the night that he died, that's.

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Speaker 4: Correct, from the night that he died, And what we

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Speaker 4: were told by Pam BONDI was, Oh, this happens every

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Speaker 4: single night at the prison. It resets, they lose a minute.

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Speaker 4: It's the video system. So that's what we were told. Okay,

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Speaker 4: seems odd, but there we are. Anyway, that minute has

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Speaker 4: now reappeared, which of course contradicts the official claims of

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Speaker 4: that minute that we were told about, and it raises

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Speaker 4: a bunch of new questions about oversight, transparency in the case,

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Speaker 4: all the things.

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Speaker 2: And just to kind of reset on that a little bit,

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Speaker 2: the big suspicion is that Jeffrey Epstein accused sex trafficker

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Speaker 2: and convicted sex trafficker. I might add that he committed

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Speaker 2: suicide in his jail cell, and they had released footage

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Speaker 2: that would prove that there was nothing nefarious behind that,

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Speaker 2: because it was also alleged, maybe by conspiracy theorists, that

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Speaker 2: he was actually murdered in a very specific amount of time.

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Speaker 2: That all seems like crazy talk until we started talking

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Speaker 2: to forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan. And then and then

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Speaker 2: and then this is backed by men. This is no

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Speaker 2: longer a theory that maybe he was killed and it

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Speaker 2: wasn't suicide. So they released the tapes. But then there's

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Speaker 2: a missing minute of these tapes. And we talked about

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Speaker 2: this to nauseum earlier in the you know, we first

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Speaker 2: kicked off, you know, about the metadata and the timing,

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Speaker 2: and it just seemed crazy. But it was fine because

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Speaker 2: Pam Bondi, as you mentioned, Court Attorney General, said no, no, no,

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Speaker 2: that's like status quo.

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Speaker 3: That's what happens every night we miss a.

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Speaker 2: Minute because it's like the VHS tape somehow reboots or

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Speaker 2: not to get super in the sauce on the technical stuff.

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Speaker 2: There seems to be no technical stuff at play here.

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Speaker 2: So it was all like swept under the rug. And

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Speaker 2: now this minute is back and it's making people even

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Speaker 2: more enraged it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well it's I feel like my insult I feel

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Speaker 3: like my intelligence is being insulted. Constantly.

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Speaker 4: Well, that's exactly right, Body, because this minute, which is

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Speaker 4: miraculously back video experts have noted not minor technical issues,

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Speaker 4: but really serious, absolutely glaring technical inconsistencies within this new footage.

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Speaker 3: So the resolution is degraded. That means it just it

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Speaker 3: doesn't look.

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Speaker 2: As crisp, it's like pixelated almost.

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Speaker 3: Yes, and go ahead, No, no, it's okay. Continue.

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Speaker 4: There's missing metadata, which Body schooled us about, which shows

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Speaker 4: you know, the authenticity of where something comes from. And

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Speaker 4: also the frame rate, which means how fast things go by,

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Speaker 4: went from nearly thirty to four. What that means is

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Speaker 4: you can see it with your eyeballs that it's it's different.

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Speaker 3: It's simply different different, and it's digitally different. I mean

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Speaker 3: you can tell immediately it's different exactly.

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Speaker 2: And this was being supplied to us by the House

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Speaker 2: Committee Oversight Commission, right, because that's the same the House

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Speaker 2: Oversight Committee. Rather, they are also the ones who gave

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Speaker 2: us the recent document dump that also has been criticized

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Speaker 2: for being you know, very repetitive, and also that ninety

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Speaker 2: seven percent of those documents were already in the public domain.

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Speaker 3: But again, there's two sides to all of this.

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Speaker 2: Or is it possible that this is the missing one

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Speaker 2: minute and everybody had it wrong and they were just confused.

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Speaker 2: And granted, it is a fairly critical minute because Jeffrey

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Speaker 2: Epstein died allegedly during you know, this is the night.

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Speaker 3: All of those minutes kind of count to.

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Speaker 2: Put together a really good forensance profile of what could

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Speaker 2: have happened. But you know, here we are, why would

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Speaker 2: they feed it to us though if they knew it

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Speaker 2: was going to be inconsistent?

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Speaker 3: And I don't know what's worse? Okay, let's play it out,

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Speaker 3: just work out. Let's just like work through it exactly.

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Speaker 3: What's worse? Is it that Pam Bondie and the government

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Speaker 3: lied to us about the missing minute, meaning that the

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Speaker 3: jail doesn't over you know, reboot or whatever.

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Speaker 2: Dan Bojino did too, so damn you also doubles down

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Speaker 2: on the mysterious missing at night because that was standard stuff.

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Speaker 3: So is it is what's worse that they lied to us?

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Speaker 3: Or maybe that's what the prison told them and they

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Speaker 3: didn't even investigate it. So what's worse that dark they

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Speaker 3: didn't even look into it to verify that this is

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Speaker 3: what happens every night at midnight or that they lied

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Speaker 3: to us into our faces about it well, and that

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Speaker 3: they didn't even think we would notice.

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Speaker 4: Well, exactly right, and but it was also.

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Speaker 3: I am making everybody sneezy.

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Speaker 2: I this is okay, everybody needs here's the ginger asap.

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Speaker 3: I need a butler. I need my friends in Michigan

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Speaker 3: to send us. Why don't we all have room service?

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Speaker 3: Oh shoot, there's no room service?

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Speaker 4: Sorry, court, Yeah, buddy, it's all insulting because as you

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Speaker 4: said this, you know whether it wasn't investigated, which doesn't

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Speaker 4: make any sense because my understanding, and that is that

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Speaker 4: this information was at at points or all points in

401
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Speaker 4: the hands of the FBI and the CIA to mention

402
00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:16,119
Speaker 4: two agencies who have been mentioned, but then also to

403
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Speaker 4: think that's That's what I don't understand the most is

404
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Speaker 4: this now reappeared one minute. How wildly out of whack

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Speaker 4: it is that no one could look at it and say, oh,

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Speaker 4: this is just a minute.

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Speaker 3: No, I mean, what's being thought?

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Speaker 4: And these are from forensic video experts or anyone who's

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Speaker 4: ever watched a TV screen in their life.

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Speaker 2: And by the way, are actually the people that are

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Speaker 2: being the most impressionable like I would be fooled by much.

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Speaker 3: This is not fool but not no.

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Speaker 4: It look and what the thought is is that it

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Speaker 4: was potentially it was filmed off of some other video screen,

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Speaker 4: like if you do put your phone up to you know,

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Speaker 4: a football game to send something to and you can

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Speaker 4: tell So I don't know it. Just again, here's that's

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Speaker 4: the information. But I feel like it's only more questions

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Speaker 4: than answers.

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Speaker 2: I'm so curious what you guys have to say, like,

421
00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:14,600
Speaker 2: please jump in, tell us what you think of this,

422
00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:18,880
Speaker 2: because again, are we seeing it wrong somehow? This seems

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Speaker 2: like we're just adding more fuel to this already very

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Speaker 2: aggressive fire happening behind closed doors.

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Speaker 3: Why even release this minute suddenly? It makes no sense.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't further the narrative, It doesn't help anything.

427
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Speaker 3: It actually opens more doors at this point. The question too.

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Speaker 3: By the way, there they called it raw footage, but

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Speaker 3: it's nice, said I know. But video experts are saying,

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Speaker 3: looks like a screen recording. So like they launched whatever

431
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Speaker 3: software on their desktop to record the raw footage. Right,

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Speaker 3: we need the raw footage, we need the raw metadata,

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Speaker 3: you know what I mean?

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Speaker 2: Well that too, let's just show us that's top favor

435
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:02,840
Speaker 2: I thought, you know, go right to the photographs of

436
00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:06,000
Speaker 2: the photographs of the crime scene, like often happen. Let's

437
00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:09,240
Speaker 2: get the photographs at the Morgue. We've seen them in there,

438
00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:13,480
Speaker 2: We've seen them. We've seen the morg photos, which I

439
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:15,879
Speaker 2: wish I hadn't, but I have, we all have.

440
00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:18,399
Speaker 3: They were in a Morga.

441
00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:21,240
Speaker 2: Though, and he had been changed out of certain clusters

442
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:24,080
Speaker 2: at that point, so there was no consistency in terms

443
00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:28,280
Speaker 2: of the crime scene itself. I don't recall there being

444
00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:31,680
Speaker 2: crime scene photos, and if there are, we haven't seen them.

445
00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:36,920
Speaker 2: But many reputable, top level, the top dogs in forensics

446
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:40,560
Speaker 2: are saying across the something is not adding up in

447
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:44,520
Speaker 2: terms of the suicide perception. And by the way, why

448
00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:49,560
Speaker 2: is some guard working eight hours for three shifts straight

449
00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:53,040
Speaker 2: a twenty four hour shift? First off, what is that?

450
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:56,320
Speaker 2: How is that keeping anything safe in this world? I mean, again,

451
00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:58,880
Speaker 2: this is all pieces of information that seemed like either

452
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:02,760
Speaker 2: the worst night ever perfect storm for anything to occur.

453
00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:06,399
Speaker 2: But there should be some more proof than this. And

454
00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:09,359
Speaker 2: why are we using VHS tapes? Like how is that

455
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:14,480
Speaker 2: even possible? Like it's all bananas. But again, I maybe

456
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,400
Speaker 2: we're just like I don't also want to be perpetuating

457
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:20,280
Speaker 2: a narrative either if that makes sense?

458
00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:22,880
Speaker 3: Well no, well of course not. But I mean at

459
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:26,399
Speaker 3: the same time hard it's insulting, Like I said, So

460
00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:28,600
Speaker 3: weigh in on this for ust. What do you have

461
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:30,080
Speaker 3: to say about it? Give us a call eighty eight

462
00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:32,520
Speaker 3: thirty one Crime. This is true crime tonight on iHeartRadio.

463
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:35,440
Speaker 3: I'm Body Moven and I'm here with Courtney Armstrong and

464
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:38,359
Speaker 3: Stephanie ly Decker and we're talking about Epstein right now

465
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:40,600
Speaker 3: in this missing minute. But I think we're gonna move

466
00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:44,120
Speaker 3: forward into some headlines. Is that right? That there's a lot?

467
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:45,440
Speaker 3: What do we got? What do we got?

468
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:48,960
Speaker 4: So this one, we have been covering this for so long.

469
00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:52,679
Speaker 4: There has been the months long man hunt for Travis Decker. He,

470
00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:55,399
Speaker 4: of course is the man who's accused of killing his

471
00:25:55,600 --> 00:26:00,400
Speaker 4: three daughters, all under the age of ten. And there

472
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:02,960
Speaker 4: was a moment that we thought, oh my goodness, perhaps

473
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:06,080
Speaker 4: there is a break in the case. Bones were found,

474
00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:11,360
Speaker 4: but unfortunately the FBI has confirmed the bones they found

475
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:16,480
Speaker 4: near the Washington campsite they are not human bones. So

476
00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:22,480
Speaker 4: the search continues. They the intrepidness of all of these

477
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:27,480
Speaker 4: sheriffs and agents is unbelievable, and they confirmed plans to

478
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:32,520
Speaker 4: expand further into new areas as resources become available. So

479
00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:35,240
Speaker 4: that's the update on Travis Decker. So in this moment,

480
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 4: still at large.

481
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:39,520
Speaker 2: I mean, they've had so many false alarms and now

482
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:42,800
Speaker 2: too for law enforcement who have just been so dedicated.

483
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:46,560
Speaker 2: Remember there was the guy that was you know, wrongly

484
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:48,520
Speaker 2: spotted they saw, we.

485
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 3: Saw in the woods. Yeah, of course it was not him.

486
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:55,000
Speaker 2: It was just a camper who just slightly resembled him,

487
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:58,000
Speaker 2: you know, Thank goodness, there was no shots fired or anything.

488
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 2: Now the bones, it just seems like there's been these

489
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:03,640
Speaker 2: little tips along the way that have not panned out.

490
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:06,760
Speaker 2: And as a reminder, if in fact he is alive,

491
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:09,359
Speaker 2: he is very armed and very dangerous.

492
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:10,280
Speaker 3: Mm hmm.

493
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:14,600
Speaker 4: That's right, that is very true. And did we have

494
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:16,480
Speaker 4: an update on Cardi B.

495
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:22,399
Speaker 2: Cardi B was found not guilty and she does be

496
00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:26,320
Speaker 2: this nice the second time around. She will not play

497
00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:31,240
Speaker 2: this nicely if there is another lawless, silly lawsuit brought

498
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:33,880
Speaker 2: up against her. She is going to be nice this

499
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:36,359
Speaker 2: one time, but if you come at her with one

500
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:40,359
Speaker 2: more frivolous lawsuit, she will not be playing I'm paraphrasing,

501
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 2: but she has seen her moments. Basically, yeah, she was pregnant.

502
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:48,119
Speaker 2: If you haven't been following along Cardi B, the you know,

503
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:49,960
Speaker 2: infamous pop star.

504
00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:51,640
Speaker 3: Is she pop star? Is that how we would refer

505
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:53,200
Speaker 3: to her? Yes, of course.

506
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:57,520
Speaker 2: And she's a personality crass right, Is she a rapper?

507
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:00,800
Speaker 3: Categories can say pop stars.

508
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:01,400
Speaker 4: He's kind enough.

509
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:04,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, she's a total riot.

510
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,120
Speaker 2: By the way, even in a very difficult situation where

511
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 2: you're you know, you're up against a real civil lawsuit

512
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:12,240
Speaker 2: here of you know, tens.

513
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:16,160
Speaker 3: Of twenty four million dollars millions twenty.

514
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:18,040
Speaker 2: To think about, it's like tens of thousands of dollars

515
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:20,840
Speaker 2: an hour in legal fees even, you know, like it's

516
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:22,520
Speaker 2: you're going out of your way and spending out of

517
00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:24,240
Speaker 2: pocket even just to indulge.

518
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:27,760
Speaker 3: But the fact that she was even being sued for

519
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:31,960
Speaker 3: what they what they ledge happened, is ridiculous. Like none

520
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:34,920
Speaker 3: of this was her fault. No, she was like basically

521
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:37,960
Speaker 3: assaulted at her gynecologists office, right.

522
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:41,720
Speaker 2: She was based, she was pregnant and the public was

523
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:44,280
Speaker 2: unaware of this pregnancy. So it was in the very

524
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:48,760
Speaker 2: early stages, and she travels with security and in doing

525
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:53,520
Speaker 2: so some well, I guess we could now say a

526
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:57,080
Speaker 2: someone who was also in her vicinity at the doctor's office,

527
00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:01,320
Speaker 2: like kind of came matter, and you know they weren't

528
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:03,080
Speaker 2: going to stand for it. She was a woman that

529
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:07,080
Speaker 2: was just newly carrying her first child and is probably

530
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:10,280
Speaker 2: a little sick of dealing with like fans or people

531
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 2: trying to get a rise out of her.

532
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 3: She's a particularly big personality on top of it.

533
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 2: So any note, Look, she's like she's carrying her first baby,

534
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:25,360
Speaker 2: so she's shame money, precious moments. So anyway, she wins,

535
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:27,480
Speaker 2: but she had to go to court quite a bit,

536
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:30,239
Speaker 2: and you know when you have to do that.

537
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:32,360
Speaker 3: We saw this with Gwyneth Paltrow as well.

538
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:36,160
Speaker 2: You know, sometimes this becomes a stage, and this becomes

539
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 2: a stage.

540
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 3: That's also a very expensive one.

541
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:40,120
Speaker 2: Like Party had to go to court and she had

542
00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:42,760
Speaker 2: to testify, and she had to be on a stand,

543
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:44,760
Speaker 2: and she had to relive some of this stuff. I mean,

544
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:47,479
Speaker 2: there's a lot of money on the line, and by

545
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:50,680
Speaker 2: all accounts, the jury finds her innocent.

546
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:56,880
Speaker 3: Yay Party, Happy for you, Carty. She's riotous beyondo.

547
00:29:57,080 --> 00:29:59,440
Speaker 2: If you have not been checking in with Cardi B

548
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 2: recently watching her in court was pretty she.

549
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:04,720
Speaker 3: Was sounding like there was a whole room.

550
00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 2: It was like dying laughing at one point, like her

551
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:09,800
Speaker 2: just the face as she was making stand.

552
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:12,480
Speaker 3: It was just like she's like a little bit of

553
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 3: a Lucille Ball. Yeah, yes, she has very Lucille Ball.

554
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:20,560
Speaker 2: That's like she would probably be a great like comedicatress

555
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:22,080
Speaker 2: or an improv actress.

556
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:24,040
Speaker 3: That is such a good idea for this show, a

557
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:27,280
Speaker 3: modern exactly. And Cardi B is a star and she's

558
00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:30,080
Speaker 3: the star of it. Like, okay, so we've already cracked

559
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:30,520
Speaker 3: it so.

560
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:32,280
Speaker 2: Well, none of us will be back to what do

561
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:34,360
Speaker 2: you think we'll be making this TV show with Cardi B.

562
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 3: But like Offset in the moment, she is laugh out.

563
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:42,080
Speaker 2: Loud at the end, she is right, is Offset the

564
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:45,240
Speaker 2: husband off? I don't think he's the husband anymore. Though

565
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:48,560
Speaker 2: there's no more offset than your whole opinion. The offset

566
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:49,440
Speaker 2: thing is off.

567
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:52,920
Speaker 3: You're absolutely right. Well, party deserves better. I'm sorry, Carti,

568
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:55,720
Speaker 3: but we'll find you a good man to play. They listen.

569
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:58,800
Speaker 2: Later in the show, we have the Queen herself sees

570
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:01,719
Speaker 2: he Moore, the Queen of DNA sequencing.

571
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:02,680
Speaker 3: By the way, if you.

572
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:05,640
Speaker 2: Old us at a gasp, like us, this was a

573
00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:06,800
Speaker 2: very big thing.

574
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:09,600
Speaker 3: When we discovered that CEC was coming on, we all

575
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:12,320
Speaker 3: got so excited. I didn't believe Taha. I was like,

576
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:15,600
Speaker 3: I was like, sure, are you sure? Because she's.

577
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:21,760
Speaker 2: The one we're so lucky, iconic. So there's many of

578
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:23,479
Speaker 2: that to come, much of that to come. So if

579
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:26,960
Speaker 2: you have any DNA questions, specifically for CC Moore, if

580
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:29,200
Speaker 2: you follow true crime super closely, you you.

581
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 3: Know who we're speaking of. So joining when it comes

582
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:35,320
Speaker 3: to genetic genealogy, right, because we've been talking about that

583
00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:37,600
Speaker 3: a lot, you know with Brian Coberg.

584
00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 2: Brian Coburger's such as absolutely and also this.

585
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 3: You know Emmanuel Harrow.

586
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:49,680
Speaker 2: There has been an update in court court and do

587
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:51,880
Speaker 2: you want to give us to us the sure summary.

588
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, we've been following this seven month seven month old

589
00:31:55,640 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 4: Emmanuel Harrow. He was reported missing by his mother last month,

590
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:03,200
Speaker 4: that was the middle of August. The mother initially claimed

591
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 4: he was kidnapped. That has borne out it does not

592
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:11,160
Speaker 4: appear to be true. So what has happened is the

593
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 4: parents of this baby pled not guilty today both to

594
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:18,760
Speaker 4: murder and to false reporting charges.

595
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 3: So standing by it.

596
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:24,760
Speaker 4: That's right, they're standing by it, and both of the

597
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:28,440
Speaker 4: parents remain in custody on a million dollar bond each,

598
00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:33,240
Speaker 4: and you know, we'll follow with more as it comes.

599
00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:36,080
Speaker 4: There is a preliminary hearing for the case. It's scheduled

600
00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:39,080
Speaker 4: for September seventeenth, so.

601
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:41,000
Speaker 3: We will keep you updated on that.

602
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:44,520
Speaker 2: Interesting on the pre point, that's the prelim apparently, But

603
00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:46,920
Speaker 2: what was curious is that there did seem to be

604
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 2: some law enforcement traveling with Dad to specific locations, which

605
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:56,000
Speaker 2: we kind of thought meant that maybe Dad was s

606
00:32:56,000 --> 00:33:02,240
Speaker 2: girning on Mom or maybe leading authorities to something terrible,

607
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:05,800
Speaker 2: but that doesn't seem to have really been the case.

608
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:09,800
Speaker 4: No. I mean, we do know that the father was

609
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:13,520
Speaker 4: indeed out with authorities, and it did, from the pictures

610
00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:16,880
Speaker 4: appear that he was potentially going to say here are remains,

611
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:19,720
Speaker 4: here is a weapon, but nothing came out from that.

612
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:23,560
Speaker 2: I mean, he has a pretty checkered pass too. So

613
00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:28,400
Speaker 2: Dad has also been accused of harming his older child,

614
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:34,480
Speaker 2: who knows conected it correct, has lifetime issues that are

615
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:35,720
Speaker 2: pretty unspeakable, so.

616
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:39,520
Speaker 3: He was able to take parenting classes basically to get

617
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:45,360
Speaker 3: out of it. It's horrifying, horrifying, Yeah, absolutely horrifying. But

618
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:49,000
Speaker 3: I understand. Uh, we have a talk aboth exactly. We're gonna, yeah,

619
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:50,360
Speaker 3: change it up, go to the talkback.

620
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:55,520
Speaker 5: Hi, this is Kat for Phoenix, Arizona. I just want

621
00:33:55,520 --> 00:34:01,400
Speaker 5: to say I'm not defending h Colberger in any way. Wait, however,

622
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 5: I think that maybe his autistic courts are being overlooked

623
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:13,839
Speaker 5: a little bit. You're talking about the red hands. That

624
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:17,840
Speaker 5: could be because he's in a situation that he's uncomfortable

625
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:22,560
Speaker 5: with and he's wringing his hands too much. The washing

626
00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:26,799
Speaker 5: of his hands excessively is also a trait of autism.

627
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:29,880
Speaker 5: I know this because I have a child who is autistic,

628
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:33,120
Speaker 5: and the voices that he's hearing the other inmates that

629
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:39,839
Speaker 5: he's hearing could be irritating or agitating that autism. But

630
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:42,880
Speaker 5: I'm not you know, I'm not defending him at all.

631
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:46,040
Speaker 5: I'm just saying that, you know, I think his autism

632
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:52,160
Speaker 5: traits that people are looking at as odd behavior. But

633
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 5: let me know what you think me like by the.

634
00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:57,080
Speaker 3: Wait to that end, and I thought, I know you

635
00:34:57,080 --> 00:34:58,879
Speaker 3: want to jump in. When we were making a dot

636
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:00,520
Speaker 3: we we kind of big.

637
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:03,759
Speaker 2: Section out of the documentary because and the documentary is

638
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:07,600
Speaker 2: on Peacock the Idaho student murders, because it does go

639
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:11,279
Speaker 2: into potentially OCD autism some of the things that he's

640
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:15,160
Speaker 2: been labeled with that really would sort of not justify,

641
00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:19,640
Speaker 2: but would explain, explain some of these behavioral traits which

642
00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:23,200
Speaker 2: he clearly had, right, he did not have an understanding

643
00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:24,440
Speaker 2: of any social cues.

644
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:25,960
Speaker 3: Just generally speaking, this is.

645
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:28,279
Speaker 2: Not a guy that walked into a room and understood

646
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:31,480
Speaker 2: any of the vibe, period no matter what room he

647
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:35,120
Speaker 2: was in. We see obsessive behavior with mom and dad

648
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:38,759
Speaker 2: phone calls, which we'll get you later, so check check

649
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:39,520
Speaker 2: check check.

650
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:41,520
Speaker 3: That does actually check a lot of boxes.

651
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:44,359
Speaker 2: On the flip of that, we would never want the

652
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:48,480
Speaker 2: autism community, by the way, amazing talk back and really

653
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:52,680
Speaker 2: what a caregiver for your child. We don't want the

654
00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:56,319
Speaker 2: autism community to feel slighted. That's suddenly like, oh, well

655
00:35:56,360 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 2: this is why it must be autistic. That's not fair either, right,

656
00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:03,239
Speaker 2: So it is a really layered thing. We ultimately took

657
00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:05,720
Speaker 2: it out of the documentary for all the obvious reasons

658
00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:08,239
Speaker 2: that we just talked about. But I do think it's

659
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:11,160
Speaker 2: worth exploring. I do, And I think that's a really

660
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:11,960
Speaker 2: valid point.

661
00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:16,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know it. I think it explains a

662
00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:19,919
Speaker 3: lot of things. And you know, just recently, one of

663
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:23,560
Speaker 3: the like the in a handwritten document, there's this guilty

664
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:26,040
Speaker 3: where he's entering is guilty plea and he has to

665
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:30,200
Speaker 3: answer questions. It was revealed in his own handwriting his

666
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:32,719
Speaker 3: diagnosises and I got them. If we want to go

667
00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:33,799
Speaker 3: over them, let's go over them.

668
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:34,320
Speaker 6: Yeah.

669
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:38,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, So his diagnosises include autism, love and it says

670
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:44,439
Speaker 3: level one ocd ADHD and the eating disorder a r

671
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:49,360
Speaker 3: f I d ARPID. I hope that's appropriate to say ARPHID,

672
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:53,319
Speaker 3: which is avoidant restrictive food and take disorder. And I

673
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:57,160
Speaker 3: have never heard of that before. So Courtney and I

674
00:36:57,280 --> 00:36:59,719
Speaker 3: were looking at it because we were like, well, what

675
00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:05,399
Speaker 3: is that? And it's it's it's kind of a sensory issue.

676
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:07,360
Speaker 3: And I don't know if it's tied to his autism.

677
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:11,160
Speaker 3: It could be, but it's basically, it's not about your

678
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:14,640
Speaker 3: body image. It's not about like bolimia or anorexia, where

679
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:17,840
Speaker 3: you're concerned you're concerned about gaining weight or you know

680
00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:20,919
Speaker 3: you have like a body dysmorphia or anything like that.

681
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:24,720
Speaker 3: It's tied to sensory issues with food and it's also

682
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:32,160
Speaker 3: tied to a fear of choking or throwing vomiting, throwing

683
00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:36,120
Speaker 3: up things like that, or stomach pain. So it's it's

684
00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:39,160
Speaker 3: it's completely different from his weight because we do know

685
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:43,719
Speaker 3: he experienced a radical weight loss, right, and we initially

686
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 3: thought maybe he had something and he was worried about,

687
00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:49,239
Speaker 3: you know, becoming heavier again, but that doesn't seem to

688
00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:49,680
Speaker 3: be the case.

689
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:53,160
Speaker 2: And just to attract tie to to your point, that

690
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:58,800
Speaker 2: timeline is high school, you know, childhood years overweight, his words,

691
00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:03,879
Speaker 2: not ours, maybe was made fun of because of that, bullied, etc.

692
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:07,080
Speaker 2: At some point post high school, he does a real

693
00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:10,400
Speaker 2: shred down, and there's some drugs involved. He becomes a

694
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:13,440
Speaker 2: pretty good drug addict, also heroin. If I'm not mistaken,

695
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 2: it is heroin, I'm not mistaken. So he becomes a

696
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:20,719
Speaker 2: very big drug addict that also maybe aids in the

697
00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:24,719
Speaker 2: weight loss. Then he kicks the drugs. And by the way,

698
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:27,840
Speaker 2: getting off of heroin is no easy task, so it

699
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:33,560
Speaker 2: takes a certain fortitude and commitment and devotion to yourself

700
00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:35,760
Speaker 2: right to be able to pull that off. So times

701
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:38,239
Speaker 2: are good, everybody probably can you imagine mom and dad,

702
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:41,560
Speaker 2: his sister's everyone's so happy he kicked the habit.

703
00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:44,760
Speaker 3: Now he's healthy, and look at him. He's excelling.

704
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:46,759
Speaker 2: He's going to go to this great master's program in

705
00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:50,680
Speaker 2: PhD program in criminology at a very reputable school.

706
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:52,160
Speaker 3: Times are going to look up.

707
00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:56,000
Speaker 2: But maybe he has this sensory thing which means he's

708
00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:57,799
Speaker 2: like nervous about throwing.

709
00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:01,400
Speaker 3: Up in Some of the common signs are there's an

710
00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:05,880
Speaker 3: extremely extremely limited like list of acceptable food. One will

711
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:10,120
Speaker 3: eat less than twenty and you have anxiety or distress

712
00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:14,400
Speaker 3: when new foods are presented, slow eating or small portion intake,

713
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:17,960
Speaker 3: and you rely a lot on like neutral I'm sorry,

714
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:21,000
Speaker 3: nutritional drinks and like supplements and things like that because

715
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:23,279
Speaker 3: you have a less chance of like choking on them

716
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:26,320
Speaker 3: and things like that. So, you know, when we were

717
00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:29,640
Speaker 3: talking about the complaints that he had about not getting

718
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:32,439
Speaker 3: his food, you know, it's kind of deeper a little

719
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:35,800
Speaker 3: bit now, you know, like maybe that you know, trigger

720
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:38,480
Speaker 3: one thing that he was counting on eating that he

721
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:40,960
Speaker 3: knew was safe wasn't given to him that day, right,

722
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:44,399
Speaker 3: And then you know, we have these pictures that were

723
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:47,359
Speaker 3: released of his apartment. In one of the pictures that

724
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:51,560
Speaker 3: was interesting was his refrigerator and freezer. Yeah, and in

725
00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:55,439
Speaker 3: those pictures we see a lot of different vegan type

726
00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:58,359
Speaker 3: of pizzas and there's like a ton of them and

727
00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:01,239
Speaker 3: tater tots, like a couple bags of tater tots. So

728
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:03,880
Speaker 3: those might have been on his safe food list, is

729
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:05,359
Speaker 3: what I'm kind of getting at.

730
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:08,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, even in his refrigerator itself too, it was like

731
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:09,400
Speaker 2: he had a.

732
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:11,040
Speaker 3: Lot of hummus.

733
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:13,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, he seemed to enjoy the onions, a lot of onions,

734
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:16,880
Speaker 2: you know, there was like that weird for the bottom

735
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:18,560
Speaker 2: of like a lot of onion peels.

736
00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:21,239
Speaker 3: Like, by the way, don't put your onions in the refrigerator.

737
00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:23,439
Speaker 2: That's also a thing I was You took the thought

738
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:24,720
Speaker 2: out of my head, did I really?

739
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:25,080
Speaker 7: Yeah?

740
00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:26,920
Speaker 2: We like, by the way, if I was left to

741
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:31,319
Speaker 2: my own devices, though, my refrigerator would have similar underpinnings

742
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:35,480
Speaker 2: of silly hillis it would just his refrigerator looks horrible

743
00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:38,520
Speaker 2: for starters, like nobody wants to eat out of that refrigerator.

744
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:40,520
Speaker 3: It is not a fun one to open up and

745
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:41,440
Speaker 3: have a gaze at.

746
00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:46,120
Speaker 2: But it also says he doesn't eat a lot apparently

747
00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:47,440
Speaker 2: on his list.

748
00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:52,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, he had some like rice in the cupboard, the

749
00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:55,120
Speaker 3: pizzas and the tater tots and whatnot in the fridge.

750
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:58,480
Speaker 3: There was not a lot milk and zilla. I know

751
00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:05,200
Speaker 3: again the list so far vegan vegan mozzarella by the way. Yeah,

752
00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:07,840
Speaker 3: and you know there's the common like I said, I

753
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:11,160
Speaker 3: did the common signs are you know about twenty save foods?

754
00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:16,680
Speaker 3: And you know the side effects of this, this avoidant

755
00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:21,600
Speaker 3: food disorder can lead to health problems, malnutrition, low energy,

756
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:26,839
Speaker 3: poor growth, and social difficulties avoiding meals with others. You're

757
00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:28,360
Speaker 3: not going to sit down and get to know somebody

758
00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:32,480
Speaker 3: and eat, you know, those kinds of things, and emotional stress.

759
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:36,279
Speaker 3: Very interesting anyway, I thought it was be neat to

760
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:37,520
Speaker 3: go over that, by the way.

761
00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:39,759
Speaker 2: And the visuals to know why is that not on

762
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:42,319
Speaker 2: this list? And he had the visual snow where he

763
00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:43,880
Speaker 2: couldn't see straight.

764
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:51,160
Speaker 3: Because I think the question was more behavior behavioral. Thank you, sorry,

765
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:53,799
Speaker 3: I couldn't think of the word it was where behavioral?

766
00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:55,960
Speaker 3: And so he answered it and it was in his

767
00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:58,720
Speaker 3: own handwriting. It wasn't like, you know, something that was forced.

768
00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:01,320
Speaker 3: Did we talk about can we talk about that handwriting

769
00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:04,799
Speaker 3: to Okay? No, it's the handwriting is so too much

770
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:09,319
Speaker 3: so it's handwriting and the mom and the cards. I

771
00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:11,400
Speaker 3: think we and we have to get through all of those.

772
00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:13,720
Speaker 3: How much time do we it's we have five minutes.

773
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:16,080
Speaker 3: We don't have enough time. But I want to talk

774
00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:20,279
Speaker 3: about this phone call with his mom and the text message. Okay.

775
00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:23,920
Speaker 3: So four days after the murder, it's November seventeenth, and

776
00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:27,400
Speaker 3: Brian Kolberger and his mother are on the phone. Okay,

777
00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:29,360
Speaker 3: and the whole world is looking for a killer.

778
00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:32,960
Speaker 2: The whole world is captivated and we want answers.

779
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 3: I'm one of them at this time. Hmm. Right. And

780
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:39,320
Speaker 3: while they're on the phone, and it's been reported that

781
00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:42,439
Speaker 3: they were on the phone for hours, Okay. While they're

782
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:45,680
Speaker 3: on the phone, his mother sends him an article about

783
00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:50,400
Speaker 3: the murders. Okay, so it you know, you can reasonably

784
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:55,279
Speaker 3: assume that they were talking about it, right, Well.

785
00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:59,480
Speaker 2: The specifically was about Xaner Kernodle. We know had an

786
00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:04,040
Speaker 2: impressible stab wound count I think close to fifty.

787
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:04,920
Speaker 3: Uh.

788
00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:09,200
Speaker 2: And mom's article that she sent her beloved son was

789
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:14,000
Speaker 2: just about how hard Xanna fought, that Xanner Kernodle fought

790
00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:16,799
Speaker 2: for her life. So they yeah, they not only must

791
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:19,640
Speaker 2: have been talking about it. Is it possible that mom

792
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:23,760
Speaker 2: was concerned for his safety and was like, look, whoever's

793
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:26,439
Speaker 2: on the loose, Look how hard she had to fight

794
00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:29,560
Speaker 2: him off? Uh, look at this article for example of

795
00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:34,279
Speaker 2: Xanner Kernodle. That it's been noted, son, be careful out there.

796
00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:38,279
Speaker 4: I mean, that's possibly very likely or very you know,

797
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:41,840
Speaker 4: it seems likely a mother would do that.

798
00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:47,080
Speaker 2: Or is it possible that mom was like, son, why

799
00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:50,000
Speaker 2: do you seem so exhausted and a little beaten up?

800
00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:51,399
Speaker 3: You seem like you've been through it?

801
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:55,240
Speaker 2: And her answer His answer is not satisfying, and mom

802
00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:59,360
Speaker 2: thinks maybe he's a killer. Right, And then this is

803
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:01,799
Speaker 2: an article of what just happened four days ago in

804
00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:05,400
Speaker 2: your area because this young girl, beautiful Zeta Kernodle, had

805
00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:06,400
Speaker 2: to fight for her life.

806
00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:11,040
Speaker 3: Look at this. Is it possible your involved son, or

807
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:15,080
Speaker 3: or let's take a different approach. Is it possible because

808
00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:18,279
Speaker 3: he's in criminology and this is a subject that interests him,

809
00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:20,239
Speaker 3: that mom is just looking for ways to connect to

810
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:24,120
Speaker 3: her son, like and talked her about you know, maybe like, hey,

811
00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:26,920
Speaker 3: are you guys talking about this? And like did you

812
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:30,200
Speaker 3: read this article? Oh my gosh, what's what's people do

813
00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:31,920
Speaker 3: that to me? I'm sure they do that to all

814
00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:32,640
Speaker 3: of us, all right.

815
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:36,239
Speaker 2: That's how people connect with me sometimes is through an

816
00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:36,920
Speaker 2: interesting case.

817
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:37,520
Speaker 4: Right.

818
00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:41,040
Speaker 3: But they also in this the same people that did this,

819
00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:44,719
Speaker 3: you know, that told us about this text and phone call,

820
00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:48,120
Speaker 3: also examined you know, his phone and laptop and they're

821
00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:51,839
Speaker 3: saying that they found letters that he wrote when he

822
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:55,799
Speaker 3: got when he lost his job, he wrote not one,

823
00:44:56,040 --> 00:44:59,560
Speaker 3: but two letters of grievance explaining why he needed the

824
00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:03,760
Speaker 3: teachingssistant role in what it meant to him. The Barnhart

825
00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:07,439
Speaker 3: told Banfield on his nation and in the second one

826
00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:11,120
Speaker 3: was saying why the professors were wrong? So why they

827
00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:13,400
Speaker 3: were wrong? He's a good student, he has a good GPA.

828
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:16,200
Speaker 3: He can be both a good student and a TA

829
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:20,120
Speaker 3: and he deserves that role. So he was fighting back

830
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:20,920
Speaker 3: Wow with.

831
00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:24,919
Speaker 2: Wsu, I am dying to talk about his relationship with mom.

832
00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:27,040
Speaker 3: What are we going to do that?

833
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:30,239
Speaker 2: More of a deep dive into this, because we know

834
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:34,160
Speaker 2: that Brian spoke for hours with Mom, even right before

835
00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:37,600
Speaker 2: the sentencing, Right, you can do that on Sunday. Yeah, Like,

836
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:40,880
Speaker 2: there is something really interesting about that dynamic. He was

837
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:44,000
Speaker 2: very dependent on her. She obviously loved him.

838
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:44,680
Speaker 3: We're looking at a.

839
00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:47,719
Speaker 2: Photo of a card she sent him about her son

840
00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:50,680
Speaker 2: going off to school, moving away, and how much she

841
00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:53,840
Speaker 2: loved him. Right, So, like this was a bond from

842
00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:55,600
Speaker 2: a guy who has no bonds.

843
00:45:55,920 --> 00:45:58,239
Speaker 3: Right, So they were on the phone for hours that day.

844
00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:00,440
Speaker 3: This is the seventeenth. This is all so the same

845
00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:02,160
Speaker 3: day he wrote the letter. I just wanted to get

846
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:04,640
Speaker 3: that in very quickly. The same day he wrote the letter,

847
00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:06,480
Speaker 3: he's on the phone with his mom. They could have

848
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:08,879
Speaker 3: been talking about that. They could have been talking about

849
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:11,160
Speaker 3: the murders. Anyway, that's it. It could have been.

850
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:13,759
Speaker 4: Well listen, keep it here because at the top of

851
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:18,000
Speaker 4: the hour, we have literally the nation's leading genetic genealogist,

852
00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:21,520
Speaker 4: CC Moore. She's joining us to discuss the cutting edge

853
00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:25,080
Speaker 4: technology that just solved a decades old case.

854
00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:26,399
Speaker 3: That and much more.

855
00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:37,120
Speaker 4: Give us your questions eighty eight to three to one Crime.

856
00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:41,759
Speaker 2: So don't forget. If you missed any of the show,

857
00:46:42,120 --> 00:46:44,239
Speaker 2: no problem at all. You could always catch us right

858
00:46:44,280 --> 00:46:46,879
Speaker 2: after as a podcast. And we also want to hear

859
00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:50,920
Speaker 2: from you at True Crime Tonight show on Instagram and TikTok,

860
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:54,359
Speaker 2: or at True Crime Tonight on Facebook or you could

861
00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:57,319
Speaker 2: always leave us a talk back. So listen, we have

862
00:46:57,400 --> 00:47:03,319
Speaker 2: a really big, exciting, important, important guest period the end,

863
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:06,360
Speaker 2: who has really shaped so much in the world of

864
00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:10,319
Speaker 2: forensics and how cases are being solved real time. Not

865
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:13,080
Speaker 2: only are we super fans of her work, but she's

866
00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:16,400
Speaker 2: she's the one, She's the queen who is the queen

867
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:20,359
Speaker 2: of this, you know, genealogy, the chief of genetic genealogy

868
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:24,440
Speaker 2: and also has cracked you know, hundreds and hundreds of

869
00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:27,600
Speaker 2: violent cases with law enforcement and her work.

870
00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:30,600
Speaker 3: There were sore.

871
00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:31,560
Speaker 4: Yeah.

872
00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:33,359
Speaker 2: And by the way, also not only the shows that

873
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:35,719
Speaker 2: she's been on that you might actually recognize her from

874
00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:40,560
Speaker 2: as well, the Genetic Detective and PBS is Finding Your Roots,

875
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:44,279
Speaker 2: which is so good. If you haven't seen that, you

876
00:47:44,719 --> 00:47:49,319
Speaker 2: of course you'll recognize her from it. So Ceecymour, we're

877
00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:51,560
Speaker 2: so glad that you're here with us. Thank you for

878
00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:54,080
Speaker 2: joining us. I wish we could see you right now

879
00:47:54,160 --> 00:47:58,040
Speaker 2: because we're all sort of squeezing our cheeks and kind

880
00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:02,440
Speaker 2: of you know, yeah, a little starstruck a little bit.

881
00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:07,239
Speaker 6: Yes, it's too bad we can't sit around and yeah,

882
00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:08,520
Speaker 6: have some wine and.

883
00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:12,520
Speaker 3: Exactly would let's do it. That's like the best case scenario.

884
00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:15,480
Speaker 2: Actually, so let's pretend we're all at the same kitchen table,

885
00:48:15,719 --> 00:48:18,480
Speaker 2: and I know our true crime audience is with us

886
00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:21,200
Speaker 2: as well, at the exact same table. And yeah, the

887
00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:23,800
Speaker 2: proverbial glass of wine, we're passing it around.

888
00:48:24,760 --> 00:48:26,839
Speaker 3: So how did you even get involved in nice?

889
00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:28,240
Speaker 6: Oh?

890
00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:28,600
Speaker 5: Wow?

891
00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:30,560
Speaker 6: Well that's a long story, but I just want to

892
00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:33,200
Speaker 6: say thanks for the very nice introduction. That was very

893
00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:36,040
Speaker 6: very kind of you. I like that the queen.

894
00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:40,640
Speaker 3: I'll take that princess as well. The queen and the princess,

895
00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:41,719
Speaker 3: I will.

896
00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:45,560
Speaker 6: Take the temporary crown for now. But how did I

897
00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:47,479
Speaker 6: get into it? Well, it's a long story. I fell

898
00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:50,960
Speaker 6: in love with genetics multiple times in my life. It

899
00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:54,399
Speaker 6: took three times until it stuck. I don't have time

900
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:58,239
Speaker 6: to go in the whole background, but I separately was

901
00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:02,800
Speaker 6: interested in genetics and genealogy. And after nine to eleven,

902
00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:06,640
Speaker 6: all of my gigs canceled. So at that time I

903
00:49:06,719 --> 00:49:10,440
Speaker 6: was in entertainment and I was working consistently, and all

904
00:49:10,440 --> 00:49:14,319
Speaker 6: of a sudden I had nothing. I had three auditions

905
00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:17,640
Speaker 6: the day of before everyone really realized the impact on

906
00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:21,640
Speaker 6: the West Coast, and then every single job canceled, every audition,

907
00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:24,919
Speaker 6: and so I suddenly had some time to breathe, which

908
00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:28,200
Speaker 6: I hadn't because you know, when you're doing gigwork like that,

909
00:49:28,520 --> 00:49:30,719
Speaker 6: you just have to constantly be on the go because

910
00:49:30,719 --> 00:49:32,520
Speaker 6: you never know when your next paycheck is coming in.

911
00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:34,399
Speaker 6: You know, you got to make sure you have enough

912
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:37,799
Speaker 6: to pay the bills. Of course, I've long been interested,

913
00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:40,680
Speaker 6: but just didn't have time to pursue it. So that's

914
00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:44,799
Speaker 6: when I really started digging in on like ancestry dot com.

915
00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:47,240
Speaker 6: It was kind of early days, but they were online.

916
00:49:47,719 --> 00:49:51,040
Speaker 6: And then I read about this new company called family

917
00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:55,520
Speaker 6: Tree DNA that was offering DNA tests for genealogical purposes,

918
00:49:56,000 --> 00:49:58,120
Speaker 6: and that was like two things I loved and I

919
00:49:58,200 --> 00:50:03,000
Speaker 6: found fascinating that were and so I started reading up

920
00:50:03,040 --> 00:50:06,640
Speaker 6: on everything. At the time, I was pretty tight with

921
00:50:06,719 --> 00:50:10,120
Speaker 6: my money, so I didn't immediately jump in and start testing.

922
00:50:10,160 --> 00:50:13,120
Speaker 6: It was really expensive back then, but I started reading

923
00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:15,920
Speaker 6: what was going on and just following the progress of

924
00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:20,760
Speaker 6: that really curious. I didn't fully jump in with both

925
00:50:20,800 --> 00:50:24,080
Speaker 6: feet until two thousand and nine. So what happened is

926
00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:27,040
Speaker 6: we would use the types of tests that were called

927
00:50:27,080 --> 00:50:31,279
Speaker 6: why DNA and mitochondrial DNA early genetic genealogy, so from

928
00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:33,759
Speaker 6: two thousand to two thousand and nine. End of two

929
00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:36,480
Speaker 6: thousand and nine, we were just using those tests and

930
00:50:36,520 --> 00:50:39,319
Speaker 6: they could only tell us about our direct paternal and

931
00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:43,840
Speaker 6: direct maternal lines. Women couldn't test to find themselves to

932
00:50:43,920 --> 00:50:46,160
Speaker 6: learn about their dad's side. So a few of us

933
00:50:46,200 --> 00:50:49,160
Speaker 6: were asking, like, why can't we use autos normal DNA.

934
00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:52,000
Speaker 6: So autos onal DNA is the type of DNA you

935
00:50:52,040 --> 00:50:54,879
Speaker 6: inherit from all of your ancestral line, half from mom,

936
00:50:55,080 --> 00:50:57,880
Speaker 6: half from dad, And scientists told us it couldn't be

937
00:50:57,880 --> 00:51:02,080
Speaker 6: done that because of the combination rate was so high

938
00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:05,560
Speaker 6: and you lose half of that DNA every generation, that

939
00:51:05,640 --> 00:51:10,360
Speaker 6: it just was too an unstable basically for genealogical purposes.

940
00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:13,319
Speaker 6: And then twenty three and me had started testing for

941
00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:18,879
Speaker 6: health purposes. But this really smart, amazing scientists over there,

942
00:51:18,920 --> 00:51:26,520
Speaker 6: Mike mcspherson got the idea to introduce a genealogical based

943
00:51:26,680 --> 00:51:31,200
Speaker 6: feature beta testing, something called relative finder back then, and

944
00:51:31,480 --> 00:51:35,120
Speaker 6: with that you could compare your DNA to everyone else

945
00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:37,400
Speaker 6: already in the database. And this was something that was

946
00:51:37,480 --> 00:51:39,560
Speaker 6: kind of bubbling up with the community too. Some of

947
00:51:39,640 --> 00:51:41,560
Speaker 6: us are early adopters, were saying, well, if we tested,

948
00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:44,120
Speaker 6: there could we compare ourselves, like would they allow us

949
00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:47,080
Speaker 6: to do that? So he enabled that, and when I

950
00:51:47,120 --> 00:51:49,759
Speaker 6: saw that, that's when I jumped in with both feet,

951
00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:54,279
Speaker 6: dropped everything else, dumped all of our I had a

952
00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:56,200
Speaker 6: company at that time with the partner, dumped all the

953
00:51:56,239 --> 00:51:57,120
Speaker 6: work on the partner.

954
00:51:57,560 --> 00:52:01,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, no more gigs either. The gigs were over right now,

955
00:52:01,080 --> 00:52:01,920
Speaker 2: you're all sized out.

956
00:52:01,960 --> 00:52:04,719
Speaker 6: By that time I had this, I was into my

957
00:52:04,760 --> 00:52:08,000
Speaker 6: second career then, so when I got pregnant with my son,

958
00:52:08,560 --> 00:52:11,520
Speaker 6: I went behind the camera and started producing and writing

959
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:15,359
Speaker 6: and capping. So I had a production company. And then

960
00:52:15,560 --> 00:52:20,960
Speaker 6: when I saw the promise of autosomal DNA or SNIP testing.

961
00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:25,120
Speaker 6: We use a single nucleotide polymorphism, which is the type

962
00:52:25,160 --> 00:52:27,960
Speaker 6: of genetic marker, and that hadn't been used for much then,

963
00:52:28,160 --> 00:52:32,640
Speaker 6: just for health type and research, not for law enforcement,

964
00:52:32,719 --> 00:52:37,839
Speaker 6: not for genealogy. So I saw this tremendous potential. As

965
00:52:37,880 --> 00:52:41,440
Speaker 6: I said, dropped everything worked one hundred hours a week

966
00:52:41,480 --> 00:52:45,919
Speaker 6: at least tests before you. Of my family members told

967
00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:48,080
Speaker 6: some of the scientists at twenty three and me and

968
00:52:48,320 --> 00:52:50,520
Speaker 6: a different scientist said you should start writing a blog

969
00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:52,240
Speaker 6: about this. I said, well, who's going to care about

970
00:52:52,239 --> 00:52:55,400
Speaker 6: my research? And he said, oh, believe me, start writing

971
00:52:55,440 --> 00:52:58,360
Speaker 6: and they will come. And that's that's how it started.

972
00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:00,440
Speaker 3: I saw you on sixty minutes.

973
00:53:00,520 --> 00:53:02,759
Speaker 2: I want to say, I want this had to have

974
00:53:02,800 --> 00:53:05,359
Speaker 2: been way before COVID, but I have a memory very

975
00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:09,880
Speaker 2: distinctly of watching you on sixty minutes, and I like,

976
00:53:10,080 --> 00:53:10,880
Speaker 2: my heart stopped.

977
00:53:10,920 --> 00:53:13,080
Speaker 3: Am I accurate here? And I am God? Is my

978
00:53:13,160 --> 00:53:15,720
Speaker 3: witnessed the Armstrong. I went into you at work the next.

979
00:53:15,640 --> 00:53:19,360
Speaker 2: Day I think we were Kat was maybe just like

980
00:53:19,440 --> 00:53:21,200
Speaker 2: day one, and I was like, this is the show.

981
00:53:21,680 --> 00:53:22,840
Speaker 3: You got to see this woman.

982
00:53:22,920 --> 00:53:26,319
Speaker 2: She is like on fire with the science of this

983
00:53:26,480 --> 00:53:29,800
Speaker 2: and like even just you saying, now your second career,

984
00:53:29,960 --> 00:53:31,400
Speaker 2: pregnant with your you know your.

985
00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:33,440
Speaker 3: Son likes this career.

986
00:53:33,680 --> 00:53:37,480
Speaker 2: Now you're in your third career, how inspiring that is

987
00:53:37,680 --> 00:53:38,439
Speaker 2: for people to hear.

988
00:53:38,840 --> 00:53:40,560
Speaker 3: I was knocked off my side.

989
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:44,080
Speaker 2: I literally I was like blown away when I saw

990
00:53:44,120 --> 00:53:45,320
Speaker 2: your interview.

991
00:53:46,560 --> 00:53:48,000
Speaker 3: She was talking about the show.

992
00:53:48,840 --> 00:53:50,799
Speaker 6: I do find it inspirational, because that's one of the

993
00:53:50,840 --> 00:53:52,799
Speaker 6: things that I One of the messages I try to

994
00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:55,960
Speaker 6: get across is I didn't find it till my forties,

995
00:53:56,080 --> 00:53:58,080
Speaker 6: or I actually didn't create it. I had to create

996
00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:00,600
Speaker 6: this career for myself. There was no thing as a

997
00:54:00,640 --> 00:54:04,840
Speaker 6: professional genetic genealogist, and so I want people to be

998
00:54:04,880 --> 00:54:08,600
Speaker 6: inspired by that, particularly maybe women who have celebated home

999
00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:10,920
Speaker 6: with their kids, or people who are in dead end

1000
00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:12,360
Speaker 6: jobs that they don't find.

1001
00:54:12,239 --> 00:54:14,600
Speaker 3: Any of their jobs. Yeah that's me.

1002
00:54:14,760 --> 00:54:17,040
Speaker 6: Yeah, you you know, you can find something you love

1003
00:54:17,120 --> 00:54:21,760
Speaker 6: and is meaningful and actually help people and fulfilling. It's amazing.

1004
00:54:21,800 --> 00:54:23,359
Speaker 3: And women in STEM, I love it.

1005
00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:27,279
Speaker 2: I'm a It's just such a smart move. And by

1006
00:54:27,280 --> 00:54:31,560
Speaker 2: the way, you are changing lives so in such major ways.

1007
00:54:31,600 --> 00:54:34,080
Speaker 2: So congratulations and yeah, oh thank you.

1008
00:54:34,280 --> 00:54:37,279
Speaker 6: I'm so fortunate when I was in the right place

1009
00:54:37,320 --> 00:54:40,200
Speaker 6: at the right time and was in a position that

1010
00:54:40,320 --> 00:54:43,200
Speaker 6: I could. I mean I made a lot of took

1011
00:54:43,200 --> 00:54:46,799
Speaker 6: a lot of sacrifices to do it, but I did

1012
00:54:46,920 --> 00:54:49,600
Speaker 6: volunteer work for years, you know, before it became a

1013
00:54:49,640 --> 00:54:54,360
Speaker 6: paid gig. So I was lucky. But I was also

1014
00:54:54,640 --> 00:54:56,719
Speaker 6: you know, I was there when it was brand new.

1015
00:54:56,880 --> 00:54:59,719
Speaker 6: They're just there, weren't any experts. I don't have a

1016
00:54:59,760 --> 00:55:02,319
Speaker 6: deg in STEM. I actually went to school for theater

1017
00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:07,320
Speaker 6: for stopper in theater, and I kind of backed into

1018
00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:11,920
Speaker 6: STEM in a roundabout way. It's something I strongly considered

1019
00:55:12,640 --> 00:55:15,800
Speaker 6: when I was going into college, but ended up going

1020
00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:19,319
Speaker 6: the entertainment route. So I came full circle for me,

1021
00:55:19,400 --> 00:55:22,120
Speaker 6: but not till much later in life. So I do

1022
00:55:22,160 --> 00:55:24,600
Speaker 6: want people to be inspired because I had a lot

1023
00:55:24,600 --> 00:55:28,480
Speaker 6: of regrets about my career path and my choices, and

1024
00:55:28,520 --> 00:55:30,520
Speaker 6: now it all makes a lot of sense. Like, I'm

1025
00:55:30,560 --> 00:55:33,640
Speaker 6: really thankful I have my media background because it helped

1026
00:55:33,640 --> 00:55:36,000
Speaker 6: me a lot to be able to educate the public.

1027
00:55:36,600 --> 00:55:39,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, all of your experience has come together.

1028
00:55:40,080 --> 00:55:42,000
Speaker 3: See, it's so inspiring.

1029
00:55:43,160 --> 00:55:45,640
Speaker 4: And by the way, this is the Courtney Armstrong that

1030
00:55:45,680 --> 00:55:46,600
Speaker 4: Stephanie mentioned.

1031
00:55:46,640 --> 00:55:51,080
Speaker 3: And yes, we both became a little obsessed with you.

1032
00:55:51,600 --> 00:55:56,160
Speaker 2: I remember, yeah, and I was like, you have no

1033
00:55:56,239 --> 00:55:57,680
Speaker 2: idea what I just saw right now?

1034
00:55:57,719 --> 00:55:58,480
Speaker 3: This is the woman.

1035
00:55:58,600 --> 00:56:03,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, Stephanie world and wouldn't stop talking correctly about you.

1036
00:56:03,440 --> 00:56:07,240
Speaker 6: You know, looking back, it's really surreal because everything happened

1037
00:56:07,280 --> 00:56:11,240
Speaker 6: so fast. Then. That was still in late twenty eighteen.

1038
00:56:11,960 --> 00:56:13,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's exactly when we were just.

1039
00:56:13,320 --> 00:56:16,200
Speaker 6: Solving cases every few days, you know, at least one

1040
00:56:16,239 --> 00:56:19,080
Speaker 6: a week, which we've now done on average for seven

1041
00:56:19,160 --> 00:56:21,600
Speaker 6: years straight. But back then it was all new. It

1042
00:56:21,680 --> 00:56:25,040
Speaker 6: was crazy. I had media interviews all the time and

1043
00:56:25,080 --> 00:56:26,719
Speaker 6: now I look back and think, oh my gosh, I

1044
00:56:26,760 --> 00:56:29,000
Speaker 6: did sixty minutes. Like I haven't really had time to

1045
00:56:29,040 --> 00:56:31,359
Speaker 6: think about it at the time, but it was such

1046
00:56:31,400 --> 00:56:34,479
Speaker 6: an honor. It's such an incredible thing to be able

1047
00:56:34,520 --> 00:56:34,799
Speaker 6: to do.

1048
00:56:35,120 --> 00:56:38,719
Speaker 3: Your son must be very proud of you. Yes, how exciting.

1049
00:56:39,680 --> 00:56:43,359
Speaker 4: Listen, if anyone wants to speak with Cec and who

1050
00:56:43,440 --> 00:56:45,520
Speaker 4: wouldn't give us a call, We're at eight to eight

1051
00:56:45,560 --> 00:56:51,800
Speaker 4: three one crime and ask your genetics questions away, CEC.

1052
00:56:52,280 --> 00:56:53,240
Speaker 3: I had a question.

1053
00:56:54,600 --> 00:56:56,719
Speaker 4: I've heard you say that you're often sort of a

1054
00:56:56,800 --> 00:57:01,960
Speaker 4: last resort for older cases col cases. What is that

1055
00:57:02,080 --> 00:57:06,160
Speaker 4: emotional impact like when finally you're able to give family

1056
00:57:07,160 --> 00:57:09,000
Speaker 4: answers good or bad.

1057
00:57:10,200 --> 00:57:12,560
Speaker 6: Well, that's really what it's all about. All of my

1058
00:57:12,719 --> 00:57:17,440
Speaker 6: work in family history, genetic genealogy, traditional genealogy has always

1059
00:57:17,480 --> 00:57:22,600
Speaker 6: been about family and providing answers, particularly to families, and

1060
00:57:22,600 --> 00:57:27,080
Speaker 6: that's true with my biological reunification work with adoptees donor

1061
00:57:27,120 --> 00:57:30,240
Speaker 6: can see people. So this is just following in that

1062
00:57:30,320 --> 00:57:33,960
Speaker 6: same tradition, but it's something much heavier. I mean, those

1063
00:57:34,000 --> 00:57:37,000
Speaker 6: are super important too, but this is something that is

1064
00:57:37,120 --> 00:57:40,200
Speaker 6: just so tragic. Every one of these cases has destroyed

1065
00:57:40,240 --> 00:57:44,840
Speaker 6: lives taken, lives in some cases, families are never the same,

1066
00:57:45,320 --> 00:57:48,880
Speaker 6: and unfortunately we can't provide closure. You know, we can't

1067
00:57:48,960 --> 00:57:51,800
Speaker 6: undo what happened. We can't turn back the clock. So

1068
00:57:51,840 --> 00:57:55,080
Speaker 6: the one thing we can give them is answers to

1069
00:57:55,120 --> 00:57:58,720
Speaker 6: their questions and then some sort of resolution to that

1070
00:57:58,840 --> 00:58:02,080
Speaker 6: and hopefully justice. And then the cases we're fortunate, we

1071
00:58:02,200 --> 00:58:04,400
Speaker 6: get justice, you know, when that person is still alive

1072
00:58:04,560 --> 00:58:10,680
Speaker 6: to face their crimes. And I've watched so many families

1073
00:58:10,680 --> 00:58:13,880
Speaker 6: and so many survivors of violence cime now that I

1074
00:58:13,880 --> 00:58:15,600
Speaker 6: don't want to speak for them, but I will say

1075
00:58:15,600 --> 00:58:18,320
Speaker 6: what I've witnessed is it's like they carry this really

1076
00:58:18,400 --> 00:58:21,840
Speaker 6: heavy burden with them for years or decades, trying to

1077
00:58:21,840 --> 00:58:25,120
Speaker 6: get justice, trying to get answers, and then they finally

1078
00:58:25,160 --> 00:58:28,680
Speaker 6: get it thanks to genetic genealogy, and you can almost

1079
00:58:28,720 --> 00:58:33,360
Speaker 6: physically see the burden lift. It's amazing to me. And

1080
00:58:33,520 --> 00:58:36,320
Speaker 6: I don't always get to see the families in person,

1081
00:58:37,000 --> 00:58:40,360
Speaker 6: but when I have, you can just sense it. They

1082
00:58:40,400 --> 00:58:43,480
Speaker 6: carry such a heavy weight, such a heavy burden, trying

1083
00:58:43,520 --> 00:58:46,880
Speaker 6: to get justice for their loved ones and for survivors

1084
00:58:46,880 --> 00:58:49,680
Speaker 6: of sexual assault. You know, I never thought about it before.

1085
00:58:49,920 --> 00:58:52,160
Speaker 6: What it would be like to not know who your

1086
00:58:52,200 --> 00:58:56,440
Speaker 6: attacker was, To go through life not knowing if that

1087
00:58:56,480 --> 00:58:59,560
Speaker 6: person is around you, if they are someone you see

1088
00:58:59,600 --> 00:59:02,440
Speaker 6: in the grocery store or someone you meet online today,

1089
00:59:02,880 --> 00:59:06,400
Speaker 6: that must be horrific. And so I've seen a lot

1090
00:59:06,400 --> 00:59:09,560
Speaker 6: of lives kind of stop, just did to a stop

1091
00:59:09,680 --> 00:59:13,640
Speaker 6: because of that and that type of tragedy. And so

1092
00:59:13,720 --> 00:59:18,400
Speaker 6: even though they're survivors, their lives are often terribly impacted

1093
00:59:18,400 --> 00:59:21,520
Speaker 6: in a negative sense. And then I've seen those lives

1094
00:59:21,560 --> 00:59:24,840
Speaker 6: restart again. Even for some really old crimes. It was

1095
00:59:24,880 --> 00:59:29,479
Speaker 6: like almost like they got a reset. It's amazing, Wow,

1096
00:59:29,480 --> 00:59:30,360
Speaker 6: that really is.

1097
00:59:30,480 --> 00:59:32,960
Speaker 3: And the sexual assault example, you gave it.

1098
00:59:33,120 --> 00:59:36,880
Speaker 4: Literally all all three of us had looks of awakening

1099
00:59:37,080 --> 00:59:39,000
Speaker 4: of my gosh.

1100
00:59:39,080 --> 00:59:40,920
Speaker 3: I mean that's a reality for many people.

1101
00:59:41,840 --> 00:59:43,760
Speaker 6: Yeah, you know it's dark or they were wearing a

1102
00:59:43,760 --> 00:59:45,680
Speaker 6: mask or both. I mean a lot of these people

1103
00:59:45,720 --> 00:59:49,600
Speaker 6: have no idea what their attacker looks like. But you

1104
00:59:49,640 --> 00:59:50,960
Speaker 6: mentioned you were.

1105
00:59:51,120 --> 00:59:53,800
Speaker 3: You mentioned you were in entertainment and you had gigs

1106
00:59:53,840 --> 00:59:56,720
Speaker 3: and you were you went behind the camera and you

1107
00:59:56,720 --> 00:59:59,440
Speaker 3: were a producer and whatnot. And then now you're in

1108
00:59:59,520 --> 01:00:02,760
Speaker 3: TV to write The Genetic Detective and finding your roots

1109
01:00:03,080 --> 01:00:05,400
Speaker 3: and you're such a good communicator. Do you think that

1110
01:00:05,520 --> 01:00:09,000
Speaker 3: this has all helped people understand like the really complex

1111
01:00:09,400 --> 01:00:10,520
Speaker 3: issues around DNA.

1112
01:00:11,120 --> 01:00:11,800
Speaker 5: I do you know?

1113
01:00:11,880 --> 01:00:16,560
Speaker 6: That's my hope and my blog Actually the tagline was

1114
01:00:16,880 --> 01:00:20,959
Speaker 6: written by a non scientist for non scientists. My goal

1115
01:00:21,160 --> 01:00:24,440
Speaker 6: was always to try to educate the public in the

1116
01:00:24,520 --> 01:00:27,320
Speaker 6: type of language and explanations that make sense and not

1117
01:00:27,440 --> 01:00:30,000
Speaker 6: talk over people's heads. And I think because I don't

1118
01:00:30,040 --> 01:00:34,480
Speaker 6: come from stem academia and that world, I'm more able

1119
01:00:34,520 --> 01:00:36,680
Speaker 6: to do that. And then because of my background in

1120
01:00:36,760 --> 01:00:40,640
Speaker 6: media that has helped me so much, and so I

1121
01:00:40,680 --> 01:00:43,720
Speaker 6: finally for the first time, don't regret all of those

1122
01:00:43,720 --> 01:00:48,280
Speaker 6: earlier choices and you know, the directions that my careers,

1123
01:00:48,400 --> 01:00:50,960
Speaker 6: my multiple careers went, and then being able to write,

1124
01:00:51,320 --> 01:00:54,280
Speaker 6: you know, working on finding your roots. My biggest goal

1125
01:00:54,400 --> 01:00:56,800
Speaker 6: on Doctor Who's invited me to work on the show

1126
01:00:57,080 --> 01:00:59,880
Speaker 6: was to try to get more DNA stories into p

1127
01:01:00,040 --> 01:01:03,480
Speaker 6: both living rooms, and so the fact I learned how

1128
01:01:03,520 --> 01:01:07,600
Speaker 6: to write and produce and communicate to an audience through

1129
01:01:07,680 --> 01:01:12,400
Speaker 6: both my own appearances and writing the DNA parts of

1130
01:01:12,440 --> 01:01:16,240
Speaker 6: the script is I think it's been really illustrative and

1131
01:01:16,280 --> 01:01:20,760
Speaker 6: it's allowed the public to see through these human interest

1132
01:01:20,800 --> 01:01:25,840
Speaker 6: stories just how impactful genetic genealogy and DNA testing can be.

1133
01:01:26,320 --> 01:01:28,560
Speaker 6: And so that has always been one of my biggest goals.

1134
01:01:28,560 --> 01:01:30,520
Speaker 6: I mean early on, I saw the potential, but I

1135
01:01:30,560 --> 01:01:32,680
Speaker 6: knew we'd never get there if we didn't get millions

1136
01:01:32,680 --> 01:01:35,640
Speaker 6: of people to take these tests. So I started pitching

1137
01:01:36,120 --> 01:01:38,760
Speaker 6: human interest stories that I was finding through my work

1138
01:01:38,960 --> 01:01:41,760
Speaker 6: to all these different journalists and trying to put it

1139
01:01:41,840 --> 01:01:46,440
Speaker 6: in terminologies and structures that they would understand and like

1140
01:01:46,560 --> 01:01:48,880
Speaker 6: and say, hey, that's a good twist, or that might

1141
01:01:48,920 --> 01:01:51,160
Speaker 6: appeal to my audience as my editors.

1142
01:01:51,400 --> 01:01:54,200
Speaker 4: Well see, you say it's a goal, but I say

1143
01:01:54,240 --> 01:01:57,000
Speaker 4: it is something that is an accomplishment at this point

1144
01:01:57,080 --> 01:02:01,560
Speaker 4: because you have done that in droves. Listen, everyone, stay here.

1145
01:02:01,720 --> 01:02:04,440
Speaker 4: We are lucky enough to be continuing our conversation with

1146
01:02:04,600 --> 01:02:08,680
Speaker 4: c Seymour, the nation's leading genetic genealogist.

1147
01:02:09,320 --> 01:02:10,880
Speaker 3: Give us a call eighty to eighty three to.

1148
01:02:10,880 --> 01:02:21,560
Speaker 4: One crime True Crime tonight.

1149
01:02:23,240 --> 01:02:25,480
Speaker 2: We're getting a little rowdy in here. I wish you

1150
01:02:25,520 --> 01:02:29,000
Speaker 2: guys could see the robot that body is doing right now,

1151
01:02:29,120 --> 01:02:32,040
Speaker 2: nice dance moves. The whole crew is given a little

1152
01:02:32,080 --> 01:02:34,720
Speaker 2: wiggle in between the commercial break because we have an

1153
01:02:34,760 --> 01:02:37,240
Speaker 2: astounding guest. By the way, if you miss any of

1154
01:02:37,280 --> 01:02:39,120
Speaker 2: the show, no Worries, you can always catch it as

1155
01:02:39,120 --> 01:02:41,760
Speaker 2: a podcast right after. And if you want to jump

1156
01:02:41,800 --> 01:02:45,360
Speaker 2: in and join the conversation with the genetic Detective, Hello,

1157
01:02:45,480 --> 01:02:50,280
Speaker 2: Cecy Morris here the original, the Queen of all DNA

1158
01:02:50,760 --> 01:02:54,240
Speaker 2: in my humble opinions, and also the PBS show the

1159
01:02:54,280 --> 01:02:59,520
Speaker 2: Finding Your Roots is so satisfying and heartwarming and it's

1160
01:02:59,680 --> 01:03:04,520
Speaker 2: small art and we encourage everybody to please listen. And

1161
01:03:04,560 --> 01:03:06,680
Speaker 2: also we were hearing this in the earlier segment, but

1162
01:03:06,760 --> 01:03:09,080
Speaker 2: just to kind of underscore it yet again, it is

1163
01:03:09,120 --> 01:03:13,040
Speaker 2: so inspiring to be hearing from you just as a woman,

1164
01:03:13,520 --> 01:03:17,880
Speaker 2: or as a parent, or as anyone. And there's so

1165
01:03:17,960 --> 01:03:20,080
Speaker 2: many of us that can relate. To be in a

1166
01:03:20,160 --> 01:03:22,600
Speaker 2: section of your life where it's just not feeling right

1167
01:03:22,680 --> 01:03:25,280
Speaker 2: work wise, and that you have to kind of reinvent

1168
01:03:25,360 --> 01:03:29,360
Speaker 2: yourself and the fact that you've done that three times

1169
01:03:30,840 --> 01:03:31,680
Speaker 2: you are the.

1170
01:03:31,560 --> 01:03:34,000
Speaker 3: One is really just an exciting moment.

1171
01:03:34,080 --> 01:03:38,640
Speaker 2: So enough about that. Welcome back everybody, Courtney. Do you

1172
01:03:38,640 --> 01:03:40,600
Speaker 2: want to set us up for the case.

1173
01:03:40,360 --> 01:03:42,000
Speaker 3: That CES is going to discuss?

1174
01:03:42,160 --> 01:03:46,080
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, yeah, so we want every detail from you,

1175
01:03:46,200 --> 01:03:48,840
Speaker 4: but to catch audience members up. We are going to

1176
01:03:48,880 --> 01:03:53,480
Speaker 4: be talking about an identical twin who was been convicted

1177
01:03:53,960 --> 01:03:58,080
Speaker 4: of a nineteen eighty seven sexual assault cold case. And

1178
01:03:58,120 --> 01:04:02,480
Speaker 4: this happened using a breakthrough DNA sequencing technique. It was

1179
01:04:02,760 --> 01:04:06,520
Speaker 4: Russell Marubio. I hope I'm saying their name right. They

1180
01:04:06,520 --> 01:04:09,880
Speaker 4: were found guilty of this attack thirty seven years ago

1181
01:04:10,320 --> 01:04:15,160
Speaker 4: after forensic experts identified rare genetic mutations that distinguished the

1182
01:04:15,240 --> 01:04:17,400
Speaker 4: DNA from his identical twin.

1183
01:04:17,720 --> 01:04:20,600
Speaker 3: How is that even possible? It's crazy.

1184
01:04:20,880 --> 01:04:25,080
Speaker 4: I'll say one thing, thaking it was using ultra deep genome.

1185
01:04:26,360 --> 01:04:31,000
Speaker 4: I haveerentiate, but I bet c Z can actually say

1186
01:04:31,040 --> 01:04:33,480
Speaker 4: it and explain it because I almost.

1187
01:04:33,160 --> 01:04:36,840
Speaker 3: Thought identical twins had the same DNA, right, Like, how

1188
01:04:36,880 --> 01:04:38,240
Speaker 3: can you and stopped?

1189
01:04:40,800 --> 01:04:43,880
Speaker 6: You know, that's been the traditional understanding and definition of

1190
01:04:43,960 --> 01:04:48,840
Speaker 6: identical twins, and when you are looking at standard genetic tests,

1191
01:04:48,840 --> 01:04:52,040
Speaker 6: they are identical. And that's a real problem for law

1192
01:04:52,120 --> 01:04:56,960
Speaker 6: enforcement because they use those str profiles, the short tandem repeats.

1193
01:04:57,320 --> 01:04:59,800
Speaker 6: That's the type of DNA profile that they've used for

1194
01:05:00,040 --> 01:05:02,640
Speaker 6: decades to charge people with a crime, arrest them, convict

1195
01:05:02,640 --> 01:05:04,480
Speaker 6: them in a court of law. When you hear those

1196
01:05:04,560 --> 01:05:07,880
Speaker 6: terms where they say there's a one in five hundred

1197
01:05:07,880 --> 01:05:10,760
Speaker 6: trillion chance it's anyone else on earth theifis person. Well,

1198
01:05:10,800 --> 01:05:14,120
Speaker 6: that's never worked for identical twins, so it's been easy

1199
01:05:14,200 --> 01:05:17,000
Speaker 6: for the guilty one to point at the innocent one

1200
01:05:17,040 --> 01:05:19,640
Speaker 6: and say, no, it's him, Oh, it's him. So you

1201
01:05:19,640 --> 01:05:22,440
Speaker 6: haven't been able to use genetic evidence for that. But

1202
01:05:22,520 --> 01:05:26,000
Speaker 6: there's been a lot of research in the past theorizing

1203
01:05:26,200 --> 01:05:31,720
Speaker 6: that you could potentially find these unique mutations or somatic

1204
01:05:31,880 --> 01:05:36,080
Speaker 6: mutations that happen after conception, and so they vary even

1205
01:05:36,440 --> 01:05:41,720
Speaker 6: with identical twins. And because technology has moved forward so

1206
01:05:42,120 --> 01:05:44,560
Speaker 6: fast and it's so much cheaper now to do a

1207
01:05:44,600 --> 01:05:47,760
Speaker 6: whole genome sequence or a full genome sequence, you can

1208
01:05:47,800 --> 01:05:51,560
Speaker 6: now do that. And we actually weren't the first. There

1209
01:05:51,680 --> 01:05:54,360
Speaker 6: was one in the Netherlands, I believe in twenty twenty

1210
01:05:54,400 --> 01:05:56,440
Speaker 6: two where they did this exact same thing. So we're

1211
01:05:56,480 --> 01:05:59,560
Speaker 6: the first in the US in Unis and that this

1212
01:05:59,760 --> 01:06:01,680
Speaker 6: just happened. He was just convicted. I think it was

1213
01:06:01,680 --> 01:06:07,520
Speaker 6: August twenty first, and it was based on our scientists,

1214
01:06:07,600 --> 01:06:11,040
Speaker 6: doctor Janet Katie's research at Parabon. So we had done

1215
01:06:11,040 --> 01:06:13,840
Speaker 6: the genetic genealogy on the case, just like we would

1216
01:06:14,120 --> 01:06:16,760
Speaker 6: any case. In fact, it was one of my team members,

1217
01:06:16,760 --> 01:06:20,560
Speaker 6: Stephanie Wyatt, who did that work and it led right

1218
01:06:20,640 --> 01:06:24,200
Speaker 6: to these two brothers. But they were identical twins, so

1219
01:06:24,280 --> 01:06:26,840
Speaker 6: that was the problem. Now one of them certainly seemed

1220
01:06:26,840 --> 01:06:32,440
Speaker 6: to fit the surviving victims description better, but still it

1221
01:06:32,560 --> 01:06:37,680
Speaker 6: was just circumstantial, right, and it's like hair doing things.

1222
01:06:37,680 --> 01:06:39,800
Speaker 6: He could have changed all that. She could have been

1223
01:06:39,800 --> 01:06:42,680
Speaker 6: one twin pretending to be his other twins, and so

1224
01:06:43,840 --> 01:06:45,880
Speaker 6: we couldn't say for sure. It was really just based

1225
01:06:45,920 --> 01:06:49,120
Speaker 6: on circumstantial They both were in the same area at

1226
01:06:49,120 --> 01:06:52,000
Speaker 6: the same time, you know, the crime, and so they

1227
01:06:52,040 --> 01:06:56,400
Speaker 6: either could have done it, and so our brilliant scientist,

1228
01:06:56,520 --> 01:07:02,640
Speaker 6: doctor Janet Katie did that analog. We had the DNA

1229
01:07:03,400 --> 01:07:08,920
Speaker 6: processes of full genome sequence at Inner Mountain Forensics in Utah,

1230
01:07:09,320 --> 01:07:12,240
Speaker 6: so thank you to them, and so they took the

1231
01:07:12,280 --> 01:07:14,960
Speaker 6: crime scene DNA even though it was old, they were

1232
01:07:15,000 --> 01:07:17,080
Speaker 6: able to pull that full genome. So when you pull

1233
01:07:17,120 --> 01:07:19,320
Speaker 6: the full genome, you're not just looking at a handful

1234
01:07:19,360 --> 01:07:22,640
Speaker 6: of markers or even the seven hundred and fifty thousand

1235
01:07:22,680 --> 01:07:25,960
Speaker 6: we'll usually look out for genetic genealogy. Now you're looking

1236
01:07:26,080 --> 01:07:29,600
Speaker 6: at all of the genetic markers across the genome billions,

1237
01:07:30,000 --> 01:07:32,920
Speaker 6: and that's why you can then find those differences because

1238
01:07:33,200 --> 01:07:37,400
Speaker 6: we're all affected by our environment. Right, So even though

1239
01:07:37,440 --> 01:07:39,360
Speaker 6: they grew they were in the same womb and they

1240
01:07:39,360 --> 01:07:42,080
Speaker 6: grew up together, there's still different choices that people make

1241
01:07:42,120 --> 01:07:44,760
Speaker 6: in life, Like if you smoke cigarettes might cause a

1242
01:07:44,800 --> 01:07:48,720
Speaker 6: somatic mutation that only you have and not your twin,

1243
01:07:49,200 --> 01:07:51,280
Speaker 6: and those don't get passed down, so they're not going

1244
01:07:51,320 --> 01:07:54,400
Speaker 6: to be inheritable. This isn't the type of genetics where

1245
01:07:54,440 --> 01:07:57,280
Speaker 6: you say, oh, you know it's inherited in this family.

1246
01:07:57,360 --> 01:07:59,120
Speaker 6: It runs in this family, or I got that from

1247
01:07:59,200 --> 01:08:02,520
Speaker 6: mom or Dad. Don't get this because it's not in

1248
01:08:02,600 --> 01:08:05,919
Speaker 6: those reproductive cells. It's only in the non reproductive cell.

1249
01:08:06,520 --> 01:08:11,960
Speaker 6: But everybody have different ones because they live different lives.

1250
01:08:12,400 --> 01:08:14,280
Speaker 3: You're blowing my mind a little bit, are you saying

1251
01:08:14,640 --> 01:08:19,040
Speaker 3: like environmental factors can like modify your DNA a little

1252
01:08:19,080 --> 01:08:23,440
Speaker 3: bit like at the normal really, because then there's markers.

1253
01:08:23,520 --> 01:08:26,160
Speaker 2: So if you're if you're looking at in the correct

1254
01:08:26,160 --> 01:08:28,439
Speaker 2: me if I'm wrong, CC, I don't mean to overstate here,

1255
01:08:28,479 --> 01:08:31,720
Speaker 2: but getting is correctly. So if you know, if there

1256
01:08:31,800 --> 01:08:34,720
Speaker 2: was a set of twins, Body and Courtney. They're both

1257
01:08:34,720 --> 01:08:38,880
Speaker 2: adorable and perfect, and one of them just makes different choices.

1258
01:08:38,960 --> 01:08:41,599
Speaker 2: One's a little boozier, one's a little bit of a smoker,

1259
01:08:41,720 --> 01:08:45,160
Speaker 2: et cetera. That is putting some air quotes dense or

1260
01:08:45,240 --> 01:08:49,639
Speaker 2: tells into this what would normally be identical DNA.

1261
01:08:50,200 --> 01:08:52,200
Speaker 3: So my d to become a.

1262
01:08:52,200 --> 01:08:56,040
Speaker 6: Mutant, that's right. And so even like your job, like

1263
01:08:56,080 --> 01:08:59,200
Speaker 6: if you're exposed to radiation or you're a fun worshiper

1264
01:08:59,240 --> 01:09:02,960
Speaker 6: and you go out in a lot, that damage yourself,

1265
01:09:03,040 --> 01:09:05,759
Speaker 6: it damages your DNA. The other thing that can happen

1266
01:09:05,800 --> 01:09:08,840
Speaker 6: is when your DNA replicates or repairs itself, it can

1267
01:09:08,880 --> 01:09:11,479
Speaker 6: make mistakes. And so that mistakes only going to happen

1268
01:09:11,479 --> 01:09:13,639
Speaker 6: in you, right, not your twin. Even though your DNA

1269
01:09:13,720 --> 01:09:16,559
Speaker 6: is the same to start, So there are these really

1270
01:09:16,600 --> 01:09:20,600
Speaker 6: minute differences. Now, these somatic mutations are usually not a

1271
01:09:20,640 --> 01:09:23,639
Speaker 6: good thing. You know, that's what causes cancer in many cases.

1272
01:09:23,640 --> 01:09:26,960
Speaker 6: When they say it's not genetic, that's because it was

1273
01:09:26,960 --> 01:09:30,599
Speaker 6: some sort of environmental or just a bad luck mutation.

1274
01:09:30,840 --> 01:09:34,599
Speaker 6: You know, things happen spontaneously too. You just you get

1275
01:09:34,640 --> 01:09:36,719
Speaker 6: that copy error or your DNA is trying to repair

1276
01:09:36,720 --> 01:09:39,840
Speaker 6: it MOLF and it messes up, and so that can

1277
01:09:39,920 --> 01:09:42,519
Speaker 6: cause one twin to get cancer where another one would not.

1278
01:09:43,240 --> 01:09:45,960
Speaker 6: And so you can also have a beneficial one, though

1279
01:09:45,960 --> 01:09:50,240
Speaker 6: it's more rare, Like some people have a mutation that

1280
01:09:50,400 --> 01:09:55,080
Speaker 6: makes them not susceptible to HIV, and so then that

1281
01:09:55,120 --> 01:09:59,160
Speaker 6: would be a somatic mutation that's actually beneficial to us.

1282
01:09:59,240 --> 01:10:01,000
Speaker 6: But most of the time or not, based on what

1283
01:10:01,040 --> 01:10:03,240
Speaker 6: I read, I'm not a scientist, you know, like that

1284
01:10:03,400 --> 01:10:06,639
Speaker 6: at all, So this is something I've learned as well,

1285
01:10:06,640 --> 01:10:07,280
Speaker 6: because you're in.

1286
01:10:07,320 --> 01:10:11,160
Speaker 2: The common sense scientist you know that also really does

1287
01:10:11,400 --> 01:10:13,760
Speaker 2: track right, like you're actually understanding this.

1288
01:10:13,880 --> 01:10:18,599
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly exactly. You make it sound so palatable. Thank

1289
01:10:18,640 --> 01:10:22,400
Speaker 3: you for just communicating so well. You have a really

1290
01:10:22,400 --> 01:10:25,160
Speaker 3: good way of explaining this. So yeah, okay, continue, I'm fascinated.

1291
01:10:25,280 --> 01:10:27,400
Speaker 6: Well again, I'm a non scientist, so I can say it,

1292
01:10:27,520 --> 01:10:30,440
Speaker 6: you know, plainly, but I think it's just so fascinating

1293
01:10:30,520 --> 01:10:31,200
Speaker 6: when you read.

1294
01:10:31,040 --> 01:10:31,559
Speaker 4: This like this.

1295
01:10:31,760 --> 01:10:34,080
Speaker 6: It's just because you would have to have enough of

1296
01:10:34,120 --> 01:10:37,639
Speaker 6: those to have a high confidence level, right, because twins

1297
01:10:37,720 --> 01:10:40,719
Speaker 6: might happen to get some of the same somatic mutations

1298
01:10:40,760 --> 01:10:44,400
Speaker 6: if they grow up together they're in utero together if

1299
01:10:44,439 --> 01:10:47,640
Speaker 6: they're doing a lot of the same things. So you know,

1300
01:10:47,640 --> 01:10:49,280
Speaker 6: I didn't do the analysis, so I don't know all

1301
01:10:49,320 --> 01:10:51,639
Speaker 6: the details of it. You'd have to talk to doctor Katie.

1302
01:10:51,640 --> 01:10:53,960
Speaker 6: But in order to be able to testify in court

1303
01:10:54,000 --> 01:10:56,000
Speaker 6: that you're really sure that you have a high level

1304
01:10:56,000 --> 01:10:58,680
Speaker 6: of confidence it's one versus the other, there'd have to

1305
01:10:58,720 --> 01:11:01,400
Speaker 6: be you know, a significant number of differences, and I

1306
01:11:01,439 --> 01:11:05,759
Speaker 6: mean scientifically significant, because there also can rarely be back mutation,

1307
01:11:06,439 --> 01:11:09,360
Speaker 6: where somebody can have a somatic mutation and then it

1308
01:11:09,360 --> 01:11:12,120
Speaker 6: can reverse itself. It's rare, but it's not.

1309
01:11:12,080 --> 01:11:14,679
Speaker 3: On Oh my goodness, that's interesting too.

1310
01:11:15,120 --> 01:11:19,320
Speaker 6: Wow, how that mutation at sixteen but not have it

1311
01:11:19,360 --> 01:11:21,679
Speaker 6: at thirty five? And again, as I said, it's rare,

1312
01:11:22,320 --> 01:11:26,679
Speaker 6: but back mutations are so cool. It's when your cells

1313
01:11:26,800 --> 01:11:29,639
Speaker 6: mutat or your DNA mutates, and then it mutates again

1314
01:11:29,720 --> 01:11:32,519
Speaker 6: and it happens to reverse itself. But I remember reading

1315
01:11:32,600 --> 01:11:34,639
Speaker 6: about that, like, you know, a decade and a half ago,

1316
01:11:34,760 --> 01:11:38,520
Speaker 6: just thinking that is so interesting. I love genetics.

1317
01:11:38,760 --> 01:11:41,559
Speaker 3: It's fascinating. So this is true crime tonight. I'm body

1318
01:11:41,560 --> 01:11:43,960
Speaker 3: MoveOn and I'm here with Stephanieleidecker and Courtney Armstrong and

1319
01:11:44,000 --> 01:11:47,240
Speaker 3: we are super blessed to be joined by CC Moore.

1320
01:11:47,720 --> 01:11:51,439
Speaker 3: She is a famed genetic genealogist. We are talking about

1321
01:11:51,439 --> 01:11:56,840
Speaker 3: this groundbreaking, like landmark case of two twins, well one

1322
01:11:56,920 --> 01:12:00,479
Speaker 3: twin who basically raped a woman left sea and behind

1323
01:12:00,479 --> 01:12:02,400
Speaker 3: and they were able to tell which twin it was.

1324
01:12:02,439 --> 01:12:05,479
Speaker 3: This is the first time in the United States that

1325
01:12:05,520 --> 01:12:08,080
Speaker 3: this has happened. So we're talking about this case and

1326
01:12:08,160 --> 01:12:10,600
Speaker 3: I am literally transfixed. If you want to weigh in,

1327
01:12:10,600 --> 01:12:12,840
Speaker 3: give us a call. Eighty eight thirty one crime.

1328
01:12:13,160 --> 01:12:13,360
Speaker 4: CC.

1329
01:12:13,560 --> 01:12:15,280
Speaker 3: Is this going to help other cases?

1330
01:12:16,640 --> 01:12:19,160
Speaker 6: It certainly should. You know, we've seen a number of

1331
01:12:19,200 --> 01:12:22,840
Speaker 6: cases over the years where the twins, you know, point

1332
01:12:23,000 --> 01:12:26,200
Speaker 6: at each other and they're at a standstill, and so

1333
01:12:26,400 --> 01:12:30,040
Speaker 6: if you can't get a confession, or there was a

1334
01:12:30,080 --> 01:12:32,720
Speaker 6: case here where I live in Orange County where they

1335
01:12:32,960 --> 01:12:35,840
Speaker 6: listened in when the twins were talking and they were

1336
01:12:35,840 --> 01:12:38,840
Speaker 6: able to convict one of them based on that. But

1337
01:12:38,960 --> 01:12:41,880
Speaker 6: if you don't have that they're really stealthy and they're

1338
01:12:41,920 --> 01:12:44,600
Speaker 6: really careful and neither back down, then you would be

1339
01:12:44,680 --> 01:12:48,920
Speaker 6: sucked because you would always have that measure of doubt. Right,

1340
01:12:48,960 --> 01:12:52,720
Speaker 6: you could never convict somebody without reasonable doubt, and so

1341
01:12:52,840 --> 01:12:56,559
Speaker 6: any of those cases should start coming forward and ask

1342
01:12:56,680 --> 01:12:58,880
Speaker 6: for this type of analysis, and we know now it

1343
01:12:58,920 --> 01:13:02,680
Speaker 6: can be done, and importantly the court accepted it, So

1344
01:13:02,720 --> 01:13:03,479
Speaker 6: that sets press.

1345
01:13:03,640 --> 01:13:04,400
Speaker 3: That's the big deal.

1346
01:13:05,320 --> 01:13:07,879
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, And that's really a big deal.

1347
01:13:07,720 --> 01:13:11,479
Speaker 3: With IDG in general. Like investigative genetic genealogy. Right, that's

1348
01:13:11,600 --> 01:13:15,719
Speaker 3: kind of been like a thing you know in news lately,

1349
01:13:15,920 --> 01:13:18,479
Speaker 3: right because of privacy concerns and things like that, but

1350
01:13:19,800 --> 01:13:21,559
Speaker 3: more states are kind of like allowing it.

1351
01:13:21,640 --> 01:13:25,240
Speaker 6: Right, Well, it's kind of complicated and it takes more

1352
01:13:25,280 --> 01:13:28,479
Speaker 6: time than we have to discuss. But the bott line

1353
01:13:28,560 --> 01:13:32,160
Speaker 6: is it always goes back to that str profile, which

1354
01:13:32,200 --> 01:13:35,160
Speaker 6: is the traditional profile that is used in a court

1355
01:13:35,160 --> 01:13:39,719
Speaker 6: of law. And so the genetic genealogy, which is SNIP based,

1356
01:13:39,760 --> 01:13:44,080
Speaker 6: which is single nucleo hide poly polymorphisms, is really just

1357
01:13:44,240 --> 01:13:47,280
Speaker 6: used as a tip. It's a lead generator. It's like

1358
01:13:47,320 --> 01:13:49,400
Speaker 6: if I call the name into crime Stoppers, they'd have

1359
01:13:49,439 --> 01:13:52,760
Speaker 6: to do their full investigation and due diligence. Same thing

1360
01:13:52,800 --> 01:13:54,559
Speaker 6: when I give them a not name and I say

1361
01:13:54,680 --> 01:13:57,400
Speaker 6: genetic genealogy is pointing at this guy, they can't just

1362
01:13:57,439 --> 01:13:59,600
Speaker 6: go out and arrest him. They have to get that

1363
01:13:59,760 --> 01:14:04,639
Speaker 6: stg TR profile, their courtedmissible DNA match before they can

1364
01:14:04,800 --> 01:14:07,800
Speaker 6: do that, and so they'll usually go and collect surreptitious

1365
01:14:07,880 --> 01:14:10,639
Speaker 6: DNA meaning they'll get his trash or they'll fall into

1366
01:14:10,720 --> 01:14:14,080
Speaker 6: a restaurant, they'll wait till he drops his cigarette, that

1367
01:14:14,200 --> 01:14:16,880
Speaker 6: type of thing, and then that is what they use

1368
01:14:16,920 --> 01:14:21,800
Speaker 6: for the basis of the arrest. The Humorman case is

1369
01:14:22,600 --> 01:14:27,920
Speaker 6: notable in that they used SNIP testing, So that's what

1370
01:14:28,040 --> 01:14:31,000
Speaker 6: the difference is. The SNIP genetic markers is a totally

1371
01:14:31,000 --> 01:14:36,080
Speaker 6: different type of DNA than the STRs, which is that traditional, accepted,

1372
01:14:36,360 --> 01:14:40,240
Speaker 6: cortedmissible profile. So with genetic genealogy, we've been arguing all

1373
01:14:40,280 --> 01:14:43,000
Speaker 6: along it shouldn't be courted missible. It doesn't need to

1374
01:14:43,000 --> 01:14:45,320
Speaker 6: be because they can always go back to that str

1375
01:14:45,439 --> 01:14:48,320
Speaker 6: profile that they created years or decades ago on these

1376
01:14:48,680 --> 01:14:52,719
Speaker 6: cold cases. But if you have a rootless hair, meaning

1377
01:14:52,800 --> 01:14:56,360
Speaker 6: if you have a piece of hair, that's right, and

1378
01:14:56,400 --> 01:15:00,759
Speaker 6: so with those you cannot pull STRs. You can only snips.

1379
01:15:01,280 --> 01:15:04,599
Speaker 6: And the reason you can pull snips is because doctor

1380
01:15:04,760 --> 01:15:07,960
Speaker 6: ed Green from UC Santa Cruz didn't listen to all

1381
01:15:08,000 --> 01:15:10,599
Speaker 6: the scientists who said it could never be done, and

1382
01:15:10,680 --> 01:15:14,080
Speaker 6: he did it. So we have solved multiple cases. I

1383
01:15:14,280 --> 01:15:18,240
Speaker 6: myself have been involved in I think five cases where

1384
01:15:18,280 --> 01:15:21,040
Speaker 6: all they had was rootless hair and they didn't have

1385
01:15:21,160 --> 01:15:25,200
Speaker 6: this str profile to fall back on. So the Hureman

1386
01:15:25,240 --> 01:15:29,320
Speaker 6: case is important, but the judge based his decision partially

1387
01:15:29,360 --> 01:15:32,240
Speaker 6: on some of my cases. We already had one in

1388
01:15:32,280 --> 01:15:36,120
Speaker 6: California accepted, and the SBI had one accepted in Idaho.

1389
01:15:36,400 --> 01:15:38,599
Speaker 6: They just want a high profile, so people didn't care

1390
01:15:38,640 --> 01:15:42,320
Speaker 6: about it. So they're actually at least the third, no

1391
01:15:42,880 --> 01:15:45,240
Speaker 6: less than the third case that accepted it, the first

1392
01:15:45,240 --> 01:15:46,920
Speaker 6: one in New York, but not the first in the

1393
01:15:47,000 --> 01:15:51,160
Speaker 6: United States. And so we're starting to move toward snip testing,

1394
01:15:51,200 --> 01:15:55,400
Speaker 6: which is much more precise and confident being accepted in

1395
01:15:55,439 --> 01:15:57,920
Speaker 6: a court of law. So that was a hurdle that

1396
01:15:58,080 --> 01:16:01,519
Speaker 6: needed to happen. US talked about this a little that's

1397
01:16:01,600 --> 01:16:05,160
Speaker 6: old technology. Yeah, we're moving forward finally, right, So.

1398
01:16:05,040 --> 01:16:08,360
Speaker 3: They My understanding in lisk is and we talked about

1399
01:16:08,360 --> 01:16:10,120
Speaker 3: this a little bit last night in California and Idaho

1400
01:16:10,200 --> 01:16:12,920
Speaker 3: and now New York is they basically had to like

1401
01:16:13,400 --> 01:16:15,920
Speaker 3: build the gnome. Is that right? Is that the right

1402
01:16:15,960 --> 01:16:18,479
Speaker 3: way to say it. They had to like exclerate what.

1403
01:16:18,439 --> 01:16:22,760
Speaker 6: Would be it's much more segmented fragmented, I should say,

1404
01:16:23,240 --> 01:16:26,720
Speaker 6: and so you get little tiny pieces. So it's Austraya

1405
01:16:26,760 --> 01:16:30,800
Speaker 6: Forensics in Santa CRUs that's doing this, and they are

1406
01:16:30,880 --> 01:16:35,920
Speaker 6: using this novel technique but never done before anywhere. It's

1407
01:16:35,960 --> 01:16:39,920
Speaker 6: amazing and the DNA looks different. So the first few

1408
01:16:39,960 --> 01:16:43,080
Speaker 6: cases I worked, I really had to look at it

1409
01:16:43,080 --> 01:16:45,479
Speaker 6: in a different way because we weren't seeing these long,

1410
01:16:45,560 --> 01:16:49,240
Speaker 6: identical segments of DNA that we usually use in genetic genealogy.

1411
01:16:49,560 --> 01:16:53,160
Speaker 6: They were much smaller. But Australia has gotten really good

1412
01:16:53,200 --> 01:16:56,160
Speaker 6: at stringing those together now and filling in the gaps.

1413
01:16:56,280 --> 01:16:58,479
Speaker 6: So now when you get one of those profiles, it's

1414
01:16:58,520 --> 01:17:01,400
Speaker 6: really not that different than working with any other profile

1415
01:17:01,439 --> 01:17:05,000
Speaker 6: for genetic genealogy. That's because they've made advances over the

1416
01:17:05,120 --> 01:17:07,519
Speaker 6: years that they've been working on it. But they're taking

1417
01:17:07,560 --> 01:17:10,519
Speaker 6: these fragments and sort of sewing them back together. For

1418
01:17:10,640 --> 01:17:13,320
Speaker 6: lack of it scientific way of explaining it.

1419
01:17:13,680 --> 01:17:18,559
Speaker 4: Wow, it's so amazing and complex, and again you're able

1420
01:17:18,560 --> 01:17:22,439
Speaker 4: to boil it down so that fellow theater majors like

1421
01:17:22,520 --> 01:17:29,919
Speaker 4: myself can actually understand Courtney are talking about a little.

1422
01:17:29,720 --> 01:17:34,120
Speaker 3: Pippin' anyone was it singing dancing? What was the Theatris

1423
01:17:34,400 --> 01:17:35,640
Speaker 3: CC for me.

1424
01:17:35,880 --> 01:17:39,240
Speaker 6: I started as a vocal performance major, which ended up

1425
01:17:39,240 --> 01:17:42,080
Speaker 6: being opera, which wasn't really what I was planning. I

1426
01:17:42,160 --> 01:17:44,720
Speaker 6: was a musical theater lover, and I just thought, Oh,

1427
01:17:44,760 --> 01:17:46,280
Speaker 6: I want to sing all major and vocal.

1428
01:17:46,560 --> 01:17:48,519
Speaker 3: We're going to hold that thought really quick. We're going

1429
01:17:48,600 --> 01:17:50,880
Speaker 3: to come back with ccmore this time, just not about

1430
01:17:50,880 --> 01:17:53,120
Speaker 3: cracking a cold case. She's going to be digging into

1431
01:17:53,160 --> 01:17:55,080
Speaker 3: how this is so groundbreaking. Keep it right here at

1432
01:17:55,080 --> 01:17:57,840
Speaker 3: True Crime Tonight. We're talking true crime all the time.

1433
01:18:08,080 --> 01:18:11,040
Speaker 2: We have Cecy Moore, who was really, frankly the queen

1434
01:18:11,160 --> 01:18:14,360
Speaker 2: of all things DNA and genetics. We've been kind of

1435
01:18:14,439 --> 01:18:17,479
Speaker 2: yapping during the break here just about what a great

1436
01:18:17,520 --> 01:18:20,320
Speaker 2: talker you are, so good, and how you make us

1437
01:18:20,360 --> 01:18:24,120
Speaker 2: all feel smarter and more informed. You know, we've been

1438
01:18:24,120 --> 01:18:27,320
Speaker 2: following the Brian Coberger case obviously so very closely here

1439
01:18:27,360 --> 01:18:31,200
Speaker 2: on the show. We've made the podcast, the documentary, et cetera. Obviously,

1440
01:18:31,320 --> 01:18:34,200
Speaker 2: DNA is at the core of this, including the genetic

1441
01:18:34,240 --> 01:18:38,240
Speaker 2: genealogy testing. Would love to jump into that a little bit.

1442
01:18:39,920 --> 01:18:41,799
Speaker 6: Yeah, you know, one thing I wanted to say about

1443
01:18:41,840 --> 01:18:46,080
Speaker 6: that is that everyone was really focused on that case

1444
01:18:46,280 --> 01:18:49,679
Speaker 6: as studying precedent in the courts, but we already had

1445
01:18:49,840 --> 01:18:54,880
Speaker 6: over seventy five convictions from people identified through investigative genetic genealogy,

1446
01:18:55,240 --> 01:18:57,680
Speaker 6: but they just didn't get as much attention. So there

1447
01:18:57,760 --> 01:19:00,200
Speaker 6: was a lot of fear that the judge would give

1448
01:19:00,200 --> 01:19:02,479
Speaker 6: a lot more leeway because it was a death penalty

1449
01:19:02,840 --> 01:19:07,840
Speaker 6: case and that that could negatively impact our future cases. Now,

1450
01:19:07,840 --> 01:19:10,880
Speaker 6: I don't think anyone really thought that would happen, but

1451
01:19:11,080 --> 01:19:13,400
Speaker 6: we did see him giving a lot more leeway to

1452
01:19:13,439 --> 01:19:16,040
Speaker 6: the defense because I think because it was a death

1453
01:19:16,040 --> 01:19:19,920
Speaker 6: penalty case, and rightly so. But it made us nervous

1454
01:19:19,960 --> 01:19:23,479
Speaker 6: because we had this really strong precedent that was already

1455
01:19:23,479 --> 01:19:25,719
Speaker 6: set all over North America, not even just the US,

1456
01:19:25,720 --> 01:19:28,640
Speaker 6: but in Canada as well, and we didn't want to

1457
01:19:28,680 --> 01:19:31,120
Speaker 6: see any of that be reversed, you know, because we

1458
01:19:31,120 --> 01:19:33,160
Speaker 6: were so happy it was moving in the right direction

1459
01:19:33,680 --> 01:19:37,599
Speaker 6: and it was keeping genetic genealogy out of the courts

1460
01:19:37,640 --> 01:19:40,840
Speaker 6: basically by considering it just a tip and then the

1461
01:19:40,880 --> 01:19:43,599
Speaker 6: evidence is what they gathered, you know, after they were

1462
01:19:43,640 --> 01:19:46,360
Speaker 6: pointed in the right direction, and so we were all

1463
01:19:46,400 --> 01:19:51,240
Speaker 6: super relieved that the judge kept his ruling in line

1464
01:19:51,320 --> 01:19:54,000
Speaker 6: with what had already been ruled in many, many other

1465
01:19:54,080 --> 01:19:56,439
Speaker 6: courts by other judges, And can I.

1466
01:19:56,439 --> 01:19:58,160
Speaker 2: Just break that down and make sure that I understand

1467
01:19:58,160 --> 01:20:01,760
Speaker 2: that correctly? So meaning, obviously we know that Brian Coberger's

1468
01:20:01,800 --> 01:20:07,240
Speaker 2: father had discarded trash on his saliva was somehow so

1469
01:20:07,400 --> 01:20:11,360
Speaker 2: cute with this or a cute tip exactly, and therefore

1470
01:20:11,479 --> 01:20:15,880
Speaker 2: the familial DLNA was identified Brian Coberger obviously.

1471
01:20:15,439 --> 01:20:16,439
Speaker 3: Being the sun.

1472
01:20:18,120 --> 01:20:21,600
Speaker 2: If that had been dismissed or inadmissible in court, is

1473
01:20:21,640 --> 01:20:24,800
Speaker 2: that the fear that suddenly that would have maybe I

1474
01:20:24,840 --> 01:20:28,479
Speaker 2: put a shadow on this type of testing in court

1475
01:20:28,640 --> 01:20:30,839
Speaker 2: because it was a death sential trial and the provisions

1476
01:20:30,840 --> 01:20:31,320
Speaker 2: are higher.

1477
01:20:32,280 --> 01:20:34,760
Speaker 6: It actually wasn't that part. So that part of it

1478
01:20:34,800 --> 01:20:38,560
Speaker 6: goes back to the crime lab that is port admissible

1479
01:20:38,640 --> 01:20:42,400
Speaker 6: because they are going back to that traditional str profile

1480
01:20:42,479 --> 01:20:45,719
Speaker 6: that has been used in paternity tests and criminal cases

1481
01:20:46,120 --> 01:20:50,200
Speaker 6: for decades, and so that really didn't affect us. That

1482
01:20:50,400 --> 01:20:54,560
Speaker 6: was after the investigative genetic genealogy pointed toward Brian and

1483
01:20:54,600 --> 01:20:57,000
Speaker 6: they were trying to collect that search to DNA to

1484
01:20:57,040 --> 01:21:00,840
Speaker 6: confirm or refute that lead, and so they tried to

1485
01:21:00,840 --> 01:21:02,960
Speaker 6: get his DNA and ended up with his father's DNA,

1486
01:21:03,400 --> 01:21:06,040
Speaker 6: But then all they had to do was take those

1487
01:21:06,120 --> 01:21:09,680
Speaker 6: twenty str genetic markers and line it up against their

1488
01:21:09,680 --> 01:21:13,519
Speaker 6: crime scene and DNA, because we get half from Mom,

1489
01:21:13,600 --> 01:21:18,040
Speaker 6: half from Dad, right, so one whole column would match

1490
01:21:18,080 --> 01:21:21,960
Speaker 6: exactly to Dad's, one of his alleles would be go

1491
01:21:22,000 --> 01:21:24,479
Speaker 6: to Brian, and then one of Mom's alleles would go

1492
01:21:24,560 --> 01:21:26,640
Speaker 6: to Brian, and so they could see right away it

1493
01:21:26,640 --> 01:21:30,320
Speaker 6: was apparent child match. But that was after us. The

1494
01:21:30,360 --> 01:21:33,439
Speaker 6: real question was fruit of the poison try. And this

1495
01:21:33,479 --> 01:21:35,280
Speaker 6: has been brought up a lot, you know, because the

1496
01:21:35,400 --> 01:21:40,600
Speaker 6: FBI did use my heritage prof of my heritage database,

1497
01:21:40,680 --> 01:21:44,200
Speaker 6: which their terms of service bar law enforcement from using it.

1498
01:21:44,800 --> 01:21:47,479
Speaker 6: So that's not something my team has done. So that's

1499
01:21:47,520 --> 01:21:50,240
Speaker 6: actually not something that we had had come up in court,

1500
01:21:50,320 --> 01:21:53,320
Speaker 6: but other genetic genealogists have had that come up in

1501
01:21:53,360 --> 01:21:56,960
Speaker 6: court and even in appeal cases, and the ruling is

1502
01:21:57,040 --> 01:22:00,240
Speaker 6: always that where the public can go, law enforcement can go.

1503
01:22:00,600 --> 01:22:02,880
Speaker 6: So the company can say they don't like it, they

1504
01:22:02,920 --> 01:22:05,479
Speaker 6: can put it in their terms of service, but it's not,

1505
01:22:06,160 --> 01:22:09,720
Speaker 6: you know, a criminally legal issue. I say, it's not

1506
01:22:09,720 --> 01:22:10,519
Speaker 6: a legal issue.

1507
01:22:10,320 --> 01:22:13,920
Speaker 7: But they could suelie they would like exactly, but criminally

1508
01:22:13,960 --> 01:22:16,880
Speaker 7: it's not an issue, because it's not illegal for law

1509
01:22:16,960 --> 01:22:20,639
Speaker 7: enforcement to use a database surreptitiously that the public has

1510
01:22:20,640 --> 01:22:23,679
Speaker 7: full access to, and so that was the real question.

1511
01:22:24,040 --> 01:22:27,120
Speaker 3: Interesting. The first case I remember this being a thing

1512
01:22:27,200 --> 01:22:30,479
Speaker 3: in was Golden State Killer Joseph D'Angelo, which, by the way,

1513
01:22:30,680 --> 01:22:32,600
Speaker 3: I'll be Gone in the Dark. You're in that documentary

1514
01:22:32,640 --> 01:22:35,120
Speaker 3: and you are fabulous in it. I'm obsessed with it.

1515
01:22:35,200 --> 01:22:39,360
Speaker 3: It's so good, and I remember, but I don't was

1516
01:22:39,400 --> 01:22:42,080
Speaker 3: that an issue in that case? Was this privacy concern

1517
01:22:42,160 --> 01:22:43,920
Speaker 3: and whatnot an issue in that case too? Well?

1518
01:22:44,520 --> 01:22:48,120
Speaker 6: You know that was before any companies had any terms

1519
01:22:48,160 --> 01:22:52,439
Speaker 6: of service that addressed the issue. And so I had

1520
01:22:52,439 --> 01:22:56,120
Speaker 6: been working towards this idea of using genetic genealogy and

1521
01:22:56,439 --> 01:22:59,559
Speaker 6: the techniques that I had created for adoptees for law

1522
01:22:59,600 --> 01:23:02,000
Speaker 6: enforcement for a long time, but I knew it was

1523
01:23:02,000 --> 01:23:05,760
Speaker 6: going to be controversial. So I was plotting along very carefully,

1524
01:23:06,240 --> 01:23:10,960
Speaker 6: talking to genetic ethicis and attorneys and our own community,

1525
01:23:11,320 --> 01:23:14,360
Speaker 6: trying to find a way to do it ethically and responsibly.

1526
01:23:15,000 --> 01:23:19,080
Speaker 6: And so I wasn't at all surprised that it happened.

1527
01:23:19,160 --> 01:23:23,280
Speaker 6: But what did surprise me was how positively everyone reacted

1528
01:23:23,720 --> 01:23:26,200
Speaker 6: so much so universally that I was like, Wow, why

1529
01:23:26,240 --> 01:23:28,200
Speaker 6: have I been losing fleet for years trying to figure

1530
01:23:28,200 --> 01:23:30,679
Speaker 6: out how to do this without upsetting people and without

1531
01:23:31,080 --> 01:23:35,000
Speaker 6: raising these genetic privacy issues. Everyone was just so happy

1532
01:23:35,040 --> 01:23:37,479
Speaker 6: to have them caught that it was actually a good

1533
01:23:37,560 --> 01:23:40,000
Speaker 6: first case for it, you know, because it really got

1534
01:23:40,040 --> 01:23:44,680
Speaker 6: public support and really illustrated how powerful and important this

1535
01:23:44,800 --> 01:23:47,720
Speaker 6: work could be. And so that worked out. You know,

1536
01:23:47,760 --> 01:23:50,439
Speaker 6: I didn't work on that case that was barbaraventor right,

1537
01:23:50,520 --> 01:23:54,439
Speaker 6: and so I'd been plotting towards, inching towards that idea

1538
01:23:54,520 --> 01:23:57,080
Speaker 6: and then boom, that just blew the barn doors off,

1539
01:23:57,880 --> 01:24:00,240
Speaker 6: which is what allowed me to move forward. Then, because

1540
01:24:00,600 --> 01:24:04,320
Speaker 6: my concern was always using people's DNA, particularly people, i'd

1541
01:24:04,400 --> 01:24:08,280
Speaker 6: encourage the test, which I probably had indirectly, you know,

1542
01:24:08,400 --> 01:24:11,120
Speaker 6: encouraged millions of people to take these tests through my

1543
01:24:11,200 --> 01:24:14,719
Speaker 6: various you know work, all the stories I had out there,

1544
01:24:14,800 --> 01:24:18,439
Speaker 6: and I didn't want people to sell betrayed like I

1545
01:24:18,479 --> 01:24:21,040
Speaker 6: had used their DNA in a way they weren't aware

1546
01:24:21,080 --> 01:24:24,360
Speaker 6: it could be used. So after that, everybody knew if

1547
01:24:24,400 --> 01:24:27,840
Speaker 6: their DNA was in jetmatch it could be used that way.

1548
01:24:28,000 --> 01:24:30,240
Speaker 6: Most people thought if their DNA was an ancestry or

1549
01:24:30,280 --> 01:24:32,120
Speaker 6: twenty three and me, it could be used that way too,

1550
01:24:32,160 --> 01:24:34,120
Speaker 6: which is not the case, still not the case for

1551
01:24:34,240 --> 01:24:38,320
Speaker 6: this day. Most people think any consumer DNA test can

1552
01:24:38,360 --> 01:24:41,799
Speaker 6: be used for these purposes. But that's not true.

1553
01:24:42,320 --> 01:24:47,240
Speaker 3: But and CC have allowed me, Yeah, go ahead, I.

1554
01:24:47,200 --> 01:24:51,120
Speaker 4: Just said that because that that paused me. So Ancestry

1555
01:24:51,200 --> 01:24:54,200
Speaker 4: and twenty three and me you said, cannot be used.

1556
01:24:54,560 --> 01:24:57,720
Speaker 6: For no, because it has to be a database that

1557
01:24:57,880 --> 01:25:01,240
Speaker 6: allows uploads. Because of course we're using forensic labs to

1558
01:25:01,280 --> 01:25:05,200
Speaker 6: create these SNIT profiles. They're not being sent to ancestry

1559
01:25:05,240 --> 01:25:08,120
Speaker 6: or twenty three meters a process, and that's the only

1560
01:25:08,160 --> 01:25:11,080
Speaker 6: way you can get your DNA in their databases. Spit

1561
01:25:11,160 --> 01:25:13,599
Speaker 6: in that too. It has to be a living, breathing person.

1562
01:25:13,880 --> 01:25:17,320
Speaker 6: They required lots of saliva, not tiny tiny bits of

1563
01:25:17,400 --> 01:25:21,280
Speaker 6: DNA from crime scenes, not blood, not semen, but lots

1564
01:25:21,320 --> 01:25:24,080
Speaker 6: of saliva. And they partly require so much because they

1565
01:25:24,080 --> 01:25:26,200
Speaker 6: want to make sure that it's not surreptitious and the

1566
01:25:26,240 --> 01:25:29,680
Speaker 6: person who's being tested has consented to it, And so

1567
01:25:30,000 --> 01:25:34,559
Speaker 6: they can only technically use databases that allow uploads, which

1568
01:25:34,680 --> 01:25:38,040
Speaker 6: used to include my heritage, But after the Coburger case

1569
01:25:38,120 --> 01:25:41,839
Speaker 6: they stopped accepting uploads. Finally, because it went so public

1570
01:25:41,920 --> 01:25:44,840
Speaker 6: that their database had been used. I had been telling

1571
01:25:44,840 --> 01:25:48,280
Speaker 6: them since twenty eighteen, advising them, you know, that it

1572
01:25:48,360 --> 01:25:50,920
Speaker 6: was being used, and that they had hundreds of law

1573
01:25:51,000 --> 01:25:54,559
Speaker 6: enforcement files in there, and their users were not aware

1574
01:25:54,600 --> 01:25:56,560
Speaker 6: of that. And I really think that people deserve the

1575
01:25:56,640 --> 01:26:00,240
Speaker 6: right to decide. I want them to know that at

1576
01:26:00,720 --> 01:26:02,720
Speaker 6: law enforcement and he's using the database, and then they

1577
01:26:02,760 --> 01:26:05,120
Speaker 6: can decide whether they want to participate and support that

1578
01:26:05,240 --> 01:26:08,240
Speaker 6: or not. And most people will, as it turns out.

1579
01:26:08,320 --> 01:26:10,439
Speaker 6: I've been involved in long term studies that show most

1580
01:26:10,479 --> 01:26:14,640
Speaker 6: people are super supportive, like by far in a way majority,

1581
01:26:15,280 --> 01:26:18,559
Speaker 6: and most think we're using all of those databases anyway,

1582
01:26:18,920 --> 01:26:20,760
Speaker 6: So why I think let them know.

1583
01:26:21,320 --> 01:26:23,439
Speaker 3: I think at crime Con a couple of years ago,

1584
01:26:23,479 --> 01:26:26,200
Speaker 3: I think the Jane Doe project, it was collecting DNA

1585
01:26:26,560 --> 01:26:30,200
Speaker 3: from for jed match, and I did my data project, yeah,

1586
01:26:30,240 --> 01:26:32,680
Speaker 3: the DNA dough project, thank you, and I gave my

1587
01:26:32,800 --> 01:26:34,960
Speaker 3: DNA and they did it right there, and they said

1588
01:26:34,960 --> 01:26:37,559
Speaker 3: that they found like seventeen people or something that or

1589
01:26:37,560 --> 01:26:40,960
Speaker 3: they identified seventeen people just at crime Con alone, which

1590
01:26:41,000 --> 01:26:43,080
Speaker 3: is fascinating to me. And I think, if you have

1591
01:26:43,120 --> 01:26:45,479
Speaker 3: the opportunity to do that, you should do that. But

1592
01:26:45,800 --> 01:26:48,080
Speaker 3: do you think c see that the difference between let's

1593
01:26:48,160 --> 01:26:50,800
Speaker 3: let's put Coburger and Joseph di Angelo the Golden State

1594
01:26:50,880 --> 01:26:53,520
Speaker 3: Killer side by side, right. Do you think the issue

1595
01:26:53,640 --> 01:26:56,160
Speaker 3: is that is that Joseph Dangelo and the Golden State

1596
01:26:56,200 --> 01:26:57,960
Speaker 3: Killer was a cold case. Do you think that's why

1597
01:26:57,960 --> 01:27:00,959
Speaker 3: people were more acceptable of it.

1598
01:27:01,439 --> 01:27:03,280
Speaker 6: I think people haven't had a lot of time to

1599
01:27:03,320 --> 01:27:06,840
Speaker 6: think about the potential negative aspects of it and the

1600
01:27:06,880 --> 01:27:10,040
Speaker 6: privacy issues. Right away, everyone was just so happy he

1601
01:27:10,120 --> 01:27:13,559
Speaker 6: was caught and that his survivors of his crimes and

1602
01:27:13,600 --> 01:27:19,800
Speaker 6: the families finally had an answer and justice eventually with Coberger.

1603
01:27:19,840 --> 01:27:23,320
Speaker 6: Now we've had years to debate this, to think about it,

1604
01:27:23,400 --> 01:27:26,000
Speaker 6: for the ethicists to come up with questions, for the

1605
01:27:26,120 --> 01:27:31,720
Speaker 6: naysayers to amplify their voices, and so later after that

1606
01:27:31,920 --> 01:27:34,439
Speaker 6: is when we got more of the reaction I was

1607
01:27:34,479 --> 01:27:37,120
Speaker 6: expecting from the beginning, because I was always talking to

1608
01:27:37,680 --> 01:27:40,679
Speaker 6: the community about the genealogy community, and I have actually

1609
01:27:40,720 --> 01:27:45,439
Speaker 6: approached twenty three and these CEO in twenty twelve, the

1610
01:27:45,880 --> 01:27:50,639
Speaker 6: Ancestry DNA architect of their DNA system in twenty thirteen,

1611
01:27:50,800 --> 01:27:52,800
Speaker 6: or maybe even twenty twelve with them as well, and

1612
01:27:52,840 --> 01:27:55,320
Speaker 6: I'd been schooled on why they were not going to

1613
01:27:55,360 --> 01:27:58,479
Speaker 6: allow law enforcement in their databases. So I was super

1614
01:27:58,520 --> 01:28:02,400
Speaker 6: aware of all the issues really early, but most people

1615
01:28:02,439 --> 01:28:05,120
Speaker 6: hadn't had time to think about that yet when the

1616
01:28:05,160 --> 01:28:08,280
Speaker 6: gold and Peck killer was caught, so everyone was just celebrating.

1617
01:28:08,600 --> 01:28:12,040
Speaker 6: Months later is when people really started settling in, like,

1618
01:28:12,080 --> 01:28:15,560
Speaker 6: wait a minute, what does this really mean? So Coberger

1619
01:28:15,760 --> 01:28:19,920
Speaker 6: in that regard, you know, came after all of these

1620
01:28:19,960 --> 01:28:23,479
Speaker 6: discussions had already started and the concerns were much more

1621
01:28:24,479 --> 01:28:28,599
Speaker 6: discussed and out there in the open. But we also

1622
01:28:28,680 --> 01:28:32,439
Speaker 6: have to look at the public safety issue with him.

1623
01:28:32,680 --> 01:28:36,519
Speaker 6: You know, the FBI did go against the terms of service,

1624
01:28:37,160 --> 01:28:40,080
Speaker 6: but it was in the interest of public safety, because

1625
01:28:40,080 --> 01:28:44,160
Speaker 6: an active case is where we can really have the

1626
01:28:44,200 --> 01:28:50,080
Speaker 6: most important and significant impactly and save lives. Right, they

1627
01:28:50,120 --> 01:28:53,679
Speaker 6: did their job, and some people are unhappy about it,

1628
01:28:53,800 --> 01:28:57,639
Speaker 6: but their job is to save lives, which they very

1629
01:28:57,800 --> 01:29:00,680
Speaker 6: likely did since I mean it kind of unlikely it

1630
01:29:00,760 --> 01:29:02,400
Speaker 6: was a one and done thing and he would never

1631
01:29:02,439 --> 01:29:03,160
Speaker 6: do anything more.

1632
01:29:03,280 --> 01:29:05,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, he was just warming up. Let's be honest.

1633
01:29:06,040 --> 01:29:08,120
Speaker 2: Had he not been taken off the streets, he would

1634
01:29:08,120 --> 01:29:10,559
Speaker 2: have struck again, absolutely, I agree.

1635
01:29:10,600 --> 01:29:13,800
Speaker 6: You know, it's hard to argue otherwise because if he

1636
01:29:13,920 --> 01:29:16,000
Speaker 6: was successful, right, if he got away with it, that

1637
01:29:16,200 --> 01:29:19,640
Speaker 6: just pumped him up even more. And so you know,

1638
01:29:19,760 --> 01:29:22,280
Speaker 6: I have always been the loudest voice about doing things

1639
01:29:22,280 --> 01:29:24,960
Speaker 6: the right way, following the rule of best practices, follow

1640
01:29:25,040 --> 01:29:28,519
Speaker 6: the ethics. But in a case like that, I can

1641
01:29:28,640 --> 01:29:32,880
Speaker 6: also argue the other side. You know, these kids, these

1642
01:29:32,920 --> 01:29:35,599
Speaker 6: wonderful kids, were taken from their family, their lives were

1643
01:29:35,640 --> 01:29:38,600
Speaker 6: snuffed out, and he could have done it again a

1644
01:29:38,640 --> 01:29:42,040
Speaker 6: month later if they hadn't stopped him. And so in

1645
01:29:42,080 --> 01:29:45,400
Speaker 6: that case, I understand why they made the decisions that

1646
01:29:45,439 --> 01:29:49,960
Speaker 6: they made. I'm not necessarily saying, you know, it's right

1647
01:29:50,040 --> 01:29:52,479
Speaker 6: or wrong. I wouldn't have done it. My team doesn't

1648
01:29:52,560 --> 01:29:56,840
Speaker 6: do that. But I'm also not the FBI, so I'm

1649
01:29:56,880 --> 01:30:00,080
Speaker 6: still a layman. And so I'm sure they talked to

1650
01:30:00,520 --> 01:30:06,960
Speaker 6: the DOJ and got an exception and proceeded because I

1651
01:30:07,000 --> 01:30:08,960
Speaker 6: know that that's something that happened. Some people say, you

1652
01:30:08,960 --> 01:30:11,320
Speaker 6: know what am I talking about? They criticizing me. I've

1653
01:30:11,360 --> 01:30:16,160
Speaker 6: spoken to FBI professionals. He told me they are able

1654
01:30:16,240 --> 01:30:20,679
Speaker 6: to get exceptions when it's a real public safety threat,

1655
01:30:20,840 --> 01:30:24,680
Speaker 6: which obviously that one was and so I believe they

1656
01:30:24,960 --> 01:30:28,040
Speaker 6: very likely got permission to do that from their superiors.

1657
01:30:28,080 --> 01:30:31,680
Speaker 6: So it wasn't like they just went rogue and did it,

1658
01:30:32,200 --> 01:30:36,200
Speaker 6: you know, behind the scenes. But regardless, they didn't break

1659
01:30:36,240 --> 01:30:38,720
Speaker 6: any laws. And that's what our court come down to.

1660
01:30:38,880 --> 01:30:39,000
Speaker 2: Right.

1661
01:30:39,040 --> 01:30:41,080
Speaker 6: You can argue all you want the ethics of it,

1662
01:30:41,560 --> 01:30:44,280
Speaker 6: but they didn't break any criminal laws by doing it,

1663
01:30:44,320 --> 01:30:46,719
Speaker 6: and so that is why they lost. The defense lost

1664
01:30:46,760 --> 01:30:50,559
Speaker 6: that argument, and that DNA evidence was allowed to be kept,

1665
01:30:50,560 --> 01:30:54,120
Speaker 6: which is what led ultimately to his cle deal. Because

1666
01:30:54,120 --> 01:30:56,200
Speaker 6: that's happened in so many of my cases where the

1667
01:30:56,240 --> 01:31:00,160
Speaker 6: defense has tried to fight the genetic genealogy use and

1668
01:31:00,200 --> 01:31:04,120
Speaker 6: without using my heritage, but just in general using it,

1669
01:31:04,160 --> 01:31:07,800
Speaker 6: and they lose, and then the criminal takes a plea

1670
01:31:07,840 --> 01:31:09,880
Speaker 6: deal and it keeps the family from having to go

1671
01:31:09,960 --> 01:31:13,840
Speaker 6: through that trial and have those wounds ripped back open

1672
01:31:13,920 --> 01:31:15,400
Speaker 6: in a twenty year old case.

1673
01:31:16,040 --> 01:31:19,160
Speaker 4: Well, any cc once, I mean, you've done this now

1674
01:31:19,240 --> 01:31:22,120
Speaker 4: about seven times and just shed light on things that

1675
01:31:22,720 --> 01:31:25,720
Speaker 4: I personally and we collectively have been looking into and

1676
01:31:25,800 --> 01:31:28,520
Speaker 4: yet couldn't quite understand. Do you know how many interviews

1677
01:31:28,800 --> 01:31:31,280
Speaker 4: we've done about the Fourth Amendment and Brian Coberger, and

1678
01:31:31,320 --> 01:31:34,519
Speaker 4: you cleared it up in a radio segment. So yeah,

1679
01:31:34,560 --> 01:31:37,080
Speaker 4: this in you really are a star and a queen,

1680
01:31:37,160 --> 01:31:40,680
Speaker 4: as Devanie said, and CC before we wrap, we have

1681
01:31:40,760 --> 01:31:43,880
Speaker 4: a couple of minutes left. And I understand you started

1682
01:31:43,920 --> 01:31:47,400
Speaker 4: a new database called DNA justice dot org.

1683
01:31:48,240 --> 01:31:49,000
Speaker 3: Tell us about it.

1684
01:31:49,080 --> 01:31:51,880
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, and you know what, this conversation leads right

1685
01:31:51,920 --> 01:31:54,479
Speaker 6: into it. So even though over fifty million people have

1686
01:31:54,560 --> 01:31:58,200
Speaker 6: taken consumer DNA tests, we are unfortunately limited to the

1687
01:31:58,200 --> 01:32:02,200
Speaker 6: two smallest databases and only about two million people are

1688
01:32:02,200 --> 01:32:05,280
Speaker 6: in those, and so it's really hard to solve these crimes.

1689
01:32:05,280 --> 01:32:08,640
Speaker 6: It takes a lot of skill, resources time. If we

1690
01:32:08,880 --> 01:32:12,799
Speaker 6: could have access to a larger database, like the FBI

1691
01:32:12,880 --> 01:32:15,599
Speaker 6: did in the Coburger case, then we can identify these

1692
01:32:15,640 --> 01:32:18,240
Speaker 6: violent from those much more quickly. The other problem is

1693
01:32:18,280 --> 01:32:22,280
Speaker 6: the two databases were allowed to use are owned by

1694
01:32:22,360 --> 01:32:26,080
Speaker 6: for profit private companies, so they could change their minds

1695
01:32:26,240 --> 01:32:30,240
Speaker 6: and decide to walk law enforcement. They could sell it

1696
01:32:30,520 --> 01:32:35,960
Speaker 6: to a private person or company and make it proprietary,

1697
01:32:36,000 --> 01:32:38,839
Speaker 6: and they keep raising their prices. So when we started

1698
01:32:38,880 --> 01:32:42,040
Speaker 6: it was free, and then it was very inexpensive. Now

1699
01:32:42,320 --> 01:32:45,160
Speaker 6: it's one thousand dollars for law enforcement to upload one

1700
01:32:45,240 --> 01:32:48,759
Speaker 6: case to jedmatch and fourteen hundred to family Tree DNA,

1701
01:32:49,280 --> 01:32:50,920
Speaker 6: and they have a bit of a monopoly, right they

1702
01:32:50,960 --> 01:32:54,719
Speaker 6: can just keep raising those prices. So I started a

1703
01:32:54,760 --> 01:32:59,160
Speaker 6: non profit database that is just for law enforcement use.

1704
01:33:00,120 --> 01:33:02,680
Speaker 6: So you have to be doing a good deed to

1705
01:33:02,720 --> 01:33:04,599
Speaker 6: help us out here, because you're not going to get

1706
01:33:04,600 --> 01:33:07,479
Speaker 6: anything back, and that's what makes it hard, because you're

1707
01:33:07,479 --> 01:33:09,439
Speaker 6: not going to be able to see your own matches.

1708
01:33:09,920 --> 01:33:12,639
Speaker 6: But it's also good for people that are worried about

1709
01:33:12,880 --> 01:33:15,479
Speaker 6: their genetic privacy, meaning maybe they don't want to find

1710
01:33:15,479 --> 01:33:19,800
Speaker 6: their adopted sister, find any unexpected family surprises. They can

1711
01:33:19,840 --> 01:33:24,240
Speaker 6: still help law enforcement because only law enforcement and professional

1712
01:33:24,280 --> 01:33:28,040
Speaker 6: genetic genealogists working the cases are able to get there.

1713
01:33:28,200 --> 01:33:29,439
Speaker 3: That is so wonderful.

1714
01:33:29,520 --> 01:33:35,400
Speaker 4: Listen Ceecmore week, Thank you one million times, and yeah

1715
01:33:35,960 --> 01:33:38,439
Speaker 4: Cecmore on True Crime Tonight