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Speaker 1: Swine Down with Janet Kramer and I have Heart Radio podcast.

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Speaker 1: All right, guy, So we're so excited for today's podcast

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Speaker 1: because we have two legends, Argina be on the show,

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Speaker 1: Phil Donna Hue and Marlo Thomas. H Phil for those

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Speaker 1: of you that don't know, and actually I had to,

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Speaker 1: I knew the name, Um, but he was basically the

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Speaker 1: Oprah before Oprah. He's the king of daytime talk for sure. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean he's one a ton of Emmy's UM for

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Speaker 1: Outstanding Talk Show. So, I mean he was, he was

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Speaker 1: the first two. Here's the o G. Yeah, you know,

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Speaker 1: and my parents have been here, my grandfather, um, you know,

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Speaker 1: this past week and we even asked them, We're like, hey,

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Speaker 1: do you guys know Phil Donahue, And everyone kind of

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Speaker 1: lit up. It was like, yeah, I used to watch

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Speaker 1: the heck out of that show. I always used to

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Speaker 1: watch it and this and that, and so, I mean

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Speaker 1: everybody knows Phil Donahue and his wife Marlo Thomas, who

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Speaker 1: was actually she was a guest on his show, and

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Speaker 1: that's kind of when everyone saw them, follow them in

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Speaker 1: love because everyone knew that they saw the spark. Um.

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Speaker 1: So she's an actress. Um, she's she was on a show. Actually,

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Speaker 1: I was walking today with one of my girlfriends and

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Speaker 1: she was on a show called That Girl. UM. And

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Speaker 1: they've been married for over forty years and they have

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Speaker 1: a book out UM on our same imprint with HarperCollins

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Speaker 1: and the books called What Makes a Marriage Last? Because

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Speaker 1: they've been married over forty years. And what they did

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Speaker 1: is they, UM, they took forty couples couples, UM, and

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Speaker 1: they basically interviewed them because they're great at that. They're

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Speaker 1: great interviewing obviously Phil and then you know, UM saying

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Speaker 1: with Marlowe. But they interviewed these couples and it was

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Speaker 1: so cool because you know, we have a crash course

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Speaker 1: in their book and we got to read it. UM

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Speaker 1: read a lot of it because we just got it

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Speaker 1: the other day, and just to kind of hear the

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Speaker 1: stories of some people that you know, I really look

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Speaker 1: up to, like Viola Davis and her husband, and you know, UM,

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Speaker 1: Kelly Rippa, Mark Nsuelo's, Jamie Lee Curtis and her husband,

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Speaker 1: and all the couples. They kind of have a requirement

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Speaker 1: for all the couples that they've been married UM a

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Speaker 1: certain amount of years or have been like they have

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Speaker 1: Elton John and David Furnish, who have been in a

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Speaker 1: domestic partnership for over fifteen years, married for the last

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Speaker 1: four to six years because of locality reasons, but they

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Speaker 1: have this kind of prerequisite for these couples, you know,

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Speaker 1: and especially I think all of us at one point

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Speaker 1: have been like, man, how does you know these people

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Speaker 1: who are of such celebrity status stay in like it's

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Speaker 1: always a genuine surprise when they see that, or even

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Speaker 1: I think so when you see a celebrity couple that

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Speaker 1: have been married for so long, Oh, for sure, you're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: how did they do it? You know, like you think

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Speaker 1: about your yourself. You're like, man, it's hard, and how

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Speaker 1: does someone like that do it? Yeah? For example, like

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Speaker 1: Michael J. Fox and Tracy you look at them and

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Speaker 1: you're like, man, how long? How do they make it work?

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Speaker 1: What was there? What was the secret? And I know, Mike,

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Speaker 1: I know you always have your headphones on when we travel,

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Speaker 1: but whenever I do see, you know, a sweet old couple,

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Speaker 1: or when I'm on the plane traveling by myself, I'm

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Speaker 1: always like, how long have you been married? And then

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Speaker 1: I'll always say like, Okay, what's your secret? And whenever

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Speaker 1: I play shows, I usually sing love and then I

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Speaker 1: celebrate whoever has had the longest marriage. And so you know,

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Speaker 1: some of these people are thirty forty years and I'm

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Speaker 1: always like, what's your secret? And I haven't forget this

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Speaker 1: one guy, he's like over medication, over medicating and I

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Speaker 1: was like no, um. And one of them was just

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Speaker 1: like the wife was like we're best friends. Yeah he's

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Speaker 1: like he's like yeah, okay. But that's the cool thing

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Speaker 1: about this book though, because I mean, they get these

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Speaker 1: people to these celebrity couples to really open up and

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Speaker 1: share things that they've been through, what has helped it

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Speaker 1: work for them? And it's just what's great about it is,

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Speaker 1: you know a lot of things said Jan and I

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Speaker 1: have shared. You know, you guys have commented and responded

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Speaker 1: saying because of what we share, you don't feel so alone.

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Speaker 1: And this book like epitomizes that where it's like, man,

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Speaker 1: if all these couples that a lot of us look

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Speaker 1: up to, you know, and hold with such high regard,

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Speaker 1: and they go through what they go through and all

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Speaker 1: of their marriages, they all look different. Not one of

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Speaker 1: them is the same. Now you know, some of them

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Speaker 1: have similar beliefs, but some I'm gonna have polar opposite beliefs.

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Speaker 1: And certain things like you know, the the classic debate

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Speaker 1: of going to bed angry versus not going to bed angry,

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Speaker 1: and I mean, it's it's amazing. Yeah. One of the

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Speaker 1: things in UM Ray Romano and his wife um and

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Speaker 1: A story is Ray says it's good to have the

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Speaker 1: same outlook, the same values. UM. But then it's also,

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Speaker 1: and he goes, I'm just speaking for ourselves, it's also

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Speaker 1: that we're compatible. She's that person. I'm this person. I'm

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Speaker 1: this person who performs and needs attention. She's that person

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Speaker 1: who doesn't feel neglected by this person. So I mean,

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Speaker 1: especially in this business, the pieces have to fit that way.

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Speaker 1: And I think about it's just like, you know, who's

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Speaker 1: your person? Have you found your person? Are you with

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Speaker 1: your person? You know, as a person, because like with

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Speaker 1: the race story, he's like, I need attention and I

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Speaker 1: need someone, I need laughs, and I need someone to

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Speaker 1: just be that supportive stay at home mom, you know,

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Speaker 1: and and and rock and I need to like feel

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Speaker 1: like I'm you know, a funny, funny person. And it's

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Speaker 1: and she's that person for him. So it's like, what

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Speaker 1: is it like? So I'll ask you, like, what makes

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Speaker 1: you that person? Or me be that person? Or maybe

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Speaker 1: I'm not you are you are my person? And I

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Speaker 1: think that's something that you find over time, because maybe

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Speaker 1: some people who are newly together, newly married might give

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Speaker 1: a fluffy answer, but I think you start to realize

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Speaker 1: when you go through the day to day, the monotony

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Speaker 1: and the grinding of marriage and having a family, the

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Speaker 1: little things of of how you balance each other out

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Speaker 1: and how much you know you and I've commented how

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Speaker 1: much we balanced each other out in the day to

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Speaker 1: day stuff, you know, with certain things. And it's because

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Speaker 1: of that that that even that simple stuff reassures me.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, this is my person. I was like, because

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Speaker 1: if I had somebody like me, it wouldn't be nearly

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Speaker 1: as passionate, nearly as magical, and I wouldn't be a

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Speaker 1: better person, you know what I mean. And kind of

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Speaker 1: to that topic, there's something on John mcenroon and Patty

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Speaker 1: Smith's story. You know, it even starts off the chapter

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Speaker 1: where there's a quote it says women are notorious for saying, oh,

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Speaker 1: he's got the potential, but potential is not good enough,

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Speaker 1: marry the person. Don't marry potential. And you know, I

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Speaker 1: want to ask Phil and Marlow about that question too,

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Speaker 1: but it gets your thinking. It's like in Ray Romano's

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Speaker 1: case and his wife, Um, you know how many of

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Speaker 1: us out there are marrying based on potential? You know,

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Speaker 1: our people accepting? Can people accept who's in front of them? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: People will grow, but you can't ask for this drastic change. Yes,

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Speaker 1: I I do fear though that, And I know that

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Speaker 1: I've been um where I've almost thought I could change

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Speaker 1: the person, you know, And I think because I think

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Speaker 1: we as women, and I'm not saying to categorize just us,

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Speaker 1: but I feel like I think a lot of women

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Speaker 1: can be like, oh I can change that, or like no,

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Speaker 1: like I'll be the one he doesn't do this with,

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Speaker 1: or I'll be the one like to change that, and

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Speaker 1: when it kind of hits you in the face, it's like, no, no,

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Speaker 1: you won't. And you might help them grow and be

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Speaker 1: a better person, kind of like you're doing for me,

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Speaker 1: So that could be for sure the case. But to

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Speaker 1: just straight up change, like if they're gonna stop smoking

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Speaker 1: marijuana because they know I hate marijuana. It's like, well,

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Speaker 1: I mean to to that point. I mean, I think

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Speaker 1: men even look at women in that regard where we

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Speaker 1: kind of put that power in you as well. Where

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Speaker 1: I always told myself back when I was single, it's like,

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Speaker 1: when I get married, I won't you know, mess around anymore.

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Speaker 1: It's like, because the woman will change me. It'll be

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Speaker 1: because of that interesting, you know what I mean, Like

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Speaker 1: I put such high you know, expectations on that as well,

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Speaker 1: even though as you and I found out, has nothing

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Speaker 1: to do with you in my situation at least, So

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Speaker 1: it's just interesting, if you know, I think it's important.

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Speaker 1: I think that's an important thing to kind of touch on.

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Speaker 1: And I can't wait again to talk to Phil and

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Speaker 1: Marlow about it. Um on those kind of expectations, but

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Speaker 1: you want to take a break and get them one, Okay,

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Speaker 1: So we are waiting on Marlow and Phil. Are there

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Speaker 1: any ones that any relationships from the Brian Cranson um

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Speaker 1: and his wife or there's member Deepak and Chopra they're

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Speaker 1: in there as well. Um another great couple that Um Lily,

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Speaker 1: there's Lily Tomlin and Jane Wagner Sully that Captain Chip

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Speaker 1: and Joanna Ted Danson Mary. I always wondered how their

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Speaker 1: relationship because there's just Billy, Janice, Crystal Jay and Simon Smith,

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Speaker 1: Kevin Bacon, Kira Sedwick. I'm just I'm so like, I

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Speaker 1: just I hope everyone gets this book because it's it's

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Speaker 1: awesome and I'm you know, we're only kind of a

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Speaker 1: little more than a half in and I'm just so

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Speaker 1: enjoying it. But is there one that you just really

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Speaker 1: loved reading? I think, uh, you know, content point earlier

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Speaker 1: about how can someone of that stature, that lifestyle being

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Speaker 1: a committed marriage and relationship for however many years they

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Speaker 1: have and Llo cool J is one of those. They've

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Speaker 1: been married for twenty five years. Wow. And he man

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Speaker 1: in the height of his career. Yeah, I mean they met.

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Speaker 1: They met when they were just teens. He had one

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Speaker 1: record out, he was at the beginning of his career,

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Speaker 1: so he hadn't really hit it like main mainstream yet.

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Speaker 1: And there's only a two year period that they were

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Speaker 1: apart from each other, but that was still when they

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Speaker 1: were just dating. They weren't even married yet. So any

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Speaker 1: takeaways from that one, I think just their maturity talking

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Speaker 1: about their relationship, it's just the way they talk to

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Speaker 1: each other the way they talk about their marriage. There's

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Speaker 1: just such kind of mutual respect there that you know,

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Speaker 1: they value what each other is saying. Um, you know,

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Speaker 1: because that's a cool thing about the book. It gives

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Speaker 1: a lot of dialogue. So in the book too, it'll say,

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Speaker 1: you'll see the actual dialogue of what they said. So, yeah,

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Speaker 1: of the conversation, so to have like Phil says this,

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Speaker 1: and then you know Locol James, who's he goes by Todd?

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Speaker 1: Todd says this, Simone says this, Mama says this, Toddy,

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Speaker 1: I never knew that. To take away, the beginning of

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Speaker 1: chapter feels like, so what do I call him? Like

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Speaker 1: Ello cool j J? And his assistant was like, now

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Speaker 1: it's call him Todd. What was that shark movie? Elcal

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Speaker 1: jameson deep? What what was that? Oh? Deep bluesy deeplu.

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Speaker 1: Wasn't there a song that he had in there? Oh? God,

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Speaker 1: was so starting me crazy? IMNA look it up. It

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Speaker 1: was so bad, it was good, It was so bad,

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Speaker 1: it was good. What about for you? What which one

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Speaker 1: stood out so far? Um? Oh my gosh, well, I

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Speaker 1: would say Michael J. Fox is kind of made me

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Speaker 1: a little sad. Really, Well, let me know he's just here.

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Speaker 1: I'll pull up one of the quotes that he they

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Speaker 1: talked about. But obviously you know, um, he got diagnosed

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Speaker 1: a couple Yeah, I mean it's been I don't want

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Speaker 1: to misquote it, but it's been at least fifteen years,

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Speaker 1: hasn't it since he's been diagnosed with Parkinson's um. And

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Speaker 1: she actually got Marlowe got she cried after she left

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Speaker 1: their interview and because she just saw the beauty um

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Speaker 1: one of the things that she wrote, and I'll tell

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Speaker 1: you right now, I'm going to my little dog ear thing.

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Speaker 1: And she said, um, well, first of all, Tracy said,

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Speaker 1: in marriage you have to take it all the good

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Speaker 1: with the bad, and if you love somebody, you deal

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Speaker 1: with whatever it is they're dealing with. Their issues become

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Speaker 1: their issues. And I really took a lot from that

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Speaker 1: because that's so true. I mean, especially in the vows

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Speaker 1: when you marry someone, it's until death drew us part

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Speaker 1: signals in health and sickness and in health, and you

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Speaker 1: know that's exactly a thing in marriage. You have to

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Speaker 1: take it all the good with the bad. If you

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Speaker 1: love somebody, you deal with whatever it is they're dealing

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Speaker 1: with their issues become your issues. And you know, just

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Speaker 1: with sickness or within addiction, or within compulsive this or personality,

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Speaker 1: like your whatever issue that you have or start having

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Speaker 1: in a marriage becomes your spouse's issue. Now you don't

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Speaker 1: have to take it on, but it's still it's it's

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Speaker 1: it's their choice whether or not to be a part

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Speaker 1: of it, to take it on. And you know that

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Speaker 1: that kind of brings me to the question that we've

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Speaker 1: gotten a lot, and it's like, how do you know

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Speaker 1: to stay? How do you know it's worth it? And

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Speaker 1: just you know, thinking of that quote and what we've

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Speaker 1: talked about is even with that mindset of it becomes

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Speaker 1: you're cross to bear your burden to be not not

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Speaker 1: saying it necessarily from a negative place, but it's, uh,

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Speaker 1: it still takes both people, you know. So it's it's

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Speaker 1: one of those things where it's not like, well, I'm married,

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Speaker 1: I just have to deal with this. Yeah, And she says,

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Speaker 1: Michael and Tracy showed me to the door. This is

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Speaker 1: Marlowe speaking. And I began the short walk home. I

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Speaker 1: hadn't taken more than a few steps before I began

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Speaker 1: to cry. What I had witnessed for the past ninety

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Speaker 1: minutes was the very heart of the marital bond. It

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Speaker 1: was uncanny to me and it remains so today that

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Speaker 1: love and pain, joy and sadness, the best and the worst,

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Speaker 1: can coexist so closely, and yet with such grace. Michael's

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Speaker 1: illness is always there. The movement he has little control

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Speaker 1: over is there. His disease is in their marriage, and

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Speaker 1: their marriage is in his disease. They are braided as

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Speaker 1: a given, and that braid is made of love and

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Speaker 1: commitment and steel. It filled me with love for them,

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Speaker 1: and it filled me with love for my own husband.

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Speaker 1: This is marriage. And I just remember when I when

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Speaker 1: I read that the other day, I was just like,

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Speaker 1: it gave me chills because that's so true. I mean,

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Speaker 1: through illness, through all of it. That is a part

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Speaker 1: of the marriage. And you take on these It's almost

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Speaker 1: like when we talk about in our book by the baggage,

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Speaker 1: Like it's not saying that's baggage, but it is in

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Speaker 1: a sense where you take on some persons maybe emotional

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Speaker 1: past childhood wounds or that those become part of the marriage.

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Speaker 1: And it's just yeah, it just made me really reflect

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Speaker 1: a lot about you. Know our situation and addiction and

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Speaker 1: and it's just because that is you know, it's it's

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Speaker 1: it's it's our issue now, it's not just yours. And

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Speaker 1: again I don't take it on, but it is something

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Speaker 1: that we do together as a team. Um yes, yeah,

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Speaker 1: but you know you also yes, yes, it affects but

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Speaker 1: at the same time, like it's there, and um, how

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Speaker 1: do I say this, Like I'm not trying to it

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Speaker 1: affects you, but it's not your responsibility. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: there you go. And I'm not like I don't play

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Speaker 1: like even though some would say I play victim, I

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Speaker 1: don't like I'm not playing victim to it. It's just

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Speaker 1: it's there and we acknowledge it. But it's still part

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Speaker 1: of staying and knowing things, just like you know that

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Speaker 1: I I don't know, what's one thing that you know

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Speaker 1: is one of my issues? Your perfect time? Oh my god,

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Speaker 1: shut up? No, but I'm serious, you know, Like it's okay,

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Speaker 1: We've it's almost like the sign up sheet. It's here,

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Speaker 1: we've signed up for it. We we didn't sign up

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Speaker 1: for it, but it's there, and this is marriage and

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Speaker 1: we have to navigate it together. Like for me it

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Speaker 1: would be compromising on your timeline. So like with your

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Speaker 1: timeline of things, you want things done, like there's no

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Speaker 1: better time than the present. That's an issue exactly. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: it's drop everything and do it now, you know, and

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Speaker 1: so but it's but again that's why I talked about earlier,

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Speaker 1: where we balance each other. It's like there's still a

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Speaker 1: priority of things, like this certain thing can wait till

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Speaker 1: tomorrow or can wait till later. It doesn't have to

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Speaker 1: be done right now. We don't have to stretch about

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Speaker 1: it right now, we don't have to overthink this situation.

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Speaker 1: Right now. We can cross certain bridges when we get

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Speaker 1: to them right. So that's where I realized back. But

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Speaker 1: also at the same time, at moments I am too

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Speaker 1: laws I fare so you'll get those things in my

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Speaker 1: head or get it, you know, higher on my priority

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Speaker 1: list because it does need to get down or whatever

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Speaker 1: it is. So yeah, for sure, and I also think too,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'll give myself a little more and I'll say,

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Speaker 1: you know, one of the issues that you have to

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Speaker 1: deal without me is is from my past to where

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Speaker 1: sometimes I can maybe portray out on you unfairly. So

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Speaker 1: just like when we said earlier, like childhood wounds or

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Speaker 1: for mind, mostly like adolescent, but there can be certain

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Speaker 1: things where it can Unfortunately you take the brunt of

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Speaker 1: it because of you know, things that I'm still trying

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Speaker 1: to to work through through you know, and in our

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Speaker 1: relationship and stuff to do better and not to like

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Speaker 1: it's not not put your face on it, you know,

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Speaker 1: for sure, I appreciate that. Um. Also, Kelly Rippa and

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Speaker 1: Mark and Suelos, they were also in the book, and

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Speaker 1: I love during their thing too. Right when they got married,

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Speaker 1: she through the ring like they were over. So there's

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Speaker 1: some juicy stuff in there too. It's so good. Um,

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Speaker 1: but let's take one more break and hopefully we'll be

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Speaker 1: able to get them on. So talking about all this

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Speaker 1: stuff kind of made me think of something I was

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Speaker 1: on our our buddy Nick Wood six podcast. Um, you know,

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Speaker 1: meet him and his brother a kind of having some

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Speaker 1: dad talk, uh not too long ago, and we're talking

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Speaker 1: about relationships and stuff, and I kind of said something

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Speaker 1: making a point of I feel like when someone has

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Speaker 1: asked a question, why do you love your partner, why

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Speaker 1: do you love your your spouse or whoever? If someone

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Speaker 1: answers quickly, then it's surface level interesting because it's easier

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Speaker 1: to say, because love, as you and I have found out,

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Speaker 1: it's more than just a feeling. It's it's a concept.

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Speaker 1: It is a feeling, but there's so much more attached

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Speaker 1: to it. It's respect, it's understanding, its forgiveness, it's there's

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Speaker 1: so much where it's more than just Oh, why do

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Speaker 1: you love Jane? Oh she's beautiful, she's hard working, she's

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Speaker 1: this Like sometimes sometimes when I asked that question, it's

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Speaker 1: it's almost hard to put into words, because how do

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Speaker 1: you put into words everything we've been through and all

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Speaker 1: the reasons that I love you induce into single adjectives,

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Speaker 1: Like it's difficult when you really love somebody, when you're

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Speaker 1: really committed in working at the relationship that you're in.

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Speaker 1: And I think what you're reading what Marlow was saying

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Speaker 1: about Michael J. Fox's story at the end of that

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Speaker 1: was so beautiful and that had me thinking about it.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, when she was like, this is marriage, like

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Speaker 1: braided together and all of this stuff, I was like,

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Speaker 1: it's so much more than these surface level adjectives and

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Speaker 1: why we love each other. So I just thought what

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Speaker 1: Marlo said was beautiful and it just kind of had

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Speaker 1: that It reminded me of that topic that I've talked

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Speaker 1: about with Nick. So, what did you come to the

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Speaker 1: conclusion of on why I Love You? That would take

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Speaker 1: a whole episode, honey, were you able to think about anything?

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Speaker 1: She's got her fishing rout out fishing right now for

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Speaker 1: just curious, like if anything, like, because that's what's a

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Speaker 1: problem to like what if you couldn't find anything? Like

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Speaker 1: what if you're like like, that's a bummer too, when

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Speaker 1: when you start to when you don't really when you

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Speaker 1: can't say why you love your spouse and not must

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Speaker 1: be the worst feeling. Because I've gotten there with I've

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Speaker 1: gotten there with relationships before, but like why do I like,

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Speaker 1: I don't even think I love you? And that like

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Speaker 1: that realization is it's crazy. So I mean just think like,

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Speaker 1: if someone's listening right now, I'm thinking about, Okay, what

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Speaker 1: are the reasons like why do I love my husband?

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Speaker 1: And if you're sitting there and you're just going like that,

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Speaker 1: that's sad. That's that's almost a sad realization. That's a

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Speaker 1: that's a great a great point, and it's it. I'm

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Speaker 1: sure there's people out there that even if they thought

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Speaker 1: about it, right now like, Oh, why do I love

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Speaker 1: my boyfriend or my significant other whoever they might? Actually

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Speaker 1: I don't know, which is why I want to go

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Speaker 1: thinking like that just sparked um when I was reading

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Speaker 1: this book the other day with Jamie Lee Curtis and

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Speaker 1: her husband, Um Christopher Guest, and she said, Jamie goes,

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Speaker 1: the secret to marriage is how much hatred can your

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Speaker 1: marriage actually survive? And Marlowe actually goes hatred and Jamie says, yes,

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Speaker 1: the idea that you wouldn't hate the other person is crazy.

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Speaker 1: I think what happens is that people have an idealized agreement.

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Speaker 1: They go into this thing with all the best intentions,

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Speaker 1: and at some point I think they start hating some things,

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Speaker 1: and then they get really terrified and they leave. And

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Speaker 1: what I'm saying is if our contribution to your book

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Speaker 1: about marriage is the word hatred, then both of us,

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Speaker 1: I think, will feel really good. I'm not saying that

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Speaker 1: we have a perfect marriage. We don't. I don't think

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Speaker 1: there is one. But I think what people want to

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Speaker 1: know is that the other people. This is huge, but

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Speaker 1: I think what people want to know is that other

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Speaker 1: people struggle and that life is hard. It's the reason

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Speaker 1: that quote from The Princess Bride is so profound. Life

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Speaker 1: is pain highness. Anyone who says differently is selling something.

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Speaker 1: And so I think people actually want to know that

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Speaker 1: other people have struggled. And then her husband said and

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Speaker 1: that they're not alone. And I love this too, because

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Speaker 1: Jamie Lee Curtis is twenty or sober. Shease. There's another

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Speaker 1: quote I learned from recovery. If you stay on the bus,

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Speaker 1: the scenery will change. That basically means that feelings come

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Speaker 1: and go, and they can change from one day to

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Speaker 1: the next. You may hate your spouse one day and

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Speaker 1: the next day you don't hate them. But you wake

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Speaker 1: up and it's a new day and a fresh start.

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Speaker 1: The scenery has changed. And to end all this, Jamie goes,

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Speaker 1: what's the secret to staying married? Don't leave? Boom. That's awesome.

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Speaker 1: That's like Mike drop right there. Look, I mean I

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Speaker 1: get people sometimes I have no choice but to leave

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Speaker 1: because I truly do believe that if there's just one

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Speaker 1: person working in the marriage, it's not gonna last. And

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Speaker 1: we talked about that a lot in our book, If

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Speaker 1: Fight It's Which, By the way, pre order you can

416
00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:21,880
Speaker 1: pre order Janna and Mike dot com. But it's two

417
00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:23,639
Speaker 1: people have to do the work. But there's gonna be

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Speaker 1: sometimes where you might have to pick up the slack

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Speaker 1: for the other person and vice versa. But I do

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Speaker 1: you know the hatred word is just you know because

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Speaker 1: there might be a tow back to that question. There

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Speaker 1: might be a time when you're thinking, do I even

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Speaker 1: love my spouse right now? Well? I think and that

424
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:47,160
Speaker 1: that's where it goes into this the idea. But between

425
00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:50,159
Speaker 1: like and love, right it's like, I don't like you

426
00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:52,560
Speaker 1: right now, but but you know I still love you

427
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:56,040
Speaker 1: because to Jamie. To Jamie encouraged the point, it's like,

428
00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:58,199
Speaker 1: I don't like you today, but I'm gonna stay on

429
00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:01,680
Speaker 1: the bus because in theory, I'm gonna love. I'm gonna

430
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:03,800
Speaker 1: love you tomorrow or the next day or the you

431
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:06,960
Speaker 1: know what I mean. Like, so you don't always have

432
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:09,080
Speaker 1: to like each other, because God knows we don't always

433
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:11,920
Speaker 1: like each other. I just my mom always told me

434
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:13,800
Speaker 1: that hate was such a strong word and to never hate,

435
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:15,840
Speaker 1: like anytime I ever said I hate her my mom

436
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:17,919
Speaker 1: my mom My mom ground me if I said the

437
00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:20,639
Speaker 1: word hate. I was not allowed to say the word hate.

438
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:24,080
Speaker 1: Like it was just because you know as little girls,

439
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:26,000
Speaker 1: You're like, I hate you. It's like my mom would

440
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,600
Speaker 1: slap me and send me up to my room. Seriously,

441
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:30,400
Speaker 1: I would get grounded for the word hate. So hate

442
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,399
Speaker 1: kind of I'm like, heye is such an such a

443
00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:37,600
Speaker 1: scary word to me that I'm like, I don't know

444
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:39,360
Speaker 1: if I could ever say to you I hate you,

445
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:45,119
Speaker 1: even though there are plenty of times I in the

446
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:49,600
Speaker 1: dark days I've know I I would may even called

447
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:52,520
Speaker 1: you every other F bomb and a hole in the world,

448
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:54,520
Speaker 1: But I don't think I could actually say I h

449
00:25:54,600 --> 00:26:00,879
Speaker 1: a t eu. She spilled it out of I'm just saying, like,

450
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:03,480
Speaker 1: I just like, that's just such a strong word to me.

451
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:08,080
Speaker 1: For sure. I respect your beliefs, you're like, but I

452
00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:13,240
Speaker 1: hate you. I hated you, No, not at all. It's

453
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:15,919
Speaker 1: interesting though, it is interesting, but I get it, Like,

454
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:19,520
Speaker 1: I just I think for me, like maybe would make

455
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 1: me feel better, is like I've just liked you plenty

456
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:25,040
Speaker 1: and you've just liked me plenty. The hates just a little.

457
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:29,640
Speaker 1: But it's interesting. How much hate can your marriage survive? Well,

458
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:32,360
Speaker 1: let's talk to Phil and Marlow about it. Get them

459
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:47,800
Speaker 1: on and uh, I can't wait all right for all

460
00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:50,600
Speaker 1: of our listeners. We've been teasing this all episode, and

461
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:53,760
Speaker 1: we're so so, so privileged and excited to have the

462
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:57,320
Speaker 1: wonderful Phil Donahue and Marlowe Thomas on our show today.

463
00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:02,080
Speaker 1: Thank you both so much for being here. Thank you,

464
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you. So we have been reading your

465
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 1: book UM like crazy. It's been. It's such a great book.

466
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:11,720
Speaker 1: I love the concept how you guys went about it,

467
00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:15,920
Speaker 1: but I kind of wanted to dive first into UM

468
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:19,600
Speaker 1: to Marlow. Marlow, I was laughing when I was reading

469
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:21,560
Speaker 1: your part where you said that you didn't really even

470
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 1: know if you wanted to get married, and then you

471
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:25,919
Speaker 1: said marriage is like living with a jailer. You have

472
00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:29,159
Speaker 1: to please, and I was just like reading at the pools,

473
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:31,160
Speaker 1: I was like, I was just dying laughing because I'm

474
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:33,800
Speaker 1: because you were just like you had no interest at

475
00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:37,960
Speaker 1: all in getting married. No, never, never, never. Well, you know,

476
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:41,680
Speaker 1: I grew up with my father was one of ten

477
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 1: Lebanese kids, nine of them were boys, So I saw

478
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 1: nine Lebanese marriages dominated by these men, I mean, and

479
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:52,959
Speaker 1: they were very loving. They weren't abusive or anything. They

480
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 1: were very loving husbands and loving dads. But they were

481
00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:00,440
Speaker 1: the boss and the wives were in service to them.

482
00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:05,120
Speaker 1: And I mean, so that's a model I saw. And

483
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:09,359
Speaker 1: on my mother's side there she was one of five Italians,

484
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:12,400
Speaker 1: four girls and a boy, and they all had those

485
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:15,720
Speaker 1: same marriages. So to me, that was the definition of

486
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:19,440
Speaker 1: marriage and it was completely resistible. I mean, I thought, well,

487
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:22,840
Speaker 1: that's just not for me. And I wasn't upset about

488
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:24,800
Speaker 1: or anything. I just knew that's where I didn't want

489
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:28,159
Speaker 1: to go. And uh, I had another line, which was

490
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:31,200
Speaker 1: marriages like at a vacuum cleaner and stick stick it

491
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:33,639
Speaker 1: to your ear and it sucks out all your energy

492
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:37,639
Speaker 1: and ambition. That's my other one. So nobody thought I

493
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:40,680
Speaker 1: would ever get married, and I don't think I would

494
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:43,920
Speaker 1: have had had you fallen in love with phil on

495
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:50,120
Speaker 1: Um National Television. Yeah, well that didn't hurt. But also

496
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,840
Speaker 1: the world had changed a little bit, you know, and

497
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 1: the definition of marriage relaxed, and I could see that

498
00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:04,680
Speaker 1: I could, with the right partner, defined my own marriage

499
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 1: that it didn't have to be that really strict place

500
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:12,240
Speaker 1: that I saw, but it could be a roomy enough

501
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 1: place to embrace two whole careers, too, whole lives. Because

502
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:21,520
Speaker 1: I had my own life, my own name, my own house,

503
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 1: my own career, as did Phil. So we were very

504
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:28,680
Speaker 1: much the mirror image of each other in terms of

505
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:32,000
Speaker 1: personality and ambition and so forth. And that wouldn't have

506
00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:34,960
Speaker 1: been possible. I could never have married a man like

507
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 1: my father or my uncle's. It just what wouldn't have happened.

508
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:41,800
Speaker 1: So uh so a lot had to happen. I had

509
00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:44,280
Speaker 1: to I had to meet the right man who I

510
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:48,400
Speaker 1: could define my marriage with, and uh and make a

511
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:51,800
Speaker 1: new model. And it's funny. The first five years of

512
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:55,160
Speaker 1: our marriage we lived in two different cities. I was

513
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:58,360
Speaker 1: working in l A. He was working in Chicago during

514
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:00,600
Speaker 1: the Donna Hue Show. I was produced, seeing like about

515
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:04,280
Speaker 1: twelve movies in those five years. And he was raising

516
00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:06,480
Speaker 1: his four sons. He had custody of his four boys.

517
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:09,600
Speaker 1: They were in school. So we were traveling every weekend

518
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:12,920
Speaker 1: to each other. And an aunt of mine said to me,

519
00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:16,880
Speaker 1: that's not a real marriage. And I thought to myself,

520
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:20,920
Speaker 1: this is why I never married, because I thought marriage

521
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:24,320
Speaker 1: had to be her definition, and in fact, she thought

522
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,520
Speaker 1: my marriage wasn't even a real marriage. And then, of course,

523
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:30,360
Speaker 1: after five years, Phil moved the show to New York.

524
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 1: I moved myself to New York and we made a

525
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:35,720
Speaker 1: new life. But that wouldn't have been possible. I mean,

526
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:39,400
Speaker 1: even a man making the move. You know, when we

527
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:43,040
Speaker 1: went on the sixty minutes. Sixty minutes did a beautiful

528
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 1: show on Phil on the Donna Hue Show, and I

529
00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:48,440
Speaker 1: of course was interviewed for it, and he said to me,

530
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:50,760
Speaker 1: you know, he said, I don't know that it's right

531
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:53,640
Speaker 1: for a man. He said, maybe I'm old fashioned, but

532
00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:57,320
Speaker 1: it's not the man that moves, it's the woman that moves.

533
00:30:57,360 --> 00:30:59,360
Speaker 1: And I said, oh, Mike, you're not old fashioned, your

534
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:03,280
Speaker 1: man all and so. And I loved him because he

535
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:06,160
Speaker 1: left it in you know that I called the Neanderthal,

536
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:09,400
Speaker 1: but that really was. And Mike, Mike Wallace was an

537
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 1: older man. I mean, if he were alive now, he'd

538
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:14,760
Speaker 1: be over a hundred years old. So for him, that

539
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:17,760
Speaker 1: was just a whole other world where men moved their

540
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:22,440
Speaker 1: jobs for a woman. You know. But the reason he

541
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:25,320
Speaker 1: moved it is that we talked about how could we

542
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 1: make a life together. And Phil said, I can't make

543
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:32,120
Speaker 1: a career in in in Los Angeles. You know, I'm

544
00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:35,520
Speaker 1: not interested, not interested in Hollywood personalities, you know. He

545
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:37,440
Speaker 1: put some on, but mostly he was in the world

546
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:40,200
Speaker 1: of politics and so forth. And I said, well, I

547
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:44,280
Speaker 1: can't work in Chicago. I mean the places where I

548
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:46,360
Speaker 1: could work our l A and New York. And so

549
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:48,400
Speaker 1: he said, well I could work in New York. So

550
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:51,239
Speaker 1: we actually chose New York. You know, we could have

551
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 1: chosen Budapest. I mean, we've shows the place, but we

552
00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:57,520
Speaker 1: both could work. That's what that decision was about. And

553
00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:00,720
Speaker 1: ultimately it seems like you guys chose each other and Marlow,

554
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 1: I have a question for you again before we go

555
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 1: to Phil. And in the beginning of the John McEnroe

556
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:08,920
Speaker 1: Patty Smith, Uh you know section of the book there's

557
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 1: a quote saying women are notorious are saying, oh, he's

558
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:13,720
Speaker 1: got potential, but potential is not good enough and says,

559
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:17,360
Speaker 1: marry the person, don't marry potential. When you and Phil

560
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 1: began to court each other, was there anything that you

561
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:23,240
Speaker 1: saw your like, Okay, I know I love Phil, but

562
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:25,280
Speaker 1: there's some things that need to change. Or did you

563
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:29,400
Speaker 1: just accept him for who he was? No, we did

564
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:31,480
Speaker 1: not accept each other but who we were. I think

565
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:34,720
Speaker 1: we we fought pretty hard the first ten years of

566
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:39,280
Speaker 1: our marriage. I think because we were in a power struggle. Really,

567
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 1: it wasn't that I wish that he was someone else.

568
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:45,600
Speaker 1: I just wish that he was more like me, and

569
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 1: he wished that I was more like him, you know,

570
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 1: that kind of thing. But but we we know, what

571
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:54,680
Speaker 1: are the interviews that I love in our book Judy

572
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:59,440
Speaker 1: VORs who's a great children's writer and also written books

573
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:02,680
Speaker 1: for adult as well. She and her husband Milton have

574
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:05,480
Speaker 1: been married for sixty years, and she said, you know,

575
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:09,040
Speaker 1: no matter how hard you try, he's never gonna be you,

576
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:11,960
Speaker 1: and you're never gonna be him. So you're just gonna

577
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,680
Speaker 1: have to take it as a given that you're different

578
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:19,880
Speaker 1: people and accommodate the differences. Don't try to change him.

579
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:22,959
Speaker 1: You don't have to compromise your soul for it. Just

580
00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:26,680
Speaker 1: to accommodate who he is, accommodate who she is. And

581
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:30,280
Speaker 1: so we we didn't do that on our own, but

582
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:32,640
Speaker 1: she put it in the words that I had not

583
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:35,560
Speaker 1: put into words before, and that really is the truth.

584
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:38,440
Speaker 1: I wanted him to do things more my way. He

585
00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:40,760
Speaker 1: wanted me to do things more his way. And we

586
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:45,520
Speaker 1: and being type A personalities, we're both bossy. We both

587
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:48,640
Speaker 1: ran our own shows and so we were used to

588
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 1: people doing it the way we wanted to do it,

589
00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:55,480
Speaker 1: and you had to get marriage. The other person doesn't

590
00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:57,120
Speaker 1: do it the way you want to do it, you

591
00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:00,560
Speaker 1: have to negotiate that, and you have to step back

592
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:04,480
Speaker 1: and say, okay. You know, he's more laid back than me.

593
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:08,279
Speaker 1: I'm a very assertive kind of personality, and so if

594
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:12,120
Speaker 1: there's a a challenge, you know, I'm the one that

595
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:14,799
Speaker 1: runs for the telephone, myth let's call this one, let's

596
00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:17,279
Speaker 1: do that one, let's find a solution. He's the one

597
00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:20,000
Speaker 1: that says, let's just think this out a second. Wait,

598
00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:22,279
Speaker 1: wait a minute, what what what's the pros? What's the

599
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:25,200
Speaker 1: cons That used to annoy me? You know, I say,

600
00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:26,759
Speaker 1: come on, we can we can do this, we can

601
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:29,279
Speaker 1: fix this, and he would be annoyed that I was

602
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:35,040
Speaker 1: imposedly going forward. But we learned through the years two

603
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:38,759
Speaker 1: appreciate each side of it. That a lot of the

604
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:42,680
Speaker 1: times it was better to step back and look at it,

605
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:46,320
Speaker 1: and a lot of times it was better to jump

606
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:50,239
Speaker 1: for a solution. But we had to negotiate that rather

607
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:54,080
Speaker 1: than insist that we do it immediately the way the

608
00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:56,360
Speaker 1: other one wanted to do it, and then not pout

609
00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:59,480
Speaker 1: about it afterward if we didn't get our way, so

610
00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:03,759
Speaker 1: that that takes some doing, no question. And Phil, let's

611
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:06,759
Speaker 1: get to you for a second with as long as

612
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:08,359
Speaker 1: you all have been married, and before we dive in

613
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:11,400
Speaker 1: with some of the celebrity couples, y'all interviewed and shared

614
00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:14,680
Speaker 1: stories with what advice would you would you have just

615
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:18,120
Speaker 1: in your personal experience for young married men, even like myself,

616
00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:22,280
Speaker 1: my wife and I just celebrated five years um married

617
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:25,000
Speaker 1: and but just went through your experience, would you have

618
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:28,319
Speaker 1: to tell someone like me, your other guys out there, Well,

619
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:34,399
Speaker 1: you know, a marriage is a high point. I mean,

620
00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:38,399
Speaker 1: the white dress, the rice, I mean it's so one

621
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 1: you know, dancing, oh, your friends and family, Uh, you know,

622
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:51,200
Speaker 1: and you're married in a cloud of lust, and you know,

623
00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:57,880
Speaker 1: suddenly things become pretty routine day by day and challenging. Yeah,

624
00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:02,239
Speaker 1: And I think it's important for people to anticipate this.

625
00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:07,200
Speaker 1: It's amazing really that we get married way up here,

626
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:10,920
Speaker 1: higher than a kite, and then all of a sudden,

627
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:14,239
Speaker 1: you know, you have to take out the garbage. So

628
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:18,360
Speaker 1: you know, a lot of things, a lot of things

629
00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:23,520
Speaker 1: change after you're married. And I think that the marriages

630
00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:30,160
Speaker 1: that last are among our between two people who anticipate

631
00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:35,640
Speaker 1: these peaks and valleys. There's no such thing as smooth

632
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:41,960
Speaker 1: sailing from beginning to end. Every we learned this in

633
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:47,839
Speaker 1: our travels meeting all these couples that you know. It's

634
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:52,960
Speaker 1: it's amazing that the ones, the ones you look on

635
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:59,440
Speaker 1: from the outside, appear to be so idyllic. After you

636
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:01,560
Speaker 1: to talk to him a little while, you begin to

637
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:08,480
Speaker 1: realize that they've all faced serious emotional difficulties that they

638
00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:12,800
Speaker 1: did not anticipate. So you know, I hate to be

639
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:16,840
Speaker 1: the person who brings the dark cloud over everything, but

640
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:21,320
Speaker 1: I do think it helps if you anticipate the reality.

641
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:23,440
Speaker 1: I don't think it's a dark cloud. I think what

642
00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:27,000
Speaker 1: you're saying is is important because you know, when you're

643
00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:30,319
Speaker 1: walking down that aisle, all you can think of is

644
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:33,560
Speaker 1: how great this person is, and how great he makes

645
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:36,479
Speaker 1: you feel and she makes you feel, and and how

646
00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:38,919
Speaker 1: you know you're going to be the couple that has

647
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:42,440
Speaker 1: the perfect marriage. Well, you can have a very perfect marriage,

648
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:47,480
Speaker 1: except the world comes in at you with disease, with addiction,

649
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:52,680
Speaker 1: with loss of money, with loss of job, with infidelity,

650
00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:55,680
Speaker 1: with the sick child, with a with a child who

651
00:37:55,760 --> 00:38:00,440
Speaker 1: dies with a sudden illness. I mean, all these things

652
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:03,840
Speaker 1: that that had happened with Jamie Lee Curtis was a

653
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:07,280
Speaker 1: drug addict. Her husband didn't even know that Neil Patrick

654
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 1: Harris's husband, David Burka, had severe alcoholism. They didn't get

655
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:15,759
Speaker 1: married with those problems or knowing about those problems. Jesse

656
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:18,480
Speaker 1: Jackson went off and and had an affair with a

657
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:23,399
Speaker 1: woman and had a baby outside of the marriage. What's

658
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:26,480
Speaker 1: his name? Ciara Sedgwick and Kevin Bacon lost all their

659
00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:30,719
Speaker 1: savings thirty years of savings in the Bernie Madoff scandal.

660
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:35,680
Speaker 1: Um And and uh, Judy Woodruff and al Al Hunt

661
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:39,000
Speaker 1: had three children and their first form was born was

662
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:44,160
Speaker 1: fine a bifida, which is a lifelong problem. And Michael J.

663
00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:47,719
Speaker 1: Fox and Tracy Poland, three years into marriage, we were

664
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:52,279
Speaker 1: given his diagnosis of Parkinson's, which would be a lifelong situation.

665
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:55,719
Speaker 1: So all of these these things things happened. But you

666
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:58,680
Speaker 1: said a great thing, Philip, You said, well, you know, well,

667
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:01,640
Speaker 1: you you know about the did these people really wanted

668
00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:04,560
Speaker 1: it to work? Yeah? That's uh, you know, you can

669
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:07,960
Speaker 1: see it feel in what they say, how they act.

670
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:13,720
Speaker 1: Um the marriages at last between two people who really

671
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:17,600
Speaker 1: want the marriage the last. I mean, it has to

672
00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:21,000
Speaker 1: have the will there, and all of them did. I mean,

673
00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:24,680
Speaker 1: that was one common denominator of all the couples that

674
00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:27,400
Speaker 1: we interviewed. And they really and they went to marriage

675
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:30,680
Speaker 1: count I'm swing, they went to seminars which they had troubles.

676
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:35,200
Speaker 1: They really were invested in it. They weren't running for

677
00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:39,520
Speaker 1: the exit sign when the big storm came. So when

678
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:42,440
Speaker 1: any of those things came, like infidelity, loss of money,

679
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:46,240
Speaker 1: loss of job, all that stuff came, illnesses, they didn't

680
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:49,439
Speaker 1: run away. And I got the feeling and I hadn't

681
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:52,439
Speaker 1: really thought of it before. After talking to all these

682
00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:55,839
Speaker 1: couples and hearing how they went through each challenge, I thought,

683
00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:59,279
Speaker 1: you know, I bet most people get a divorce or

684
00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:02,800
Speaker 1: runaways because they're afraid they can't do it. They're afraid

685
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:06,759
Speaker 1: they don't have what it takes to face one of

686
00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:10,000
Speaker 1: these big things. They just they don't. It's got to

687
00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:13,760
Speaker 1: be because what you gotta get chicken, you gotta get scared.

688
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:18,080
Speaker 1: What else would it be? There's no question, And Janna

689
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:23,440
Speaker 1: and I have experienced a lot of that firsthand through addiction, infidelity,

690
00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:25,879
Speaker 1: all of that in our marriage too, and you guys

691
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:29,040
Speaker 1: are kind of preaching exactly what we like to say

692
00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:32,359
Speaker 1: as well, which is, you know, it's so it's much

693
00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:35,040
Speaker 1: harder to stay than it is to leave, and you know,

694
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:37,839
Speaker 1: hitting the eject button and just walking away from these

695
00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:40,240
Speaker 1: problems when you're not when like you said, Marlo Enfield,

696
00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:42,120
Speaker 1: when you're scared of them or don't know how to

697
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:45,120
Speaker 1: handle them. It's ultimately, what Joanna and I found out

698
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 1: is similar to the stories that you're sharing, is just

699
00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:49,319
Speaker 1: we wanted it and we're going to do whatever we

700
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:51,040
Speaker 1: needed to to make it work. And it's such a

701
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:56,839
Speaker 1: you know, reassuring feeling like having couples to of the

702
00:40:57,080 --> 00:41:00,120
Speaker 1: you know, celebrity stature that you've interviewed that you guys are,

703
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:05,120
Speaker 1: and understanding that the rest of us aren't alone. Like

704
00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:08,880
Speaker 1: we all have our our crap, we all have something

705
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:11,600
Speaker 1: that we've dealt with. And that's what Jane and I

706
00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:14,840
Speaker 1: really got from your book is just every story there's

707
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:18,000
Speaker 1: something everyone's marriage and just like with the with you know,

708
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:19,879
Speaker 1: the Michael j Fox and Michael and I were talking

709
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:21,719
Speaker 1: about that was like a game of goose bumps, goose

710
00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:23,360
Speaker 1: bumps when he said, you know she was she was

711
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:25,799
Speaker 1: said in marriage you have to, you know, take it

712
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:28,239
Speaker 1: all the good with the bad, and you know, their

713
00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:30,719
Speaker 1: issues become your issues. And with our marriages, you know,

714
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:33,960
Speaker 1: his addiction then became you know, I don't take it on,

715
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:36,319
Speaker 1: but it's still a part of our marriage now and

716
00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:40,759
Speaker 1: it's something we have to to work together on. You know.

717
00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:44,399
Speaker 1: I think when you go through it, it's like going

718
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:47,319
Speaker 1: through a fire. When you get up to the other

719
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:49,799
Speaker 1: side of the fire, you burned off a lot of

720
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:54,240
Speaker 1: crap that was there. You burned off all the unnecessary

721
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:57,120
Speaker 1: stuff that you fight about. Because once you go through

722
00:41:57,120 --> 00:41:59,880
Speaker 1: a big thing, you know, you burned off the petty

723
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:03,080
Speaker 1: stuff and now you're now you're kind of naked. Now

724
00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:06,400
Speaker 1: you now you can begin well. And yeah, and I

725
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:09,359
Speaker 1: wonder because you know, because our first five have been

726
00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:13,160
Speaker 1: just it's been a battle. But I wonder, now, okay,

727
00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:16,399
Speaker 1: are we gonna because I feel stronger than I did

728
00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:18,760
Speaker 1: the day that I married him, and you know, even

729
00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:23,040
Speaker 1: through all the discoveries and stuff, like, I feel we're

730
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:25,439
Speaker 1: stronger than we would have been if that didn't happen.

731
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:28,200
Speaker 1: In a weird way, like I hate that it's dead.

732
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:30,400
Speaker 1: For all the pain and all the turmoil, but I

733
00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:33,040
Speaker 1: almost like I love him more because I know all

734
00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:36,279
Speaker 1: the scars and because of the pain that like we've

735
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:40,759
Speaker 1: pushed through and we've endured that now we can communicate

736
00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:43,799
Speaker 1: more here and you're in it together, and and and

737
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:48,000
Speaker 1: communicate together and then and also to have a set

738
00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:54,600
Speaker 1: of boundaries that, uh, you know, I can't tolerate not

739
00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:57,680
Speaker 1: being able to trust you. I have to know that

740
00:42:57,719 --> 00:43:00,759
Speaker 1: you're my guy, you're my girl, know that you aren't

741
00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:03,799
Speaker 1: going to wander away from me. I mean, those are

742
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:08,520
Speaker 1: commitments that we make to each other, you know, Uh,

743
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:10,800
Speaker 1: Phil and I, I mean we've been married forty years,

744
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:14,000
Speaker 1: so we have discussed all of those things. Was there

745
00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:16,920
Speaker 1: something in your marriage where it was almost a breaking

746
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:20,200
Speaker 1: point where you just couldn't do it anymore? Well, I

747
00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:23,080
Speaker 1: think for us it was really the being a part

748
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:27,319
Speaker 1: and those our careers were so important to us each individually,

749
00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:31,800
Speaker 1: and we were able to say to each other, uh,

750
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:36,080
Speaker 1: you know verbally, I really respect your work. I really

751
00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:39,000
Speaker 1: respect your work. I respect your ambition, aspect your ambition.

752
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:43,640
Speaker 1: But deep down we really didn't. Deep down we really

753
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:47,680
Speaker 1: were saying to ourselves, if you really loved me, you

754
00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:49,880
Speaker 1: give that a little bit of that up if you

755
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:53,799
Speaker 1: really loved me, you would, you know, not do that

756
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:59,000
Speaker 1: so much. The truth is is that the the ambition

757
00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:01,520
Speaker 1: that I felt for I mean, a small story about

758
00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:04,759
Speaker 1: that is that at one point Phil was mad at

759
00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:08,560
Speaker 1: me that I wasn't coming to Chicago more because I

760
00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:10,759
Speaker 1: was working in Los Angeles and I was working as

761
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:13,600
Speaker 1: a producer and the star of these movies. So I

762
00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:16,680
Speaker 1: wasn't able to just run away for five days. I

763
00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:20,560
Speaker 1: would had to be there and so one weekend, you know,

764
00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:22,279
Speaker 1: I would get there on a Friday night, leave on

765
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:24,760
Speaker 1: a Sunday night. Well why can't you come on Thursday?

766
00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:27,719
Speaker 1: Why can't you leave on Monday? So he was he

767
00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:31,400
Speaker 1: was questioning my real commitment, you know, to the marriage.

768
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:34,239
Speaker 1: And I said to him, and we were fighting a lot,

769
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:37,080
Speaker 1: and I said to him, I said, you know how

770
00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:40,440
Speaker 1: ambitious you are. You know how much you've invested in

771
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:43,719
Speaker 1: your work. I mean, his first marriage really kind of

772
00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:47,160
Speaker 1: fell apart because he was holding down three jobs and

773
00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:49,560
Speaker 1: trying to make it. And you know, Gay didn't give

774
00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:51,480
Speaker 1: as much of the marriage and as all into the

775
00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:54,960
Speaker 1: family as one might have wanted. Anyway, I said, so

776
00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:57,880
Speaker 1: you know how much you've sacrificed for your work. You

777
00:44:57,920 --> 00:44:59,640
Speaker 1: know how ambitious you are, you know how much you

778
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:02,719
Speaker 1: put into it, how hard you've had to work to

779
00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:06,200
Speaker 1: become who you are. I said, we'll put a skirt

780
00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:10,120
Speaker 1: on it, and that's me. So if you don't understand

781
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:13,640
Speaker 1: that that that's me, then you can't get We can't

782
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:17,080
Speaker 1: get there from here, you know. And that really kind

783
00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:20,440
Speaker 1: of was a turning point for us because you can

784
00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:24,000
Speaker 1: say all the verbal oh, I really believe in you,

785
00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:27,200
Speaker 1: I think you're really what your dreams are important. But

786
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:30,560
Speaker 1: if it's an inconvenience to you, you know, if you're

787
00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:33,600
Speaker 1: you know, then then you're in trouble. It's got it's

788
00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:36,799
Speaker 1: got to be. It's gotta be all the way. And

789
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:40,319
Speaker 1: that's what I saw in my parents marriages and all

790
00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:43,560
Speaker 1: my uncle's marriages. Sure they love their wives, they wanted

791
00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:46,319
Speaker 1: their wives to have happiness and all that, but not

792
00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:53,520
Speaker 1: an inconvenience to them. Yeah. So I think I think

793
00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:59,319
Speaker 1: our our ambition was a very It was a separating

794
00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:03,719
Speaker 1: situation in for us for sure. And nowadays, how do

795
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:07,120
Speaker 1: you guys manage your conflict resolution when you have arguments,

796
00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:10,640
Speaker 1: when things come up, what's y'all's secret or your key

797
00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:15,680
Speaker 1: to kind of you know, resolving those Well, one of

798
00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:22,520
Speaker 1: the we interviewed James Carville and Mary Madalen is that

799
00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:25,600
Speaker 1: when you guys were fighting right before you um went

800
00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:31,120
Speaker 1: to the interview. Oh that was to Yeah, that was

801
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:33,360
Speaker 1: so funny. I was like, I loved that moment. Sorry.

802
00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:36,160
Speaker 1: It's like they're like, we were fighting and you're like, secret,

803
00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:43,240
Speaker 1: we were fighting too, right, James Carville story is funny. Well,

804
00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:47,840
Speaker 1: it's um. James Carville said, when you find yourself and

805
00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:53,000
Speaker 1: your spouse going around and around on an issue that

806
00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:59,200
Speaker 1: is really mickey mouse, when you step back, the thing

807
00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:02,920
Speaker 1: I like to do is I say out loud to

808
00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:07,560
Speaker 1: my spouse, let's kick that can down the road. And

809
00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:10,879
Speaker 1: it sounds very cliche and corny until you do it

810
00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:15,680
Speaker 1: at which I did. We did when we both came

811
00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:17,719
Speaker 1: back off the road and we were going around and

812
00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:19,400
Speaker 1: around on one of those things. Well, you said you

813
00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:21,560
Speaker 1: did this, No I didn't, I said. You said, you know,

814
00:47:21,640 --> 00:47:23,960
Speaker 1: back and forth, back and forth, and you know it

815
00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:27,239
Speaker 1: usually ends up with somebody pouting and until said, oh,

816
00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:30,680
Speaker 1: let's just kick this can down the road. And it's true,

817
00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:33,200
Speaker 1: you can just say, oh this is stupid, let's stop it.

818
00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:36,719
Speaker 1: So that's one way that's one. It's kind of a

819
00:47:36,719 --> 00:47:42,359
Speaker 1: good tool. But I think really more important is that

820
00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:47,520
Speaker 1: when you get to an impasse where he's holding ground

821
00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:52,000
Speaker 1: and I'm holding ground, and we're both like stubbornly hanging

822
00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:55,120
Speaker 1: on to what we each feel is the right way

823
00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:57,920
Speaker 1: to do something or or the wrong way that the

824
00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:02,720
Speaker 1: other one did, whatever it is, that impast somebody has

825
00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:06,239
Speaker 1: to be the one to break the impast that that

826
00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:09,719
Speaker 1: that's the only way a marriage is gonna work, is

827
00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:14,040
Speaker 1: that at different times each of you will I call

828
00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:17,600
Speaker 1: it take the walk across the desert like sadat did

829
00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:22,560
Speaker 1: you know? Somebody has to walk across the desert and say, look,

830
00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:25,920
Speaker 1: I'm sorry if it sounded like this, or I'm sorry

831
00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:28,600
Speaker 1: that I did that. I sorry I made you feel bad?

832
00:48:29,719 --> 00:48:32,040
Speaker 1: Or did I do something that made you feel bad?

833
00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:34,960
Speaker 1: What are you so piste off about? Let's talk about

834
00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:39,680
Speaker 1: what what are you feeling? You know? Not not that uh,

835
00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:44,200
Speaker 1: As Peter Herman Mariska Hargeta Sumen said, you can't say

836
00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:47,239
Speaker 1: I'm sorry if I made you feel bad. You know

837
00:48:47,360 --> 00:48:50,200
Speaker 1: they feel bad. I'm sorry I made you feel bad.

838
00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:53,839
Speaker 1: I'm sorry I said that that that made you feel bad.

839
00:48:53,880 --> 00:48:56,560
Speaker 1: I was cranky, I was in a bad mood because

840
00:48:56,600 --> 00:49:00,200
Speaker 1: I just got had a fight with my sister, or

841
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:03,560
Speaker 1: I got rejected for something I wanted. Whatever. You have

842
00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:06,760
Speaker 1: to look into yourself because a lot of the times

843
00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:11,000
Speaker 1: when people lash out at each other or pout or something,

844
00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:14,400
Speaker 1: it's because something else was going on also, you know,

845
00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:19,400
Speaker 1: but hanging on and holding a grudge, that's just absolutely

846
00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:21,560
Speaker 1: a no no. You just have to give that up.

847
00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:25,480
Speaker 1: It is just bad behavior. You're gonna get nowhere with it.

848
00:49:26,080 --> 00:49:31,080
Speaker 1: Um being stubborn pouting. One of us used to pout

849
00:49:31,120 --> 00:49:37,000
Speaker 1: a lot. I wonder who that was. I was a

850
00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:41,640
Speaker 1: Hall of Fame powder, Yeah, he really, that's funny. It's

851
00:49:41,719 --> 00:49:43,680
Speaker 1: it's interesting more. I feel like more men do that.

852
00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:47,960
Speaker 1: I feel like we get defensive more. Yeah, I don't know.

853
00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:51,400
Speaker 1: You know, I'm a half Italian and half Lebanese, so

854
00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:54,640
Speaker 1: I'm a very out there kind of person. You don't

855
00:49:54,680 --> 00:49:58,520
Speaker 1: ever have to try to read my mood. It's pretty obvious. Um,

856
00:49:58,880 --> 00:50:02,440
Speaker 1: and I don't pout, Harley. I'm curious though, because in

857
00:50:02,480 --> 00:50:06,000
Speaker 1: the Viola interview, because this is something that UM I

858
00:50:06,040 --> 00:50:09,240
Speaker 1: do as well. So you said that you're the chaser

859
00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:11,120
Speaker 1: and you follow Phil around until you get him to

860
00:50:11,160 --> 00:50:14,520
Speaker 1: hear you, and I feel like in our relationship it

861
00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:17,560
Speaker 1: doesn't work because he shut off Phil. Do you actually

862
00:50:17,719 --> 00:50:20,960
Speaker 1: hear her when she's going after you? Because I feel

863
00:50:20,960 --> 00:50:23,000
Speaker 1: like I do that And Mike's like, I can't hear

864
00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:24,239
Speaker 1: you right now, and I'm trying to be like, but

865
00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:26,680
Speaker 1: listen to me, listen, listen, and he's just like, doesn't

866
00:50:26,719 --> 00:50:28,640
Speaker 1: want anything to do with me. So I'm like, how

867
00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:32,080
Speaker 1: do you make that work? Because I like that strategy

868
00:50:32,239 --> 00:50:37,640
Speaker 1: and does it actually work well after all these years

869
00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:41,160
Speaker 1: it works better. It's still his person it's still his

870
00:50:41,320 --> 00:50:45,839
Speaker 1: personality to walk away from confrontation. It's still his personality.

871
00:50:46,160 --> 00:50:49,960
Speaker 1: He doesn't it isn't even confrontation. He'll he'll confronted, but

872
00:50:50,040 --> 00:50:54,200
Speaker 1: when he's feeling all tied up inside, he doesn't know

873
00:50:54,280 --> 00:50:57,359
Speaker 1: how to get it out. He doesn't have that and

874
00:50:57,360 --> 00:51:00,239
Speaker 1: the honey stopped me if I'm wrong, But you don't

875
00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:05,520
Speaker 1: have a he doesn't have a built in path back

876
00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:09,840
Speaker 1: to the sanity of the situation he has. He's dealing

877
00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:12,560
Speaker 1: with it and sometimes he has to leave the room

878
00:51:12,600 --> 00:51:15,919
Speaker 1: to deal with it, and I chase him and say,

879
00:51:15,960 --> 00:51:18,600
Speaker 1: come on, let's talk this out. Come on, don't let's

880
00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:22,200
Speaker 1: do this, let's do that, and you know, and I'll

881
00:51:22,280 --> 00:51:24,560
Speaker 1: do that, and then sometimes I'll just leave him alone,

882
00:51:24,960 --> 00:51:28,120
Speaker 1: and then a little while later he'll come to my

883
00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:31,120
Speaker 1: study or something and say, Okay, I'm sorry. Okay, here's

884
00:51:31,160 --> 00:51:34,360
Speaker 1: what I was thinking. He wants he I wanted to

885
00:51:34,360 --> 00:51:38,759
Speaker 1: be over immediately. He can't get over it immediately, but

886
00:51:39,040 --> 00:51:42,120
Speaker 1: he's gotten to a place now where he'll get over

887
00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:47,840
Speaker 1: it quicker. Right. We don't have the same pathway to

888
00:51:47,960 --> 00:51:52,640
Speaker 1: our own emotions and I nobody does. And everybody is

889
00:51:52,719 --> 00:51:57,520
Speaker 1: different in that way. And so I think you've kind

890
00:51:57,520 --> 00:52:00,960
Speaker 1: of given up to it a little bit. Oh, I'm

891
00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:07,120
Speaker 1: a whole new person for four Y think it's I

892
00:52:07,160 --> 00:52:10,520
Speaker 1: think it's really important. It's a very good question. How

893
00:52:10,520 --> 00:52:13,360
Speaker 1: do you get past those two different Well, just you

894
00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:15,680
Speaker 1: did it the other day. You're really mad at me

895
00:52:15,719 --> 00:52:18,600
Speaker 1: about something and I and I got upset and I

896
00:52:18,719 --> 00:52:20,759
Speaker 1: left the room. I said, well, this is this is

897
00:52:20,840 --> 00:52:23,120
Speaker 1: just unfair. I'm not gonna listen to this, and I

898
00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:26,000
Speaker 1: left the room and I went to my study. And

899
00:52:26,120 --> 00:52:28,759
Speaker 1: about a half hour later, hour later, you came in

900
00:52:28,800 --> 00:52:31,319
Speaker 1: and said, Okay, I'm sorry. I didn't mean that. And

901
00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:36,759
Speaker 1: not everybody has to studies, so UM, yeah, you know,

902
00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:41,319
Speaker 1: it's certainly it'slf does. But uh, you know, as you

903
00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:45,960
Speaker 1: can see, I'm you know, I'm sort of a B

904
00:52:46,280 --> 00:52:52,440
Speaker 1: personality when I'm with Marlowe. I think Phil, I think

905
00:52:52,520 --> 00:52:54,800
Speaker 1: you and I are cut from the same cloth, because

906
00:52:55,800 --> 00:52:59,839
Speaker 1: this sounds very, very familiar, right, honey. Well it's interesting though,

907
00:52:59,880 --> 00:53:03,080
Speaker 1: because marlow what I found is that if I continue

908
00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:06,719
Speaker 1: to chase Mike, he doesn't hear me, and because I'm

909
00:53:06,719 --> 00:53:09,400
Speaker 1: almost looking, you know, to resolve or I want an apology.

910
00:53:09,480 --> 00:53:11,320
Speaker 1: But when I just stop and I don't do that,

911
00:53:11,480 --> 00:53:13,880
Speaker 1: he comes back so much quicker and then owns the

912
00:53:14,000 --> 00:53:18,000
Speaker 1: stuff and he sees it like way sooner. If I'm

913
00:53:18,080 --> 00:53:19,880
Speaker 1: trying to be like, didn't you can't you see that

914
00:53:19,960 --> 00:53:21,759
Speaker 1: you did this A B, C, D and E and like.

915
00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:25,000
Speaker 1: But when I just like, all right, go have whatever

916
00:53:25,080 --> 00:53:27,040
Speaker 1: mood you want to have and I stay in the

917
00:53:27,160 --> 00:53:30,160
Speaker 1: room where I go outside, he almost acknowledges it quicker

918
00:53:30,520 --> 00:53:32,680
Speaker 1: and comes back quicker if I don't chase him. So

919
00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:37,520
Speaker 1: that's kind of been looking for its exactly exactly. That's

920
00:53:37,560 --> 00:53:40,960
Speaker 1: what I'm saying. You have to respect and accommodate the

921
00:53:41,080 --> 00:53:45,000
Speaker 1: other person's ability to get to find the path back

922
00:53:45,080 --> 00:53:49,000
Speaker 1: to their own sanity, because it's it's an insane moment

923
00:53:49,080 --> 00:53:50,960
Speaker 1: when you get that kind of upset. You know, you're

924
00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:54,839
Speaker 1: not you're not in your comfort zone. You've fallen out

925
00:53:54,880 --> 00:53:57,840
Speaker 1: of your comfort zone. And again it's fear, you know,

926
00:53:58,080 --> 00:54:01,800
Speaker 1: it doesn't know how to handle that particular emotion whatever

927
00:54:01,880 --> 00:54:04,280
Speaker 1: it is, for sure. And and then in the Jamie

928
00:54:04,360 --> 00:54:07,000
Speaker 1: Lee Curtis and Christopher guest, was it hatred? Was that

929
00:54:07,080 --> 00:54:10,839
Speaker 1: the word? Yes? Okay, because at the beginning of the show,

930
00:54:11,239 --> 00:54:14,640
Speaker 1: we we started talking about that because you know, I

931
00:54:14,760 --> 00:54:17,919
Speaker 1: was chuckling, but also I'm like, I don't know, I've

932
00:54:18,000 --> 00:54:20,799
Speaker 1: disliked Mike and he's disliked me many times in our

933
00:54:20,920 --> 00:54:23,279
Speaker 1: short five years. But I don't know if I could

934
00:54:23,320 --> 00:54:26,440
Speaker 1: say that I've that I hate him. I don't know,

935
00:54:26,680 --> 00:54:29,200
Speaker 1: Like I just feel like, so I'm curious, have y'all

936
00:54:29,520 --> 00:54:34,560
Speaker 1: have y'all felt that or or what? No? Actually, no,

937
00:54:34,920 --> 00:54:38,480
Speaker 1: that That's why I said a word that I made

938
00:54:38,520 --> 00:54:41,880
Speaker 1: her repeat it. Yeah, you know, she said that the

939
00:54:42,320 --> 00:54:46,520
Speaker 1: that the psychiatrist said to her marriage depends on how

940
00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:50,960
Speaker 1: much hatred you can bear something like that, And I thought,

941
00:54:51,000 --> 00:54:53,719
Speaker 1: a toyler and how much hatred you can tolerate, and

942
00:54:53,840 --> 00:54:59,680
Speaker 1: I thought, wow, hatred. No, I have never felt hatred

943
00:54:59,880 --> 00:55:03,160
Speaker 1: or Phil. I've been really mad at I'm really piste

944
00:55:03,239 --> 00:55:05,719
Speaker 1: off and want to kill him, but I haven't hated him.

945
00:55:06,719 --> 00:55:08,360
Speaker 1: I love it like I wanted to kill too, But

946
00:55:08,520 --> 00:55:13,800
Speaker 1: I still don't hate you exactly. Hey, it is a

947
00:55:13,880 --> 00:55:20,920
Speaker 1: pretty strong word. I once asked Billy Graham on my show, Um,

948
00:55:21,520 --> 00:55:25,759
Speaker 1: have you ever have you ever thought about divorce? And

949
00:55:25,880 --> 00:55:34,640
Speaker 1: he said, divorce, never murder. Yes, that's perfect. Was there

950
00:55:34,680 --> 00:55:37,600
Speaker 1: anyone with the forty couples that you interviewed? Was there

951
00:55:37,640 --> 00:55:40,960
Speaker 1: anybody on your list that you weren't able to get

952
00:55:40,960 --> 00:55:43,600
Speaker 1: in the book or it just scheduling didn't work out

953
00:55:43,680 --> 00:55:46,000
Speaker 1: that you'd like to still have this conversation with in

954
00:55:46,080 --> 00:55:49,040
Speaker 1: the future. Well, we wanted, We very much wanted to

955
00:55:49,200 --> 00:55:57,640
Speaker 1: interview the Obama's and the Bushes. Uh that I'm I

956
00:55:57,800 --> 00:56:01,200
Speaker 1: was just so interested. Um, you know, being famous is

957
00:56:01,320 --> 00:56:04,960
Speaker 1: one thing, but being scrutinized every minute of the day

958
00:56:05,760 --> 00:56:08,480
Speaker 1: is another. And I was just interested in how their

959
00:56:08,600 --> 00:56:13,560
Speaker 1: marriages didn't grow or did grow, or you know what

960
00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:16,640
Speaker 1: did that do? Because I know in our marriage when

961
00:56:16,680 --> 00:56:19,959
Speaker 1: we were first married, I was a little scared off

962
00:56:20,360 --> 00:56:25,560
Speaker 1: by the scrutiny that we were put under right away.

963
00:56:25,600 --> 00:56:28,200
Speaker 1: I mean we were married about six months and and

964
00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:30,800
Speaker 1: there were already reports that we were getting a divorce

965
00:56:31,000 --> 00:56:33,520
Speaker 1: and people making up stories that we had seen a

966
00:56:33,640 --> 00:56:37,040
Speaker 1: lawyer and you know, and none of it had happened.

967
00:56:37,120 --> 00:56:39,520
Speaker 1: But it was like, wow, this is gonna be weird.

968
00:56:39,719 --> 00:56:42,799
Speaker 1: You know, people just can make up things, thank god

969
00:56:43,200 --> 00:56:47,120
Speaker 1: before social media. But it would appear, and you know,

970
00:56:47,239 --> 00:56:51,040
Speaker 1: in in crumby papers like the Inquirer and stuff. But

971
00:56:51,200 --> 00:56:54,239
Speaker 1: still it's out there. And what happens is it's out

972
00:56:54,280 --> 00:56:57,000
Speaker 1: there in a Crumby newspaper. But then the next time

973
00:56:57,040 --> 00:57:00,480
Speaker 1: you do an interview in a good newspaper, it'll say

974
00:57:00,560 --> 00:57:03,040
Speaker 1: there's been reports of their getting a divorce. You said,

975
00:57:03,080 --> 00:57:05,400
Speaker 1: but wait a minute. That was in a paper that

976
00:57:06,160 --> 00:57:08,160
Speaker 1: says it has a story about a woman who gave

977
00:57:08,200 --> 00:57:14,879
Speaker 1: birth to a whale. Why would you take that seriously? Um?

978
00:57:15,320 --> 00:57:17,920
Speaker 1: So and they so they follow you around, you know,

979
00:57:18,040 --> 00:57:22,440
Speaker 1: these stories. And so I didn't like the the scrutiny

980
00:57:22,520 --> 00:57:25,360
Speaker 1: and the and the made up divorce stories at first.

981
00:57:25,840 --> 00:57:29,440
Speaker 1: So I can imagine how you know, what that kind

982
00:57:29,480 --> 00:57:31,840
Speaker 1: of life was doing. How does it how does it

983
00:57:31,920 --> 00:57:35,040
Speaker 1: work on your marriage? Like for me, when there would

984
00:57:35,040 --> 00:57:38,360
Speaker 1: be stories about us that were untrue, I wanted to

985
00:57:38,480 --> 00:57:41,760
Speaker 1: immediately have a statement and have the press age and

986
00:57:41,840 --> 00:57:47,120
Speaker 1: put out something. And Phil's personality was never complained, never explained.

987
00:57:47,560 --> 00:57:50,160
Speaker 1: So we battled about that and I would say, yeah,

988
00:57:50,160 --> 00:57:53,200
Speaker 1: but if we don't say anything, we don't defend ourselves,

989
00:57:53,280 --> 00:57:55,959
Speaker 1: it will look like it's true. And he will say,

990
00:57:56,520 --> 00:57:59,600
Speaker 1: don't You're just going to feed the story, never complain,

991
00:57:59,760 --> 00:58:03,000
Speaker 1: never explain. Well, it turned out that I did it

992
00:58:03,120 --> 00:58:06,520
Speaker 1: his way. I mean I decided I didn't do it

993
00:58:06,640 --> 00:58:09,400
Speaker 1: his way to please him. I did it his way

994
00:58:10,080 --> 00:58:13,760
Speaker 1: because I decided that he was right. It was contrary

995
00:58:13,840 --> 00:58:17,240
Speaker 1: to what I was my impulse, but I thought about

996
00:58:17,320 --> 00:58:20,640
Speaker 1: it and thought, he's right. No, I didn't do it

997
00:58:20,760 --> 00:58:22,880
Speaker 1: just to please him, because then I would have resented it.

998
00:58:23,520 --> 00:58:26,080
Speaker 1: I did it because I was convinced by his point

999
00:58:26,120 --> 00:58:28,959
Speaker 1: of view. But but but you have to be open

1000
00:58:29,040 --> 00:58:31,560
Speaker 1: to it. I totally get that point. I think with

1001
00:58:31,760 --> 00:58:34,200
Speaker 1: us too. You know, things had come out in the

1002
00:58:34,320 --> 00:58:36,800
Speaker 1: public with us, and there was a point where I

1003
00:58:36,960 --> 00:58:39,160
Speaker 1: kind of wanted to talk about it more just because

1004
00:58:39,200 --> 00:58:41,720
Speaker 1: to set the narrative, and you know, and we kind

1005
00:58:41,760 --> 00:58:45,120
Speaker 1: of struggled on that a little bit um. So there's

1006
00:58:45,200 --> 00:58:48,360
Speaker 1: there's definitely positives and negatives to it, because you know,

1007
00:58:48,480 --> 00:58:50,840
Speaker 1: now that y'all have talked about your story, you're helping

1008
00:58:50,840 --> 00:58:52,960
Speaker 1: a lot of people too, you know, And I think

1009
00:58:53,040 --> 00:58:56,360
Speaker 1: that's that's kind of the silver lining to being married

1010
00:58:56,400 --> 00:58:58,640
Speaker 1: for forty years and sticking through it and having the

1011
00:58:59,640 --> 00:59:01,280
Speaker 1: in an mede, I guess in the very beginning of

1012
00:59:01,360 --> 00:59:03,440
Speaker 1: not sharing things, but then you know, now having your

1013
00:59:03,440 --> 00:59:05,880
Speaker 1: book and telling your story, that just shows you know

1014
00:59:06,400 --> 00:59:08,600
Speaker 1: what you all have been through and everything else. So

1015
00:59:08,680 --> 00:59:11,560
Speaker 1: I kind of love that as well. Yeah, and this

1016
00:59:11,680 --> 00:59:14,000
Speaker 1: may this may be a little bit of a cynical question,

1017
00:59:14,120 --> 00:59:16,960
Speaker 1: but with everyone that you interviewed, did you guys ever

1018
00:59:17,280 --> 00:59:21,800
Speaker 1: question their level of honesty when sharing such intimate stories

1019
00:59:21,960 --> 00:59:26,960
Speaker 1: or you know, ideas about their marriage. I don't know,

1020
00:59:27,120 --> 00:59:33,800
Speaker 1: did you. Well? I was shocked at how open everybody was,

1021
00:59:34,000 --> 00:59:37,040
Speaker 1: for sure. Well when they let us in, you know,

1022
00:59:37,120 --> 00:59:40,400
Speaker 1: when we'd go a knock on their door. I remember

1023
00:59:41,000 --> 00:59:45,360
Speaker 1: they looked at you, like, what what's your angle here? Right?

1024
00:59:46,480 --> 00:59:50,240
Speaker 1: And the minute I said something about our marriage, no

1025
00:59:50,320 --> 00:59:54,600
Speaker 1: matter how trivial, it just seemed to blow open a

1026
00:59:54,760 --> 01:00:01,000
Speaker 1: large door and they couldn't wait to talk about their marriage. So, yeah,

1027
01:00:01,240 --> 01:00:04,960
Speaker 1: I went into this thinking we do maybe minute thirty

1028
01:00:05,040 --> 01:00:09,080
Speaker 1: five minute interviews and how long did we three hours?

1029
01:00:10,120 --> 01:00:12,840
Speaker 1: It would be three hours. And you know, the book

1030
01:00:12,920 --> 01:00:17,040
Speaker 1: was originally supposed to be three fifty pages. It's six pages.

1031
01:00:18,200 --> 01:00:22,000
Speaker 1: And we had told the publisher that we expected that

1032
01:00:22,160 --> 01:00:27,160
Speaker 1: each chapter would be about words, which is a nice

1033
01:00:27,680 --> 01:00:32,680
Speaker 1: article length. But each chapter is five thousand words. Elton

1034
01:00:32,800 --> 01:00:36,680
Speaker 1: John is six thousand words, um. Because the stories were

1035
01:00:36,840 --> 01:00:40,520
Speaker 1: very rich, we had not expected them to be that interesting.

1036
01:00:40,720 --> 01:00:43,400
Speaker 1: And when we got to you know, we we obviously

1037
01:00:43,480 --> 01:00:46,520
Speaker 1: taped it, uh, and then we got the transcript back

1038
01:00:46,600 --> 01:00:48,920
Speaker 1: and we would go through it and circle, you know

1039
01:00:49,040 --> 01:00:51,960
Speaker 1: what we thought was really good, and there was just

1040
01:00:52,120 --> 01:00:55,000
Speaker 1: a lot that was so good. And then we started

1041
01:00:55,040 --> 01:00:58,080
Speaker 1: taking ourselves out of it in order to make them shorter.

1042
01:00:58,800 --> 01:01:01,320
Speaker 1: And then we realized, about we take ourselves out of it,

1043
01:01:01,840 --> 01:01:04,720
Speaker 1: it's not really honest as to what had happened. So

1044
01:01:04,800 --> 01:01:07,360
Speaker 1: then we put ourselves back in it, and they were

1045
01:01:07,440 --> 01:01:10,400
Speaker 1: just very long. And when we turned the book in,

1046
01:01:10,600 --> 01:01:14,760
Speaker 1: we thought for sure that our publisher at Harper's would

1047
01:01:14,760 --> 01:01:18,160
Speaker 1: ask us to cut it or to take some stories

1048
01:01:18,240 --> 01:01:21,600
Speaker 1: out in order to make it shorter. But she didn't,

1049
01:01:22,320 --> 01:01:25,280
Speaker 1: she wrote, She called us and said, I think these

1050
01:01:25,320 --> 01:01:27,080
Speaker 1: stories are very good and I don't want you to

1051
01:01:27,160 --> 01:01:30,120
Speaker 1: touch a word of it. So we didn't. We were

1052
01:01:30,240 --> 01:01:33,120
Speaker 1: very lucky. Yeah, we second that just from our experience

1053
01:01:33,160 --> 01:01:35,480
Speaker 1: of reading it, because it doesn't feel like a six

1054
01:01:35,880 --> 01:01:38,960
Speaker 1: page read at all. And it's like you said, if

1055
01:01:39,000 --> 01:01:41,360
Speaker 1: you guys took your part out or try to condense

1056
01:01:41,440 --> 01:01:43,600
Speaker 1: these stories, it wouldn't be the same, it wouldn't be

1057
01:01:43,640 --> 01:01:46,840
Speaker 1: as impactful. And so I just know from we're huge

1058
01:01:46,880 --> 01:01:48,800
Speaker 1: fans of it and what you guys did with this book.

1059
01:01:48,880 --> 01:01:52,680
Speaker 1: So yeah, and just again not feeling alone because sometimes

1060
01:01:52,720 --> 01:01:54,720
Speaker 1: I think, are we the only people that have struggled

1061
01:01:54,720 --> 01:01:56,200
Speaker 1: in our marriage? Were the only people that have had

1062
01:01:56,280 --> 01:01:58,880
Speaker 1: these issues? And then when I read stories of other

1063
01:01:58,960 --> 01:02:02,040
Speaker 1: couples and you, it's just like, wow, Okay, we're not alone,

1064
01:02:02,160 --> 01:02:06,560
Speaker 1: So thank you for having for other people and exactly.

1065
01:02:06,960 --> 01:02:10,320
Speaker 1: And you know what's really interesting is that you're the

1066
01:02:10,400 --> 01:02:14,640
Speaker 1: winner because half of us get divorced. So that's that's

1067
01:02:14,680 --> 01:02:17,640
Speaker 1: what's interesting. The statistics are, which was one of the

1068
01:02:17,720 --> 01:02:20,480
Speaker 1: reasons why we were interested in doing the book, The

1069
01:02:20,600 --> 01:02:23,720
Speaker 1: statistics are that half of us get divorced in this country,

1070
01:02:24,240 --> 01:02:27,600
Speaker 1: so the half of us that don't get divorced. Us you,

1071
01:02:27,880 --> 01:02:30,480
Speaker 1: the people in this book. We've had to go through

1072
01:02:30,520 --> 01:02:34,240
Speaker 1: a lot to burn off the bad stuff to be

1073
01:02:34,400 --> 01:02:38,160
Speaker 1: able to to be able to live with another person

1074
01:02:38,240 --> 01:02:41,040
Speaker 1: who's completely different from you. I mean, one of the

1075
01:02:41,120 --> 01:02:44,600
Speaker 1: things Jamie Lee Curtis said is that we are completely

1076
01:02:44,760 --> 01:02:47,920
Speaker 1: different from each other in every way. There's nothing And

1077
01:02:48,200 --> 01:02:51,440
Speaker 1: and Rob Ryaner said an interesting thing. He said, you

1078
01:02:51,680 --> 01:02:54,440
Speaker 1: have to work your own side of the street first,

1079
01:02:55,480 --> 01:02:58,200
Speaker 1: each of you, before you can come together as a couple.

1080
01:02:58,240 --> 01:03:00,400
Speaker 1: You've got to fix up all the stuff it's wrong

1081
01:03:00,480 --> 01:03:02,960
Speaker 1: with you. And then and then all the stuff that

1082
01:03:03,040 --> 01:03:04,640
Speaker 1: you dumped on the other side of the street too,

1083
01:03:04,720 --> 01:03:06,120
Speaker 1: So the stuff that I might have dumped on his

1084
01:03:06,200 --> 01:03:07,520
Speaker 1: side of the street, and then he dumped on my

1085
01:03:07,600 --> 01:03:09,800
Speaker 1: side of the street. So it's like double double clean

1086
01:03:09,880 --> 01:03:15,640
Speaker 1: up exactly each person. And and Ted Dancing and Mary

1087
01:03:15,720 --> 01:03:18,320
Speaker 1: Steamberge and talked about that as well. This is his

1088
01:03:18,520 --> 01:03:21,920
Speaker 1: third marriage, her second marriage. And I said to him,

1089
01:03:22,360 --> 01:03:25,560
Speaker 1: three marriages, where'd you get the optimism to get married

1090
01:03:25,600 --> 01:03:29,080
Speaker 1: a third time? And he and they've been married thirty years,

1091
01:03:29,120 --> 01:03:31,880
Speaker 1: so it's working. Um, he said, well, I had to

1092
01:03:32,000 --> 01:03:34,560
Speaker 1: change some things about myself, like I had to stop lying.

1093
01:03:35,320 --> 01:03:37,800
Speaker 1: He said, I was a liar. I said about what

1094
01:03:37,960 --> 01:03:41,040
Speaker 1: he said about everything, but what I was feeling. I

1095
01:03:41,240 --> 01:03:44,120
Speaker 1: was also unfaithful. But I didn't tell the truth about

1096
01:03:44,160 --> 01:03:45,840
Speaker 1: who I was because I wanted to be the big,

1097
01:03:46,120 --> 01:03:49,120
Speaker 1: the white knight on a white horse. But so I

1098
01:03:49,200 --> 01:03:52,000
Speaker 1: didn't tell what I was really feeling, my insecurities, all

1099
01:03:52,560 --> 01:03:54,960
Speaker 1: I kept all that away to look like I was

1100
01:03:55,040 --> 01:03:57,240
Speaker 1: better than I was. I had to learn to be

1101
01:03:57,360 --> 01:04:00,400
Speaker 1: real and vulnerable and say who I was so that

1102
01:04:00,520 --> 01:04:03,400
Speaker 1: I could, you know, not play games. He said in

1103
01:04:03,720 --> 01:04:07,240
Speaker 1: early on in my relationship with Mary, when I would

1104
01:04:07,240 --> 01:04:09,040
Speaker 1: start to play a game, she would look at me,

1105
01:04:09,160 --> 01:04:12,080
Speaker 1: and I could tell that this she could tell that

1106
01:04:12,160 --> 01:04:14,960
Speaker 1: it was a lie. She she would call me on it.

1107
01:04:15,560 --> 01:04:18,960
Speaker 1: You know, I had to be a better person. I

1108
01:04:19,000 --> 01:04:21,400
Speaker 1: had to be not a better person, to be a

1109
01:04:21,440 --> 01:04:24,880
Speaker 1: more honest person of who I was. She could love

1110
01:04:25,000 --> 01:04:28,520
Speaker 1: me who who I was. I didn't have to pretend

1111
01:04:28,600 --> 01:04:31,120
Speaker 1: to be somebody else. And I think that's we do

1112
01:04:31,280 --> 01:04:33,560
Speaker 1: that a lot to all of us, you know we

1113
01:04:34,400 --> 01:04:37,240
Speaker 1: Chris Rocks has a great line. He says, when you're dating,

1114
01:04:37,680 --> 01:04:41,200
Speaker 1: you're not really dating the real person you're you're dating

1115
01:04:41,280 --> 01:04:46,560
Speaker 1: the representation of the sitting out their representative, you know,

1116
01:04:46,720 --> 01:04:49,640
Speaker 1: their best self. But when you get married, you're gonna

1117
01:04:49,680 --> 01:04:54,080
Speaker 1: see all the other stuff that your representative didn't show before.

1118
01:04:54,680 --> 01:04:58,840
Speaker 1: And and then you learn to work through that and

1119
01:04:59,200 --> 01:05:03,840
Speaker 1: find those things either darling or attractive, or sensitive or

1120
01:05:04,320 --> 01:05:08,480
Speaker 1: sympathetic or downright unacceptable and you have to work through it,

1121
01:05:08,800 --> 01:05:11,680
Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, And that's just it. I mean, Ted's

1122
01:05:11,800 --> 01:05:14,360
Speaker 1: just what you're saying from Ted story mirrors kind of

1123
01:05:14,440 --> 01:05:17,560
Speaker 1: my own, and some I've a mantra for myself to

1124
01:05:17,680 --> 01:05:21,560
Speaker 1: remind myself when I have those moments. Is just you know,

1125
01:05:21,800 --> 01:05:23,800
Speaker 1: if if I thought the grass was greener, it's just

1126
01:05:23,840 --> 01:05:26,360
Speaker 1: gonna be the same story but a different cast. If

1127
01:05:26,440 --> 01:05:29,360
Speaker 1: I don't, if I'm not introspective, it's gonna the same

1128
01:05:29,400 --> 01:05:31,000
Speaker 1: thing is going to happen. It doesn't matter who my

1129
01:05:31,080 --> 01:05:33,480
Speaker 1: wife is, doesn't matter who my partner is, and so

1130
01:05:33,600 --> 01:05:35,320
Speaker 1: it's just gonna be the same thing that Janna and

1131
01:05:35,360 --> 01:05:38,400
Speaker 1: I try to talk about on our show and in

1132
01:05:38,480 --> 01:05:41,080
Speaker 1: the book that we're doing. Doing is just you know,

1133
01:05:41,240 --> 01:05:42,760
Speaker 1: like you guys are saying, you got clean your side

1134
01:05:42,760 --> 01:05:46,240
Speaker 1: of the street. It starts with you, right, why did

1135
01:05:46,280 --> 01:05:50,320
Speaker 1: you decide to do a show. So it actually started

1136
01:05:50,400 --> 01:05:53,640
Speaker 1: with just me UM and I had written a book

1137
01:05:53,960 --> 01:05:56,240
Speaker 1: UM kind of about things, and which you know, he

1138
01:05:56,480 --> 01:05:59,120
Speaker 1: was not ready for it, and he ripped it up

1139
01:05:59,200 --> 01:06:01,560
Speaker 1: and we got into a big old fight about it,

1140
01:06:01,720 --> 01:06:03,600
Speaker 1: and I was like, but I feel like we went

1141
01:06:03,640 --> 01:06:06,080
Speaker 1: through this so we could help people, and and he

1142
01:06:06,200 --> 01:06:07,959
Speaker 1: was still really stuck in a shame at the time.

1143
01:06:08,040 --> 01:06:11,480
Speaker 1: And so then I started this podcast and he came

1144
01:06:11,560 --> 01:06:13,439
Speaker 1: on as a guest, and I said, look, you don't

1145
01:06:13,440 --> 01:06:15,760
Speaker 1: have to say anything. We don't have to talk about addiction.

1146
01:06:15,840 --> 01:06:17,800
Speaker 1: At the time, no one knew about a sex addiction.

1147
01:06:18,040 --> 01:06:20,160
Speaker 1: And I was like, you just go at your own pace.

1148
01:06:20,640 --> 01:06:22,240
Speaker 1: We don't have to tell a soul. And it was

1149
01:06:22,320 --> 01:06:26,120
Speaker 1: what two episodes in where we talked about affairs, you know,

1150
01:06:26,520 --> 01:06:29,480
Speaker 1: me being new and twelfth that program of sex addiction

1151
01:06:29,920 --> 01:06:33,080
Speaker 1: and things just kind of took off, and you know,

1152
01:06:33,280 --> 01:06:35,480
Speaker 1: just we realized like, the same thing that we feel

1153
01:06:35,520 --> 01:06:39,000
Speaker 1: read y'all's book is what we got to feel as well,

1154
01:06:39,120 --> 01:06:41,520
Speaker 1: with people being like, oh my gosh, you know my

1155
01:06:41,640 --> 01:06:44,880
Speaker 1: husband's an addict as well, or because you gotta share this,

1156
01:06:44,960 --> 01:06:47,240
Speaker 1: we don't feel so alone we're dealing with infidelity and

1157
01:06:47,760 --> 01:06:49,400
Speaker 1: and so they kind of grew into what the show

1158
01:06:49,520 --> 01:06:52,560
Speaker 1: is now and it's you know, it can be challenging

1159
01:06:52,600 --> 01:06:55,000
Speaker 1: at times, but I think this the silver lining is

1160
01:06:55,120 --> 01:06:57,640
Speaker 1: knowing that we're able to help people, just as you

1161
01:06:57,680 --> 01:06:59,400
Speaker 1: guys are doing with your book too. And you know,

1162
01:06:59,640 --> 01:07:01,880
Speaker 1: now we have a book with HarperCollins as well as

1163
01:07:02,120 --> 01:07:05,320
Speaker 1: there are publishers too, and comes out September about the

1164
01:07:05,320 --> 01:07:07,320
Speaker 1: Good Fight and things that you know, we are by

1165
01:07:07,440 --> 01:07:12,200
Speaker 1: no means perfect or you know, have it all figured out. Shoot,

1166
01:07:12,240 --> 01:07:14,640
Speaker 1: you're fighting thirty minutes before this too, and it was

1167
01:07:14,720 --> 01:07:16,560
Speaker 1: just but here are just some of the things that

1168
01:07:16,680 --> 01:07:19,360
Speaker 1: we learned to keep fighting because you know, you gotta

1169
01:07:19,400 --> 01:07:21,760
Speaker 1: get in there and you gotta work it all out

1170
01:07:21,840 --> 01:07:23,680
Speaker 1: because you know, we have two beautiful kids and we

1171
01:07:23,800 --> 01:07:25,760
Speaker 1: want you know, we want to be good parents and

1172
01:07:26,160 --> 01:07:30,720
Speaker 1: good partners for each Really, it's really important to keep fighting,

1173
01:07:31,200 --> 01:07:34,360
Speaker 1: It really is. I mean, we know so many couples

1174
01:07:34,800 --> 01:07:38,120
Speaker 1: who never had a fight, you know, and they're divorced

1175
01:07:38,120 --> 01:07:41,320
Speaker 1: now because you're not telling if you're not disagreeing with

1176
01:07:41,480 --> 01:07:45,640
Speaker 1: your mate, then you're not telling the truth. People that

1177
01:07:45,680 --> 01:07:48,000
Speaker 1: are not born to peace in a pod. I mean,

1178
01:07:48,080 --> 01:07:50,160
Speaker 1: I I fight with my brother and sister I mean,

1179
01:07:50,240 --> 01:07:52,680
Speaker 1: you can't agree with people all the time, and if

1180
01:07:52,720 --> 01:07:55,400
Speaker 1: you don't let it out, then you have resentment. I mean.

1181
01:07:55,520 --> 01:07:59,560
Speaker 1: Deborah Roberts was married to Al Roker, talked about resentment

1182
01:07:59,640 --> 01:08:01,880
Speaker 1: that she felt that she gave up a lot of

1183
01:08:02,000 --> 01:08:04,880
Speaker 1: her career in order to take care of their children.

1184
01:08:05,200 --> 01:08:07,800
Speaker 1: He didn't ask her to do that. She made that

1185
01:08:07,960 --> 01:08:10,560
Speaker 1: decision to do that, but she resented the fact that

1186
01:08:10,680 --> 01:08:13,960
Speaker 1: he didn't do it. Well, that wasn't his fault. He

1187
01:08:14,040 --> 01:08:15,560
Speaker 1: didn't tell her to do it in the first place.

1188
01:08:15,920 --> 01:08:18,479
Speaker 1: But she felt as a woman, as a mother, that

1189
01:08:18,640 --> 01:08:20,840
Speaker 1: she had to give up a lot of her career.

1190
01:08:21,600 --> 01:08:23,840
Speaker 1: But she never talked about it. She just resented it.

1191
01:08:23,880 --> 01:08:26,320
Speaker 1: And then finally she got it out and they went

1192
01:08:26,360 --> 01:08:29,960
Speaker 1: into marriage counseling and so forth. But that's what happens.

1193
01:08:30,000 --> 01:08:32,640
Speaker 1: If you don't talk about it, it will fester and

1194
01:08:32,720 --> 01:08:36,759
Speaker 1: boil until it becomes impossible. Did you guys go to counseling.

1195
01:08:37,800 --> 01:08:45,280
Speaker 1: We've done more therapy, individual couples and intensive We've done

1196
01:08:45,280 --> 01:08:48,280
Speaker 1: it all in the last five years. That's great, but

1197
01:08:48,400 --> 01:08:50,479
Speaker 1: I've I'm more in love with them today that I

1198
01:08:50,640 --> 01:08:53,160
Speaker 1: than I was yesterday. So I like because of our struggle,

1199
01:08:53,240 --> 01:08:55,880
Speaker 1: like I love our struggle. It's been great. I think

1200
01:08:55,960 --> 01:08:59,280
Speaker 1: if you if you agree to go to counseling, that

1201
01:08:59,560 --> 01:09:03,360
Speaker 1: is a fabulous act of love. That's a person who

1202
01:09:03,479 --> 01:09:09,280
Speaker 1: really wants to make this happened to make the marriage laugh?

1203
01:09:10,240 --> 01:09:13,439
Speaker 1: Uh you know, because who the who wants to go

1204
01:09:13,720 --> 01:09:16,840
Speaker 1: and talk about it with a stranger. But if you

1205
01:09:17,000 --> 01:09:21,120
Speaker 1: agree to do that, uh, that you know, that's pretty

1206
01:09:21,479 --> 01:09:26,200
Speaker 1: pretty big evidence that you want this marriage. And we

1207
01:09:26,400 --> 01:09:30,760
Speaker 1: discovered that attitude and a lot of the a lot

1208
01:09:30,880 --> 01:09:36,679
Speaker 1: of the people the couples were interviewed, often it's one

1209
01:09:36,840 --> 01:09:42,720
Speaker 1: person that saves the marriage and makes it last by

1210
01:09:42,800 --> 01:09:46,240
Speaker 1: taking by by by bringing up the therapy. But but

1211
01:09:46,400 --> 01:09:49,679
Speaker 1: the couple, But the couple who then do it together

1212
01:09:50,200 --> 01:09:52,840
Speaker 1: like Ron and Show Howard and Brian Kranton and Robin

1213
01:09:52,920 --> 01:09:55,920
Speaker 1: Dearden and all of them who did it together, that

1214
01:09:56,200 --> 01:09:59,840
Speaker 1: became you know, that's what saves their marriage. And that's

1215
01:10:00,240 --> 01:10:02,280
Speaker 1: that's what's Phil said from the very beginning of his

1216
01:10:02,520 --> 01:10:05,960
Speaker 1: talk that we're having is that really what makes a

1217
01:10:06,040 --> 01:10:10,120
Speaker 1: marriage last is both people wanted to last and work

1218
01:10:10,240 --> 01:10:13,360
Speaker 1: for it, and and there's just no other way because

1219
01:10:13,720 --> 01:10:17,120
Speaker 1: there's no way for two individual people unless you're gonna

1220
01:10:17,160 --> 01:10:21,280
Speaker 1: marry a sponge. You know that that's that's gonna that's

1221
01:10:21,320 --> 01:10:24,439
Speaker 1: gonna work unless you both invest in it, really have

1222
01:10:24,600 --> 01:10:27,439
Speaker 1: to invest in it. And I think that's the beauty

1223
01:10:27,520 --> 01:10:29,720
Speaker 1: of it and and the fun of it. And and

1224
01:10:29,800 --> 01:10:33,120
Speaker 1: as you were saying, you love him more, you love

1225
01:10:33,240 --> 01:10:36,760
Speaker 1: him more because you do see his his frailties and

1226
01:10:36,880 --> 01:10:40,800
Speaker 1: his imperfections and his desire that for the love of

1227
01:10:40,920 --> 01:10:46,760
Speaker 1: the two of you, he's willing to solve those challenges.

1228
01:10:47,240 --> 01:10:51,320
Speaker 1: That's that's that's great. I mean that that really is

1229
01:10:51,600 --> 01:10:54,720
Speaker 1: I think that is what makes that's called love. That

1230
01:10:55,080 --> 01:10:58,439
Speaker 1: that is it. Well, see, we read about a lot

1231
01:10:58,520 --> 01:11:01,040
Speaker 1: of love in y'all's book What May Some Marriage Last?

1232
01:11:01,320 --> 01:11:04,000
Speaker 1: And so please everyone, please please please get this book.

1233
01:11:04,040 --> 01:11:07,280
Speaker 1: It's so so so good. Um and Marlow I'm from

1234
01:11:07,320 --> 01:11:10,560
Speaker 1: Michigan too, So Michigan, Michigan love right here and we

1235
01:11:10,680 --> 01:11:12,920
Speaker 1: love St. Jude. It's one of the most magical places ever.

1236
01:11:13,080 --> 01:11:16,679
Speaker 1: So thank you for everything you do. St Jude. Yeah,

1237
01:11:17,360 --> 01:11:20,400
Speaker 1: we um with within country music, We've we've been there

1238
01:11:20,479 --> 01:11:23,599
Speaker 1: a bunch um with the you know, the St. Jude

1239
01:11:24,120 --> 01:11:28,000
Speaker 1: radio thon. So just thank you for everything you do. Um, Phil,

1240
01:11:28,240 --> 01:11:30,680
Speaker 1: I love you. You are an inspiration both of you two.

1241
01:11:30,760 --> 01:11:33,240
Speaker 1: So thank you so much. Everyone will get what makes

1242
01:11:33,320 --> 01:11:38,439
Speaker 1: a marriage last awesome. Thank you so much. I really

1243
01:11:38,439 --> 01:11:48,120
Speaker 1: appreciate it. Okay, okay, love I mean I love them.

1244
01:11:48,439 --> 01:11:50,560
Speaker 1: I want to be in their next book. I just

1245
01:11:50,640 --> 01:11:53,720
Speaker 1: want to sit down with them and tell stories and

1246
01:11:53,840 --> 01:11:58,200
Speaker 1: have conversations. Oh for sure, Marlo just is my spirit animal.

1247
01:11:58,840 --> 01:12:01,920
Speaker 1: She really is. I of her. Um. But I hope

1248
01:12:01,920 --> 01:12:04,800
Speaker 1: you guys got a lot out of this. And there's

1249
01:12:04,840 --> 01:12:07,160
Speaker 1: just one thing I want to say too, because you

1250
01:12:07,240 --> 01:12:12,400
Speaker 1: said it's I think you said it's easier to leave,

1251
01:12:13,160 --> 01:12:16,120
Speaker 1: and I just want to say, because some people say

1252
01:12:16,760 --> 01:12:21,600
Speaker 1: when you say easier, simpler, m it says comparing the decisions,

1253
01:12:22,320 --> 01:12:24,519
Speaker 1: I gotta say, it would be really effing hard to leave.

1254
01:12:26,240 --> 01:12:29,360
Speaker 1: It takes a lot of kudos. I think to leave

1255
01:12:29,600 --> 01:12:35,559
Speaker 1: and to be a single parent. Sometimes it's if you yeah,

1256
01:12:35,640 --> 01:12:38,040
Speaker 1: like it's easier to stay. When there's because I just

1257
01:12:38,360 --> 01:12:40,120
Speaker 1: for the women that have like I can't like when

1258
01:12:40,160 --> 01:12:42,120
Speaker 1: I think about being a single parent. Sytimes when I'm like,

1259
01:12:42,280 --> 01:12:46,439
Speaker 1: go down to the divorce train. In my mind, I'm like, oh,

1260
01:12:46,600 --> 01:12:49,479
Speaker 1: I don't know if I want them every day by myself? No, No,

1261
01:12:49,760 --> 01:12:54,160
Speaker 1: for sure, I'm saying that I was talking about divorce

1262
01:12:54,200 --> 01:12:57,560
Speaker 1: in general. That's why because people think it's easier just

1263
01:12:57,720 --> 01:13:00,599
Speaker 1: to leave. Okay, that's what I'm saying generally. That's why

1264
01:13:00,640 --> 01:13:04,240
Speaker 1: it's divorced right in our countries because people have this

1265
01:13:04,400 --> 01:13:07,320
Speaker 1: misconception that it's just easier to leave. Oh, I don't

1266
01:13:07,360 --> 01:13:09,599
Speaker 1: want to go through this pain. I'm just gonna leave, Okay. Cool.

1267
01:13:09,600 --> 01:13:11,040
Speaker 1: I just wanted to make sure for those people out

1268
01:13:11,040 --> 01:13:12,280
Speaker 1: there to be like, wait a minute, no, no, no.

1269
01:13:12,720 --> 01:13:15,080
Speaker 1: I said that one time, and I got in a

1270
01:13:15,120 --> 01:13:16,760
Speaker 1: lot of trouble, so I was just protecting. I knew

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01:13:16,800 --> 01:13:20,479
Speaker 1: what you meant, right yeah, no, no, no, no, okay. Um,

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01:13:21,000 --> 01:13:22,920
Speaker 1: we'll just leave it with this. This is part of

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01:13:22,960 --> 01:13:26,439
Speaker 1: their book Um in the Tony and Brooke Adams Um,

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01:13:27,280 --> 01:13:30,120
Speaker 1: Brooke says the bottom line is, and I say this

1275
01:13:30,280 --> 01:13:34,400
Speaker 1: as a woman, a woman, Women are impossible and men

1276
01:13:34,800 --> 01:13:40,479
Speaker 1: are annoying. We'll leave it at that. Later