1 00:00:15,436 --> 00:00:23,316 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Many of the difficult feelings we've talked about over 2 00:00:23,356 --> 00:00:25,756 Speaker 1: the course of this season of the Happiness Lab are 3 00:00:25,796 --> 00:00:29,596 Speaker 1: at the extreme edges of our emotional spectrum. So far, 4 00:00:29,676 --> 00:00:32,916 Speaker 1: we've mostly focused on emotions that feel powerful and profound, 5 00:00:33,396 --> 00:00:36,396 Speaker 1: think the raging fires of anger and the deep sorrow 6 00:00:36,436 --> 00:00:39,236 Speaker 1: that comes with grief. But today I want to address 7 00:00:39,316 --> 00:00:42,796 Speaker 1: an equally problematic feeling that's kind of in the middle. 8 00:00:43,556 --> 00:00:46,916 Speaker 1: It's an emotional state we don't usually talk about, partly 9 00:00:46,956 --> 00:00:50,356 Speaker 1: because we don't have great words for it. But even 10 00:00:50,356 --> 00:00:54,436 Speaker 1: though it's pretty nondescript, this middling, listless feeling is very 11 00:00:54,516 --> 00:00:57,356 Speaker 1: much worth paying attention to. It's a not so nice 12 00:00:57,396 --> 00:01:00,396 Speaker 1: experience that many of us have gone through, especially in 13 00:01:00,436 --> 00:01:04,036 Speaker 1: the past few years, and it's one that's negatively affected 14 00:01:04,076 --> 00:01:07,196 Speaker 1: my own personal happiness, maybe even as much as bigger 15 00:01:07,196 --> 00:01:11,116 Speaker 1: emotions like fear, fury, and regret. You might even be 16 00:01:11,156 --> 00:01:14,076 Speaker 1: in the grip of this yucky feeling right now, So 17 00:01:14,156 --> 00:01:17,916 Speaker 1: ask yourself, honestly, how are you feeling today. If your 18 00:01:17,956 --> 00:01:21,876 Speaker 1: answer is MEH, then you might be experiencing the feeling 19 00:01:21,996 --> 00:01:27,196 Speaker 1: that behavioral scientists refer to as languishing. The experience of 20 00:01:27,276 --> 00:01:32,316 Speaker 1: languishing that lethargic, joyless blah state has always been part 21 00:01:32,356 --> 00:01:35,436 Speaker 1: of the human condition. But these days, in the midst 22 00:01:35,476 --> 00:01:39,236 Speaker 1: of the COVID nineteen pandemic, with lockdowns and restrictions disrupting 23 00:01:39,276 --> 00:01:42,356 Speaker 1: so many of our routines, a scientific interest in the 24 00:01:42,436 --> 00:01:45,916 Speaker 1: importance of languishing has come back into fashion. And one 25 00:01:45,956 --> 00:01:48,516 Speaker 1: of the scholars who's thinking most carefully about this yucky 26 00:01:48,516 --> 00:01:52,276 Speaker 1: emotion happens to be one of my favorite psychologists, podcasters, 27 00:01:52,276 --> 00:01:55,796 Speaker 1: and colleagues, Adam Grant. When Adam's not teaching at war 28 00:01:55,876 --> 00:01:58,596 Speaker 1: in business school, he's writing books like Think Again, The 29 00:01:58,676 --> 00:02:01,316 Speaker 1: Power of Knowing what you don't Know, and Give and 30 00:02:01,316 --> 00:02:04,996 Speaker 1: Take Why helping others drives our success. He's also the 31 00:02:04,996 --> 00:02:08,516 Speaker 1: host of the fantastic ted podcast Work Life with Adam Grant, 32 00:02:08,756 --> 00:02:11,556 Speaker 1: which is about the science of making work not suck. 33 00:02:12,196 --> 00:02:15,196 Speaker 1: Adam decided to address the overlooked emotion of languishing in 34 00:02:15,236 --> 00:02:17,916 Speaker 1: a widely shared New York Times article, but he didn't 35 00:02:17,916 --> 00:02:21,156 Speaker 1: approach the topic as a curious observer, and that's because 36 00:02:21,316 --> 00:02:24,636 Speaker 1: this world renowned expert on human behavior had wound up 37 00:02:24,676 --> 00:02:27,556 Speaker 1: finding himself just as a drift and languishing as the 38 00:02:27,596 --> 00:02:30,236 Speaker 1: rest of us. When I was in college. I was 39 00:02:30,276 --> 00:02:31,956 Speaker 1: really frustrated by the amount of time that I was 40 00:02:31,956 --> 00:02:34,436 Speaker 1: wasting watching TV. So I said a rule that I 41 00:02:34,476 --> 00:02:36,196 Speaker 1: was never going to turn the TV on unless I 42 00:02:36,196 --> 00:02:39,076 Speaker 1: already knew what I wanted to watch, and I stopped 43 00:02:39,076 --> 00:02:41,316 Speaker 1: wasting time. And then over time I had to add 44 00:02:41,356 --> 00:02:43,996 Speaker 1: things to that to don't list. So I said, Okay, 45 00:02:43,996 --> 00:02:46,676 Speaker 1: I don't scroll on social media, and you know, if 46 00:02:46,676 --> 00:02:48,476 Speaker 1: there's literally nothing else I could be doing, like I'm 47 00:02:48,516 --> 00:02:51,236 Speaker 1: about to have a plane takeoff, then maybe I'll scroll. 48 00:02:51,316 --> 00:02:53,636 Speaker 1: But otherwise I just don't want to get sucked in. 49 00:02:54,156 --> 00:02:56,476 Speaker 1: And I'm definitely not going to pick up my phone 50 00:02:56,476 --> 00:02:59,036 Speaker 1: in bed because I would like to get some rest. 51 00:02:59,396 --> 00:03:02,756 Speaker 1: And in twenty twenty, in the early days of the pandemic, 52 00:03:02,796 --> 00:03:05,596 Speaker 1: I found myself breaking all of those rules. I'm normally 53 00:03:05,596 --> 00:03:08,676 Speaker 1: asleep by ten, but I was staying up way past midnight, 54 00:03:08,916 --> 00:03:11,836 Speaker 1: and sometimes I was playing words with friends on my phone. 55 00:03:12,076 --> 00:03:15,196 Speaker 1: Other times I was like, I'd binge a whole season 56 00:03:15,236 --> 00:03:18,076 Speaker 1: of a show that you know, Netflix just recommended to me. 57 00:03:18,316 --> 00:03:21,396 Speaker 1: I'd finish it and then wonder, wait, have I already 58 00:03:21,436 --> 00:03:23,356 Speaker 1: seen this? And I couldn't even remember. I was just 59 00:03:23,436 --> 00:03:25,836 Speaker 1: kind of zoned out. And I would swear when I 60 00:03:25,876 --> 00:03:28,356 Speaker 1: woke up the next morning, Okay, this time, I'm going 61 00:03:28,396 --> 00:03:31,236 Speaker 1: to bed by ten, no more breaking the rules. And 62 00:03:31,516 --> 00:03:34,916 Speaker 1: the pattern just kept repeating. And I study motivation for 63 00:03:34,956 --> 00:03:37,876 Speaker 1: a living. I'm supposed to understand my own behavior. What 64 00:03:37,956 --> 00:03:39,716 Speaker 1: am I doing? And why can I not make any 65 00:03:39,716 --> 00:03:41,956 Speaker 1: sense of it? Yeah? I mean my deep dive in 66 00:03:42,036 --> 00:03:45,476 Speaker 1: early twenty twenty was rewatching season three of Jersey Shore 67 00:03:45,876 --> 00:03:48,356 Speaker 1: and then ending it and then just rewatching the season, 68 00:03:48,396 --> 00:03:50,956 Speaker 1: which like wasn't a particularly good seat, Like it was 69 00:03:50,996 --> 00:03:53,436 Speaker 1: just gross and yucky. But the thing that was most 70 00:03:53,436 --> 00:03:55,916 Speaker 1: frustrating was like, I'm supposed to be an expert on 71 00:03:55,996 --> 00:03:58,436 Speaker 1: behavior change, Like I'm supposed to not be doing things 72 00:03:58,436 --> 00:04:00,676 Speaker 1: that are gross and yucky, and yet you know, finding 73 00:04:00,676 --> 00:04:02,636 Speaker 1: myself doing this too. And so as you were going 74 00:04:02,676 --> 00:04:04,316 Speaker 1: through this year, to talk about some of the emotions 75 00:04:04,316 --> 00:04:05,756 Speaker 1: that come with this, because you know, it's one thing 76 00:04:05,796 --> 00:04:07,596 Speaker 1: to like, you know, binge watch a season if you're 77 00:04:07,636 --> 00:04:09,556 Speaker 1: kind of enjoying it and like blowing off work and 78 00:04:09,596 --> 00:04:11,876 Speaker 1: it's fun, But it's another if it's kind of giving 79 00:04:11,916 --> 00:04:13,996 Speaker 1: you this gross feeling. And so you know, what was 80 00:04:13,996 --> 00:04:16,156 Speaker 1: this feeling like as you were going through this yeah. 81 00:04:16,196 --> 00:04:19,236 Speaker 1: I think at first it was just frustration I was. 82 00:04:19,316 --> 00:04:21,276 Speaker 1: I guess I was mentally beating myself up. I have 83 00:04:21,356 --> 00:04:24,116 Speaker 1: specific plans and goals. I'm not following them, I'm not 84 00:04:24,156 --> 00:04:27,636 Speaker 1: working toward them. This is out of character. Who are you? Who? 85 00:04:28,036 --> 00:04:30,716 Speaker 1: This person who's taken over my brain? And then I 86 00:04:30,756 --> 00:04:35,396 Speaker 1: guess the other thing I felt really early was I 87 00:04:35,436 --> 00:04:39,076 Speaker 1: guess I almost felt like I understood what most people 88 00:04:39,116 --> 00:04:42,476 Speaker 1: experienced when they procrastinate, which is again something I'm normally 89 00:04:42,476 --> 00:04:45,396 Speaker 1: good at avoiding. Right I've been called a procrastinator because 90 00:04:45,436 --> 00:04:48,236 Speaker 1: I love to dive into something months before it's due 91 00:04:48,236 --> 00:04:51,636 Speaker 1: and finish things early. And I just felt like, Okay, 92 00:04:51,836 --> 00:04:54,756 Speaker 1: there's this gap between what I know I should be 93 00:04:54,796 --> 00:04:58,716 Speaker 1: doing and what I want to be doing. And even 94 00:04:58,756 --> 00:05:01,236 Speaker 1: when I don't want to be playing another game of 95 00:05:01,276 --> 00:05:04,356 Speaker 1: words with friends, like I still find myself slipping into it. 96 00:05:04,836 --> 00:05:08,076 Speaker 1: And I think that came along with some guilt. I 97 00:05:08,116 --> 00:05:09,956 Speaker 1: felt like I was letting my self down. I felt 98 00:05:09,996 --> 00:05:11,996 Speaker 1: like I was I was also letting my family down 99 00:05:11,996 --> 00:05:14,196 Speaker 1: because I would wake up tired the next morning, and 100 00:05:14,556 --> 00:05:17,516 Speaker 1: I know my energy affects the people around me, and 101 00:05:17,716 --> 00:05:19,556 Speaker 1: I think those are the early emotions. And then they 102 00:05:19,836 --> 00:05:22,596 Speaker 1: morphed over time as you kind of get stuck in 103 00:05:22,596 --> 00:05:24,556 Speaker 1: this pattern, right, you do kind of what I did, 104 00:05:24,556 --> 00:05:26,756 Speaker 1: which is like, you want to figure out what's going on, right, 105 00:05:26,756 --> 00:05:29,116 Speaker 1: and so in your nerdy scientists like me, so you 106 00:05:29,156 --> 00:05:32,396 Speaker 1: come up with some hypotheses. Right. So your hypothesis number 107 00:05:32,476 --> 00:05:34,596 Speaker 1: one is that you know, maybe you're depressed, right, you 108 00:05:34,596 --> 00:05:37,436 Speaker 1: know maybe if this is you know, seeds of early depression. Right. 109 00:05:37,676 --> 00:05:39,956 Speaker 1: You'll talk about why that hypothesis didn't work, why this 110 00:05:40,076 --> 00:05:43,156 Speaker 1: wasn't exactly depression. I think the main reason was it 111 00:05:43,196 --> 00:05:46,036 Speaker 1: was pretty obvious that I wasn't depressed. Was I still 112 00:05:46,076 --> 00:05:48,396 Speaker 1: had plenty of hope? I was. I was the person 113 00:05:48,436 --> 00:05:51,116 Speaker 1: who was telling everyone, look, we don't know when and 114 00:05:51,156 --> 00:05:53,156 Speaker 1: how this pandemic is going to end, but we know 115 00:05:53,236 --> 00:05:56,036 Speaker 1: it will end. Like they don't go on into perpetuity, 116 00:05:56,196 --> 00:05:58,596 Speaker 1: like we know this is a historical fact. Right. If 117 00:05:58,596 --> 00:06:00,356 Speaker 1: they did, we wouldn't be here. Humans would not have 118 00:06:00,396 --> 00:06:03,436 Speaker 1: survived a prior pandemic, right, And so you know I 119 00:06:03,516 --> 00:06:06,916 Speaker 1: knew that. I guess my ability to stay optimistic was 120 00:06:07,036 --> 00:06:10,396 Speaker 1: a big factor. The other thing was I was very active, right. 121 00:06:10,556 --> 00:06:12,716 Speaker 1: It wasn't like I was sitting around doing nothing all day, 122 00:06:12,756 --> 00:06:14,876 Speaker 1: I was still getting plenty done. I was just below 123 00:06:14,916 --> 00:06:17,716 Speaker 1: my normal level of productivity and wasting a lot more 124 00:06:17,716 --> 00:06:20,036 Speaker 1: time than I normally do. So that loses the second 125 00:06:20,156 --> 00:06:22,316 Speaker 1: hypothesis you might have, right, which is that you know, 126 00:06:22,476 --> 00:06:24,396 Speaker 1: maybe you're just burned out, right, like, maybe you need 127 00:06:24,436 --> 00:06:26,156 Speaker 1: a break and that's why you're, you know, staying up 128 00:06:26,236 --> 00:06:28,396 Speaker 1: late and you know, playing words with friends and stuff. 129 00:06:28,556 --> 00:06:31,196 Speaker 1: You'll talk about why this wasn't exactly burnout either from 130 00:06:31,196 --> 00:06:35,476 Speaker 1: a psychological perspective. Yeah, so psychologists normally to find burnout 131 00:06:35,596 --> 00:06:38,236 Speaker 1: is at least the heart of it is emotional exhaustion, 132 00:06:38,476 --> 00:06:40,796 Speaker 1: the sense that you're so drained by your job that 133 00:06:40,876 --> 00:06:44,276 Speaker 1: you literally have nothing left to give. And I failed 134 00:06:44,316 --> 00:06:46,676 Speaker 1: all those tests of burnout. Did you actually take the 135 00:06:46,716 --> 00:06:49,716 Speaker 1: survey in the middle of this, I did, actually did? No? 136 00:06:49,996 --> 00:06:54,916 Speaker 1: I did, actually embarrassingly. Yeah, you're a much more conscientious 137 00:06:54,916 --> 00:06:57,756 Speaker 1: self assessor than I am. Apparently. No. I just you know, 138 00:06:57,756 --> 00:07:00,636 Speaker 1: the first thing was this was not job related, so 139 00:07:00,796 --> 00:07:03,356 Speaker 1: it didn't fit the definition of burnout. I was actually 140 00:07:03,596 --> 00:07:08,236 Speaker 1: thrilled with my work overall. I just my mental state 141 00:07:08,636 --> 00:07:11,876 Speaker 1: and my mostly nighttime and morning habits weren't what I 142 00:07:11,916 --> 00:07:14,836 Speaker 1: wanted them to be. I also, I had plenty of energy. 143 00:07:15,196 --> 00:07:18,156 Speaker 1: I didn't feel depleted, I didn't feel drained, I didn't 144 00:07:18,196 --> 00:07:21,636 Speaker 1: feel exhausted, except that I wasn't sleeping enough or sleeping well. 145 00:07:21,796 --> 00:07:23,476 Speaker 1: But you know, I was still working out six days 146 00:07:23,476 --> 00:07:25,796 Speaker 1: a week. I was putting the finishing touches on think again, 147 00:07:25,876 --> 00:07:28,836 Speaker 1: and it was I felt the best thing I'd ever written. 148 00:07:29,276 --> 00:07:31,836 Speaker 1: So like, wait a minute, that that does not fit 149 00:07:31,836 --> 00:07:34,316 Speaker 1: with my picture burnout at all. And so you want 150 00:07:34,316 --> 00:07:37,156 Speaker 1: to come up with a different hypothesis, like a different diagnosis, 151 00:07:37,196 --> 00:07:40,156 Speaker 1: And so what was that diagnosis? Well, I decided at 152 00:07:40,196 --> 00:07:43,556 Speaker 1: some point that I must be languishing. It's funny in 153 00:07:43,596 --> 00:07:46,596 Speaker 1: retrospect that it didn't hit me because I remember first 154 00:07:46,636 --> 00:07:50,116 Speaker 1: reading the research in well technically in sociology but also 155 00:07:50,196 --> 00:07:52,676 Speaker 1: in psychology by Corey Keys that put the concept on 156 00:07:52,676 --> 00:07:55,796 Speaker 1: the map almost two decades earlier, and I was so 157 00:07:55,876 --> 00:07:57,956 Speaker 1: intrigued by this idea that there's a whole spectrum of 158 00:07:57,956 --> 00:08:01,516 Speaker 1: well being and then on one extreme you have mental illness, 159 00:08:01,756 --> 00:08:04,596 Speaker 1: which might include depression or anxiety. On the other extreme, 160 00:08:04,676 --> 00:08:07,596 Speaker 1: you have peak mental health, which you would call flourishing 161 00:08:07,676 --> 00:08:10,836 Speaker 1: or thriving. And we don't really talk about the neglected 162 00:08:10,876 --> 00:08:14,636 Speaker 1: middle child, which is languishing. So when I thought about languishing, 163 00:08:15,156 --> 00:08:17,476 Speaker 1: I think the technical definition is that it's a sense 164 00:08:17,516 --> 00:08:20,156 Speaker 1: of emptiness and stagnation, or you might call it unwi. 165 00:08:21,036 --> 00:08:24,316 Speaker 1: But I actually didn't connect the dots until much much later. 166 00:08:24,476 --> 00:08:27,156 Speaker 1: I languished for a few weeks. It's subsided. I didn't 167 00:08:27,156 --> 00:08:29,916 Speaker 1: really know why. And then Tara Parker Pope from The 168 00:08:29,916 --> 00:08:32,556 Speaker 1: New York Times calls me and says, you know, I 169 00:08:32,676 --> 00:08:35,036 Speaker 1: keep hearing people say they're in a pandemic fog and 170 00:08:35,076 --> 00:08:39,196 Speaker 1: they're having trouble concentrating. What is that? And I started 171 00:08:39,236 --> 00:08:41,556 Speaker 1: making a list of all these different hypotheses and none 172 00:08:41,596 --> 00:08:43,356 Speaker 1: of them fit. And all of a sudden I said 173 00:08:43,356 --> 00:08:49,156 Speaker 1: to her, Oh, sounds like languishing. And then it hit me, Oh, 174 00:08:49,196 --> 00:08:52,116 Speaker 1: that's what I was doing. So let's walk through like 175 00:08:52,156 --> 00:08:54,836 Speaker 1: a definition of languishing. It's kind of this in the 176 00:08:54,876 --> 00:08:57,716 Speaker 1: middle between depression and kind of full mental health. But like, 177 00:08:57,756 --> 00:09:00,076 Speaker 1: how would we define it? I think most people would 178 00:09:00,076 --> 00:09:03,676 Speaker 1: say it feels kind of mat or blah or even ah. 179 00:09:04,316 --> 00:09:07,716 Speaker 1: I love that they're all monosyllabic words, right, It's the 180 00:09:07,756 --> 00:09:10,876 Speaker 1: quintessential picture of language to say I can't even pull 181 00:09:10,916 --> 00:09:14,156 Speaker 1: off a second syllable. You know, in psychology we would 182 00:09:14,156 --> 00:09:18,956 Speaker 1: define it as as a sense of probably aimlessness and joylessness. 183 00:09:19,316 --> 00:09:21,916 Speaker 1: Its Corey Keys would would describe it. It's not the 184 00:09:21,956 --> 00:09:24,476 Speaker 1: presence of mental illness, it's the absence of mental health. 185 00:09:24,876 --> 00:09:26,756 Speaker 1: And so, you know, I guess another way to think 186 00:09:26,796 --> 00:09:30,076 Speaker 1: about that is to quote Harvey Danger, I'm not sick, 187 00:09:30,156 --> 00:09:33,396 Speaker 1: but I'm not well. You're just missing well being. And 188 00:09:33,516 --> 00:09:35,836 Speaker 1: it's funny because you know, there's so much talk of 189 00:09:35,996 --> 00:09:38,916 Speaker 1: other mental health issues like depression and anxiety, but like 190 00:09:39,116 --> 00:09:41,996 Speaker 1: languishing is surprisingly less well known and given you know 191 00:09:42,036 --> 00:09:44,716 Speaker 1: in some ways how common it was, especially during twenty twenty. 192 00:09:44,716 --> 00:09:46,476 Speaker 1: But I feel like in general, you know, so, what's 193 00:09:46,516 --> 00:09:48,196 Speaker 1: the history of why this just doesn't come to the 194 00:09:48,236 --> 00:09:50,516 Speaker 1: force so much. I've been wondering the same thing. I'm 195 00:09:50,556 --> 00:09:52,436 Speaker 1: not sure we have a clear answer on it. I 196 00:09:52,436 --> 00:09:55,476 Speaker 1: have a couple of hunches. One is that it's just 197 00:09:55,596 --> 00:09:59,076 Speaker 1: much more invisible in our daily experiences. Right. If you 198 00:09:59,116 --> 00:10:03,516 Speaker 1: get depressed, you almost can't notice anything else. If you're anxious, 199 00:10:03,556 --> 00:10:07,036 Speaker 1: the cycles of rumination start to kick in. You're worrying constantly, 200 00:10:07,076 --> 00:10:10,436 Speaker 1: you feel that intensely. But languishing is almost an absence 201 00:10:10,476 --> 00:10:12,756 Speaker 1: of emotion, and so I think that makes it harder 202 00:10:12,756 --> 00:10:15,756 Speaker 1: to see. My other hunch is it's not a disease 203 00:10:15,796 --> 00:10:19,076 Speaker 1: or a disorder. It's just kind of a lingering emotional state. 204 00:10:19,396 --> 00:10:22,636 Speaker 1: It doesn't have the same urgency or intensity that we 205 00:10:22,636 --> 00:10:27,076 Speaker 1: would associate with more serious mental challenges. But there is 206 00:10:27,076 --> 00:10:29,716 Speaker 1: evidence for the consequences of languishing, so you know, talk 207 00:10:29,716 --> 00:10:32,156 Speaker 1: about the consequences for our productivity but also for our 208 00:10:32,156 --> 00:10:35,756 Speaker 1: future mental health. Yeah, this is all really spearheaded by 209 00:10:35,796 --> 00:10:38,956 Speaker 1: Corey Keys. So in the Keys research, we see that 210 00:10:38,956 --> 00:10:40,836 Speaker 1: people are about three times more likely to cut back 211 00:10:40,876 --> 00:10:43,196 Speaker 1: on work when they're languishing. They become more distracted, they 212 00:10:43,236 --> 00:10:46,316 Speaker 1: have trouble focusing. We also see that if you wanted 213 00:10:46,356 --> 00:10:48,876 Speaker 1: to predict who's going to be depressed or anxious in 214 00:10:48,876 --> 00:10:51,636 Speaker 1: the next decade, it is not the people who are 215 00:10:51,676 --> 00:10:54,356 Speaker 1: depressed and anxious today. It's actually the people who are 216 00:10:54,396 --> 00:10:56,876 Speaker 1: languishing right now who are at the greatest risk. And 217 00:10:56,916 --> 00:10:59,796 Speaker 1: I think that's because you know, when you're depressed or anxious, 218 00:11:00,356 --> 00:11:02,796 Speaker 1: you feel like you have to do something eventually right, 219 00:11:02,876 --> 00:11:05,396 Speaker 1: either you seek help or you try to help yourself, 220 00:11:05,396 --> 00:11:07,596 Speaker 1: Whereas when you're languishing, you just kind of sit there 221 00:11:07,636 --> 00:11:09,836 Speaker 1: with it. You might be oblivious to it until it 222 00:11:09,876 --> 00:11:13,796 Speaker 1: develops into something much more serious. When I first read 223 00:11:13,796 --> 00:11:16,276 Speaker 1: Adam's viral New York Times article, it was like a 224 00:11:16,276 --> 00:11:18,836 Speaker 1: slap in the face, the good kind of a slap 225 00:11:18,876 --> 00:11:21,196 Speaker 1: in the face. It made me realize that I'd been 226 00:11:21,236 --> 00:11:25,476 Speaker 1: ignoring my own meth feeling of languishing for months. Initially, 227 00:11:25,596 --> 00:11:28,036 Speaker 1: I figured the solution would be defined ways to force 228 00:11:28,116 --> 00:11:31,156 Speaker 1: myself back into becoming more engaged at work. But it 229 00:11:31,196 --> 00:11:33,476 Speaker 1: turns out that this just get back to its strategy 230 00:11:33,996 --> 00:11:37,356 Speaker 1: is more counterproductive than you might expect. When we get 231 00:11:37,356 --> 00:11:39,316 Speaker 1: back from the break, I'll talk to Adam about how 232 00:11:39,316 --> 00:11:42,556 Speaker 1: we can better understand this chronic state of feeling blah 233 00:11:42,636 --> 00:11:45,196 Speaker 1: and what we can really do to stop it. The 234 00:11:45,236 --> 00:12:00,676 Speaker 1: Happiness Lab will be right back. Adam Grant's work is 235 00:12:00,716 --> 00:12:03,356 Speaker 1: already familiar to millions of fans through his books and 236 00:12:03,436 --> 00:12:06,676 Speaker 1: podcast episodes, but when he started to chronicle his own 237 00:12:06,756 --> 00:12:09,916 Speaker 1: brush with languishing, he struck a chord with people across 238 00:12:09,996 --> 00:12:13,636 Speaker 1: the entire world and from every walk of life. His 239 00:12:13,756 --> 00:12:16,916 Speaker 1: New York Times piece about languishing was talked about everywhere, 240 00:12:17,276 --> 00:12:20,276 Speaker 1: which kind of fits with the articles subheading that languishing 241 00:12:20,436 --> 00:12:23,356 Speaker 1: maybe the dominant emotion of twenty twenty one. So it 242 00:12:23,476 --> 00:12:26,356 Speaker 1: was adam surprised that an article that literally has bleh 243 00:12:26,396 --> 00:12:29,156 Speaker 1: in the title took off like a rocket. Most of 244 00:12:29,196 --> 00:12:31,156 Speaker 1: my writing has been a random walk in the sense that, 245 00:12:31,556 --> 00:12:34,276 Speaker 1: you know, sometimes I'm really confident that an article is 246 00:12:34,276 --> 00:12:36,596 Speaker 1: going to strike a chord and it doesn't, and other 247 00:12:36,636 --> 00:12:38,516 Speaker 1: times I'm like, oh, this is kind of interesting and 248 00:12:38,556 --> 00:12:41,996 Speaker 1: people really respond to it. This one, I actually had 249 00:12:41,996 --> 00:12:44,676 Speaker 1: a really strong sense that it was going to resonate, 250 00:12:44,716 --> 00:12:47,556 Speaker 1: and I had it in part because I got to 251 00:12:47,596 --> 00:12:50,996 Speaker 1: experience it right when I was having that conversation with Tara. 252 00:12:51,116 --> 00:12:53,116 Speaker 1: It was like a light bulb went off. And I 253 00:12:53,156 --> 00:12:55,476 Speaker 1: don't think I've had that many Eureka moments in my career, 254 00:12:55,516 --> 00:12:57,756 Speaker 1: but this was one of them. Like, Okay, at this point, 255 00:12:57,796 --> 00:13:00,116 Speaker 1: I've been through a full year of the pandemic. I 256 00:13:00,156 --> 00:13:03,036 Speaker 1: had languished myself, I had watched pretty much everyone I 257 00:13:03,116 --> 00:13:05,716 Speaker 1: knew languish, and for a whole year I didn't figure 258 00:13:05,716 --> 00:13:08,556 Speaker 1: it out. And so this was like a WHOA, Okay, 259 00:13:08,596 --> 00:13:11,356 Speaker 1: I guess that this is a really common experience. People 260 00:13:11,356 --> 00:13:15,236 Speaker 1: are struggling to label it understand it makes sense of 261 00:13:15,276 --> 00:13:17,716 Speaker 1: it do something about it. I have something to stay here, 262 00:13:17,876 --> 00:13:21,076 Speaker 1: and so I basically cleared my calendar when I got 263 00:13:21,116 --> 00:13:22,956 Speaker 1: off the phone with her and started writing. You know 264 00:13:22,996 --> 00:13:25,636 Speaker 1: what was the response like, because in my Twitter feed 265 00:13:25,676 --> 00:13:28,316 Speaker 1: at least, it was pretty incredible. For like months after 266 00:13:28,316 --> 00:13:32,236 Speaker 1: the article came out, it was as close as I've 267 00:13:32,236 --> 00:13:34,356 Speaker 1: ever come to something going viral. I don't know what 268 00:13:34,436 --> 00:13:37,476 Speaker 1: the bar is on that, but I quickly got an 269 00:13:37,476 --> 00:13:39,396 Speaker 1: email from The Times that in the first week or 270 00:13:39,436 --> 00:13:41,876 Speaker 1: two it had been read I don't know, five or 271 00:13:41,916 --> 00:13:44,996 Speaker 1: six million times. It was all over social media. I 272 00:13:45,036 --> 00:13:48,156 Speaker 1: was seeing celebrities share it. Then Prince Harry talked about 273 00:13:48,196 --> 00:13:51,476 Speaker 1: it in a podcast. It was pretty much everywhere. My 274 00:13:51,516 --> 00:13:54,276 Speaker 1: favorite moments were when I had a former student or 275 00:13:54,316 --> 00:13:57,356 Speaker 1: a friend or a colleague reach out and say, hey, 276 00:13:57,596 --> 00:13:59,876 Speaker 1: nine people have sent me this article and they don't 277 00:13:59,916 --> 00:14:02,556 Speaker 1: even know that I know you. So it was exciting. 278 00:14:02,836 --> 00:14:04,596 Speaker 1: It was also there was a part of me that 279 00:14:04,716 --> 00:14:07,236 Speaker 1: was a little disappointed by the reaction in what sense, 280 00:14:07,316 --> 00:14:10,036 Speaker 1: like why the disappointment. What was disappointing to me was 281 00:14:10,316 --> 00:14:12,156 Speaker 1: when I put an idea in a body of evidence 282 00:14:12,156 --> 00:14:14,236 Speaker 1: sound into the worlds. I want to learn something new 283 00:14:14,276 --> 00:14:17,796 Speaker 1: from the reactions, and normally what happens is when something 284 00:14:17,876 --> 00:14:21,196 Speaker 1: attracts attention, it sparks a bunch of dialogue. It leads 285 00:14:21,236 --> 00:14:23,636 Speaker 1: to you know, for me, I get to do some rethinking. 286 00:14:23,716 --> 00:14:26,036 Speaker 1: I questioned some of my assumptions, I changed some of 287 00:14:26,076 --> 00:14:29,756 Speaker 1: my views, I encounter new evidence. And it also often, 288 00:14:30,076 --> 00:14:32,076 Speaker 1: I guess, when it goes well to motivate other people 289 00:14:32,356 --> 00:14:34,956 Speaker 1: to shift some of their thoughts or decisions or actions. 290 00:14:35,356 --> 00:14:38,116 Speaker 1: And I felt like a reaction to languishing was just 291 00:14:38,396 --> 00:14:41,476 Speaker 1: over and over. It was one note, it was yep, 292 00:14:41,756 --> 00:14:45,276 Speaker 1: I'm languishing, this is me, I'm languishing. We're all languishing, 293 00:14:45,476 --> 00:14:47,316 Speaker 1: and it just kept repeating over and over again. And 294 00:14:47,396 --> 00:14:49,036 Speaker 1: I guess I want I wanted it to be more 295 00:14:49,036 --> 00:14:53,076 Speaker 1: generative in starting a conversation that I hadn't thought of before, 296 00:14:53,196 --> 00:14:56,076 Speaker 1: as opposed to just validating what people were already feeling 297 00:14:56,236 --> 00:14:58,596 Speaker 1: and giving them a vocabularity to describe it. And I realized, 298 00:14:58,636 --> 00:15:01,276 Speaker 1: that's a ridiculous expectation. And this is probably the most 299 00:15:01,356 --> 00:15:03,676 Speaker 1: useful thing that I could have written, at least from 300 00:15:03,756 --> 00:15:05,876 Speaker 1: you know, what we do and what I know. But 301 00:15:05,956 --> 00:15:08,356 Speaker 1: there were definitely exceptions to this, and my favorite one 302 00:15:08,556 --> 00:15:11,436 Speaker 1: was the critique that Austin Cleon wrote. So Austin as 303 00:15:11,436 --> 00:15:14,796 Speaker 1: an artist, and he wrote this great critique where he 304 00:15:14,836 --> 00:15:17,796 Speaker 1: said I hated the term languishing. The moment I saw it, 305 00:15:18,756 --> 00:15:21,276 Speaker 1: I was like, yes, tell me more, what did you 306 00:15:21,356 --> 00:15:23,556 Speaker 1: hate about it? I read a little further and he says, 307 00:15:24,076 --> 00:15:27,156 Speaker 1: I'm not languishing. I recognize some of the symptoms you're describing, 308 00:15:27,196 --> 00:15:31,796 Speaker 1: but I'm dormant, like a volcano or like a plant 309 00:15:31,796 --> 00:15:34,356 Speaker 1: in the dead of winter. And he said, it is 310 00:15:34,516 --> 00:15:37,556 Speaker 1: ridiculous to expect that, when the world is standing still, 311 00:15:38,156 --> 00:15:40,956 Speaker 1: that I'm going to flourish, like as a plant. Like 312 00:15:41,036 --> 00:15:42,916 Speaker 1: you don't try to flourish. You don't try to thrive 313 00:15:43,076 --> 00:15:46,076 Speaker 1: in the dead of winter. You wait for spring. And 314 00:15:46,116 --> 00:15:48,196 Speaker 1: he went on to say that, you know, even though 315 00:15:48,196 --> 00:15:50,996 Speaker 1: I'm dormant right now, quiet things are happening inside me. 316 00:15:51,596 --> 00:15:53,916 Speaker 1: And I thought that was such a profound alternative. That 317 00:15:53,956 --> 00:15:55,636 Speaker 1: was the kind of dialogue that I wanted to start 318 00:15:55,676 --> 00:15:58,636 Speaker 1: with languishing. And I think he was right. I don't 319 00:15:58,636 --> 00:16:02,836 Speaker 1: think that people should feel pressure to immediately say, Okay, 320 00:16:02,996 --> 00:16:04,956 Speaker 1: I'm languishing, Now what do I do to get out 321 00:16:04,956 --> 00:16:06,916 Speaker 1: of it? I don't think there's anything wrong with sitting 322 00:16:06,916 --> 00:16:08,436 Speaker 1: with it for a few days or a few weeks, 323 00:16:08,676 --> 00:16:11,356 Speaker 1: I think it's reasonable to say, if the world really 324 00:16:11,436 --> 00:16:13,716 Speaker 1: is stagnating, I don't want to put unrealistic pressure on 325 00:16:13,756 --> 00:16:16,956 Speaker 1: myself to be flourishing. At the same time, I worried 326 00:16:16,996 --> 00:16:18,996 Speaker 1: that Austin was creating a little bit of a self 327 00:16:18,996 --> 00:16:22,436 Speaker 1: fulfilling prophecy and saying, well, I'm not capable of flourishing 328 00:16:22,476 --> 00:16:25,156 Speaker 1: in difficult circumstances, and therefore I'm not going to bother 329 00:16:25,236 --> 00:16:26,916 Speaker 1: to try. And so I think this is so powerful 330 00:16:26,916 --> 00:16:29,076 Speaker 1: because I think, you know, it raises this question of 331 00:16:29,196 --> 00:16:31,996 Speaker 1: where languishing comes from in the first place, and you know, 332 00:16:32,276 --> 00:16:33,876 Speaker 1: part of I think what he's saying is that, you know, 333 00:16:33,996 --> 00:16:37,156 Speaker 1: that's our unrealistic expectations about how much we're going to 334 00:16:37,196 --> 00:16:39,236 Speaker 1: be able to work in the context of a global pandemic, 335 00:16:39,316 --> 00:16:40,556 Speaker 1: or how much we're going to be able to work 336 00:16:40,556 --> 00:16:42,636 Speaker 1: when things are tough. But I think that's one of 337 00:16:42,676 --> 00:16:44,676 Speaker 1: the reasons I think the article resonated so much is 338 00:16:44,716 --> 00:16:47,636 Speaker 1: that you gave people a term to describe what was 339 00:16:47,676 --> 00:16:50,356 Speaker 1: going on. Like, part of the languishing is the frustration, 340 00:16:50,436 --> 00:16:52,476 Speaker 1: It is the guilt, and we're like, no, no, no, 341 00:16:52,476 --> 00:16:54,996 Speaker 1: this isn't like you doing something bad or you messing up. 342 00:16:55,236 --> 00:16:57,996 Speaker 1: This is just this thing that happens. It's languishing, it's fine. 343 00:16:58,356 --> 00:17:00,396 Speaker 1: And so you know, talk about what we know psychologically 344 00:17:00,436 --> 00:17:02,796 Speaker 1: about just like giving a term for something and how 345 00:17:02,836 --> 00:17:05,516 Speaker 1: powerful that can be for kind of understanding the phenomena 346 00:17:05,556 --> 00:17:07,796 Speaker 1: of like taking next steps. So I think my favorite 347 00:17:07,796 --> 00:17:10,796 Speaker 1: demonstration of the power of naming emotions would be the 348 00:17:11,116 --> 00:17:14,356 Speaker 1: Matthew Lieberman research, which you know well right on, dealing 349 00:17:14,436 --> 00:17:18,196 Speaker 1: with phobia of spiders in particular, right, So you basically 350 00:17:18,516 --> 00:17:21,516 Speaker 1: track whether people overcome their fear of spiders by looking 351 00:17:21,516 --> 00:17:23,756 Speaker 1: at whether they're willing to let a spider approach them 352 00:17:23,756 --> 00:17:26,316 Speaker 1: and whether they show a physiological response when that happens. 353 00:17:26,636 --> 00:17:29,236 Speaker 1: And I thought what was going to work best was 354 00:17:29,396 --> 00:17:32,756 Speaker 1: either some level of distraction or some kind of reappraisal 355 00:17:32,836 --> 00:17:35,676 Speaker 1: to say, Okay, the spider is actually harmless, it can't 356 00:17:35,716 --> 00:17:38,076 Speaker 1: hurt me. You know. Maybe we do that through flooding 357 00:17:38,076 --> 00:17:39,956 Speaker 1: and we just dropped the spider in your lap and 358 00:17:39,956 --> 00:17:42,676 Speaker 1: then you realize this is okay. Maybe we take more 359 00:17:42,676 --> 00:17:46,156 Speaker 1: of a systematic desensitization approach to exposure therapy and say, 360 00:17:46,196 --> 00:17:47,836 Speaker 1: all right, first we're gonna have you draw a spider, 361 00:17:47,996 --> 00:17:49,836 Speaker 1: and then we're going to put a spider halfway across 362 00:17:49,876 --> 00:17:51,556 Speaker 1: the room in a cage, and then slowly we'll give 363 00:17:51,596 --> 00:17:54,356 Speaker 1: you the chance to approach. And none of those steps, 364 00:17:54,916 --> 00:17:58,076 Speaker 1: to my recollection of the data, were as powerful as 365 00:17:58,116 --> 00:18:00,996 Speaker 1: just having people label their fear. When they said I'm 366 00:18:01,036 --> 00:18:03,636 Speaker 1: afraid of spiders, all of a sudden, I think it 367 00:18:03,676 --> 00:18:08,116 Speaker 1: gave them some power over their emotions and they realize, well, okay, 368 00:18:08,356 --> 00:18:11,036 Speaker 1: I can't con troll the fact that I felt that 369 00:18:11,076 --> 00:18:14,436 Speaker 1: physiological reaction, but I can definitely make choices about how 370 00:18:14,476 --> 00:18:16,756 Speaker 1: I want to respond to it. And so when I 371 00:18:16,796 --> 00:18:19,556 Speaker 1: hear psychologists say name it to tame it, I think 372 00:18:19,996 --> 00:18:23,676 Speaker 1: maybe something similar happened with languishing, that when you recognize 373 00:18:23,676 --> 00:18:25,836 Speaker 1: that you were languishing, it shifts the way that you 374 00:18:25,996 --> 00:18:28,796 Speaker 1: process the pandemic. One of the interesting things that I 375 00:18:28,836 --> 00:18:30,476 Speaker 1: caught myself doing, which I also saw a lot of 376 00:18:30,476 --> 00:18:32,996 Speaker 1: people do, was say, well, I don't know what to do. 377 00:18:33,076 --> 00:18:35,596 Speaker 1: I've never been through a pandemic before. And it's true, 378 00:18:35,636 --> 00:18:38,236 Speaker 1: unless you're one hundred three years old, you probably have 379 00:18:38,396 --> 00:18:40,996 Speaker 1: not survived a pandemic. And even then, I'm guessing you 380 00:18:41,036 --> 00:18:43,436 Speaker 1: don't remember it. Very well, and I think that framing 381 00:18:43,476 --> 00:18:46,156 Speaker 1: of it was extremely unhelpful because it meant that people 382 00:18:46,196 --> 00:18:49,596 Speaker 1: were having a completely foreign experience and there was nothing 383 00:18:49,596 --> 00:18:52,076 Speaker 1: to lean on or learn from. Whereas when people were 384 00:18:52,076 --> 00:18:56,196 Speaker 1: able to pinpoint the emotional state, they could say, I'm languishing. Well, 385 00:18:56,316 --> 00:18:59,156 Speaker 1: I've languished before, Like there was definitely a time in 386 00:18:59,236 --> 00:19:01,196 Speaker 1: college where you know, I had a bad breakup and 387 00:19:01,196 --> 00:19:03,676 Speaker 1: I got over the depression, but I still felt sort 388 00:19:03,716 --> 00:19:05,716 Speaker 1: of blah. If you've ever said you had the case 389 00:19:05,756 --> 00:19:08,276 Speaker 1: of the Mondays at work head quoted office space, right, 390 00:19:08,356 --> 00:19:11,236 Speaker 1: you are ling on Monday. And once you recognize that 391 00:19:11,236 --> 00:19:14,316 Speaker 1: you've languished before, you can learn lessons from your own 392 00:19:14,356 --> 00:19:17,396 Speaker 1: past resilience. You can look at those times and say, well, 393 00:19:17,436 --> 00:19:19,636 Speaker 1: what are some of the choices and behavior patterns that 394 00:19:19,676 --> 00:19:21,636 Speaker 1: got me out of it? And then maybe you're in 395 00:19:21,636 --> 00:19:23,956 Speaker 1: a better position to learn how to stop languishing and 396 00:19:23,956 --> 00:19:25,796 Speaker 1: you don't have to get advice from someone else, right, 397 00:19:25,836 --> 00:19:28,636 Speaker 1: you can actually maybe gain some wisdom from your own past. 398 00:19:28,996 --> 00:19:30,956 Speaker 1: And I think that's part of the power of labeling 399 00:19:30,956 --> 00:19:33,596 Speaker 1: the emotion is it lets you realize this is in 400 00:19:33,596 --> 00:19:37,756 Speaker 1: some ways a unique experience, but the psychological state is 401 00:19:37,796 --> 00:19:41,876 Speaker 1: familiar and that lends itself to some changes. The other thing, 402 00:19:41,916 --> 00:19:44,036 Speaker 1: I think the power of giving it a name is 403 00:19:44,036 --> 00:19:46,756 Speaker 1: that you can kind of figure out the science that 404 00:19:46,796 --> 00:19:48,596 Speaker 1: goes with it, right, you know. I think when I'm 405 00:19:48,636 --> 00:19:51,396 Speaker 1: experiencing anxiety, it's sometimes really helpful for me to realize 406 00:19:51,556 --> 00:19:53,436 Speaker 1: this is just a fight or flight response. My heart 407 00:19:53,516 --> 00:19:56,196 Speaker 1: is reacting because I know my sympathetic nervous system, or like, 408 00:19:56,236 --> 00:19:58,236 Speaker 1: I can throw some biology on there. And I think 409 00:19:58,236 --> 00:20:00,996 Speaker 1: when you think about languishing, you realize that this is 410 00:20:01,076 --> 00:20:04,076 Speaker 1: an emotional state in which you don't really realize how 411 00:20:04,116 --> 00:20:06,676 Speaker 1: bad the state is. Right, because you can't experience the 412 00:20:06,796 --> 00:20:09,356 Speaker 1: emotions in the same way, you don't get the it's 413 00:20:09,356 --> 00:20:11,236 Speaker 1: so bad, and that's one of the reasons you don't 414 00:20:11,236 --> 00:20:13,316 Speaker 1: like take action on it. Like for me, that was 415 00:20:13,356 --> 00:20:15,756 Speaker 1: really powerful, Oh, this is a feature of what I'm 416 00:20:15,796 --> 00:20:17,676 Speaker 1: going through is I don't really get how bad it 417 00:20:17,756 --> 00:20:20,036 Speaker 1: is in this state, and therefore I'm not doing anything 418 00:20:20,076 --> 00:20:22,156 Speaker 1: about it. Was that kind of powerful for you too, 419 00:20:22,156 --> 00:20:24,716 Speaker 1: in terms of your own frustration with languaging, Yeah, I'd 420 00:20:24,756 --> 00:20:26,956 Speaker 1: like to do it as rationally as you just described it. 421 00:20:28,356 --> 00:20:30,676 Speaker 1: I don't think the neuroscience is there yet for languishing 422 00:20:30,836 --> 00:20:33,556 Speaker 1: right to describe exactly what's happening, like, if I had 423 00:20:33,596 --> 00:20:36,356 Speaker 1: to guess, I would say that, you know, there's maybe 424 00:20:36,396 --> 00:20:39,756 Speaker 1: a shortage of dopamine and we're not getting the reward 425 00:20:39,796 --> 00:20:43,476 Speaker 1: response that we normally experience, either from feeling productive or 426 00:20:43,596 --> 00:20:46,236 Speaker 1: from doing something fun and enjoyable. And so it's the 427 00:20:46,276 --> 00:20:50,116 Speaker 1: absence of those highs the rushes that probably I would 428 00:20:50,156 --> 00:20:52,796 Speaker 1: want to describe. But I think I did something similar, 429 00:20:52,796 --> 00:20:55,796 Speaker 1: which is to say, you know, look him back at least, Okay, 430 00:20:56,116 --> 00:20:59,076 Speaker 1: those are symptoms of languishing. That's a real thing. There's 431 00:20:59,116 --> 00:21:02,396 Speaker 1: nothing wrong with me, there's something wrong in my circumstances. 432 00:21:02,756 --> 00:21:04,676 Speaker 1: And I think that made it much easier to find 433 00:21:04,716 --> 00:21:06,716 Speaker 1: some self compassion. And then the next time I found 434 00:21:06,756 --> 00:21:10,756 Speaker 1: myself languishing, oh okay, there done that. I can probably 435 00:21:10,756 --> 00:21:12,676 Speaker 1: get through it. So what did you do were you 436 00:21:12,716 --> 00:21:16,236 Speaker 1: going through this Jersey Shore situation when you read my article? 437 00:21:16,276 --> 00:21:18,916 Speaker 1: How did the timing play at there was you know, 438 00:21:19,036 --> 00:21:21,076 Speaker 1: like everything in the pandemic, there was kind of more 439 00:21:21,156 --> 00:21:23,956 Speaker 1: Jersey Shore time than others. And it wasn't just Jersey Shore. 440 00:21:24,036 --> 00:21:26,796 Speaker 1: Sometimes it was like hoarders. I think it was reading 441 00:21:26,836 --> 00:21:29,316 Speaker 1: the article and also just realizing that because this is 442 00:21:29,316 --> 00:21:32,236 Speaker 1: a thing with a name, I can take action on it, right, Like, 443 00:21:32,276 --> 00:21:33,916 Speaker 1: there's things I can do to kind of feel better, 444 00:21:34,036 --> 00:21:35,796 Speaker 1: you know. For me, it was really just like moving 445 00:21:35,796 --> 00:21:39,156 Speaker 1: my body, doing some yoga, being proactive about picking things 446 00:21:39,156 --> 00:21:40,876 Speaker 1: that I know when I'm in a languishing state is 447 00:21:40,876 --> 00:21:42,676 Speaker 1: going to help, and so that was kind of powerful 448 00:21:42,756 --> 00:21:44,716 Speaker 1: for me. But another was kind of what you mentioned, 449 00:21:44,716 --> 00:21:45,996 Speaker 1: which is just this idea that when you have a 450 00:21:46,036 --> 00:21:47,716 Speaker 1: label and when you know what it is, you can 451 00:21:47,796 --> 00:21:50,756 Speaker 1: give yourself some self compassion, right, And it especially being 452 00:21:50,796 --> 00:21:53,116 Speaker 1: you know, so called happiness expert these days, you know, 453 00:21:53,196 --> 00:21:55,356 Speaker 1: it's hard to admit that you're like going through some 454 00:21:55,396 --> 00:21:57,356 Speaker 1: tough times and it's not just me, right, Like, this 455 00:21:57,436 --> 00:21:59,996 Speaker 1: is the problem of what's called toxic positivity. Right. It 456 00:22:00,076 --> 00:22:02,116 Speaker 1: was to talk about toxic positivity and why it makes 457 00:22:02,156 --> 00:22:05,316 Speaker 1: it hard to talk specifically about an emotion like languishing. Well, 458 00:22:05,356 --> 00:22:07,156 Speaker 1: I think I think the way that I experienced this 459 00:22:08,276 --> 00:22:11,076 Speaker 1: during the pandemic, once the acute phase was over and 460 00:22:11,196 --> 00:22:13,516 Speaker 1: we were kind of into the chronic Okay, you know, 461 00:22:13,596 --> 00:22:16,796 Speaker 1: whatever extreme fear or grief most people were feeling, some 462 00:22:16,836 --> 00:22:20,076 Speaker 1: of that had subsided and now stragging on this endless 463 00:22:20,116 --> 00:22:23,316 Speaker 1: groundhog day. I felt like what happened was, as I 464 00:22:23,316 --> 00:22:26,516 Speaker 1: started seeing people outdoors again, they would say how are you, 465 00:22:26,876 --> 00:22:30,916 Speaker 1: and I'd say pretty good. I'd almost get judged like 466 00:22:31,036 --> 00:22:33,196 Speaker 1: what do you what do you mean? Like why are 467 00:22:33,236 --> 00:22:37,156 Speaker 1: you not great or awesome? And that's toxic positivity, right, 468 00:22:37,156 --> 00:22:41,036 Speaker 1: It's it's the pressure to be optimistic and upbeat and 469 00:22:41,396 --> 00:22:44,436 Speaker 1: enthusiastic at all times, no matter what's going on in 470 00:22:44,436 --> 00:22:46,876 Speaker 1: your life. And that doesn't exist in every culture, as 471 00:22:46,916 --> 00:22:49,476 Speaker 1: you know, right, It's it's much easier. For example, if 472 00:22:49,516 --> 00:22:52,116 Speaker 1: you live in Russia, the actual expected response to how 473 00:22:52,116 --> 00:22:55,276 Speaker 1: are you, and the research I've read is normal, literally normal, 474 00:22:55,596 --> 00:22:58,356 Speaker 1: and if you say you're great, people will think you're 475 00:22:58,356 --> 00:23:01,676 Speaker 1: a Pollyanna or that you're up to something sneaky. So, 476 00:23:01,916 --> 00:23:05,196 Speaker 1: you know, here and obviously in the land of optimism, 477 00:23:05,236 --> 00:23:08,436 Speaker 1: we live the American dream and that means we're expected 478 00:23:08,476 --> 00:23:10,516 Speaker 1: to be exuber and I think that's really hard. I 479 00:23:10,516 --> 00:23:12,476 Speaker 1: think that made it really difficult for people to say, 480 00:23:12,836 --> 00:23:16,596 Speaker 1: you know, honestly kind of ah. And I guess that 481 00:23:16,876 --> 00:23:18,556 Speaker 1: was one of the reasons I got excited about writing 482 00:23:18,556 --> 00:23:20,996 Speaker 1: this article is I wanted people to have the freedom 483 00:23:21,076 --> 00:23:24,796 Speaker 1: to say you know, honestly, I'm kind of languishing right now, or, 484 00:23:24,836 --> 00:23:28,156 Speaker 1: as they'd be more likely to say it, kind of, 485 00:23:28,756 --> 00:23:30,636 Speaker 1: I guess I'm languishing. One of the reasons I really 486 00:23:30,636 --> 00:23:32,316 Speaker 1: want to interview you for this podcast, and one of 487 00:23:32,396 --> 00:23:34,836 Speaker 1: my favorite things about the article is that you are 488 00:23:34,876 --> 00:23:36,756 Speaker 1: a good example because you made it out like you 489 00:23:36,876 --> 00:23:39,676 Speaker 1: rescued yourself. And in your article you give people some 490 00:23:39,756 --> 00:23:41,636 Speaker 1: really great tips for kind of what you can do 491 00:23:41,676 --> 00:23:43,716 Speaker 1: to solve things. And so when we get back from 492 00:23:43,716 --> 00:23:45,636 Speaker 1: the break, we're going to hear some of those solutions. 493 00:23:45,636 --> 00:23:48,316 Speaker 1: But just a quick teaser. Adam's solution involved a princess, 494 00:23:48,316 --> 00:23:50,236 Speaker 1: a man in a mustache, and a red hat. We'll 495 00:23:50,276 --> 00:23:52,996 Speaker 1: hear more about this curious solution when the Happiness Lab 496 00:23:53,036 --> 00:24:04,956 Speaker 1: returns in a moment. I love that when I was 497 00:24:04,956 --> 00:24:07,156 Speaker 1: a drift in my own state of languishing, I made 498 00:24:07,156 --> 00:24:10,436 Speaker 1: all the classic mistakes. I'd try to push myself with 499 00:24:10,436 --> 00:24:13,396 Speaker 1: woollpower alone to do tasks that I had little motivation 500 00:24:13,436 --> 00:24:16,116 Speaker 1: to complete. I also get sucked into a ton of 501 00:24:16,156 --> 00:24:19,556 Speaker 1: mindless distractions like junk TV that didn't really nourish me. 502 00:24:20,436 --> 00:24:24,356 Speaker 1: Psychologist Adam Grant, however, figured out a better solution. He 503 00:24:24,436 --> 00:24:28,236 Speaker 1: was rescued from languishing by a pair of plumbers, Mario 504 00:24:28,476 --> 00:24:33,116 Speaker 1: and Luigi. All Right, so summer twenty twenty, I think 505 00:24:33,156 --> 00:24:36,116 Speaker 1: I guess I'm at peak languishing, although peak feels like 506 00:24:36,156 --> 00:24:41,036 Speaker 1: the wrong term. Yes, like an ultimate met whatever that is. 507 00:24:41,156 --> 00:24:42,676 Speaker 1: We all of a sudden had a bunch of free time. 508 00:24:42,796 --> 00:24:44,716 Speaker 1: We're just kind of we're not going on vacation. We're 509 00:24:44,756 --> 00:24:47,116 Speaker 1: sitting around, what are we going to do? And one 510 00:24:47,196 --> 00:24:49,716 Speaker 1: day my sister suggests that we should play Mario Kart 511 00:24:49,756 --> 00:24:52,356 Speaker 1: on Nintendo Switch, which you can play online. So she 512 00:24:52,436 --> 00:24:54,516 Speaker 1: and my brother in law are halfway across the country 513 00:24:54,516 --> 00:24:57,436 Speaker 1: in Michigan. I'm in Philly with my family. We're basically 514 00:24:57,476 --> 00:25:00,476 Speaker 1: all locked down, and we start this weekly game and 515 00:25:01,396 --> 00:25:04,676 Speaker 1: I am fired up, like I haven't been pretty much 516 00:25:04,716 --> 00:25:09,236 Speaker 1: for the whole pandemic. I'm like shouting, got you, creen shell. 517 00:25:09,236 --> 00:25:10,836 Speaker 1: And first of all, I don't think my kids have 518 00:25:10,876 --> 00:25:13,196 Speaker 1: ever seen me trash shock before, and I was like, 519 00:25:13,316 --> 00:25:15,516 Speaker 1: is this okay? Is this a good thing? But they 520 00:25:15,556 --> 00:25:17,636 Speaker 1: loved it, and my sister was cracking up, and I 521 00:25:17,716 --> 00:25:20,276 Speaker 1: kept promising when i'd lose, like I'm like, we're playing 522 00:25:20,316 --> 00:25:22,476 Speaker 1: one more round, You're going down, and then, you know, 523 00:25:22,476 --> 00:25:25,796 Speaker 1: I would celebrate these moments of like I perfectly aimed 524 00:25:25,796 --> 00:25:28,676 Speaker 1: at greenshell and I took you out, and you know, 525 00:25:28,676 --> 00:25:30,916 Speaker 1: I'd get bombed by our six year old son and 526 00:25:31,716 --> 00:25:34,516 Speaker 1: end up behind all our kids, and like then I'd 527 00:25:34,516 --> 00:25:37,916 Speaker 1: scream about that and even that was fun. And it 528 00:25:37,996 --> 00:25:39,796 Speaker 1: started out as a weekly game, and then our kids 529 00:25:39,836 --> 00:25:42,036 Speaker 1: started waking up in the morning and asking what time 530 00:25:42,036 --> 00:25:45,836 Speaker 1: are we playing today, and it became a daily game. 531 00:25:46,476 --> 00:25:49,076 Speaker 1: And after a couple weeks of that, I did not 532 00:25:49,316 --> 00:25:52,356 Speaker 1: feel like I was languishing any anymore, and I felt 533 00:25:52,396 --> 00:25:55,076 Speaker 1: re energized. I felt goal oriented. I felt like I 534 00:25:55,116 --> 00:25:57,196 Speaker 1: was more productive at work, I felt like I was 535 00:25:57,556 --> 00:26:00,556 Speaker 1: more enthusiastic at home. And I did not connect it 536 00:26:00,556 --> 00:26:03,196 Speaker 1: to Mario Kart at the time, but looking back, it 537 00:26:03,276 --> 00:26:05,516 Speaker 1: was pretty clear that Mario Kart met some of the 538 00:26:05,516 --> 00:26:10,276 Speaker 1: conditions for escaping languishing and ever since, actually, when I'm 539 00:26:10,356 --> 00:26:12,676 Speaker 1: kind of feeling blah, like, all right, let's get a 540 00:26:12,716 --> 00:26:14,596 Speaker 1: Mario Kart game going, I mean, I love this story 541 00:26:14,636 --> 00:26:15,956 Speaker 1: because there are a few parts of it that really 542 00:26:15,956 --> 00:26:18,076 Speaker 1: fit with some of the happiness research. I mean, one 543 00:26:18,116 --> 00:26:20,716 Speaker 1: is that you know you're embracing social connection, right, which 544 00:26:20,716 --> 00:26:23,116 Speaker 1: we know is just super good, you know, for feeling better. 545 00:26:23,356 --> 00:26:25,196 Speaker 1: But another, and the big one that you identify is 546 00:26:25,196 --> 00:26:27,556 Speaker 1: that you're really engaging in some practice that gives you flow. 547 00:26:27,756 --> 00:26:29,516 Speaker 1: And so you know, what is this idea of flow 548 00:26:29,516 --> 00:26:31,916 Speaker 1: and why is it so powerful for our well being? Well? 549 00:26:31,956 --> 00:26:34,436 Speaker 1: I first read about flow when I was an undergrad 550 00:26:34,476 --> 00:26:37,836 Speaker 1: studying psychology, and I thought Holly sh extent mehi as 551 00:26:38,516 --> 00:26:41,796 Speaker 1: conceptualization of it was really meaningful. He described something that 552 00:26:41,836 --> 00:26:44,116 Speaker 1: I had experienced a lot, I never had a name for, 553 00:26:44,436 --> 00:26:46,996 Speaker 1: I hadn't really paid much attention to, and it gave 554 00:26:47,036 --> 00:26:50,196 Speaker 1: me suddenly an understanding of what I loved about what 555 00:26:50,316 --> 00:26:53,996 Speaker 1: I thought were very very unrelated passions of mine. So 556 00:26:54,276 --> 00:26:57,556 Speaker 1: he defined flow there's a state of total absorption in 557 00:26:57,596 --> 00:27:01,036 Speaker 1: an activity, where you get so immersed that you lose 558 00:27:01,076 --> 00:27:03,796 Speaker 1: track of all of your surroundings. You might not hear 559 00:27:03,836 --> 00:27:06,356 Speaker 1: a sound, you might not notice you know what people 560 00:27:06,356 --> 00:27:08,956 Speaker 1: are doing around you. Sometimes you even forget who you are. 561 00:27:09,636 --> 00:27:13,596 Speaker 1: And when I read Flow, right afterward, my sister made 562 00:27:13,636 --> 00:27:15,476 Speaker 1: me read the first three Harry Potter books, and I 563 00:27:15,516 --> 00:27:18,676 Speaker 1: remember I was like, ah, book about a wizard. Really. 564 00:27:19,316 --> 00:27:21,036 Speaker 1: I remember loving the first one so much that I 565 00:27:21,076 --> 00:27:23,116 Speaker 1: read the other two in the same weekend, and I 566 00:27:23,116 --> 00:27:26,156 Speaker 1: finished the third, and I was genuinely upset to remember 567 00:27:26,156 --> 00:27:29,316 Speaker 1: that Hogwarts wasn't real like that. That's flow. I got 568 00:27:29,356 --> 00:27:32,636 Speaker 1: so absorbed in that world that I forgot that there 569 00:27:32,676 --> 00:27:35,596 Speaker 1: was no Platform nine and three quarters, which was devastating, 570 00:27:35,956 --> 00:27:38,156 Speaker 1: But a flow state for me was It's what I 571 00:27:38,196 --> 00:27:40,636 Speaker 1: loved about everything that I spent my free time on. 572 00:27:40,756 --> 00:27:43,196 Speaker 1: It's why I loved playing video games. It's why I 573 00:27:43,276 --> 00:27:46,236 Speaker 1: had so much fun playing Ultimate Frisbee. It's why I 574 00:27:46,316 --> 00:27:49,316 Speaker 1: was a huge fan of scrabble and Trivial Pursuit and clue. 575 00:27:49,996 --> 00:27:52,476 Speaker 1: It's even what I found when I was writing, And 576 00:27:52,716 --> 00:27:54,636 Speaker 1: all of a sudden I realized, way, these these are 577 00:27:54,676 --> 00:27:58,476 Speaker 1: not totally disparate interests. These are actually different ways that 578 00:27:58,476 --> 00:28:01,356 Speaker 1: I get into the same psychological state. And the cool 579 00:28:01,356 --> 00:28:03,076 Speaker 1: thing about flow, though, is that it's not kind of 580 00:28:03,076 --> 00:28:04,716 Speaker 1: a one size fits all. I mean, she sent me 581 00:28:04,796 --> 00:28:07,596 Speaker 1: high me this interesting distinction between what he called good flow, 582 00:28:07,676 --> 00:28:09,756 Speaker 1: or hemostly called the other one junk flow. Right, the 583 00:28:09,836 --> 00:28:12,596 Speaker 1: sort of flow that you get into My favorite example 584 00:28:12,596 --> 00:28:14,476 Speaker 1: of junk flow is the sort of binging on the 585 00:28:14,556 --> 00:28:16,276 Speaker 1: Jersey Shore kind of thing where it's like you know 586 00:28:16,356 --> 00:28:18,556 Speaker 1: time's going by, right, but then at the end of it, 587 00:28:18,596 --> 00:28:21,316 Speaker 1: I'm kind of like, I feel super gross and so 588 00:28:21,516 --> 00:28:24,036 Speaker 1: talk about like, you know, this idea that binging can 589 00:28:24,076 --> 00:28:26,676 Speaker 1: be this temporary escape, but what we really need is 590 00:28:26,756 --> 00:28:28,996 Speaker 1: a better non junk flow we escape to kind of 591 00:28:28,996 --> 00:28:30,996 Speaker 1: get out of the languishing. Yeah, I think. I think 592 00:28:31,076 --> 00:28:32,796 Speaker 1: one of the challenges that a lot of us ran 593 00:28:32,836 --> 00:28:35,756 Speaker 1: into during the pandemic was I think everyone binge tiger 594 00:28:35,836 --> 00:28:39,396 Speaker 1: king and definitely, I mean it was riveting. I could 595 00:28:39,516 --> 00:28:42,876 Speaker 1: not look away, and then it finished like, Okay, that's 596 00:28:42,916 --> 00:28:45,276 Speaker 1: technically a real world, but it's not one I want 597 00:28:45,276 --> 00:28:47,396 Speaker 1: anything to do with. I don't want to think about it. 598 00:28:47,476 --> 00:28:49,796 Speaker 1: I don't want to remember that they're actually humans who 599 00:28:49,836 --> 00:28:52,836 Speaker 1: treat animals this way and also treat each other this way. 600 00:28:53,196 --> 00:28:56,036 Speaker 1: It was slimy, and it rubs off on you when 601 00:28:56,036 --> 00:28:58,596 Speaker 1: you binge it right, because you get transported into that world. 602 00:28:59,196 --> 00:29:01,356 Speaker 1: Whereas I think, and I would love to see better 603 00:29:01,356 --> 00:29:03,876 Speaker 1: experimental data for this, I'm waiting for somebody to do 604 00:29:03,916 --> 00:29:06,636 Speaker 1: the watch an hour a day versus binge it all 605 00:29:06,636 --> 00:29:08,596 Speaker 1: in one day. I don't think it rubs off on 606 00:29:08,596 --> 00:29:10,196 Speaker 1: you in the same way if you spread it out yeah, 607 00:29:10,316 --> 00:29:12,396 Speaker 1: definitely for Jersey Shore. That's true in part just because 608 00:29:12,436 --> 00:29:14,036 Speaker 1: I'd be trying to go to sleep and I'd have 609 00:29:14,076 --> 00:29:16,156 Speaker 1: the theme, so I'll like get crazy to get you 610 00:29:16,196 --> 00:29:18,316 Speaker 1: know anyway. But yeah, so the keys that we need 611 00:29:18,356 --> 00:29:20,596 Speaker 1: to find flow activities that will kind of build us 612 00:29:20,676 --> 00:29:22,756 Speaker 1: up rather than kind of drag us down. And in 613 00:29:22,836 --> 00:29:25,196 Speaker 1: your ted talk you mentioned these three features that might 614 00:29:25,236 --> 00:29:27,756 Speaker 1: be helpful mnemonic for kind of thinking about flow that 615 00:29:27,796 --> 00:29:30,356 Speaker 1: feels good. And so this is sort of mastery mindfulness 616 00:29:30,356 --> 00:29:32,716 Speaker 1: in mattering. And so let's start with mastery. What is 617 00:29:32,716 --> 00:29:34,316 Speaker 1: it and why is it so important for kind of 618 00:29:34,316 --> 00:29:37,596 Speaker 1: popping us out of languishing. Mastery is basically a feeling 619 00:29:37,636 --> 00:29:40,436 Speaker 1: of competence. You've either gotten better at something or you've 620 00:29:40,436 --> 00:29:44,396 Speaker 1: accomplished something. And I think it's relevant to avoiding languishing 621 00:29:44,436 --> 00:29:48,316 Speaker 1: because if languishing is stagnation, mastery feels like forward movement. 622 00:29:48,516 --> 00:29:50,996 Speaker 1: It's like you have momentum as opposed to standing still. 623 00:29:51,556 --> 00:29:54,196 Speaker 1: I think a lot of people hear mastery and they think, Okay, 624 00:29:54,196 --> 00:29:56,596 Speaker 1: I have to become an expert on playing the drums, 625 00:29:57,076 --> 00:29:59,916 Speaker 1: or I have to learn everything there is to know about, 626 00:30:00,156 --> 00:30:03,996 Speaker 1: you know, seventeenth century history. No, Yeah, not at all. 627 00:30:04,036 --> 00:30:06,356 Speaker 1: My beloved colleague Malcolm Gladwell has messed us up on this. 628 00:30:06,396 --> 00:30:08,316 Speaker 1: Do you think mastery and you think, okay, ten thousand 629 00:30:08,316 --> 00:30:10,796 Speaker 1: hours will be starting our number one right, But that's 630 00:30:10,796 --> 00:30:13,076 Speaker 1: not really what you mean hearing, not at all. I'm 631 00:30:13,116 --> 00:30:16,156 Speaker 1: thinking much less about huge triumphs and much more about 632 00:30:16,196 --> 00:30:20,036 Speaker 1: small wins, those little jolts of I can do this, 633 00:30:20,476 --> 00:30:24,636 Speaker 1: or I'm capable, or I succeeded at something today. And 634 00:30:24,836 --> 00:30:27,116 Speaker 1: I realized this is actually why I was drawn into 635 00:30:27,276 --> 00:30:29,516 Speaker 1: word games in the first place. It's really easy to 636 00:30:29,556 --> 00:30:31,596 Speaker 1: get that rush playing a seven letter word even when 637 00:30:31,636 --> 00:30:34,556 Speaker 1: you're languishing. Right, I can look at seven tiles, rearrange 638 00:30:34,556 --> 00:30:36,796 Speaker 1: them and do the anagram until I find the bingo. 639 00:30:37,236 --> 00:30:40,396 Speaker 1: And I think I was staying up past midnight because 640 00:30:40,396 --> 00:30:42,316 Speaker 1: when I had one of those, I wanted another one. 641 00:30:42,596 --> 00:30:45,236 Speaker 1: I wanted to keep the sense of mastery going. Only 642 00:30:45,276 --> 00:30:47,836 Speaker 1: I was exhausting myself and then waking up in the 643 00:30:47,876 --> 00:30:51,996 Speaker 1: morning regretting it. The experience of languishing is aimlessness and joylessness. 644 00:30:52,316 --> 00:30:54,556 Speaker 1: When you have mastery, all of a sudden, you not 645 00:30:54,596 --> 00:30:56,956 Speaker 1: only have a goal, you've actually made progress to court it, 646 00:30:56,996 --> 00:30:59,476 Speaker 1: and you get this kind of spring in your step 647 00:30:59,716 --> 00:31:02,476 Speaker 1: of Ooh, I like that. And you talked about the 648 00:31:02,516 --> 00:31:04,916 Speaker 1: key to finding mastery, especially when you're kind of in 649 00:31:04,956 --> 00:31:06,876 Speaker 1: this sort of mess state, is to look for these 650 00:31:06,876 --> 00:31:09,836 Speaker 1: sort of just manageable difficulties in life. So give me 651 00:31:09,876 --> 00:31:12,076 Speaker 1: a definition of just manageable difficulty and how we can 652 00:31:12,116 --> 00:31:14,276 Speaker 1: find something. Oh. There was a Gilbert brim book years 653 00:31:14,276 --> 00:31:18,196 Speaker 1: ago called Ambition where he wrote about this poignant set 654 00:31:18,236 --> 00:31:21,036 Speaker 1: of challenges that his father ran into. I guess if 655 00:31:21,076 --> 00:31:23,316 Speaker 1: I remember correctly, his father lived on a farm. As 656 00:31:23,316 --> 00:31:26,156 Speaker 1: he started getting older, he went from being able to 657 00:31:26,596 --> 00:31:29,356 Speaker 1: basically take care of a huge, huge plot of land 658 00:31:29,396 --> 00:31:31,876 Speaker 1: to having a scale back. But he kept going, he 659 00:31:31,916 --> 00:31:34,996 Speaker 1: didn't stop. And what he realized was, Okay, my limits 660 00:31:34,996 --> 00:31:37,116 Speaker 1: are now at a different place that they were before, 661 00:31:37,676 --> 00:31:40,876 Speaker 1: but I can still challenge myself. And that became something 662 00:31:40,916 --> 00:31:43,436 Speaker 1: he looked forward to. It became something that gave him 663 00:31:43,436 --> 00:31:46,116 Speaker 1: a sense of you know, I did achieve something today, right. 664 00:31:46,116 --> 00:31:48,316 Speaker 1: I was able to mow maybe a smaller lawn than 665 00:31:48,356 --> 00:31:50,436 Speaker 1: I did twenty thirty years ago, but I still was 666 00:31:50,476 --> 00:31:52,876 Speaker 1: able to take care of some of my land. And 667 00:31:52,916 --> 00:31:55,596 Speaker 1: I think those just manageable difficulties they give you a 668 00:31:55,596 --> 00:31:58,556 Speaker 1: sense of confidence that you can overcome challenges. They also 669 00:31:59,236 --> 00:32:03,076 Speaker 1: reinforce that when you hit an obstacle, you are not 670 00:32:03,156 --> 00:32:06,276 Speaker 1: necessarily going to be stopped by it. I said, that's mastery. 671 00:32:06,316 --> 00:32:08,316 Speaker 1: The second kind of part of this triumphate is this 672 00:32:08,356 --> 00:32:10,396 Speaker 1: idea of mindful, something we talk a lot about on 673 00:32:10,396 --> 00:32:13,076 Speaker 1: the podcast. So give me your own definition of mindfulness 674 00:32:13,076 --> 00:32:15,196 Speaker 1: and why it's so important for our well being. So 675 00:32:15,236 --> 00:32:17,396 Speaker 1: I guess I am printed on the Allen Langer definition 676 00:32:17,396 --> 00:32:20,916 Speaker 1: of mindfulness, which is just being present in the moment 677 00:32:20,956 --> 00:32:24,476 Speaker 1: and you know, actively noticing what's happening in your environment. 678 00:32:24,876 --> 00:32:28,876 Speaker 1: And so I think of real mindfulness as focusing all 679 00:32:28,916 --> 00:32:31,596 Speaker 1: your attention on a single task or activity, and not 680 00:32:31,716 --> 00:32:34,836 Speaker 1: exactly something that many of us are doing regularly, right, 681 00:32:34,996 --> 00:32:36,756 Speaker 1: you know, I think I think so many people make 682 00:32:36,796 --> 00:32:38,916 Speaker 1: the mistake of assuming that they can pay attention to 683 00:32:38,996 --> 00:32:41,676 Speaker 1: multiple things at once, And computers are designed to do that. 684 00:32:41,716 --> 00:32:44,636 Speaker 1: Computers are great at parallel processing. Last time I checked, 685 00:32:44,716 --> 00:32:47,676 Speaker 1: humans are serial processors. We can only focus on one 686 00:32:47,676 --> 00:32:50,516 Speaker 1: thing at a time. And I think about mindfulness is 687 00:32:50,876 --> 00:32:53,916 Speaker 1: basically concentrating on whatever that activity is that gives you 688 00:32:53,956 --> 00:32:56,876 Speaker 1: a sense of mastery. Without that concentration, you don't get 689 00:32:56,876 --> 00:32:59,476 Speaker 1: to mastery, and you also don't really get into flow. 690 00:32:59,556 --> 00:33:01,156 Speaker 1: And one of the reasons I love you bring up 691 00:33:01,156 --> 00:33:03,756 Speaker 1: that example in mindfulness of the kind of multitaskings. I 692 00:33:03,756 --> 00:33:05,556 Speaker 1: feel like this is the kind of thing that got 693 00:33:05,596 --> 00:33:08,076 Speaker 1: even worse during the worst days of the pandemic. Right, 694 00:33:08,156 --> 00:33:10,396 Speaker 1: you know, I'm on zoo, but I'm also checking my email. 695 00:33:10,396 --> 00:33:12,956 Speaker 1: I'm supposed to be watching some colloquium talk, but I'm like, 696 00:33:13,036 --> 00:33:15,436 Speaker 1: you know, reading some recipe in the background. Right, I 697 00:33:15,436 --> 00:33:17,876 Speaker 1: felt like because we added so much more screen time, 698 00:33:17,916 --> 00:33:20,236 Speaker 1: it made us so much more susceptible to the bad 699 00:33:20,236 --> 00:33:23,356 Speaker 1: habits that lead you away from mindfulness. So true, I 700 00:33:23,396 --> 00:33:26,916 Speaker 1: think we went from Okay, at least they're certain hours 701 00:33:26,916 --> 00:33:29,716 Speaker 1: of the day where I'm in transit, I'm commuting, I'm 702 00:33:29,796 --> 00:33:33,676 Speaker 1: driving somewhere, I'm flying somewhere, I'm in meetings, I'm actively 703 00:33:33,716 --> 00:33:36,556 Speaker 1: hands on working on a problem too. Huh. Now, I 704 00:33:36,596 --> 00:33:39,956 Speaker 1: could be distracted every moment of the day. And so 705 00:33:39,996 --> 00:33:42,356 Speaker 1: the solution to that you've argued is to really think 706 00:33:42,436 --> 00:33:44,716 Speaker 1: carefully about our time and how we use our time, 707 00:33:44,756 --> 00:33:46,236 Speaker 1: you know, explain how we can kind of use our 708 00:33:46,276 --> 00:33:48,676 Speaker 1: time better to experience more of this mindfulness. Well, I 709 00:33:48,716 --> 00:33:52,116 Speaker 1: think blocking out time to concentrate on one activity is 710 00:33:52,876 --> 00:33:55,876 Speaker 1: a critical step. I was so surprised to read the 711 00:33:55,876 --> 00:33:58,796 Speaker 1: evidence that even pre pandemic people were checking email seventy 712 00:33:58,796 --> 00:34:01,356 Speaker 1: four times today, that they were switching tasks on average 713 00:34:01,356 --> 00:34:03,756 Speaker 1: at least once every ten minutes. You can't get into 714 00:34:03,756 --> 00:34:06,116 Speaker 1: a real flow state with that kind of distraction, and 715 00:34:06,156 --> 00:34:08,436 Speaker 1: you're not going to accomplish much of anything either. I 716 00:34:08,436 --> 00:34:10,636 Speaker 1: also really love the way that I think Brigade Shelter 717 00:34:10,796 --> 00:34:13,396 Speaker 1: first coined the term time confetti. That captured this that 718 00:34:14,076 --> 00:34:17,196 Speaker 1: when when you're you're checking email or your phone every 719 00:34:17,236 --> 00:34:20,476 Speaker 1: few minutes, you're taking what could be a really meaningful 720 00:34:20,476 --> 00:34:23,356 Speaker 1: block of time and you're basically slicing it into these 721 00:34:23,396 --> 00:34:25,916 Speaker 1: tiny pieces, none of which are useful. You can't do 722 00:34:25,956 --> 00:34:29,036 Speaker 1: anything with the sixty two seconds right that you you're 723 00:34:29,036 --> 00:34:32,356 Speaker 1: spent between moments of checking your text messages, and so 724 00:34:32,436 --> 00:34:35,476 Speaker 1: you basically start losing entire hours and days of your 725 00:34:35,516 --> 00:34:39,516 Speaker 1: life just by dividing up the minutes into these miniature chunks. 726 00:34:39,876 --> 00:34:41,556 Speaker 1: And I think we needed the opposite of that, right. 727 00:34:41,596 --> 00:34:44,076 Speaker 1: We need to carve out time for if it's if 728 00:34:44,116 --> 00:34:46,556 Speaker 1: it's on the job, it's deep work, if it's something 729 00:34:46,596 --> 00:34:48,996 Speaker 1: that you're doing for leisure. It's deep fun right where 730 00:34:49,036 --> 00:34:51,516 Speaker 1: you put your phone away, you block the time in 731 00:34:51,516 --> 00:34:53,676 Speaker 1: your calendar, and you say, this is the only thing 732 00:34:53,916 --> 00:34:55,996 Speaker 1: that deserves my attention right now. And I think it's 733 00:34:55,996 --> 00:34:57,996 Speaker 1: one of the reasons that playing video games can induce 734 00:34:58,036 --> 00:34:59,876 Speaker 1: such flow. I mean, they're built to induce flow in 735 00:34:59,916 --> 00:35:01,396 Speaker 1: a lot of ways. But one thing is you're not 736 00:35:01,396 --> 00:35:03,836 Speaker 1: whipping out your phone and checking your email halfway through 737 00:35:04,036 --> 00:35:05,676 Speaker 1: you know, a game of Mario Kart, right like you're 738 00:35:05,716 --> 00:35:07,996 Speaker 1: fully immersed in it because you know, temporarily you're fully 739 00:35:08,036 --> 00:35:12,516 Speaker 1: immersed in it only between races occasionally just a trash 740 00:35:12,556 --> 00:35:15,356 Speaker 1: talk over tech exactly. But while while you're driving, you 741 00:35:15,396 --> 00:35:17,676 Speaker 1: can't take your eyes off the screen otherwise your car 742 00:35:17,756 --> 00:35:19,876 Speaker 1: is going to spin out and then there goes your 743 00:35:19,916 --> 00:35:22,436 Speaker 1: shot at mastery again. You know, the biggest reason I 744 00:35:22,436 --> 00:35:24,196 Speaker 1: love your Mario Kart story is it gets to kind 745 00:35:24,236 --> 00:35:27,076 Speaker 1: of this third factor, this factor of kind of mattering, right, 746 00:35:27,116 --> 00:35:29,556 Speaker 1: which is really about our social connection, whether they're people, 747 00:35:29,556 --> 00:35:31,316 Speaker 1: and that kind of impact we're having on other people. 748 00:35:31,356 --> 00:35:33,916 Speaker 1: And so talk about why mattering can be so important 749 00:35:33,996 --> 00:35:36,156 Speaker 1: for kind of popping you out of languishing. Well, when 750 00:35:36,156 --> 00:35:38,876 Speaker 1: I think about the research by Gregory Elliott and colleagues. 751 00:35:39,556 --> 00:35:42,356 Speaker 1: Most people, when they think about mattering, they think I 752 00:35:42,476 --> 00:35:45,156 Speaker 1: matter if other people notice me and care about me. 753 00:35:45,596 --> 00:35:48,396 Speaker 1: They forget that there's a critical piece, which is that 754 00:35:48,516 --> 00:35:51,516 Speaker 1: other people rely on me, that I count, that I 755 00:35:51,716 --> 00:35:54,076 Speaker 1: make a difference. I think this is something that was 756 00:35:54,116 --> 00:35:56,796 Speaker 1: missing for a lot of people, especially during the early 757 00:35:56,876 --> 00:35:59,356 Speaker 1: days of the pandemic, feeling like their hands were tied 758 00:35:59,436 --> 00:36:01,236 Speaker 1: in terms of being able to be there for their 759 00:36:01,236 --> 00:36:04,436 Speaker 1: extended families, to be able to support their friends, to 760 00:36:04,516 --> 00:36:06,796 Speaker 1: show up and do their jobs effectively, right wherever your 761 00:36:06,836 --> 00:36:09,916 Speaker 1: contribution was, to be able to volunteer right then all 762 00:36:09,956 --> 00:36:12,396 Speaker 1: of a sudden, you can't do it, and so you 763 00:36:12,676 --> 00:36:14,716 Speaker 1: lose the sense of meaning and purpose that comes through 764 00:36:14,756 --> 00:36:18,556 Speaker 1: helping other people. And I did not expect to get 765 00:36:18,596 --> 00:36:20,916 Speaker 1: that playing a video game, that's for sure. You know, 766 00:36:20,956 --> 00:36:23,476 Speaker 1: the mastery and mindfulness. I've had that my whole life. 767 00:36:23,676 --> 00:36:26,236 Speaker 1: You know, I've played Mario Kart for three decades now, 768 00:36:26,476 --> 00:36:28,916 Speaker 1: on and off. Never really felt like a mattered playing 769 00:36:28,916 --> 00:36:33,116 Speaker 1: it before. But in this situation, my sister was expecting 770 00:36:33,156 --> 00:36:36,356 Speaker 1: for the first time, she's actually expecting twins. There's literally 771 00:36:36,356 --> 00:36:40,356 Speaker 1: nothing I can do to help her, and I feel like, Okay, 772 00:36:40,716 --> 00:36:42,556 Speaker 1: well this is something I can do, you know, to 773 00:36:42,716 --> 00:36:45,356 Speaker 1: maybe relive some of our favorite childhood memories, to stay 774 00:36:45,356 --> 00:36:48,476 Speaker 1: connected when we're far apart, and maybe even more importantly, 775 00:36:48,596 --> 00:36:50,956 Speaker 1: on a daily basis. You know, there's not a lot 776 00:36:50,996 --> 00:36:52,956 Speaker 1: that our kids can do, like we're kind of all 777 00:36:52,956 --> 00:36:55,756 Speaker 1: stuck at home, and the fact that they're waking up 778 00:36:55,756 --> 00:36:57,956 Speaker 1: in the morning excited to find out what time Mario 779 00:36:58,076 --> 00:37:00,676 Speaker 1: Kart is. I felt like I had something to contribute there, 780 00:37:00,796 --> 00:37:03,756 Speaker 1: that I could organize this experience that was exciting and 781 00:37:03,836 --> 00:37:06,396 Speaker 1: energizing to them, and that she was another thing. We 782 00:37:06,436 --> 00:37:08,636 Speaker 1: talked about baby steps with mastery, but I think there's 783 00:37:08,636 --> 00:37:11,036 Speaker 1: also kind of baby steps in mattering that we forget 784 00:37:11,036 --> 00:37:13,636 Speaker 1: can be psychologically really powerful. But that's all what the 785 00:37:13,676 --> 00:37:16,076 Speaker 1: research shows. It doesn't have to be saving someone's life. 786 00:37:16,116 --> 00:37:18,396 Speaker 1: You know, you can actually matter to someone in these 787 00:37:18,396 --> 00:37:20,916 Speaker 1: tiny ways too. It's amazing how much good a five 788 00:37:20,956 --> 00:37:24,316 Speaker 1: minute favor can do, just a few minutes of of 789 00:37:24,356 --> 00:37:27,276 Speaker 1: sharing a bit of knowledge, giving someone a piece of feedback, 790 00:37:27,596 --> 00:37:30,236 Speaker 1: making an introduction between two people who could benefit from 791 00:37:30,236 --> 00:37:33,956 Speaker 1: knowing each other but are not currently connected. Those actions 792 00:37:34,436 --> 00:37:37,316 Speaker 1: take relatively small amounts of effort, but they have a 793 00:37:37,356 --> 00:37:39,196 Speaker 1: big impact on our mood. You know, I think a 794 00:37:39,196 --> 00:37:42,476 Speaker 1: lot of people underestimate the psychological boost that comes from 795 00:37:42,556 --> 00:37:45,836 Speaker 1: random acts of kindness. But also like the randomness was gone, 796 00:37:46,196 --> 00:37:48,316 Speaker 1: Like you're not running into somebody in the line at 797 00:37:48,356 --> 00:37:51,636 Speaker 1: Starbucks or the grocery store or on the bus, and 798 00:37:51,716 --> 00:37:53,756 Speaker 1: so well, how am I going to randomly help people 799 00:37:53,756 --> 00:37:55,116 Speaker 1: all of a sudden. If I'm going to help anyone, 800 00:37:55,196 --> 00:37:57,556 Speaker 1: I have to plant. And I think that that that's 801 00:37:57,556 --> 00:37:58,876 Speaker 1: something that stood in the way for a lot of 802 00:37:58,876 --> 00:38:02,236 Speaker 1: people of feeling like on a daily basis, Oh, I 803 00:38:02,316 --> 00:38:04,836 Speaker 1: did something where I actually felt like I matter? And 804 00:38:04,956 --> 00:38:06,956 Speaker 1: so do you think kind of understanding kind of how 805 00:38:07,036 --> 00:38:09,636 Speaker 1: languishing works and understanding some strategy as we can use 806 00:38:09,676 --> 00:38:11,276 Speaker 1: to pop out of it can help us, you know, 807 00:38:11,396 --> 00:38:13,636 Speaker 1: the next global pandemic that comes around, or the next 808 00:38:13,676 --> 00:38:15,596 Speaker 1: kind of mini version of languishing that comes up for 809 00:38:15,636 --> 00:38:16,916 Speaker 1: all of us. You know, have you found that we 810 00:38:16,916 --> 00:38:18,796 Speaker 1: can really snap ourselves out of it when we need to? 811 00:38:19,156 --> 00:38:21,676 Speaker 1: I hope, So, I hope. So. I think the empirical 812 00:38:21,756 --> 00:38:23,956 Speaker 1: jury is still out, but I mean, it seems to 813 00:38:23,956 --> 00:38:27,156 Speaker 1: be a state that responds well to a lot of 814 00:38:27,156 --> 00:38:29,476 Speaker 1: the kinds of positive psychology interventions that you cover on 815 00:38:29,516 --> 00:38:32,836 Speaker 1: this show, and I don't see any reason why it wouldn't. 816 00:38:33,236 --> 00:38:35,476 Speaker 1: I think the problem is that when people are languishing, 817 00:38:35,956 --> 00:38:38,596 Speaker 1: they don't put their knowledge into action. Right. They may 818 00:38:38,636 --> 00:38:41,116 Speaker 1: be fully aware of what to do, do they put 819 00:38:41,116 --> 00:38:43,956 Speaker 1: that into practice. I don't know. I've had a lot 820 00:38:43,996 --> 00:38:46,316 Speaker 1: of people ask in the last few months, Okay, I 821 00:38:46,316 --> 00:38:49,356 Speaker 1: feel like I'm languishing, or I care about someone who's languishing, 822 00:38:49,636 --> 00:38:51,996 Speaker 1: what do I do? Don't come to me for answers. 823 00:38:52,876 --> 00:38:54,676 Speaker 1: I'm muddling through this the same way that the rest 824 00:38:54,676 --> 00:38:57,236 Speaker 1: of us are. Why don't you take that person who's 825 00:38:57,276 --> 00:39:00,356 Speaker 1: languishing and ask them to find somebody else who's languishing 826 00:39:00,516 --> 00:39:03,196 Speaker 1: and give that person advice, or better yet, if you're languishing, 827 00:39:03,596 --> 00:39:06,356 Speaker 1: find someone else you know who's languishing, give them some 828 00:39:06,396 --> 00:39:09,116 Speaker 1: suggestions on how to overcome it, and you will probably 829 00:39:09,276 --> 00:39:11,276 Speaker 1: find that the advice you give to others is the 830 00:39:11,316 --> 00:39:14,116 Speaker 1: advice that you need to take for yourself. That is 831 00:39:14,276 --> 00:39:17,316 Speaker 1: wonderfully said, and also for someone who has been languishing 832 00:39:17,316 --> 00:39:20,356 Speaker 1: herself and doing this podcast, I will try to do it. Yeah, Laurie, 833 00:39:20,356 --> 00:39:22,396 Speaker 1: tell me, how do you think we can get out 834 00:39:22,396 --> 00:39:24,476 Speaker 1: of languishing well, I'm going to buy a switch, like 835 00:39:24,516 --> 00:39:26,516 Speaker 1: as student as this interviews over love. I love how 836 00:39:26,556 --> 00:39:28,476 Speaker 1: literally people took that. By the way, I got all 837 00:39:28,516 --> 00:39:30,876 Speaker 1: these emails after the Ted Talks saying can you give 838 00:39:30,876 --> 00:39:33,076 Speaker 1: me some tips on how to improve my Mario Kart skills? 839 00:39:33,436 --> 00:39:35,836 Speaker 1: Like that was not the point. The point was think 840 00:39:35,876 --> 00:39:38,116 Speaker 1: about what is your version of Mario Kart? Right, what's 841 00:39:38,156 --> 00:39:41,196 Speaker 1: the activity of the project where you have flow with 842 00:39:41,276 --> 00:39:43,396 Speaker 1: people you love or care about, and where you get 843 00:39:43,436 --> 00:39:46,396 Speaker 1: that sense of mastery, mindfulness and mattering. But you know what, 844 00:39:46,476 --> 00:39:48,356 Speaker 1: if Mario Kart is your cup of tea, I will 845 00:39:48,436 --> 00:39:54,036 Speaker 1: race you, Laurie Santos, and you're going down awesome. In 846 00:39:54,076 --> 00:39:56,476 Speaker 1: the final episode of this season of The Happiness Lab, 847 00:39:56,836 --> 00:39:59,036 Speaker 1: we'll tackle an emotion that Adam and I touched on 848 00:39:59,076 --> 00:40:03,556 Speaker 1: a few times when that's hurting so many people right now, burnout. 849 00:40:04,316 --> 00:40:07,316 Speaker 1: We'll see that burnout isn't just a matter of feeling blah. 850 00:40:07,356 --> 00:40:09,436 Speaker 1: It's a state of mind that, if not addressed, can 851 00:40:09,436 --> 00:40:12,756 Speaker 1: wreck havoc on your career and your livelihood. But as well, 852 00:40:12,796 --> 00:40:15,316 Speaker 1: here next time, there are some evidence based ways to 853 00:40:15,356 --> 00:40:18,036 Speaker 1: come back from burnout, even if it feels like life 854 00:40:18,036 --> 00:40:21,556 Speaker 1: has drained you dry. I burned out at my dream job. 855 00:40:21,956 --> 00:40:24,476 Speaker 1: My constant thought was, Ah, you know, not this again. 856 00:40:24,676 --> 00:40:27,436 Speaker 1: I stress eight, I stress drank, and it was just 857 00:40:27,996 --> 00:40:31,836 Speaker 1: utterly miserable. So I knew that something had a change, 858 00:40:31,836 --> 00:40:34,836 Speaker 1: and I did not yet have a way out. And 859 00:40:34,876 --> 00:40:37,316 Speaker 1: so I hope you'll return to hear the final episode 860 00:40:37,316 --> 00:40:40,196 Speaker 1: in this season of The Happiness Lab with me Doctor 861 00:40:40,276 --> 00:40:47,076 Speaker 1: Laurie Santos. If you love this show and others from 862 00:40:47,076 --> 00:40:51,756 Speaker 1: Pushkin Industries, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is 863 00:40:51,756 --> 00:40:55,756 Speaker 1: a podcast subscription that offers bonus content an uninterrupted listening 864 00:40:55,876 --> 00:40:58,676 Speaker 1: for only four ninety nine a month. As a special 865 00:40:58,716 --> 00:41:01,796 Speaker 1: gift to Pushkin Plus subscribers, I'll be sharing a series 866 00:41:01,796 --> 00:41:04,876 Speaker 1: of six guided meditations to help you practice the lessons 867 00:41:04,956 --> 00:41:08,156 Speaker 1: we've learned from our experts. Pushkin Plus is available on 868 00:41:08,196 --> 00:41:11,436 Speaker 1: the show page and Apple Podcasts, or at pushkin dot fm, 869 00:41:11,516 --> 00:41:19,076 Speaker 1: slash plus. The Happiness Lab is co written and produced 870 00:41:19,156 --> 00:41:23,156 Speaker 1: by Ryan Dilley, Emily Anne Vaughan, and Courtney Guerino. Our 871 00:41:23,156 --> 00:41:27,356 Speaker 1: original music was composed by Zachary Silver, with additional scoring, mixing, 872 00:41:27,356 --> 00:41:31,876 Speaker 1: and mastering by Evan Viola. Special thanks to Milabelle, Heather Faine, 873 00:41:32,036 --> 00:41:36,756 Speaker 1: John Stars, Carli Migliori, Christina Sullivan, Brandt Haynes, Maggie Taylor, 874 00:41:36,916 --> 00:41:41,796 Speaker 1: Eric Sandler, Nicole Morano, Royston Preserve, Jacob Weisberg, and my agent, 875 00:41:41,956 --> 00:41:45,116 Speaker 1: Ben Davis. The Happiness Lab is brought to you by 876 00:41:45,116 --> 00:41:49,036 Speaker 1: Pushkin Industries and me, Doctor Laurie Santos. To find more 877 00:41:49,076 --> 00:41:53,196 Speaker 1: Pushkin podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 878 00:41:53,196 --> 00:41:54,636 Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your podcast