Speaker 1: Swine Down with Janet Kramer and I have Heart Radio podcast.
Speaker 1: All right, guy, So we're so excited for today's podcast
Speaker 1: because we have two legends, Argina be on the show,
Speaker 1: Phil Donna Hue and Marlo Thomas. H Phil for those
Speaker 1: of you that don't know, and actually I had to,
Speaker 1: I knew the name, Um, but he was basically the
Speaker 1: Oprah before Oprah. He's the king of daytime talk for sure. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean he's one a ton of Emmy's UM for
Speaker 1: Outstanding Talk Show. So, I mean he was, he was
Speaker 1: the first two. Here's the o G. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: and my parents have been here, my grandfather, um, you know,
Speaker 1: this past week and we even asked them, We're like, hey,
Speaker 1: do you guys know Phil Donahue, And everyone kind of
Speaker 1: lit up. It was like, yeah, I used to watch
Speaker 1: the heck out of that show. I always used to
Speaker 1: watch it and this and that, and so, I mean
Speaker 1: everybody knows Phil Donahue and his wife Marlo Thomas, who
Speaker 1: was actually she was a guest on his show, and
Speaker 1: that's kind of when everyone saw them, follow them in
Speaker 1: love because everyone knew that they saw the spark. Um.
Speaker 1: So she's an actress. Um, she's she was on a show. Actually,
Speaker 1: I was walking today with one of my girlfriends and
Speaker 1: she was on a show called That Girl. UM. And
Speaker 1: they've been married for over forty years and they have
Speaker 1: a book out UM on our same imprint with HarperCollins
Speaker 1: and the books called What Makes a Marriage Last? Because
Speaker 1: they've been married over forty years. And what they did
Speaker 1: is they, UM, they took forty couples couples, UM, and
Speaker 1: they basically interviewed them because they're great at that. They're
Speaker 1: great interviewing obviously Phil and then you know, UM saying
Speaker 1: with Marlowe. But they interviewed these couples and it was
Speaker 1: so cool because you know, we have a crash course
Speaker 1: in their book and we got to read it. UM
Speaker 1: read a lot of it because we just got it
Speaker 1: the other day, and just to kind of hear the
Speaker 1: stories of some people that you know, I really look
Speaker 1: up to, like Viola Davis and her husband, and you know, UM,
Speaker 1: Kelly Rippa, Mark Nsuelo's, Jamie Lee Curtis and her husband,
Speaker 1: and all the couples. They kind of have a requirement
Speaker 1: for all the couples that they've been married UM a
Speaker 1: certain amount of years or have been like they have
Speaker 1: Elton John and David Furnish, who have been in a
Speaker 1: domestic partnership for over fifteen years, married for the last
Speaker 1: four to six years because of locality reasons, but they
Speaker 1: have this kind of prerequisite for these couples, you know,
Speaker 1: and especially I think all of us at one point
Speaker 1: have been like, man, how does you know these people
Speaker 1: who are of such celebrity status stay in like it's
Speaker 1: always a genuine surprise when they see that, or even
Speaker 1: I think so when you see a celebrity couple that
Speaker 1: have been married for so long, Oh, for sure, you're like, oh,
Speaker 1: how did they do it? You know, like you think
Speaker 1: about your yourself. You're like, man, it's hard, and how
Speaker 1: does someone like that do it? Yeah? For example, like
Speaker 1: Michael J. Fox and Tracy you look at them and
Speaker 1: you're like, man, how long? How do they make it work?
Speaker 1: What was there? What was the secret? And I know, Mike,
Speaker 1: I know you always have your headphones on when we travel,
Speaker 1: but whenever I do see, you know, a sweet old couple,
Speaker 1: or when I'm on the plane traveling by myself, I'm
Speaker 1: always like, how long have you been married? And then
Speaker 1: I'll always say like, Okay, what's your secret? And whenever
Speaker 1: I play shows, I usually sing love and then I
Speaker 1: celebrate whoever has had the longest marriage. And so you know,
Speaker 1: some of these people are thirty forty years and I'm
Speaker 1: always like, what's your secret? And I haven't forget this
Speaker 1: one guy, he's like over medication, over medicating and I
Speaker 1: was like no, um. And one of them was just
Speaker 1: like the wife was like we're best friends. Yeah he's
Speaker 1: like he's like yeah, okay. But that's the cool thing
Speaker 1: about this book though, because I mean, they get these
Speaker 1: people to these celebrity couples to really open up and
Speaker 1: share things that they've been through, what has helped it
Speaker 1: work for them? And it's just what's great about it is,
Speaker 1: you know a lot of things said Jan and I
Speaker 1: have shared. You know, you guys have commented and responded
Speaker 1: saying because of what we share, you don't feel so alone.
Speaker 1: And this book like epitomizes that where it's like, man,
Speaker 1: if all these couples that a lot of us look
Speaker 1: up to, you know, and hold with such high regard,
Speaker 1: and they go through what they go through and all
Speaker 1: of their marriages, they all look different. Not one of
Speaker 1: them is the same. Now you know, some of them
Speaker 1: have similar beliefs, but some I'm gonna have polar opposite beliefs.
Speaker 1: And certain things like you know, the the classic debate
Speaker 1: of going to bed angry versus not going to bed angry,
Speaker 1: and I mean, it's it's amazing. Yeah. One of the
Speaker 1: things in UM Ray Romano and his wife um and
Speaker 1: A story is Ray says it's good to have the
Speaker 1: same outlook, the same values. UM. But then it's also,
Speaker 1: and he goes, I'm just speaking for ourselves, it's also
Speaker 1: that we're compatible. She's that person. I'm this person. I'm
Speaker 1: this person who performs and needs attention. She's that person
Speaker 1: who doesn't feel neglected by this person. So I mean,
Speaker 1: especially in this business, the pieces have to fit that way.
Speaker 1: And I think about it's just like, you know, who's
Speaker 1: your person? Have you found your person? Are you with
Speaker 1: your person? You know, as a person, because like with
Speaker 1: the race story, he's like, I need attention and I
Speaker 1: need someone, I need laughs, and I need someone to
Speaker 1: just be that supportive stay at home mom, you know,
Speaker 1: and and and rock and I need to like feel
Speaker 1: like I'm you know, a funny, funny person. And it's
Speaker 1: and she's that person for him. So it's like, what
Speaker 1: is it like? So I'll ask you, like, what makes
Speaker 1: you that person? Or me be that person? Or maybe
Speaker 1: I'm not you are you are my person? And I
Speaker 1: think that's something that you find over time, because maybe
Speaker 1: some people who are newly together, newly married might give
Speaker 1: a fluffy answer, but I think you start to realize
Speaker 1: when you go through the day to day, the monotony
Speaker 1: and the grinding of marriage and having a family, the
Speaker 1: little things of of how you balance each other out
Speaker 1: and how much you know you and I've commented how
Speaker 1: much we balanced each other out in the day to
Speaker 1: day stuff, you know, with certain things. And it's because
Speaker 1: of that that that even that simple stuff reassures me.
Speaker 1: I'm like, this is my person. I was like, because
Speaker 1: if I had somebody like me, it wouldn't be nearly
Speaker 1: as passionate, nearly as magical, and I wouldn't be a
Speaker 1: better person, you know what I mean. And kind of
Speaker 1: to that topic, there's something on John mcenroon and Patty
Speaker 1: Smith's story. You know, it even starts off the chapter
Speaker 1: where there's a quote it says women are notorious for saying, oh,
Speaker 1: he's got the potential, but potential is not good enough,
Speaker 1: marry the person. Don't marry potential. And you know, I
Speaker 1: want to ask Phil and Marlow about that question too,
Speaker 1: but it gets your thinking. It's like in Ray Romano's
Speaker 1: case and his wife, Um, you know how many of
Speaker 1: us out there are marrying based on potential? You know,
Speaker 1: our people accepting? Can people accept who's in front of them? Yeah?
Speaker 1: People will grow, but you can't ask for this drastic change. Yes,
Speaker 1: I I do fear though that, And I know that
Speaker 1: I've been um where I've almost thought I could change
Speaker 1: the person, you know, And I think because I think
Speaker 1: we as women, and I'm not saying to categorize just us,
Speaker 1: but I feel like I think a lot of women
Speaker 1: can be like, oh I can change that, or like no,
Speaker 1: like I'll be the one he doesn't do this with,
Speaker 1: or I'll be the one like to change that, and
Speaker 1: when it kind of hits you in the face, it's like, no, no,
Speaker 1: you won't. And you might help them grow and be
Speaker 1: a better person, kind of like you're doing for me,
Speaker 1: So that could be for sure the case. But to
Speaker 1: just straight up change, like if they're gonna stop smoking
Speaker 1: marijuana because they know I hate marijuana. It's like, well,
Speaker 1: I mean to to that point. I mean, I think
Speaker 1: men even look at women in that regard where we
Speaker 1: kind of put that power in you as well. Where
Speaker 1: I always told myself back when I was single, it's like,
Speaker 1: when I get married, I won't you know, mess around anymore.
Speaker 1: It's like, because the woman will change me. It'll be
Speaker 1: because of that interesting, you know what I mean, Like
Speaker 1: I put such high you know, expectations on that as well,
Speaker 1: even though as you and I found out, has nothing
Speaker 1: to do with you in my situation at least, So
Speaker 1: it's just interesting, if you know, I think it's important.
Speaker 1: I think that's an important thing to kind of touch on.
Speaker 1: And I can't wait again to talk to Phil and
Speaker 1: Marlow about it. Um on those kind of expectations, but
Speaker 1: you want to take a break and get them one, Okay,
Speaker 1: So we are waiting on Marlow and Phil. Are there
Speaker 1: any ones that any relationships from the Brian Cranson um
Speaker 1: and his wife or there's member Deepak and Chopra they're
Speaker 1: in there as well. Um another great couple that Um Lily,
Speaker 1: there's Lily Tomlin and Jane Wagner Sully that Captain Chip
Speaker 1: and Joanna Ted Danson Mary. I always wondered how their
Speaker 1: relationship because there's just Billy, Janice, Crystal Jay and Simon Smith,
Speaker 1: Kevin Bacon, Kira Sedwick. I'm just I'm so like, I
Speaker 1: just I hope everyone gets this book because it's it's
Speaker 1: awesome and I'm you know, we're only kind of a
Speaker 1: little more than a half in and I'm just so
Speaker 1: enjoying it. But is there one that you just really
Speaker 1: loved reading? I think, uh, you know, content point earlier
Speaker 1: about how can someone of that stature, that lifestyle being
Speaker 1: a committed marriage and relationship for however many years they
Speaker 1: have and Llo cool J is one of those. They've
Speaker 1: been married for twenty five years. Wow. And he man
Speaker 1: in the height of his career. Yeah, I mean they met.
Speaker 1: They met when they were just teens. He had one
Speaker 1: record out, he was at the beginning of his career,
Speaker 1: so he hadn't really hit it like main mainstream yet.
Speaker 1: And there's only a two year period that they were
Speaker 1: apart from each other, but that was still when they
Speaker 1: were just dating. They weren't even married yet. So any
Speaker 1: takeaways from that one, I think just their maturity talking
Speaker 1: about their relationship, it's just the way they talk to
Speaker 1: each other the way they talk about their marriage. There's
Speaker 1: just such kind of mutual respect there that you know,
Speaker 1: they value what each other is saying. Um, you know,
Speaker 1: because that's a cool thing about the book. It gives
Speaker 1: a lot of dialogue. So in the book too, it'll say,
Speaker 1: you'll see the actual dialogue of what they said. So, yeah,
Speaker 1: of the conversation, so to have like Phil says this,
Speaker 1: and then you know Locol James, who's he goes by Todd?
Speaker 1: Todd says this, Simone says this, Mama says this, Toddy,
Speaker 1: I never knew that. To take away, the beginning of
Speaker 1: chapter feels like, so what do I call him? Like
Speaker 1: Ello cool j J? And his assistant was like, now
Speaker 1: it's call him Todd. What was that shark movie? Elcal
Speaker 1: jameson deep? What what was that? Oh? Deep bluesy deeplu.
Speaker 1: Wasn't there a song that he had in there? Oh? God,
Speaker 1: was so starting me crazy? IMNA look it up. It
Speaker 1: was so bad, it was good, It was so bad,
Speaker 1: it was good. What about for you? What which one
Speaker 1: stood out so far? Um? Oh my gosh, well, I
Speaker 1: would say Michael J. Fox is kind of made me
Speaker 1: a little sad. Really, Well, let me know he's just here.
Speaker 1: I'll pull up one of the quotes that he they
Speaker 1: talked about. But obviously you know, um, he got diagnosed
Speaker 1: a couple Yeah, I mean it's been I don't want
Speaker 1: to misquote it, but it's been at least fifteen years,
Speaker 1: hasn't it since he's been diagnosed with Parkinson's um. And
Speaker 1: she actually got Marlowe got she cried after she left
Speaker 1: their interview and because she just saw the beauty um
Speaker 1: one of the things that she wrote, and I'll tell
Speaker 1: you right now, I'm going to my little dog ear thing.
Speaker 1: And she said, um, well, first of all, Tracy said,
Speaker 1: in marriage you have to take it all the good
Speaker 1: with the bad, and if you love somebody, you deal
Speaker 1: with whatever it is they're dealing with. Their issues become
Speaker 1: their issues. And I really took a lot from that
Speaker 1: because that's so true. I mean, especially in the vows
Speaker 1: when you marry someone, it's until death drew us part
Speaker 1: signals in health and sickness and in health, and you
Speaker 1: know that's exactly a thing in marriage. You have to
Speaker 1: take it all the good with the bad. If you
Speaker 1: love somebody, you deal with whatever it is they're dealing
Speaker 1: with their issues become your issues. And you know, just
Speaker 1: with sickness or within addiction, or within compulsive this or personality,
Speaker 1: like your whatever issue that you have or start having
Speaker 1: in a marriage becomes your spouse's issue. Now you don't
Speaker 1: have to take it on, but it's still it's it's
Speaker 1: it's their choice whether or not to be a part
Speaker 1: of it, to take it on. And you know that
Speaker 1: that kind of brings me to the question that we've
Speaker 1: gotten a lot, and it's like, how do you know
Speaker 1: to stay? How do you know it's worth it? And
Speaker 1: just you know, thinking of that quote and what we've
Speaker 1: talked about is even with that mindset of it becomes
Speaker 1: you're cross to bear your burden to be not not
Speaker 1: saying it necessarily from a negative place, but it's, uh,
Speaker 1: it still takes both people, you know. So it's it's
Speaker 1: one of those things where it's not like, well, I'm married,
Speaker 1: I just have to deal with this. Yeah, And she says,
Speaker 1: Michael and Tracy showed me to the door. This is
Speaker 1: Marlowe speaking. And I began the short walk home. I
Speaker 1: hadn't taken more than a few steps before I began
Speaker 1: to cry. What I had witnessed for the past ninety
Speaker 1: minutes was the very heart of the marital bond. It
Speaker 1: was uncanny to me and it remains so today that
Speaker 1: love and pain, joy and sadness, the best and the worst,
Speaker 1: can coexist so closely, and yet with such grace. Michael's
Speaker 1: illness is always there. The movement he has little control
Speaker 1: over is there. His disease is in their marriage, and
Speaker 1: their marriage is in his disease. They are braided as
Speaker 1: a given, and that braid is made of love and
Speaker 1: commitment and steel. It filled me with love for them,
Speaker 1: and it filled me with love for my own husband.
Speaker 1: This is marriage. And I just remember when I when
Speaker 1: I read that the other day, I was just like,
Speaker 1: it gave me chills because that's so true. I mean,
Speaker 1: through illness, through all of it. That is a part
Speaker 1: of the marriage. And you take on these It's almost
Speaker 1: like when we talk about in our book by the baggage,
Speaker 1: Like it's not saying that's baggage, but it is in
Speaker 1: a sense where you take on some persons maybe emotional
Speaker 1: past childhood wounds or that those become part of the marriage.
Speaker 1: And it's just yeah, it just made me really reflect
Speaker 1: a lot about you. Know our situation and addiction and
Speaker 1: and it's just because that is you know, it's it's
Speaker 1: it's it's our issue now, it's not just yours. And
Speaker 1: again I don't take it on, but it is something
Speaker 1: that we do together as a team. Um yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: but you know you also yes, yes, it affects but
Speaker 1: at the same time, like it's there, and um, how
Speaker 1: do I say this, Like I'm not trying to it
Speaker 1: affects you, but it's not your responsibility. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: there you go. And I'm not like I don't play
Speaker 1: like even though some would say I play victim, I
Speaker 1: don't like I'm not playing victim to it. It's just
Speaker 1: it's there and we acknowledge it. But it's still part
Speaker 1: of staying and knowing things, just like you know that
Speaker 1: I I don't know, what's one thing that you know
Speaker 1: is one of my issues? Your perfect time? Oh my god,
Speaker 1: shut up? No, but I'm serious, you know, Like it's okay,
Speaker 1: We've it's almost like the sign up sheet. It's here,
Speaker 1: we've signed up for it. We we didn't sign up
Speaker 1: for it, but it's there, and this is marriage and
Speaker 1: we have to navigate it together. Like for me it
Speaker 1: would be compromising on your timeline. So like with your
Speaker 1: timeline of things, you want things done, like there's no
Speaker 1: better time than the present. That's an issue exactly. Sometimes
Speaker 1: it's drop everything and do it now, you know, and
Speaker 1: so but it's but again that's why I talked about earlier,
Speaker 1: where we balance each other. It's like there's still a
Speaker 1: priority of things, like this certain thing can wait till
Speaker 1: tomorrow or can wait till later. It doesn't have to
Speaker 1: be done right now. We don't have to stretch about
Speaker 1: it right now, we don't have to overthink this situation.
Speaker 1: Right now. We can cross certain bridges when we get
Speaker 1: to them right. So that's where I realized back. But
Speaker 1: also at the same time, at moments I am too
Speaker 1: laws I fare so you'll get those things in my
Speaker 1: head or get it, you know, higher on my priority
Speaker 1: list because it does need to get down or whatever
Speaker 1: it is. So yeah, for sure, and I also think too,
Speaker 1: I mean, I'll give myself a little more and I'll say,
Speaker 1: you know, one of the issues that you have to
Speaker 1: deal without me is is from my past to where
Speaker 1: sometimes I can maybe portray out on you unfairly. So
Speaker 1: just like when we said earlier, like childhood wounds or
Speaker 1: for mind, mostly like adolescent, but there can be certain
Speaker 1: things where it can Unfortunately you take the brunt of
Speaker 1: it because of you know, things that I'm still trying
Speaker 1: to to work through through you know, and in our
Speaker 1: relationship and stuff to do better and not to like
Speaker 1: it's not not put your face on it, you know,
Speaker 1: for sure, I appreciate that. Um. Also, Kelly Rippa and
Speaker 1: Mark and Suelos, they were also in the book, and
Speaker 1: I love during their thing too. Right when they got married,
Speaker 1: she through the ring like they were over. So there's
Speaker 1: some juicy stuff in there too. It's so good. Um,
Speaker 1: but let's take one more break and hopefully we'll be
Speaker 1: able to get them on. So talking about all this
Speaker 1: stuff kind of made me think of something I was
Speaker 1: on our our buddy Nick Wood six podcast. Um, you know,
Speaker 1: meet him and his brother a kind of having some
Speaker 1: dad talk, uh not too long ago, and we're talking
Speaker 1: about relationships and stuff, and I kind of said something
Speaker 1: making a point of I feel like when someone has
Speaker 1: asked a question, why do you love your partner, why
Speaker 1: do you love your your spouse or whoever? If someone
Speaker 1: answers quickly, then it's surface level interesting because it's easier
Speaker 1: to say, because love, as you and I have found out,
Speaker 1: it's more than just a feeling. It's it's a concept.
Speaker 1: It is a feeling, but there's so much more attached
Speaker 1: to it. It's respect, it's understanding, its forgiveness, it's there's
Speaker 1: so much where it's more than just Oh, why do
Speaker 1: you love Jane? Oh she's beautiful, she's hard working, she's
Speaker 1: this Like sometimes sometimes when I asked that question, it's
Speaker 1: it's almost hard to put into words, because how do
Speaker 1: you put into words everything we've been through and all
Speaker 1: the reasons that I love you induce into single adjectives,
Speaker 1: Like it's difficult when you really love somebody, when you're
Speaker 1: really committed in working at the relationship that you're in.
Speaker 1: And I think what you're reading what Marlow was saying
Speaker 1: about Michael J. Fox's story at the end of that
Speaker 1: was so beautiful and that had me thinking about it.
Speaker 1: I'm like, when she was like, this is marriage, like
Speaker 1: braided together and all of this stuff, I was like,
Speaker 1: it's so much more than these surface level adjectives and
Speaker 1: why we love each other. So I just thought what
Speaker 1: Marlo said was beautiful and it just kind of had
Speaker 1: that It reminded me of that topic that I've talked
Speaker 1: about with Nick. So, what did you come to the
Speaker 1: conclusion of on why I Love You? That would take
Speaker 1: a whole episode, honey, were you able to think about anything?
Speaker 1: She's got her fishing rout out fishing right now for
Speaker 1: just curious, like if anything, like, because that's what's a
Speaker 1: problem to like what if you couldn't find anything? Like
Speaker 1: what if you're like like, that's a bummer too, when
Speaker 1: when you start to when you don't really when you
Speaker 1: can't say why you love your spouse and not must
Speaker 1: be the worst feeling. Because I've gotten there with I've
Speaker 1: gotten there with relationships before, but like why do I like,
Speaker 1: I don't even think I love you? And that like
Speaker 1: that realization is it's crazy. So I mean just think like,
Speaker 1: if someone's listening right now, I'm thinking about, Okay, what
Speaker 1: are the reasons like why do I love my husband?
Speaker 1: And if you're sitting there and you're just going like that,
Speaker 1: that's sad. That's that's almost a sad realization. That's a
Speaker 1: that's a great a great point, and it's it. I'm
Speaker 1: sure there's people out there that even if they thought
Speaker 1: about it, right now like, Oh, why do I love
Speaker 1: my boyfriend or my significant other whoever they might? Actually
Speaker 1: I don't know, which is why I want to go
Speaker 1: thinking like that just sparked um when I was reading
Speaker 1: this book the other day with Jamie Lee Curtis and
Speaker 1: her husband, Um Christopher Guest, and she said, Jamie goes,
Speaker 1: the secret to marriage is how much hatred can your
Speaker 1: marriage actually survive? And Marlowe actually goes hatred and Jamie says, yes,
Speaker 1: the idea that you wouldn't hate the other person is crazy.
Speaker 1: I think what happens is that people have an idealized agreement.
Speaker 1: They go into this thing with all the best intentions,
Speaker 1: and at some point I think they start hating some things,
Speaker 1: and then they get really terrified and they leave. And
Speaker 1: what I'm saying is if our contribution to your book
Speaker 1: about marriage is the word hatred, then both of us,
Speaker 1: I think, will feel really good. I'm not saying that
Speaker 1: we have a perfect marriage. We don't. I don't think
Speaker 1: there is one. But I think what people want to
Speaker 1: know is that the other people. This is huge, but
Speaker 1: I think what people want to know is that other
Speaker 1: people struggle and that life is hard. It's the reason
Speaker 1: that quote from The Princess Bride is so profound. Life
Speaker 1: is pain highness. Anyone who says differently is selling something.
Speaker 1: And so I think people actually want to know that
Speaker 1: other people have struggled. And then her husband said and
Speaker 1: that they're not alone. And I love this too, because
Speaker 1: Jamie Lee Curtis is twenty or sober. Shease. There's another
Speaker 1: quote I learned from recovery. If you stay on the bus,
Speaker 1: the scenery will change. That basically means that feelings come
Speaker 1: and go, and they can change from one day to
Speaker 1: the next. You may hate your spouse one day and
Speaker 1: the next day you don't hate them. But you wake
Speaker 1: up and it's a new day and a fresh start.
Speaker 1: The scenery has changed. And to end all this, Jamie goes,
Speaker 1: what's the secret to staying married? Don't leave? Boom. That's awesome.
Speaker 1: That's like Mike drop right there. Look, I mean I
Speaker 1: get people sometimes I have no choice but to leave
Speaker 1: because I truly do believe that if there's just one
Speaker 1: person working in the marriage, it's not gonna last. And
Speaker 1: we talked about that a lot in our book, If
Speaker 1: Fight It's Which, By the way, pre order you can
Speaker 1: pre order Janna and Mike dot com. But it's two
Speaker 1: people have to do the work. But there's gonna be
Speaker 1: sometimes where you might have to pick up the slack
Speaker 1: for the other person and vice versa. But I do
Speaker 1: you know the hatred word is just you know because
Speaker 1: there might be a tow back to that question. There
Speaker 1: might be a time when you're thinking, do I even
Speaker 1: love my spouse right now? Well? I think and that
Speaker 1: that's where it goes into this the idea. But between
Speaker 1: like and love, right it's like, I don't like you
Speaker 1: right now, but but you know I still love you
Speaker 1: because to Jamie. To Jamie encouraged the point, it's like,
Speaker 1: I don't like you today, but I'm gonna stay on
Speaker 1: the bus because in theory, I'm gonna love. I'm gonna
Speaker 1: love you tomorrow or the next day or the you
Speaker 1: know what I mean. Like, so you don't always have
Speaker 1: to like each other, because God knows we don't always
Speaker 1: like each other. I just my mom always told me
Speaker 1: that hate was such a strong word and to never hate,
Speaker 1: like anytime I ever said I hate her my mom
Speaker 1: my mom My mom ground me if I said the
Speaker 1: word hate. I was not allowed to say the word hate.
Speaker 1: Like it was just because you know as little girls,
Speaker 1: You're like, I hate you. It's like my mom would
Speaker 1: slap me and send me up to my room. Seriously,
Speaker 1: I would get grounded for the word hate. So hate
Speaker 1: kind of I'm like, heye is such an such a
Speaker 1: scary word to me that I'm like, I don't know
Speaker 1: if I could ever say to you I hate you,
Speaker 1: even though there are plenty of times I in the
Speaker 1: dark days I've know I I would may even called
Speaker 1: you every other F bomb and a hole in the world,
Speaker 1: But I don't think I could actually say I h
Speaker 1: a t eu. She spilled it out of I'm just saying, like,
Speaker 1: I just like, that's just such a strong word to me.
Speaker 1: For sure. I respect your beliefs, you're like, but I
Speaker 1: hate you. I hated you, No, not at all. It's
Speaker 1: interesting though, it is interesting, but I get it, Like,
Speaker 1: I just I think for me, like maybe would make
Speaker 1: me feel better, is like I've just liked you plenty
Speaker 1: and you've just liked me plenty. The hates just a little.
Speaker 1: But it's interesting. How much hate can your marriage survive? Well,
Speaker 1: let's talk to Phil and Marlow about it. Get them
Speaker 1: on and uh, I can't wait all right for all
Speaker 1: of our listeners. We've been teasing this all episode, and
Speaker 1: we're so so, so privileged and excited to have the
Speaker 1: wonderful Phil Donahue and Marlowe Thomas on our show today.
Speaker 1: Thank you both so much for being here. Thank you,
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you. So we have been reading your
Speaker 1: book UM like crazy. It's been. It's such a great book.
Speaker 1: I love the concept how you guys went about it,
Speaker 1: but I kind of wanted to dive first into UM
Speaker 1: to Marlow. Marlow, I was laughing when I was reading
Speaker 1: your part where you said that you didn't really even
Speaker 1: know if you wanted to get married, and then you
Speaker 1: said marriage is like living with a jailer. You have
Speaker 1: to please, and I was just like reading at the pools,
Speaker 1: I was like, I was just dying laughing because I'm
Speaker 1: because you were just like you had no interest at
Speaker 1: all in getting married. No, never, never, never. Well, you know,
Speaker 1: I grew up with my father was one of ten
Speaker 1: Lebanese kids, nine of them were boys, So I saw
Speaker 1: nine Lebanese marriages dominated by these men, I mean, and
Speaker 1: they were very loving. They weren't abusive or anything. They
Speaker 1: were very loving husbands and loving dads. But they were
Speaker 1: the boss and the wives were in service to them.
Speaker 1: And I mean, so that's a model I saw. And
Speaker 1: on my mother's side there she was one of five Italians,
Speaker 1: four girls and a boy, and they all had those
Speaker 1: same marriages. So to me, that was the definition of
Speaker 1: marriage and it was completely resistible. I mean, I thought, well,
Speaker 1: that's just not for me. And I wasn't upset about
Speaker 1: or anything. I just knew that's where I didn't want
Speaker 1: to go. And uh, I had another line, which was
Speaker 1: marriages like at a vacuum cleaner and stick stick it
Speaker 1: to your ear and it sucks out all your energy
Speaker 1: and ambition. That's my other one. So nobody thought I
Speaker 1: would ever get married, and I don't think I would
Speaker 1: have had had you fallen in love with phil on
Speaker 1: Um National Television. Yeah, well that didn't hurt. But also
Speaker 1: the world had changed a little bit, you know, and
Speaker 1: the definition of marriage relaxed, and I could see that
Speaker 1: I could, with the right partner, defined my own marriage
Speaker 1: that it didn't have to be that really strict place
Speaker 1: that I saw, but it could be a roomy enough
Speaker 1: place to embrace two whole careers, too, whole lives. Because
Speaker 1: I had my own life, my own name, my own house,
Speaker 1: my own career, as did Phil. So we were very
Speaker 1: much the mirror image of each other in terms of
Speaker 1: personality and ambition and so forth. And that wouldn't have
Speaker 1: been possible. I could never have married a man like
Speaker 1: my father or my uncle's. It just what wouldn't have happened.
Speaker 1: So uh so a lot had to happen. I had
Speaker 1: to I had to meet the right man who I
Speaker 1: could define my marriage with, and uh and make a
Speaker 1: new model. And it's funny. The first five years of
Speaker 1: our marriage we lived in two different cities. I was
Speaker 1: working in l A. He was working in Chicago during
Speaker 1: the Donna Hue Show. I was produced, seeing like about
Speaker 1: twelve movies in those five years. And he was raising
Speaker 1: his four sons. He had custody of his four boys.
Speaker 1: They were in school. So we were traveling every weekend
Speaker 1: to each other. And an aunt of mine said to me,
Speaker 1: that's not a real marriage. And I thought to myself,
Speaker 1: this is why I never married, because I thought marriage
Speaker 1: had to be her definition, and in fact, she thought
Speaker 1: my marriage wasn't even a real marriage. And then, of course,
Speaker 1: after five years, Phil moved the show to New York.
Speaker 1: I moved myself to New York and we made a
Speaker 1: new life. But that wouldn't have been possible. I mean,
Speaker 1: even a man making the move. You know, when we
Speaker 1: went on the sixty minutes. Sixty minutes did a beautiful
Speaker 1: show on Phil on the Donna Hue Show, and I
Speaker 1: of course was interviewed for it, and he said to me,
Speaker 1: you know, he said, I don't know that it's right
Speaker 1: for a man. He said, maybe I'm old fashioned, but
Speaker 1: it's not the man that moves, it's the woman that moves.
Speaker 1: And I said, oh, Mike, you're not old fashioned, your
Speaker 1: man all and so. And I loved him because he
Speaker 1: left it in you know that I called the Neanderthal,
Speaker 1: but that really was. And Mike, Mike Wallace was an
Speaker 1: older man. I mean, if he were alive now, he'd
Speaker 1: be over a hundred years old. So for him, that
Speaker 1: was just a whole other world where men moved their
Speaker 1: jobs for a woman. You know. But the reason he
Speaker 1: moved it is that we talked about how could we
Speaker 1: make a life together. And Phil said, I can't make
Speaker 1: a career in in in Los Angeles. You know, I'm
Speaker 1: not interested, not interested in Hollywood personalities, you know. He
Speaker 1: put some on, but mostly he was in the world
Speaker 1: of politics and so forth. And I said, well, I
Speaker 1: can't work in Chicago. I mean the places where I
Speaker 1: could work our l A and New York. And so
Speaker 1: he said, well I could work in New York. So
Speaker 1: we actually chose New York. You know, we could have
Speaker 1: chosen Budapest. I mean, we've shows the place, but we
Speaker 1: both could work. That's what that decision was about. And
Speaker 1: ultimately it seems like you guys chose each other and Marlow,
Speaker 1: I have a question for you again before we go
Speaker 1: to Phil. And in the beginning of the John McEnroe
Speaker 1: Patty Smith, Uh you know section of the book there's
Speaker 1: a quote saying women are notorious are saying, oh, he's
Speaker 1: got potential, but potential is not good enough and says,
Speaker 1: marry the person, don't marry potential. When you and Phil
Speaker 1: began to court each other, was there anything that you
Speaker 1: saw your like, Okay, I know I love Phil, but
Speaker 1: there's some things that need to change. Or did you
Speaker 1: just accept him for who he was? No, we did
Speaker 1: not accept each other but who we were. I think
Speaker 1: we we fought pretty hard the first ten years of
Speaker 1: our marriage. I think because we were in a power struggle. Really,
Speaker 1: it wasn't that I wish that he was someone else.
Speaker 1: I just wish that he was more like me, and
Speaker 1: he wished that I was more like him, you know,
Speaker 1: that kind of thing. But but we we know, what
Speaker 1: are the interviews that I love in our book Judy
Speaker 1: VORs who's a great children's writer and also written books
Speaker 1: for adult as well. She and her husband Milton have
Speaker 1: been married for sixty years, and she said, you know,
Speaker 1: no matter how hard you try, he's never gonna be you,
Speaker 1: and you're never gonna be him. So you're just gonna
Speaker 1: have to take it as a given that you're different
Speaker 1: people and accommodate the differences. Don't try to change him.
Speaker 1: You don't have to compromise your soul for it. Just
Speaker 1: to accommodate who he is, accommodate who she is. And
Speaker 1: so we we didn't do that on our own, but
Speaker 1: she put it in the words that I had not
Speaker 1: put into words before, and that really is the truth.
Speaker 1: I wanted him to do things more my way. He
Speaker 1: wanted me to do things more his way. And we
Speaker 1: and being type A personalities, we're both bossy. We both
Speaker 1: ran our own shows and so we were used to
Speaker 1: people doing it the way we wanted to do it,
Speaker 1: and you had to get marriage. The other person doesn't
Speaker 1: do it the way you want to do it, you
Speaker 1: have to negotiate that, and you have to step back
Speaker 1: and say, okay. You know, he's more laid back than me.
Speaker 1: I'm a very assertive kind of personality, and so if
Speaker 1: there's a a challenge, you know, I'm the one that
Speaker 1: runs for the telephone, myth let's call this one, let's
Speaker 1: do that one, let's find a solution. He's the one
Speaker 1: that says, let's just think this out a second. Wait,
Speaker 1: wait a minute, what what what's the pros? What's the
Speaker 1: cons That used to annoy me? You know, I say,
Speaker 1: come on, we can we can do this, we can
Speaker 1: fix this, and he would be annoyed that I was
Speaker 1: imposedly going forward. But we learned through the years two
Speaker 1: appreciate each side of it. That a lot of the
Speaker 1: times it was better to step back and look at it,
Speaker 1: and a lot of times it was better to jump
Speaker 1: for a solution. But we had to negotiate that rather
Speaker 1: than insist that we do it immediately the way the
Speaker 1: other one wanted to do it, and then not pout
Speaker 1: about it afterward if we didn't get our way, so
Speaker 1: that that takes some doing, no question. And Phil, let's
Speaker 1: get to you for a second with as long as
Speaker 1: you all have been married, and before we dive in
Speaker 1: with some of the celebrity couples, y'all interviewed and shared
Speaker 1: stories with what advice would you would you have just
Speaker 1: in your personal experience for young married men, even like myself,
Speaker 1: my wife and I just celebrated five years um married
Speaker 1: and but just went through your experience, would you have
Speaker 1: to tell someone like me, your other guys out there, Well,
Speaker 1: you know, a marriage is a high point. I mean,
Speaker 1: the white dress, the rice, I mean it's so one
Speaker 1: you know, dancing, oh, your friends and family, Uh, you know,
Speaker 1: and you're married in a cloud of lust, and you know,
Speaker 1: suddenly things become pretty routine day by day and challenging. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I think it's important for people to anticipate this.
Speaker 1: It's amazing really that we get married way up here,
Speaker 1: higher than a kite, and then all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: you know, you have to take out the garbage. So
Speaker 1: you know, a lot of things, a lot of things
Speaker 1: change after you're married. And I think that the marriages
Speaker 1: that last are among our between two people who anticipate
Speaker 1: these peaks and valleys. There's no such thing as smooth
Speaker 1: sailing from beginning to end. Every we learned this in
Speaker 1: our travels meeting all these couples that you know. It's
Speaker 1: it's amazing that the ones, the ones you look on
Speaker 1: from the outside, appear to be so idyllic. After you
Speaker 1: to talk to him a little while, you begin to
Speaker 1: realize that they've all faced serious emotional difficulties that they
Speaker 1: did not anticipate. So you know, I hate to be
Speaker 1: the person who brings the dark cloud over everything, but
Speaker 1: I do think it helps if you anticipate the reality.
Speaker 1: I don't think it's a dark cloud. I think what
Speaker 1: you're saying is is important because you know, when you're
Speaker 1: walking down that aisle, all you can think of is
Speaker 1: how great this person is, and how great he makes
Speaker 1: you feel and she makes you feel, and and how
Speaker 1: you know you're going to be the couple that has
Speaker 1: the perfect marriage. Well, you can have a very perfect marriage,
Speaker 1: except the world comes in at you with disease, with addiction,
Speaker 1: with loss of money, with loss of job, with infidelity,
Speaker 1: with the sick child, with a with a child who
Speaker 1: dies with a sudden illness. I mean, all these things
Speaker 1: that that had happened with Jamie Lee Curtis was a
Speaker 1: drug addict. Her husband didn't even know that Neil Patrick
Speaker 1: Harris's husband, David Burka, had severe alcoholism. They didn't get
Speaker 1: married with those problems or knowing about those problems. Jesse
Speaker 1: Jackson went off and and had an affair with a
Speaker 1: woman and had a baby outside of the marriage. What's
Speaker 1: his name? Ciara Sedgwick and Kevin Bacon lost all their
Speaker 1: savings thirty years of savings in the Bernie Madoff scandal.
Speaker 1: Um And and uh, Judy Woodruff and al Al Hunt
Speaker 1: had three children and their first form was born was
Speaker 1: fine a bifida, which is a lifelong problem. And Michael J.
Speaker 1: Fox and Tracy Poland, three years into marriage, we were
Speaker 1: given his diagnosis of Parkinson's, which would be a lifelong situation.
Speaker 1: So all of these these things things happened. But you
Speaker 1: said a great thing, Philip, You said, well, you know, well,
Speaker 1: you you know about the did these people really wanted
Speaker 1: it to work? Yeah? That's uh, you know, you can
Speaker 1: see it feel in what they say, how they act.
Speaker 1: Um the marriages at last between two people who really
Speaker 1: want the marriage the last. I mean, it has to
Speaker 1: have the will there, and all of them did. I mean,
Speaker 1: that was one common denominator of all the couples that
Speaker 1: we interviewed. And they really and they went to marriage
Speaker 1: count I'm swing, they went to seminars which they had troubles.
Speaker 1: They really were invested in it. They weren't running for
Speaker 1: the exit sign when the big storm came. So when
Speaker 1: any of those things came, like infidelity, loss of money,
Speaker 1: loss of job, all that stuff came, illnesses, they didn't
Speaker 1: run away. And I got the feeling and I hadn't
Speaker 1: really thought of it before. After talking to all these
Speaker 1: couples and hearing how they went through each challenge, I thought,
Speaker 1: you know, I bet most people get a divorce or
Speaker 1: runaways because they're afraid they can't do it. They're afraid
Speaker 1: they don't have what it takes to face one of
Speaker 1: these big things. They just they don't. It's got to
Speaker 1: be because what you gotta get chicken, you gotta get scared.
Speaker 1: What else would it be? There's no question, And Janna
Speaker 1: and I have experienced a lot of that firsthand through addiction, infidelity,
Speaker 1: all of that in our marriage too, and you guys
Speaker 1: are kind of preaching exactly what we like to say
Speaker 1: as well, which is, you know, it's so it's much
Speaker 1: harder to stay than it is to leave, and you know,
Speaker 1: hitting the eject button and just walking away from these
Speaker 1: problems when you're not when like you said, Marlo Enfield,
Speaker 1: when you're scared of them or don't know how to
Speaker 1: handle them. It's ultimately, what Joanna and I found out
Speaker 1: is similar to the stories that you're sharing, is just
Speaker 1: we wanted it and we're going to do whatever we
Speaker 1: needed to to make it work. And it's such a
Speaker 1: you know, reassuring feeling like having couples to of the
Speaker 1: you know, celebrity stature that you've interviewed that you guys are,
Speaker 1: and understanding that the rest of us aren't alone. Like
Speaker 1: we all have our our crap, we all have something
Speaker 1: that we've dealt with. And that's what Jane and I
Speaker 1: really got from your book is just every story there's
Speaker 1: something everyone's marriage and just like with the with you know,
Speaker 1: the Michael j Fox and Michael and I were talking
Speaker 1: about that was like a game of goose bumps, goose
Speaker 1: bumps when he said, you know she was she was
Speaker 1: said in marriage you have to, you know, take it
Speaker 1: all the good with the bad, and you know, their
Speaker 1: issues become your issues. And with our marriages, you know,
Speaker 1: his addiction then became you know, I don't take it on,
Speaker 1: but it's still a part of our marriage now and
Speaker 1: it's something we have to to work together on. You know.
Speaker 1: I think when you go through it, it's like going
Speaker 1: through a fire. When you get up to the other
Speaker 1: side of the fire, you burned off a lot of
Speaker 1: crap that was there. You burned off all the unnecessary
Speaker 1: stuff that you fight about. Because once you go through
Speaker 1: a big thing, you know, you burned off the petty
Speaker 1: stuff and now you're now you're kind of naked. Now
Speaker 1: you now you can begin well. And yeah, and I
Speaker 1: wonder because you know, because our first five have been
Speaker 1: just it's been a battle. But I wonder, now, okay,
Speaker 1: are we gonna because I feel stronger than I did
Speaker 1: the day that I married him, and you know, even
Speaker 1: through all the discoveries and stuff, like, I feel we're
Speaker 1: stronger than we would have been if that didn't happen.
Speaker 1: In a weird way, like I hate that it's dead.
Speaker 1: For all the pain and all the turmoil, but I
Speaker 1: almost like I love him more because I know all
Speaker 1: the scars and because of the pain that like we've
Speaker 1: pushed through and we've endured that now we can communicate
Speaker 1: more here and you're in it together, and and and
Speaker 1: communicate together and then and also to have a set
Speaker 1: of boundaries that, uh, you know, I can't tolerate not
Speaker 1: being able to trust you. I have to know that
Speaker 1: you're my guy, you're my girl, know that you aren't
Speaker 1: going to wander away from me. I mean, those are
Speaker 1: commitments that we make to each other, you know, Uh,
Speaker 1: Phil and I, I mean we've been married forty years,
Speaker 1: so we have discussed all of those things. Was there
Speaker 1: something in your marriage where it was almost a breaking
Speaker 1: point where you just couldn't do it anymore? Well, I
Speaker 1: think for us it was really the being a part
Speaker 1: and those our careers were so important to us each individually,
Speaker 1: and we were able to say to each other, uh,
Speaker 1: you know verbally, I really respect your work. I really
Speaker 1: respect your work. I respect your ambition, aspect your ambition.
Speaker 1: But deep down we really didn't. Deep down we really
Speaker 1: were saying to ourselves, if you really loved me, you
Speaker 1: give that a little bit of that up if you
Speaker 1: really loved me, you would, you know, not do that
Speaker 1: so much. The truth is is that the the ambition
Speaker 1: that I felt for I mean, a small story about
Speaker 1: that is that at one point Phil was mad at
Speaker 1: me that I wasn't coming to Chicago more because I
Speaker 1: was working in Los Angeles and I was working as
Speaker 1: a producer and the star of these movies. So I
Speaker 1: wasn't able to just run away for five days. I
Speaker 1: would had to be there and so one weekend, you know,
Speaker 1: I would get there on a Friday night, leave on
Speaker 1: a Sunday night. Well why can't you come on Thursday?
Speaker 1: Why can't you leave on Monday? So he was he
Speaker 1: was questioning my real commitment, you know, to the marriage.
Speaker 1: And I said to him, and we were fighting a lot,
Speaker 1: and I said to him, I said, you know how
Speaker 1: ambitious you are. You know how much you've invested in
Speaker 1: your work. I mean, his first marriage really kind of
Speaker 1: fell apart because he was holding down three jobs and
Speaker 1: trying to make it. And you know, Gay didn't give
Speaker 1: as much of the marriage and as all into the
Speaker 1: family as one might have wanted. Anyway, I said, so
Speaker 1: you know how much you've sacrificed for your work. You
Speaker 1: know how ambitious you are, you know how much you
Speaker 1: put into it, how hard you've had to work to
Speaker 1: become who you are. I said, we'll put a skirt
Speaker 1: on it, and that's me. So if you don't understand
Speaker 1: that that that's me, then you can't get We can't
Speaker 1: get there from here, you know. And that really kind
Speaker 1: of was a turning point for us because you can
Speaker 1: say all the verbal oh, I really believe in you,
Speaker 1: I think you're really what your dreams are important. But
Speaker 1: if it's an inconvenience to you, you know, if you're
Speaker 1: you know, then then you're in trouble. It's got it's
Speaker 1: got to be. It's gotta be all the way. And
Speaker 1: that's what I saw in my parents marriages and all
Speaker 1: my uncle's marriages. Sure they love their wives, they wanted
Speaker 1: their wives to have happiness and all that, but not
Speaker 1: an inconvenience to them. Yeah. So I think I think
Speaker 1: our our ambition was a very It was a separating
Speaker 1: situation in for us for sure. And nowadays, how do
Speaker 1: you guys manage your conflict resolution when you have arguments,
Speaker 1: when things come up, what's y'all's secret or your key
Speaker 1: to kind of you know, resolving those Well, one of
Speaker 1: the we interviewed James Carville and Mary Madalen is that
Speaker 1: when you guys were fighting right before you um went
Speaker 1: to the interview. Oh that was to Yeah, that was
Speaker 1: so funny. I was like, I loved that moment. Sorry.
Speaker 1: It's like they're like, we were fighting and you're like, secret,
Speaker 1: we were fighting too, right, James Carville story is funny. Well,
Speaker 1: it's um. James Carville said, when you find yourself and
Speaker 1: your spouse going around and around on an issue that
Speaker 1: is really mickey mouse, when you step back, the thing
Speaker 1: I like to do is I say out loud to
Speaker 1: my spouse, let's kick that can down the road. And
Speaker 1: it sounds very cliche and corny until you do it
Speaker 1: at which I did. We did when we both came
Speaker 1: back off the road and we were going around and
Speaker 1: around on one of those things. Well, you said you
Speaker 1: did this, No I didn't, I said. You said, you know,
Speaker 1: back and forth, back and forth, and you know it
Speaker 1: usually ends up with somebody pouting and until said, oh,
Speaker 1: let's just kick this can down the road. And it's true,
Speaker 1: you can just say, oh this is stupid, let's stop it.
Speaker 1: So that's one way that's one. It's kind of a
Speaker 1: good tool. But I think really more important is that
Speaker 1: when you get to an impasse where he's holding ground
Speaker 1: and I'm holding ground, and we're both like stubbornly hanging
Speaker 1: on to what we each feel is the right way
Speaker 1: to do something or or the wrong way that the
Speaker 1: other one did, whatever it is, that impast somebody has
Speaker 1: to be the one to break the impast that that
Speaker 1: that's the only way a marriage is gonna work, is
Speaker 1: that at different times each of you will I call
Speaker 1: it take the walk across the desert like sadat did
Speaker 1: you know? Somebody has to walk across the desert and say, look,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry if it sounded like this, or I'm sorry
Speaker 1: that I did that. I sorry I made you feel bad?
Speaker 1: Or did I do something that made you feel bad?
Speaker 1: What are you so piste off about? Let's talk about
Speaker 1: what what are you feeling? You know? Not not that uh,
Speaker 1: As Peter Herman Mariska Hargeta Sumen said, you can't say
Speaker 1: I'm sorry if I made you feel bad. You know
Speaker 1: they feel bad. I'm sorry I made you feel bad.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry I said that that that made you feel bad.
Speaker 1: I was cranky, I was in a bad mood because
Speaker 1: I just got had a fight with my sister, or
Speaker 1: I got rejected for something I wanted. Whatever. You have
Speaker 1: to look into yourself because a lot of the times
Speaker 1: when people lash out at each other or pout or something,
Speaker 1: it's because something else was going on also, you know,
Speaker 1: but hanging on and holding a grudge, that's just absolutely
Speaker 1: a no no. You just have to give that up.
Speaker 1: It is just bad behavior. You're gonna get nowhere with it.
Speaker 1: Um being stubborn pouting. One of us used to pout
Speaker 1: a lot. I wonder who that was. I was a
Speaker 1: Hall of Fame powder, Yeah, he really, that's funny. It's
Speaker 1: it's interesting more. I feel like more men do that.
Speaker 1: I feel like we get defensive more. Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm a half Italian and half Lebanese, so
Speaker 1: I'm a very out there kind of person. You don't
Speaker 1: ever have to try to read my mood. It's pretty obvious. Um,
Speaker 1: and I don't pout, Harley. I'm curious though, because in
Speaker 1: the Viola interview, because this is something that UM I
Speaker 1: do as well. So you said that you're the chaser
Speaker 1: and you follow Phil around until you get him to
Speaker 1: hear you, and I feel like in our relationship it
Speaker 1: doesn't work because he shut off Phil. Do you actually
Speaker 1: hear her when she's going after you? Because I feel
Speaker 1: like I do that And Mike's like, I can't hear
Speaker 1: you right now, and I'm trying to be like, but
Speaker 1: listen to me, listen, listen, and he's just like, doesn't
Speaker 1: want anything to do with me. So I'm like, how
Speaker 1: do you make that work? Because I like that strategy
Speaker 1: and does it actually work well after all these years
Speaker 1: it works better. It's still his person it's still his
Speaker 1: personality to walk away from confrontation. It's still his personality.
Speaker 1: He doesn't it isn't even confrontation. He'll he'll confronted, but
Speaker 1: when he's feeling all tied up inside, he doesn't know
Speaker 1: how to get it out. He doesn't have that and
Speaker 1: the honey stopped me if I'm wrong, But you don't
Speaker 1: have a he doesn't have a built in path back
Speaker 1: to the sanity of the situation he has. He's dealing
Speaker 1: with it and sometimes he has to leave the room
Speaker 1: to deal with it, and I chase him and say,
Speaker 1: come on, let's talk this out. Come on, don't let's
Speaker 1: do this, let's do that, and you know, and I'll
Speaker 1: do that, and then sometimes I'll just leave him alone,
Speaker 1: and then a little while later he'll come to my
Speaker 1: study or something and say, Okay, I'm sorry. Okay, here's
Speaker 1: what I was thinking. He wants he I wanted to
Speaker 1: be over immediately. He can't get over it immediately, but
Speaker 1: he's gotten to a place now where he'll get over
Speaker 1: it quicker. Right. We don't have the same pathway to
Speaker 1: our own emotions and I nobody does. And everybody is
Speaker 1: different in that way. And so I think you've kind
Speaker 1: of given up to it a little bit. Oh, I'm
Speaker 1: a whole new person for four Y think it's I
Speaker 1: think it's really important. It's a very good question. How
Speaker 1: do you get past those two different Well, just you
Speaker 1: did it the other day. You're really mad at me
Speaker 1: about something and I and I got upset and I
Speaker 1: left the room. I said, well, this is this is
Speaker 1: just unfair. I'm not gonna listen to this, and I
Speaker 1: left the room and I went to my study. And
Speaker 1: about a half hour later, hour later, you came in
Speaker 1: and said, Okay, I'm sorry. I didn't mean that. And
Speaker 1: not everybody has to studies, so UM, yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: it's certainly it'slf does. But uh, you know, as you
Speaker 1: can see, I'm you know, I'm sort of a B
Speaker 1: personality when I'm with Marlowe. I think Phil, I think
Speaker 1: you and I are cut from the same cloth, because
Speaker 1: this sounds very, very familiar, right, honey. Well it's interesting though,
Speaker 1: because marlow what I found is that if I continue
Speaker 1: to chase Mike, he doesn't hear me, and because I'm
Speaker 1: almost looking, you know, to resolve or I want an apology.
Speaker 1: But when I just stop and I don't do that,
Speaker 1: he comes back so much quicker and then owns the
Speaker 1: stuff and he sees it like way sooner. If I'm
Speaker 1: trying to be like, didn't you can't you see that
Speaker 1: you did this A B, C, D and E and like.
Speaker 1: But when I just like, all right, go have whatever
Speaker 1: mood you want to have and I stay in the
Speaker 1: room where I go outside, he almost acknowledges it quicker
Speaker 1: and comes back quicker if I don't chase him. So
Speaker 1: that's kind of been looking for its exactly exactly. That's
Speaker 1: what I'm saying. You have to respect and accommodate the
Speaker 1: other person's ability to get to find the path back
Speaker 1: to their own sanity, because it's it's an insane moment
Speaker 1: when you get that kind of upset. You know, you're
Speaker 1: not you're not in your comfort zone. You've fallen out
Speaker 1: of your comfort zone. And again it's fear, you know,
Speaker 1: it doesn't know how to handle that particular emotion whatever
Speaker 1: it is, for sure. And and then in the Jamie
Speaker 1: Lee Curtis and Christopher guest, was it hatred? Was that
Speaker 1: the word? Yes? Okay, because at the beginning of the show,
Speaker 1: we we started talking about that because you know, I
Speaker 1: was chuckling, but also I'm like, I don't know, I've
Speaker 1: disliked Mike and he's disliked me many times in our
Speaker 1: short five years. But I don't know if I could
Speaker 1: say that I've that I hate him. I don't know,
Speaker 1: Like I just feel like, so I'm curious, have y'all
Speaker 1: have y'all felt that or or what? No? Actually, no,
Speaker 1: that That's why I said a word that I made
Speaker 1: her repeat it. Yeah, you know, she said that the
Speaker 1: that the psychiatrist said to her marriage depends on how
Speaker 1: much hatred you can bear something like that, And I thought,
Speaker 1: a toyler and how much hatred you can tolerate, and
Speaker 1: I thought, wow, hatred. No, I have never felt hatred
Speaker 1: or Phil. I've been really mad at I'm really piste
Speaker 1: off and want to kill him, but I haven't hated him.
Speaker 1: I love it like I wanted to kill too, But
Speaker 1: I still don't hate you exactly. Hey, it is a
Speaker 1: pretty strong word. I once asked Billy Graham on my show, Um,
Speaker 1: have you ever have you ever thought about divorce? And
Speaker 1: he said, divorce, never murder. Yes, that's perfect. Was there
Speaker 1: anyone with the forty couples that you interviewed? Was there
Speaker 1: anybody on your list that you weren't able to get
Speaker 1: in the book or it just scheduling didn't work out
Speaker 1: that you'd like to still have this conversation with in
Speaker 1: the future. Well, we wanted, We very much wanted to
Speaker 1: interview the Obama's and the Bushes. Uh that I'm I
Speaker 1: was just so interested. Um, you know, being famous is
Speaker 1: one thing, but being scrutinized every minute of the day
Speaker 1: is another. And I was just interested in how their
Speaker 1: marriages didn't grow or did grow, or you know what
Speaker 1: did that do? Because I know in our marriage when
Speaker 1: we were first married, I was a little scared off
Speaker 1: by the scrutiny that we were put under right away.
Speaker 1: I mean we were married about six months and and
Speaker 1: there were already reports that we were getting a divorce
Speaker 1: and people making up stories that we had seen a
Speaker 1: lawyer and you know, and none of it had happened.
Speaker 1: But it was like, wow, this is gonna be weird.
Speaker 1: You know, people just can make up things, thank god
Speaker 1: before social media. But it would appear, and you know,
Speaker 1: in in crumby papers like the Inquirer and stuff. But
Speaker 1: still it's out there. And what happens is it's out
Speaker 1: there in a Crumby newspaper. But then the next time
Speaker 1: you do an interview in a good newspaper, it'll say
Speaker 1: there's been reports of their getting a divorce. You said,
Speaker 1: but wait a minute. That was in a paper that
Speaker 1: says it has a story about a woman who gave
Speaker 1: birth to a whale. Why would you take that seriously? Um?
Speaker 1: So and they so they follow you around, you know,
Speaker 1: these stories. And so I didn't like the the scrutiny
Speaker 1: and the and the made up divorce stories at first.
Speaker 1: So I can imagine how you know, what that kind
Speaker 1: of life was doing. How does it how does it
Speaker 1: work on your marriage? Like for me, when there would
Speaker 1: be stories about us that were untrue, I wanted to
Speaker 1: immediately have a statement and have the press age and
Speaker 1: put out something. And Phil's personality was never complained, never explained.
Speaker 1: So we battled about that and I would say, yeah,
Speaker 1: but if we don't say anything, we don't defend ourselves,
Speaker 1: it will look like it's true. And he will say,
Speaker 1: don't You're just going to feed the story, never complain,
Speaker 1: never explain. Well, it turned out that I did it
Speaker 1: his way. I mean I decided I didn't do it
Speaker 1: his way to please him. I did it his way
Speaker 1: because I decided that he was right. It was contrary
Speaker 1: to what I was my impulse, but I thought about
Speaker 1: it and thought, he's right. No, I didn't do it
Speaker 1: just to please him, because then I would have resented it.
Speaker 1: I did it because I was convinced by his point
Speaker 1: of view. But but but you have to be open
Speaker 1: to it. I totally get that point. I think with
Speaker 1: us too. You know, things had come out in the
Speaker 1: public with us, and there was a point where I
Speaker 1: kind of wanted to talk about it more just because
Speaker 1: to set the narrative, and you know, and we kind
Speaker 1: of struggled on that a little bit um. So there's
Speaker 1: there's definitely positives and negatives to it, because you know,
Speaker 1: now that y'all have talked about your story, you're helping
Speaker 1: a lot of people too, you know, And I think
Speaker 1: that's that's kind of the silver lining to being married
Speaker 1: for forty years and sticking through it and having the
Speaker 1: in an mede, I guess in the very beginning of
Speaker 1: not sharing things, but then you know, now having your
Speaker 1: book and telling your story, that just shows you know
Speaker 1: what you all have been through and everything else. So
Speaker 1: I kind of love that as well. Yeah, and this
Speaker 1: may this may be a little bit of a cynical question,
Speaker 1: but with everyone that you interviewed, did you guys ever
Speaker 1: question their level of honesty when sharing such intimate stories
Speaker 1: or you know, ideas about their marriage. I don't know,
Speaker 1: did you. Well? I was shocked at how open everybody was,
Speaker 1: for sure. Well when they let us in, you know,
Speaker 1: when we'd go a knock on their door. I remember
Speaker 1: they looked at you, like, what what's your angle here? Right?
Speaker 1: And the minute I said something about our marriage, no
Speaker 1: matter how trivial, it just seemed to blow open a
Speaker 1: large door and they couldn't wait to talk about their marriage. So, yeah,
Speaker 1: I went into this thinking we do maybe minute thirty
Speaker 1: five minute interviews and how long did we three hours?
Speaker 1: It would be three hours. And you know, the book
Speaker 1: was originally supposed to be three fifty pages. It's six pages.
Speaker 1: And we had told the publisher that we expected that
Speaker 1: each chapter would be about words, which is a nice
Speaker 1: article length. But each chapter is five thousand words. Elton
Speaker 1: John is six thousand words, um. Because the stories were
Speaker 1: very rich, we had not expected them to be that interesting.
Speaker 1: And when we got to you know, we we obviously
Speaker 1: taped it, uh, and then we got the transcript back
Speaker 1: and we would go through it and circle, you know
Speaker 1: what we thought was really good, and there was just
Speaker 1: a lot that was so good. And then we started
Speaker 1: taking ourselves out of it in order to make them shorter.
Speaker 1: And then we realized, about we take ourselves out of it,
Speaker 1: it's not really honest as to what had happened. So
Speaker 1: then we put ourselves back in it, and they were
Speaker 1: just very long. And when we turned the book in,
Speaker 1: we thought for sure that our publisher at Harper's would
Speaker 1: ask us to cut it or to take some stories
Speaker 1: out in order to make it shorter. But she didn't,
Speaker 1: she wrote, She called us and said, I think these
Speaker 1: stories are very good and I don't want you to
Speaker 1: touch a word of it. So we didn't. We were
Speaker 1: very lucky. Yeah, we second that just from our experience
Speaker 1: of reading it, because it doesn't feel like a six
Speaker 1: page read at all. And it's like you said, if
Speaker 1: you guys took your part out or try to condense
Speaker 1: these stories, it wouldn't be the same, it wouldn't be
Speaker 1: as impactful. And so I just know from we're huge
Speaker 1: fans of it and what you guys did with this book.
Speaker 1: So yeah, and just again not feeling alone because sometimes
Speaker 1: I think, are we the only people that have struggled
Speaker 1: in our marriage? Were the only people that have had
Speaker 1: these issues? And then when I read stories of other
Speaker 1: couples and you, it's just like, wow, Okay, we're not alone,
Speaker 1: So thank you for having for other people and exactly.
Speaker 1: And you know what's really interesting is that you're the
Speaker 1: winner because half of us get divorced. So that's that's
Speaker 1: what's interesting. The statistics are, which was one of the
Speaker 1: reasons why we were interested in doing the book, The
Speaker 1: statistics are that half of us get divorced in this country,
Speaker 1: so the half of us that don't get divorced. Us you,
Speaker 1: the people in this book. We've had to go through
Speaker 1: a lot to burn off the bad stuff to be
Speaker 1: able to to be able to live with another person
Speaker 1: who's completely different from you. I mean, one of the
Speaker 1: things Jamie Lee Curtis said is that we are completely
Speaker 1: different from each other in every way. There's nothing And
Speaker 1: and Rob Ryaner said an interesting thing. He said, you
Speaker 1: have to work your own side of the street first,
Speaker 1: each of you, before you can come together as a couple.
Speaker 1: You've got to fix up all the stuff it's wrong
Speaker 1: with you. And then and then all the stuff that
Speaker 1: you dumped on the other side of the street too,
Speaker 1: So the stuff that I might have dumped on his
Speaker 1: side of the street, and then he dumped on my
Speaker 1: side of the street. So it's like double double clean
Speaker 1: up exactly each person. And and Ted Dancing and Mary
Speaker 1: Steamberge and talked about that as well. This is his
Speaker 1: third marriage, her second marriage. And I said to him,
Speaker 1: three marriages, where'd you get the optimism to get married
Speaker 1: a third time? And he and they've been married thirty years,
Speaker 1: so it's working. Um, he said, well, I had to
Speaker 1: change some things about myself, like I had to stop lying.
Speaker 1: He said, I was a liar. I said about what
Speaker 1: he said about everything, but what I was feeling. I
Speaker 1: was also unfaithful. But I didn't tell the truth about
Speaker 1: who I was because I wanted to be the big,
Speaker 1: the white knight on a white horse. But so I
Speaker 1: didn't tell what I was really feeling, my insecurities, all
Speaker 1: I kept all that away to look like I was
Speaker 1: better than I was. I had to learn to be
Speaker 1: real and vulnerable and say who I was so that
Speaker 1: I could, you know, not play games. He said in
Speaker 1: early on in my relationship with Mary, when I would
Speaker 1: start to play a game, she would look at me,
Speaker 1: and I could tell that this she could tell that
Speaker 1: it was a lie. She she would call me on it.
Speaker 1: You know, I had to be a better person. I
Speaker 1: had to be not a better person, to be a
Speaker 1: more honest person of who I was. She could love
Speaker 1: me who who I was. I didn't have to pretend
Speaker 1: to be somebody else. And I think that's we do
Speaker 1: that a lot to all of us, you know we
Speaker 1: Chris Rocks has a great line. He says, when you're dating,
Speaker 1: you're not really dating the real person you're you're dating
Speaker 1: the representation of the sitting out their representative, you know,
Speaker 1: their best self. But when you get married, you're gonna
Speaker 1: see all the other stuff that your representative didn't show before.
Speaker 1: And and then you learn to work through that and
Speaker 1: find those things either darling or attractive, or sensitive or
Speaker 1: sympathetic or downright unacceptable and you have to work through it,
Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, And that's just it. I mean, Ted's
Speaker 1: just what you're saying from Ted story mirrors kind of
Speaker 1: my own, and some I've a mantra for myself to
Speaker 1: remind myself when I have those moments. Is just you know,
Speaker 1: if if I thought the grass was greener, it's just
Speaker 1: gonna be the same story but a different cast. If
Speaker 1: I don't, if I'm not introspective, it's gonna the same
Speaker 1: thing is going to happen. It doesn't matter who my
Speaker 1: wife is, doesn't matter who my partner is, and so
Speaker 1: it's just gonna be the same thing that Janna and
Speaker 1: I try to talk about on our show and in
Speaker 1: the book that we're doing. Doing is just you know,
Speaker 1: like you guys are saying, you got clean your side
Speaker 1: of the street. It starts with you, right, why did
Speaker 1: you decide to do a show. So it actually started
Speaker 1: with just me UM and I had written a book
Speaker 1: UM kind of about things, and which you know, he
Speaker 1: was not ready for it, and he ripped it up
Speaker 1: and we got into a big old fight about it,
Speaker 1: and I was like, but I feel like we went
Speaker 1: through this so we could help people, and and he
Speaker 1: was still really stuck in a shame at the time.
Speaker 1: And so then I started this podcast and he came
Speaker 1: on as a guest, and I said, look, you don't
Speaker 1: have to say anything. We don't have to talk about addiction.
Speaker 1: At the time, no one knew about a sex addiction.
Speaker 1: And I was like, you just go at your own pace.
Speaker 1: We don't have to tell a soul. And it was
Speaker 1: what two episodes in where we talked about affairs, you know,
Speaker 1: me being new and twelfth that program of sex addiction
Speaker 1: and things just kind of took off, and you know,
Speaker 1: just we realized like, the same thing that we feel
Speaker 1: read y'all's book is what we got to feel as well,
Speaker 1: with people being like, oh my gosh, you know my
Speaker 1: husband's an addict as well, or because you gotta share this,
Speaker 1: we don't feel so alone we're dealing with infidelity and
Speaker 1: and so they kind of grew into what the show
Speaker 1: is now and it's you know, it can be challenging
Speaker 1: at times, but I think this the silver lining is
Speaker 1: knowing that we're able to help people, just as you
Speaker 1: guys are doing with your book too. And you know,
Speaker 1: now we have a book with HarperCollins as well as
Speaker 1: there are publishers too, and comes out September about the
Speaker 1: Good Fight and things that you know, we are by
Speaker 1: no means perfect or you know, have it all figured out. Shoot,
Speaker 1: you're fighting thirty minutes before this too, and it was
Speaker 1: just but here are just some of the things that
Speaker 1: we learned to keep fighting because you know, you gotta
Speaker 1: get in there and you gotta work it all out
Speaker 1: because you know, we have two beautiful kids and we
Speaker 1: want you know, we want to be good parents and
Speaker 1: good partners for each Really, it's really important to keep fighting,
Speaker 1: It really is. I mean, we know so many couples
Speaker 1: who never had a fight, you know, and they're divorced
Speaker 1: now because you're not telling if you're not disagreeing with
Speaker 1: your mate, then you're not telling the truth. People that
Speaker 1: are not born to peace in a pod. I mean,
Speaker 1: I I fight with my brother and sister I mean,
Speaker 1: you can't agree with people all the time, and if
Speaker 1: you don't let it out, then you have resentment. I mean.
Speaker 1: Deborah Roberts was married to Al Roker, talked about resentment
Speaker 1: that she felt that she gave up a lot of
Speaker 1: her career in order to take care of their children.
Speaker 1: He didn't ask her to do that. She made that
Speaker 1: decision to do that, but she resented the fact that
Speaker 1: he didn't do it. Well, that wasn't his fault. He
Speaker 1: didn't tell her to do it in the first place.
Speaker 1: But she felt as a woman, as a mother, that
Speaker 1: she had to give up a lot of her career.
Speaker 1: But she never talked about it. She just resented it.
Speaker 1: And then finally she got it out and they went
Speaker 1: into marriage counseling and so forth. But that's what happens.
Speaker 1: If you don't talk about it, it will fester and
Speaker 1: boil until it becomes impossible. Did you guys go to counseling.
Speaker 1: We've done more therapy, individual couples and intensive We've done
Speaker 1: it all in the last five years. That's great, but
Speaker 1: I've I'm more in love with them today that I
Speaker 1: than I was yesterday. So I like because of our struggle,
Speaker 1: like I love our struggle. It's been great. I think
Speaker 1: if you if you agree to go to counseling, that
Speaker 1: is a fabulous act of love. That's a person who
Speaker 1: really wants to make this happened to make the marriage laugh?
Speaker 1: Uh you know, because who the who wants to go
Speaker 1: and talk about it with a stranger. But if you
Speaker 1: agree to do that, uh, that you know, that's pretty
Speaker 1: pretty big evidence that you want this marriage. And we
Speaker 1: discovered that attitude and a lot of the a lot
Speaker 1: of the people the couples were interviewed, often it's one
Speaker 1: person that saves the marriage and makes it last by
Speaker 1: taking by by by bringing up the therapy. But but
Speaker 1: the couple, But the couple who then do it together
Speaker 1: like Ron and Show Howard and Brian Kranton and Robin
Speaker 1: Dearden and all of them who did it together, that
Speaker 1: became you know, that's what saves their marriage. And that's
Speaker 1: that's what's Phil said from the very beginning of his
Speaker 1: talk that we're having is that really what makes a
Speaker 1: marriage last is both people wanted to last and work
Speaker 1: for it, and and there's just no other way because
Speaker 1: there's no way for two individual people unless you're gonna
Speaker 1: marry a sponge. You know that that's that's gonna that's
Speaker 1: gonna work unless you both invest in it, really have
Speaker 1: to invest in it. And I think that's the beauty
Speaker 1: of it and and the fun of it. And and
Speaker 1: as you were saying, you love him more, you love
Speaker 1: him more because you do see his his frailties and
Speaker 1: his imperfections and his desire that for the love of
Speaker 1: the two of you, he's willing to solve those challenges.
Speaker 1: That's that's that's great. I mean that that really is
Speaker 1: I think that is what makes that's called love. That
Speaker 1: that is it. Well, see, we read about a lot
Speaker 1: of love in y'all's book What May Some Marriage Last?
Speaker 1: And so please everyone, please please please get this book.
Speaker 1: It's so so so good. Um and Marlow I'm from
Speaker 1: Michigan too, So Michigan, Michigan love right here and we
Speaker 1: love St. Jude. It's one of the most magical places ever.
Speaker 1: So thank you for everything you do. St Jude. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we um with within country music, We've we've been there
Speaker 1: a bunch um with the you know, the St. Jude
Speaker 1: radio thon. So just thank you for everything you do. Um, Phil,
Speaker 1: I love you. You are an inspiration both of you two.
Speaker 1: So thank you so much. Everyone will get what makes
Speaker 1: a marriage last awesome. Thank you so much. I really
Speaker 1: appreciate it. Okay, okay, love I mean I love them.
Speaker 1: I want to be in their next book. I just
Speaker 1: want to sit down with them and tell stories and
Speaker 1: have conversations. Oh for sure, Marlo just is my spirit animal.
Speaker 1: She really is. I of her. Um. But I hope
Speaker 1: you guys got a lot out of this. And there's
Speaker 1: just one thing I want to say too, because you
Speaker 1: said it's I think you said it's easier to leave,
Speaker 1: and I just want to say, because some people say
Speaker 1: when you say easier, simpler, m it says comparing the decisions,
Speaker 1: I gotta say, it would be really effing hard to leave.
Speaker 1: It takes a lot of kudos. I think to leave
Speaker 1: and to be a single parent. Sometimes it's if you yeah,
Speaker 1: like it's easier to stay. When there's because I just
Speaker 1: for the women that have like I can't like when
Speaker 1: I think about being a single parent. Sytimes when I'm like,
Speaker 1: go down to the divorce train. In my mind, I'm like, oh,
Speaker 1: I don't know if I want them every day by myself? No, No,
Speaker 1: for sure, I'm saying that I was talking about divorce
Speaker 1: in general. That's why because people think it's easier just
Speaker 1: to leave. Okay, that's what I'm saying generally. That's why
Speaker 1: it's divorced right in our countries because people have this
Speaker 1: misconception that it's just easier to leave. Oh, I don't
Speaker 1: want to go through this pain. I'm just gonna leave, Okay. Cool.
Speaker 1: I just wanted to make sure for those people out
Speaker 1: there to be like, wait a minute, no, no, no.
Speaker 1: I said that one time, and I got in a
Speaker 1: lot of trouble, so I was just protecting. I knew
Speaker 1: what you meant, right yeah, no, no, no, no, okay. Um,
Speaker 1: we'll just leave it with this. This is part of
Speaker 1: their book Um in the Tony and Brooke Adams Um,
Speaker 1: Brooke says the bottom line is, and I say this
Speaker 1: as a woman, a woman, Women are impossible and men
Speaker 1: are annoying. We'll leave it at that. Later