1 00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: Hey, Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 2 00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:11,520 Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb. Today's Saturday, so we have a vault 3 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:15,760 Speaker 1: episode for you. This is an interview episode that Joe 4 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:19,560 Speaker 1: and I conducted last year. It originally published three eleven, 5 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:24,079 Speaker 1: twenty twenty five, and it is our latest interview with 6 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:28,920 Speaker 1: Mark Mandinka, executive director of the Amphibian Foundation here in Atlanta. 7 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:32,920 Speaker 1: Mark returns to the show here to discuss the plight 8 00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:36,000 Speaker 1: of amphibian's in current conservation efforts at the time for 9 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:37,280 Speaker 1: critically endangered species. 10 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:37,560 Speaker 2: Again. 11 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:41,239 Speaker 1: This one originally published three eleven, twenty twenty five. We're 12 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:42,519 Speaker 1: gonna have to have him back on the show in 13 00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:47,559 Speaker 1: the future to catch up on what's been going on. 14 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:52,239 Speaker 3: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production of iHeartRadio. 15 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:01,120 Speaker 4: Hello, and welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My 16 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:04,080 Speaker 4: name is Joe McCormick, my name is Robert Lamb, and 17 00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:07,959 Speaker 4: today we're bringing you a new interview with Mark Mendica, 18 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:12,240 Speaker 4: executive director of the Amphibian Foundation based in Atlanta. 19 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:14,959 Speaker 1: Mark has been on the show a couple of times before, 20 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:18,200 Speaker 1: highlighting the work that the Amphibian Foundation does to help 21 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:23,399 Speaker 1: critically endangered amphibian species and to educate the public about herpetology. 22 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:27,600 Speaker 1: But it's been several years and the Amphibian Foundation recently 23 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:30,160 Speaker 1: celebrated its tenth year, so we figured it was high 24 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:32,280 Speaker 1: time to check back in with Mark. 25 00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:36,000 Speaker 4: We'll start with a bit of biographical information. Mark Mandica 26 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:39,600 Speaker 4: is the co founder and executive director of the Amphibian Foundation, 27 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:44,680 Speaker 4: a nonprofit organization dedicated to the study and conservation of amphibians. 28 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:47,280 Speaker 4: His work puts him on the front line in efforts 29 00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 4: to conserve declining native and tropical amphibians. He received his 30 00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 4: bs from UMass where his thesis focused on the ephemeral 31 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 4: wetland ecology of amphibians. He then went on to the 32 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 4: American Museum of Natural History in New York, where he 33 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 4: worked as a curatorial assistant before moving to South Florida 34 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:09,080 Speaker 4: for graduate school at U Miami. Mark's masters explored the 35 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:14,160 Speaker 4: amphibian community ecology in the Everglades, photoreception related activity patterns 36 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 4: in South Florida buffinids, as well as the prey detection 37 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 4: and feeding mechanics of aquatic pipid frogs. Mark is also 38 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:25,840 Speaker 4: a professional scientific illustrator and is published in textbooks as 39 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:30,440 Speaker 4: well as the Journal Science Nature, Journal of experimental biology, zoology, 40 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 4: American zoologist, and many others. Originally, Mark's academic interests were 41 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:39,080 Speaker 4: broadly based on the form, function, and evolution of amphibians, 42 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:44,040 Speaker 4: with particular interest in the biomechanics of feeding, prey, detection, capture, 43 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 4: and transport. During the course of his studies, however, it 44 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:51,120 Speaker 4: became increasingly difficult to simply find amphibians at study sites, 45 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:53,800 Speaker 4: and as a result, he has joined fellow scientists and 46 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:59,240 Speaker 4: naturalists to address the global amphibian decline crisis. Before founding 47 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 4: the Amphibiani Foundation in twenty sixteen, he managed the amphibian 48 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:07,200 Speaker 4: conservation program at the Atlanta Botanical Gardens. Mark has now 49 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:10,640 Speaker 4: dedicated the majority of his time towards conservation efforts aimed 50 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 4: at reversing amphibian declines in the Southeast US and abroad, 51 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:19,079 Speaker 4: and teaching amphibian biology, ecology, and conservation at the Amphibian 52 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:22,240 Speaker 4: Foundation and Agnes Scott College Indicator, Georgia. 53 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 1: Now, before we jump into the interview proper, I do 54 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:27,600 Speaker 1: want to encourage you to visit their website. It is 55 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:32,160 Speaker 1: Amphibianfoundation dot org. There's tons of information there about all 56 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 1: the various programs that are involved in and you can 57 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:38,200 Speaker 1: follow them on multiple social media platforms as well. For instance, 58 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:42,920 Speaker 1: they are Amphibian Foundation on Instagram. All right, without further ado, 59 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:48,480 Speaker 1: let's jump right into the conversation. Thank you, Hi, Mark, 60 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:49,440 Speaker 1: welcome back to the show. 61 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 2: Thank you great to be here so. 62 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:55,040 Speaker 1: Longtime listeners will remember you and the work you do 63 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:57,800 Speaker 1: with the Amphibian Foundation from the past couple of times 64 00:03:57,800 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 1: you've been on the show. But for those who were 65 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 1: along for the ride back, then can you give us 66 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 1: a refresher on what the Amphibian Foundation is, what its 67 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 1: mission is, and how it came into being. 68 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:13,800 Speaker 5: Absolutely, you know, I can't even believe it. Next year 69 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:17,279 Speaker 5: it'll be ten years since we started the Amphibian Foundation 70 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:22,919 Speaker 5: here in Atlanta, primarily to address the imminent extinction of 71 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:28,240 Speaker 5: a particular species of salamander, the frosted flatwood salamander. But 72 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:31,279 Speaker 5: since then the program has grown quite a bit and 73 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:36,159 Speaker 5: we've added additional species. We fund these conservation actions through 74 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 5: our own educational programs, and so we've really built quite 75 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:44,159 Speaker 5: a community. It's really blown my mind. We have thirty 76 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:48,719 Speaker 5: staff members now in about sixty volunteers. It's just really 77 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:52,839 Speaker 5: mind blowing and just providing a place for people to 78 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 5: come and contribute to this wonderful group of animals that 79 00:04:56,800 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 5: we're losing. 80 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:01,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, back in eighteen, I believe we chatted a bit 81 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 1: about the plight of the frosted flatwood salamander. Can you 82 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:08,839 Speaker 1: remind us a little bit about what the frosties are 83 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 1: all about? And more importantly, how are they doing? How 84 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:15,720 Speaker 1: is the conservation effort going? Six years later? 85 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:19,720 Speaker 5: Thank you for that, because I usually describe it as 86 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 5: this species is quietly going extinct. Most people have never 87 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:27,000 Speaker 5: even heard of this species of frosted flatwood salamander, but 88 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 5: it really was once quite a common species throughout the 89 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:35,599 Speaker 5: entire southeast, and now it's gone from South Carolina and 90 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:40,280 Speaker 5: it's almost gone. In Georgia, there's one wetland left, and 91 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:43,719 Speaker 5: then in Florida there are a couple of clusters of puddles, 92 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:46,039 Speaker 5: and then that's it. I mean, this is a species 93 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 5: that we're considering at imminent risk of extinction. And it's 94 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:55,719 Speaker 5: very mysterious as well. Because it's underground for fifty weeks 95 00:05:55,720 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 5: of the year, it's very challenging to find and study. 96 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 5: And so we were in twenty sixteen given permission from 97 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:09,480 Speaker 5: the government to build a captive survival Assurance colony. That's 98 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:12,559 Speaker 5: when you know it's getting really bleak. When you feel 99 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:16,039 Speaker 5: like the best chance of thwarting extinction is to actually 100 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 5: remove animals from the wild and protect them a very 101 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:22,240 Speaker 5: bad sign. And that's where we were at with the frosties. 102 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:26,160 Speaker 5: You know, there's been little glimmers of hope. We were 103 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:29,559 Speaker 5: successfully able to breed that species for the first time, 104 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:33,720 Speaker 5: and so we have actual baby laborad frosted flatwood salamanders 105 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:36,840 Speaker 5: and once we did that, we were able to transfer 106 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:40,919 Speaker 5: baby salamanders to four other institutions, so we have partners 107 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:44,919 Speaker 5: now all working with this species. That's all very positive. 108 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:47,359 Speaker 5: We have yet to be able to breed them again 109 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 5: at any facility, so we're still working on that. And 110 00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:54,840 Speaker 5: in the wild, the species continues to crash, and that's 111 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:58,839 Speaker 5: the part that's really scary because it might be that 112 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:04,240 Speaker 5: this captive program is what saves the species, and that's 113 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:06,120 Speaker 5: that's really intense. 114 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 4: Do we know if the main drivers of the collapse 115 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 4: in the wild populations are due to habitat loss or 116 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:18,720 Speaker 4: to other factors or what we do? 117 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 5: I think they are a long leaf pine endemic species, 118 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:29,120 Speaker 5: and so that ecosystem was more or less removed, you know, 119 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:32,320 Speaker 5: I think there's like between three and seven percent left 120 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:37,920 Speaker 5: of that habitat. So really any species that is endemic 121 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 5: to that type of habitat is in trouble right now. 122 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:45,720 Speaker 5: And that includes like gopher tortoises and indigo snakes, you know, 123 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:49,280 Speaker 5: and there are a lot of the red cockaded woodpecker 124 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 5: gets a lot of attention, you know, And so the 125 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 5: frosties are abummed because of that. But there are more 126 00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:01,760 Speaker 5: nuanced things that are directly impacting the species because it's 127 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 5: a it's a salamander that is completely dependent on fire, 128 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:08,360 Speaker 5: which is really interesting to think about a salamander that 129 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:12,760 Speaker 5: can't live without fire and fire suppression. 130 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 2: And h and and. 131 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 5: In other ways that humans have altered fire regimes are 132 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:22,120 Speaker 5: still impacting the frosties, even on the lands where they're 133 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:27,120 Speaker 5: theoretically protected. They've they've evolved over millions of years to 134 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:30,320 Speaker 5: co occur with fire, so they know when to be 135 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:34,040 Speaker 5: out of the fire's way. And so when humans either 136 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 5: suppress the fire so the habitat changes, or burn when 137 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 5: it's more convenient for humans to burn, that's not when 138 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:42,440 Speaker 5: the frosties are. 139 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:43,880 Speaker 2: Below ground and out of harm's way. 140 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:47,080 Speaker 5: That's when they're up above ground and they literally get burned, 141 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:52,080 Speaker 5: and so that's a that's a big problem. So and 142 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:54,320 Speaker 5: and then you add in the fact that this is 143 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 5: a species that breeds in ephemeral wetlands, wetlands that hold 144 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:02,080 Speaker 5: water for sure periods of time, but only when the 145 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:05,440 Speaker 5: ponds are dry. They won't breed in a pond if 146 00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:07,320 Speaker 5: it's full. They need to lay their eggs in a 147 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:10,840 Speaker 5: dry pond and then the eggs wait for rains to 148 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:12,400 Speaker 5: come and fill the pond and. 149 00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:13,360 Speaker 2: Hatch the eggs. 150 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 5: That's worked for them for millions of years, but it's 151 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 5: not working for them in recent years because of shifting 152 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:23,600 Speaker 5: climates and drought, and the eggs are often just drying 153 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:26,959 Speaker 5: out and dying in the field. And so that's most 154 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:31,559 Speaker 5: of our program is from collecting these eggs from the 155 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:33,640 Speaker 5: field that are going to dry out and they get 156 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:36,760 Speaker 5: brought back to the lab. And the people that we're 157 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 5: collecting these eggs for us are our federal partners that 158 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 5: many of which are losing their jobs right now, are 159 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:46,280 Speaker 5: waiting to find out if they still have a job. 160 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:50,360 Speaker 5: And it's added this layer of chaos because it's we're 161 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 5: right in the middle of the breeding season, like right now, 162 00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:56,480 Speaker 5: you know, this is what we should be doing right now, 163 00:09:56,640 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 5: and so it's terrifying. 164 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:01,040 Speaker 4: Well Mark, we may have covered this one of the 165 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 4: previous times you were on the show, but it might 166 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:07,320 Speaker 4: be worth getting into it again. It's fascinating. You mentioned 167 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 4: how the salamanders rely on fire for their life cycle. 168 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 4: Could you give a little more detail on that. In 169 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:15,080 Speaker 4: what way do they rely on fire? How does that 170 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:16,160 Speaker 4: fit into what they do? 171 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:23,760 Speaker 5: Sure, the long leaf pine ecosystem is historically maintained by fire, 172 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:29,840 Speaker 5: and the animals that live in that environment have adapted 173 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 5: to it, you know, And so we're talking about burn 174 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 5: cycles of every one to three years. That's how frequently 175 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:41,200 Speaker 5: their area would burn, usually during the spring and summer. 176 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 5: Usually fires caused by lightning strike would ignite, and only 177 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:49,400 Speaker 5: the plants that can survive that much of a pummeling 178 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:54,800 Speaker 5: persist and that keeps them the habitat wide open. These are, 179 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:58,600 Speaker 5: you know, there are long leaf pine savannahs. They're called 180 00:10:58,640 --> 00:10:59,959 Speaker 5: the flat woods in some area. 181 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:04,280 Speaker 2: Is because the ponds are very shallow. 182 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:07,000 Speaker 5: You might not even notice them, if you know, especially 183 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 5: because the flatwoods breed in dry ponds, you might not 184 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:13,720 Speaker 5: even recognize that. A few inches of a depression somewhere 185 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:18,000 Speaker 5: are actually a really important wetland and it needs to burn. 186 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 5: The bottoms of the ponds need to burn out, otherwise 187 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:23,800 Speaker 5: the habitat changes. 188 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 2: If you suppress the fire, the. 189 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:29,679 Speaker 5: Long leaf pine will get outgrown by other trees, and 190 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:33,719 Speaker 5: other types of vegetation will eventually come in and replace it, 191 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:37,080 Speaker 5: and then it's no longer suitable for the salamanders. And 192 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 5: so that's the main struggle with them. 193 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:43,040 Speaker 1: And then in captivity is the sort of the main 194 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:45,600 Speaker 1: challenges to getting them to breed? Do they seem to do? 195 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:47,720 Speaker 1: These challenges seem to relate to just making sure that 196 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 1: the environmental conditions are just right that they'll want to 197 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 1: breed with each other. 198 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:57,960 Speaker 5: Yeah, it is a mystery. First, we were just trying 199 00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:00,319 Speaker 5: to figure out how to keep these things alive because 200 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:03,160 Speaker 5: that had never been done before, and they didn't come 201 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:06,960 Speaker 5: with an instruction manual of any any kind. And so 202 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 5: we started to notice things that we were interpreting as 203 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 5: interest in breeding behavior, and so we tried putting them 204 00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 5: together in different assortments and different arrangements and tried to 205 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:25,480 Speaker 5: queue in on what we thought was, you know, giving 206 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:29,360 Speaker 5: them the signals. And so we got it right a 207 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:32,120 Speaker 5: couple of years ago, but we haven't been able to 208 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:36,920 Speaker 5: recreate that magic this year. Because we had groups set 209 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:41,320 Speaker 5: up in multiple institutions with cameras, we were able to 210 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 5: observe some of the breeding behaviors and they were clearly communicating. 211 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 5: You know, it really is surprising that they didn't breed 212 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:53,800 Speaker 5: this year. But I think basically that we are having 213 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:55,960 Speaker 5: a lot of There are a lot of young animals, 214 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:58,720 Speaker 5: and probably next year will be even more likely to 215 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:02,720 Speaker 5: have success. But we we're learning very quickly having so 216 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:07,080 Speaker 5: many amazing partners working on this same problem together. When 217 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:11,439 Speaker 5: we were first looking to set up these redundancies, we 218 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:14,400 Speaker 5: reached out to, you know, anyone we thought might be 219 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:19,080 Speaker 5: interested in. Some of these amazing, world class zoos got involved, 220 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:21,680 Speaker 5: so we actually shipped animals. 221 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:22,040 Speaker 2: Out to Omaha. 222 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 5: So Omaha's Henry Dorley Zoo have some frosted flatwood salamanders 223 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:30,600 Speaker 5: in North Carolina Zoo as well, and then the Brevard 224 00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:35,680 Speaker 5: Zoo in Florida, and then an actual federal fish archery, 225 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:39,680 Speaker 5: the Warm Springs National Fish Archery has some frosted flatwood 226 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:44,440 Speaker 5: salamanders as well, and so we're still looking to expand 227 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:48,360 Speaker 5: into other institutions as well. So if there are institutions 228 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:51,320 Speaker 5: out there that might have the capacity to help set 229 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:53,560 Speaker 5: up a colony of these guys, please reach out. 230 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:58,120 Speaker 1: To me, because again, right now, captive breeding seems to 231 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:00,840 Speaker 1: be like the main hope for these for the species 232 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:01,559 Speaker 1: moving forward. 233 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:05,440 Speaker 5: Right it's really hard to predict. You know, if you 234 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:07,439 Speaker 5: would have asked me that question a month ago or 235 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:09,720 Speaker 5: two months ago, I would have given you a different 236 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:14,280 Speaker 5: answer than right now. But when I'm talking to our partners, 237 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:16,400 Speaker 5: the ones that I can still get on the phone, 238 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 5: you know, they're saying, we know the gun is to 239 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 5: our head, we're waiting for someone to pull the trigger. 240 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:24,040 Speaker 2: And they don't really know if they're going to have 241 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:24,600 Speaker 2: a job. 242 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:27,960 Speaker 5: And they're not optimistic that the Endangered Species Act is 243 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:31,560 Speaker 5: going to remain intact either, And so there's a lot 244 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:35,320 Speaker 5: that it's changing very fundamentally right now in ways that 245 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:36,320 Speaker 5: are scaring me. 246 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:39,720 Speaker 4: Well, Mark, to stick with the scary stuff for the moment. 247 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 4: We have been talking specifically about the frosted flatwood salamander, 248 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:48,560 Speaker 4: but I was also looking at some research published just 249 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:51,000 Speaker 4: the past couple of years in Nature before we came 250 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:54,000 Speaker 4: in to talk today. It was based on assessments from 251 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:59,440 Speaker 4: a number of conservation groups, saying that currently amphibians are 252 00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:03,720 Speaker 4: the most threatened class of all the world's vertebrates. Do 253 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 4: we know what are the main causes for this or 254 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 4: what do we think are the most likely causes? 255 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:11,040 Speaker 2: Absolutely? Absolutely, thank you for that. 256 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:16,359 Speaker 5: Yeah, there are more amphibians than mammals and birds combined 257 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:17,960 Speaker 5: that are threatened right now. 258 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:19,400 Speaker 2: You know, it's just and it's. 259 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 5: It's the same things that are impacting other types of 260 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 5: wild wildlife. It's just that with amphibians it's times a thousand, 261 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 5: you know, because it's it's really comes down to their skin. 262 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:36,160 Speaker 5: And for example, you'll never see a frog drink, you won't. 263 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:39,960 Speaker 5: They just absorb everything right through their skin, and that 264 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 5: includes anything that we have put into the environment as 265 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 5: well that also gets absorbed into the frog's skin. 266 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:46,720 Speaker 2: You know. 267 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:51,440 Speaker 5: So like when I was an undergrad, we were seeing 268 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 5: frogs with birth defects, being being born with extra limbs 269 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:58,520 Speaker 5: or not enough limbs, you know, in areas where you 270 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 5: would normally expect amphibians to be. Okay, that was in 271 00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:06,320 Speaker 5: the nineties and it's it's really only gotten worse since then. 272 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:12,240 Speaker 5: I mean, you'll hear you'll hear that amphibians sometimes described 273 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 5: as the canary in the coal mine, you know what 274 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:18,280 Speaker 5: I mean, And so they if that's true, then amphibians 275 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 5: are some type of warning for humans. Well, they've been 276 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:25,400 Speaker 5: warning us for decades, you know, deformities, die offs, massive 277 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:30,960 Speaker 5: die offs. It's just like it's really hard to imagine 278 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:33,480 Speaker 5: how much more of a warning the amphibians could be 279 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 5: giving us. 280 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:35,840 Speaker 2: You know, like. 281 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:39,920 Speaker 5: The the tap order you know, would kill all of 282 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 5: the amphibians. Here at the Amphibian Foundation, we have to 283 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:45,960 Speaker 5: filter it so significantly and put it through all these 284 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 5: processes just to make it safe. 285 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:50,480 Speaker 2: And that's the stuff that we like bathe bathe in 286 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 2: all the time, ticket shower. It's lethal to amphibians, you know. 287 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:58,160 Speaker 5: It's just it's it's it's hard to think that that 288 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:02,000 Speaker 5: we're not connected to this somehow, but it's like their 289 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:04,879 Speaker 5: amphibians are so sensitive due to that, you know, and 290 00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:09,440 Speaker 5: diseases that we can move around and invertently can really 291 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:14,239 Speaker 5: be devastating because amphibian skin is so sensitive about and 292 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:18,280 Speaker 5: it doesn't handle these types of perturbations very well, whether 293 00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:23,879 Speaker 5: that's pollution or agricultural chemicals, pharmaceuticals. You know that you 294 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:25,440 Speaker 5: name it, it's impacting them. 295 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:28,640 Speaker 4: I think I was also reading that there's some thinking 296 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:34,120 Speaker 4: that amphibians are especially vulnerable to warm it to increasing temperatures, 297 00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:36,680 Speaker 4: maybe more so than other classes of vertebrates are. 298 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:37,920 Speaker 2: Yeah. 299 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:40,840 Speaker 5: Absolutely, I mean they're so intimately tied to the water. 300 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:44,199 Speaker 5: Going back to the flatwood salamander, how risky is it 301 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:48,879 Speaker 5: to breed in a dry pond? That's their strategy, you know, 302 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:52,720 Speaker 5: but it's over millions of years. You know, they obviously 303 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:55,120 Speaker 5: wouldn't always work out for them, but more often than 304 00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:57,159 Speaker 5: it wouldn't, it would work out. And now that that 305 00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:01,560 Speaker 5: is shifting and the ponds are holding water at different 306 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:05,399 Speaker 5: times of the year than they have historically, that's very different. 307 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:09,639 Speaker 5: That's not something that amphibians can catch up to quickly enough, 308 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:14,119 Speaker 5: so they're very sensitive to even these small shifts in 309 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:15,200 Speaker 5: the climate. 310 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:28,920 Speaker 1: Now we've been talking about the environmental challenges for amphibians, 311 00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:33,879 Speaker 1: and also some of these other top down governmental and 312 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:38,400 Speaker 1: political challenges as well on the other end of the spectrum. 313 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 1: You know, this brings to mind education and the public awareness, 314 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:45,359 Speaker 1: and I know another huge part of the Amphibian Foundation's 315 00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:49,520 Speaker 1: mission is educational, both in terms of teaching future herpetologists 316 00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:55,280 Speaker 1: and raising awareness of critical species. Have you observed an 317 00:18:55,359 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 1: uptick in the public's enthusiasm for herbs in generals and 318 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:01,720 Speaker 1: salamanders in particular. 319 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:05,920 Speaker 5: Oh, that's a great question, and I think I think 320 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:09,400 Speaker 5: it's kind of mixed, because I think the Internet probably 321 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:13,240 Speaker 5: has been really good for amphibians and reptiles, but then 322 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:16,360 Speaker 5: you'll you also see a lot of people doing horrible 323 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:19,879 Speaker 5: things to them, you know, So it's like it's a 324 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:22,840 Speaker 5: double edged sword, I guess, you know, so it's really 325 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:26,639 Speaker 5: made up markets for some pretty horrible things. But ultimately, 326 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:30,080 Speaker 5: I do think that there are there's more awareness of 327 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:33,240 Speaker 5: what's happening, and it certainly is easier for us to 328 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:36,760 Speaker 5: get our message out to the community. 329 00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:40,080 Speaker 1: I don't want to discuss every all the horrible details necessarily, 330 00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:43,200 Speaker 1: but when you when you mention horrible things, you're talking 331 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:48,119 Speaker 1: about things involving say, captive salamanders or herbs or encounters 332 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:49,879 Speaker 1: with wild species. 333 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:53,800 Speaker 5: At that time, I was talking about encounters with wild species, 334 00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 5: you know, and and the things that people do to 335 00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:01,520 Speaker 5: them in the wild. Yeah, but a gig go either way. 336 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:06,719 Speaker 5: There's a study that just got shared with me. Someone 337 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:09,800 Speaker 5: was measuring the social media response This was a group 338 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:12,760 Speaker 5: out of Ireland, I believe it could have been Scotland 339 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:17,360 Speaker 5: about the social media impact on certain extinctions, and they 340 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:20,879 Speaker 5: used the RABS fringe limb tree frog that went extinct 341 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 5: here in Atlanta as an example of the comparing because 342 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:31,399 Speaker 5: unfortunately there are several species that have gone extinct, and 343 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:35,840 Speaker 5: so it was measuring the impact and that when Toughie 344 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:40,439 Speaker 5: went extinct in Atlanta in twenty sixteen, that was a 345 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:43,639 Speaker 5: movement that was talked about for longer periods of time, 346 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:48,240 Speaker 5: maybe by not as many people as some of these 347 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:53,000 Speaker 5: other things, but it had a duration. It really spoke 348 00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:56,520 Speaker 5: to a certain amount of people, very very profoundly, and 349 00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:58,959 Speaker 5: so that gave me a little bit of hope too 350 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:03,479 Speaker 5: as far as the awareness, you know, because having worked 351 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:07,600 Speaker 5: through an actual extinction once already, I just know that 352 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:11,840 Speaker 5: that feeling of such profound loss that you know, it 353 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:15,200 Speaker 5: really drives a lot of the work that we're currently 354 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:19,280 Speaker 5: still doing where we're teetering right on the edge here 355 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:21,400 Speaker 5: of some really bleak stuff. 356 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:23,000 Speaker 2: Yeah. 357 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:29,159 Speaker 1: Now, in terms of like social media awareness of various species, 358 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 1: I'm to understand that since we last spoke, acxle Lottels 359 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:36,760 Speaker 1: were introduced into the popular Mindcraft video game, and that 360 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:43,600 Speaker 1: this has helped to fuel greater popularity for actual lottels. 361 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:49,160 Speaker 1: I'm curious if the amphibian and herpetology world have observed, 362 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:53,440 Speaker 1: like any impact from their rising popularity, Like people find 363 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:55,719 Speaker 1: them cute, they're like stuffed animals off them, and I 364 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:58,680 Speaker 1: guess maybe more people are trying to obtain them as pets. 365 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:02,280 Speaker 1: Does this have just kind of a neutral impact or 366 00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:04,760 Speaker 1: is it a positive or negative effect? 367 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:08,080 Speaker 5: Do you think it's really hard to measure, especially since 368 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:11,439 Speaker 5: that species is extinct in the wild. You know, like 369 00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:14,680 Speaker 5: it's doing really well in the pet trade and in captivity, 370 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:19,760 Speaker 5: But I'm not I'm curious how many of the enthusiasts 371 00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:22,800 Speaker 5: are also aware of how bad it is for that 372 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:26,280 Speaker 5: species in the in the wild and and we call 373 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:30,200 Speaker 5: them Acxi lottels here, but in there and where they live, 374 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:33,240 Speaker 5: there are more than one species of our ax A 375 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:38,240 Speaker 5: lottel or big big guild neotenic salamanders, and those those 376 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:40,320 Speaker 5: species are still there, but a lot of them are 377 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:44,080 Speaker 5: in big trouble. So I would personally like to see 378 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:47,280 Speaker 5: a lot of this attention going towards those types of 379 00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:54,920 Speaker 5: awareness projects or maybe even fundraising. But Ultimately, I would 380 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:57,640 Speaker 5: call it a net neutral because I haven't seen any 381 00:22:57,720 --> 00:22:58,720 Speaker 5: evidence of that. 382 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:02,439 Speaker 1: The ax a lot as you mentioned being extinct in 383 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:06,240 Speaker 1: the wild. I was recently listening to a podcast interview 384 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:10,280 Speaker 1: on the podcast Ologies with an acce lottle scientist, and 385 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:14,439 Speaker 1: they had mentioned that most of the ax lottels that 386 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:18,720 Speaker 1: we have in the world in captivity are actually more 387 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 1: French than Mexican. At this point, there's like, are they're 388 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:26,760 Speaker 1: all descended from a population that was taken out of 389 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:29,720 Speaker 1: Mexico by a French scientist many, many years ago. 390 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:33,520 Speaker 5: Wow, this is news to me. Fascinating. Okay, so they're 391 00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:37,280 Speaker 5: more French than Mexican. I know that there's a bunch 392 00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 5: that have also been mixed with other Ambistoma species and 393 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:46,040 Speaker 5: that they present as axe lottels, But they might suddenly metamorphose, 394 00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:48,720 Speaker 5: which would be a really good clue that that's not 395 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:52,840 Speaker 5: actually an accele lottl if it metamorphosed, because the axcelettles can't. 396 00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:57,640 Speaker 1: Now, given that axe lottels seem to be relatively successful 397 00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:03,240 Speaker 1: in captivity, does this pose a hurdle to educating folks 398 00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:06,680 Speaker 1: about like the dangers and the challenges involved with these 399 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:09,840 Speaker 1: other species we've been talking about, you know, maybe a 400 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:11,840 Speaker 1: tendency to think, oh well, if you can raise ax 401 00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:14,480 Speaker 1: lottels in captivity. I can see when when I go, 402 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:16,639 Speaker 1: you know, to this facility in town and then I 403 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:18,720 Speaker 1: see them on the internet. They must be doing fine. 404 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:21,040 Speaker 1: We must have we must have it figured out. 405 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:24,760 Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, that would be a bad message to send. 406 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:28,119 Speaker 5: I think it's really the whole thing is really challenging, 407 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:31,639 Speaker 5: and we we try to like stay away from the 408 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:36,800 Speaker 5: pet trade angle and most things, and it's it's pretty discouraging, 409 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:39,760 Speaker 5: you know, and I would love to see it move 410 00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:43,840 Speaker 5: towards more type sustainable types of things. We were on 411 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:46,120 Speaker 5: a nature preserve in Atlanta and we still we get 412 00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:49,720 Speaker 5: people's pets here all the time. They just release their 413 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:53,800 Speaker 5: pets on the nature preserve. Kind of it's really sad. 414 00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:56,479 Speaker 5: And you know, we're talking about like turtles mostly, you know, 415 00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 5: and that's not good for the native turtles that are 416 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:02,480 Speaker 5: just trying to make a living, you know. And so 417 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:05,399 Speaker 5: I don't know, I know that's not totally related, but 418 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:08,399 Speaker 5: it's it's kind of all in the same ball of wax. 419 00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:11,520 Speaker 1: Now, one of your outreach programs over the years has 420 00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:14,920 Speaker 1: been the biology of the Despised. I know we talked 421 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:17,320 Speaker 1: about this, and I think your last appearance on the 422 00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 1: podcast a lot of this involving snakes, venomous snakes, but 423 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:25,560 Speaker 1: also snakes that are mistaken for venomous snakes, as well 424 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:27,160 Speaker 1: as things like snapping turtles. 425 00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:32,240 Speaker 5: Yes, yeah, did you you want me to just riff 426 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:33,240 Speaker 5: on that because I can't? 427 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:36,679 Speaker 2: Yeah? Oh yeah, you're going yeah, because you know that. 428 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:39,520 Speaker 5: That is something that I remember talking with you guys 429 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:42,479 Speaker 5: about and I really appreciated that, and it's something that 430 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:46,639 Speaker 5: we've continued to expand upon. So this this weekend is 431 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,919 Speaker 5: our annual Biology of the Despised event at the Atlanta 432 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:53,520 Speaker 5: Science Festival, and so this this year we're doing cotton mouths. 433 00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:57,880 Speaker 5: So it's not a native Atlanta snake, but they're very 434 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:01,440 Speaker 5: hated here in Atlanta, even though they don't live here, 435 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:07,200 Speaker 5: and so we're highlighting them. But we're also building our 436 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:11,600 Speaker 5: first course that's going to go beyond the amphibian and 437 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 5: reptile tax. We're going to go out and it's just 438 00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:17,240 Speaker 5: going to be a full Biology of the Despised and 439 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:21,840 Speaker 5: highlighting invertebrates. You know, there's lots of despised stuff we've 440 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 5: been reaching casting a net far and wide about that. 441 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:28,480 Speaker 5: Maybe I'll reach out to you guys too to see 442 00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:32,120 Speaker 5: if you have any suggestions for how we could expand 443 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 5: because we're just trying to cast the widest net possible 444 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:39,320 Speaker 5: and really give people an opportunity to showcase the species 445 00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:42,760 Speaker 5: that they work with that are also despised and misunderstood 446 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:46,160 Speaker 5: and maligned. And you know, it's just all stemming from 447 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:50,840 Speaker 5: the fact that my field her petology was erected by 448 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:55,120 Speaker 5: a Swedish botanist just because he hated those groups. That's 449 00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:58,600 Speaker 5: what amphibians and reptiles have in common, is that that 450 00:26:58,760 --> 00:26:59,880 Speaker 5: dude hated them. 451 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:02,400 Speaker 2: That's the only reason they're together. 452 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:05,320 Speaker 5: It's just really kind of like a badge of honor 453 00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:09,399 Speaker 5: thing he called them. These are the foul and loathsome creatures, 454 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:15,119 Speaker 5: and so that's crazy, you know, it's really nuts, because 455 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:18,040 Speaker 5: you know, amphibians and fish are more closely aligned. You 456 00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:20,760 Speaker 5: might put reptiles and birds together, who knows, you know, 457 00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:24,800 Speaker 5: But it's just really funny that that field has remained 458 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:26,840 Speaker 5: for two three hundred years already. 459 00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's it's always interesting to look at 460 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:35,560 Speaker 1: how media, particularly horror movies, depicts these various creatures you know. Yeah, 461 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:39,199 Speaker 1: the creatures that are despised or are maligned like they're 462 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:42,040 Speaker 1: often showing up as a centralized threat in some sort 463 00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:44,240 Speaker 1: of horror film, be it a shark or certainly, we've 464 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 1: seen so many killer snake movies over the years. We 465 00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:50,560 Speaker 1: didn't have some killer frog movies there. But I was 466 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:52,720 Speaker 1: just realizing the other day it was like, I don't 467 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 1: think I've ever seen a killer salamander movie. Oh yeah, 468 00:27:57,840 --> 00:27:59,600 Speaker 1: I had to do some digging around. It looks I 469 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:01,880 Speaker 1: was not where. There's something came out in twenty twenty 470 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:05,440 Speaker 1: three called The Tank that features a giant salamander live 471 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:10,320 Speaker 1: creature like lives in somebody's basement, meets cops. I was reading, 472 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,200 Speaker 1: or you know, eats people that you know that wander 473 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 1: into the house. 474 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:17,000 Speaker 5: They're blowing my mind right now. I try to stay 475 00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:18,639 Speaker 5: up on these things. That's great. 476 00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:22,320 Speaker 1: And then the recent Fallout vouching for it or I'm 477 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:24,720 Speaker 1: not vouching for it. I have not seen it. The 478 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 1: recent Fallout television series is good. I can vouch for that, 479 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:31,000 Speaker 1: and it does have a big sylum mat salamander creature 480 00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:35,240 Speaker 1: like a mutated salamander, oh tries to eat people. But 481 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:38,560 Speaker 1: aside from those, you know, I even I looked at 482 00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:42,600 Speaker 1: the California Herp's website, which has a great like database 483 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:47,120 Speaker 1: of mostly older films, and like at any point a 484 00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:49,600 Speaker 1: herb shows up being a lizard, a snake, or what 485 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:51,960 Speaker 1: have you, And they have a page about salamanders, and 486 00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:54,600 Speaker 1: most of the instances where a salamander pops up in 487 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:58,000 Speaker 1: a film, it seems to have the role of being 488 00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:00,800 Speaker 1: sort of a mystical and calendar or some sort of 489 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:05,840 Speaker 1: like almost like a supernatural communication or dream imagery. And 490 00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:10,320 Speaker 1: I wonder what that says about our relationship thus far 491 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:12,959 Speaker 1: with salamanders. You know, it's like almost like seeing a 492 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:15,680 Speaker 1: fairy or a ghost. 493 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:20,400 Speaker 5: Well, that's a great point, you're it's making me think 494 00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:23,640 Speaker 5: of this article I wrote read about this. I think 495 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:27,640 Speaker 5: it was like some Croatian brandy that's made with the 496 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:32,760 Speaker 5: salamander venom that I can it's way too powerful of 497 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:33,880 Speaker 5: an aphrodisiac. 498 00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:36,760 Speaker 2: So according to what I was reading, like you would. 499 00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:38,760 Speaker 5: Just read with whatever was in the room with you 500 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:41,080 Speaker 5: at the point, if you had any whether that be 501 00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:44,120 Speaker 5: a chair or a goat, I don't know. You know, 502 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:47,400 Speaker 5: it's just really funny because like you think of that 503 00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:50,720 Speaker 5: a lot. It's like eye of newt or whatever or 504 00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:53,120 Speaker 5: some of these really, I mean, newts have some of 505 00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:57,320 Speaker 5: the most toxic compounds known to science in them, and 506 00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:01,480 Speaker 5: some people do recreationally do some newt, you know, or 507 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:05,600 Speaker 5: toads or something like that. But it's it's interesting because 508 00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:08,400 Speaker 5: I agree that, like when you think about it, that 509 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:12,800 Speaker 5: there's more mysteriousness there with the salamanders than maybe with 510 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:13,400 Speaker 5: the frogs. 511 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,960 Speaker 1: Now coming back a little bit to conservation topics with 512 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:30,560 Speaker 1: with with salamanders and newts and so forth, I mean, 513 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:33,440 Speaker 1: there are also a lot of research angles that go 514 00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:36,640 Speaker 1: beyond just mere merely preserving the species. Like I'm und 515 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:39,880 Speaker 1: understand that act A models feature into a number of 516 00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:45,200 Speaker 1: different scientific research programs with some huge potentials for human 517 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:47,920 Speaker 1: health down the road. I mean, I guess it's it's 518 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:52,040 Speaker 1: always the case with with with any species that we 519 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:54,520 Speaker 1: we losing them is not only like a loss for 520 00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:58,240 Speaker 1: the planet, it is like selfishly potentially a huge loss 521 00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:01,480 Speaker 1: for us, because who knows what secrets could be unlocked 522 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:02,280 Speaker 1: with them. 523 00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:05,840 Speaker 5: Yeah, that's a great that's an excellent point, and a 524 00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:10,720 Speaker 5: lot of the talks that I give, especially if I'm 525 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:12,880 Speaker 5: not preaching to the choir. I do a lot of 526 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:16,360 Speaker 5: audiences that are already sold on amphibians, but when I'm 527 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:18,960 Speaker 5: reaching out to a new audience, you know, trying to 528 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:22,600 Speaker 5: make a case for amphibians, and so I always start 529 00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 5: with bugs. They eat tons of bugs, That's what they're 530 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:28,680 Speaker 5: meant to do, you know. They some of them specialize 531 00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:31,720 Speaker 5: in mosquitoes. And then I run through all the reasons 532 00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:35,120 Speaker 5: why you should think amphibians are worth saving. And then 533 00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:38,560 Speaker 5: the last argument I make is the pharmaceutical value, or 534 00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:41,200 Speaker 5: the research value, or the impact on human health. And 535 00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:44,640 Speaker 5: there are so many compounds in the amphibian skin that 536 00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:50,160 Speaker 5: have great significant pharmaceutical value, blocking viral transmission with one 537 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:55,240 Speaker 5: hundred percent effectiveness, relieving pain more effectively than morphine without 538 00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:58,280 Speaker 5: any addiction consequences. There's a lot of stuff in there. 539 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:01,640 Speaker 5: And then at least two of the things I just 540 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:05,400 Speaker 5: mentioned are from critically endangered species that we know from 541 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:09,160 Speaker 5: compounds in their skin, and so a lot of it's 542 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 5: easy to think that we are losing species before we've 543 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:14,959 Speaker 5: had a chance to even look at that. 544 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:19,200 Speaker 1: Now, for any young or not so young people out there, 545 00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:24,480 Speaker 1: they're interested in amphibians and herpetology in general, what steps 546 00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:27,280 Speaker 1: could they or should they be taking if they're interested 547 00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:28,600 Speaker 1: in seriously pursuing it. 548 00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:34,480 Speaker 5: We've really really focused a lot on providing an entry 549 00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:38,880 Speaker 5: way for people into the field, you know, and we're 550 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:42,040 Speaker 5: based in Atlanta, so for folks that are in the area, 551 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:44,920 Speaker 5: it might be a little easier because we have so 552 00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:48,640 Speaker 5: many volunteer opportunities for people that can afford to volunteer. 553 00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:52,600 Speaker 5: You know, it's it's proven to be a stepping stone 554 00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:55,959 Speaker 5: too well maybe if you wanted to go to school 555 00:32:56,040 --> 00:33:00,120 Speaker 5: for it or get some training in some capacities like that. 556 00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:03,760 Speaker 5: Part of this job has been extremely rewarding. 557 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:04,600 Speaker 2: Uh. 558 00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 5: And then we've been able to bring that to the 559 00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:12,840 Speaker 5: online community as well. Through our educational programs. We offered 560 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:17,400 Speaker 5: what was meaningless several years ago, a certificate and master 561 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:20,480 Speaker 5: you're a master herpetologist at that point if you complete 562 00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:24,320 Speaker 5: the course successfully. But now it's not meaningless. Now it 563 00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:27,640 Speaker 5: actually has helped people to get into graduate school, to 564 00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:30,640 Speaker 5: help people to get jobs at zoos and at agencies, 565 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:34,120 Speaker 5: you know. So then that feels really good to see 566 00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:37,560 Speaker 5: that we're providing a way a mechanism because we really 567 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:40,560 Speaker 5: need all hands on deck. There's there's plenty of work 568 00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:43,480 Speaker 5: to be done. We need as many people as possible 569 00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:46,560 Speaker 5: jazzed about these things and wanting to help, and so 570 00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:48,640 Speaker 5: just being able to contribute to that in any way 571 00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:51,240 Speaker 5: has been really I'm really grateful for that opportunity. 572 00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:54,320 Speaker 1: And you have the Junior Master of Herpetology program as well. 573 00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:57,680 Speaker 1: My child is a graduate of that program. 574 00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:00,760 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, and it's really really great. 575 00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:04,840 Speaker 5: And so you know a lot of people, young young 576 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:07,600 Speaker 5: learners want to take our adult classes, and we don't 577 00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:10,720 Speaker 5: let them unless they've already been certified as a Junior 578 00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:15,080 Speaker 5: Master herpetologist and already proven themselves. That's the only way 579 00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:18,960 Speaker 5: into those programs. And it's just been really great to 580 00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:20,680 Speaker 5: watch this community grow. 581 00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:22,680 Speaker 1: Now, how about the how about the rest of the 582 00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:25,600 Speaker 1: folks out there? Like what can the average person do 583 00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:28,880 Speaker 1: to help out amphibians and other herbs, say in their 584 00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:30,520 Speaker 1: backyard in their local area. 585 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:34,759 Speaker 5: I love getting these types of questions, and so just 586 00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:37,920 Speaker 5: uh so I don't forget. Let me just mention the 587 00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:43,719 Speaker 5: url backyard dot frogs need our help dot org and 588 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:46,080 Speaker 5: that is a link to our frog blog. But it 589 00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:49,719 Speaker 5: queues up just the articles I've collected over the years 590 00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:53,160 Speaker 5: were written about how to make your yard more Amphibian friendly. 591 00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:55,880 Speaker 5: There's several articles in there about how to build a 592 00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:59,520 Speaker 5: wetland if you're interested, but there's lots of different things. 593 00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:01,600 Speaker 2: Oh, what to do if you get frogs. 594 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:05,560 Speaker 5: In your pool, you know, some strong arguments for leaving 595 00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:07,720 Speaker 5: leaf litter in certain areas of your yard. 596 00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:09,080 Speaker 2: You know that kind of stuff. 597 00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:11,359 Speaker 5: But it really goes through and I've been collecting that 598 00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:13,399 Speaker 5: stuff for like ten or fifteen years by now. 599 00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:17,120 Speaker 1: Awesome. Right now, we've already mentioned the Atlanta Science Festival, 600 00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:20,719 Speaker 1: which when this episode comes out, that will be ongoing. 601 00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:23,160 Speaker 1: So if you are in the Atlanta area or planned 602 00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:25,720 Speaker 1: to be in the Atlanta area during its a couple 603 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:28,960 Speaker 1: of weeks run, you know, look that up. But what 604 00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:32,120 Speaker 1: else is on the horizon for the Amphibian Foundation here? 605 00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:34,440 Speaker 2: Thank you? Yeah, we like. 606 00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:38,239 Speaker 5: The Atlanta Science Festival is a big deal for us. 607 00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:43,280 Speaker 5: We do about usually do four events each Science Festival, 608 00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:45,880 Speaker 5: and the last day of the festival is the Expo 609 00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:48,600 Speaker 5: in Piedmont Park, and we'll be there so people can 610 00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:52,239 Speaker 5: come and see us if they want. And then you know, 611 00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:55,799 Speaker 5: we're going to be launching into our next semester of 612 00:35:56,719 --> 00:36:00,239 Speaker 5: our Conservation Research Bridge program, so that's our gap year 613 00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:02,600 Speaker 5: program where we have students come from all over the 614 00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:05,920 Speaker 5: country to work hands on you know, like I mentioned, 615 00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:08,759 Speaker 5: this is an all hands on deck situation. But what 616 00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:12,279 Speaker 5: we do is very unique and so it really resonates 617 00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:15,600 Speaker 5: very strongly with a small number of people around the 618 00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:19,000 Speaker 5: country who come and spend one to three semesters. Like 619 00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:21,640 Speaker 5: we just get right into the swamps. So it's really 620 00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:26,120 Speaker 5: ideal for certain people, and so that's going to get 621 00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:30,120 Speaker 5: us occupied right right now. We're also surveying for gopher 622 00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:34,000 Speaker 5: frog eggs, which is George's rarest frog, and so they 623 00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:37,000 Speaker 5: should be breeding any moment now. As soon as we 624 00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:39,600 Speaker 5: can detect some eggs, we'll bring them back to head 625 00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:42,839 Speaker 5: start them here at the Amphibian Foundation, which means get 626 00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:46,400 Speaker 5: them through their sensitive larval stage, and then we release 627 00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:50,360 Speaker 5: baby gopher frogs. That's usually in the middle of the summer. 628 00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:52,520 Speaker 5: We're releasing baby gopher frogs. 629 00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:57,279 Speaker 2: Nice, it's good stuff. If you like that kind of thing. 630 00:36:57,640 --> 00:36:58,200 Speaker 2: It's great. 631 00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:02,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, sounds like a hoot. 632 00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:05,040 Speaker 2: It is. It is a hoot. 633 00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:07,560 Speaker 5: Guys are welcome to come along for a frog release 634 00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:08,160 Speaker 5: if you'd like. 635 00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:12,799 Speaker 1: All right, Mark, Well, thanks for coming on the show 636 00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:13,680 Speaker 1: and chatting with us. 637 00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:16,160 Speaker 5: Oh, thank you. It was my pleasure to be here. 638 00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:18,720 Speaker 5: Thanks guys, Thank. 639 00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:22,200 Speaker 4: You all right. Well, thanks again to Mark Mandika for 640 00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:24,560 Speaker 4: taking time to chat with us here on Stuff to 641 00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:27,360 Speaker 4: Blow Your Mind. If you want to learn more about 642 00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:31,759 Speaker 4: the Amphibian Foundation, subscribe to the Amphibian Foundation newsletter, or 643 00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:34,160 Speaker 4: learn about ways to help them out, such as donation 644 00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:38,359 Speaker 4: or volunteering, go to Amphibianfoundation dot org. 645 00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:41,440 Speaker 1: Just a reminder that Stuff to Blow Your Mind is 646 00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:45,360 Speaker 1: primarily a science and culture podcast, with core episodes on 647 00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:48,200 Speaker 1: Tuesdays and Thursdays. In the Stuff to Blow Your Mind 648 00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:51,920 Speaker 1: podcast feed. On Wednesdays we have a short form episode, 649 00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:54,759 Speaker 1: and on Fridays we set aside most serious concerns to 650 00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:58,600 Speaker 1: just talk about a weird film on Weird House Cinema. 651 00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:02,279 Speaker 1: Now you can follow our weird Cinema activities on letterboxed. 652 00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:04,799 Speaker 1: Our user name there is weird House. If you want 653 00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:07,880 Speaker 1: to follow Stuff to Blow your Mind proper well, there 654 00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:10,280 Speaker 1: are several different ways to do that on social media, 655 00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:14,520 Speaker 1: but we are also on Instagram STBYM podcast and that's 656 00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:16,520 Speaker 1: a great place to follow us and keep up with 657 00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:19,520 Speaker 1: what we are up to. Thanks as always to the 658 00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:22,799 Speaker 1: excellent JJ Possway for producing the show. And if you 659 00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:24,680 Speaker 1: want to reach out to us, if you want to 660 00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:27,520 Speaker 1: suggest topics for the future, if you want to suggest 661 00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:30,879 Speaker 1: interview guests, and so forth, you can reach us via 662 00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:41,480 Speaker 1: email at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. 663 00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:45,160 Speaker 3: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 664 00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:48,040 Speaker 3: more podcasts from My Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 665 00:38:48,200 --> 00:39:01,680 Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows. 666 00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:02,840 Speaker 1: Ratt