Speaker 1: Als media.
Speaker 2: Hi everyone, and welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 3: It's me James today and I am very lucky to
Speaker 3: be joined by Azad, who is fighting in Mianma Chinland
Speaker 3: specifically with the AIF. Welcome to the show, Zad, thanks
Speaker 3: for being here.
Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks for having me on of course. Yeah.
Speaker 3: This has been a project that, like I've been following
Speaker 3: from Afar for some time, maybe several months now I think.
Speaker 3: But for listeners who have not been following, can you
Speaker 3: explain very briefly the role of the AIF in the
Speaker 3: struggle in Miamma.
Speaker 2: Yeah, sure, getting right into it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, first I'd like to give a little bit of
Speaker 4: a spiel about like the context of the AIF maybe
Speaker 4: for people who aren't so familiar. Yeah, in Burma already,
Speaker 4: for decades there have been some kind of established president
Speaker 4: of we can say, foreign volunteers of some kind or
Speaker 4: you know, ex military personnel or you know somebody who
Speaker 4: is somehow drawn to the conflict. There has already been
Speaker 4: the present cident for some decades of people coming in
Speaker 4: a very limited capacity and helping with this group or
Speaker 4: that group. But it mostly has been participation of two
Speaker 4: big characteristics. The first characteristic is that of course, it's
Speaker 4: been an individual basis. Like whoever individual had this idea,
Speaker 4: they organized it themselves, they handled it themselves, with the
Speaker 4: exception of like the freewom arrangers, but I wouldn't classify
Speaker 4: them as like, you know, foreign fighters or anything.
Speaker 2: They do very very.
Speaker 3: Good work, but yeah, slightly different role.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: The people who did this kind of stuff were mostly
Speaker 4: coming as individuals, you know, kind of on their own prerogative.
Speaker 4: And secondly, they were overwhelmingly we can say, non political
Speaker 4: or you know, ex military guys from Western nations or
Speaker 4: you know, from neighboring countries who were somehow drawn to
Speaker 4: the conflict and wanted to use their skills in that
Speaker 4: kind of light. The AIF, on the other hand, is
Speaker 4: absolutely by no means like the foreign Fighter Organization in
Speaker 4: mean Moore or it's not like the foreign battalion or
Speaker 4: that's also not with the and the mission is it
Speaker 4: specifically came about after twenty twenty three twenty twenty four,
Speaker 4: there were slowly more internationals in the country.
Speaker 2: Internationalists we can say, yeah, who.
Speaker 4: Were here on a much more yeah, albeit at the beginning,
Speaker 4: individual it was the same where people were organizing their
Speaker 4: own ways, organizing their own routes and connections, but with
Speaker 4: a much more different perspective of this kind of more
Speaker 4: intentional anti fascist internationalist perspective, yeah, which led over into
Speaker 4: the name. So kind of as as a result of
Speaker 4: discussions between me and some other people who were here
Speaker 4: and also some other people outside the country, the idea
Speaker 4: to set up a formation or an organization like this
Speaker 4: was floated, and of course after talking with local partners
Speaker 4: and local comrades who anyway were involved with on the ground,
Speaker 4: there was a lot of enthusiasm on both sides, both
Speaker 4: from people outside the country, both from people inside the country.
Speaker 4: So kind of within that context, the idea to take
Speaker 4: a step forward in a more organized, explicit the consistent Yeah,
Speaker 4: to use a polite word, of consistent perspective for internationalism
Speaker 4: and minmoir, that was kind of the goal.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And if people aren't familiar, it's the Anti Fascist
Speaker 3: Internationalist Front, right. The AIF has a really cool logo
Speaker 3: with the the peacock tail and the three arrows and
Speaker 3: the like the white star in a red background that
Speaker 3: I thought that was I really appreciate your logo. Yeah,
Speaker 3: so yeah, I think people will like when they talk
Speaker 3: about the conflict in Memma. They will be like, oh,
Speaker 3: why are they? Why is there not more internationalism and
Speaker 3: why is there not more international volunteers. Something that you
Speaker 3: and I have spoken about before is that, like, this
Speaker 3: has always been an international conflict, right, and it's always
Speaker 3: been an anti fascist conflict as well. Do you want
Speaker 3: to explain that to people who because I think sometimes
Speaker 3: it's easy for people to fall into these orientalists or
Speaker 3: somewhat colonialist constructions of the conflict there, and I think
Speaker 3: you and I both agree that those are not the
Speaker 3: lens through which we should view it.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I mean, of course, the history of let's just use
Speaker 4: a big term, the history of conflict in Burma is
Speaker 4: of course very deep and very complex and has a
Speaker 4: thousand different ethnic and political you know, branches that.
Speaker 2: You can go down.
Speaker 4: Yeah, But if we're really focusing in on this post
Speaker 4: coup situation, which even though it has its roots and
Speaker 4: its context in of course the pre coup, with you know,
Speaker 4: the existing Ethink resistance organizations and the democracy movement, if
Speaker 4: we're really looking at the conflict post twenty twenty one coup, fundamentally,
Speaker 4: it is not any one nations struggle. It is not
Speaker 4: anyone's people's struggle. It is not even like a national
Speaker 4: struggle of Burma. We can say it is fundamentally a
Speaker 4: fight against fascism. It is an anti fascist people's revolution.
Speaker 4: Where after, of course, the coup and after these initial
Speaker 4: stages of protest and uprising, the people were faced by
Speaker 4: a choice of do we accept dictatorship, do we go
Speaker 4: back and do we live like normal? Do we accept fascism,
Speaker 4: do we live under fascism? Or do we prepare to
Speaker 4: sacrifice everything to fight against fascism? And that was the
Speaker 4: fundamental calculation in that So in so far as it's
Speaker 4: to fight against fascism, that makes it an international struggle
Speaker 4: in itself, I mean, without even you know, going on
Speaker 4: too much about how anyways, the so called nation of
Speaker 4: Burma is dozens and dozens and dozens of different ethnicities
Speaker 4: and religions and cultures, which I mean, if you aren't
Speaker 4: thinking in the traditional nation state sense of internationalism and
Speaker 4: more thinking in the kind of brotherhood of cultures and traditions,
Speaker 4: then yeah, of course, without the flashy you know, foreigners coming,
Speaker 4: it's already an internationalist struggle against fascism. But I think,
Speaker 4: you know, on a more intentional level, the dictatorship represents
Speaker 4: fundamentally the same fascism that exists all over the world,
Speaker 4: fundamentally state oppression. So yeah, in that regard, it's very
Speaker 4: much an international struggle.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And something we've spoken about before is like the link.
Speaker 3: So the inspiration I guess that comes from the internationalist
Speaker 3: struggle in North and East Syria and Java, and how
Speaker 3: that's very much been like a source of inspiration for
Speaker 3: young people in MR. I've spoken to tons of them
Speaker 3: even two years ago, especially young women there right look
Speaker 3: looking at the women's revolution in Rajava and seeing like
Speaker 3: that this was a possibility, that this was something like
Speaker 3: on the horizon that they could strive for. Do you
Speaker 3: want to explain like your own perceptions of that inexperience
Speaker 3: of it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, sure, Well, first, you know, not to overstate things. Well,
Speaker 4: of course Rojava is a big inspiration I think, not
Speaker 4: just for the people here in me and mar but
Speaker 4: truly like a beacon of hope in general.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, a little biased having spent time in
Speaker 4: Roservay as you also have. I think how can we say,
Speaker 4: I'll give a bit of context. In twenty twenty three,
Speaker 4: I think this message went out from the CANDF to
Speaker 4: the forces in Rosova and I was there at the time.
Speaker 3: So was I really what? Yeah? Yeah, I was stared
Speaker 3: to say. We were there. We were both there at
Speaker 3: the same time. Everyone started hitting me up for book recommendations.
Speaker 3: It's like October, I didn't know that. Yeah, okay, right
Speaker 3: off Joctoba seventh, I think.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 4: Anyways, so yeah, when this came out, like some friends
Speaker 4: sent this to me and was like, hey, can you
Speaker 4: translate this? And I like, not only me when I
Speaker 4: saw it, but also all the friends in the leadership
Speaker 4: and you know, all of the comrades there were like
Speaker 4: very one surprised, but also very excited and very happy
Speaker 4: to kind of see a message like this. And I
Speaker 4: think also when the message was returned, you know, some
Speaker 4: of the friends from the leadership, you know, recorded this
Speaker 4: video message and sent it back. It was very much
Speaker 4: like a very pleasant, happy surprise for everyone involved, and
Speaker 4: it really showed the degree to which fundamentally we are
Speaker 4: fighting the same struggles, even though you know, maybe you
Speaker 4: know materially we're not talking about like guns going from
Speaker 4: one place to the other. Fundamentally were comrades on the
Speaker 4: same very very very long frontline now I think what
Speaker 4: that looks like locally, especially, I'm happy that you mentioned,
Speaker 4: like specifically the women's situation. You know, I myself sometimes
Speaker 4: when I'm giving training here, I like to show videos
Speaker 4: from certain parts of Kurdistan where they're very effective, we
Speaker 4: can say, And of course that naturally includes like the
Speaker 4: very very heavy participation of the women's guerrilla units as
Speaker 4: well as the men's guerrilla units, and specifically here and
Speaker 4: me andmar we see a very difficult situation in the
Speaker 4: revolution in regards to like the position of women, where
Speaker 4: because of I mean, it's a very new revolution. Lots
Speaker 4: of these people are you know, a couple of years ago,
Speaker 4: they were just in we can say liberal society. They
Speaker 4: weren't in any kind of you know, maybe at best
Speaker 4: activist context. But it's not like these people had a
Speaker 4: strong revolutionary platform and then they said, okay, let's launch
Speaker 4: a revolution against the dictatorship. It was a natural evolution
Speaker 4: from protest to resistance to revolution. No, So because of that,
Speaker 4: the same social structures that existed in liberal society were
Speaker 4: in a large part transplanted into resistance organizations, which means
Speaker 4: that yeah, of course, thousands and thousands of women from
Speaker 4: all over the country, have traveled to these camps, you know,
Speaker 4: have prepared and have ready themselves to fight against the dictatorship.
Speaker 4: But in a lot of ways they're still facing off against,
Speaker 4: you know, the patriarchy that is inherent in all of
Speaker 4: our modern society. Yeah, so I think Rajaba into much
Speaker 4: as like I think anybody can take Rajava as an inspiration.
Speaker 4: If there is anybody who, more so than anybody else,
Speaker 4: can take as an inspiration, it is women and youth.
Speaker 4: As that is, of course, like the revolutionary focus of
Speaker 4: the entire paradigm of the Rajava revolution. So I won't
Speaker 4: say that it's like, you know, like the leading inspiration
Speaker 4: for the people of me and mar or something, but
Speaker 4: definitely the people who have interacted with it or interfaced
Speaker 4: with it in some capacity, be it official or unofficial,
Speaker 4: of course, have gotten a lot of inspiration from that.
Speaker 4: And us as internationalists, both me as well as some
Speaker 4: other people here, you know, having had that in person
Speaker 4: experience with their Java revolution, of course for us as
Speaker 4: eternal inspiration.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's a really beautiful thing to see, like
Speaker 3: you said, just to see people like when we think
Speaker 3: about alliances in conflict, right, if we look at the
Speaker 3: extremely interactional way that the United States entered into those alliances. Right,
Speaker 3: it's willing to allow the people of forro Java to
Speaker 3: die for it in the battle against ISIS, or dash
Speaker 3: that it's not willing to stand by them when they're
Speaker 3: being bombed by Turkey. Right, something right, and you and
Speaker 3: I have both seen, but to see something that is
Speaker 3: said begins with genuine solidarity and admiration. One thing I
Speaker 3: really liked was when the K and DF replied to
Speaker 3: the video that came from Java. They said that they
Speaker 3: still had a lot to learn, especially with regards to gender,
Speaker 3: and like it's so rare to see revolutionary movements submitting
Speaker 3: their faults, especially during the struggle, right during the moment
Speaker 3: of revolution. And that's something that I've been so pressed
Speaker 3: with in Myanmar for a long time, is their willingness
Speaker 3: to like look out at the world and see things
Speaker 3: that they think are better and adopt them, or to
Speaker 3: at least consider them. It's the thing in Jaba too,
Speaker 3: some of their one of the friends in Rajaba said
Speaker 3: that they were excited to learn more about Meamma, because
Speaker 3: they hadn't worked everything out, and that they thought that
Speaker 3: there might be some solutions that they could learn from there,
Speaker 3: And so it's really special to see that that solidarity
Speaker 3: that comes from a very genuine place and not just
Speaker 3: it's not just rhetorical. There are people such as yourself
Speaker 3: who have made the journey to fight on behalf of
Speaker 3: the revolution in me Mma. But it's really a special thing.
Speaker 3: It's really a wonderful thing to see, especially like with
Speaker 3: the world seemingly getting more and more isolated and more
Speaker 3: and more nationalists as supposed to internationalists, Like, it's a
Speaker 3: really beautiful time for it to happen too.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, And I think I mean not to make the podcast,
Speaker 4: you know, a democratic and federalism ideologyism or something, but yeah,
Speaker 4: I think insofar as the revolution in Rajava considers itself
Speaker 4: a force on the side of democratic modernity, I think
Speaker 4: it's important to understand that they really mean it, Like
Speaker 4: they really do see the conflicts that we're facing today
Speaker 4: against the capitalist system, against capitalist modernity.
Speaker 2: They really do.
Speaker 4: See it in this all encompassing light that even though
Speaker 4: something is happening all the way over here in me
Speaker 4: and more and that maybe you could only tangentially connect
Speaker 4: to what's happening over there, they really do believe it
Speaker 4: when they say we are comrades in this same struggle.
Speaker 4: And that's why the solidarity is so beautiful to see,
Speaker 4: because it's that real solidarity. It's not just like, you know,
Speaker 4: pandering to some internationalist kind of sentiment.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: No, it's very real and it has its very genuine
Speaker 3: basis in sharing more than common interests. I will say, so,
Speaker 3: for people who are not as familiar with the struggle
Speaker 3: where you are, which is in chin Land, would you
Speaker 3: explain a little bit of I mean, obviously we can,
Speaker 3: and we will at some point explain a little bit
Speaker 3: more of the history of chin Lan. I think it's
Speaker 3: very important and it sometimes gets marginalized from even narrative
Speaker 3: of the revolution. But can you explain like the groups
Speaker 3: and the struggle as it has been since twenty twenty one?
Speaker 3: In many ways, Chinland is where the revolution, the arm
Speaker 3: revolution began, right, So can you explain how we get
Speaker 3: to a place today where in recent weeks we've seen
Speaker 3: massive victories in Chinland?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 4: So, as you know, the political situation at least between
Speaker 4: the groups is somewhat complicated. So I'll try my best
Speaker 4: to like most fairly, but also somehow accurately described. Yeah,
Speaker 4: I'll start from the history. We can say, as you
Speaker 4: described in and around mindhat, at the time of these protests,
Speaker 4: this was kind of like the catalyst and one of
Speaker 4: the places that actual armed resistance to this dictatorship started.
Speaker 4: And that wasn't armed resistance like with guns or something
Speaker 4: that was armed resistance like with the shotguns like double
Speaker 4: barrel shotguns from India, muzzle loading traditional hunting rifles and
Speaker 4: air guns and things like this. Yeah, and with that
Speaker 4: kind of weaponry, they were going and attacking police stations
Speaker 4: and checkpoints. So it really was a sign for everyone
Speaker 4: like not only the bravery of the people that are
Speaker 4: willing to do something like that, but the willingness and
Speaker 4: the risk that these people are able to take and
Speaker 4: the seriousness of their opposition to the dictatorship that look,
Speaker 4: this isn't just a protest anymore. Even we have only
Speaker 4: sticks and stones, we will dismantle this dictatorship.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: So, yeah, that was a very inspiring early period. And
Speaker 4: I think even before the involvement of some of the
Speaker 4: bigger ethnic armed organizations, there were already local CDFs, which
Speaker 4: stands for Chinland Defense Force, which is kind of just
Speaker 4: like PDF. It's a moniker that a lot of groups share.
Speaker 4: There were a lot of different PDFs and cdf popping
Speaker 4: up just in the days following the coup in Chinland.
Speaker 4: So yeah, like from the very beginning there was the
Speaker 4: precedent in the history of revolution there. Now these towns
Speaker 4: that were the beginning of the revolution have now been seized.
Speaker 4: So mind DOT as of last month was taken by
Speaker 4: the Chin Brotherhood Alliance as well as you know CDF,
Speaker 4: min DOTT and alliance partners. So the progress has definitely
Speaker 4: been made. The current landscape looks a little bit like this.
Speaker 4: In Chin state, there's two big blocks.
Speaker 2: We can say.
Speaker 4: One block is the Chin Brotherhood and one block is
Speaker 4: the Chinland Council. At first there was only one block
Speaker 4: called the ICNCC, which sends for Interim Chin National Coordinating
Speaker 4: Council or committee. I always forget the last ceime, and
Speaker 4: that was like the political big umbrella organization. And there
Speaker 4: was the CJDC, which is the military big umbrella organization
Speaker 4: that sends for chin Land Joint Defense Council or Committee.
Speaker 4: Again last see always in big us. So yeah, for
Speaker 4: a long time it was everyone including one of the
Speaker 4: you know, very old ethnic resistance organizations, the CNACNF, the
Speaker 4: Chin National Army, Chin National Front was kind of involved
Speaker 4: in this one big umbrella organization and everywhere there was
Speaker 4: resistance against the dictatorship and on some level cooperation both
Speaker 4: with Chin groups as well as with the enug In
Speaker 4: twenty twenty three, political events occurred and as we can
Speaker 4: say politely, a disagreement in the political future of Chinland
Speaker 4: separated into two groups, with CNACNF withdrawing from the CJDC
Speaker 4: and forming their Chinlen Council, and the groups that kind
Speaker 4: of subscribed to that vision and subscribed to that path
Speaker 4: they joined the new Chinlen Council and all of the
Speaker 4: groups that remained in the CJDC in the ICNCC continued
Speaker 4: to hold on to the ICNCC as a kind of
Speaker 4: platform and umbrella organization for the people in Chin State
Speaker 4: that didn't want subscribed to this new path. And then
Speaker 4: Chin Brotherhood was formed as the new practical military alliance
Speaker 4: of those people who remained, we can say, and since then,
Speaker 4: in only one year, I mean, both sides have have
Speaker 4: had very incredible victories. No Chin Then Council has been
Speaker 4: able to in the north of Chin State liberate Chika
Speaker 4: and Tunzongtown, and then of course in the south of
Speaker 4: Chin State, Chinbler has been able to take Matupe and
Speaker 4: Contellette and Mindat. So definitely victories all around. But yeah,
Speaker 4: I'll stop myself before I comment to much more on that. Yeah,
Speaker 4: but victories, it would have been unimaginable.
Speaker 3: Three years. I mean, we're almost exactly three years from
Speaker 3: the beginning of the revolution. Four years guy, yeah, twenty
Speaker 3: twenty five, god, yeah, yeah, four years from the beginning
Speaker 3: of the revolution. When, as you say, like those videos,
Speaker 3: that was when I first became aware of the post
Speaker 3: coup resistance, was seeing videos online of people with those
Speaker 3: traditional muzzle loading hunting rifles but taking on police checkpoints
Speaker 3: or attempted to organize the armed resistance and those little
Speaker 3: air guns with the made of the blue plumbing pipe
Speaker 3: like they It was incredible. It's the bravery of the
Speaker 3: people and their commitment and their willingness to risk their
Speaker 3: lives and sometimes lose their lives because like as one
Speaker 3: revolutionary doctor told me a few years ago, he said, like,
Speaker 3: my grandparents died for democracy, and my parents' generation died
Speaker 3: for it, and we don't think another generation should have
Speaker 3: to die for it, so like we're all prepared to
Speaker 3: go down fighting for this, which I thought, you know,
Speaker 3: was really impactful. And then he was right that their
Speaker 3: willingness to risk their lives and to be so brave
Speaker 3: is unparalleled. And the revolution wouldn't have got to where
Speaker 3: it's got to. But it's such a beautiful thing that
Speaker 3: it has. I wonder, like it's a crucial time for
Speaker 3: the revolution now, right, Like the revolution is as successful
Speaker 3: as ever been, we're reaching the fifth year. Can you explain,
Speaker 3: like the role of the AIF within the broader revolution,
Speaker 3: because I think people get really confused by all the acronyms,
Speaker 3: and it can be easy to think that these groups
Speaker 3: and it's an alphabet stup right, I'm writing a book
Speaker 3: about this and Spain, and like I've spent most of
Speaker 3: the last week just trying to write the dictionary of
Speaker 3: acronyms that goes in the back of the book. But like,
Speaker 3: can you explain if these aren't groups sort are necessarily
Speaker 3: sometimes they are opposed to each other, they have different
Speaker 3: visions for the future. But can you explain the role
Speaker 3: of the af within the broad anti hunter movement?
Speaker 4: Sure, first I'll say I'm reading a book right now
Speaker 4: about like the history of the Communist Party of Burma,
Speaker 4: and that history goes from like, you know, the thirties
Speaker 4: all the way to the nineties, and every single page
Speaker 4: has at least ten different acronyms, and it's absolutely insane.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4: About the AIF, the Anti Fascist Internationalist Front, which I'm
Speaker 4: hoping everyone just recognizes as AIF because it's kind of
Speaker 4: a mouthful. Our perspective so far has been that, especially
Speaker 4: as foreigners, especial as like foreign foreigners, you know, like
Speaker 4: Western foreigners. Yeah, we really want to avoid as much
Speaker 4: as possible the perception of we're coming here, you know,
Speaker 4: we've got military experience, or we've got this knowledge, or
Speaker 4: we've got that knowledge, and now it's time. Now it's
Speaker 4: time for us to tell you what to do, or
Speaker 4: now it's time for us to train or something like that. Yeah,
Speaker 4: I would say our perspective is much more closer to
Speaker 4: the perspective of the you know, the international structures in
Speaker 4: ra Java. Our goal is recognizing that this enemy, the
Speaker 4: Essays dictatorship, the Essays junta, is fundamentally a fascist, anti
Speaker 4: human enemy. That makes it also our struggle and so
Speaker 4: not in some kind of like presumptive way, or not
Speaker 4: in some kind of like imposing way, but in a
Speaker 4: very genuine and organic manner. We want to come here
Speaker 4: and implement ourselves into the revolution. Now, we have some
Speaker 4: friends who are coming who maybe have previous experience with
Speaker 4: this or with that, and in their capacity, of course
Speaker 4: they give training. Because the people here have the comrades,
Speaker 4: have been overwhelmingly receved to training like this. You know
Speaker 4: that there's been no pride or no like, oh, we
Speaker 4: don't need the help.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Quite contrarily, everyone at all stages, even the nug is
Speaker 4: saying I'm not talking about us, I'm just talking about publicly,
Speaker 4: you know, to everyone is saying, whatever help we can get,
Speaker 4: we appreciate it.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: But you know, we're not just bringing people who are
Speaker 4: you know, Rajava veterans or veterans of some conflict where
Speaker 4: they can come and give training. Fundamentally, it's an anti
Speaker 4: fascist conflict, which means even people without experience are able
Speaker 4: to come and not only participate in the revolution, but
Speaker 4: in a less transactory way, not to say like, oh
Speaker 4: I have something and I will give it to the revolution,
Speaker 4: And the most important way is to come and to
Speaker 4: learn from the revolution exactly as you said. Even a
Speaker 4: revolution like Rojava, which has decades and decades of history
Speaker 4: and tradition and culture and ideology and is steeped in
Speaker 4: this Yeah, I would say, you know, one of the
Speaker 4: most powerful, prominent revolutions of our time. Yeah, is still
Speaker 4: able to say a revolution like this, of course we
Speaker 4: can learn from it. We need to learn from the
Speaker 4: struggles of our comrades there to learn from the developments
Speaker 4: happening in this revolution. Our perspective in AIF is very
Speaker 4: much the same where yeah, okay, maybe we have some
Speaker 4: limited material things we can contribute, but ultimately it's about
Speaker 4: organically participating in this revolution which is against fascism, and
Speaker 4: in our own ways, to take the lessons of this revolution,
Speaker 4: to take the fundamental meaning of this revolution and be
Speaker 4: able to translate it for ourselves and for of course
Speaker 4: the future works.
Speaker 2: Which are ahead of us. Shall we say, Yeah.
Speaker 3: I remember when this much much younger talking to veteran
Speaker 3: of the International Group, an anarchist veteran, No, it's from
Speaker 3: the International Brigade, to correct myself, and I asked him
Speaker 3: to explain anti fascism to me, and he said that
Speaker 3: for him, like when someone devalues humanity like the hunter
Speaker 3: does in Francoist did in Spain, right, liked did in Syria,
Speaker 3: it debases his own humanity, and like anyone who attacks
Speaker 3: humanity in that way is at him and all humanity,
Speaker 3: And therefore it's the responsibility of all humanity to defend humanity,
Speaker 3: to defend compassion in kindness.
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think what you're doing in Myanmar is part
Speaker 3: of that desire to defend humanity against inhumanity, against whatever
Speaker 3: we want to call it. What are the struggles that
Speaker 3: the revolution faces? Like, I know you guys have recently
Speaker 3: been doing a fundraising campaign, for example, and the revolution
Speaker 3: is almost unique in its complete lack of solidarity from
Speaker 3: the states of the world. Right, there is not a
Speaker 3: state that is backing this revolution. It is entirely the
Speaker 3: force of the people of meanbar. So can you explain
Speaker 3: some of the struggles within the revolution? Perhaps because of that?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, as much as some people you know,
Speaker 4: like to say CIA or something like this, of course,
Speaker 4: the reality is that, you know, I've heard the term
Speaker 4: crowdfunded revolution.
Speaker 2: I think it's incredibly accurate.
Speaker 4: Yeah, because no, in the af we recently did a
Speaker 4: fundraiser for vehicles and equipment and things like this. But
Speaker 4: that's on our scale. On the scale of these organizations,
Speaker 4: I mean, they are fundraising from the diaspora millions and
Speaker 4: millions of dollars to be able to wage this resistance.
Speaker 4: And of course even like local people who themselves maybe
Speaker 4: don't have a lot are giving everything they can or
Speaker 4: or anyway acting any way they can, or doing anything
Speaker 4: they can to help the revolution. So we can say
Speaker 4: overwhelmingly it is a popular resistance, even I would go
Speaker 4: so far as to say it is fundamentally a people's
Speaker 4: resistance against the dictatorship. That of course represents itself in
Speaker 4: a lot of different organizations. But these organizations enjoy the
Speaker 4: like ninety five percent support of the people against the junta,
Speaker 4: you know. Yeah, so yeah, in that regard, the challenge,
Speaker 4: of course is always resources and always the strength of
Speaker 4: the enemy. No, we're still going up against jet fighters, helicopters, mortars, artillery. Yeah,
Speaker 4: you know, they have a lot of AMMO, us not
Speaker 4: so much. So there's like lots of these practical problems,
Speaker 4: I think, how can we say, cynical kind of As
Speaker 4: you mentioned earlier, Western outlook has been to paint this
Speaker 4: struggle kind of in Oh, it's a tribal struggle. There's
Speaker 4: all these different groups, they're all fighting for their own area.
Speaker 4: What's going to happen after they win? Now, I disagree
Speaker 4: with that assessment obviously. I think you know yourself as
Speaker 4: you're familiar with the conflict. I think it's much deeper
Speaker 4: than that. And even across these many different identities and cultures,
Speaker 4: there's very deep, very real coordination and cooperation where I
Speaker 4: don't think it's just like chaotic. But on the other hand,
Speaker 4: that is a you know, not to give the cynics credit.
Speaker 4: That is a question which going forward will politically very
Speaker 4: much be on the agenta because I mean, now, as
Speaker 4: you're seeing, most of the country is no longer in
Speaker 4: the junta's control, and the parts that are in the
Speaker 4: junta's control are contested, and then you have the tiny
Speaker 4: sliver of land which they can say they somehow without
Speaker 4: any kind of you know, contestion control. So very soon
Speaker 4: the onus will be on revolutionary forces to answer that question, Okay,
Speaker 4: how are we going to consolidate? How are we going
Speaker 4: to transfer these winds on the battlefield into something that
Speaker 4: is more permanent and more lasting. And I think you
Speaker 4: know already as you're seeing in Chinn State that I
Speaker 4: can speak of and that people are seeing and elsewhere
Speaker 4: that I can't speak of because I don't know. There
Speaker 4: are definitely frictions. You know, I'm not going to say
Speaker 4: it's perfect. Everyone is smiling, everyone is working together, and
Speaker 4: there's frictions that will have to be worked through. But fundamentally,
Speaker 4: I think the trajectory as it currently is is positive
Speaker 4: for the resistance.
Speaker 2: We can say, yeah, definitely.
Speaker 3: I was talking to someone yesterday in another part of
Speaker 3: me Imma, and I was saying, you know, I'm going
Speaker 3: to come visit you, hopefully soon, and he was saying, like, oh,
Speaker 3: you'll have it. Like just to be in the liberated
Speaker 3: zone is so special. Talk to us about like liberated
Speaker 3: chin Land, right min Dat's just been liberated. Large areas
Speaker 3: have been under the control of semi control of addictive
Speaker 3: satorial regime that has been extremely oppressive to the Chin
Speaker 3: people for decades. Like how are people receiving their liberty?
Speaker 3: How are they governing themselves or tempting to take care
Speaker 3: of one another in these liberated spaces?
Speaker 2: Sure?
Speaker 4: Well, I think the first thing I'll say is maybe
Speaker 4: to contrast to other parts of Meanwhile, we've been relatively
Speaker 4: lucky in Chinn State, and that even you know, for
Speaker 4: some years already the junta, due to the mountainous nature
Speaker 4: of Chin State, has anyway been reduced to the cities
Speaker 4: for years. Like all of their checkpoints, all of their
Speaker 4: like external places, the last of those were cleared in
Speaker 4: twenty twenty three, and most of them anyway in twenty
Speaker 4: twenty two were gone, so by land mass. Even before
Speaker 4: these towns were seized, the junta controlled if you were
Speaker 4: to add up all of the area that they actually
Speaker 4: physically control in Chin State, maybe a couple square kilometers,
Speaker 4: you know, just the area of like their bases and
Speaker 4: something like that.
Speaker 3: Ye.
Speaker 4: So because of the nature of Chin State, they never
Speaker 4: had the of course they did these atrousts and massacres
Speaker 4: and things like this, but on the kind of like
Speaker 4: you know, fascist dictatorship level of oppression. Since after the revolution,
Speaker 4: they had not really had the opportunity to impose themselves
Speaker 4: too much. They were the ones kind of cowering in
Speaker 4: their corner. Yeah, but I think especially after these towns
Speaker 4: are being seized. Now you know, take Ricodar, which is
Speaker 4: the border town on India, or take mind Otom or Tupi.
Speaker 4: These towns that have just been recently seized, these are
Speaker 4: towns which people are wanting to live their lives. I mean,
Speaker 4: Chin State has always been autonomous, even in British rule,
Speaker 4: in colonial rule, it was just labeled as unadministered, you know,
Speaker 4: and there was a very rich democratic tradition or how
Speaker 4: can we say, maybe not democratic in the traditional sense,
Speaker 4: but tradition of self rule and autonomy in Chin State,
Speaker 4: and the removal of the junta from these areas is
Speaker 4: allowing those relationships to much more naturally flourish. And I
Speaker 4: think the aspiration of a lot of people both abroad
Speaker 4: as well as internally displaced from Chin State is to
Speaker 4: return to those places where there's been fighting and to
Speaker 4: continue their lives as normal. Which I think finally now
Speaker 4: that not just in Gen State, but all over the country,
Speaker 4: we're slowly seeing these alternative systems of you know, let's
Speaker 4: not call them like communist or revolutionary or anything, but
Speaker 4: fundamentally they are alternative to the state administration system.
Speaker 3: Yeah. And I think that narrative that you pushed back
Speaker 3: on already, that like, and we've seen it from so
Speaker 3: many every think tank, every analyst ever every so called
Speaker 3: expert has said the Eros will only fight for their territory.
Speaker 3: When they've reached the limits of what they consider to
Speaker 3: be their like ethnic homeland, they will stop. And that
Speaker 3: hasn't happened, right, It's not happened anywhere. But the fact
Speaker 3: that even if it did, right, or even if some
Speaker 3: of these Eros have visions for the future which is
Speaker 3: not as liberatory as maybe you and I would like
Speaker 3: the fact that there are parts of Bamma that are
Speaker 3: free now and that where people can live their lives
Speaker 3: as they wish will never change, and that will mean
Speaker 3: that those places are always there for people to go to.
Speaker 3: And like, I'm sure lots of people you're fighting with
Speaker 3: and alongside have come to Chinland, right like, like not
Speaker 3: all of them will be would have spent their whole lives,
Speaker 3: yet they they'll have come there from. But my majority
Speaker 3: cities maybe is that correct?
Speaker 4: Look like not to give any specifics, so I'll just
Speaker 4: make a very broad term to exaggerate the fact. You
Speaker 4: can say that I have met somebody from almost every
Speaker 4: single group in me a mark in Chinn State. Yeah,
Speaker 4: Now that's just to say that's not to like, you know,
Speaker 4: be shocking or something that's just to highlight the level
Speaker 4: of interconnectedness logistically, materially, militarily, you know, even if it's
Speaker 4: just someone sending someone to say.
Speaker 2: Hi from somewhere. You know.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's not like, oh, everyone's in their corners fighting.
Speaker 4: I mean, I promise you there are soldiers here which
Speaker 4: are giving their lives for the towns in Chin State,
Speaker 4: which maybe they never even thought about Chinn State before
Speaker 4: this revolution.
Speaker 2: You know, they're coming from opposite sides of the country. Yeah.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, it's fundamentally a fight against the dictatorship. It's not
Speaker 4: the fight to liberate Inland or to liberate Kadeni or
Speaker 4: something like this.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I remember speaking to mandal a PDF a while
Speaker 3: ago and they were saying to me, like they were
Speaker 3: really scared when they first left the cities because they've
Speaker 3: been told that like wild people lived in the mountains.
Speaker 3: Yeah at that now we're wild people, we like the
Speaker 3: wild people like. But yeah, this this narrative, I mean,
Speaker 3: James C. Scott talks about this right in the Art
Speaker 3: of not being governed, this idea that these mountains were
Speaker 3: never really places that are amenable to state control, and
Speaker 3: that now there are places where people can go to
Speaker 3: avoid it. But it's also important that this revolution extends
Speaker 3: beyond the mountains and into the cities, and that people
Speaker 3: are living there don't have to live under the bootheel
Speaker 3: of a dictatorial state, which is which is what's happening right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, people will.
Speaker 3: Be listening to this, I'm sure and like thinking this
Speaker 3: is laudable, this is incredible, and a they'll be shocked
Speaker 3: that they haven't heard about this, maybe, especially if the
Speaker 3: newer listeners. And I do want to say that, like
Speaker 3: you can go back and listen to our other coverage
Speaker 3: on MEMA. There is a lot. But like in terms
Speaker 3: of conflicts, right, conflict is always messy and war is
Speaker 3: never inherently a beautiful thing. Beautiful things can happen, it was,
Speaker 3: but we rarely see wars where there is so much
Speaker 3: good on one side and so much evil on the other.
Speaker 3: And why do you think that the especially the Western
Speaker 3: media has largely overlooked the conflict in Mema.
Speaker 2: It's a good question.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I will say, just on a very base level,
Speaker 4: without getting into any kind of like you know, pondering
Speaker 4: or something like that. I've spoken with a few journalists
Speaker 4: and you know, before anything, before we even talk about
Speaker 4: politics or something. There is just the material calculation that
Speaker 4: these outlets are making. From what I understand from what
Speaker 4: I have heard, people don't care. Now that's really unfortunate.
Speaker 4: But like these like big networks, you know, CNN, whatever, Yeah,
Speaker 4: I have to make the calculation of the people they
Speaker 4: send and the risk to send them, and the actual
Speaker 4: exposure that these news articles will get. From what I
Speaker 4: understand conversations that I've had with some people that are
Speaker 4: you know, involved in these networks right now, there is
Speaker 4: not on like the executive board level. There's just not
Speaker 4: a lot of push to cover me in market and
Speaker 4: that's you know, that's really unfortunate. And I think one
Speaker 4: really bad side effect of that is whenever there's a tragedy,
Speaker 4: the media is there. Yeah, you know, like whenever there's
Speaker 4: some massacre, or whenever there's some you know, intertribal conflict,
Speaker 4: or whenever there's something bad to report about, or maybe
Speaker 4: you know, on a good day, they're really big, like
Speaker 4: a win like in last year that we saw you know, yeah, okay, yeah,
Speaker 4: for these big things that Western media will be there.
Speaker 4: But I think even from recording these very like click
Speaker 4: baity eye catching things, it seems like they're not getting
Speaker 4: the exposure that they want to get out of this content,
Speaker 4: which is putting them off of covering the you know,
Speaker 4: in our opinion, much more meaningful wall to wall content
Speaker 4: that exists, I mean every day in me and Mark. Yeah,
Speaker 4: it seems like this Western eye is only interested in
Speaker 4: the suffering, we can say, which is really unfortunate. But
Speaker 4: you know, even if the media is not paying attention,
Speaker 4: we can say, for better or worse, the governments are
Speaker 4: paying attention absolutely, I mean almost like hawks.
Speaker 2: You can say.
Speaker 4: There are every single regional government as well as foreign
Speaker 4: governments of course, keeping a very close eye on the situation,
Speaker 4: circling looking at developments, I mean China especially no being
Speaker 4: being very.
Speaker 2: Involved in the process.
Speaker 4: Yeah so yeah, Well, unfortunately the kind of liberal media
Speaker 4: I is not so much you know, giving me and
Speaker 4: more of the coverage that it deserves. As a popular revolution,
Speaker 4: the powers at b are definitely watching its progression, we
Speaker 4: can say.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean it offers an alternative for
Speaker 3: the world that like it's distinct even from a java,
Speaker 3: like the building of a revolutionary movement, like you said,
Speaker 3: the crowdfunded revolution, the revolution that like.
Speaker 2: Entirely.
Speaker 3: I mean at points armed itself using gums, it downloaded
Speaker 3: off the internet. You know, it offers sometimes I think
Speaker 3: when I'm thinking about, you know, my background in studying
Speaker 3: anarchists in Spain, and like obviously I've looked a lot
Speaker 3: at the past, but it gives me a vision of
Speaker 3: the future, Like and it's only in covering the small
Speaker 3: parts of the revolution that make it truly a revolution
Speaker 3: that we can see that. Like you have an Instagram
Speaker 3: and on there you're posting about training sometimes when you're
Speaker 3: doing the trainings and there are women who are coming
Speaker 3: to train, you know, with rifles to be I was
Speaker 3: gonna say, Marx, Marx people, I guess like the people.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, only US military guys are weird about calling
Speaker 4: things snipers.
Speaker 2: Yeah there's snipers.
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, yeah, let's do that, Okay. In the moment
Speaker 3: that that they receive that training and become like efficient
Speaker 3: with their weapons, like a revolution happens for that woman.
Speaker 3: And it's only through like following those those little revolutions
Speaker 3: that happen every day that make up a big revolution
Speaker 3: that we truly understand it. And I'm sure that's something
Speaker 3: that like you're seeing on a daily or weekly basis, right,
Speaker 3: like people's world's opening up and their horizons changing because
Speaker 3: of a revolution.
Speaker 4: Well, listen absolutely now, of course, you know, as as
Speaker 4: leftists involved or interested in this revolution studying it, whether
Speaker 4: you're a socialist, whether you're anarchists, whether you're a communist,
Speaker 4: whether you're oppilist. You know, however you like to describe
Speaker 4: yourself whatever flavor you are, you know, without pontificating too much.
Speaker 4: I think fundamentally this revolution is a symbol of hope
Speaker 4: that it can be done. No, Like, I'll give an
Speaker 4: example from the conversations that I've had with the comrades
Speaker 4: that have been involved in this revolution since it was
Speaker 4: just a protest movement in the streets. Ye, one thing
Speaker 4: that I've heard a lot is that at the beginning
Speaker 4: of the revolution, when it switched, you know, when the
Speaker 4: police were fine blows into the crowds, and when people
Speaker 4: made this decision that okay, now we have no choice
Speaker 4: but armed resistance, We have no choice but to fight
Speaker 4: the dictatorship. When that calculus was made, When that decision
Speaker 4: was made, it was not made based on the kind
Speaker 4: of analysis of the situation that they could even win. Yeah,
Speaker 4: it was not even like, Okay, we're going to do
Speaker 4: this and we have this strategy of guerrilla war, and
Speaker 4: then we'll do this, this and this, and then we'll
Speaker 4: achieve the victory. The calculation that was made was a
Speaker 4: moral calculation. It was saying, we have the choice. We
Speaker 4: can go back to our life. We can accept this suppression,
Speaker 4: we can give up this struggle for democracy that we've
Speaker 4: been waging in one form or another, or we can
Speaker 4: make the decision to fight even if we won't win.
Speaker 4: It's the moral imperative to resist dictatorship. And I think
Speaker 4: what this revolution is showing not just for the people
Speaker 4: who themselves were surprised at their capability and were themselves
Speaker 4: surprised at what they could accomplish when they actually stepped
Speaker 4: up and fought and sacrificed for revolution. Fundamentally, it's a
Speaker 4: message to everyone. It says, Look, these people at the
Speaker 4: beginning were going at checkpoints with like double barrels and
Speaker 4: air rifles, and at the end now they are like
Speaker 4: threatening to overthrow what was previously assumed to be one
Speaker 4: of the most powerful militaries in Southeastern Asia. I mean,
Speaker 4: like everyone jokes on the top of Dow because they're
Speaker 4: obviously garbage now, but like at the time, that wasn't
Speaker 4: That wasn't the analysis. You know, it would be the
Speaker 4: same as saying like, oh, you know, we're going to
Speaker 4: overthrow the USA or something like that. It was fundamentally
Speaker 4: people didn't even envision the victory, but on the moral
Speaker 4: principle to resist, they've resisted, and from that moral position
Speaker 4: they were able to materialize the victory that they had
Speaker 4: previously not even imagined.
Speaker 2: So, you know, for me, that's what I take away.
Speaker 4: There's no books, there's no ideological books here that you
Speaker 4: can study and understand the underpinnings of the revolution. You know,
Speaker 4: there's no classes that you can go to that the
Speaker 4: PDF teaches you about what their revolutionary paradigm is. Fundamentally,
Speaker 4: it's a fight of the people against oppression and against dictatorship.
Speaker 4: And while of course there's some strengths and some weaknesses
Speaker 4: that we face in the revolution, ultimately, in the same
Speaker 4: way as Rajaba, in the same place as other places
Speaker 4: in the world, it's a beacon of hope for democratic
Speaker 4: people who envision themselves fighting on the side of freedom
Speaker 4: that actually, yeah, you can win.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's given me so much hope like at a
Speaker 3: time the last few years when we've all desperately needed
Speaker 3: something good to happen. Like something good is happening in
Speaker 3: it incredibly good through them. Yeah, Like it's breathtaking. Like
Speaker 3: I went in twenty twenty two during the first year
Speaker 3: of the revolution, and I was shopping around this story
Speaker 3: for months, right. I knew these guys who were doing
Speaker 3: the three D printing, and I went to every major outlet.
Speaker 3: I was like, this is the story that's going to
Speaker 3: make people care, and no one bought it until eventually
Speaker 3: Cool Zone did and here I am. But like even
Speaker 3: twenty twenty one, twenty two, talking to those guys, I
Speaker 3: was like, they might all die. It's still been worth
Speaker 3: it for them, but they might all be gone in
Speaker 3: a year. Unfortunately familiar with that from my line of work,
Speaker 3: but like to see it succeed, it's so like incredible.
Speaker 3: It's obviously war is terrible, and terrible things have happened
Speaker 3: in the war, but like it's such a beautiful thing
Speaker 3: to see people refuse to accept tyranny and just through
Speaker 3: the tenacity of their refusal to create liberated spaces and
Speaker 3: to now threaten to topple Like you say one of
Speaker 3: what had previously been a feared army in the region.
Speaker 3: Like it continues to amaze me every day, every every
Speaker 3: time I see people dancing in front of a captured
Speaker 3: military headquarters or I don't. It's just such a such
Speaker 3: a remarkable revolution. Is that if people wish to be
Speaker 3: in solidarity, if they wish to follow the AIF, if
Speaker 3: they want to learn more about the af where can
Speaker 3: they do that at their places online? Or are there
Speaker 3: ways that they can support you aside from obviously like
Speaker 3: being part of the struggle, Like how can they help you?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 4: Me personally, My information platform is mostly on Instagram, where
Speaker 4: I post updates about you know, either insights about what's
Speaker 4: going on or news updates or something like that. And
Speaker 4: that's Azad underscore AFA on Instagraram.
Speaker 3: Spell out Azade for the non courtage speakers.
Speaker 4: A Zad a z A d if you will yep
Speaker 4: Thanky underscore AFA on Instagram. The AIF also has an
Speaker 4: Instagram for like official posts, it's AIF me and more
Speaker 4: in general about the AIF, especially at this early stages.
Speaker 4: Right now, we're involved in some frontlines in western Meanmar
Speaker 4: and so because of that, we don't really have a
Speaker 4: lot of information presence out right now, but in the
Speaker 4: coming weeks, in the coming months, definitely when things get published,
Speaker 4: when more things like that come out, they will come
Speaker 4: out from kind of the existing distribution circles.
Speaker 2: That have been going around, like libcom.
Speaker 4: There has been like statements going out as well as Instagram,
Speaker 4: perr things like that. Yeah, and recently we just completed
Speaker 4: a fundraiser. Our goal was ten thousand dollars for the
Speaker 4: vehicles and the equipment that we will needed to get started. Yeah,
Speaker 4: for listeners who don't know, maybe yeah, maybe they're not aware.
Speaker 4: This only started in October of last year, so we're
Speaker 4: still in the stages of consolidating and getting our equipment.
Speaker 4: We set the goal for ten thousand dollars and we
Speaker 4: exceeded it. We raised over thirteen thousand dollars for that,
Speaker 4: So yeah, we're very happy to say that. But in
Speaker 4: the future, of course, there will always be more opportunities.
Speaker 4: As you know, revolution is very expensive, so yeah, on
Speaker 4: all fundraising platforms we have PayPal, cash app, and Venmo
Speaker 4: and all of those are aif me and more. And yeah,
Speaker 4: in the future, hopefully we will have more news both
Speaker 4: about what's happening in me and more are both how
Speaker 4: we specifically are involved, as well as just very exciting
Speaker 4: footage we can say we hope to share soon.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that'd be great to see, and I hope you'll
Speaker 3: come back and join us again, and maybe we can
Speaker 3: delve into a little bit more of the history of
Speaker 3: the revolution and the revolution in chin Land specifically, because
Speaker 3: I think these are things that we need to cover
Speaker 3: more and I'd love to give people a place to
Speaker 3: learn about them. Yeah, absolutely great, Thank you so much.
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