Speaker 1: Pushkin Earthreine Fire have a wonderful new documentary out now
Speaker 1: on HBO and just before premiered at Tribeca and New York.
Speaker 1: The three OG's of the group, vocalist Philip Bailey, singer
Speaker 1: percussionist Ralph Johnson, and bass player Verdin White, stop by
Speaker 1: a broken record for a chat. As a music podcaster,
Speaker 1: I always had that famous old saying swirling around my
Speaker 1: head that talking about music is like dancing about architecture,
Speaker 1: and none more so than during this particular conversation. I mean,
Speaker 1: Earthwreine Fire is a music that, in all my experience
Speaker 1: of it is just impossible to intellectualize. It exists in us,
Speaker 1: and likely in them too, on a spiritual level and
Speaker 1: therefore also on an emotional level, and I don't think
Speaker 1: any amount of talking about their music could make us
Speaker 1: understand any better where it comes from or why it
Speaker 1: impacts us the way it does. What you can glean
Speaker 1: from talking about them, though, is they're beautiful people, warm,
Speaker 1: well adorned and committed, and I'm sure that's a big
Speaker 1: part of what makes the records deeply impactful and enduring.
Speaker 1: In our conversation, we talk about Maurice White, the founder
Speaker 1: of spiritual and musical leader of the group, who also
Speaker 1: is Verdein's brother. We listen to some of their music
Speaker 1: together and Phillip spills on what the song Reasons is
Speaker 1: actually all about. This is broken record, real musicians, real conversations.
Speaker 1: Here's my interview with Philip Bailey, Ralph Johnson, and Verdan
Speaker 1: White of Earthwin and Fire from Amazon Music Studio one
Speaker 1: twenty six.
Speaker 2: Man, earth Wind and Fire. That's it, Life and living Colors?
Speaker 2: Are you?
Speaker 1: I'm amazing, I'm amazing. I got done watching you guys
Speaker 1: documentary yesterday.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: I got to flip through your book, Ralph. I it
Speaker 1: was only sent to me yesterday, so I got to
Speaker 1: go through the full thing. Yet I read your book
Speaker 1: a long time ago, so we'll covered there. So I'm Steve.
Speaker 1: I've been listening to the music for a week. My
Speaker 1: spirit's high. Good deal, My spirits hi very good, very good.
Speaker 2: How you guys feeling feeling good, feeling fantastic.
Speaker 3: Enjoying this time, you know, at home, and then all
Speaker 3: the activities surrounding the documentary and the book, and so
Speaker 3: there's a lot going on right through here, and we're
Speaker 3: trying to keep it moving.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's amazing earth through the fire. It feels like
Speaker 1: you guys are ever present always, but it feels extra
Speaker 1: special right now with you guys, since the doc is
Speaker 1: coming out and I know it's premiering in a couple
Speaker 1: of weeks.
Speaker 2: It does. I mean, and you know, like I've been
Speaker 2: saying to the guys, because we're used to a lot
Speaker 2: of things, a lot of stuff happening, but I said,
Speaker 2: this is special. You know, you got to you gotta
Speaker 2: slow down and take a breath because this is special.
Speaker 2: You know, uh, not very many people get a chance
Speaker 2: to witness their body work done in a documentary. You know, Questlove.
Speaker 2: You know he's gonna you know, he knocks it out
Speaker 2: the park. You know, he's a music historian. Yep. And
Speaker 2: so yeah, we're just gonna take a breath and really
Speaker 2: enjoy this.
Speaker 1: You guys have had a lot of big moments throughout
Speaker 1: your career, but at this point you can feel when
Speaker 1: it is particularly big moments still.
Speaker 2: Exactly right, I mean, we're here because of that, right right?
Speaker 2: You know what are we talking about? You know, exactly exactly?
Speaker 1: Not have you guys every week if you want no doc?
Speaker 1: You know, open door for y'all. You know, The amazing
Speaker 1: thing about earthwin Fire is you guys are ever present.
Speaker 1: But because the music was always so, it wasn't even futuristic.
Speaker 1: It was just timeless in the real sense of the word,
Speaker 1: like like it could have existed in the sixteen hundreds
Speaker 1: or in three thy thirty or so. It never it's
Speaker 1: never felt like it's always felt. And I know they've
Speaker 1: tried to label at various times that I heard in
Speaker 1: the documentary progressive, soul, the different things. But you guys
Speaker 1: have always just sounded like yourselves. You guys have always
Speaker 1: had this uncannyability, unlike anyone else, to blend a bunch
Speaker 1: of styles in a way that just feels coherent and
Speaker 1: just feels soulful and beautiful. I just I don't know
Speaker 1: how you guys did that. Like, the documentary gave me
Speaker 1: a hint when it talked about Maurice journaling and his
Speaker 1: goals were to be, in just a paraphrase, his first
Speaker 1: goal was to be a band that can connect to everyone.
Speaker 1: Two number two was to be big. Three was to
Speaker 1: change the world. And I was like, that explains maybe
Speaker 1: why you guys sounded the way send But did that
Speaker 1: sound crazy to you when you heard it? From Maurice
Speaker 1: back then.
Speaker 2: You know, Maurice's vision was too one render a service
Speaker 2: to humanity, you know, so there was a a reason
Speaker 2: for doing the music that was bigger than himself are ourselves.
Speaker 2: And then you know, next it was to bring different
Speaker 2: genres of music together and make them commercial, so you know,
Speaker 2: you're there's something in there for everyone, you know, not
Speaker 2: on one particular song, but in the body of work,
Speaker 2: you know. So, and then the other thing was to
Speaker 2: bring Broadway to the stage, you know, to the concert stage.
Speaker 2: You know. The other one was to elevate the consciousness
Speaker 2: of you know, our listeners and to have a high
Speaker 2: degree of integrity as a musician, because he was like,
Speaker 2: he didn't want to further stereotype great musicianship. But we're
Speaker 2: all strong out you know.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, So all.
Speaker 2: Those things were and I you know, it was really
Speaker 2: really inspired. All those very clear, distinctive directions were something
Speaker 2: that he went about writing out and and and living out,
Speaker 2: you know, and we were young enough to buy into it,
Speaker 2: and uh, and then we were fortunate enough to work
Speaker 2: with a cast of so many talented people, from the
Speaker 2: record company to the writers, to the arrange arrangers, to
Speaker 2: the musicians.
Speaker 3: Engineer, you know.
Speaker 2: So it was it was a lot of things had
Speaker 2: to connect at the same time and they did.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and we were in the right place at the
Speaker 4: right time, in front of the right people with the
Speaker 4: right music, you know. And and the thing about it is, uh,
Speaker 4: the three of us who were sitting here, as Phillip said,
Speaker 4: we were young enough to buy into it and to
Speaker 4: be part of it and to grow within it and
Speaker 4: be able to express ourselves as well.
Speaker 1: And Philip said something about and I think they talk
Speaker 1: about it in the documentaries, you didn't want to be
Speaker 1: strung out. So no drugs, I mean being healthy and
Speaker 1: no drugs was part of that.
Speaker 2: It was more of a thing not to cut you off.
Speaker 2: But it wasn't something that was like, you know, everybody
Speaker 2: was squeaky clean or whatever. But Maurice led by example,
Speaker 2: and we were young enough for him to be an
Speaker 2: example to us, you know, and it was worth you know,
Speaker 2: we were looking at him and you know, you know,
Speaker 2: he didn't have to say do this or do that.
Speaker 2: It was like the proof was in the pudding, you know,
Speaker 2: like his actions were speaking louder than any words, you know,
Speaker 2: and so it's like, well, give me some of that
Speaker 2: vegetable suit. You know, you know what, let me let
Speaker 2: me check that out, you know at Johnny Wise miller
Speaker 2: on on Hollywood Boulevard, you know, and I had I
Speaker 2: was like, whoa, I felt a little light headed.
Speaker 3: You know, first protein drum.
Speaker 2: My, first healthy shake and stuff for healthy food.
Speaker 4: But it paid off.
Speaker 2: Hey, yes, it was wonderful. You know, it could have win.
Speaker 2: It could have been the opposite, you know, like you know,
Speaker 2: follow me this way led to nothing, but it was productive.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was very positive, indeed, you know, and we
Speaker 3: just kind of continued on along those lines.
Speaker 1: It made it easy to maybe to buy Ino to
Speaker 1: Maurice because he had had that success early with Chess
Speaker 1: being a drummer, right, which was no small thing. I'm
Speaker 1: sure you know Verdin havn't been there like just to
Speaker 1: he's your brother one day and the next day he's
Speaker 1: drumming on these hit records and he's making a name
Speaker 1: for something. Moving to LA and starting to oh.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, I was in college. I had it
Speaker 4: all planned. I was going to be a doctor. I
Speaker 4: was going to do this, I was going to do that.
Speaker 4: Then he called me one day after he had moved
Speaker 4: to California. After leaving the Ramsey Lewis Tree and said,
Speaker 4: you want to come to California, man, And that sounded
Speaker 4: like a little girl. I said sure, and I got
Speaker 4: the first thing smoking about a month later. I came
Speaker 4: out here in California was so different. It was just
Speaker 4: so different. I had never seen so many people, and
Speaker 4: I saw everybody, all the hippies and the music and
Speaker 4: boulevard oh yeah, all that stuff. And so it was
Speaker 4: a great learning experience as well, you know, and as
Speaker 4: I said before in some of our other interviews, the
Speaker 4: three of us became adults together.
Speaker 2: We grew up together. Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, What year did you come to la Verdin June sixth,
Speaker 4: nineteen seventy, nineteen seventy.
Speaker 1: And what did it look like to you? Coming from Chicago?
Speaker 1: What did it? What did la look like?
Speaker 4: Totally different? Everybody friendly, everybody's saying hello, because you know,
Speaker 4: we come out of Chicago. Everybody you know, you know,
Speaker 4: holding their chest, you know, nobody they didn't open up
Speaker 4: to you. But California was like, it was just a
Speaker 4: totally different thing. You know. I'd wave to everybody, Hi,
Speaker 4: how are you? How are you doing?
Speaker 1: Hey?
Speaker 4: How are you? Because they were they were waving right back,
Speaker 4: you know, and so so.
Speaker 3: It was it was different consciousness.
Speaker 4: It was good. It was a great feeling. And and
Speaker 4: H and I also traveled. I was around an adult Maurice,
Speaker 4: who led me the right way, particularly in California, because
Speaker 4: I had never been anywhere. I had never been on
Speaker 4: a plane, I had never I never left home that
Speaker 4: that never did anything.
Speaker 1: And when you got here, you you were already and
Speaker 1: you joined the band. Were they already with Warner Records?
Speaker 1: Had that band with Warner with Warner Brothers? Right?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you you come out even been anywhere, you
Speaker 1: come to California and you are you're playing base for
Speaker 1: a band that signed a major label. You're playing with
Speaker 1: your brother. I mean, it had to be a dream
Speaker 1: come true.
Speaker 4: We did the True records on Warner Brothers. And I
Speaker 4: didn't even look at it. I was so young, I
Speaker 4: didn't even look at it as a major label. I
Speaker 4: just look at it. We're going to make a record,
Speaker 4: you know, And and then you know, we just kept
Speaker 4: doing it, and you know, of course that evolved and
Speaker 4: out here in California, you know, that's where I met Philip, Yeah,
Speaker 4: an Ralph, do you guys.
Speaker 1: Want to talk about how you guys joined the band.
Speaker 3: I was playing at a club down on crunch t
Speaker 3: Ofu Boulevard. The building is still there, was called Maverick's Flat.
Speaker 3: I was playing at a club and uh, oh you know,
Speaker 3: you know famous, uh, the famous spot. And I was
Speaker 3: playing there and Dean and Maurice came into town. They
Speaker 3: saw me playing with this group called the Master's Children.
Speaker 3: And the next thing I knew, the guitar player at
Speaker 3: that time with the group, his name was Michael Beal,
Speaker 3: called me up and asked me if I wanted to audition.
Speaker 3: I said yeah, sure, so I did the audition and
Speaker 3: after the audition Verdeen called Maurice and Maurice said, well
Speaker 3: what do you think and verdein so, yeah, he's the cat,
Speaker 3: And we just kind of went on from there and
Speaker 3: kept going.
Speaker 1: Did you know Maurice was a drummer when play with
Speaker 1: Ramsey Lewis you did?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Live?
Speaker 3: Not live? No, I saw it on TV. But I mean,
Speaker 3: but think about this though. A jazz drummer wakes up
Speaker 3: one day and says, hmm, I'm going to start a pop,
Speaker 3: some pop R and B thing. I don't know what
Speaker 3: it's going to be, but I'm starting it and this
Speaker 3: is what it is today. Yeah, who does that?
Speaker 2: He was specific about what he wanted to do, you know,
Speaker 2: because and this was what was interesting on the documentary
Speaker 2: that when Bob Cavallo and uh, several other people talk
Speaker 2: to Maurice about, you know, the vision that he had
Speaker 2: was going to be better realized by having some younger guys. Yeah,
Speaker 2: everybody being Verdine's age, you know. Then you know, that's
Speaker 2: when they began to look around. And they had met
Speaker 2: me in Denver, where you grew up, right, yep. And
Speaker 2: the first band, our band had opened the show for
Speaker 2: for them their promotion show, and uh, through you know,
Speaker 2: Perry Jones, who was a mentor of ours. But yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, we were able to meet Maurice had Maurice
Speaker 2: had on bell bottom pants and he smelled like coconut oil.
Speaker 2: I remember that so distinctly because I'm a you know,
Speaker 2: a hick town called Denver boy, and we don't know
Speaker 2: nothing about no no, you know, send it oils.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: So it's like I knew I could, I could. I
Speaker 2: smelled it cocainut, you know.
Speaker 1: Which also had hippies out, and yeah, you're right, Yeah, heck, yeah,
Speaker 1: that was hippie Nation. Were you into rock music at all?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean very much. So, you know, being
Speaker 2: from Colorado, it was you know a plethora of music
Speaker 2: from indigenous music to you know, country to popped rocked
Speaker 2: very little R and B music on the radio that
Speaker 2: we only had it from certain hours of the day,
Speaker 2: you know, and then later on it became twenty four
Speaker 2: hours on one of the stations. But yeah, my education
Speaker 2: really in cultural music grew being in the fire. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Would you guys listen to music together? Pick out what
Speaker 1: it was.
Speaker 2: Like a college? It was like being in a universe
Speaker 2: because you had Maurice's comrades, Don Myrek and Saderfield and
Speaker 2: and so they were they were older than us and
Speaker 2: had had a lot more experience overall musically, so they
Speaker 2: would you know, take us under their wing and mentor us,
Speaker 2: you know, and you know, into the music, and you know,
Speaker 2: so it was and we were always together. So it
Speaker 2: was like being on a traveling school.
Speaker 1: You just want to play two things, maybe just to
Speaker 1: illustrate the way the band evolved from those first couple
Speaker 1: of Warner records where you guys aren't involved yet and
Speaker 1: then and then kind of where the sound goes pretty quickly.
Speaker 4: Get it and let's stick back because that, yeah, I
Speaker 4: remember that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Handwriting's on the Wall.
Speaker 2: Was that sweep?
Speaker 1: This came out on uh after you guys left Warner
Speaker 1: they put out the greatest Hits album look like that.
Speaker 1: It's never but yeah, yeah, yeah, and this, and it's
Speaker 1: just most like early on, you guys have more of
Speaker 1: a almost just kind of you guys are more funk
Speaker 1: and kind of in the in the it's it's less jazzy,
Speaker 1: you know, it's a little less jazzy blues rooted music.
Speaker 1: Not that the kids away from the blues, but this
Speaker 1: is great. But you go from like this kind of
Speaker 1: a thing and sweet sweet back with Melvin van Peebles
Speaker 1: to something like this, which is just one two years later.
Speaker 1: I want to wait for the vocal to come in
Speaker 1: real quick.
Speaker 5: Lesa to he wand I find in every week.
Speaker 3: Burd inside for.
Speaker 1: The clue no thing that was bound to do. Keep
Speaker 1: my head. It's like you you can hear the old
Speaker 1: band and then you can hear how it filled out
Speaker 1: even more with you guys.
Speaker 4: Theis is there, the genesis, You're there all the things
Speaker 4: in the beginning you know, you know, had it was growing,
Speaker 4: but the genesis of Earth Winning Fire was there.
Speaker 3: Yeah, with this right here is denying. This is the
Speaker 3: group that would go on to conquer the world.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, you know yeah, conceptually you can hear that
Speaker 2: Maurice uh had a vision for the music from the
Speaker 2: first Earth Winding Fire because when you listen to Sherry Scott,
Speaker 2: you know, I think about loving you and all that
Speaker 2: kind of stuff. Well, you know, I'm I'm the second generation,
Speaker 2: you know, so like you listen ahead to the sky,
Speaker 2: you know, you can hear that it's not so out
Speaker 2: of the blue because it you know, it was there
Speaker 2: with those records that they were doing one you know,
Speaker 2: but this is just a different you know, it's like
Speaker 2: an extension extension.
Speaker 1: It really almost feels like it's like almost just like
Speaker 1: a music. It's like a chord, regular chord. Then you
Speaker 1: just had the ninth eleventh.
Speaker 3: Analogy.
Speaker 1: Who were the not you said that those were you
Speaker 1: know you want to say that.
Speaker 3: Well, you had Maurice Dean Phil, you had Johnny al
Speaker 3: Both on guitar, right right, You had Larry on keyboards. Yeah,
Speaker 3: you had myself from Freddy and then Andrew.
Speaker 6: Yeah, the nine yeah, and then even beyond that, then
Speaker 6: someone like on that Jessica Cleaves is on there too,
Speaker 6: but Jessica would leave and we would be left with
Speaker 6: the nine guys, you know.
Speaker 1: So it's just an unbelievable how did you guys? So,
Speaker 1: just like you said, this is a band. Maurice is
Speaker 1: a drummer, You're a drummer. D Phillips a drummer, Verdin
Speaker 1: and Maurice's brother Fred is a drummer.
Speaker 2: And Al McKay was a drummer, right, mkay was a drummer.
Speaker 1: You're a singer. Maurice is a singer. You're a singer.
Speaker 1: Jessica Scleeves is the singer. It's like a how did
Speaker 1: you guys balance the embarrassment of riches you guys had
Speaker 1: in the group? How did you orchestrate? How did you
Speaker 1: know if someone came in the study with the song?
Speaker 1: How did you know who was going to do what?
Speaker 2: Well? It kind of evolved, you know, and Maurice being
Speaker 2: the spearhead, he he didn't always know exactly what he wanted,
Speaker 2: but he knew what he didn't want, you know, and
Speaker 2: so you know, if there were ideas that that fit
Speaker 2: into you know, the consciousness of where he was going
Speaker 2: for the band, he would develop those ideas.
Speaker 1: Would you guys just try to if he knew what
Speaker 1: he didn't necessarily always know exactly what he wanted, but
Speaker 1: knew what he didn't want. Would that mean that you
Speaker 1: guys would just try to contribute things.
Speaker 2: Funny thing though, you could always tell when he didn't
Speaker 2: like something. He goes, yeah, yeah, pretty pretty nice little
Speaker 2: piece you got there. You know, he would say very
Speaker 2: little about it. He would call it, or he would
Speaker 2: say pretty nice little that was like that was like
Speaker 2: you know that, you know, that was a bless not yet,
Speaker 2: not yet. But if he if if there was something
Speaker 2: that you know, that you that you brought that you know,
Speaker 2: clicks with him, he would jump right he would jump
Speaker 2: right on it.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 2: Like my first collaboration was evil, you know, and it
Speaker 2: was like it was surreal to me because I had
Speaker 2: this idea and I showed it to him, and then
Speaker 2: the next thing I knew, he said, you know that
Speaker 2: you know that little piece showing me, Oh, this is
Speaker 2: what I did with it?
Speaker 1: What how did you bring evil to him?
Speaker 2: What did you I had the sea plot, the evil thing,
Speaker 2: and I had lyrics and I had a melody and stuff,
Speaker 2: but he flipped. He flipped all that. He really heard
Speaker 2: you know what I was trying to do, you know, yeah,
Speaker 2: and it was inspiring to him enough to take the
Speaker 2: situation and flip it. Wow.
Speaker 3: Here's the question. So, at the time that you started
Speaker 3: writing with him, did you really really understand the value
Speaker 3: of the writing and the publishing side of it.
Speaker 2: Oh heck no, okay, yeah i't. I ain't understand that
Speaker 2: till yesterday.
Speaker 3: Oh man, Oh wow, okay, yeah, I'm still waiting to
Speaker 3: some money out there waiting for you to explain all that.
Speaker 5: Oh my god.
Speaker 3: Okay, yes, but you.
Speaker 1: Were code writer on that, right, You did get credit
Speaker 1: on yeah, ye yeah.
Speaker 2: That's why I said that was my first you know,
Speaker 2: real co written ye venture.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: We'll be back with more from Earthen and Fire after
Speaker 1: the break. And for Dean, how did you? You are
Speaker 1: such a unique bass player. I mean, you have the
Speaker 1: lowen thing going, You kind of have that cool James
Speaker 1: Jamerson melodic harmonic complexity thing going like I mean, but
Speaker 1: you're almost like the best of all basis, like you
Speaker 1: have a little bit of everything of all those different
Speaker 1: styles in you, you know what I mean?
Speaker 4: Well, for me, first of all, you know, I love
Speaker 4: the bass. You know, I love the sound of it.
Speaker 4: When I when I first saw the bass, it spoke
Speaker 4: to me. It spoke to me, you know, you said,
Speaker 4: I want to play this. The bass came at me. Wow,
Speaker 4: you know, and and it was upright, bas basis bigger
Speaker 4: than I was at the time, you know. And uh,
Speaker 4: and then I was able to like really coming out
Speaker 4: of Chicago, you know, you know, you were you were
Speaker 4: talking earlier, the different genres of music coming out of Chicago,
Speaker 4: you know, R and B, jazz, pop. You know, there
Speaker 4: was a lot of different genres for me to pull from.
Speaker 4: So when I would hear something, I automatically hurt the
Speaker 4: bass within it. And then when I came to California,
Speaker 4: it really crystallized because we were able to I was
Speaker 4: able to really concentrate on on music, on the bass,
Speaker 4: and then later on putting the bass where the where
Speaker 4: the bass fit? Yeah, you know, you know, because at
Speaker 4: first when I started started playing, cut the bass up,
Speaker 4: cut the bass up. Well, you have to put the
Speaker 4: bass within the track of what it sounds like. In
Speaker 4: other words, you don't want to just to stand out right.
Speaker 4: You wanted to stand out in a certain way, but
Speaker 4: you wanted to be part of the song.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know.
Speaker 4: And that's that's what I learned when I came here
Speaker 4: and you played earlier two songs. But for me, the
Speaker 4: first two Earth Winy five records, I was sort of
Speaker 4: like winging it a little bit, you know, winging. But
Speaker 4: the record that crystallized from me was the Need of
Speaker 4: Love album really from me, the tune Energy, I'm gonna
Speaker 4: play That's what that's really when it came together for
Speaker 4: me because the records much more looser. You know, I
Speaker 4: was really hearing growing into it, growing into it, whereas
Speaker 4: I was just trying to hang on on the first record.
Speaker 4: You know, I did a record, whereas now I'm doing
Speaker 4: a record. So how do I how do I implant
Speaker 4: myself within the record. And the tune that did it
Speaker 4: for me was a tune called Energy.
Speaker 2: Was that I could feel it in my bones.
Speaker 4: Right right right, and then it then it goes left,
Speaker 4: It goes left into some Miles David stuff and I
Speaker 4: was right there with it too, man, you know, And
Speaker 4: that was those were those were things that couldn't be explained. Yeah,
Speaker 4: when you get to this section, you gotta do this here.
Speaker 4: It was like it just you just knew you had
Speaker 4: to hear it. It just it just switched, It just went,
Speaker 4: you know, because it started off as a drum solo
Speaker 4: with Maurice doing it, then got into the tunes and
Speaker 4: all of a sudden it just turned and it just
Speaker 4: kept it kept it kept going.
Speaker 2: Yeah. But you know, it's a you know that story.
Speaker 2: It's a testament to the fact that Verting was not
Speaker 2: only really really gifted as a musician basis, but he
Speaker 2: was destined. It was destiny, you know, because when you
Speaker 2: tell when he tells that story and you think about,
Speaker 2: you know, the what most musicians know at a certain
Speaker 2: point in their in their careers and their recording careers.
Speaker 2: He was so young to it, you know. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: and laying it down in a fashion in which he
Speaker 2: did was just very extraordinary.
Speaker 1: I think. Just to illustrate that too, and what what
Speaker 1: Maurice brought to a song and what you guys also
Speaker 1: collectively as a group brought to a song, I want
Speaker 1: to play a little bit of the creative source version
Speaker 1: of you can't high Love version. You can just hear
Speaker 1: the difference between how you guys get ahold.
Speaker 5: Of a song and you know, no, he wasn't in it, okay,
Speaker 5: and it's it's cool, but it's not a classic until.
Speaker 1: Right right, step got a whole Well, Charles Stephane, you
Speaker 1: saying yeah.
Speaker 4: And then res on the times I think coming.
Speaker 6: To him.
Speaker 1: You want my love and you have an.
Speaker 2: You know it's true.
Speaker 1: Try it's like you can hear the song actually now yeah,
Speaker 1: and there's still this crazy arrangement around it, but it
Speaker 1: doesn't distract from the song.
Speaker 4: That other version, where as we called it, it was
Speaker 4: a hippo version.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was hip.
Speaker 4: Where's the other version of Can't Handle? Kind of remind
Speaker 4: me of a Fifth Dimensions?
Speaker 1: It was very much a.
Speaker 2: Concept.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's the way it was.
Speaker 2: Interesting because the because Skip and Jerry and them were there,
Speaker 2: they were working with you know, the Fifth Dimensions writing
Speaker 2: songs and stuff, working with friends and the Friends of
Speaker 2: Distinction and all that kind of stuff. So you can
Speaker 2: kind of see where that where that was going vocal groups.
Speaker 2: But that dog on Charles Stepney was just you know,
Speaker 2: if there wasn't a Charles Stepney, there would not be
Speaker 2: an Earth on fire because he was just he was
Speaker 2: that important to you know, what we were to become
Speaker 2: so Maurice was the visionary, but Charles kitt was able
Speaker 2: to He was the consummate writer, producers, musician, arranger that
Speaker 2: he was able to to really hear where Murice's thought.
Speaker 2: He wanted to go and say, Okay, this is the
Speaker 2: way you arrive at that destination. This is the way
Speaker 2: you do it, and I could show you.
Speaker 1: For people who don't know you guys want to say,
Speaker 1: who Charles Stepney. I don't think it's a name everyone
Speaker 1: readily knows.
Speaker 2: You know, but yeah, and it's you know, it's it's
Speaker 2: it's a shame because Charles Stepney was the co producer
Speaker 2: and I take the co off. You know, he was
Speaker 2: the producer with Maurice on.
Speaker 3: The records, arranger.
Speaker 2: And the and the arranger and you know, and you
Speaker 2: know he he was able to guide me as a
Speaker 2: vocalist on how to sing, reasons and how they record,
Speaker 2: how to think, you know, and and when not to think.
Speaker 2: You know. But he was like a he was like
Speaker 2: a big brother and you know accounts he was. He was,
Speaker 2: he was He could be everything you know to us
Speaker 2: at just the right time.
Speaker 4: He was like our Quincy Jones, our George Martin like that.
Speaker 4: The Beatles had because we had these ideas, but he
Speaker 4: was able to walk us through it and as Phillip said,
Speaker 4: how to get there. But he did it in a
Speaker 4: way he would teach you, you know, like he would
Speaker 4: on basis said, okay, give me a double slop, and
Speaker 4: I didn't know what the double slop was, so we
Speaker 4: so we said, okay, we're gonna put it together. We're
Speaker 4: gonna see g and then you just go down. Then
Speaker 4: we go down to scale, go down, and he would
Speaker 4: teach you why you were doing it.
Speaker 2: He would, he would really teach you, and he would
Speaker 2: and it wouldn't always it wouldn't go above your head,
Speaker 2: you know, because you know, these these progressions and stuff.
Speaker 2: We might have not been a lot of the musicians
Speaker 2: may not have been as sophisticated as the ones they're
Speaker 2: playing in our band today, you know. But Charles was
Speaker 2: able to say, you know, play this triad and leave
Speaker 2: this out. You know, you play this and leave this,
Speaker 2: you know, and and derived at what he wanted to
Speaker 2: hear without overwhelming the musicians with the theory.
Speaker 1: And that's and that's a big part of the arrangements
Speaker 1: are such a crucial part of you guys, because just
Speaker 1: like in that song. It's like the arrangement is really insane,
Speaker 1: it's really crazy. It's a wild arrangement, but it doesn't
Speaker 1: obscure the song. It doesn't obscure what you guys are
Speaker 1: doing with the song exactly. It's very similar to Quincy
Speaker 1: or George Martin right like the way it's he could
Speaker 1: really take musicians and teach them something different, but not
Speaker 1: take away from the song. There was an album Charles
Speaker 1: step News his family put out an album of some
Speaker 1: of his stuff before and on it a couple of
Speaker 1: years ago. They have the early demo of That's the
Speaker 1: Way of the World on there. Oh and play a
Speaker 1: little bit of that?
Speaker 2: Is it like a salsa kind of thing?
Speaker 3: Whoa really?
Speaker 2: Because I remember I remember hearing That's the Way of
Speaker 2: the World, but it was a different groove. Okay, see
Speaker 2: go see. And this is how we would hear stuff
Speaker 2: that Charles would bring because he would be down there
Speaker 2: in that day basement tickering and stuff and he would.
Speaker 3: That's got how Larry started on that move synthesizer, and
Speaker 3: Larry took it and ran with it.
Speaker 1: But as cool as that is, I mean to to
Speaker 1: for for to turn up for this to be the
Speaker 1: fire result.
Speaker 3: Unbelievable. That's what the production is about, Yeah, finding it,
Speaker 3: and then it.
Speaker 2: Was about it was about the fact that we had
Speaker 2: all the right people at the right time, you know,
Speaker 2: like you know, if you take any of those ingredients out,
Speaker 2: it couldn't have been what it was. Al Macay it's
Speaker 2: so much a part of the greatness of what the
Speaker 2: earth Fire became because he was the guy who could
Speaker 2: take whatever idea and make it funky, you know, really
Speaker 2: really put a groove on it, you know, and uh
Speaker 2: you know, and because him and Vertein worked so closely together.
Speaker 2: If you got Verdein and al going in this in
Speaker 2: a certain direction, you got half the band is yeah,
Speaker 2: half the work is done.
Speaker 4: And Sweets would say, it's right here, it's right here,
Speaker 4: don't go nowhere. And he could hold that groove man
Speaker 4: for an hour and a half and it would just
Speaker 4: get better and better and better better. I mean uh
Speaker 4: like like like Philip said, you know, uh, shake up,
Speaker 4: I mean all those things that you can't put on paper. Yeah,
Speaker 4: so you and you would you and him would really
Speaker 4: like that. Yeah, we had like a sixth sense where
Speaker 4: it was gonna go wow. And even if the notes
Speaker 4: are wrong. They sounded good after you played it with him.
Speaker 1: That's amazing. More from Earth Wound and Fire after the break,
Speaker 1: I want to play a little bit of your point
Speaker 1: of like how a mkay could make anything funky when
Speaker 1: you stripped back. And also this Shining Star goes back
Speaker 1: to Colorado also because I didn't know until I saw
Speaker 1: the doc that you guys are out recording at Caribou
Speaker 1: ranching in Colorado and Maurice goes out for a walk
Speaker 1: and sees the stars and comes up that day for
Speaker 1: Shining Star. But for this opening groove, I mean, it's
Speaker 1: such a funky song, such a classic funk song, but
Speaker 1: when you listen to that opening, it really is just
Speaker 1: like a boogie woogie blues, like a like that opening man,
Speaker 1: just I mean, he made it so funky, and you
Speaker 1: right in there with the interplay with them Verdin, But
Speaker 1: it's just a blue. It's really just like a blues.
Speaker 1: It's like a fast waller, kind of like a riff
Speaker 1: or something.
Speaker 4: Also, to Philip had said earlier, there were so many
Speaker 4: people that helped us. Another major component was George Massenberg
Speaker 4: in terms of that sound. To get the sound out
Speaker 4: of those instruments, you know, particularly for Black Group sonically
Speaker 4: that when you heard it you would say, oh my god.
Speaker 4: George was a big, big.
Speaker 2: Part of that. It was inspiring his his what he
Speaker 2: would bring would inspire other stuff.
Speaker 1: Really.
Speaker 3: And he was an electrical engineer. He had a George
Speaker 3: had a room at the complex in the back where
Speaker 3: he would just if he wasn't in the studio working
Speaker 3: on music, he was back there tinkering outsider and iron
Speaker 3: and a transistor here, dialed over here. You know, he
Speaker 3: was always back there.
Speaker 1: And he has a I mean, his name in the
Speaker 1: engineering world is unimpeachable, but he wasn't George Massenberg. When
Speaker 1: you guys were starting with.
Speaker 2: Maurice hunted him down. He found he was I don't
Speaker 2: remember the exact story, but but when he when he
Speaker 2: heard about George, and I think he was living in
Speaker 2: the Washington D C. Area of Baltimore, Baltimore, Maurice actually
Speaker 2: you know, sought him out, you know, and uh brought
Speaker 2: him into into the fold.
Speaker 1: Iways wanted to ask you guys about We talked about
Speaker 1: Charles Stepney when an influence he had, but you know,
Speaker 1: he he died too soon, too young.
Speaker 3: And you in the middle of making Spirit on Spirit.
Speaker 3: As a matter of fact, we were about to cut
Speaker 3: the track Spirit. I was on the drums and Maurice
Speaker 3: got the phone call that Stepney had just passed, and
Speaker 3: we just went on and cut that track. But that's
Speaker 3: right after we got the news. I remember that clearly, Wow, clearly,
Speaker 3: And that and the man that had to be heavy,
Speaker 3: well yeah it was.
Speaker 2: It was very earth shattering.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, but you know, the thing that amazes
Speaker 1: me is like the next record you guys do after Spirit,
Speaker 1: all in all, he wasn't there to help guide you guys,
Speaker 1: and it is just one of the all time in
Speaker 1: my mind. Like it's hard to pick a favorite Earth
Speaker 1: Wind and Fire album, but all in all, the fact
Speaker 1: that you guys, it's not just you guys, and you're
Speaker 1: kind of mentor or maybe Maurice's mentor is not there,
Speaker 1: and you guys go in and cut, you know, I mean,
Speaker 1: all all in all starts off with serpenting Fire, goes
Speaker 1: into fantasy, Jupiter loves Holiday, Beijo, I'll write a song
Speaker 1: for you, which is a great feature for you. Philip
Speaker 1: and Magic Mind running Brazil doing Wayne Shorter's pont Day area,
Speaker 1: like just put an insane album. So you guys didn't
Speaker 1: miss a beat really, you know musically Yeah, well I'm
Speaker 1: sure you missed him obviously, but musically you guys were
Speaker 1: just you know.
Speaker 2: You can't take anything away from from Maurice's genius. And
Speaker 2: you know when we when we talk about step, it
Speaker 2: doesn't take anything away from from Maurice. It just gives
Speaker 2: Charles what he deserves. You know, it was very important
Speaker 2: that that we that we do that cause he meant
Speaker 2: that much to us.
Speaker 1: Yeah, do you remember the idea of having to make
Speaker 1: a record without him being around?
Speaker 2: Yeah? We were fortunate, like I said, not to be redundant.
Speaker 2: We're fortunate enough that if you work with us, it
Speaker 2: was you were accomplished in your craft. Reese didn't pick
Speaker 2: people to work with that were, you know, not excellent
Speaker 2: and what they and what they did. So all of
Speaker 2: the major people we knew, and you know, he would
Speaker 2: go after whatever he was hearing in his head. He
Speaker 2: would go after the right ingredients to add in there.
Speaker 1: Do you guys have a favorite Earth Wind and Fire album?
Speaker 4: There are kids, man, you know you're not thinking I
Speaker 4: would say this if you asked us, maybe ten twenty
Speaker 4: years ago, we could give you like one, yeah, but
Speaker 4: now the time is past.
Speaker 2: There's just so many of them and you love them
Speaker 2: all for different reasons of what they brought. I was
Speaker 2: heartbroken that Faces was did not do any you know what.
Speaker 3: The underrated because great material. There's a lot of.
Speaker 2: Great material on that on that record. I think some
Speaker 2: of the greatest works that that we did collectively, some
Speaker 2: of it are on Faces.
Speaker 1: That's a really good record.
Speaker 2: It really sail away.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, one of my favorites offa there.
Speaker 1: I always wonderful I had to do with this, one
Speaker 1: of the first records where in a while where it
Speaker 1: wasn't the cover wasn't like psychedelic, It wasn't like the
Speaker 1: cover was it was just face. It was people. It
Speaker 1: was really simple and really it was beautiful in this way,
Speaker 1: but it was really simple, and you guys had these
Speaker 1: really almost like Funkadelic. You guys had really signature album
Speaker 1: covers for for for such a stretch.
Speaker 4: You know, in Faces, there was a young man with
Speaker 4: a boombox that was Chaka Khan's brother. Really yeah, yeah,
Speaker 4: you know, random shots of people and it was Faces.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: How much were you guys like connected to the other
Speaker 1: artists around like Shaka or even like you know, you
Speaker 1: guys do like a Wayne Shorter song. He's around with
Speaker 1: Herbie Quincy's making stuff like.
Speaker 2: Are you guys? We were managed by the same management
Speaker 2: group as Weather Report, and so we did several stints
Speaker 2: where we'd gig together. Whether that was fantastic just to
Speaker 2: hear you know, jos Avenue and Wayne and then you know,
Speaker 2: like play before us. It was like it was crazy.
Speaker 2: We played some colleges and stuff together, you know, but
Speaker 2: you know, interestingly enough, we were kind of in a bubble, right.
Speaker 2: I didn't really begin to really branch out, know people,
Speaker 2: till we got it. We broke up, you know, for
Speaker 2: those you a couple of years, and because we were
Speaker 2: just we're always working, always planning the work on tour
Speaker 2: and on tour. And you gotta have to understand that
Speaker 2: we went from mama's house to Earth went Fire, that's right,
Speaker 2: that's right.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you guys got plucked right out of home, right
Speaker 4: and then coming from my house, h I met a
Speaker 4: new brother, Philip and another brother, Ralph, so it's like
Speaker 4: it was just like an extension, so we didn't know
Speaker 4: anybody but us.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's amazing. I was reading through your book a
Speaker 1: bit last night and reading in a little bit about
Speaker 1: that that period where you guys you know, went separate,
Speaker 1: raised as a group for a while, and in it
Speaker 1: you really talk about wrestling with is this a break?
Speaker 1: Is this the rest of my life? And my am
Speaker 1: I doing music and.
Speaker 2: All that kind of break.
Speaker 3: The way it was done would cause you to think that, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: you know, yeah, it was just like a meeting and
Speaker 3: then okay, run a break. That's how quickly it happened,
Speaker 3: and that's the way it happened, you know, So it
Speaker 3: would caused you to, you know, pause about your future.
Speaker 1: And you have success producing with Al McKay the Tempts,
Speaker 1: but then you also start doing construction and you're working
Speaker 1: at a stereo.
Speaker 3: Store federated Stereos Lebria.
Speaker 1: When I was reading through that, what struck me was
Speaker 1: now forty years later, you guys are it's like you
Speaker 1: guys never It's like that window, as probably emotionally fraud
Speaker 1: as it was at the at that point, was such
Speaker 1: a small window in the.
Speaker 3: Overall, the overall picture, the overall picture of the group,
Speaker 3: just the moment.
Speaker 1: You would never know that that moment happened, and the
Speaker 1: fact that the three of you without Maurice now sadly
Speaker 1: without so many people that we've lost, that you guys
Speaker 1: are able to continue to give the gift of earth
Speaker 1: when and fire to the world forty years after you
Speaker 1: guys coming back together in around nineteen eighty six, nineteen
Speaker 1: eighty seven. That it's just it's it's mind.
Speaker 3: Well, one of the things that the book talks about
Speaker 3: is resilience and to bounce back. Yeah, you got.
Speaker 4: But in those forty years and those little glitches, you know,
Speaker 4: you know, it all wasn't roses. You know, we were growing,
Speaker 4: we were we were discovering ourselves, you know, and then,
Speaker 4: as I mentioned in the doc a lot of the
Speaker 4: bigger things that happened for us happened later.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 4: Normally a lot of people would get accolades up at
Speaker 4: the top. We got a lot of ours on the
Speaker 4: back end, you know, as we call it, the back nine,
Speaker 4: you know. And part of that had a lot to
Speaker 4: do with, I think, with the technology of sampling of
Speaker 4: the artists coming along discovering us and and sampling our
Speaker 4: music in their music. H and so and the parents,
Speaker 4: you know, like your parents was telling you about us,
Speaker 4: and it started working that way, you know, like when
Speaker 4: we first started, you know how people say I love
Speaker 4: your music, we think your music's great. Now they come
Speaker 4: up to us and they thank us for making the music. Yeah,
Speaker 4: it's like a big thank you. Yeah, you know, well
Speaker 4: because it really is. And I'm embarrassed to say too.
Speaker 1: My first the first time I figured out who you
Speaker 1: guys were was from watching Fresh Prince of bel Air
Speaker 1: when I was a young kid, and they had a
Speaker 1: joke with the law firm that the dad worked for
Speaker 1: was first Win Admire, and I was like, that's so
Speaker 1: like first Win Amire. And then as you grow and
Speaker 1: you grow older and you just you absorb your music
Speaker 1: through the radio, through buying the records, through streaming, through
Speaker 1: hearing them in films or commercials or whatever, you just
Speaker 1: realize it's almost as if all that stuff that we
Speaker 1: were a top. We were kind of joking about about Maurice,
Speaker 1: where he was living healthy and drinking smoothies and proaching
Speaker 1: the shakes and eating healthy. And there's a great story
Speaker 1: in the dock about you guys meditating before the show. Yeah,
Speaker 1: like just insane, and the audience is losing their minds
Speaker 1: and you guys are just sitting there meditating for five, six, seven,
Speaker 1: eight minutes. But it's almost like all of that went
Speaker 1: into the music. And for those of us who weren't
Speaker 1: there while it was being made, while was being released,
Speaker 1: hearing it after the fact, it really does transmit, you
Speaker 1: know all it feels like all that spiritual work, it
Speaker 1: really does transmit. I think that's people relate to start.
Speaker 1: But then, but when Maurice passed, you know, we're gone
Speaker 1: a lot. You know, we travel a lot, so we're
Speaker 1: not home as as as much, you know, as a
Speaker 1: lot of people.
Speaker 4: When Maurice passed. When I got back, I had the
Speaker 4: biggest card, like from here to here from your neighbors.
Speaker 4: The neighbors had all signed a card because when you know,
Speaker 4: when the news hit, it was all over the world,
Speaker 4: of course. Yeah, and but my neighbors had signed this
Speaker 4: big card.
Speaker 1: That must have been a lot. Yeah, that must have
Speaker 1: been a lot. I mean, Maurice been a lot, and
Speaker 1: you guys all do man, you know absolutely, I was fortunately.
Speaker 1: I think the first Earth Wind and Fire show I
Speaker 1: saw was around two thousand and nine at the Hollywood Bowl.
Speaker 1: Marie just came out on stage for a seconds, right right.
Speaker 1: I was like Wow, it's amazing.
Speaker 4: You know, that's when he decided to write his book.
Speaker 1: I think was it before we wrap Philip, I'm gonna ask,
Speaker 1: would you mind telling the story of reasons?
Speaker 5: Oh?
Speaker 1: Well, here we go, here we go.
Speaker 2: You know, we were on the road and we were
Speaker 2: in we had just landed and I think it was
Speaker 2: at Philly or Atlanta. It's one of them. How much
Speaker 2: of issue you want to know?
Speaker 1: This is good for you, it's with the world.
Speaker 3: So are we recording this?
Speaker 2: Wait a minute, it's in the dock. It's in the docks.
Speaker 3: In the dock, I said, okay, if you've already put
Speaker 3: it in the doc failure.
Speaker 2: Well, we all, you know, like bands have groupies, you know,
Speaker 2: And so we were on a plane and uh there
Speaker 2: was this fine lady that was on the plane, and
Speaker 2: so like you know, like everybody like all the all
Speaker 2: the the the women chasing members who have their eyes
Speaker 2: on this particular lady.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: So it just so happened that when we got off
Speaker 2: the plane, you know, our road manager, Leonard, you know,
Speaker 2: we had you know, eye signals. We know, we had
Speaker 2: our signals where we go, dude, So I gave him
Speaker 2: the signal we get to the hotel. She's in the
Speaker 2: in the in the lobby. I go to the room,
Speaker 2: Leonard hooks up. She's in the room, okay, And so
Speaker 2: you know, we have an evening together and the whole thing.
Speaker 2: And the next morning, you know how guys think that
Speaker 2: I conquered. The next morning, you know, I got up
Speaker 2: to go to the bathroom or something, but I hear
Speaker 2: her on the phone. She's talking to her baby, talking
Speaker 2: to her boo. You know, Oh yeah, I got, you know,
Speaker 2: giving him this story of what happened, you know, why
Speaker 2: she ain't home and stuff, you know. And so I
Speaker 2: get out the bathroom and she says to me, you know,
Speaker 2: something to the fact like, yeah, when I saw you,
Speaker 2: I just said this had to go down. So, you know,
Speaker 2: like my ego was like, okay, so that happened. So
Speaker 2: I'm having this conversation with Maurice, you know, on the
Speaker 2: plane and stuff. We're talking about this situation and stuff.
Speaker 2: And that's how the whole Reasons thing came about. That's
Speaker 2: how the whole the lyrics for Reasons and that whole concept.
Speaker 1: I mean for that to be one of the most
Speaker 1: romantic songs of all time. People playing their wettings anniversary.
Speaker 2: In the morning when I rise, you know, no longer
Speaker 2: feeling no, yeah, no longer feeling hypnotized. I find our
Speaker 2: reason had no pride, you know, and they were a lie.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 2: It's like, dude, that kind of says it all right,
Speaker 2: kind of says it all right. But people were talking
Speaker 2: about I used that on our wedding. I said, huh,
Speaker 2: do you remember the first time you heard that? That's
Speaker 2: I'm like, man, I've heard that so many times up
Speaker 2: that I was going, But did you listen to the lyrics,
Speaker 2: take a moment and read them.
Speaker 1: People hear what they want to hear.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know what.
Speaker 1: I was shocked actually in hindsight to find out that
Speaker 1: wasn't even a single, right, No, it never was. Do
Speaker 1: you remember when did that start getting.
Speaker 4: Like so it just I guess album cuts in the
Speaker 4: seventh it was jumped that it was the live record.
Speaker 4: If you're listening to that, that that the record they
Speaker 4: roar when it first comes on. But that came home
Speaker 4: on the Gratitude Reil on.
Speaker 1: The Gratitude Gratitude, and it's the live version you always
Speaker 1: would hear on the radio a lot with yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: But but that was a big song already even before
Speaker 1: the live one came out, because, like you say, when
Speaker 1: the audience.
Speaker 4: It's pandemonium, they were crazy.
Speaker 1: I'm shocked it was never a single off of the
Speaker 1: previous album. Uh, that's the way of the world.
Speaker 3: Shot.
Speaker 1: Thanks for telling the truth all these years later. There
Speaker 1: it is, oh Man, appreciate you guys, Thank you, Thank you.
Speaker 1: Congratulations on the documentary. That's going to be exciting to
Speaker 1: be out in the world and we're excited HBO and
Speaker 1: quest love and thanks for all the years of music.
Speaker 2: Man, Thank you, thank you, Thanks for having us great interview.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 1: Thanks so much to Philip Bailey, Verdin White, and Ralph
Speaker 1: Johnson earth Wing and Fire for joining us on the podcast.
Speaker 1: Be sure to check out their great new documentary on
Speaker 1: HBO now, and be sure to check us out at
Speaker 1: YouTube dot com slash Broken Record Podcast to see our
Speaker 1: video interviews and check the link in the description for
Speaker 1: a playlist of some of our favorite Earthwind and Fire songs,
Speaker 1: and be sure to follow us on Instagram at the
Speaker 1: Broken Record Pod. You can follow us on Twitter at
Speaker 1: Broken Record. Broken Record is produced and edited by Leah
Speaker 1: Rose with marketing help from Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan.
Speaker 1: Our engineer is Ben Tolladay. Broken Record is a production
Speaker 1: of Pushkin Industries. If you love this show and others
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Speaker 1: podcast app Our theme musics by Kenny Beats. I'm justin Richmond.