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Speaker 1: Als media.

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Speaker 2: Hi everyone, and welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 3: It's me James today and I am very lucky to

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Speaker 3: be joined by Azad, who is fighting in Mianma Chinland

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Speaker 3: specifically with the AIF. Welcome to the show, Zad, thanks

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Speaker 3: for being here.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks for having me on of course. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: This has been a project that, like I've been following

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Speaker 3: from Afar for some time, maybe several months now I think.

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Speaker 3: But for listeners who have not been following, can you

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Speaker 3: explain very briefly the role of the AIF in the

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Speaker 3: struggle in Miamma.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, sure, getting right into it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, first I'd like to give a little bit of

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Speaker 4: a spiel about like the context of the AIF maybe

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Speaker 4: for people who aren't so familiar. Yeah, in Burma already,

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Speaker 4: for decades there have been some kind of established president

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Speaker 4: of we can say, foreign volunteers of some kind or

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Speaker 4: you know, ex military personnel or you know somebody who

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Speaker 4: is somehow drawn to the conflict. There has already been

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Speaker 4: the present cident for some decades of people coming in

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Speaker 4: a very limited capacity and helping with this group or

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Speaker 4: that group. But it mostly has been participation of two

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Speaker 4: big characteristics. The first characteristic is that of course, it's

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Speaker 4: been an individual basis. Like whoever individual had this idea,

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Speaker 4: they organized it themselves, they handled it themselves, with the

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Speaker 4: exception of like the freewom arrangers, but I wouldn't classify

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Speaker 4: them as like, you know, foreign fighters or anything.

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Speaker 2: They do very very.

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Speaker 3: Good work, but yeah, slightly different role.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: The people who did this kind of stuff were mostly

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Speaker 4: coming as individuals, you know, kind of on their own prerogative.

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Speaker 4: And secondly, they were overwhelmingly we can say, non political

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Speaker 4: or you know, ex military guys from Western nations or

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Speaker 4: you know, from neighboring countries who were somehow drawn to

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Speaker 4: the conflict and wanted to use their skills in that

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Speaker 4: kind of light. The AIF, on the other hand, is

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Speaker 4: absolutely by no means like the foreign Fighter Organization in

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Speaker 4: mean Moore or it's not like the foreign battalion or

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Speaker 4: that's also not with the and the mission is it

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Speaker 4: specifically came about after twenty twenty three twenty twenty four,

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Speaker 4: there were slowly more internationals in the country.

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Speaker 2: Internationalists we can say, yeah, who.

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Speaker 4: Were here on a much more yeah, albeit at the beginning,

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Speaker 4: individual it was the same where people were organizing their

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Speaker 4: own ways, organizing their own routes and connections, but with

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Speaker 4: a much more different perspective of this kind of more

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Speaker 4: intentional anti fascist internationalist perspective, yeah, which led over into

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Speaker 4: the name. So kind of as as a result of

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Speaker 4: discussions between me and some other people who were here

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Speaker 4: and also some other people outside the country, the idea

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Speaker 4: to set up a formation or an organization like this

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Speaker 4: was floated, and of course after talking with local partners

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Speaker 4: and local comrades who anyway were involved with on the ground,

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Speaker 4: there was a lot of enthusiasm on both sides, both

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Speaker 4: from people outside the country, both from people inside the country.

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Speaker 4: So kind of within that context, the idea to take

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Speaker 4: a step forward in a more organized, explicit the consistent Yeah,

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Speaker 4: to use a polite word, of consistent perspective for internationalism

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Speaker 4: and minmoir, that was kind of the goal.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And if people aren't familiar, it's the Anti Fascist

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Speaker 3: Internationalist Front, right. The AIF has a really cool logo

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Speaker 3: with the the peacock tail and the three arrows and

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Speaker 3: the like the white star in a red background that

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Speaker 3: I thought that was I really appreciate your logo. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: so yeah, I think people will like when they talk

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Speaker 3: about the conflict in Memma. They will be like, oh,

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Speaker 3: why are they? Why is there not more internationalism and

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Speaker 3: why is there not more international volunteers. Something that you

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Speaker 3: and I have spoken about before is that, like, this

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Speaker 3: has always been an international conflict, right, and it's always

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Speaker 3: been an anti fascist conflict as well. Do you want

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Speaker 3: to explain that to people who because I think sometimes

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Speaker 3: it's easy for people to fall into these orientalists or

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Speaker 3: somewhat colonialist constructions of the conflict there, and I think

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Speaker 3: you and I both agree that those are not the

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Speaker 3: lens through which we should view it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I mean, of course, the history of let's just use

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Speaker 4: a big term, the history of conflict in Burma is

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Speaker 4: of course very deep and very complex and has a

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Speaker 4: thousand different ethnic and political you know, branches that.

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Speaker 2: You can go down.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, But if we're really focusing in on this post

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Speaker 4: coup situation, which even though it has its roots and

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Speaker 4: its context in of course the pre coup, with you know,

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Speaker 4: the existing Ethink resistance organizations and the democracy movement, if

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Speaker 4: we're really looking at the conflict post twenty twenty one coup, fundamentally,

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Speaker 4: it is not any one nations struggle. It is not

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Speaker 4: anyone's people's struggle. It is not even like a national

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Speaker 4: struggle of Burma. We can say it is fundamentally a

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Speaker 4: fight against fascism. It is an anti fascist people's revolution.

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Speaker 4: Where after, of course, the coup and after these initial

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Speaker 4: stages of protest and uprising, the people were faced by

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Speaker 4: a choice of do we accept dictatorship, do we go

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Speaker 4: back and do we live like normal? Do we accept fascism,

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Speaker 4: do we live under fascism? Or do we prepare to

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Speaker 4: sacrifice everything to fight against fascism? And that was the

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Speaker 4: fundamental calculation in that So in so far as it's

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Speaker 4: to fight against fascism, that makes it an international struggle

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Speaker 4: in itself, I mean, without even you know, going on

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Speaker 4: too much about how anyways, the so called nation of

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Speaker 4: Burma is dozens and dozens and dozens of different ethnicities

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Speaker 4: and religions and cultures, which I mean, if you aren't

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Speaker 4: thinking in the traditional nation state sense of internationalism and

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Speaker 4: more thinking in the kind of brotherhood of cultures and traditions,

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Speaker 4: then yeah, of course, without the flashy you know, foreigners coming,

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Speaker 4: it's already an internationalist struggle against fascism. But I think,

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Speaker 4: you know, on a more intentional level, the dictatorship represents

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Speaker 4: fundamentally the same fascism that exists all over the world,

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Speaker 4: fundamentally state oppression. So yeah, in that regard, it's very

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Speaker 4: much an international struggle.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And something we've spoken about before is like the link.

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Speaker 3: So the inspiration I guess that comes from the internationalist

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Speaker 3: struggle in North and East Syria and Java, and how

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Speaker 3: that's very much been like a source of inspiration for

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Speaker 3: young people in MR. I've spoken to tons of them

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Speaker 3: even two years ago, especially young women there right look

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Speaker 3: looking at the women's revolution in Rajava and seeing like

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Speaker 3: that this was a possibility, that this was something like

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Speaker 3: on the horizon that they could strive for. Do you

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Speaker 3: want to explain like your own perceptions of that inexperience

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Speaker 3: of it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, sure, Well, first, you know, not to overstate things. Well,

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Speaker 4: of course Rojava is a big inspiration I think, not

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Speaker 4: just for the people here in me and mar but

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Speaker 4: truly like a beacon of hope in general.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, a little biased having spent time in

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Speaker 4: Roservay as you also have. I think how can we say,

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Speaker 4: I'll give a bit of context. In twenty twenty three,

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Speaker 4: I think this message went out from the CANDF to

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Speaker 4: the forces in Rosova and I was there at the time.

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Speaker 3: So was I really what? Yeah? Yeah, I was stared

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Speaker 3: to say. We were there. We were both there at

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Speaker 3: the same time. Everyone started hitting me up for book recommendations.

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Speaker 3: It's like October, I didn't know that. Yeah, okay, right

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Speaker 3: off Joctoba seventh, I think.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 4: Anyways, so yeah, when this came out, like some friends

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Speaker 4: sent this to me and was like, hey, can you

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Speaker 4: translate this? And I like, not only me when I

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Speaker 4: saw it, but also all the friends in the leadership

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Speaker 4: and you know, all of the comrades there were like

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Speaker 4: very one surprised, but also very excited and very happy

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Speaker 4: to kind of see a message like this. And I

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Speaker 4: think also when the message was returned, you know, some

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Speaker 4: of the friends from the leadership, you know, recorded this

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Speaker 4: video message and sent it back. It was very much

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Speaker 4: like a very pleasant, happy surprise for everyone involved, and

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Speaker 4: it really showed the degree to which fundamentally we are

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Speaker 4: fighting the same struggles, even though you know, maybe you

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Speaker 4: know materially we're not talking about like guns going from

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Speaker 4: one place to the other. Fundamentally were comrades on the

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Speaker 4: same very very very long frontline now I think what

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Speaker 4: that looks like locally, especially, I'm happy that you mentioned,

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Speaker 4: like specifically the women's situation. You know, I myself sometimes

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Speaker 4: when I'm giving training here, I like to show videos

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Speaker 4: from certain parts of Kurdistan where they're very effective, we

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Speaker 4: can say, And of course that naturally includes like the

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Speaker 4: very very heavy participation of the women's guerrilla units as

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Speaker 4: well as the men's guerrilla units, and specifically here and

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Speaker 4: me andmar we see a very difficult situation in the

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Speaker 4: revolution in regards to like the position of women, where

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Speaker 4: because of I mean, it's a very new revolution. Lots

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Speaker 4: of these people are you know, a couple of years ago,

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Speaker 4: they were just in we can say liberal society. They

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Speaker 4: weren't in any kind of you know, maybe at best

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Speaker 4: activist context. But it's not like these people had a

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Speaker 4: strong revolutionary platform and then they said, okay, let's launch

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Speaker 4: a revolution against the dictatorship. It was a natural evolution

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Speaker 4: from protest to resistance to revolution. No, So because of that,

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Speaker 4: the same social structures that existed in liberal society were

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Speaker 4: in a large part transplanted into resistance organizations, which means

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Speaker 4: that yeah, of course, thousands and thousands of women from

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Speaker 4: all over the country, have traveled to these camps, you know,

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Speaker 4: have prepared and have ready themselves to fight against the dictatorship.

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Speaker 4: But in a lot of ways they're still facing off against,

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Speaker 4: you know, the patriarchy that is inherent in all of

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Speaker 4: our modern society. Yeah, so I think Rajaba into much

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Speaker 4: as like I think anybody can take Rajava as an inspiration.

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Speaker 4: If there is anybody who, more so than anybody else,

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Speaker 4: can take as an inspiration, it is women and youth.

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Speaker 4: As that is, of course, like the revolutionary focus of

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Speaker 4: the entire paradigm of the Rajava revolution. So I won't

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Speaker 4: say that it's like, you know, like the leading inspiration

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Speaker 4: for the people of me and mar or something, but

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Speaker 4: definitely the people who have interacted with it or interfaced

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Speaker 4: with it in some capacity, be it official or unofficial,

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Speaker 4: of course, have gotten a lot of inspiration from that.

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Speaker 4: And us as internationalists, both me as well as some

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Speaker 4: other people here, you know, having had that in person

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Speaker 4: experience with their Java revolution, of course for us as

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Speaker 4: eternal inspiration.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's a really beautiful thing to see, like

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Speaker 3: you said, just to see people like when we think

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Speaker 3: about alliances in conflict, right, if we look at the

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Speaker 3: extremely interactional way that the United States entered into those alliances. Right,

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Speaker 3: it's willing to allow the people of forro Java to

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Speaker 3: die for it in the battle against ISIS, or dash

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Speaker 3: that it's not willing to stand by them when they're

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Speaker 3: being bombed by Turkey. Right, something right, and you and

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Speaker 3: I have both seen, but to see something that is

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Speaker 3: said begins with genuine solidarity and admiration. One thing I

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Speaker 3: really liked was when the K and DF replied to

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Speaker 3: the video that came from Java. They said that they

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Speaker 3: still had a lot to learn, especially with regards to gender,

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Speaker 3: and like it's so rare to see revolutionary movements submitting

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Speaker 3: their faults, especially during the struggle, right during the moment

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Speaker 3: of revolution. And that's something that I've been so pressed

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Speaker 3: with in Myanmar for a long time, is their willingness

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Speaker 3: to like look out at the world and see things

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Speaker 3: that they think are better and adopt them, or to

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Speaker 3: at least consider them. It's the thing in Jaba too,

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Speaker 3: some of their one of the friends in Rajaba said

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Speaker 3: that they were excited to learn more about Meamma, because

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Speaker 3: they hadn't worked everything out, and that they thought that

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Speaker 3: there might be some solutions that they could learn from there,

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Speaker 3: And so it's really special to see that that solidarity

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Speaker 3: that comes from a very genuine place and not just

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Speaker 3: it's not just rhetorical. There are people such as yourself

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Speaker 3: who have made the journey to fight on behalf of

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Speaker 3: the revolution in me Mma. But it's really a special thing.

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Speaker 3: It's really a wonderful thing to see, especially like with

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Speaker 3: the world seemingly getting more and more isolated and more

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Speaker 3: and more nationalists as supposed to internationalists, Like, it's a

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Speaker 3: really beautiful time for it to happen too.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely, And I think I mean not to make the podcast,

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Speaker 4: you know, a democratic and federalism ideologyism or something, but yeah,

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Speaker 4: I think insofar as the revolution in Rajava considers itself

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Speaker 4: a force on the side of democratic modernity, I think

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Speaker 4: it's important to understand that they really mean it, Like

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Speaker 4: they really do see the conflicts that we're facing today

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Speaker 4: against the capitalist system, against capitalist modernity.

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Speaker 2: They really do.

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Speaker 4: See it in this all encompassing light that even though

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Speaker 4: something is happening all the way over here in me

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Speaker 4: and more and that maybe you could only tangentially connect

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Speaker 4: to what's happening over there, they really do believe it

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Speaker 4: when they say we are comrades in this same struggle.

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Speaker 4: And that's why the solidarity is so beautiful to see,

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Speaker 4: because it's that real solidarity. It's not just like, you know,

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Speaker 4: pandering to some internationalist kind of sentiment.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: No, it's very real and it has its very genuine

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Speaker 3: basis in sharing more than common interests. I will say, so,

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Speaker 3: for people who are not as familiar with the struggle

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Speaker 3: where you are, which is in chin Land, would you

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Speaker 3: explain a little bit of I mean, obviously we can,

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Speaker 3: and we will at some point explain a little bit

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Speaker 3: more of the history of chin Lan. I think it's

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Speaker 3: very important and it sometimes gets marginalized from even narrative

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Speaker 3: of the revolution. But can you explain like the groups

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Speaker 3: and the struggle as it has been since twenty twenty one?

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Speaker 3: In many ways, Chinland is where the revolution, the arm

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Speaker 3: revolution began, right, So can you explain how we get

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Speaker 3: to a place today where in recent weeks we've seen

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Speaker 3: massive victories in Chinland?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: So, as you know, the political situation at least between

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Speaker 4: the groups is somewhat complicated. So I'll try my best

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Speaker 4: to like most fairly, but also somehow accurately described. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: I'll start from the history. We can say, as you

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Speaker 4: described in and around mindhat, at the time of these protests,

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Speaker 4: this was kind of like the catalyst and one of

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Speaker 4: the places that actual armed resistance to this dictatorship started.

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Speaker 4: And that wasn't armed resistance like with guns or something

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Speaker 4: that was armed resistance like with the shotguns like double

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Speaker 4: barrel shotguns from India, muzzle loading traditional hunting rifles and

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Speaker 4: air guns and things like this. Yeah, and with that

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Speaker 4: kind of weaponry, they were going and attacking police stations

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Speaker 4: and checkpoints. So it really was a sign for everyone

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Speaker 4: like not only the bravery of the people that are

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Speaker 4: willing to do something like that, but the willingness and

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Speaker 4: the risk that these people are able to take and

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Speaker 4: the seriousness of their opposition to the dictatorship that look,

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Speaker 4: this isn't just a protest anymore. Even we have only

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Speaker 4: sticks and stones, we will dismantle this dictatorship.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: So, yeah, that was a very inspiring early period. And

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Speaker 4: I think even before the involvement of some of the

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Speaker 4: bigger ethnic armed organizations, there were already local CDFs, which

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Speaker 4: stands for Chinland Defense Force, which is kind of just

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Speaker 4: like PDF. It's a moniker that a lot of groups share.

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Speaker 4: There were a lot of different PDFs and cdf popping

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Speaker 4: up just in the days following the coup in Chinland.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, like from the very beginning there was the

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Speaker 4: precedent in the history of revolution there. Now these towns

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Speaker 4: that were the beginning of the revolution have now been seized.

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Speaker 4: So mind DOT as of last month was taken by

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Speaker 4: the Chin Brotherhood Alliance as well as you know CDF,

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Speaker 4: min DOTT and alliance partners. So the progress has definitely

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Speaker 4: been made. The current landscape looks a little bit like this.

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Speaker 4: In Chin state, there's two big blocks.

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Speaker 2: We can say.

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Speaker 4: One block is the Chin Brotherhood and one block is

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Speaker 4: the Chinland Council. At first there was only one block

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Speaker 4: called the ICNCC, which sends for Interim Chin National Coordinating

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Speaker 4: Council or committee. I always forget the last ceime, and

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Speaker 4: that was like the political big umbrella organization. And there

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Speaker 4: was the CJDC, which is the military big umbrella organization

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Speaker 4: that sends for chin Land Joint Defense Council or Committee.

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Speaker 4: Again last see always in big us. So yeah, for

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Speaker 4: a long time it was everyone including one of the

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Speaker 4: you know, very old ethnic resistance organizations, the CNACNF, the

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Speaker 4: Chin National Army, Chin National Front was kind of involved

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Speaker 4: in this one big umbrella organization and everywhere there was

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Speaker 4: resistance against the dictatorship and on some level cooperation both

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Speaker 4: with Chin groups as well as with the enug In

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Speaker 4: twenty twenty three, political events occurred and as we can

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Speaker 4: say politely, a disagreement in the political future of Chinland

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Speaker 4: separated into two groups, with CNACNF withdrawing from the CJDC

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Speaker 4: and forming their Chinlen Council, and the groups that kind

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Speaker 4: of subscribed to that vision and subscribed to that path

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Speaker 4: they joined the new Chinlen Council and all of the

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Speaker 4: groups that remained in the CJDC in the ICNCC continued

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Speaker 4: to hold on to the ICNCC as a kind of

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Speaker 4: platform and umbrella organization for the people in Chin State

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Speaker 4: that didn't want subscribed to this new path. And then

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Speaker 4: Chin Brotherhood was formed as the new practical military alliance

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Speaker 4: of those people who remained, we can say, and since then,

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Speaker 4: in only one year, I mean, both sides have have

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Speaker 4: had very incredible victories. No Chin Then Council has been

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Speaker 4: able to in the north of Chin State liberate Chika

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Speaker 4: and Tunzongtown, and then of course in the south of

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Speaker 4: Chin State, Chinbler has been able to take Matupe and

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Speaker 4: Contellette and Mindat. So definitely victories all around. But yeah,

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Speaker 4: I'll stop myself before I comment to much more on that. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: but victories, it would have been unimaginable.

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Speaker 3: Three years. I mean, we're almost exactly three years from

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Speaker 3: the beginning of the revolution. Four years guy, yeah, twenty

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Speaker 3: twenty five, god, yeah, yeah, four years from the beginning

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Speaker 3: of the revolution. When, as you say, like those videos,

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Speaker 3: that was when I first became aware of the post

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Speaker 3: coup resistance, was seeing videos online of people with those

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Speaker 3: traditional muzzle loading hunting rifles but taking on police checkpoints

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Speaker 3: or attempted to organize the armed resistance and those little

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Speaker 3: air guns with the made of the blue plumbing pipe

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Speaker 3: like they It was incredible. It's the bravery of the

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Speaker 3: people and their commitment and their willingness to risk their

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Speaker 3: lives and sometimes lose their lives because like as one

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Speaker 3: revolutionary doctor told me a few years ago, he said, like,

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Speaker 3: my grandparents died for democracy, and my parents' generation died

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Speaker 3: for it, and we don't think another generation should have

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Speaker 3: to die for it, so like we're all prepared to

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Speaker 3: go down fighting for this, which I thought, you know,

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Speaker 3: was really impactful. And then he was right that their

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Speaker 3: willingness to risk their lives and to be so brave

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Speaker 3: is unparalleled. And the revolution wouldn't have got to where

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Speaker 3: it's got to. But it's such a beautiful thing that

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Speaker 3: it has. I wonder, like it's a crucial time for

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Speaker 3: the revolution now, right, Like the revolution is as successful

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Speaker 3: as ever been, we're reaching the fifth year. Can you explain,

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Speaker 3: like the role of the AIF within the broader revolution,

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Speaker 3: because I think people get really confused by all the acronyms,

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Speaker 3: and it can be easy to think that these groups

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Speaker 3: and it's an alphabet stup right, I'm writing a book

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Speaker 3: about this and Spain, and like I've spent most of

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Speaker 3: the last week just trying to write the dictionary of

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Speaker 3: acronyms that goes in the back of the book. But like,

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Speaker 3: can you explain if these aren't groups sort are necessarily

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Speaker 3: sometimes they are opposed to each other, they have different

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Speaker 3: visions for the future. But can you explain the role

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Speaker 3: of the af within the broad anti hunter movement?

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Speaker 4: Sure, first I'll say I'm reading a book right now

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Speaker 4: about like the history of the Communist Party of Burma,

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Speaker 4: and that history goes from like, you know, the thirties

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Speaker 4: all the way to the nineties, and every single page

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Speaker 4: has at least ten different acronyms, and it's absolutely insane.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 4: About the AIF, the Anti Fascist Internationalist Front, which I'm

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Speaker 4: hoping everyone just recognizes as AIF because it's kind of

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Speaker 4: a mouthful. Our perspective so far has been that, especially

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Speaker 4: as foreigners, especial as like foreign foreigners, you know, like

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Speaker 4: Western foreigners. Yeah, we really want to avoid as much

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Speaker 4: as possible the perception of we're coming here, you know,

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Speaker 4: we've got military experience, or we've got this knowledge, or

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Speaker 4: we've got that knowledge, and now it's time. Now it's

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Speaker 4: time for us to tell you what to do, or

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Speaker 4: now it's time for us to train or something like that. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: I would say our perspective is much more closer to

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Speaker 4: the perspective of the you know, the international structures in

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Speaker 4: ra Java. Our goal is recognizing that this enemy, the

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Speaker 4: Essays dictatorship, the Essays junta, is fundamentally a fascist, anti

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Speaker 4: human enemy. That makes it also our struggle and so

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Speaker 4: not in some kind of like presumptive way, or not

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Speaker 4: in some kind of like imposing way, but in a

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Speaker 4: very genuine and organic manner. We want to come here

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Speaker 4: and implement ourselves into the revolution. Now, we have some

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Speaker 4: friends who are coming who maybe have previous experience with

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Speaker 4: this or with that, and in their capacity, of course

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Speaker 4: they give training. Because the people here have the comrades,

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Speaker 4: have been overwhelmingly receved to training like this. You know

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Speaker 4: that there's been no pride or no like, oh, we

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Speaker 4: don't need the help.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Quite contrarily, everyone at all stages, even the nug is

401
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Speaker 4: saying I'm not talking about us, I'm just talking about publicly,

402
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Speaker 4: you know, to everyone is saying, whatever help we can get,

403
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Speaker 4: we appreciate it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: But you know, we're not just bringing people who are

406
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Speaker 4: you know, Rajava veterans or veterans of some conflict where

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Speaker 4: they can come and give training. Fundamentally, it's an anti

408
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Speaker 4: fascist conflict, which means even people without experience are able

409
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Speaker 4: to come and not only participate in the revolution, but

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Speaker 4: in a less transactory way, not to say like, oh

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Speaker 4: I have something and I will give it to the revolution,

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Speaker 4: And the most important way is to come and to

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Speaker 4: learn from the revolution exactly as you said. Even a

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Speaker 4: revolution like Rojava, which has decades and decades of history

415
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Speaker 4: and tradition and culture and ideology and is steeped in

416
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Speaker 4: this Yeah, I would say, you know, one of the

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Speaker 4: most powerful, prominent revolutions of our time. Yeah, is still

418
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Speaker 4: able to say a revolution like this, of course we

419
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Speaker 4: can learn from it. We need to learn from the

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Speaker 4: struggles of our comrades there to learn from the developments

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Speaker 4: happening in this revolution. Our perspective in AIF is very

422
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Speaker 4: much the same where yeah, okay, maybe we have some

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00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:11,040
Speaker 4: limited material things we can contribute, but ultimately it's about

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Speaker 4: organically participating in this revolution which is against fascism, and

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Speaker 4: in our own ways, to take the lessons of this revolution,

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Speaker 4: to take the fundamental meaning of this revolution and be

427
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Speaker 4: able to translate it for ourselves and for of course

428
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Speaker 4: the future works.

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Speaker 2: Which are ahead of us. Shall we say, Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I remember when this much much younger talking to veteran

431
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Speaker 3: of the International Group, an anarchist veteran, No, it's from

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Speaker 3: the International Brigade, to correct myself, and I asked him

433
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Speaker 3: to explain anti fascism to me, and he said that

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Speaker 3: for him, like when someone devalues humanity like the hunter

435
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Speaker 3: does in Francoist did in Spain, right, liked did in Syria,

436
00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:58,280
Speaker 3: it debases his own humanity, and like anyone who attacks

437
00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:01,679
Speaker 3: humanity in that way is at him and all humanity,

438
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:06,280
Speaker 3: And therefore it's the responsibility of all humanity to defend humanity,

439
00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:08,280
Speaker 3: to defend compassion in kindness.

440
00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:09,120
Speaker 2: Absolutely.

441
00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:12,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think what you're doing in Myanmar is part

442
00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:16,399
Speaker 3: of that desire to defend humanity against inhumanity, against whatever

443
00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:20,359
Speaker 3: we want to call it. What are the struggles that

444
00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:23,600
Speaker 3: the revolution faces? Like, I know you guys have recently

445
00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:27,520
Speaker 3: been doing a fundraising campaign, for example, and the revolution

446
00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:32,680
Speaker 3: is almost unique in its complete lack of solidarity from

447
00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:36,560
Speaker 3: the states of the world. Right, there is not a

448
00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:40,800
Speaker 3: state that is backing this revolution. It is entirely the

449
00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:43,399
Speaker 3: force of the people of meanbar. So can you explain

450
00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:46,600
Speaker 3: some of the struggles within the revolution? Perhaps because of that?

451
00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:49,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, as much as some people you know,

452
00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:55,600
Speaker 4: like to say CIA or something like this, of course,

453
00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:58,080
Speaker 4: the reality is that, you know, I've heard the term

454
00:23:58,200 --> 00:23:59,400
Speaker 4: crowdfunded revolution.

455
00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:01,040
Speaker 2: I think it's incredibly accurate.

456
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:03,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, because no, in the af we recently did a

457
00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:06,439
Speaker 4: fundraiser for vehicles and equipment and things like this. But

458
00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:09,560
Speaker 4: that's on our scale. On the scale of these organizations,

459
00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:12,080
Speaker 4: I mean, they are fundraising from the diaspora millions and

460
00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:14,760
Speaker 4: millions of dollars to be able to wage this resistance.

461
00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:18,960
Speaker 4: And of course even like local people who themselves maybe

462
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,840
Speaker 4: don't have a lot are giving everything they can or

463
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:24,919
Speaker 4: or anyway acting any way they can, or doing anything

464
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:27,400
Speaker 4: they can to help the revolution. So we can say

465
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:31,359
Speaker 4: overwhelmingly it is a popular resistance, even I would go

466
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:33,399
Speaker 4: so far as to say it is fundamentally a people's

467
00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:36,760
Speaker 4: resistance against the dictatorship. That of course represents itself in

468
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:40,520
Speaker 4: a lot of different organizations. But these organizations enjoy the

469
00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:44,159
Speaker 4: like ninety five percent support of the people against the junta,

470
00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:47,840
Speaker 4: you know. Yeah, so yeah, in that regard, the challenge,

471
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:52,119
Speaker 4: of course is always resources and always the strength of

472
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:56,320
Speaker 4: the enemy. No, we're still going up against jet fighters, helicopters, mortars, artillery. Yeah,

473
00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:58,560
Speaker 4: you know, they have a lot of AMMO, us not

474
00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:02,680
Speaker 4: so much. So there's like lots of these practical problems,

475
00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:07,760
Speaker 4: I think, how can we say, cynical kind of As

476
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,720
Speaker 4: you mentioned earlier, Western outlook has been to paint this

477
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:13,520
Speaker 4: struggle kind of in Oh, it's a tribal struggle. There's

478
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:16,200
Speaker 4: all these different groups, they're all fighting for their own area.

479
00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:19,160
Speaker 4: What's going to happen after they win? Now, I disagree

480
00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:21,600
Speaker 4: with that assessment obviously. I think you know yourself as

481
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:24,119
Speaker 4: you're familiar with the conflict. I think it's much deeper

482
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:29,080
Speaker 4: than that. And even across these many different identities and cultures,

483
00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:32,800
Speaker 4: there's very deep, very real coordination and cooperation where I

484
00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:35,960
Speaker 4: don't think it's just like chaotic. But on the other hand,

485
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:39,520
Speaker 4: that is a you know, not to give the cynics credit.

486
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:42,639
Speaker 4: That is a question which going forward will politically very

487
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:44,639
Speaker 4: much be on the agenta because I mean, now, as

488
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:47,080
Speaker 4: you're seeing, most of the country is no longer in

489
00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:49,639
Speaker 4: the junta's control, and the parts that are in the

490
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:52,960
Speaker 4: junta's control are contested, and then you have the tiny

491
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:56,439
Speaker 4: sliver of land which they can say they somehow without

492
00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:59,960
Speaker 4: any kind of you know, contestion control. So very soon

493
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:04,840
Speaker 4: the onus will be on revolutionary forces to answer that question, Okay,

494
00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:07,640
Speaker 4: how are we going to consolidate? How are we going

495
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:10,800
Speaker 4: to transfer these winds on the battlefield into something that

496
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:13,960
Speaker 4: is more permanent and more lasting. And I think you

497
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:16,480
Speaker 4: know already as you're seeing in Chinn State that I

498
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:19,840
Speaker 4: can speak of and that people are seeing and elsewhere

499
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:22,120
Speaker 4: that I can't speak of because I don't know. There

500
00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:24,119
Speaker 4: are definitely frictions. You know, I'm not going to say

501
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:27,359
Speaker 4: it's perfect. Everyone is smiling, everyone is working together, and

502
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:30,040
Speaker 4: there's frictions that will have to be worked through. But fundamentally,

503
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:33,800
Speaker 4: I think the trajectory as it currently is is positive

504
00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:34,560
Speaker 4: for the resistance.

505
00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:36,440
Speaker 2: We can say, yeah, definitely.

506
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:40,080
Speaker 3: I was talking to someone yesterday in another part of

507
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:43,119
Speaker 3: me Imma, and I was saying, you know, I'm going

508
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 3: to come visit you, hopefully soon, and he was saying, like, oh,

509
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:49,440
Speaker 3: you'll have it. Like just to be in the liberated

510
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:53,159
Speaker 3: zone is so special. Talk to us about like liberated

511
00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:56,760
Speaker 3: chin Land, right min Dat's just been liberated. Large areas

512
00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:00,000
Speaker 3: have been under the control of semi control of addictive

513
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:03,360
Speaker 3: satorial regime that has been extremely oppressive to the Chin

514
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:07,360
Speaker 3: people for decades. Like how are people receiving their liberty?

515
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:12,640
Speaker 3: How are they governing themselves or tempting to take care

516
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:14,560
Speaker 3: of one another in these liberated spaces?

517
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:15,199
Speaker 2: Sure?

518
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:18,240
Speaker 4: Well, I think the first thing I'll say is maybe

519
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:20,800
Speaker 4: to contrast to other parts of Meanwhile, we've been relatively

520
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:23,760
Speaker 4: lucky in Chinn State, and that even you know, for

521
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:27,240
Speaker 4: some years already the junta, due to the mountainous nature

522
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:30,800
Speaker 4: of Chin State, has anyway been reduced to the cities

523
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 4: for years. Like all of their checkpoints, all of their

524
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:36,000
Speaker 4: like external places, the last of those were cleared in

525
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:38,000
Speaker 4: twenty twenty three, and most of them anyway in twenty

526
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:42,240
Speaker 4: twenty two were gone, so by land mass. Even before

527
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:45,400
Speaker 4: these towns were seized, the junta controlled if you were

528
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:47,600
Speaker 4: to add up all of the area that they actually

529
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:50,959
Speaker 4: physically control in Chin State, maybe a couple square kilometers,

530
00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:53,000
Speaker 4: you know, just the area of like their bases and

531
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:53,640
Speaker 4: something like that.

532
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:53,840
Speaker 3: Ye.

533
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 4: So because of the nature of Chin State, they never

534
00:27:56,800 --> 00:28:00,840
Speaker 4: had the of course they did these atrousts and massacres

535
00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:03,040
Speaker 4: and things like this, but on the kind of like

536
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:07,560
Speaker 4: you know, fascist dictatorship level of oppression. Since after the revolution,

537
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:11,479
Speaker 4: they had not really had the opportunity to impose themselves

538
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:13,240
Speaker 4: too much. They were the ones kind of cowering in

539
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:17,160
Speaker 4: their corner. Yeah, but I think especially after these towns

540
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:19,800
Speaker 4: are being seized. Now you know, take Ricodar, which is

541
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:22,119
Speaker 4: the border town on India, or take mind Otom or Tupi.

542
00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:24,800
Speaker 4: These towns that have just been recently seized, these are

543
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:28,800
Speaker 4: towns which people are wanting to live their lives. I mean,

544
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:31,720
Speaker 4: Chin State has always been autonomous, even in British rule,

545
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 4: in colonial rule, it was just labeled as unadministered, you know,

546
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:39,400
Speaker 4: and there was a very rich democratic tradition or how

547
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:41,640
Speaker 4: can we say, maybe not democratic in the traditional sense,

548
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:44,680
Speaker 4: but tradition of self rule and autonomy in Chin State,

549
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:47,160
Speaker 4: and the removal of the junta from these areas is

550
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:50,280
Speaker 4: allowing those relationships to much more naturally flourish. And I

551
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:53,520
Speaker 4: think the aspiration of a lot of people both abroad

552
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:56,400
Speaker 4: as well as internally displaced from Chin State is to

553
00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:59,600
Speaker 4: return to those places where there's been fighting and to

554
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 4: continue their lives as normal. Which I think finally now

555
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:05,400
Speaker 4: that not just in Gen State, but all over the country,

556
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 4: we're slowly seeing these alternative systems of you know, let's

557
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:11,880
Speaker 4: not call them like communist or revolutionary or anything, but

558
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:15,600
Speaker 4: fundamentally they are alternative to the state administration system.

559
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:20,080
Speaker 3: Yeah. And I think that narrative that you pushed back

560
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:22,400
Speaker 3: on already, that like, and we've seen it from so

561
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:26,520
Speaker 3: many every think tank, every analyst ever every so called

562
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:29,920
Speaker 3: expert has said the Eros will only fight for their territory.

563
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 3: When they've reached the limits of what they consider to

564
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:35,280
Speaker 3: be their like ethnic homeland, they will stop. And that

565
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:40,360
Speaker 3: hasn't happened, right, It's not happened anywhere. But the fact

566
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:43,800
Speaker 3: that even if it did, right, or even if some

567
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:46,400
Speaker 3: of these Eros have visions for the future which is

568
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:49,440
Speaker 3: not as liberatory as maybe you and I would like

569
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 3: the fact that there are parts of Bamma that are

570
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:54,840
Speaker 3: free now and that where people can live their lives

571
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:59,000
Speaker 3: as they wish will never change, and that will mean

572
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:02,240
Speaker 3: that those places are always there for people to go to.

573
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:04,960
Speaker 3: And like, I'm sure lots of people you're fighting with

574
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:08,200
Speaker 3: and alongside have come to Chinland, right like, like not

575
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 3: all of them will be would have spent their whole lives,

576
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:13,600
Speaker 3: yet they they'll have come there from. But my majority

577
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:14,920
Speaker 3: cities maybe is that correct?

578
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:19,000
Speaker 4: Look like not to give any specifics, so I'll just

579
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:22,360
Speaker 4: make a very broad term to exaggerate the fact. You

580
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:26,240
Speaker 4: can say that I have met somebody from almost every

581
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:29,040
Speaker 4: single group in me a mark in Chinn State. Yeah,

582
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:31,320
Speaker 4: Now that's just to say that's not to like, you know,

583
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 4: be shocking or something that's just to highlight the level

584
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 4: of interconnectedness logistically, materially, militarily, you know, even if it's

585
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:40,920
Speaker 4: just someone sending someone to say.

586
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 2: Hi from somewhere. You know.

587
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's not like, oh, everyone's in their corners fighting.

588
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:47,640
Speaker 4: I mean, I promise you there are soldiers here which

589
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:49,520
Speaker 4: are giving their lives for the towns in Chin State,

590
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:52,680
Speaker 4: which maybe they never even thought about Chinn State before

591
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:53,240
Speaker 4: this revolution.

592
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:56,240
Speaker 2: You know, they're coming from opposite sides of the country. Yeah.

593
00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:59,120
Speaker 4: Absolutely, it's fundamentally a fight against the dictatorship. It's not

594
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:01,719
Speaker 4: the fight to liberate Inland or to liberate Kadeni or

595
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:02,440
Speaker 4: something like this.

596
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:06,160
Speaker 3: Yeah. I remember speaking to mandal a PDF a while

597
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 3: ago and they were saying to me, like they were

598
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:11,560
Speaker 3: really scared when they first left the cities because they've

599
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:13,760
Speaker 3: been told that like wild people lived in the mountains.

600
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:17,600
Speaker 3: Yeah at that now we're wild people, we like the

601
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:21,080
Speaker 3: wild people like. But yeah, this this narrative, I mean,

602
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:23,479
Speaker 3: James C. Scott talks about this right in the Art

603
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 3: of not being governed, this idea that these mountains were

604
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:28,760
Speaker 3: never really places that are amenable to state control, and

605
00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:30,320
Speaker 3: that now there are places where people can go to

606
00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:33,800
Speaker 3: avoid it. But it's also important that this revolution extends

607
00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:35,840
Speaker 3: beyond the mountains and into the cities, and that people

608
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:37,800
Speaker 3: are living there don't have to live under the bootheel

609
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:41,000
Speaker 3: of a dictatorial state, which is which is what's happening right.

610
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:53,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, people will.

611
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 3: Be listening to this, I'm sure and like thinking this

612
00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:00,960
Speaker 3: is laudable, this is incredible, and a they'll be shocked

613
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 3: that they haven't heard about this, maybe, especially if the

614
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:05,600
Speaker 3: newer listeners. And I do want to say that, like

615
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:07,800
Speaker 3: you can go back and listen to our other coverage

616
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 3: on MEMA. There is a lot. But like in terms

617
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:14,920
Speaker 3: of conflicts, right, conflict is always messy and war is

618
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 3: never inherently a beautiful thing. Beautiful things can happen, it was,

619
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:22,800
Speaker 3: but we rarely see wars where there is so much

620
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:24,720
Speaker 3: good on one side and so much evil on the other.

621
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 3: And why do you think that the especially the Western

622
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:31,120
Speaker 3: media has largely overlooked the conflict in Mema.

623
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:32,600
Speaker 2: It's a good question.

624
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:37,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, I will say, just on a very base level,

625
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:39,480
Speaker 4: without getting into any kind of like you know, pondering

626
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:41,840
Speaker 4: or something like that. I've spoken with a few journalists

627
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:45,240
Speaker 4: and you know, before anything, before we even talk about

628
00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 4: politics or something. There is just the material calculation that

629
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:50,960
Speaker 4: these outlets are making. From what I understand from what

630
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:53,840
Speaker 4: I have heard, people don't care. Now that's really unfortunate.

631
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:57,080
Speaker 4: But like these like big networks, you know, CNN, whatever, Yeah,

632
00:32:57,160 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 4: I have to make the calculation of the people they

633
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 4: send and the risk to send them, and the actual

634
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 4: exposure that these news articles will get. From what I

635
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 4: understand conversations that I've had with some people that are

636
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:10,040
Speaker 4: you know, involved in these networks right now, there is

637
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:12,960
Speaker 4: not on like the executive board level. There's just not

638
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 4: a lot of push to cover me in market and

639
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:18,840
Speaker 4: that's you know, that's really unfortunate. And I think one

640
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 4: really bad side effect of that is whenever there's a tragedy,

641
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:25,120
Speaker 4: the media is there. Yeah, you know, like whenever there's

642
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:29,280
Speaker 4: some massacre, or whenever there's some you know, intertribal conflict,

643
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:31,920
Speaker 4: or whenever there's something bad to report about, or maybe

644
00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 4: you know, on a good day, they're really big, like

645
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:37,680
Speaker 4: a win like in last year that we saw you know, yeah, okay, yeah,

646
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:39,760
Speaker 4: for these big things that Western media will be there.

647
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:42,760
Speaker 4: But I think even from recording these very like click

648
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:45,640
Speaker 4: baity eye catching things, it seems like they're not getting

649
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:48,360
Speaker 4: the exposure that they want to get out of this content,

650
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 4: which is putting them off of covering the you know,

651
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:55,560
Speaker 4: in our opinion, much more meaningful wall to wall content

652
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:58,040
Speaker 4: that exists, I mean every day in me and Mark. Yeah,

653
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:01,080
Speaker 4: it seems like this Western eye is only interested in

654
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:04,479
Speaker 4: the suffering, we can say, which is really unfortunate. But

655
00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:07,040
Speaker 4: you know, even if the media is not paying attention,

656
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:09,640
Speaker 4: we can say, for better or worse, the governments are

657
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:13,040
Speaker 4: paying attention absolutely, I mean almost like hawks.

658
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 2: You can say.

659
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:17,320
Speaker 4: There are every single regional government as well as foreign

660
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:20,200
Speaker 4: governments of course, keeping a very close eye on the situation,

661
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:23,319
Speaker 4: circling looking at developments, I mean China especially no being

662
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:24,240
Speaker 4: being very.

663
00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:25,080
Speaker 2: Involved in the process.

664
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:29,000
Speaker 4: Yeah so yeah, Well, unfortunately the kind of liberal media

665
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:31,840
Speaker 4: I is not so much you know, giving me and

666
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:34,160
Speaker 4: more of the coverage that it deserves. As a popular revolution,

667
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 4: the powers at b are definitely watching its progression, we

668
00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:38,840
Speaker 4: can say.

669
00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:41,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean it offers an alternative for

670
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:43,960
Speaker 3: the world that like it's distinct even from a java,

671
00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:47,759
Speaker 3: like the building of a revolutionary movement, like you said,

672
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:50,359
Speaker 3: the crowdfunded revolution, the revolution that like.

673
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:52,480
Speaker 2: Entirely.

674
00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:55,480
Speaker 3: I mean at points armed itself using gums, it downloaded

675
00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:59,880
Speaker 3: off the internet. You know, it offers sometimes I think

676
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:03,200
Speaker 3: when I'm thinking about, you know, my background in studying

677
00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:06,319
Speaker 3: anarchists in Spain, and like obviously I've looked a lot

678
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:08,279
Speaker 3: at the past, but it gives me a vision of

679
00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:13,040
Speaker 3: the future, Like and it's only in covering the small

680
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:16,920
Speaker 3: parts of the revolution that make it truly a revolution

681
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:19,520
Speaker 3: that we can see that. Like you have an Instagram

682
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:23,160
Speaker 3: and on there you're posting about training sometimes when you're

683
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:25,160
Speaker 3: doing the trainings and there are women who are coming

684
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:28,000
Speaker 3: to train, you know, with rifles to be I was

685
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:31,000
Speaker 3: gonna say, Marx, Marx people, I guess like the people.

686
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:35,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, only US military guys are weird about calling

687
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:35,840
Speaker 4: things snipers.

688
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:36,720
Speaker 2: Yeah there's snipers.

689
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:41,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, yeah, let's do that, Okay. In the moment

690
00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:44,920
Speaker 3: that that they receive that training and become like efficient

691
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:48,840
Speaker 3: with their weapons, like a revolution happens for that woman.

692
00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:53,759
Speaker 3: And it's only through like following those those little revolutions

693
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:55,840
Speaker 3: that happen every day that make up a big revolution

694
00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:58,520
Speaker 3: that we truly understand it. And I'm sure that's something

695
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:03,040
Speaker 3: that like you're seeing on a daily or weekly basis, right,

696
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:07,880
Speaker 3: like people's world's opening up and their horizons changing because

697
00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 3: of a revolution.

698
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:12,040
Speaker 4: Well, listen absolutely now, of course, you know, as as

699
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:15,680
Speaker 4: leftists involved or interested in this revolution studying it, whether

700
00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:17,840
Speaker 4: you're a socialist, whether you're anarchists, whether you're a communist,

701
00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:19,960
Speaker 4: whether you're oppilist. You know, however you like to describe

702
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:24,680
Speaker 4: yourself whatever flavor you are, you know, without pontificating too much.

703
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 4: I think fundamentally this revolution is a symbol of hope

704
00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 4: that it can be done. No, Like, I'll give an

705
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:34,880
Speaker 4: example from the conversations that I've had with the comrades

706
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:36,719
Speaker 4: that have been involved in this revolution since it was

707
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:39,399
Speaker 4: just a protest movement in the streets. Ye, one thing

708
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:41,760
Speaker 4: that I've heard a lot is that at the beginning

709
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:43,719
Speaker 4: of the revolution, when it switched, you know, when the

710
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:45,640
Speaker 4: police were fine blows into the crowds, and when people

711
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:48,360
Speaker 4: made this decision that okay, now we have no choice

712
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:50,640
Speaker 4: but armed resistance, We have no choice but to fight

713
00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:54,760
Speaker 4: the dictatorship. When that calculus was made, When that decision

714
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:58,799
Speaker 4: was made, it was not made based on the kind

715
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:02,840
Speaker 4: of analysis of the situation that they could even win. Yeah,

716
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:05,120
Speaker 4: it was not even like, Okay, we're going to do

717
00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:08,160
Speaker 4: this and we have this strategy of guerrilla war, and

718
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:09,879
Speaker 4: then we'll do this, this and this, and then we'll

719
00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:12,719
Speaker 4: achieve the victory. The calculation that was made was a

720
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:16,560
Speaker 4: moral calculation. It was saying, we have the choice. We

721
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:19,080
Speaker 4: can go back to our life. We can accept this suppression,

722
00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:21,040
Speaker 4: we can give up this struggle for democracy that we've

723
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:23,600
Speaker 4: been waging in one form or another, or we can

724
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 4: make the decision to fight even if we won't win.

725
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:30,000
Speaker 4: It's the moral imperative to resist dictatorship. And I think

726
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:32,840
Speaker 4: what this revolution is showing not just for the people

727
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:37,880
Speaker 4: who themselves were surprised at their capability and were themselves

728
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:40,880
Speaker 4: surprised at what they could accomplish when they actually stepped

729
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:44,840
Speaker 4: up and fought and sacrificed for revolution. Fundamentally, it's a

730
00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:47,640
Speaker 4: message to everyone. It says, Look, these people at the

731
00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:50,080
Speaker 4: beginning were going at checkpoints with like double barrels and

732
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:52,960
Speaker 4: air rifles, and at the end now they are like

733
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:56,920
Speaker 4: threatening to overthrow what was previously assumed to be one

734
00:37:56,960 --> 00:37:59,799
Speaker 4: of the most powerful militaries in Southeastern Asia. I mean,

735
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:01,839
Speaker 4: like everyone jokes on the top of Dow because they're

736
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:05,640
Speaker 4: obviously garbage now, but like at the time, that wasn't

737
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:07,759
Speaker 4: That wasn't the analysis. You know, it would be the

738
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:09,520
Speaker 4: same as saying like, oh, you know, we're going to

739
00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:12,480
Speaker 4: overthrow the USA or something like that. It was fundamentally

740
00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:17,680
Speaker 4: people didn't even envision the victory, but on the moral

741
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:21,520
Speaker 4: principle to resist, they've resisted, and from that moral position

742
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:24,799
Speaker 4: they were able to materialize the victory that they had

743
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:26,320
Speaker 4: previously not even imagined.

744
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:29,040
Speaker 2: So, you know, for me, that's what I take away.

745
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:31,320
Speaker 4: There's no books, there's no ideological books here that you

746
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:35,000
Speaker 4: can study and understand the underpinnings of the revolution. You know,

747
00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:37,319
Speaker 4: there's no classes that you can go to that the

748
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:40,919
Speaker 4: PDF teaches you about what their revolutionary paradigm is. Fundamentally,

749
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:43,680
Speaker 4: it's a fight of the people against oppression and against dictatorship.

750
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:46,759
Speaker 4: And while of course there's some strengths and some weaknesses

751
00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:49,600
Speaker 4: that we face in the revolution, ultimately, in the same

752
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:51,800
Speaker 4: way as Rajaba, in the same place as other places

753
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:55,360
Speaker 4: in the world, it's a beacon of hope for democratic

754
00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:59,040
Speaker 4: people who envision themselves fighting on the side of freedom

755
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:01,759
Speaker 4: that actually, yeah, you can win.

756
00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:05,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's given me so much hope like at a

757
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:07,760
Speaker 3: time the last few years when we've all desperately needed

758
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:10,239
Speaker 3: something good to happen. Like something good is happening in

759
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:15,000
Speaker 3: it incredibly good through them. Yeah, Like it's breathtaking. Like

760
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:17,919
Speaker 3: I went in twenty twenty two during the first year

761
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:20,800
Speaker 3: of the revolution, and I was shopping around this story

762
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:23,200
Speaker 3: for months, right. I knew these guys who were doing

763
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:26,560
Speaker 3: the three D printing, and I went to every major outlet.

764
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:28,360
Speaker 3: I was like, this is the story that's going to

765
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:31,320
Speaker 3: make people care, and no one bought it until eventually

766
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:34,399
Speaker 3: Cool Zone did and here I am. But like even

767
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:36,680
Speaker 3: twenty twenty one, twenty two, talking to those guys, I

768
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:39,839
Speaker 3: was like, they might all die. It's still been worth

769
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:42,040
Speaker 3: it for them, but they might all be gone in

770
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:45,400
Speaker 3: a year. Unfortunately familiar with that from my line of work,

771
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:49,560
Speaker 3: but like to see it succeed, it's so like incredible.

772
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:53,600
Speaker 3: It's obviously war is terrible, and terrible things have happened

773
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:55,879
Speaker 3: in the war, but like it's such a beautiful thing

774
00:39:55,960 --> 00:40:00,680
Speaker 3: to see people refuse to accept tyranny and just through

775
00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 3: the tenacity of their refusal to create liberated spaces and

776
00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:08,160
Speaker 3: to now threaten to topple Like you say one of

777
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:10,960
Speaker 3: what had previously been a feared army in the region.

778
00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:14,400
Speaker 3: Like it continues to amaze me every day, every every

779
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:17,600
Speaker 3: time I see people dancing in front of a captured

780
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:21,879
Speaker 3: military headquarters or I don't. It's just such a such

781
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:26,080
Speaker 3: a remarkable revolution. Is that if people wish to be

782
00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:30,080
Speaker 3: in solidarity, if they wish to follow the AIF, if

783
00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:32,960
Speaker 3: they want to learn more about the af where can

784
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:35,920
Speaker 3: they do that at their places online? Or are there

785
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:38,520
Speaker 3: ways that they can support you aside from obviously like

786
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:41,120
Speaker 3: being part of the struggle, Like how can they help you?

787
00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:41,719
Speaker 2: Yeah?

788
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:45,520
Speaker 4: Me personally, My information platform is mostly on Instagram, where

789
00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:48,560
Speaker 4: I post updates about you know, either insights about what's

790
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:50,920
Speaker 4: going on or news updates or something like that. And

791
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:54,080
Speaker 4: that's Azad underscore AFA on Instagraram.

792
00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:55,920
Speaker 3: Spell out Azade for the non courtage speakers.

793
00:40:56,320 --> 00:41:00,439
Speaker 4: A Zad a z A d if you will yep

794
00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:05,400
Speaker 4: Thanky underscore AFA on Instagram. The AIF also has an

795
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:08,239
Speaker 4: Instagram for like official posts, it's AIF me and more

796
00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:12,040
Speaker 4: in general about the AIF, especially at this early stages.

797
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:15,680
Speaker 4: Right now, we're involved in some frontlines in western Meanmar

798
00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:18,480
Speaker 4: and so because of that, we don't really have a

799
00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:21,160
Speaker 4: lot of information presence out right now, but in the

800
00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:23,760
Speaker 4: coming weeks, in the coming months, definitely when things get published,

801
00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:25,839
Speaker 4: when more things like that come out, they will come

802
00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:29,279
Speaker 4: out from kind of the existing distribution circles.

803
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:30,600
Speaker 2: That have been going around, like libcom.

804
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:33,839
Speaker 4: There has been like statements going out as well as Instagram,

805
00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:37,640
Speaker 4: perr things like that. Yeah, and recently we just completed

806
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:40,799
Speaker 4: a fundraiser. Our goal was ten thousand dollars for the

807
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:44,200
Speaker 4: vehicles and the equipment that we will needed to get started. Yeah,

808
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:46,960
Speaker 4: for listeners who don't know, maybe yeah, maybe they're not aware.

809
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:49,680
Speaker 4: This only started in October of last year, so we're

810
00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:54,200
Speaker 4: still in the stages of consolidating and getting our equipment.

811
00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:56,680
Speaker 4: We set the goal for ten thousand dollars and we

812
00:41:56,960 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 4: exceeded it. We raised over thirteen thousand dollars for that,

813
00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:02,480
Speaker 4: So yeah, we're very happy to say that. But in

814
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:04,960
Speaker 4: the future, of course, there will always be more opportunities.

815
00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:08,440
Speaker 4: As you know, revolution is very expensive, so yeah, on

816
00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:12,080
Speaker 4: all fundraising platforms we have PayPal, cash app, and Venmo

817
00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:15,520
Speaker 4: and all of those are aif me and more. And yeah,

818
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:18,160
Speaker 4: in the future, hopefully we will have more news both

819
00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:20,399
Speaker 4: about what's happening in me and more are both how

820
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:25,280
Speaker 4: we specifically are involved, as well as just very exciting

821
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:27,399
Speaker 4: footage we can say we hope to share soon.

822
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:30,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, that'd be great to see, and I hope you'll

823
00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:31,520
Speaker 3: come back and join us again, and maybe we can

824
00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:33,160
Speaker 3: delve into a little bit more of the history of

825
00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:36,520
Speaker 3: the revolution and the revolution in chin Land specifically, because

826
00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:39,359
Speaker 3: I think these are things that we need to cover

827
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:41,759
Speaker 3: more and I'd love to give people a place to

828
00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:44,520
Speaker 3: learn about them. Yeah, absolutely great, Thank you so much.

829
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:49,600
Speaker 1: It could Happen Here is a production or cool Zone Media.

830
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:52,840
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website

831
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:55,480
Speaker 1: pool Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the

832
00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:59,440
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

833
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:01,799
Speaker 1: You can now find sources for It Could Happen here,

834
00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:04,800
Speaker 1: listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.